The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Thursday, November 13, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 73)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:45 a.m., on the 13th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, SEAN CONNELLY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY
MEARNS, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, REID
NEUREITER, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln
Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for
Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Good morning. Are we ready to proceed?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Jury in at 8:45)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning. You'll
recall when we recessed yesterday afternoon, we were hearing
testimony from Mr. Michael Fortier, and we'll continue with his
testimony now.
(Michael Fortier was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: Mr. Fortier, if you'll come in and resume
the witness stand under the oath earlier taken. We might ask
you to lean a little more toward the microphone so that it
picks up your voice a little bit better.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I'll try and speak up louder.
THE COURT: All right. You may resume.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Fortier, when we recessed yesterday afternoon, I was
asking you questions on a trip that you took to a storage
facility in Kingman, Arizona. Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were you out at that storage facility that
evening?
A. I estimate about 15 minutes.
Q. And during the time period that you were there, did you see
any explosives being removed from the unit?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where did you go after that 15 minutes that you were out
there that evening?
A. I returned to my home.
Q. Did you go alone?
A. No. Tim McVeigh went with me.
Q. How did you get home?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. In his car.
Q. Did you see where Mr. Nichols went?
A. No, I did not.
Q. When you left, was Mr. Nichols still at the storage unit?
A. No.
Q. What did you see?
A. To get out -- excuse me -- to get out of the storage unit,
Mr. Nichols had to leave first because his truck was blocking
the way to get out; so he left and drove away, and me and
Mr. McVeigh drove to my house.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh stay with you at your house that evening?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did -- that evening, did Mr. McVeigh show you any other
explosives?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Tell us about that, please.
A. In -- in my front bedroom of my trailer, Tim showed me what
he was calling a Kinepack.
Q. Can you describe it for us.
A. Yes. It's two pieces -- one looking like the shape of a
cigar. It's a plastic container with white powder in it, has
an orange cap on it. The other has the container that looks
like a toothpaste container, and it had red liquid in it.
Q. Did you see one or more than one of those pairs of
Kinepack?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Just one.
Q. Was anyone else present during that time?
A. No.
Q. And Mr. McVeigh stayed at your house in your trailer that
evening?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did you ever see explosives after that evening again?
A. Yes.
Q. When was the next time that you saw explosives?
A. Shortly thereafter.
Q. What do you mean by "shortly thereafter"?
A. Within a couple weeks.
Q. Where did you see it?
A. In front of my house.
Q. What time of the day was it?
A. It was in the morning.
Q. Tell us what happened that morning.
A. There was a knock on my door; and when I opened the door,
Tim McVeigh was standing there. He asked me to come outside,
and I did and I walked to Terry Nichols' truck. Tim opened up
the passenger-side door, and he reached into the truck and he
pulled out a milk jug that was full of -- what he told me it
was was ammonium nitrate, and there was some liquid in it, some
type of fuel.
Q. What did you see inside the milk jug?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. It looked like salt rock. It was white and granular.
Q. Okay. What happened next?
A. Tim told me that he was going to try and -- and ignite
this. And then we walked to the back of the truck where I seen
Terry Nichols getting out of the back of his truck. The
tailgate was down, and the three of us stood in like a little
circle; and Tim reached into a milk crate and pulled out what
he was calling a sausage.
Q. Did you see what -- what it was that Mr. McVeigh pulled
out?
A. Yes.
Q. And where was the milk crate?
A. It was just behind the wheel well of the -- the right side
of the truck.
Q. And when you say "the truck," you're referring to
Mr. Nichols' pickup truck?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened next?
A. Well, Tim told me that he was also going to explode that
out in the desert that day. He told me what you need to do is
make a slit in it and stick a blasting cap into it and it would
explode.
Q. Where was Mr. Nichols when Mr. McVeigh said that to you?
A. He was standing right beside me.
Q. What happened next?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. I told Tim that this looks like a lot of trouble and I
didn't want to go with them, and I returned to my house and
they drove away.
Q. Did you touch the sausage explosive at all that morning?
A. Yes, I did when Tim was speaking to me. I reached over and
gave it a squeeze.
Q. And what did it feel like?
A. It felt spongy on the outside, but it was solid in the
middle.
Q. And where was Mr. McVeigh when you did that?
A. He was standing 2 feet away from me, facing me.
Q. And where was Mr. Nichols when you did that?
A. He was standing just to my left.
Q. About how far away?
A. He was just standing right there. 6 inches, a foot.
Q. So you didn't go out that day with them?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you see Mr. McVeigh later that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a conversation with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh tell you what happened out in the desert?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. In 19 -- in October of 1994, what kind of car did you and
your wife have?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. We drove a Pontiac Grand Am.
Q. And in 1994, did you and your wife purchase a -- a
different car?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What kind of car did you purchase?
A. We purchased a Jeep.
Q. And when did you buy the Jeep?
A. On October 31.
Q. October 31 of '94?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to when you and your wife purchased that Jeep, did
you have any further conversations with Mr. McVeigh about that
storage unit in Kingman, Arizona?
A. Yes.
Q. So I'm talking about either -- before October 31 and after
the evening that you were out there that first evening.
A. Yes.
Q. When was the next conversation during that time period?
A. It was just during that time period. I don't understand
the question.
Q. It was between those two dates, between the first time that
you were out there and October 31?
A. That my wife and I and Tim had a conversation?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. During that same period of time, did Mr. McVeigh ask you to
do anything with respect to the storage unit?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Where did -- where were you when he asked you to do that?
A. In my living room.
Q. Was there anyone else present?
A. No.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh ask you to do?
A. He asked me to do two things, actually, concerning the
storage unit.
Q. What was the first thing that he asked you to do?
A. Watch over it.
Q. Did he give you anything to help you watch over it?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. He had a piece of paper with a combination on it, and he
wrapped the piece of paper -- excuse me -- he wrapped a key in
that piece of paper. And he told me that those were the
combination and the key to get into the storage unit, and he
asked me to watch over it; and he put the key and the piece of
paper on my desk.
Q. What was the second thing that Mr. McVeigh asked you to do
with respect to the storage unit?
A. He asked me to give a message to Mr. Nichols concerning the
storage unit.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. And when was that? When did he ask you to do that?
A. Just prior to October 31.
Q. And where were you when Mr. McVeigh asked you to do that?
A. In my living room.
Q. Tell us about that, please.
A. Tim was planning on leaving the area, and he told me that
Mr. Nichols was coming from Las Vegas and was supposed to meet
him at my house at 4:00. Just after 4:00, Mr. McVeigh got
upset and he was going to leave, and he asked me to give a
message to Mr. Nichols when and if he showed up.
Q. What was the message that Mr. McVeigh asked you to give to
Mr. Nichols?
A. He told me to tell Mr. Nichols that -- to meet him in New
Mexico and to pick up the stuff out of the storage unit. I
asked him what he was talking about, and he said that Terry
would know what to pick up out of the storage unit and -- and
where to meet him.
Q. How long was this conversation?
A. That -- that was it. A minute. 30 seconds. And then Tim
left.
Q. What happened next?
A. About 20 minutes later, Mr. Nichols showed up. He knocked
on my door, and I went out onto my front porch with him. I
gave him the message, and he -- he nodded that he understood
and then he left.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Tell us to the best of your recollection what you said to
Mr. Nichols that day.
A. I said, "Tim wants you to pick up the stuff out of the
storage unit and meet him in New Mexico."
Q. What did Mr. Nichols say in response?
A. I don't remember him saying anything. I do remember him
nodding his head yes, though.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols ask you what stuff you were talking about?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols ask you what storage unit you were talking
about?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols ask you where in New Mexico Mr. McVeigh --
Mr. McVeigh wanted to meet him?
A. No, he did not.
Q. What happened next during this conversation with
Mr. Nichols?
A. Well, I got the impression that Mr. Nichols wanted to come
inside and sit down for a bit, and I -- I didn't want him to do
that; and so I stepped down off my porch and kind of
nonverbally led him back to his truck, and he left.
Q. Prior to that exchange or conversation with Mr. Nichols,
did you ever have a conversation with Mr. McVeigh when he told
you what he planned to do with the explosives that you saw in
the storage unit?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. When was that conversation?
A. It was earlier than the conversation I just spoke about.
Q. And when was it in relation to the conversation that took
place at the fence that you described yesterday afternoon?
A. It was after that.
Q. Where was the conversation that Mr. McVeigh described what
he was going to do with the explosives? Where did you have
that conversation?
A. In my living room.
Q. And who else was present?
A. My wife was also in the house. I believe she was standing
in the kitchen at one point.
Q. Is there a wall between your living room and your kitchen?
A. No, sir.
Q. How large is your living room?
A. 14-by-20-foot.
Q. And how --
A. That includes the kitchen.
Q. The 14-by-20-foot dimension includes both the living room
and the kitchen?
A. Yes.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh tell you?
A. He told me that he had figured out a way to make a truck
into a bomb.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Did he elaborate?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us what more he said.
A. He said that he was going to use ammonium nitrate and this
stuff called hy -- anhydrous hydroxine (sic) and he was going
to mix it into 55-gallon drums. He was going to arrange it --
arrange it inside a truck in the shape of a triangle. He
said -- he was using the term -- excuse me. It eludes me right
now. He said particularly about the stuff inside the storage
unit, he was going to use those explosives to ignite those
55-gallon drums.
Q. Did he say where he was going to detonate the truck bomb?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said they had chosen a building in Oklahoma City.
Q. Did he say anything more about the building in Oklahoma
City?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said they had chosen that building because that was the
building that the orders from Waco came out of.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh tell you the date on which the bomb -- the
truck bomb would be detonated?
A. He told me that they were going to detonate it on the
anniversary of Waco.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. What do you mean, "the anniversary of Waco"?
A. That would be April 19th.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say what time of the day the bomb would be
detonated?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He told me he wanted to do it at 11:00 in the morning.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say why?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that he wanted to do it at 11:00 because that's
when people would be getting ready for lunch.
Q. Did you say anything in response to him at that point?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you say?
A. I asked him, "What about all the people?"
And he told me that I could think about all those
people -- he said, "Think about the people as if they were
storm troopers in the movie Star Wars. They may be
individually innocent, but they are guilty because they work
for the evil Empire."
Q. How long was this conversation about the truck bomb?
A. It was 45 minutes maybe. I could only estimate.
Q. Who initiated the conversation?
A. Tim McVeigh did.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. During this period of time -- that is, between the
conversation that you had at the fence and the conversation
when you relayed the message to Mr. Nichols -- did you ever
have a conversation with Mr. McVeigh about where the explosives
in the storage unit came from?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Approximately when during that time period did you have
that conversation?
A. I believe it was the night that I went over to the storage
shed and Tim showed me the explosives.
Q. And where did you have this conversation with him?
A. In my living room.
Q. Who else was present, if anyone?
A. My wife may have been present.
Q. And what did Mr. McVeigh say about where the explosives
came from?
A. He told me that him and Terry Nichols stole the explosives
from a quarry in Kansas.
Q. Did he say anything more about the quarry?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He told me that Mr. Nichols had found the quarry because he
would have to drive by it every day on his way to work.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything about how they stole the
explosives?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. Mr. McVeigh told me that they went there in the -- in the
middle of the night, Mr. Nichols brought along his Makita
drill, and they went to a -- an explosive bunker and they tried
to get into the first one and they couldn't because the lock
that they were going to -- going to drill was protected by some
type of anti-theft device. He said they couldn't get the drill
bit to the lock so they went to another one and that did not
have the device on it and so they drilled the lock and they got
into the shed and they made a few trips back to the vehicle
they were using and they -- they stole explosives.
Q. During that period of time, were you working in the
hardware store?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were you familiar with Makita drills?
A. Yes.
Q. What is a Makita drill?
A. Makita is a brand name. The drill Tim was referring to, I
understood to be a cordless drill.
Q. During this period of time, after you first went to the
storage unit and after you relayed the -- and, excuse me --
prior to relaying the message to Mr. Nichols, did you ever have
occasion to go back to the storage unit?
A. Yes, sir.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. When was that?
A. It was when Mr. McVeigh asked me to watch over the -- the
storage unit. That was because he was leaving. He left for
some period of time in mid October. It was during that time
that I went to the storage unit.
Q. Why did you go out there?
A. Because I had stolen an oxygen tank that had a serial
number engraved into the tank, and I believe that I -- it was
possible that I was going to get caught with that, so I wanted
to get rid of it.
Q. Where had you stolen the oxygen canister?
A. From the airport. Out of an airplane at the airport in
Kingman.
Q. Did you do that alone?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who was with you that day?
A. Mr. Rosencrans, my neighbor, and a friend of ours named
Jason Hart.
Q. When in relation to when you stole the oxygen canister did
you go to the storage unit?
A. The next night.
Q. Tell us what happened on the night that you went back to
the storage unit.
A. I drove to the storage unit, and I used the combination and
the key that Tim had left at my house. I got into the storage
Michael Fortier - Direct
unit, and I set the tank down directly to my right, and then I
locked up the unit and left.
Q. What did you see inside the storage unit that night?
A. I seen that it was full of stuff. It looked the same as --
that I had seen it the previous night.
Q. Did you look around inside the storage unit at all?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you see the blanket that you had seen that first night
with Mr. McVeigh and Mr. Nichols?
A. I couldn't say specifically. Everything looked the same in
the storage unit.
Q. And this was prior to the day that you purchased the Jeep
in (sic) October 31?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In the fall of 1994, did you ever speak with any member of
Mr. McVeigh's family?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you speak with?
A. His father.
Q. And when was that?
A. It was during the time that Tim had left in October of
1994.
Q. Prior to October 31?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How was it that you came to -- to speak with Mr. McVeigh's
Michael Fortier - Direct
father?
A. He called me.
Q. Did he ask you any questions?
A. Yes, he did. He asked if I could relay a message to Tim.
Q. What did you say?
A. I told him sure.
Q. Was Mr. McVeigh -- that is, Tim McVeigh -- in the Kingman
area at that time?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. I want to direct your attention now to after October 31,
1994. Did you have any further contact with Mr. McVeigh after
October 31?
A. Yes.
Q. When was the next time that you had contact with
Mr. McVeigh?
A. Shortly thereafter. October 31.
Q. When you say "shortly thereafter," what do you mean?
A. I mean the month of November.
Q. What was the first contact that you had with Mr. McVeigh
after October 31?
A. I received a phone call from Tim.
Q. Where were you when you received the call?
A. I was at home.
Q. What time of the day was it?
A. I believe it was midmorning.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Was anyone else at home at that time?
A. Yes, sir. My wife was.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh say on the -- on the telephone that
morning?
A. When I picked up the telephone, I said, "Hello."
And Mr. McVeigh said, "This is a red alert call," or
he may have said, "This is code red." I'm not sure which.
I said, "Okay."
And he told me that Terry had did Bob and he wanted
to -- he wanted for me to go to a pay phone and give him a call
back.
Q. Did he say anything else at that time?
A. Yes. He gave me the phone number.
Q. How long was this conversation?
A. I don't recall exactly.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh -- excuse me -- did you say anything in
response to Mr. McVeigh at that time?
A. I can't recall other than just agreeing to go to a pay
phone and give -- and calling him back.
Q. When Mr. McVeigh said, "Terry did Bob," did you understand
what he was talking about?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When he said it was a red alert, did you understand what he
was talking about?
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Prior to that telephone conversation that morning, had you
ever had a conversation with Mr. McVeigh about color codes or
red alerts?
A. I don't remember specifically, but I did understand what he
meant when he said that.
Q. What did you understand him to mean?
A. That there was some type of an emergency or something that
I should be aware of.
Q. What did you do after you got that call from Mr. McVeigh?
A. My wife and I drove to a pay phone at the location being
the Tri-Mart that's near my father-in-law's house.
Q. About how far away is it from where you lived?
A. 5 miles.
Q. When in relation to when you got the call did you drive to
the Tri-Mart pay phone?
A. Within an hour.
Q. What did you do when you got there?
A. I went into the store, and I brought $5 with me and got $5
worth of quarters; and I went out to the pay phone that's out
front, and I called Tim.
Q. And did you speak with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us what you -- what the two of you spoke about on the
phone at that time.
A. He told me again that Terry had did Bob and he wanted me to
Michael Fortier - Direct
watch my back because he believed that the man that was robbed
was going to send private investigators out to Kingman to
investigate Mr. McVeigh, and he believed that those
investigators would eventually find me in Kingman; and Tim
wanted me to watch out to see if I noticed anything strange.
Q. What did you understand Mr. McVeigh to be referring to when
he said "Terry did Bob"?
A. I understood that Mr. Nichols robbed a man in Arkansas
named Bob.
Q. Did you know who Bob was at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did you know him to be?
A. A gun dealer that Tim had met.
Q. After that conversation with Mr. McVeigh on the
telephone -- well, let me ask you this, about how long was that
conversation?
A. I -- I don't know. It was just five minutes.
Q. What did you say during that conversation?
A. I just -- I agreed to watch my back.
Q. Did you also agree to call Mr. McVeigh if anybody came out
to speak to you?
A. I don't remember doing that, no.
Q. After that telephone conversation that you initiated or you
called him from the pay phone at Tri-Mart, did you have any
further contact with Mr. McVeigh in 1994?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. It was in December of 1994.
Q. And what kind of contact did you have with Mr. McVeigh in
December of 1994?
A. The first contact would be a phone call.
Q. And where were you when you got the phone call?
A. I was at home.
Q. When is your birthday, Mr. Fortier?
A. It's December 15.
Q. And when in relation to your -- when in relation to your
birthday did you receive these -- this first call?
A. Just a few days prior.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh say when he called you?
A. He asked me if I wanted to make any money. I asked him how
much. He told me 10 to the power of 10. I said, "That sounds
good." I understood that to mean $10,000. He told me to stand
by, he would give me more calls later.
Q. At about this same time, did Mr. McVeigh ever call you at
work?
A. Yes.
Q. When in relation to the call that you just described did
Mr. McVeigh call you at work?
A. Either the next day or the day after.
Q. When in relation to your birthday, December 15?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Still, just prior to my birthday.
Q. Did any of the -- did the conversation when Mr. McVeigh
called you at work relate to this making -- this money-making
proposal, the proposal to make $10,000?
A. Yes.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh say in that conversation?
A. He told me that I would need to take some time off work.
He said I should probably get four days off work and if I could
do so, he was going to give me a call later and find out if I
did or not.
Q. And did you get time off of work?
A. Yes.
Q. In either the first conversation or the conversation when
Mr. McVeigh called you at work, did Mr. McVeigh tell you what
you'd have to do to make $10,000?
A. No, he did not say.
Q. Did you understand that it would involve something illegal?
MR. TIGAR: Objection to what he understood, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. What happened next?
A. I received another phone call from Tim.
Q. When was that?
A. I believe it was later. The -- in the afternoon from the
Michael Fortier - Direct
previous phone call when he asked me to take time off work.
Q. You mean the same day?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened during that conversation?
A. I told him that I could get the time off work, and he told
me to meet him at a motel room. He also asked me to bring over
some items.
Q. Where did Mr. McVeigh tell you to go?
A. To the Mohave Motel on Andy Devine in Kingman.
Q. Where is that in relation to your house?
A. It's about 7 miles away.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh tell you to bring?
A. He told me to bring a couple boxes, some wrapping paper,
some scissors and tape, and he also asked me to bring the
wooden stock on my rifle.
Q. Did he say at that time why he wanted you to bring those
items?
A. No. He did not.
Q. So what did you do?
A. I complied with his request.
Q. So what did you do?
A. Oh, I brought the stuff over to his motel room.
Q. When in relation to when he called did you go to the motel
room?
A. That evening.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Did you go alone?
A. No.
Q. What happened that evening at the motel with Mr. McVeigh?
A. When I first entered the motel room, I had the -- I had the
wooden stock in my hand, and Tim reached for it and I pulled it
back; and I said that he could not have it.
And he said, "Well, will this do in trade?" And he
pulled out an M-16-type weapon.
Q. What do you mean, "an M-16-type weapon"?
A. It looks like an M-16, but it's -- it's not an M-16. The
M-16 is a military-issue weapon, and this would be a civilian
version of it.
Q. And it's like a firearms gun?
A. Yes. It's a rifle.
Q. So what happened next?
A. I made the trade with him, and then he went over to a box
that was in his motel room, a rather large box; and I walked
over and looked into it, and it was full of blasting caps.
Q. What did they look like?
A. The blasting caps themselves looked silver, and it had -- I
can only estimate maybe 10 feet of wire, green and yellow wire
that was all bundled into a neat, little bundle and then tied
with this type of tie wrap.
Q. What happened next?
A. He divided the blasting caps into the two boxes that I
Michael Fortier - Direct
brought and asked my wife to wrap them to make them look like
Christmas presents.
Q. And did your wife do that?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. What happened next?
A. As my wife was wrapping the presents, Tim and I sat down at
the table in the motel room and he told me that if I wanted to
go with him back to Kansas, that he had a lot more of these
type of weapons. He was motioning to the M-16. And if I would
go back to Kansas with him, that I could have some.
Q. Did he say how you were going to get to Kansas?
A. He asked me to drive my Jeep to Kansas, to follow him up
there.
Q. What did you say?
A. I did not want to do that. I told him no.
Q. So what did you agree to do?
A. Eventually, I agreed to rent a vehicle, to ride up to
Kansas with Tim and just rent a vehicle to get back.
Q. During that conversation, did Mr. McVeigh say how many
guns, how many weapons you were going to get?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Were you going to have to buy the guns from Mr. McVeigh?
A. No, he told me that if I wanted to go up to Kansas with
him, that I could have some of those weapons.
Q. Did he tell you where the guns came from?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He told me that they were robbed from a man named Bob in
Arkansas by Terry Nichols.
Q. This is the same -- related to the same conversation at the
Tri-Mart pay phone?
A. Yes. It relates to that conversation.
Q. And you agreed to go to Kansas to get the guns?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you knew that going there would be illegal?
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Why did you agree to go to Kansas to get these guns?
A. Because I wanted $10,000.
Q. Prior to this conversation in the Mojave Motel, and prior
to the -- to the red alert call, had Mr. McVeigh ever asked you
to help him get some money?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. When? When was the first time?
A. I believe it was right around the time when we -- when Tim
first came up to Kingman and told me what he meant -- what he
meant in that letter.
Q. Which -- which conversation are you referring to
specifically?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. The conversation that I had with Mr. McVeigh in my front
yard by the fence.
Q. What did McVeigh ask you at that time in relation to money?
A. It was right around that time that he asked me to max out
my credit cards, if I would be willing to max out my credit
cards and give him the money.
Q. Did he say why he wanted you to max out your credit cards
and give him the money?
A. He did not say specifically why.
Q. Did he -- what did he say generally?
A. I don't remember exactly what he was saying, but my
understanding was that he was not going -- going to be working
and he wanted me to just -- I believe that would be a way to
just support him, pay for his food and lodging.
Q. What was your initial response when he said that during the
conversation at the fence?
A. I said no.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh ever ask you again to max out your credit
cards to give him the money?
A. Yes.
Q. When was the next time?
A. I believe it would have been in the month of October
sometime.
Q. Where were you when you had this conversation?
A. In my -- in my living room.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. And was he -- was he there, or was it a telephone
conversation?
A. No, he was standing right there. He was standing right
there.
Q. Was anybody else there?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Tell us about that conversation.
A. Tim asked me if I would again max out -- if I would be
willing to max out my credit cards and give him the money, and
I told him no. And he asked me again, and it seemed like he'd
ask me again and again until I agreed to get him some fake ID
so he could get his own credit cards and then if he wanted, he
could rip the credit card company off himself.
Q. Prior to when you got the red-alert call, had you ever had
a conversation with Mr. McVeigh about why he and Mr. Nichols
were going to commit a robbery?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it in relation to that first conversation by the
fence where he asked -- where Mr. McVeigh asked you to max out
your credit cards?
A. It was after that.
Q. And where did this conversation take place?
A. In the desert outside of Kingman.
Q. Was anyone else present besides you and Mr. McVeigh?
A. Mr. Nichols was in the area.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. What do you mean by "in the area"?
A. When me and Mr. McVeigh had the conversation, Mr. Nichols
was roughly 50 yards away.
Q. So Mr. Nichols was not able to hear what you and
Mr. McVeigh was speaking about?
A. I don't think he could.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh say about why he and Mr. Nichols
wanted to commit a robbery?
A. Mr. McVeigh told me that Mr. Nichols was getting all pissed
off at him because, in Mr. Nichols' opinion, Tim was
freeloading off him. They were using all of Mr. Nichols' money
and Tim wasn't supplying any. So this was Tim's way -- this is
what Tim told me. It was his way of contributing to their
upkeep.
Q. After the meeting with Mr. McVeigh in the Mohave Motel in
December, did you, in fact, travel to Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you get there?
A. I rode in Tim McVeigh's car east on I-40 until we went into
Oklahoma City, and then we drove north on I-35 until we went
into Kansas. And then we got off the highways -- or the
interstates, and we took state highways up into Kansas.
Q. What kind of car was Mr. McVeigh driving at that time?
A. He was driving a Chevy Spectrum.
Q. When did you leave Arizona in relation to the meeting in
Michael Fortier - Direct
the Mohave Motel?
A. The very next morning.
Q. How long did it take you to get from Arizona to Kansas?
A. Two days.
Q. Did you stay anywhere overnight during that trip?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you stay?
A. In Amarillo, Texas, at a Motel 6.
Q. What happened on the first day of the drive from Arizona to
Kansas?
A. We were driving on the highway, on I-40, and we passed a
Ryder truck; and Tim pointed to it and said that was the type
of truck that he was wanting to use except he wanted the one
larger. He was pointing to the wheel well of the truck we were
looking at. The wheel well went over the back tire. He told
me the -- the truck that he was wanting to use, the -- the bed
of the -- the truck sat on top of the tire. We continued to
pass the vehicle, and Tim also pointed at the numbers on the
door and said the one that he was wanting to use said 18,000
pounds on the door.
Q. During this first day of the drive, did you say anything
about the plan -- the truck-bomb plan?
A. Yes. I told Tim that this sounded stupid and he would do a
lot better just standing on the corner telling people about it.
And he said that he did not believe talk was doing any good and
Michael Fortier - Direct
he was going to stay inside the truck and blow anybody away who
tried to stop it.
Q. What do you mean by "blow somebody away" or "blow anybody
away"?
MR. TIGAR: If he understands, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. What happened on the second day, Mr. Fortier?
A. On the second day, as we was passing through Oklahoma City,
Mr. McVeigh got off the highway and drove to the building. He
pointed out the building and said this is the one that they
were going to blow up.
Q. Describe the building that you were -- that you saw.
A. I seen what I believe is the back of the building first. I
remember a large -- or I remember a protruding elevator shaft
on the back of the building and a large cement courtyard with
some trees. We drove around the side and then to the front of
the building, and the building looked like -- the front of it
was just black glass, all glass. There were stairs leading
down to the front door, and there was also a pullout, like a --
like a dock or -- you -- someplace for vehicles to pull into in
front of the building.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh ask you any questions about that area you
just described where you pull in in front of the building?
A. Yes. He asked me if I thought a truck the size that he was
Michael Fortier - Direct
talking about would fit there.
Q. And did you respond to that question?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you say?
A. I told him that you could probably fit three vehicles
there. Three trucks there.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh show you anything else in the vicinity of
that building?
A. Yes, he did. Mr. McVeigh drove -- he drove on past the
building and turned left into an alley, and he pointed out a
parking spot. He told me he was thinking of doing one of two
things, one being that him and Mr. Nichols would follow each
other down in two vehicles and drop off a vehicle in that
parking spot and then drive back to Kansas and mix the bomb and
then Tim would drive the bomb back down on the morning that he
was planning on doing this, or he said he was thinking of
having Mr. Nichols follow him down the morning of the bombing
and wait for him in that parking spot.
Q. Did you say anything to Mr. McVeigh about this parking
spot?
A. I asked Tim why he wouldn't park his car further down the
alley or down the alley.
Q. And what did he say?
A. He said that he wanted the building -- I believe it's the
YMCA building -- between him and the blast.
Michael Fortier - Direct
MR. MEARNS: With the Court's permission, your Honor,
could I have Mr. Fortier come down and approach the model and
indicate the locations on the model, Exhibit 642?
THE COURT: If he can do so.
If you want to move closer to the model, you may.
MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry, your Honor.
THE COURT: If you want to move over --
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. I was just making
a note.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Fortier, do you recognize the building, first, where
Mr. McVeigh took you that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you point it out, please.
A. This looks like the building. This is the elevator shaft I
was speaking of. This main courtyard and the trees.
Q. Okay. Where is the front of the building that you referred
to?
A. Here's the black glass.
Q. And would you point out the parking space where Mr. McVeigh
took you.
A. It would be this parking space right here.
MR. MEARNS: And for the record, it's just to the east
and north of the YMCA? Is that fair, Mr. Tigar?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
Michael Fortier - Direct
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Thank you, Mr. Fortier. How long were you in Oklahoma City
with Mr. McVeigh that day?
A. 20 minutes, roughly.
Q. What road or route did you take out of Oklahoma City?
A. Well, we drove up that alley and then got onto some main
roads. And I'm not sure how we got to the highway, but we got
to I-35, and we headed north up to Oklahoma City (sic).
Q. Did you notice any landmarks or buildings when you got onto
the highway?
A. Yes. As soon as we got off onto the highway, it seemed
like we had to rise up a hill. As soon as we got above onto
the highway, I could see a whole lot of -- whole bunch of radio
antennas for radio stations.
Q. How far did you drive that day?
A. We drove all the way to Junction City, Kansas.
Q. And what route did you take through Kansas?
A. I don't know the route numbers.
Q. Did you take the highway -- the interstate highway?
A. No. We got off the interstate when it became a toll road.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. Mr. McVeigh did not want to get onto the toll road. He
told me that when you go through the toll booth, it takes your
picture, and he did not want that.
Q. Did you and Mr. McVeigh make any stops along the way to
Michael Fortier - Direct
Junction City, Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. How many stops did you make?
A. Three stops, not including gas.
Q. Where was the first stop?
A. It was at a -- at a storage unit, I believe, in -- I
believe it's Council Grove, Kansas.
Q. And what did you see near the storage facility?
A. There was a Pizza Hut that was nearby, and there was also a
commercial building that was nearby.
Q. What happened when you got there?
A. Tim got out of the vehicle and got into a storage unit. I
got out of the vehicle and stood stretching my back; and I
turned around and looked into the unit, and I seen Tim standing
on some junk, looking over two mattresses that were sitting up
side by side. He was looking over those mattresses into
whatever was behind there.
Q. Were you able to see what was behind there?
A. No, I could not.
Q. How far into the storage unit were the mattresses that you
saw?
A. 12 to 18 inches.
Q. And you made two more stops after that?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you at that first stop?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. No more than a couple minutes.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh take anything out of the storage unit
during that stop?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Where was the next stop?
A. We drove north of that storage unit to a lake. I believe
it's called Geary Lake. And we went there. Tim wanted to show
me a hill that his vehicle could climb.
Q. Describe what you saw that day at the lake.
A. Well, we -- we drove down to the road that goes right by
the lake and we drove up to a hill, and then we walked up the
hill; and then we got back into Mr. McVeigh's vehicle, and we
drove up the hill. And at the top of the hill, I could see --
it's a natural formation, but it looks like a rock wall. It's
a natural rock formation. It's a clearing at the top of the
hill. And then we got onto the road that led out of the lake
area and got back onto the main road.
Q. How long were you at the lake that day?
A. Five minutes. Ten minutes.
Q. Where was the third stop?
A. The third stop would be at another storage unit, I believe
in Herington, Kansas.
Q. And what was near that storage facility?
A. Again, there was a Pizza Hut that was right nearby and some
other commercial buildings.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. And what did you do there?
A. I stayed inside the vehicle as Tim got into one of the
units and brought a box out and put it -- the box in his back
seat of his car, and then we drove away.
Q. How long were you at that second storage facility, that
third stop?
A. Just minutes.
Q. Where did you go after that?
A. We drove to Junction City, Kansas.
Q. What did you do in Junction City?
A. We ate dinner. Tim stopped by at a Wal-Mart, and then we
rented a motel room -- or actually, Tim rented a motel room.
Q. Did you register at the hotel?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Who registered?
A. Mr. McVeigh did.
Q. What did you do when Mr. McVeigh was registering?
A. He asked me to hide out behind the motel so he could save
some money and just get a single room.
Q. What happened that evening at the motel?
A. Tim brought the box into the motel room and laid everything
that was in the box out on the bed. He went through everything
and kept some of the stuff that he wanted, and he gave me some
stuff out of the box.
Q. What was in the box that -- that Mr. McVeigh laid out on
Michael Fortier - Direct
the bed?
A. There were some pistols in the box. There were also some
ammunition and some clips.
Q. And did Mr. McVeigh give you anything at that time?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he give you?
A. He gave me two pistols, some ammunition and some clips.
Q. Did he say anything when he gave you those guns?
A. I can't remember what he said specifically.
Q. Do you recall what he said generally in substance?
A. "There you go. These are yours."
Q. What happened the next day?
A. The next day, Tim drove me to the airport in Manhattan,
Kansas, and I rented a vehicle.
Q. What kind of a vehicle did you rent?
A. It was a Crown Victoria.
Q. And where did you rent that car?
A. At the Hertz dealer.
Q. What did you do after you rented the car?
A. I followed Tim back to the storage unit where the weapons
were.
Q. Was that the first or the second storage unit that you had
gone to the previous day?
A. It was the second one, the one that Tim got the box out of.
Q. What did you do when you got there?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. I backed the vehicle up to the storage unit's door, opened
the trunk. As I was doing that, Tim -- Tim helped me back up
to the door, and then he went and opened the door to the
storage unit. I got out of the vehicle and I looked into the
unit, and there was a bunch of blankets covering some -- some
stuff. When Tim pulled the blankets off, there were four
cardboard barrels with lots of weapons sticking out of them.
Q. When you say "lots," how many are you referring to?
A. Lots. I don't know. 50, maybe.
Q. What happened next?
A. Tim asked me to keep watch and he went through the weapons,
and he divided up the weapons that he wanted to give me and the
weapons that he was leaving inside the storage unit.
Q. How long did that take?
A. 45 minutes to an hour. Maybe longer. Maybe a little less.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh give you any guns that day?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. How many guns?
A. I believe there was between 20 and 25 weapons.
Q. Where did he put them? Where did Mr. McVeigh put them?
A. We both were loading them into the trunk of my rent-a-car.
Q. What did you intend to do with these guns?
A. I intended to sell most -- most of them. There were a few
that even from the breakdown, I was intending to keep.
Q. Where did you intend to sell them?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. At gun shows and to whoever I could find to buy them.
Q. Did Mr. -- did you say that to Mr. McVeigh? Did you tell
him that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he say anything in response?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you to do with the guns?
A. He told me that I would need to wipe them -- he told me to
make sure that I wiped the weapons down and get his
fingerprints off them.
Q. After the guns were loaded into the trunk of the car, what
did you do?
A. Mr. McVeigh and I went to the Pizza Hut that was nearby and
ate lunch.
Q. What happened after you ate lunch?
A. We drove to a nearby gas station and I filled up the tank
of the car, and I also asked Tim to follow behind me to -- to
look at my rear end of the vehicle because it was so low from
the weight of the guns, I was worried about the bumper dragging
or it looking funny. And I asked him to -- if it looked okay
to pass me and give me a thumbs-up, or a thumbs-down, whichever
it may be. We left the gas station, and he did so. He drove
and he -- he passed me and gave me a thumbs-up. Then we came
to a T in the road where Tim headed north and I headed south.
Q. And where did you go?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. I drove back to Kingman.
Q. How long did it take you to drive back to Kingman?
A. Two days. I drove all through the night until I hit the
Arizona border, and then there's a rest stop right on the other
side of the Arizona border where I parked and slept for a few
hours.
Q. What did you do with the guns in the trunk of the car when
you got home?
A. I waited till evening, and then I brought them to the
house.
Q. Did anyone help you bring the guns into the house?
A. Yes. My wife did.
Q. Do you recall your first contact with Mr. McVeigh in 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. When in 1995 was your first contact with Mr. McVeigh?
A. In late January or early February. I'm not sure.
Q. Did you see him in person, or did he call you?
A. I received a phone call.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh say?
A. He asked me to come to a motel room where he was staying.
Q. Where was that motel room?
A. On the west side of Kingman.
Q. And did you go there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go alone?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. I went with my wife.
Q. What did you see when you got -- when you first got to the
motel?
A. In front of the door, which Tim told me was his room, there
was a station wagon. I believe it's a Pontiac B2000. I looked
in the back of it, and I noticed there was a green duffel bag
that I believe belonged to Tim; and then I noticed the Michigan
plates on it, and I thought that that was Tim's new vehicle.
Q. You had never seen Mr. McVeigh with that car before?
A. No.
Q. Did you go into the motel room that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you and Mr. McVeigh have any conversation about the
guns that he had given you in December?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he ask you?
A. He asked me if I had done any gun shows yet.
Q. What did you say?
A. I told him I had not.
Q. What happened next?
A. He became upset.
Q. What do you mean, "he became upset"?
A. When Tim becomes upset, he gets real quiet and won't talk
to you and he gets -- he'll give you dirty looks, and that's
what he was doing.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Not long after that. I tried to make conversation with
him, but it was going nowhere, so my wife and I left.
Q. After that first meeting in the motel with Mr. McVeigh in
1995, did you, in fact, go to any gun shows?
A. Yes.
Q. How many gun shows did you attend in 1995?
A. Three.
Q. Where were the three?
A. First one was in Reno, Nevada. The second, St. George,
Utah. The third, Tucson, Arizona.
Q. Did you go alone to those three gun shows?
A. No.
Q. Who did you go with to the first one in Reno, Nevada?
A. I went with Mr. McVeigh.
Q. And who did you go to -- to the gun show in St. George,
Utah?
A. Again, I went with Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Who did you go to the third one with?
A. My wife.
Q. When were these gun shows? When in 1995 were these gun
shows?
A. February and March.
Q. Did you sell any of -- of the guns that you had gotten from
Mr. McVeigh? Did you sell any of those guns at those three gun
Michael Fortier - Direct
shows?
A. Yes.
Q. How many did you sell?
A. All of the ones that -- that I did not turn over to the FBI
or sell to my neighbors or friends.
Q. And about how many is that?
A. 15 -- 12, 15.
Q. How much money was generated from the sales of those guns?
A. $4,000.
Q. What did you do with that $4,000?
A. I -- I used half of it to support myself.
Q. And what did you do with the other half?
A. The other half, I had to turn over to Mr. Nichols.
Q. What do you mean? What happened?
A. The night of the first gun show, I -- I sold quite a bit of
weapons right on the first day that the gun show -- the first
gun show; and when I got back to the motel room, I showed
Mr. McVeigh all the money. And he told me that he had been
talking with Terry Nichols and that Terry was pissed off at
Mr. McVeigh because he had given me those weapons, but if I
would give Terry $2,000, he would call it even.
Q. So did you give any money to Mr. McVeigh that night?
A. I gave him $1,000 and told him that I'd pay Terry back the
other $1,000, you know, by doing other gun shows later on.
What Tim did was he had $1,000 and he put that money together
Michael Fortier - Direct
and put it into a letter that he said he was going to send to
Terry Nichols.
Q. So how much money was in that letter? Did you see?
A. I seen Mr. McVeigh put $2,000 into an envelope and seal it.
Q. Did you ever pay Mr. McVeigh any more of the -- any more
money?
A. Yes. I paid him back the $1,000 that I owed him.
Q. When did you do that?
A. During the next few gun shows.
Q. Were you working during this period of time in February and
March of 1995?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I had terminated my employment at Kingman True Value back
in December.
Q. So what was your source of income during that time, early
1995?
A. I was using my income-tax returns. I was getting a small
benefit from the VA. Lori's parents were being generous
towards us. And I was also using the money from the weapons to
support myself.
Q. Now, you told us a moment ago that you didn't sell all of
the guns that Mr. McVeigh gave you?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you sell any guns to friends?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. How many -- about how many guns did you sell to friends?
A. I believe four.
Q. Did you exchange any of the guns for drugs?
A. Yes.
Q. How many guns?
A. One.
Q. What did you get in exchange for that one gun?
A. Got a half pound of marijuana and an eight ball of crystal
meth.
Q. What did you do with the other guns; that is, the guns that
you didn't sell or exchange?
A. I was keeping them for myself.
Q. What did you eventually do with them?
A. I turned them over to the FBI.
Q. When did you do that?
A. After I started cooperating. In the summer of 1995.
MR. MEARNS: With the Court's permission, your Honor,
I'd like to show Mr. Fortier some weapons; and if Mr. -- if
Agent Tongate could assist me in that so Mr. Fortier can
identify them.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Fortier, I'd first like to show you what has been
marked as Government Exhibit 1826.
Michael Fortier - Direct
THE COURT: I take it all these firearms have been
cleared of ammunition.
MR. MEARNS: They have all been cleared and rendered
inoperable, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a Mini-14 with a folding stock.
Q. Where did you get that?
A. The metal portions of it came from the -- came from Tim
McVeigh in Kansas.
Q. Okay. Is that gun in the exact same condition as when you
got it from Mr. McVeigh?
A. No, sir.
Q. What's different about it?
A. My wife had put the folding stock on it.
MR. MEARNS: Okay. Your Honor, we'd offer 1826.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1826 received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. I'd like to show you Government Exhibit 1825. Do you
recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Is that one of the weapons that Mr. McVeigh gave you?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it in the same condition that it was when you got it
from Mr. McVeigh?
A. No, it's not.
Q. What's different?
A. The pistol grips are different. When I first got it, the
rear grip was wood and it was a shoulder-stock grip and the
front grip was also wood and it didn't protrude like this one
does.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we'd offer 1825.
THE COURT: 1825?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. No objection. Sorry.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. MEARNS: Agent Tongate, if you would show
Mr. Fortier Government Exhibit 1827.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize that item, Mr. Fortier?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a .308.
Q. Is that a rifle that you received from Mr. McVeigh in
December of '95 -- excuse me -- December of '94?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it in the same condition?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. I put a scope on it.
Q. Other than that, it's in the same condition?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 1827.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MEARNS: 1829, Agent Tongate.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize that, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. It is called a .30 carbine.
Q. Is that one of the rifles that Mr. McVeigh gave you?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And that you surrendered to the FBI in May of '95?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it in the same condition as when you received it from
Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 1929.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MEARNS: Agent Tongate, 1830, please.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize that item, Mr. Fortier?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. That is called a Mini-30.
Q. Where did you get that?
A. I got that from Tim in Kansas in December of 1994.
Q. And that's another weapon that you surrendered to the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it in the same condition as when you received it
from Mr. McVeigh?
A. I may have put that scope on there.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 1830.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 1830.
MR. MEARNS: Agent Tongate, if you would show
Mr. Fortier 1822.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize that, Mr. Fortier?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a .50 caliber.
Q. Where did you get it?
A. I got this from Tim in Kansas in 1994.
Q. Do you see the scope on the top of that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Was the scope on the weapon when you received it from
Michael Fortier - Direct
Mr. McVeigh?
A. No, it was not.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 1822.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Was that -- 1822, the .50 caliber rifle, was that operable
when you got it from Mr. McVeigh?
A. No, it was not.
Q. What was wrong with it?
A. The firing pin was broken.
Q. And was the firing pin ever repaired?
A. Yes.
Q. How was the firing pin repaired?
A. Mr. McVeigh sent it off to the Nichols farm to have it
repaired.
Q. I show you what's been marked for identification as 1822B.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do. That is the bolt to the .50 cal.
Q. That has the firing pin that was repaired?
A. It is inside that, yes.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 1822B.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
Michael Fortier - Voir Dire
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good after -- good morning, Mr. Fortier.
A. Good morning.
Q. You said that 1822 had some change made in it?
A. The .50 cal.'s bolt, yes.
Q. Yes, sir. And you said it was sent off someplace to be
repaired. Did you say that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And how -- on what basis did you say that it had been sent
someplace to be repaired?
A. Mr. McVeigh told me that it was sent to the Nichols farm to
be repaired.
Q. And did he say what Nichols farm he was talking about?
A. The Nichols farm in Michigan.
Q. Michigan.
A. Yes.
Q. And so the -- that's the only way you know that is what
Mr. McVeigh told you?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Well, if you're going to object, I'll
sustain it.
MR. TIGAR: Well, then -- then I don't need to
approach, your Honor. I object.
THE COURT: All right. The objection to -- 1822B, was
Michael Fortier - Voir Dire
it --
MR. MEARNS: Yes. That was.
THE COURT: -- sustained.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. The color of -- of the .50 caliber rifle, was it that color
when you received it?
A. No.
Q. What color was it when you received it?
A. I believe it was all black.
Q. And how did it get to be the color that we see today?
A. Mr. McVeigh and myself painted it.
Q. I'd like to show you finally 1817. Do you recognize that,
Mr. Fortier?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a .22 Hornet.
Q. Where did you get that rifle?
A. I got that rifle from Tim in Kansas in 1994.
Q. And was it in the same condition when you got it from
Mr. McVeigh as it is today?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 1817.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
Michael Fortier - Direct
MR. MEARNS: Thank you, Agent Tongate.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. What did you do with 1817, that -- the Hornet rifle that
you just spoke about?
A. I tried selling it at all the gun shows that I went to, and
it would not sell. So I talked to my neighbor, Jim Rosencrans,
and asked him to sell it to some of his friends or customers
and then split the money with me.
Q. And did you, in fact, give it to Mr. Rosencrans?
A. I didn't hand it to him, no.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I laid it over the fence that separates our yards, and I
laid it down into his yard and left it in his yard.
Q. You said a moment ago that he -- Mr. Rosencrans could sell
it to his customers. What did you mean?
A. Mr. Rosencrans sells crystal meth, or he did at that time.
And I thought the people coming into his house all the time,
one of them might want to buy that weapon.
Q. You told us earlier this morning about a conversation with
Mr. McVeigh about him asking you to max out your credit cards.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever, in fact, purchase a false identification kit?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When did you do that?
A. In the fall of 1994.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Tell us what you did.
A. I looked in the back of the Soldier of Fortune magazine and
I found an ad for false identification. I wrote to the address
and asked for some order forms which they sent back to me which
I filled out and then sent back to them.
Q. In what name did you order the false identification?
A. I used the name Tim Tuttle.
Q. Why did you use that name?
A. Because I considered the false identifications to be Tim's
and I thought he was going to rip off the credit card companies
with it, so I used his alias.
Q. Tim Tuttle is an alias that you knew Tim McVeigh to use?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Did you receive the kit that you ordered?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. Tim was no longer around so I thought I did it for nothing
so I stuffed it into my desk.
Q. And did you ever see it again?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh ever ask you about it again?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. When was that?
A. I believe it was in February of 1995.
Q. What did he -- what did Mr. McVeigh say?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. He either asked me if I still had it or if I had ever
gotten it.
Q. And what did you say?
A. I said, "It should still be in my desk."
Q. Did you ever -- but you never saw it again after -- after
you received it when you ordered it?
A. That's correct.
Q. You indicated a few minutes ago that you had a disability,
a VA disability?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much was your disability?
A. 10 percent.
Q. And what -- what caused you to get that disability benefit?
What was your problem?
A. I have a problem with my shoulder.
Q. Have you ever had any problem with your back?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of problem do you have with your back?
A. There's a bulging disk in my lower back.
Q. How long have you had that problem?
A. Since the latter part of 1993.
Q. Did you ever receive treatment or -- for your back in 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. I enrolled in a back school at the VA Hospital in Prescott,
Michael Fortier - Direct
Arizona.
Q. Where is Prescott in relation to Kingman?
A. It's a few hours southeast of Kingman.
Q. When in 1995 did you enroll in the back school?
A. I believe the dates are March 6 through the 18th.
Q. So the treatment was about two weeks?
A. Yes. It was ten days. I went home on the weekend.
Q. And where was Mr. McVeigh when you left to go on the -- to
the back school in early March?
A. He --
Q. I'm sorry. In early March?
A. He was staying at my house.
Q. And was Mr. McVeigh staying at your house when you came
home on the weekend?
A. Yes, he was there.
Q. And was Mr. McVeigh home -- at your home in Kingman when
you returned after the two weeks?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. After you returned from the back school, did you have any
exercise program?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your exercise program?
A. The doctor told me that I should walk, take a walk at least
once a day.
Q. And did you do that?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh ever join you on one of these walks?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Do you recall what happened?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Tell us what happened on that walk.
A. Tim told me that Terry no longer wanted to help him mix the
bomb. He told me that there was some problem between -- or the
problem had to do with Terry's wife, Marife. I asked Tim what
he was going to do if Terry didn't help him. I made a joke and
said, "What would you do? Would you kill him if he doesn't
help you?"
And he answered me seriously and said he would not do
that. And he went on to say that Terry would have to help him
because he's in it so far up till now.
Further on in the conversation, as we got to my
house -- or I mean in the walk as we got to my house -- Tim was
asking me to help him mix the bomb. He wanted me to go to
Kansas with him.
I told him I didn't want to do that.
And then he started to ask me to leave my wife and
join him. He said to me that we could be a couple desperados.
And I told him I would not do that, and he called me
"domesticated." He used it like a curse word, as if that's
bad. I made it clear to Tim that my answer was no, and he
Michael Fortier - Direct
became upset. And again, when Tim becomes upset, he becomes
real quiet. He went into my house and into his front bedroom.
And he stayed in there for, I believe, the rest of the night.
Q. During that conversation, did he ask you to help him in any
other way besides mixing the bomb?
A. Yes. He did.
Q. What did he ask you if you would -- would you be willing to
do.
A. He asked me if I didn't want to help him mix the bomb,
could I at least give him a ride from Las Vegas out to the
desert after the bombing.
Q. What did you say?
A. Again, I told him no.
Q. How long was this conversation on the walk?
A. 20 minutes to half an hour.
Q. After this conversation that day, did Mr. McVeigh continue
to live in your house?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. For how long?
A. No more than two weeks, or up till two weeks.
Q. What caused Mr. McVeigh to move out?
A. One afternoon, I had mentioned in front of Mr. McVeigh to
my wife that I was going to start baby-sitting my niece and
possibly two other children of a friend of mine. And Tim got
up out of the chair and he said that he couldn't handle another
Michael Fortier - Direct
child in the house. And he went into his room; and within an
hour, he had packed all his stuff and left.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. McVeigh after that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you see him at motels in Kingman?
A. Yes.
Q. How many different times did you see Mr. McVeigh in motels
in Kingman after that?
A. Three different times.
Q. During what time period?
A. In April of 1995.
Q. What happened during the time that -- during the times that
you saw Mr. McVeigh at the motels?
A. The first time I went to see him in a motel room was at his
request. When I got there, he wanted me to read a book, which
I took and went home with it.
Q. Do you recall the name of that book?
A. I believe it's called The Rise of the Far Right Extremist.
Q. And did you read it?
A. I read snippets of it. I looked through it. Tim had
written in the margins of the book. But I did not read the
book.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I took it back to Tim's motel room at a predesignated time.
And when I got there, he asked me if I had read it; and I told
Michael Fortier - Direct
him no.
And he said, "Well, keep it and try and read it; and
read --" and he had another book with him, and he said, "Read
Chapter No. 2 of this book."
Q. Do you recall -- did you read Chapter 2 of that other book?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was that called?
A. The chapter was called, "The Order."
Q. What did you do -- did you read it?
A. I read some of it.
Q. What was it about?
A. It was about a group of people living in Colorado that
were -- that were white -- white supremacist people.
Q. What did you do with the second book?
A. I eventually returned it to Tim.
Q. When you say "eventually," what do you mean?
A. Well, again, I returned to his motel room with the two
books and gave them back to him.
Q. So this is all in 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Were these books that Mr. McVeigh purchased?
A. No. They were books that he got from the library in
Kingman.
Q. What's the name of the library? Do you recall?
A. Mohave Community Library.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. On any of the times that you went to the motel to see
Mr. McVeigh, did your wife go with you?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. When you went to see Mr. McVeigh at the motels, did you
have any concerns for your safety or her safety?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was your concern?
A. I felt that it would not be -- I felt that it would be
possible that Tim may take some type of violent action towards
me.
Q. So what did you do?
A. I brought a -- I brought a weapon with me.
Q. And did Mr. McVeigh ever take any violent action against
you?
A. No, sir. None at all.
Q. After McVeigh -- Mr. McVeigh moved out of your house, did
you ever see him again at your house?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times?
A. Only once.
Q. And when was that?
A. I believe it would be in early April of '95.
Q. What were you doing at that time? That is, what were you
doing when Mr. McVeigh came to your house?
A. My wife and I and my neighbor, Jim Rosencrans and the woman
Michael Fortier - Direct
that he lives with at that time -- we were smoking crystal meth
and playing cards.
Q. What happened when Mr. McVeigh arrived?
A. There was a knock on the door, and I went to answer the
door. It was Tim. We had a little bit of conversation. And
then he asked me if I had a certain ammo can, which I said yes,
I do. And he wanted to trade it for the ammo can that he was
holding. I felt that I just wanted to get rid of Tim, so I
agreed. I said, "Sure"; and I went into my bedroom and got the
ammo can he was speaking of. And I went back out to the living
room, and Tim headed into the front bedroom and I followed him
into there.
Q. Is that the front bedroom where Mr. McVeigh stayed when he
lived at your house?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened inside that front bedroom that day?
A. When I went to -- we exchanged the ammo cans. He showed me
in the ammo can that he had brought some explosives, and he
asked me to keep ahold of this and he may come back for it one
day.
Q. Tell us in more detail what you saw inside the ammunition
can.
A. I seen the -- at least one Kinepack, which is a set of two
items, the red liquid and the clear -- milky-clear plastic
container with the orange top. And there was also at least one
Michael Fortier - Direct
blasting cap with orange coil, blasting cap.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh tell you what you should do with the
contents of that ammunition can, the explosives in the
ammunition can?
A. He asked me to keep it for him.
Q. How long was Mr. McVeigh at your house on that occasion?
A. Not very long. Maybe ten minutes.
Q. When was the last time that you saw Mr. McVeigh prior to
the bombing in Oklahoma City?
A. It was when I returned the two books to his motel room.
Q. When you saw him on that occasion, did he tell you where he
was going?
A. No, he did not.
Q. At that time, did you consider calling law enforcement,
anyone from law enforcement to tell them about the plan to bomb
the building in Oklahoma City?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. I did not think it was going to happen.
Q. Why didn't you think it was going to happen?
A. From the way Tim was acting and things he told me.
Q. What do you mean?
A. I -- I mean that I thought Tim was heading for Colorado and
that his plans with Mr. Nichols were never going to happen.
Q. What do you think about that decision now?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. I regret that decision.
Q. Where did you spend Easter of 1995?
A. In Kingman, Arizona, with my parents, my family, and my
sister.
Q. Was Mr. McVeigh still in the Kingman area as of Easter of
'95?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. When did you learn of the bombing in Oklahoma City?
A. The morning that it happened.
Q. Where were you?
A. I was sitting in my house with my neighbor.
Q. Who is the neighbor?
A. Jim Rosencrans.
Q. Where was your wife?
A. She was sleeping.
Q. How was it that you came to learn of the explosion in
Oklahoma City?
A. Mr. Rosencrans and I were playing video games; and when we
finished, he turned the TV off -- or he turned -- excuse me, he
turned the video off, and the TV automatically switches to a
channel. And that's when I first seen the news coverage.
Q. What did you see?
A. The first thing I noticed I could see clearly is the black
smoke.
Q. What else did you see?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. I seen a building that was completely destroyed. I seen
the people on the streets.
Q. What was your reaction?
A. Right away, I thought that Tim had -- had did it.
Q. Did you consider calling the police or somebody in law
enforcement at that time?
A. No, I did not.
Q. When you first saw the coverage of the bombing in Oklahoma
City, did you anticipate that you would be contacted by law
enforcement?
A. I did not think Tim was going to get away with it; so yes,
I did.
Q. And were you, in fact, contacted by someone in law
enforcement?
A. Yes.
Q. When were you first contacted by someone about the bombing
in Oklahoma City?
A. I think it was two days later, on a Friday. I believe it
was the 21st.
Q. Where were you?
A. I was at home.
Q. And who contacted you?
A. The FBI did.
Q. Was it in person, or on the telephone?
A. It was in person.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. And did the agents on that occasion ask you questions?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of questions did they ask you on that occasion?
MR. TIGAR: Object to hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled as to the questions asked.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. What questions did they ask you on that occasion?
A. They mostly asked me questions about Tim McVeigh.
Q. And did you respond truthfully to those questions?
A. Not completely.
Q. What do you mean, "not completely"?
MR. TIGAR: Object, hearsay.
THE COURT: This is from what he said?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. For his prior
out-of-court statements.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. When you say "not completely," what did you say?
A. Any time they asked me or wanted information about the
bombing, that's when I lied. When they asked me if I knew Tim
McVeigh or if he had been in town lately, I mostly answered
truthfully.
Q. But you lied in response to questions about whether or not
Mr. McVeigh was involved in the bombing?
MR. TIGAR: Object to the leading, your Honor.
Michael Fortier - Direct
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Did you continue to be interviewed by FBI agents during the
course of that weekend?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How -- How many times were you interviewed by FBI agents
over the course of the weekend from April 21 to April 24?
A. Each of those days. It would be Friday, Saturday, Sunday,
and Monday.
Q. Did they continue to ask you questions about Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your response to those questions?
A. I lied any time they wanted to -- I lied about
Mr. McVeigh's participation in the bombing and any knowledge
that I had of the bombing.
Q. During the course of any of those interviews over that
weekend from April 21 to April 24, did the agents ask you any
questions about Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. What questions were you asked about Mr. Nichols?
A. When was the last time I seen him. If Tim McVeigh ever
talked about him. If I knew any of his family. That's --
Q. Did you respond truthfully to the questions about
Mr. Nichols?
A. No, I did not.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. What did you say?
A. I said that I hadn't seen Mr. Nichols since the service,
Tim had never spoken about Mr. Nichols.
Q. Why did you lie in response to the agents' questions about
Mr. McVeigh and Mr. Nichols?
A. Because I did not want them to know about my knowledge of
the bombing.
Q. On April 24, did you also -- excuse me -- I believe it was
on April 21, did -- you provide fingerprint exemplars to the
FBI?
A. Yes, I did.
MR. MEARNS: May I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize that, Mr. Fortier?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What are those?
A. These are my fingerprints.
Q. Do you recognize your signature there?
A. Yes, I do.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 1723.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1723 is received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Fortier, during any of the interviews with the FBI
Michael Fortier - Direct
between April 21 and April 24, were you asked any questions
about a trip to Kansas?
A. Yes, I -- I was.
Q. What did you say about your trip to Kansas over that
weekend?
MR. TIGAR: Object to hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: What's the point of going into this?
You -- what is your purpose in asking these questions?
MR. MEARNS: Simply to establish that Mr. Fortier lied
to the FBI on that occasion.
THE COURT: He said he has.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. In late April or early May, did you anticipate that your
house would be searched by the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. And was your house eventually searched?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you recall when?
A. I believe it was May 1.
Q. What happened on that day?
A. I received a phone call from one of the agents. He asked
me to gather up my family and meet him at the Mohave Community
College. He told me that my house was going to be searched.
Q. After you received that call, did you try to destroy or
conceal any evidence?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. No, I did not.
Q. Prior to the day on which you were notified that there was
going to be a search of your house, did you try to get rid of
any evidence or any items?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. I asked my neighbor, Jim Rosencrans, if he wanted certain
items.
Q. And did you, in fact, give any items to Mr. Rosencrans?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you give him?
A. I gave him some videotapes of Waco and a red crate with
a -- about a half or a third bag full of ammonium nitrate.
Q. Did you -- prior to the search on May 1, did you get rid of
any other items?
A. Not any attempt to conceal something from the FBI.
Q. What had you done with the ammunition can that had the
explos -- explosives that Mr. McVeigh had given you earlier in
April?
A. I had stashed that at my brother's house in the trunk of a
car that he was building.
Q. When did you do that?
A. I did that before the bombing.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. Because I believed my house was going to be raided for all
Michael Fortier - Direct
those drugs, that half a pound of marijuana and the crystal
meth that I had.
Q. Did you remain in your house when it was searched?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went to the Mohave Community College and met the agents
there.
Q. Do you know why the agents asked you to leave?
A. I didn't at that time. I do now.
Q. What do you know now?
A. They implanted some mics -- some microphones at my house.
Q. That is, a listening device?
A. Yeah. A bug.
Q. You're also aware that at some point during that same
period of time that the FBI tapped your telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. Since you began cooperating with the Government, have you
reviewed some of those conversations, transcripts of those
conversations?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. In addition to lying to the FBI in early April -- excuse
me -- in late April and early May, 1995, were you lying to
anyone else about your knowledge of the bombing in Oklahoma
City?
A. I was lying to everybody.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Why were you lying to everybody?
A. Because I did not want anybody to know that I had knowledge
of this.
Q. During this period of time, did you give any interviews
from anyone in the media?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did you give an interview to?
A. I don't know the man's name, but it was for CNN.
Q. What did you say during that interview with CNN?
MR. TIGAR: Object to the hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, what's the purpose of this?
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, simply I'm anticipating that
Mr. Tigar will cross-examine him.
THE COURT: Well, that's his prerogative, not yours,
to cross-examine.
MR. MEARNS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. You mentioned on the night before the bombing that you were
up all night with your neighbor, Jim Rosencrans.
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What was your condition that night?
A. I was high on crystal meth.
Q. Was that the first time you'd ever used crystal meth?
A. No. I've used crystal meth quite a bit.
Q. How -- how frequently were you using methamphetamine in
Michael Fortier - Direct
1994 and 1995?
A. Through 1994 into 1995, it increasingly got worse. 19 --
Q. When -- what do you mean?
A. I was using it more and more.
Q. So how frequently?
A. In 1995?
Q. In 1994.
A. Four or five times a month.
Q. And did it increase at some point during 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. When did it start to increase?
A. In the fall of 1994.
Q. How often were you using it in the fall of '94?
A. Four or five times a month.
Q. How often were you using it in early 1995?
A. After I quit my job and I was around my house all the time,
I started to use it more often, once or even twice a week.
Q. Have you ever used any other illegal drugs besides
methamphetamine?
A. Yes.
Q. What other drugs or substances have you used?
A. Marijuana; and one time -- or twice, I dropped LSD.
Q. When did you do that?
A. The LSD?
Q. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. Once when I was in the service and then once in 1994 with
Tim McVeigh and my wife.
Q. Did -- How often were you smoking marijuana in 1994 and
1995?
A. Not often at all.
Q. What does that mean?
A. Four or five times a year in '94.
Q. Did there come a time when you were subpoenaed to the grand
jury in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. In May of 1995.
Q. When did you travel to Oklahoma City?
A. On the 16th or the 17th of May.
Q. What happened when you got to Oklahoma City?
A. I made a phone call from the motel room that we had to a
number that was on the subpoena, and I was looking for a lawyer
for my wife and I.
Q. Who did you call?
A. I'm not sure exactly who I was calling, but the FBI did
show up at the -- at the motel room.
Q. Did you speak with the FBI that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell them everything that you knew about the
bombing in Oklahoma City that night?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did there come a time when an attorney was appointed to
represent you?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was that?
A. Mr. Michael Maguire.
Q. After Mr. Maguire was appointed to represent you, did you
then proceed to meet with agents and prosecutors?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you sign any agreements before you began those
meetings?
A. I don't recall exactly. I believe I did called -- an
agreement called a proffer.
Q. What did that proffer agreement provide?
A. That anything I said directly to them could not be used
against me in court but that anything they derived from what I
was saying could be.
Q. During those meetings that were covered by the proffer
agreement, did you disclose any of the crimes that you had
committed?
A. Yes.
Q. What crimes did you disclose?
A. Crimes concerning the stolen weapons, crimes concerning
drug use.
Q. Prior to your testimony today, approximately how many times
Michael Fortier - Direct
have you met with prosecutors and agents?
A. All together, probably 25 times.
Q. Was Mr. Maguire present at any of those meetings?
A. Yes. He was present for all those meetings.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, may I show Mr. Fortier a
couple of exhibits?
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Fortier, if you could locate in that folder Government
Exhibit 176, 177, and 178. Do you see them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recognize what's depicted there, what's in those
photographs?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. This is the storage unit that was near my house in Kingman
that Tim brought me to on the night that he showed me the
explosives.
Q. And do those photographs fairly and accurately depict that
storage facility?
A. Absolutely.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we'd offer 176, 177, and 178.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. MEARNS: With the Court's permission, I'd like to
Michael Fortier - Direct
publish 176.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. What do we see in that photograph, Mr. Fortier?
A. The storage units I was just looking at.
Q. Where in relation -- in this photograph did you and
Mr. McVeigh and Mr. Nichols park the vehicles that evening?
A. Mr. Nichols' truck was just forward of the light that you
can see above the doors. And Mr. McVeigh's vehicle was just to
the rear of that light.
MR. MEARNS: If I may publish 177, please.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize in that photograph the storage unit that
you went in?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Which storage unit did you go into that night?
A. The unit just directly to the left of the light. It's E10.
Q. With the Court's permission, I'd like to show you what is
in evidence as Government Exhibit 202. Do you recognize that,
Mr. Fortier?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. This is the Tri-Mart that I returned Tim's call in, I
believe, November of 1994.
Michael Fortier - Direct
MR. MEARNS: And if I may show Government Exhibit 243
in evidence.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize the pay phone there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where is the pay phone in the photograph?
A. The left front corner of the Tri-Mart. That is the phone I
used to call.
Q. In your folder, Mr. Fortier, if you could look at
Government Exhibit 210. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. This is the receipt, motel copy receipt for the night that
Tim and myself spent in Amarillo, Texas, on our way to Kansas
to pick up those weapons.
Q. Do you recognize your handwriting there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recognize your signature?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer Government
Exhibit 210.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. 210.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. Mr. Fortier, there's a light pen. Do you see the pen
that's attached to the podium there?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you circle where your signature is.
A. Whoops. Sorry.
Q. And up above in the upper left-hand corner, do you see the
dates that are reflected there?
A. Yes.
Q. And what are those dates?
A. The arrival date and the departure date. The 15th and
16th.
Q. Of December?
A. Yes.
Q. If you would look into your folder for Government Exhibit
219. Do you see it there?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. This is the car rental agreement.
Q. Which car rental agreement?
A. For the car that I used to get from Kansas to Arizona in
December of 1994.
Q. Do you recognize your handwriting and your signature there?
A. Yes, I do.
Michael Fortier - Direct
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer Government
Exhibit 219.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. You may publish.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Could you circle where your signature is.
Mr. Fortier, I'd like to now show you what has already
been admitted into evidence as Government Exhibit 95.
THE COURT: It's not in evidence.
MR. MEARNS: I'm sorry. May I have a moment, your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, if he wants to offer it,
that's fine. I recognize it as the Herington unit.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Fortier, do you see what is on your screen?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. That is the storage unit that on -- that is the first
storage unit that Tim and myself stopped at on our way to
Kansas.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, then we would offer
Michael Fortier - Direct
Government Exhibit 95.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: It's received without objection.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. If I may now show you what is in evidence, I believe, as
103. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. This is the storage unit in Council Grove, Kansas, that had
the weapons in it.
Q. Is that the first, or the second storage unit you went to
with Mr. McVeigh on the drive through Kansas?
A. It's the second unit.
Q. Do you -- are you able to identify in that photograph which
unit you actually went into?
A. Yes. This middle one right there.
Q. The middle one of the three in the building on the right?
A. Yes.
Q. When you were there that day with Mr. McVeigh, did you see
any other guns that you recall that were inside that storage
unit?
A. Yes. Two in particular that I can recall.
Q. What did you see?
A. There was another .50 cal., and Tim also showed me an Uzi.
Q. Okay. When you say "another .50 cal.," what do you mean?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. A separate one from the one that I brought back to Arizona
with me.
Q. And what color was it when you saw it in the storage unit
that day?
A. It was black.
Q. And when you say you also saw an Uzi, what are you
referring to?
A. An Uzi is either automatic or semiautomatic. It's a short
weapon with a snub barrel and a pistol grip and a folding
stock.
MR. MEARNS: If I may, your Honor. If Agent Tongate
could display to Mr. Fortier Government Exhibit 1808.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know the source of 1808.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, may he just display it --
THE COURT: No. It's not an exhibit. He can't
display it.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. You indicated that you turned over several firearms to the
FBI.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you turn over anything else to the FBI after you began
cooperating?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you turn over to the FBI?
A. I turned over the explosives that Tim gave me that one
Michael Fortier - Direct
night.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, may Agent Tongate --
THE COURT: Well, we'll take a recess before. I
thought you were nearing the end. Apparently, you aren't.
You may step down, Mr. Fortier.
Members of the jury, we're just going to take a recess
at this time for a little rest stop as usual in the middle of
the morning; and of course, during this time, once again,
you're excused from the courtroom with the cautions that you
must not discuss among yourselves or with anyone any of the
testimony in this case or any of the exhibits in this case or
anything about the case, remembering that it is your obligation
to keep open minds until you've heard all of the evidence in
the case and as well to refrain from reading, seeing, or
hearing anything that could relate to the issues on trial.
So you're excused now. 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:30 a.m.)
THE COURT: We'll recess, 20 minutes.
(Recess at 10:30 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:50 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 10:50 a.m.)
THE COURT: Get the witness.
Please resume the stand, Mr. Fortier.
Mr. Mearns.
Michael Fortier - Direct
MR. MEARNS: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Fortier, on the witness stand there, you'll find what
is in evidence as Government's Exhibit 1717. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you open in that book to page F?
MR. MEARNS: If I may display that page, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. You can either read it in the book or read it on your
monitor.
A. You said page F?
Q. Yes.
THE COURT: It's on the screen there in front of you.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize your name on that page, Mr. Fortier?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And do you recognize -- what is written there?
A. It says, "Fortier, Mike, 3035 McVicker. (Temporary)," I
guess, in parentheses. And it says, "Brother - Paul."
Q. And what does it say below that next line?
A. It says, "Lori." And across from that it says, "Kingman,
Arizona, 86402."
Q. Is that your correct -- or was that your correct address?
Michael Fortier - Direct
A. I believe -- yes. The ZIP, I believe, is 86401.
Q. And when was that your address?
A. From February of 1993 until May of 1995.
Q. And what is on the line below that?
A. My in-laws' address.
Q. Could you read that for us?
A. 4345 Abel, Kingman, Arizona.
Q. That's Lori's parents' address?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is to the right of that?
A. My home phone number.
Q. And could you read that for us?
A. (602) 692-9445.
Q. When was that your phone number?
A. During the time that I was living at 3035 McVicker.
Q. Did you ever give your address and phone number to
Mr. Nichols?
A. Never.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, finally, if Agent Tongate may
approach the witness with Exhibits 160 through 162 and 164
through 168.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Fortier, if you would first look at 160, 161 and 162.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Michael Fortier - Direct
Q. What is that?
A. Those are the same type of blasting caps that Tim brought
to my house.
Q. And were those the blasting caps that you turned over to
the FBI after you began cooperating?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 160 to 162.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They're received.
MR. MEARNS: Would you take those out of the box,
please, Agent Tongate.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. And you see that there are two separate bags. Do you see
the cardboard in the bag that's to your right, Mr. Fortier?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. When you turned -- when you received it from Mr. McVeigh,
was the cardboard separated from the orange blasting caps?
A. No. It was holding the coils together.
Q. Showing you -- Agent -- if you could look at 164 through
168.
Do you recognize those items?
A. Yes.
Q. What are those?
A. Those are blasting caps that I turned over to the FBI.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 164 through
Michael Fortier - Direct
168.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They're received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. And if you could -- when did you receive those blasting
caps?
A. I believe I received those blasting caps the night that Tim
brought the ammo can over to my house.
Q. When is that?
A. In April of 1995.
Q. Had you ever seen blasting caps like that before, before
April, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. In December of 1994, in the motel room with Tim.
Q. What did you see him with the blasting caps on that
occasion (sic)?
A. Excuse me?
Q. How was it that you saw blasting caps like this on that
occasion?
A. Tim had a box full of -- not full. Tim had a box with
blasting caps in it; and he separated them into two boxes and
had my wife wrap them up as presents.
MR. MEARNS: I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Mr. Tigar . . .
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good morning again, sir.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to represent Terry Nichols.
You've told several different stories about what
happened to you in April -- excuse me -- in 1994 and 1995,
haven't you, sir?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. I want to ask you first about what you told us yesterday
and today, and then I'm going to ask you about some of the
things you said other times. You have a written agreement with
the Government. Is that right?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You are not charged with a conspiracy to blow up the Murrah
Building, are you, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. You did not plead guilty to that; is that correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you did not plead guilty to blowing up the Murrah
Building; correct?
A. That is true.
Q. You didn't plead guilty to murdering anybody inside it; is
Michael Fortier - Cross
that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And didn't -- the prosecutors told you, did they not, that
you were being asked to plead guilty to everything that you
did. Is that your understanding?
A. Yes, everything that I could be charged with.
Q. Now, you mentioned that you first had a political
discussion with Mr. McVeigh in the Army; is that correct? Did
he share some literature with you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. He gave you a copy of a book called The Turner Diaries;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it fair to say, sir, that from that day down to the
time when you last saw him, he often gave you political
literature?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. And is it fair to say, sir, that he made copies of
political literature that he had and handed it out to others?
A. I believe he did.
Q. Did you see him using the copy service in Kingman for that
purpose?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know that he used the copy service in Kingman for
that purpose?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. He had told me he did.
Q. And is it fair to say that this political literature that
Mr. McVeigh began to share with you in the Army had a certain
character?
A. Yes, I think that's fair.
Q. It was white supremacist literature; correct?
A. The book in the Army certainly was, yes.
Q. And -- now, you did not agree with the white supremacist
agenda, did you, sir?
A. I do not.
Q. You do not and you did not; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. You were his friend all of these years, but you did not
share his racism; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you mentioned that Mr. McVeigh's attitudes changed
over time. Is that fair?
A. Yes.
Q. After the events in Waco in 1993, he became much more
agitated; right?
A. He was upset about the events in Waco.
Q. Now -- excuse me. During your friendship with Mr. McVeigh,
you learned -- he asked you to defraud some credit card
companies; correct?
A. Yes, he did.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. He asked you to -- he asked you to go to Kansas and said he
would pay you $10,000; correct?
A. May I respond to the previous question, please.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. He didn't actually ask me to defraud the credit card
companies.
Q. He asked you to max out your credit cards?
A. And give him the money.
Q. And give him the money. Did you discuss whether or not you
would pay back the credit card companies?
A. I certainly would have paid back my credit card companies.
Q. What did you understand he was asking you to do?
A. Give him money.
Q. And when you had a discussion with him about false
identification, you told us you thought that was so that he
could get his own credit cards; right?
A. That's what I told him.
Q. He told you that he was -- you were going to get $10,000
from him for going to Kansas; correct?
A. He used the term "10 to the power of 10."
Q. Well, 10 to the power of 10 is not $10,000, is it, sir?
A. No, it's not. It's not even close.
Q. All right. But you understood that meant $10,000?
A. That is correct.
Q. You got some guns, but you never got anything worth $10,000
Michael Fortier - Cross
from him, did you?
A. No. Those weapons all together were not worth $10,000.
Q. So he didn't tell you the truth; right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you know that he's a thief; correct?
Well, sir, you and Mr. McVeigh snuck into a National
Guard yard and stole things together; correct?
A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Q. So that's thieving, isn't it?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And Mr. Nichols wasn't with you then, was he?
A. No, he was not.
Q. Didn't have anything to do with that; correct?
A. No, he did not.
Q. So you learned that Mr. McVeigh was a thief; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in addition to that, you heard Mr. McVeigh on a number
of occasions say that he was going to blow up a building;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he told you that he was going to blow up a building
while it had people in it; correct?
A. Yes, he did say that.
Q. You learned that Mr. McVeigh uses narcotics; correct?
A. He has.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. On how many occasions have you seen Mr. McVeigh use
controlled substances?
A. Two or three times.
Q. What controlled substances did you see Mr. McVeigh use on
the occasions when you were with him?
A. He smoked a marijuana joint with me once; and on two or
three other occasions, he used crystal meth.
Q. Now, towards the end of your direct testimony, you said
that there was an LSD experience. Was that -- did that involve
Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. He attempted to take some LSD along with me and my
wife.
Q. You say "he attempted"?
A. The LSD was bunk. It was no good. It didn't do anything.
Q. So he took -- you all took what you thought was LSD and it
didn't do anything for you. Correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. What was it supposed to do for you?
A. I'm not really sure. It was -- I've only taken it one
other time, and it just makes you feel kind of goofy.
Q. Kind of what?
A. Goofy.
Q. Goofy?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, so that when you were taking it with Mr. McVeigh, was
Michael Fortier - Cross
it your objective to get goofy with him?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And what was the objective of taking crystal meth with
Mr. McVeigh?
A. Mr. McVeigh wanted to experience it.
Q. And did he experience it?
A. I believe he did.
Q. Now, you also told us that Mr. McVeigh moved out of your
house because you were going to start baby-sitting. Correct?
A. Yes, that is.
Q. And he didn't like little kids?
A. I always thought he did; but when I mentioned bringing in
other children, he became upset and left.
Q. Upset and left within the hour; correct?
A. That is absolutely correct.
Q. And you had another conversation with him in which he said
in a mocking way that you had become domesticated; right?
A. No, that's not correct.
Q. What did -- he said you had become domesticated?
A. Yes. I'm mistaken. He was mocking me when he said that.
Q. Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, sir; but
what's a better word than "mocking" for the way he said
"domesticated" to you?
A. What confused me was your smile. I thought you were saying
he said that to me in a joking manner.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. No, I'm sorry. Please don't take anything from the facial
expressions. He said it as an insult. Right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you never -- you never saw Mr. Nichols steal anything;
right?
A. Never.
Q. And you know that Mr. Nichols has two little kids; right?
A. At that time -- now I do, yes.
Q. Yes. And as a matter of fact, his daughter is the same age
as your Kayla; correct?
A. About a year -- I think there is almost a year difference.
Q. Is there almost a year? But you remember when the
Nicholses first came to your house that Mrs. Nichols, Marife,
and your wife, Lori, were talking about your two kids; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you understand that -- and since April 19, you all --
you and Lori have had another child; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's your understanding Mr. and Mrs. Nichols have had
another child; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after the Army, you knew -- you at least knew who
Mr. Nichols was in the Army; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The first time after the Army that you saw Mr. Nichols was
Michael Fortier - Cross
in the fall of '93. Is that right?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. He came to -- you met him at a Wal-Mart and he came to your
house and spent a little while. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was the time you told us that he and your wife --
or that Mrs. Nichols and your wife, Lori, talked about babies
and you and Mr. Nichols talked about that he was going to get a
job as a carpenter in Las Vegas. Is that fair?
A. Yes.
Q. And on that occasion, sir, isn't it a fact that Mr. Nichols
was not driving a pickup truck?
A. No, he was driving a pickup truck with a camper.
Q. Wasn't he driving a moving truck with a trailer behind it
and a pickup truck on one of those dolly -- or flatbed trailers
you use to haul vehicles?
A. What I remember him driving is a pickup truck with a large
camper.
Q. Now, during that time -- during that conversation, did
Mr. Nichols -- did you hear Mr. Nichols threaten anybody?
A. No.
Q. He didn't say that he was going to bomb anything; right?
A. No, he did not.
Q. He didn't express any political views to you, did he?
A. No. We didn't speak about political issues.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Didn't give you any political literature; correct?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Now, then you said that you had a conversation sometime
after that in early 1994 with Mr. McVeigh. Do you remember
that?
A. Yes.
Q. And he called you from the Nichols farm in Michigan; is
that correct?
A. That's where he told me he was calling from.
Q. Okay. Now, the -- Terry Nichols and Mrs. Nichols and
little baby, you had seen them and they said they were headed
for Las Vegas; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. This is after that. Mr. McVeigh said he wasn't
happy on the Nichols farm; right?
A. Right.
Q. Did he say why he wasn't happy there?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Now, the second time you saw Mr. Nichols was at a dinner at
a house in Golden Valley. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, that was a house that had been rented by Timothy
McVeigh; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you told us also that Mr. McVeigh had got some wood
Michael Fortier - Cross
from the True Value Hardware and made berms. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see the berms that he made?
A. At his house?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. What did those wooden berms look like?
A. About 15 feet long by about 3 or 4 feet high of stacked
wood.
Q. And Mr. McVeigh told you that that was going to defend him
in the event that something happened?
A. That's what he said.
Q. Well, what did he tell you that this stack of wood was
going to do?
A. He told me it was going to block bullets.
Q. Did that sound rational to you that a stack of wood could
block bullets?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. It did. Have you read the story of the three little pigs
and the wood house?
A. Not lately.
Q. Well, I mean, from -- but from your experience, do you
think that wooden blockades can actually stop heavy weapons?
A. Yes. The berm that he built would stop a bullet.
Q. Okay. And you said that he also had guns at the corners of
Michael Fortier - Cross
rooms in his house?
A. His house was mainly one large room. He had a weapon in
the corners.
Q. Now, at that meeting, you said Terry Nichols served dinner
to people; correct?
A. No. I had dinner with Terry Nichols and Tim.
Q. Okay. And your wife, Lori, was there; right?
A. I don't remember her being there.
Q. Oh, you don't. All right. Have you had a chance to talk
to your wife, Lori, about visiting that home there when
Mr. Nichols was there that one time?
A. No, sir.
Q. And by the way, when we talk about your wife, Lori, you
were -- you were together as a couple from shortly after you
got out of the Army; right?
A. And before that.
Q. And before that. And then there came a time when you
decided to go through the official ceremony, but you always had
considered yourself married before that; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So it's -- when I talk about your wife, Lori, or
Mrs. Fortier, you had lived together in that way for quite some
time. Correct?
A. Yes. I considered her that same way.
Q. Yeah. Okay. Now, that evening, Mr. Nichols talked about
Michael Fortier - Cross
nutrition; correct?
A. He talked about bread.
Q. And he was talking about he likes, what, wheat bread or
things like that?
A. He told me wheat bread is what he can only eat or what he
likes to only eat. And he told me also that he likes to make
his own bread.
Q. Now, you know, Mr. McVeigh -- he's not exactly a
health-food addict, is he, would you say?
A. No, I wouldn't say he's concerned about that.
Q. No. You'd say -- I mean he eats at Wendy's, where you all
ate once -- Wendy's, he goes to Pizza Hut and eats, places like
that?
A. Yes.
Q. The fast food/junk food?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that fair to say?
A. Yes, that's fair.
Q. Now, that evening when you met with Mr. Nichols, did he
say -- did he threaten anybody?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. You didn't have any political conversation of any kind with
him that evening, did you?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Now, in -- sometime in 1994 later on, Mr. McVeigh left
Michael Fortier - Cross
Kingman. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when he left Kingman -- and you told us that -- he had
some kind of a sale. Correct?
A. He did. He had a sale, but it wasn't when he left. It was
prior to that.
Q. All right. When he had the sale, did you buy something
from him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you buy from him?
A. Among other items, I bought some explosive items from him.
Q. What explosive items did you buy from Mr. McVeigh there in
1994 when he left Kingman?
A. I bought some canon fuse.
Q. Some what? I'm sorry?
A. Some canon fuse.
Q. Canon fuse. All right, sir.
A. Some blasting caps.
Q. Yes, sir?
A. Some aluminum powder that he said would blow up in some
way. A can of gun powder. Possibly other items, but I can't
remember.
Q. In addition to explosive items, did you buy fertilizer from
him?
A. No, sir.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Did you ever get fertilizer from Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you get fertilizer from Mr. McVeigh?
A. That night he asked me to -- if I wanted to buy the
fertilizer also, ammonium nitrate in the bag.
Q. That's the same night as the garage-sale night?
A. Yes.
Q. And he asked you if you wanted to buy some ammonium
nitrate. What did you say to him?
A. I told him no. I didn't know how to use the ammonium
nitrate. And he asked me if I would just hold onto it for him
then.
Q. Did you hold onto it for him then?
A. I took it home and put it in my shed.
Q. Now, during this garage sale, Terry Nichols wasn't there,
was he?
A. No, he was not.
Q. To your knowledge, he wasn't even in Kingman, Arizona, was
he?
A. I didn't know where he was.
Q. But you certainly didn't see him in connection with all of
this; correct?
A. I did not.
Q. Now, you mentioned that Mr. McVeigh talked to you about the
New World Order. Correct?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Now, that night that you went thieving with Mr. McVeigh in
the armory, had he told you there were U.N. vehicles down
there?
A. What he told me was there was a big build-up at the armory,
and we went to check it out.
Q. Did he also tell you that he had been to look for U.N.
markings on military vehicles in Mississippi?
A. No, he never told me that.
Q. You also mentioned in talking to us yesterday something
about a militia. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you all contact some individual or organization about
the possibility of forming a militia?
A. We contacted an individual in Prescott, Arizona, and talked
to him about what his militia consisted of and how myself and
Tim could build one.
Q. And who was that person?
A. I believe his name is Walter Bassett.
Q. And is that the National Alliance?
A. I don't know about that.
Q. In addition to that, during that time you and Mrs. Fortier
and Mr. McVeigh, you said, set off a pipe bomb in the desert
together; right?
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Now, during this period of time, 1994, Mr. McVeigh was
frequently in your home; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. He lived there for a part of the time; correct?
A. Very early part of 1994, he lived at my house for
approximately a week.
Q. And then later in 1994, he house-sat your house; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. He was best man at your wedding; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you and -- it was -- the case was that anytime
Mr. McVeigh wanted to come by, he felt free to do so; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when was it that you and Mr. McVeigh and Mrs. Fortier
set off that pipe bomb in the desert that you told us about?
A. I believe it was right around May of 1994.
Q. Was that just a lark?
A. Yes.
Q. I mean, that is to say, you just were going to go see if
something blew up; right?
A. Well, actually, we went out to the desert, and Tim brought
it with him and he pulled it out of a bag; and I didn't have
any objections to him blowing it up.
Q. All right. Now, you told us that you had received a letter
from Mr. McVeigh sometime in August or September, 1994.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And sometime after you got that letter,
Mr. McVeigh came to Kingman. Is that your testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Mr. Nichols with him when he came to Kingman?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. You didn't see them together; right?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So you and Mr. McVeigh had a discussion about the
possibility of some action. Correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. But Mr. Nichols wasn't there, was he?
A. No, he was not.
Q. So what you were learning about this -- and Mr. Nichols
never wrote you a letter, did he, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you also told us that sometime Mr. McVeigh asked you
to look for a locker for him; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was Mr. McVeigh calling and saying, "Get a
locker"; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, sometime after that, you told us, Mr. McVeigh and
Mr. Nichols did come to Kingman; correct?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And that was the time that you told us that you went to a
storage locker; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You showed us a picture of a storage locker; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, that evening, Mr. McVeigh went into the storage
locker, lifted up a blanket, and showed you some explosives;
correct?
A. He didn't actually lift the blanket. He reached underneath
the blanket and pulled a box.
Q. All right. Reached under the blanket, pulled a box out and
showed you some explosives; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was those -- was that sausage or something?
A. I can't remember exactly what it was he showed me.
Q. Now, during that time, Mr. Nichols was getting a spare tire
out of the shed and handling other things that were in the
shed; right?
A. Yes. I think he was loading stuff from the shed into the
truck.
Q. When you say "stuff," you don't mean explosives, do you?
A. No, I don't mean that.
Q. All right. And in fact, it was Mr. McVeigh that was
showing you explosives; correct?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. That is right.
Q. Now, that evening, did you discuss politics with
Mr. Nichols?
A. No, sir.
Q. In your whole life, did you ever have a conversation where
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were standing there so that
everybody could hear what was being said, where Terry said --
where Tim McVeigh said, "That's my friend Terry. He and I are
going to blow something up"? Did that ever happen?
A. Once.
Q. When did it happen?
A. On a morning in October.
Q. Right.
A. Excuse me.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. On a morning in October.
Q. That's right.
A. In the yard -- in the street in front of my house, Tim told
me in front of Terry Nichols that they were going to the desert
to explode that sausage.
Q. That -- all right. Let's talk about that. There was an
occasion in October that you're telling us now where
Mr. McVeigh and Mr. Nichols came to your house; correct?
That's what you told us?
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. And they said they were going to the desert to blow up a
sausage; right?
A. Tim was speaking.
Q. Tim was speaking?
A. Yes.
Q. And so far as you were aware, Terry Nichols could hear.
That's what you're telling us; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that a big sausage or small sausage? What did it
look like?
A. It was about 4 inches in diameter, and it was betwen 12 and
18 inches long.
Q. Now, was there any time in your life when Mr. McVeigh and
Mr. Nichols were standing so that everybody could hear when
Mr. McVeigh said in words or substance: "This is my friend
Terry. We're going to blow something up that belongs to
somebody else, like a building"?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was there ever a time in your life where Mr. McVeigh and
you and Mr. Nichols were standing side by side, where everybody
could hear each other, when Mr. McVeigh said in words or
substance: "My friend Terry and I are going to blow up a
building with people in it and kill people"?
A. No, sir.
Q. Let's talk about this October thing that you told us
Michael Fortier - Cross
happened. According to you, what Mr. McVeigh said is they were
going to go out in the desert and blow up this sausage and
some -- something that was in a jug; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew what it was like to go out in the desert and
blow something up and have stuff scatter around because you had
been out there with the pipe bomb with Mr. McVeigh; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, was there a -- was the pipe-bomb episode that you and
Mrs. Fortier and Mr. McVeigh went -- was that where you split a
boulder with it?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Well, was there a time when you and Mr. McVeigh
and Mrs. Fortier went out in the desert and split a boulder
with an explosive charge?
A. No, sir. Concerning a boulder, the explosive rolled it on
its side, did not split it.
Q. I'm sorry. Was the time when the explosive -- was there a
time when you went out and did something to a boulder with an
explosive?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the pipe-bomb episode?
A. Yes.
Q. And when the pipe bomb went off, it rolled the boulder on
its side; is that right?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, you then said that Mr. McVeigh came by and he told you
to watch over his storage shed; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And he gave you a key and a piece of paper; right?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he do with the piece of paper?
A. He wrapped it around the key.
Q. What side was the writing on?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. McVeigh about a
VCR?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Nichols about a
VCR?
A. With my wife, I did.
Q. Okay. Now, you also told us that there came a time when
Mr. McVeigh left a message with you for Mr. Nichols; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. About a storage locker.
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. Just prior to October 31.
Q. All right. Now, were you ever in that storage locker after
the time that Mr. McVeigh left that message?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Excuse me. No.
Q. Well, which is it? Yes, or no?
A. It is no.
Q. Because you did go in the storage locker using that key to
put in the O2 bottle you had stolen; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And can you recall now that it was before Mr. McVeigh
left -- supposedly left this message that you put the O2 bottle
in there?
A. Mr. McVeigh did not leave me a message to put the O2 bottle
in there.
Q. No, no. My question is inartful.
There was an episode where you put an O2 bottle in.
Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then there was a time when you say you gave a message
to Mr. Nichols; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Which event happened first?
A. The event that I put the O2 bottle into the storage shed.
Q. Now, you didn't know what things Mr. Nichols was supposed
to get out of the shed, did you, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. And, in fact, in December, you met Mr. McVeigh in a motel
Michael Fortier - Cross
room, didn't you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And at that time, he had explosives, didn't he?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And in fact, you wrapped explosives with him; right?
A. My wife did.
Q. Pardon?
Now, during the conversation when Mr. Nichols came,
did you talk about politics, when he came to get this message
you say you gave him?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So now is that the fourth time you saw Mr. Nichols?
We count once in '93, once at dinner, once the night of the
shed, once to get the message. Right?
A. I believe there was one other time.
Q. When is the one other time?
Oh, I'm sorry. That's the time you told us about when
they came by and said they were going in the desert; right?
That is it?
A. Actually, I was thinking of another time.
Q. All right. What's the fifth -- what's the sixth time?
A. Outside of Kingman -- in the desert outside of Kingman when
Tim told me that they were planning on robbing this guy Bob in
Arkansas.
Q. All right. You saw them out there. Now, where was
Michael Fortier - Cross
Mr. Nichols when Tim was telling you this?
A. He was standing about 50 yards away.
Q. That's the 50 yards away. Okay. So now let's go back
through these times. Six times you've been seen Mr. Nichols
from that time in '93 when he came through until the time you
saw him yesterday. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols ever say he was going to rob anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he ever say he had robbed anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh ever say within earshot of Mr. Nichols that
Mr. Nichols was going to rob anybody?
A. He did not.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh ever say within earshot of Mr. Nichols that
Mr. Nichols had robbed anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. And as we've established before, Mr. McVeigh never said
within earshot of Mr. Nichols that Mr. Nichols planned to
explode anything in a way that was going to hurt anybody;
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And Mr. Nichols never said he was going to explode anything
in a way that was going to hurt anybody; correct?
A. That is correct.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. But Mr. McVeigh told you that he was going to be
responsible for robbing somebody; correct? He told you he was
going to have Bob robbed. Correct?
A. He told me that him and Nichols were going to rob Bob.
Q. I understand that, but Mr. Nichols wasn't present then when
he said that?
A. That is correct.
Q. And Mr. Nichols said this fellow Bob was a traitor;
correct?
A. No, Mr. --
Q. Excuse me. You're right. Mr. McVeigh said this fellow Bob
was a traitor; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Well, let's continue on with what you told us yesterday.
Christmas of 1994: Now, Mr. McVeigh said, "Go get
some wrapping paper"; correct? Did he ask you to do that?
A. He asked me to bring some wrapping paper to his motel room.
Q. Did you get the wrapping paper, or did Mrs. Fortier get the
wrapping paper?
A. I think we just brought it from my house.
Q. Did you know what it was you were going to wrap in wrapping
paper?
A. No, sir.
Q. And when you got there, you discovered it was explosives
you were going to wrap in Christmas paper; correct?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Had Mr. McVeigh asked you especially to get Christmas paper
to wrap whatever it was he wanted to wrap?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And what kind of Christmas paper did you choose to wrap the
things that Mr. McVeigh wanted you to wrap?
A. We just got some stuff that was laying around the house.
Q. Now, Mr. Nichols wasn't there, was he?
A. No, he wasn't.
Q. After you wrapped the explosives in the Christmas wrapping
paper, you took a trip. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have the Christmas-wrapped packages with you on the
trip?
A. I believe Tim had them with him.
Q. Well, you were together in the same car; correct?
A. That is correct, but I didn't -- I did not visually see
them in the car.
Q. Didn't see them. And you told us that you drove to
Oklahoma City; correct?
A. We drove through Oklahoma City.
Q. Now, you told your people at work you were going to
Florida; correct?
A. Yes, that's what I told them.
Q. Why did you lie to them?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. In an effort to get time off work.
Q. You thought it would be easier to get time off work to say
you were going to Florida instead of saying you were going to
Oklahoma?
A. I'm not sure why I said Florida. I don't remember why that
was the state I chose.
Q. Did you know of any business relationships that Mr. McVeigh
had in Florida?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh suggest Florida to you?
A. He may have. I don't recall.
Q. Have you ever been to Elohim City, Oklahoma?
A. No, I never have.
Q. Do you deny that?
A. I absolutely deny that.
Q. Have you ever used the name Michael Fontaine?
A. Never.
Q. Do you deny that?
A. Absolutely deny that.
Q. Have you ever stayed in the Dreamland Motel in Junction
City, Kansas?
A. I may have. I'm not sure of the motel room's (sic) name.
Q. You stayed in the Sunset Motel, in Dreamland -- in Junction
City, Kansas; correct?
A. I don't know the motel's name that we stayed at.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Did you stay at the Dreamland Motel in Junction City,
Kansas, Easter weekend of 1995?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you deny that?
A. Absolutely.
Q. You say you got to Oklahoma City, and you looked at the
building; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that discussion with Mr. McVeigh in Oklahoma City cause
you to say to him that you wouldn't have anything more to do
with him?
A. I don't believe I said that.
Q. Now, before you went to Oklahoma City, you mentioned about
this oxygen bottle. That was a trip you took or a thieving
trip you took with Mr. Rosencrans; correct?
A. And another person.
Q. Who was the other person?
A. His name is Jason Hart.
Q. Pardon me?
A. Jason Hart.
Q. Are you related to him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Rosencrans you also told us is a dope dealer;
right?
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. He's your neighbor, or was?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you know he was a dope dealer?
A. By what I observed.
Q. Did you buy from him?
A. On occasion.
Q. Did you sell to him?
A. No.
Q. Now, you told us in direct examination that you had used
methamphetamine; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you use it?
A. I either smoked it, or I snorted it through my nose.
Q. And when you "smoked it," you smoked it in some kind of --
how did you smoke it?
A. We either put it on glass or on tinfoil, and you heat the
bottom of it and it will smoke.
Q. And then what do you do with the smoke as it comes up off
the glass or the tinfoil?
A. You inhale it.
Q. Well, you can inhale it. One does inhale it. Is that what
you do with it?
A. Yes.
Q. What does it do for you?
A. It makes you feel very excited.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Does it make you irritable?
A. I believe it does when you're coming down off it.
Q. Did it make you stay awake a long time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did it give you a schedule where you'd be up late at night
and then you wouldn't get up until late the following morning?
A. If you didn't have to go to work, yes.
Q. Well, did you have to go