The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Wednesday, November 19, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 81)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:45 a.m., on the 19th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, and RANDAL SENGEL, Assistant U.S.
Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park
Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing
for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, and ADAM THURSCHWELL,
Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308, Denver,
Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
Good morning.
MR. MACKEY: Good morning.
THE COURT: Are we ready to proceed?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Jury in at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
JURY: Good morning.
THE COURT: We are ready to proceed with the next
witness.
MR. MACKEY: Good morning, your Honor. Thank you. We
would call at this time, Mr. Bob Chowdhury.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Mesbah Chowdhury affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Mesbah Chowdhury, C-H-O-W-D-H-U-R-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Chowdhury.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where are you from originally?
A. Originally from Bangladesh.
Q. When did you come to the United States?
A. 19 -- August, 1979.
Q. Did you go to school in America?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go?
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
A. First I went to University of -- Indiana college in
Indiana, Franklin College in Indiana, when I came to America.
Q. And did you also get married and raise a family here?
A. Yes.
Q. At some point, Mr. Chowdhury, did you purchase the Sunset
Motel in Grandview Plaza, Kansas?
A. Right.
Q. Where is Grandview Plaza?
A. It's same town in Junction City. It's about 2 mile east of
Junction City.
Q. It's right next door to Junction City?
A. Right, yeah.
Q. When did you purchase the Sunset?
A. 1993. March 15.
Q. And were you also the manager of the Sunset?
A. Right.
Q. When did you start becoming the manager of the Sunset?
A. Same time, when I took over.
Q. What was your responsibilities as owner and manager of the
Sunset?
A. I used to take care of customer, management, take care of
the maid and supervise the whole thing.
Q. And where did you live at that time?
A. Premises, right behind the front desk. I had a apartment
right behind the front desk.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Q. And when a guest came in to the front desk to register,
would there be a procedure that you followed every time?
A. Yes.
Q. What would that procedure be?
A. When we tried to check, we gave the registration card, they
signed in, ID, how many days they're going to stay. We go from
there.
Q. What would you do when you checked their identification?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. What kind of ID would you require?
A. We check driver's license, picture ID.
Q. Why would you do that?
A. Make sure the address and all the information is correct.
Q. Would you always check guests' identification?
A. Most of the time. Unless we know somebody.
Q. Okay. And once you knew a guest, what would you do?
A. Usually then we don't check this that much.
Q. Usually you don't --
A. No.
Q. -- demand a identification then? Do you also have a daily
log that you file?
A. Right, yes.
Q. What was the purpose of that?
A. That, we keep it all day the people checked in the motel.
We keep the record for the whole day, all 24 hours' record.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Q. And what would that record include, what kind of
information?
A. Their name and how many days they going to stay, when they
going to check out and their unit number.
Q. Would the room number they stayed in be on that?
A. Room number, yes.
Q. Mr. Chowdhury, do you have a folder in front of you up
there?
A. No, I don't see it.
MR. GOELMAN: It's 'cause it's not there.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you look in there and see if you can find the
following exhibits, and I'm going to read off a bunch of them,
okay?
A. Okay.
Q. 211.
A. Yes.
Q. 215.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Mr. Chowdhury, you should be looking at the
exhibits, not just the list of exhibits.
A. Oh, okay.
Q. The actual exhibits up there.
1756.
A. Which one you want me to look at?
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Q. First start with 211. They should be in order up there.
A. I don't see it. I'm not getting it. Are you talking about
this paper right here?
Q. No, that's the list.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Oh. Sorry about that.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. That's okay. That's 211. These are all the rest of them.
A. Okay. Thanks.
Q. Could you examine all of those exhibits that are on your
desk now, Mr. Chowdhury. There should be 211, 215.
A. Yes.
Q. 1756.
You know, Mr. Chowdhury, why don't you look at your
screen and we'll just do it this way, okay?
Mr. Chowdhury, you see the screen underneath your --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. We'll just bring them up there, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. I'm showing you 211 now. I'm showing you 215 now.
A. No, it didn't come. It's coming now.
Q. I just want to take a look and see if you recognize these.
A. Yeah.
Q. I'll show you 1758. I'll show you 1759. 1760, 1756, 1763.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
1761, 1757. So altogether, that should have been 211, 215, and
1756 through 1763. Do you recognize all those documents as
business records of the Sunset Motel?
A. Yes, that's correct.
MR. GOELMAN: We'd move to admit 211, 215, and then
1756 through 1763.
MR. TIGAR: May I confer with counsel for a moment?
THE COURT: Yes, go ahead.
MR. TIGAR: I think we can expedite this.
No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. They're received, 211, 215,
1756 through 1763.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Chowdhury, do you know a man named Terry Nichols?
A. Yes, his name is here. I beg your pardon?
Q. Do you know a man named Terry Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know him?
A. Because he was my guest and he stayed at the motel.
Q. You've had a lot of guests at the Sunset over the years,
haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you specifically remember Terry Nichols?
A. He came and paid the rate, and I stopped and I talked to
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
him a little bit; and he's always asking for a good rate to
stay there. That's why he came.
Q. Did he stay at the Sunset for some number of weeks in 1994
and 1995?
A. Right, he stayed there about three or four weeks.
Q. Do you see Mr. Nichols anywhere in court?
A. Yeah, right there.
Q. Could you point him out, identify by an article of
clothing?
A. Right there in the middle.
MR. TIGAR: The identification is conceded, your
Honor. They know each other.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. When did you first meet the defendant, Mr. Chowdhury?
A. I think one day he came and paid the rent and he talked to
me and see if he could get a better -- he wanted to stay by the
week and he wants a better rate, and I gave him a better rate.
Q. Was that early in 1994?
A. I think so, yeah.
Q. When did you last see the defendant?
A. I don't remember. I think somewhere in '95.
Q. Somewhere in 1995?
A. Right.
Q. I want to show you what's been admitted 1756. And is that
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
a registration card for Mr. Nichols?
A. Right, that's correct.
Q. How long is this for?
A. This one he paid for one night. He checked in on March 2
and supposed to check out on March 3.
Q. Okay. I want to show you 1763. Is this also for one
night?
A. No, that one he paid by the week.
MR. GOELMAN: Kathi, could I get that on the jury's
screen?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Okay. This one is for a week, Mr. Chowdhury?
A. Right.
Q. How do we know that?
A. Because first he paid on the 3d and supposed to check out
on the 10. Then he extended from another week. This was from
10 to 17. So this card he stayed two weeks.
Q. And this was back in March of 1994?
A. Right; that's correct.
Q. Mr. Chowdhury, do you know Tim McVeigh?
A. No.
Q. Have you reviewed your motel records to determine if Tim
McVeigh was registered at all in your motel in December of
1994?
A. Yeah, he did.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Q. Okay. I want to show you what's already been admitted as
Government 215. And do you recognize that?
A. Which room number is that?
Q. Well, that's just the whole daily log, I think.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: 215, is that up on yours?
MR. GOELMAN: Sorry?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: That wasn't part of your list.
It wasn't admitted.
THE COURT: 215 was admitted.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I see his name here.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Do you know what date this was for?
A. This is for 12-16-94.
Q. Tim McVeigh was registered in the Sunset on December 16,
1994?
A. Right.
Q. Have you also reviewed your records to see if Tim McVeigh
was ever registered at the Sunset Motel for a longer period of
time?
A. No, I don't see it here.
Q. Okay. But have you seen registration cards in
Mr. McVeigh's name for a week-long stay?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Okay. I want you to take a look at 1758.
A. Yes. I see it here.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Q. Is that also a registration card in the name of Tim
McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did he stay on that occasion?
A. First he paid for one night, and then he change it to a
whole week.
Q. When is the beginning of his stay there?
A. One -- I think January, 19, '95.
Q. January 19, 1995?
A. Right.
Q. And when did he leave?
A. And he left on . . . supposed to leave on the 20th. Then
he extended. Look like he stayed here close to one month, up
to 1-27-95, checked out.
Q. 1-19 to 1-27-95?
A. Right.
Q. Is that closer to one week?
A. Yeah, almost. First day he paid by the day. That would
take him to 20th. Then from 20th, he went and paid for another
week.
Q. He extended?
A. To 27th.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, the parties have reached a
stipulation that the handwriting on the customer portion of
this document is Mr. Tim McVeigh's.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, that's our stipulation.
THE COURT: Which document are we on?
MR. GOELMAN: 1758, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. It's been agreed 1758, the
handwriting portion is that of Timothy McVeigh.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Chowdhury, can you see from this document what room
Mr. McVeigh stayed in from January 19 to January 27, 1995?
A. Look like 32. First he checked in 56 and moved to 32.
Q. So on the 19th he checked into Room 56?
A. Right, and then he changed it to 32.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I'd ask the Court to read a
stipulation agreed by the parties, Factual Stipulation 17.
Contained in a letter of 10-13-97.
THE COURT: Concerning January 20?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Members of the jury, there has
been an agreement here on the following facts: That "on the
evening of January 20, 1995, at approximately 8:05 p.m., Terry
Lynn Nichols was driving in Grandview Plaza, Kansas, when he
was stopped by Sergeant Randall McGaw of the Grandview Plaza
Police Department. Sergeant McGaw issued a ticket to Terry
Nichols for having a defective left headlight on the 1984 GMC
pickup truck he was driving. In response to Sergeant McGaw's
question, Terry Nichols gave his address Room 56 at the Sunset
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Motel in Grandview Plaza, Kansas. Terry Nichols was polite and
cooperative during his encounter with Sergeant McGaw. Terry
Nichols had the defective headlight fixed within 24 hours and
the ticket issued to him was then voided.
"Government Exhibit 1900 is a copy of the summons
issued to Terry L. Nichols on the night of January 20, 1995.
It lists Terry Nichols' address as Room 56, Sunset Motel,
Grandview Plaza Kansas, and bears the signature of Terry Lynn
Nichols."
Has this been agreed?
MR. WOODS: Yes, that has been our stipulation.
Sergeant McGaw is not available as a witness.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor. We would move to
admit 1900.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: And it's received pursuant to the
stipulation.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Chowdhury, do you have any independent recollection of
whether Terry Lynn Nichols was staying with Tim McVeigh for a
week in January 1995 at the Sunset?
A. No.
Q. You testified that you last saw Mr. Nichols in 1995; is
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
that right?
A. Right.
Q. I want you to take a look at Government Exhibit 1759 and
tell me what information that reflects.
A. That was February 3, 1995, he checked in for the week.
Q. So he checked in on February 3?
A. Right.
Q. And how long did he stay there?
A. 10, February 10, 1995, checked out there.
Q. Okay. I'm going to show what's been admitted as Government
1760 now, and tell me what dates that reflects for Mr. Nichols'
stay.
A. That's February 12, 1995, to February 16, 1995.
Q. Now, I want to show you page 13 of Government Exhibit 1888.
Do you see any calls to the Sunset Motel on
February 12, 1995, on 2-12?
A. Yes, I see, uh-huh.
Q. Do you see five calls there?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And what was the number of the Sunset Motel in
February 1995?
A. 238-4181 and Area Code 913.
Q. Can you tell where these five calls came from,
Mr. Chowdhury?
A. Let me see. Say from Hilltop Motel.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Q. Where?
A. Kingsman (sic), Arizona.
Q. Do you have any idea of the identity of any of the
registered guests at the Hilltop Motel in Kingman, Arizona, on
February 12, 1995?
A. I don't see it here.
Q. Excuse me?
A. I don't see it here.
Q. And you don't know from your own independent knowledge?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I'd ask the Court now to
read Factual Stipulation No. 11, which applies to Government
1903.
THE COURT: All right. "It's been agreed that
Government Exhibit 1903 is a guest registration card in the
name of Tim McVeigh from the Hilltop Motel in Kingman, Arizona,
for a period of time beginning on February 12, 1995."
Been agreed?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, that is our agreement.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Government
1903.
THE COURT: I take it there's no objection since it's
stipulated.
MR. WOODS: No.
THE COURT: Received.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you read the name on this registration card,
Mr. Chowdhury? I know it's not one of your business records.
A. It's Tim McVeigh.
Q. I want to show you page 14 from Government Exhibit 1888 now
and have you look at phone calls on February 13, 1995.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see any calls to your motel on that date?
A. Right. Uh-huh. Let me see. Yeah, top one.
Q. How many?
A. One, two I see here.
Q. And are they also from the Hilltop Motel in Kingman,
Arizona?
A. Correct. Correct.
Q. Mr. Chowdhury, you've indicated that the usual practice of
the Sunset Motel was to ask each guest for identification; is
that right?
A. Most of the time.
Q. Do you know for a fact whether or not you always asked
Mr. Nichols for identification?
A. First time when he checked in, yeah.
Q. After that, the first time that he checked in in February,
1994 -- or March, 1994, on subsequent trips did you ask him?
A. I don't remember. I don't think so. Once we know the
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
customer, then we usually don't ask second time and third time.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols ever tell you that he wanted to stay at the
Sunset, but that he wanted to use a different name for himself
at the Sunset?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols ever fill out a registration name --
registration card in a name other than his own?
A. One time I think he rented room for his friend.
Q. Okay. And who was working at the desk at that time?
A. Me.
Q. You were?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Will you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the
jury about that time that Mr. Nichols filled out a registration
card for a friend.
A. Yes. Yeah, he did.
Q. Okay. Tell us about that time. What do you remember about
that?
A. I don't remember the exact time, but he rented a room for
his friend.
Q. What did he say to you?
A. He say his friend is coming to stay so he needs a room, so
he -- I think he sign his name plus paid for it, paid for the
room.
Q. He signed his friend's name?
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
A. Right.
Q. Do you remember -- you said Mr. Nichols paid for the room?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you remember if Mr. Nichols took the key to the room?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember if this friend of Mr. Nichols ever came
into the office of the Sunset?
A. I didn't see him.
Q. Do you remember seeing this friend anywhere at the motel?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Do you know what the exact date was, Mr. Chowdhury,
from your own memory?
A. No.
Q. I want you to take a look at Government's 1757.
Tell me if you recognize that as a registration from
the Sunset Motel?
A. Yeah, that is Sunset Motel registration card.
Q. Whose handwriting is that down at the bottom?
A. That's mine.
Q. And did you recognize the handwriting on the rest of the
registration card?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, the parties have reached a
stipulation on handwriting that the customer information on
this card is the handwriting of Mr. Terry Lynn Nichols.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, that is our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right. Then that is accepted as
agreed fact.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Chowdhury, what date did Mr. Nichols check in under a
name that was not his own?
A. I don't see his name here.
Q. Right. What date is this registration card?
A. Oh. That registration is 11-5, 1994.
Q. And do you know anyone named Joe Kyle?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know if that's even a real person?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether or not there is a road in Lum,
Michigan, called Decker?
A. No.
Q. Now, after you gave Mr. Nichols the room key and he paid
for the room for his friend?
A. Right, that's what he told me.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you where he was planning on meeting
this friend?
A. No.
Q. Do you know where Terry Nichols himself stayed on the night
that he reserved a room for his friend?
A. I have no idea.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Q. Before coming to court, have you reviewed your registration
cards from the night of November 5, 1994?
A. Right.
Q. And did you find any registration card in the name of Terry
Nichols himself that night?
A. No.
Q. Did you also look to find any registration card in the name
of Ted Parker?
A. I tried, but there is no name.
Q. Did you also look for the names "Terry Havens," "Joe
Havens," "Mike Havens," and "Daryl Bridges"?
A. No.
Q. Did you look for these names?
A. Yeah, I did.
Q. And did you find them?
A. No.
Q. And you said you don't remember what time Mr. Nichols asked
to check in for a friend?
A. No.
Q. Do you know how long it takes to drive from Royal,
Arkansas, to Junction City, Kansas?
A. I don't know.
Q. I have one final exhibit that I want to show,
Mr. Chowdhury. It's Government Exhibit 1764. It's not yet in
evidence. Now, have you reviewed Government Exhibit 1764 and
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
compared the information contained on it with the information
from the registration cards from the Sunset Motel?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And does the information in Government Exhibit 1764
accurately reflect the information contained in all your
different business records?
A. This is for what? Westloop? That's in Kansas?
Q. Mr. Chowdhury, did you compare the information on the
registration cards with the information on this chart?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And is it the same information?
A. Right.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1764, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: For demonstrative purposes, no objection,
your Honor.
THE COURT: I take it --
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, that's what it's offered for, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's received for the limited
purpose stated.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Okay. Mr. Chowdhury, when Terry Nichols stayed at the
Sunset back in March 1994, what name did he register under?
A. Terry Nichols.
Mesbah Chowdhury - Direct
Q. And when he stayed at the Sunset those four times in 1995,
February, March, 1995, what name did he use?
A. Same name, Terry Nichols.
Q. And on November 5, 1994 --
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor, asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled. This is demonstrative.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. On November 5, 1994, what name did Terry Nichols put down
on the registration card that he filled out?
A. About his friend's name?
Q. Right.
A. Yeah, that's a different name.
Q. What name is it?
A. I don't see it here. Joe Kyle.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you. I have nothing further, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Chowdhury.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers that's
been appointed to help out Terry Nichols here.
Can you help me, sir, with a little bit how you keep
Mesbah Chowdhury - Cross
your records at the motel. Do you have a time stamp for the
time that people arrive?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. And when you -- we saw that sheet that's your daily
sheet?
A. Right.
Q. And you list there room by room; is that correct?
A. Yeah, that we make the following day, like everybody checks
in the motel, who stay for that day. We write down everybody's
name for 24 hours.
Q. Oh. So you take all the cards from the previous day?
A. Especially the people check out, we don't put their name
there. Only the people that's going to stay next or is staying
by the week, you'll see those name there.
Q. I see. And do you remember what time Mr. Nichols came in
on the 5th of November?
A. I don't remember exact time.
Q. Okay. Do you remember whether it was daylight or dark or
anything?
Not at all. You see a lot of people, don't you?
A. He's been long time. It's hard to keep track.
Q. Okay. You mentioned that the -- you manage the entire
motel; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you also manage the maid service; correct?
Mesbah Chowdhury - Cross
A. Right.
Q. Now, when -- the rooms are cleaned each day?
A. Yes. Well, not the weekly people. The weekly people we
give them like twice-a-week service. Most of the daily people,
they get service every day.
Q. When the person in the motel -- when the maid that's
cleaning the room is cleaning it, do you instruct her to -- or
him -- to wipe down all of the surfaces and dust thoroughly and
so on, to make the room presentable for the next guest?
A. Yeah, that's their duty, yeah.
Q. And in your experience, is that something that's standard
in well-run motels like yours; that is, that the person is
supposed to get the room clean and wipe off all of those
surfaces so that you get a clean room for the next person
that's there?
A. Right.
MR. GOELMAN: Objection, foundation, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. You can answer. Is that your experience?
A. Can you repeat that question again, please.
Q. Yeah. Is it your experience in the motel industry that
that's the right thing to do --
A. Right.
Q. -- that is, to wipe down those surfaces and clean it for
Mesbah Chowdhury - Cross
the next guest?
A. Right.
Q. Now, you were shown some telephone records. Do you
remember looking at those five telephone calls?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you happen to notice whether or not any of those calls
were completed? That is, how long the people talked, did you
happen to notice that on the exhibit?
A. Usually our phone, we don't keep it. It's call
computerized. The computer give you the time and stuff.
Q. I'm talking about -- remember you were shown a little while
ago a list of telephone calls -- I'm sorry?
A. I didn't pay attention to the time.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, sir, I appreciate
your help.
THE COURT: Anything else of this witness?
MR. GOELMAN: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. May he be excused, then,
agreed?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. We'll call FBI Agent
Mesbah Chowdhury - Cross
Gary Witt.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Gary Witt affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: It's Gary C. Witt, W-I-T-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Mr. Witt, you're an agent with the FBI?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Children?
A. Two.
Q. How long have you been with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation?
A. 27 years.
Q. And what office are you currently assigned?
A. To the Kansas City division in Kansas City, Missouri.
Q. What do your duties at this time include?
Gary Witt - Direct
A. At this time I'm working domestic terrorism cases along
with some civil rights matters.
Q. Now, did you at some point in time in the year 1994 --
excuse me, 1995 or thereafter participate in certain roles in
connection with the Oklahoma City bombing investigation?
A. I did.
Q. And did one of those roles take you to Royal, Arkansas?
A. It did.
Q. Were you asked to go to the residence of Roger Moore?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Where is that located?
A. Approximately 6, 7 miles west of Hot Springs, Arkansas, on
State Highway 270.
Q. And were you also asked to go to a location that was
provided to you where his van was reportedly stashed following
a reported armed robbery?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And generally speaking, where was that location in
connection to either Mr. Moore's residence or to Royal,
Arkansas?
A. It was in a very secluded area off a narrow graveled
roadway. It was a side road. It was tree-choked, brush-lined
area.
Q. Now, are you familiar with the Sunset Motel in Junction
City, Kansas, or Grandview Plaza?
Gary Witt - Direct
A. I am.
Q. And tell us your familiarity with that motel.
A. It's on a road, a frontage road to I -- Interstate 70.
It's Flint Hills Boulevard. It would be an area of probably 2
to 3 miles west of Junction City proper in this small township
of Grandview Plaza.
Q. Now, let me show you what has been received in evidence as
Exhibit 1757.
You see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You see the date of this registration?
A. I'd have to get my glasses here.
Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. 11-5-94.
Q. And did that date correspond with the date you had been
provided for the reported armed robbery of Roger Moore?
A. It does.
Q. And did you have occasion to -- or were you asked by the
FBI to determine the distance, both mileage and driving time,
between the place in which the Roger Moore's van was reportedly
stashed and the Sunset Motel?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you do that?
A. Yes.
Gary Witt - Direct
Q. And when did you do that?
A. On September 6, 1997.
Q. And tell us about how you went about that task.
A. Well, I started from the point of where the van was
recovered, then followed the roadways to 270 west. Do you wish
me to trace the route I followed?
Q. If we're going to do that, let me show you what is not in
evidence as Exhibit 1899 and ask you if you can identify that.
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. It's a map depicting parts of the states of Arkansas,
Oklahoma, and Kansas, which also includes the cities of Royal,
Arkansas, and Junction City, Arkansas (sic).
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, United States would offer
Exhibit 1899.
THE COURT: Did you mean Junction City, Arkansas?
THE WITNESS: Excuse me. I do not. I mean Junction
City, Kansas.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Agent Witt, my name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the
lawyers appointed to help Mr. Nichols.
In addition to this map, there are some numbers over
Gary Witt - Voir Dire
on the side. Do you see that, sir? The total distance, total
time?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And you're prepared to tell us today how that
distance and time was computed?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that one of the things you're expected to do?
A. That's my understanding.
MR. TIGAR: On that understanding, your Honor, no
objection.
THE COURT: All right. 17 --
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: 18.
MR. TIGAR: 1899.
THE COURT: 1899 -- thank you -- is received.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Agent Witt, if you would, the map is a little bright, so if
you would take the pen that's on your desk there. Do you see
the black pen?
A. Yes.
Q. Place it under your desk and directly on the screen. Place
the marker where you began, approximately where you began near
Royal, Arkansas.
A. Yes.
Gary Witt - Direct
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I'll change the color.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. And could you show us how you drove from the distance where
the van was to the Sunset Motel in Grandview Plaza.
A. Okay. I proceeded west on Arkansas Highway 270 to the
junction of Arkansas Highway 71 and followed that north towards
Ft. Smith. Upon approaching Ft. Smith, there was a bypass,
Interstate 540. I took that northbound to I-40, followed I-40
west through -- into Oklahoma to the Muskogee Turnpike,
followed that turnpike to Tulsa, through Tulsa, and proceeded
westbound to the Cimarron Turnpike, at that point to 177 where
I -- through Ponca City, Oklahoma, and then northbound. That
became Highway 77, Arkansas City, continued northbound on 77,
El Dorado, Marion, Herington, past Geary Lake, to I-70,
proceeded east on 70 to the Sunset Motel, which was Exit 300, a
short distance on 70, and then hit the frontage road and went
back westbound to the Sunset Motel on Flint Hills Boulevard.
Q. Why did you select this particular route that you described
to the jury?
A. I -- according to -- I consulted a Rand McNally, and it
appeared to be the most direct route.
Q. And how long did it take you to drive the -- from this
location in Royal, Arkansas, to Grandview Plaza, Sunset Motel?
A. Approximately 9 1/2 hours. 9 hours and 36 minutes to be
exact.
Gary Witt - Direct
Q. And how many stops did you make along the way?
A. Three.
Q. And how much -- what was the mileage between Royal,
Arkansas, and the Sunset Motel?
A. 518 miles, approximately.
Q. If a person were to leave Royal, Arkansas, at 11:00 a.m. on
(sic) the morning, would they have sufficient time, according
to your calculation, to reach the Sunset Motel the same day?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Now, are you familiar with the location of Kent, Ohio?
A. Yes, I am.
MR. RYAN: We're finished with this exhibit, thank
you.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. And where is it located, generally?
A. It's just outside of Akron, north and east of Akron, which
is in northeast Ohio.
Q. And were you also asked by the FBI to consult a mileage
map, a Rand McNally map, and determine what the distance would
be from Royal, Arkansas, to Kent, Ohio?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you determine that to be?
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. Object to him
telling us on a map that's not in evidence.
MR. RYAN: I think he's free under 803(17).
Gary Witt - Direct
THE COURT: You can calculate, but is this distance
calculated according to a map?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: We ought to know what map.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. What map did you consult?
A. 1997 Rand McNally Road Atlas.
Q. Mr. Witt, what was the mileage, according to the 1997 Rand
McNally Road Map from Royal, Arkansas, to Kent, Ohio?
A. Royal, Arkansas, to Kent, Ohio, just over 900 miles, 909,
910. 909 is what I came up with.
MR. RYAN: Now, your Honor, we would ask at this time
that stipulation with respect to, that's dated October 18,
1997, with respect to Mr. McVeigh in a gun show in the
nights --
THE COURT: What number is that?
MR. RYAN: I can hand it to you -- your Honor, I don't
have a number on it.
THE COURT: Well, I have them by number.
MR. RYAN: Excuse me, 21.
THE COURT: Okay. It's been stipulated, agreed, and
therefore we accept that "Timothy J. McVeigh was at the Niles
Gun Show outside Akron, Ohio, on Saturday, November 5, 1994.
Akron, Ohio, is approximately 235 miles from Lockport, New
York.
Gary Witt - Direct
"Timothy McVeigh was a registered guest that weekend
at the Knight's Inn Motel in Kent, Ohio, a nearby city to
Akron."
That was agreed.
MR. WOODS: Yes, that is our stipulation, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. At some point, Mr. Witt, were you also asked to go to the
storage shed at Industrial Park in Herington, Kansas?
A. I was.
Q. And when were you asked to do that?
A. October 22, 1997.
Q. And which storage shed were you asked to look at?
A. Storage Space No. 2 at the Mini Storage Shed Partnership in
Herington, Kansas.
Q. And how did you gain access to that storage shed?
A. I first consulted the bookkeeper, Helen Mitchell, to
identify the current renter of that space; and then we in turn
got in touch with that renter, and she gave us access to that
space, voluntarily.
Q. And what did you do when you arrived there?
A. The renter, Marilyn McMillan, unlocked the space, and I
inspected the interior of that space.
Q. And what did you observe on the floor?
Gary Witt - Direct
A. Observed these three semicircle patterns, rust-colored,
that were in direct line with each other across the width of
that space.
Q. I'm going to show you what's been admitted into evidence as
Exhibit 2054.
Can you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us what we're looking at there on the floor or
what you observed.
A. That replicates exactly what I observed. These patterns
were partially obliterated, but at least half of them were
apparent. The outline was slightly irregular, but it was a
rust-colored demarcation in those three places.
Q. What did you do with respect to these three semicircles
that you saw on the floor of the shed?
A. I measured dimensions of each of them.
Q. And tell us about how you went about measuring these
semicircles.
A. Used just a contractor's grade tape, and I came up with
dimension of 22 1/2 inches for -- which was identical for each
of them. But it was difficult getting a precise measurement
because the lines were not precise. They were -- they just
were irregular, but that was approximate.
Q. Now, following the measurements at the Herington shed, were
you asked to go to VP Racing Fuels?
Gary Witt - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. What were you asked to do there?
A. At the VP Racing Fuel in Manhattan, I measured a standard
barrel that was labeled blue barrel nitromethane racing fuel.
Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 2097. It's
been admitted into evidence. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. How does that compare with what you viewed at VP Racing
Fuels?
A. It's exactly the same.
Q. What did you do with respect to this barrel of nitromethane
at VP Racing Fuels?
A. I measured the outside and inside dimensions of the barrel
to determine the diameter, as well as the height of that barrel
from rim top to bottom rim.
Q. And what did your measurements reveal?
A. With respect to the outside measurements, on the diameter,
I came up with 23 inches. The inside measurements were 22 3/8
inches, and the height of that barrel was 34 3/8 inches.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, Mr. Witt.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
MR. TIGAR: Is he done?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello, again, Agent.
Gary Witt - Cross
A. Hello.
Q. When were you assigned to calculate the mileage from this
place in Royal, Arkansas, to Junction City?
A. I accomplished it on September 6. I probably had the
assignment a few days before that, maybe a week.
Q. And when you went to Royal, Arkansas, did someone show you
the place where you were to start your journey?
A. Yes.
Q. Who showed you?
A. An FBI agent from the Hot Springs resident agency of the
FBI.
Q. And what was that person's name?
A. Mark Jessie.
Q. And did you meet with Mr. Moore?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you meet with Ms. Anderson?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you meet Mrs. Moore?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did Mr. Jessie describe for you the individual that Roger
Moore said he had confronted on the morning of November the
5th, 1994?
A. He did not.
Q. Did you review the 302's to determine what the description
of that person was?
Gary Witt - Cross
A. I did not.
Q. Did you know from any source that the person Mr. Moore had
described was 6 feet tall, 185 pounds, bearded and smelly?
A. I did not know that.
Q. Did you have any of those details?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, you testified that the -- you also made a calculation
of the distance from that location there to someplace in Ohio;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were able to do that by using a Rand McNally map;
is that correct?
A. Yes, the mileage charts on the Rand McNally map.
Q. Now, are you also familiar with a CD-ROM that you can buy
for 29.95 that will tell you the mileage from anyplace in
America to any other place in America?
A. I understand there's one available. I'm not that familiar
with it.
Q. Why is it that the FBI decided to take two days of your
time to have you drive the distance to calculate, as opposed to
buying the 29.95 CD-ROM?
MR. RYAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, you're talking about two different
things.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Gary Witt - Cross
Q. Agent Witt, are you aware that -- from your knowledge that
it's possible to buy a map, a CD-ROM map that would permit you
to calculate the distance from Royal, Arkansas, to Junction
City?
A. I understand there's such an item available.
Q. All right. And can you -- do you have any understanding as
to why the FBI asked you to drive the distance rather than use
the CD-ROM?
A. I do not know that.
Q. What kind of a vehicle did you drive it in?
A. A 1997 Mercury Grand Marquis.
Q. And do you have any -- did you have any information that
Mr. Nichols ever owned a Mercury Marquis?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, you stated that you took the -- a couple of turnpikes;
is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. The Muskogee and the Cherokee?
A. Cimarron.
Q. Cimarron. And are those toll roads?
A. Yes.
Q. Are there tollbooths along there?
A. Yes.
Q. Are those tollbooths manned by people?
A. Yes.
Gary Witt - Cross
Q. Did you stop, try to ask whether or not they kept any
records of the vehicles of any kind -- of the vehicles passing
through their tollbooths?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you know if anyone else from the FBI attempted to obtain
any records as to who had passed through those tollbooths?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. Do you know of any kind of security cameras or other
security systems that exist, if they do, on any of the toll
roads?
A. I'm not personally aware of that.
Q. Now, you say that the drive took you about 9 hours and 36
minutes; is that correct?
A. Correct, yes.
Q. And you started at about what time in the morning?
A. Close to 10:30. 10:20 something. Close to 10:30.
Q. And why did you select that time?
A. I understood that it approximated the time of maybe
departure from that area by the robbery suspect.
Q. And other than being shown a location by Agent Jessie and
asking to start at a particular time, did you review any other
records concerning this episode?
A. I did not.
Q. Now, you also stated that you had gone to the storage shed
in Herington, Kansas; correct?
Gary Witt - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is a storage shed rented -- do you understand had
been rented in the name of Shawn Rivers?
A. I understood that.
Q. And did you know who Shawn Rivers was?
A. I had a belief who he was.
Q. Well, you've looked -- you know from the handwriting on the
storage agreement and from other investigation --
A. Right.
Q. -- that that's Tim McVeigh; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you stated that you had measured the circles that are
on the floor of the shed; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you stated that the -- that they were somewhat
irregular; is that right?
A. The border, the out -- the borders, yes, they were --
Q. Now, when you say "irregular," do you mean that the --
there was not a rust pattern for the full diameter of whatever
it is that had rested there?
A. There was a --
Q. Is that what you mean by "irregular"?
A. No. I mean just like the border area, the rim area of that
particular semicircular pattern, which was at least half of
that circle, was intact, was apparent. But I'm just talking
Gary Witt - Cross
about the edges of that outline. The edges is what I'm talking
about that was -- that were not precise, it was not --
Q. How wide a mark did this rust pattern leave on the floor?
A. How wide? Approximately, probably 5/8 of an inch.
Q. 5/8 of an inch in width?
A. The rim, the so-called rim area.
Q. Uh-huh. And you said that the -- that what you measured
was 22 1/2 inches; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, did you --
A. Approximate.
Q. Now, did you measure center to center or edge to edge?
A. Edge to edge, inside measurements.
Q. The inside measurements?
A. Correct.
Q. And from the inside measurement of 22 1/2 to the outside
was 5/8 of an inch?
A. Yes. Approximately.
Q. Now, what is --
A. Approximately.
Q. What is 2 1/2 plus 5/8?
A. That would be 23 1/8.
Q. And the outer edge of the barrels that you saw was 23; is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Gary Witt - Cross
Q. So you're testifying that the outer edge of the mark that
you saw was 23 1/8?
A. Approximately. Again because the borders were not that
precise.
Q. Now, when you went to do these measurements, did you happen
also to take the measurements of the shed itself?
A. I did the length, the length of that shed. The width, I
can't recall if I did the width.
Q. Well --
A. 'Cause I understood it had been done before, so I did not
make detailed measurements of the interior.
Q. How far from the door of the shed was the closest edge of
the rust mark that you saw?
A. 3 feet 6 1/2 inches.
Q. All right. And how far from the edge of the circle that's
farthest away from the door was the rear chipboard wall of the
shed?
A. 4 feet 7 1/2 inches is what I recall.
Q. And you took those measurements, yourself; right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. So those -- and you took those with the same carpenter's
tape that you used to measure the circles themselves; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in relationship to the door of the shed --
A. Yes.
Gary Witt - Cross
Q. -- you say that these were 3-foot --
A. -- 6 1/2. It varied. It graduated each barrel -- 3 feet 6
1/2 to 3 feet 7 1/2.
Q. Now, if I were to stand in the door of that shed and look
and if I were to walk directly towards the rear wall --
A. Yes.
Q. -- would I encounter one of those rust marks?
A. Yes, you would.
Q. That's because the barrels are offset; that is to say,
there seemed to be two of them over close to what would be the
left-hand side as you go and one over towards the right-hand
side; is that what you observed?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you went to VP Racing Fuels to measure these
barrels, did you meet with Mr. Tipton?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And in your discussion with Mr. Tipton, did you talk
about -- with him -- the way in which rust develops on the rims
of their barrels?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you discuss with him what use -- how often VP Racing
Fuels uses their barrels before they discard them?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you find out from him -- this was before you made
your -- was it before you made your measurements or afterwards?
Gary Witt - Cross
A. It was after. After.
Q. And did you observe some barrels at VP Racing Fuels that
had rusted areas on the top?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Tipton whether or not VP Racing
Fuel barrels that are in actual use have the -- a rust
formation on either their top or bottom surface?
A. I did not have that discussion with him.
Q. Did you examine the VP Racing Fuel warehouse?
A. No. I did not.
Q. Did you see anyplace where barrels were being stored there?
A. I did not.
Q. So you did not have an opportunity to observe whether or
not VP Racing barrels are stored, in their facility, in a place
where they would make marks on the ground; is that fair to say?
A. That's fair to say.
Q. And did Mr. Tipton then also tell you what VP Racing Fuel
does with barrels when they have reached the end of their
useful life so far as VP Racing Fuel is concerned?
A. He did.
Q. Pardon?
A. He did.
Q. And he told you they sent them out to a place where they're
sold to the public; correct?
A. No, in totality. He has other avenues that he follows.
Gary Witt - Cross
Q. One of the avenues that he has is that he releases these
things out to a place that sells them to the public; right?
A. When they're badly damaged, caved in and no longer have any
functional use; correct.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much. I have no further
questions.
MR. RYAN: One further question, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Witness excused?
MR. RYAN: One further question, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Are these metal barrels at VP Racing Fuels?
A. Absolutely.
MR. RYAN: That's all I have.
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry, your Honor. We were talking
and we didn't hear the question.
THE COURT: Were they metal barrels for the racing
fuel, and the answer was yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Did you conduct any tests at the location in Herington,
Kansas, to determine when those marks were put on there?
A. I did not.
Gary Witt - Recross
Q. And are you aware of any tests that were conducted?
A. I'm not aware of any.
MR. TIGAR: No further questions.
MR. RYAN: No further questions.
THE COURT: Is the agent excused, or is he going to be
back?
MR. RYAN: He is excused.
MR. TIGAR: Excused.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: We call Cheryl Smith.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Cheryl Smith affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Cheryl K. Smith, S-M-I-T-H.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Cheryl Smith - Direct
Q. How are you?
A. Okay.
Q. Miss Smith, where do you live?
A. Manhattan, Kansas.
Q. What do you do there?
A. I own and operate a Mail Boxes Etc컴 store.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Children?
A. Two.
Q. Now, tell the members of the jury what Mail Boxes Etc컴 is.
A. It's a franchise where we package and ship things UPS,
through the post office, through freight. We also have private
mailboxes for citizens to come in and rent to get their mail or
receive packages there. We do faxing. Several different types
of services like that, copies.
Q. And when did you begin your business, Mail Boxes Etc컴, in
Manhattan, Kansas?
A. In December 1993.
Q. And is Mail Boxes Etc컴 located in a mall?
A. It's in a shopping center.
Q. And what do you call -- how is that shopping center
referred to?
A. Westloop Shopping Center.
Q. Did there come a time, point in time that you rented a
Cheryl Smith - Direct
mailbox to Terry Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe for the jury what happened with respect to the
renting of that mailbox.
A. He just came in one morning and filled out two different
forms, one for us and one that's required by the post office;
and he showed us two forms of identification, driver's license
and a passport, with his name and his signature on them, and we
rented him a box.
Q. Did you handle that transaction, yourself?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you what's been marked for identification as
Exhibit 1920. Do you see this document?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this a business record of yours?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What is this document?
A. That's the Mail Boxes service agreement with us personally,
basically stating that they have to pay their box rent in
advance and pay for COD things and what they can and can't use
the mailbox for.
Q. This agreement is between you and which customer?
A. Terry Nichols.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Exhibit 1920.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
Cheryl Smith - Direct
THE COURT: 1920 received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, explain -- I don't know how easy it is for the jury to
see this document, but can you take that pen that's on your
desk there and circle the name of the customer, or circle --
A. There we go.
Q. And the name placed there on the form is what?
A. Terry Nichols.
Q. What address is given, Miss Smith?
A. It's hard to read it on here.
THE COURT: Perhaps the document itself would be
easier.
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Okay. It's 3616 North Van Dyke Road, in
Decker, Michigan.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. We'll make it easier on you. I'll give you some documents
here.
A. Okay.
Q. Does that make it a little easier for you to read?
A. Yes.
Q. Again, what is the address provided?
A. It's 3616 North Van Dyke Road in Decker, Michigan.
Q. Now, were you provided with a home phone number?
A. No.
Cheryl Smith - Direct
Q. Or work phone number?
A. No.
Q. Now, what essentially is the purpose of this document?
What's its function?
A. It just basically states the rules for use of the mailbox,
things like CODs have to be paid in advance. The payment for
the use of the box has to be paid in advance.
Q. Which box was Mr. Nichols assigned?
A. 197.
Q. Had that -- how long had you been in existence at the time
of this document?
THE COURT: Has she been in existence?
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. How old are you, Miss Smith?
A. 36.
Q. What year did you tell us your business began?
A. In 1993.
Q. And what is the date of this agreement?
A. October 24, 1994.
Q. So approximately how long had Mail Boxes Etc컴 in Manhattan
been in existence prior to this agreement with Mr. Nichols?
A. Not quite a year.
Q. Had Box 197, the box you assigned to Mr. Nichols, been
previously assigned to a customer?
A. No.
Cheryl Smith - Direct
Q. Now, let me show you what's been marked for identification
purposes as Exhibit 2033. And you might look through that
folder on your desk there for perhaps a more legible copy.
2033. It's the postal agreement.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, can you tell us what Exhibit 2033 is?
A. It's PS Form 1583, which is an application for delivery of
mail through an agent. So we're the agent.
Q. And with whom is this agreement entered?
A. It's with Terry Nichols.
Q. And is this a business record of Mail Boxes Etc컴?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Exhibit 2033.
MR. TIGAR: Subject to our earlier discussion, no
objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 2033 is received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Miss Smith, did you have a custom and practice with respect
to what you told customers when they appeared to open a mailbox
at Mail Boxes Etc컴?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your custom and practice?
A. We usually, the first thing we usually do is ask them if
they want to use it for business reasons or personal reasons.
Because on the form, there are several boxes that you do not
Cheryl Smith - Direct
need to fill out that are asking for the name of a business or
a name of a corporation that do not need to be filled out if
you're just using it for personal reasons.
Q. And do you do that for every customer?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you do that for Terry Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. This mailbox agreement: Is it dated the same date as the
initial agreement between you and Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. And that date again is October 24, 1994.
Now, do we have more zoomed version of this document,
for the jury?
Okay. Could you tell us what information -- again, I
know this is hard to read, so feel free to use the original
document there -- but tell us what information was supplied by
Mr. Nichols on this document.
A. His name and his address is the part that he filled in.
And then we actually look at the two forms of identification
that they're required to show us.
Q. According to this document, was this mailbox opened for
personal reasons, or for business reasons?
A. It looks like it's for personal reasons.
Q. And how do you know that?
A. Because he put -- when he filled out -- for the name of a
Cheryl Smith - Direct
firm or corporation or the business address, he put not
applicable, or "NA."
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, the parties have reached a
stipulation with respect to both Exhibit 1920 and 2033 that
these are in fact the handwriting of Terry Nichols.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. That is our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right. We accept that agreement.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, what is the -- looking at this document here, we see
some information with respect to a -- what is that -- a
Michigan driver's license?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is the other form of identification?
A. U.S. passport.
Q. What was provided by Mr. Nichols on this date for you to
verify this information?
A. He actually had to show me his driver's license and his
passport.
Q. And did he do that?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Now, let me show you what's been marked for
identification -- excuse me. This is actually in evidence,
Exhibit 1818. Can you -- I know it's a little difficult, but
can you read the numbers of the driver's license?
A. It's 2427 -- it's hard to see actually on the driver's
Cheryl Smith - Direct
license; but on the form here, I wrote 9. 56, and the next
number's difficult to read, but I wrote 4, 258.
Q. Does it appear that the number that's provided on this
driver's license is the same number provided on your mailbox
form?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Now, you see in this photograph of Mr. Nichols he is
wearing glasses and has a beard. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, were you also, in addition to this driver's license,
provided with a passport?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Now, let me show you what has not been admitted but what
has been marked as Exhibit 2029 for identification purposes.
Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you read the identification number off of this
passport? Don't do it, but can you?
A. Yes, I can.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer the picture page
of Mr. Nichols' passport as Exhibit 2029.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 2029 is received, may be
shown.
BY MR. RYAN:
Cheryl Smith - Direct
Q. Now, if you would, Miss Smith, would you compare the number
on Mr. Nichols' passport photograph to the number that was
provided to you with respect to the postal form.
A. It's the same.
Q. And you see in this photograph Mr. Nichols has no glasses
and no beard.
A. Correct.
Q. Now, do you recall on October 24, 1994, which -- or how
Mr. Nichols appeared at that time?
A. I couldn't be for sure.
Q. Did he have glasses?
A. I couldn't be for sure.
Q. Did he have a beard?
A. I couldn't be for sure.
Q. Okay. When did you next see or talk to Mr. Terry Nichols?
A. It was just a few days later.
Q. And tell us what that was about.
A. He came in and asked if he could pay for an additional
three months and get the one month free, because we have a
policy that if you rent for three months at a time, you don't
get any extra months; but if you rent for six months, you get
the seventh month free. And if you rent for a year, you get
three months after that year is up for free. You don't have to
pay for those months. And he came in and asked if he could get
the month free if he went ahead and paid for the extra three
Cheryl Smith - Direct
months that would require the six months in advance.
Q. What did you tell Mr. Nichols?
A. We said that would be fine.
Q. Any further conversation take place that day?
A. He asked if he could -- if we would forward mail to him
because he wasn't permanently in Manhattan at that time.
Q. The only address you'd received from him was the Michigan
address?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. What did you tell him about that?
A. We just asked him, you know, if he was -- if he had planned
on being in our area, and he said he had planned on being in
that area. But he didn't have a permanent place to live yet.
Q. Did he provide with you an address for you to forward mail
at that time?
A. No.
Q. When did you --
A. He took our business card at that time and left a $20
deposit to forward the mail, because according to the
agreement, at the top it says that any mail that comes to our
business cannot be forwarded by filling a typical form at the
post office, just to forward your personal mail from your house
to another house if you move. So he would have to -- we would
have to put in a new envelope, put new postage on it, and
readdress it to the forwarding place.
Cheryl Smith - Direct
Q. Did there come another time that you spoke to Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell us about that.
A. He called us on the phone. He called me -- I was the
person that answered the phone -- and asked if we would go
ahead and forward his mail that day. And that was in November.
Q. Did he provide you with an address?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. I'm going to show you now what's been marked for
identification as Exhibit 1887. It's not in evidence.
A. Okay.
Q. Can you identify this document?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is this document?
A. It's my handwriting that the -- the note that I took while
I was on the phone with him. I wrote down his name, the
address where he wanted us to forward it to.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Government would offer Exhibit
1887.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1887 received, may be shown.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. And again, Miss Smith, would you tell the jury what this
document reflects.
A. It reflects the address where I forwarded his mail to and
Cheryl Smith - Direct
that it does show that he did have a $20 deposit. And I
subtracted the $2.90 that priority mail was at that time to
forward his mail with.
Q. Now, did there come a point in time when Mr. Nichols
advised you and your people in your business that he wanted to
use Box 197 there at Mail Boxes Etc컴 for another name besides
his own?
A. He didn't advise us that he was using it for another name
besides his own, but he said it was okay for another person to
receive mail there.
Q. I'm sorry. Say again what he said.
A. That it was okay -- we asked him if it -- we got mail from
someone for that address, the 1228 Westloop, No. 197, with
another name besides his on that piece of mail. And we held it
back and put a note in his box; and when he got the note, he
came up and asked us for the package. Our little notes that we
put in there says, "You received an oversize package." So if a
package doesn't fit in the box, you have to come up to the
counter for us -- to ask to actually hand you the box. Well,
it was just an envelope, but because it didn't have his name on
it, we put a note in the box. He brought the note to the
counter, and we asked him if it was okay for that person to
receive mail in his box.
Q. Now, was this the only instance that you received mail for
Mr. Nichols' box, 197, in a name other than his own?
Cheryl Smith - Direct
A. No.
Q. Do you recall how many times that occurred?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Now, let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1957.
Can you see this document?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you identify that for us?
A. It's one of the pieces of mail that came to our address
with his box number on it that did not have his name on it.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we'd offer Exhibit 1957.
MR. TIGAR: Subject to our discussion, no objection.
THE COURT: 1957 is received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Would you give us what -- or read for us, please, Miss
Smith, what the address label on this document shows.
A. It's addressed to the name of Joe Rivers, 1228 Westloop,
No. 197, Manhattan, Kansas.
Q. And is this the name that was on the package that you were
telling us about earlier?
A. Yes, it is.
THE COURT: Well, you said, "package."
Didn't you say, "envelope"?
THE WITNESS: I don't remember receiving any packages,
but it was an envelope.
MR. RYAN: All right. Thank you, your Honor.
Cheryl Smith - Direct
THE WITNESS: Several envelopes.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, let me show you what has not been admitted but has
been marked as Exhibit 1892.
And can you identify this photograph for us?
A. Yes. That is our store.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Government would offer Exhibit
1892.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. This is your business in Manhattan, Kansas?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. As it appeared in 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let me also show you what's been marked for
identification as Exhibit 1891. And what are we looking at in
this photograph?
A. It's the Waters True Value Hardware store.
Q. Can you identify that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this how Waters True Value Hardware appeared in 1994?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Government would offer Exhibit
Cheryl Smith - Direct
1891.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 1891.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Can you see a pay phone in this photograph?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Would you take your marker and circle it for the jury,
please.
Approximately what is the distance from this Waters
True Value Hardware to your place of business, Mailboxes Etc컴?
A. Well, it's directly across the parking lot, which is
probably about 200 yards.
Q. Now, let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1893.
If you'd click on the side of that pen, it will erase that
mark. And can you identify this photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It's a view from -- it's taken right outside of Little
Caesar's Pizza, which is right next to us. And there's a
driveway between us, of our store and all the way across the
parking lot. You can sort of see behind the trees Waters True
Value.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Government would offer Exhibit
1893.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
Cheryl Smith - Direct
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. All right. Now, if you would, would you place -- take the
pen there and place an X where Waters True Value is.
We can see a little white sign there, just to the left
of your X. Can you make that out?
A. I can see "W-A-T."
Q. Okay. And if we could see the rest of it, it would say
what?
A. "Waters True Value Hardware."
Q. Now, let me show you what's been marked -- not marked but
received in evidence as Exhibit 1888, a series of phone calls
for November 6 and 7.
Now, can you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you see any calls there with a name "Waters True
Value"?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And would you circle those for us.
And you see one more there on the right-hand side,
bottom?
A. Oh.
Q. All right, now, if we could turn to November 7, the
following day -- you can erase those marks. You see any calls
involving Waters True Value on this day?
Cheryl Smith - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Would you circle those for us.
A. Whoops.
Q. Now, again, how far did you tell us the Waters True Value
was from your store, ma'am, at Mail Boxes Etc컴?
A. It's just about 200 yards straight across the parking lot.
MR. RYAN: Thank you. No further questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. Smith.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help Terry Nichols in this case.
Are you nervous?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, this -- I just want to ask you a few questions about
your business there and about your dealings with Mr. Nichols,
and it won't take long.
Now, you rented this box to Mr. Nichols in October of
'94; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then along about the 15th of November, you got a phone
call from him; right?
Cheryl Smith - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. And did he say where he was calling from?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Okay. And -- but you wrote down that address on Nordic
Lights in Las Vegas, Nevada, and he said forward his mail
there; right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, how long a time -- and that -- let me go back a little
bit.
Your business: It has advantages over a post office
box that one would have at the Postal Service; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And what are the advantages that you could have by having a
post office box with you instead of the Postal Service?
A. Well, we accept packages from UPS and Federal Express.
Q. And they don't, do they?
A. They don't.
Q. Okay. What else?
A. You can call in to have your mail checked. We will go look
in your box to see if you have anything, so you don't have to
come in and check.
Q. And you're nice -- and you do that very nicely; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't go "postal" when people ask for that?
A. No.
Cheryl Smith - Cross
Q. No. Okay. So you can do that. Now, what else can we do
that I couldn't do at the post office?
A. We forward the mail for someone. If they were like on
vacation or went somewhere, we would forward it to them as long
as they paid in advance.
Q. So, in other words, they call and you take it out and you
send it to them; and the Post Office doesn't do that, do they?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. We also hold mail for more than 30 days. The Post Office
will only hold your mail for 30 days.
Q. So Mr. Nichols was using that -- one of the services that
you mentioned. He said, Would you forward this to Las Vegas;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And during what period of time were you forwarding his mail
out there to Las Vegas, Nevada?
A. That was the only time we forwarded his mail at all.
Q. And the rest of the time, you just held it; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. He said, "Whatever's in my box, send it to Las Vegas"?
A. Correct.
Q. Are you the only provider of mail service there in the
Manhattan area, of your mailbox-type service, or are there
other franchises there?
Cheryl Smith - Cross
A. We're pretty much the only one.
Q. And how many mailboxes do you have at your facility there,
or did you in 1994 in the fall?
A. Approximately 250.
Q. Okay. Now, you recognize Mr. Nichols; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he's sitting -- well, could you point him out?
A. Yes, he's sitting at the table.
Q. There he is with us.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And that's the same Terry Nichols you remember renting the
box to in 1994; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And the same Terry Nichols that you then saw at
various times; right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you had conversations with him. Remember one time he
got a big box but it was kind of light for its weight (sic)?
A. Well, the only box I remember him -- I don't really
remember him getting a box. It was a priority envelope, which
is a flat envelope. And it had something thick in it, and it
was soft.
Q. Okay. Yeah. And you said -- well, what --
A. I said, "Somebody sent you a Nerf ball."
Q. And what did he do?
Cheryl Smith - Cross
A. He smiled and left with the package.
Q. Now, you have an employee, or did at that time, named Matt?
A. Correct.
Q. And I have a note here, but I can't pronounce -- How do you
pronounce his name?
A. Splichal.
Q. How do you spell that?
A. S-P-L-I-C-H-A-L.
Q. Now, there came a time, didn't there, when there was an
extraordinary amount of interest in that mailbox? You remember
that?
A. Yes.
Q. When the FBI came?
A. Yes.
Q. And you provided them, because they had a piece of paper
that authorized it, with the mail that had been collected in
the box. Do you remember that?
A. That was pretty much in the middle of the summer.
Q. Oh, okay. And do you remember that as being sometime
around April of 1995, when they came?
A. Well, they didn't come and collect it at that time.
Q. Oh, okay.
A. They came in and asked about him at that time, asked if I
could identify him.
Q. Okay. And you could; right?
Cheryl Smith - Cross
A. No.
Q. Oh. You couldn't?
A. Well, sort of. I just kept -- I told him that he looked
like -- there was an FBI agent that Friday and a CID agent.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And I told him that he looked like the CID agent, only
shorter.
Q. Okay. So you said he resembled the CID agent that came in
to see you?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, they also showed you some pictures?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Remember they showed you some sketches?
A. Not at that point.
Q. At some time, did they come back and show you some
sketches?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said you didn't remember either of those being
Mr. Nichols. Do you remember that?
A. They didn't show me a sketch of him.
Q. I understand that. They showed you sketches and it wasn't
him?
A. Yeah, it was supposed to be John Doe No. 2.
Q. But that wasn't him; right?
A. No.
Cheryl Smith - Cross
Q. In addition to -- do you remember what day it was that they
showed you a sketch that was supposed to be John Doe No. 2 and
you said it wasn't him?
A. No.
Q. Were you also visited by a lawyer from the Department of
Justice, person identified themselves as that? If you
remember.
A. I was visited almost daily.
Q. Okay. So you were visited by the FBI; right?
A. Yes.
Q. The CID?
A. Yes.
Q. The Army?
A. Yes.
Q. And I'm just asking: Do you remember being visited by a
Department of Justice lawyer? If you don't, it's okay.
A. I remember some attorneys. Two or three attorneys came up
with FBI agents from Oklahoma City at various times.
Q. Okay.
A. That's all I can -- I couldn't tell you who they were.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, Miss Smith. I have
no further questions. I appreciate it.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Cheryl Smith - Redirect
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. One thing I forgot to ask you before: The Waters True
Value Hardware store we were looking at in the photographs --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Is there any other Waters True Value store in Manhattan?
A. No, there's not.
Q. That's the only one?
A. That's the only one.
Q. And you're the only Mail Boxes Etc컴?
A. Yes.
Q. And when the FBI did come in and collect the mail out of
Mr. Nichols' box, that was mail in there that was not addressed
to Terry Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. You inspected that?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Can Miss Smith be excused?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You are excused.
THE WITNESS: Just leave this here?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Call Mr. Andy Bhakta.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Andy Bhakta affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Last name is Bhakta, B-H-A-K-T-A.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: What is your first name?
THE WITNESS: Andy. A-N-D-Y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Bhakta.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you live?
A. Manhattan, Kansas.
Q. Where are you from originally?
A. India.
Q. What do you do in Manhattan, Kansas?
A. Business. Lodging business.
Q. Lodging business? Do you run a particular motel?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. What's it called?
A. Travelers Motel.
Q. And how long have you run the Travelers Motel?
Andy Bhakta - Direct
A. 12 to 14 years.
Q. Where is the motel located?
A. 8811 East Highway 24.
Q. Also Manhattan?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you own the motel?
A. Yes.
Q. As well as operate it?
A. Yes.
Q. And who worked at the Travelers back in November 1994?
A. Just me.
Q. Just you?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. What were your responsibilities?
A. Rent the room and maintenance and everything.
Q. I'm sorry. Can you say that again?
A. Renting the room, maintenance, and everything.
Q. So basically everything in the motel?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did your wife help you out there at the Travelers?
A. Yes.
Q. And if a guest wanted to get a room at the Travelers Motel,
what would he or she have to do?
A. They have to fill out the registration card.
Q. Why don't you take a look at Government Exhibit 1765. It
Andy Bhakta - Direct
should be coming up on your screen. Do you see it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. Travelers Motel.
Q. It's a registration card from the motel?
A. Right.
Q. And is it a business record that you make and keep in the
regular course of the motel's business?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government's 1765, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 1765.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Bhakta, which portion of this card would the guest fill
out?
A. The name, street address, and make of car, license number,
and state.
Q. Okay. So the top portion?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what about -- what line would the motel worker fill
out?
A. Date and amount paid.
Andy Bhakta - Direct
Q. So just that bottom line?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does this card reflect the name of Ted Parker of Lum,
Michigan?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember this particular guest?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know who Ted Parker is?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether or not Ted Parker is even a real
person?
A. I don't know.
Q. And who fills out the name and -- I mean who fills out the
make and license plate number of the vehicle?
A. Customer.
Q. Does this card reflect a pickup truck with a Michigan
license plate of VX1640?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when customers fill that portion of the registration
card out, do you take the card and go outside and physically
compare the information on the card with the license plate on a
vehicle?
A. No.
Q. Do you check it out in any way?
A. No.
Andy Bhakta - Direct
Q. Okay. So do you know if the person who filled this out
really was driving a vehicle with that license plate number?
Do you have any personal knowledge of that?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, the parties have reached a
stipulation that the customer information on this card is the
handwriting of Mr. Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. That is our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right. We except that agreement.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Now, does this card indicate the date that Mr. Parker
registered?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the date?
A. 11-7-94.
Q. And you recognize that writing down on the bottom line?
A. Right.
Q. Whose writing is that?
A. The bottom line?
Q. Yes.
A. That is mine.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I'd ask the Court to read
now Factual Stipulation 16 between the parties.
THE COURT: 16 is October 12, dated?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
Andy Bhakta - Direct
THE COURT: It is agreed that Government Exhibit No.
1889 is a scrap piece of paper seized by the FBI on April 21,
1995, from the residence of William McVeigh and his daughter,
Jennifer McVeigh, in Lockport, New York. On one side of
Government Exhibit No. 1889 is the handwritten name "Terry
Nicols," spelled N-I-C-O-L-S, and the phone number "913-
539-9702." The handwriting is that of Jennifer McVeigh.
Was that --
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. That is our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor. We'll be moving
1889 into evidence at another time.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Bhakta, I want to show you Exhibit 1888, page 10. I
want you to look at the numbers on the left side, the kind of
middle column there.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you see the number for Waters True Value pay phone in
Manhattan, Kansas?
A. Yeah, I see that.
Q. And is that number (913) 539-9702?
A. Right.
Q. I want to show you Government 1888, page 11, now.
And do you see that same number for Waters True Value
Andy Bhakta - Direct
pay phone, this time on the right-hand column, the first two
entries on the right-hand column?
A. Yeah. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to take a look at the fourth
entry on November 7. That's Call No. 204. And the "called
from," the left-hand column indicates "Travelers Motel" in
Manhattan, Kansas, do you see that?
A. The fourth one?
Q. Yeah.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recognize the number there, (913) 776-4836?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is that number?
A. That's Travelers Motel.
Q. And was that the Travelers number back in November 1994?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does this Government exhibit reflect that there's a call
made from the Travelers Motel to William McVeigh in Pendleton,
New York, at 6:04 p.m.?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, go down the list and look at Call 212. It's the
second-to-last one.
A. Second to last.
Q. Do you see that? 7:22 p.m.
A. Yes, sir.
Andy Bhakta - Direct
Q. Okay. Now, was that call also to William McVeigh from the
Travelers Motel?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. From the same number?
A. Yeah.
Q. And now look at the 10:45 call to Lana and Leonard Padilla
in Las Vegas, Nevada. Was that also from the Travelers Motel?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And now, Mr. Bhakta, I want you to look back up at Call 203
and tell me if you can read where that was from.
A. 203, Mini Mart pay phone.
Q. Mini Mart pay phone in Manhattan, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that made at 5:59 p.m.?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that also calls 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, and
211 were made from. I mean made to.
A. Which numbers?
Q. 205, all the way down to 211, the right-hand column: Does
that reflect the Mini Mart pay phone in Manhattan, Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. And do those calls begin with 205 at 6:12, just a few
minutes after the call from the Mini Mart?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with the Mini Mart in Manhattan, Kansas,
Andy Bhakta - Direct
near the Travelers Motel?
A. Yes, it is across the street from the motel.
Q. It's right across the street?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. I want to show you Government Exhibit 1896.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What's depicted in that picture?
A. Its right side is the motel and left side is the Mini Mart.
Q. Is that a picture right across the street from your motel,
what it looks like?
A. Right.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1896, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Did you see the Travelers Motel on this picture?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you pick up the pen that should be to your left up
there and take it, press it right to the screen -- you've got
to go underneath the little window -- and draw a circle around
the -- Mr. Bhakta, you have to take it and put it on the screen
itself.
A. For the motel.
Andy Bhakta - Direct
Q. Yeah, just circle the motel so we can know which building
it is.
Great. And do you also see the Mini Mart?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And can you circle that, please.
Mr. Bhakta, do you know from your own personal
knowledge whether or not there's a pay phone at that Mini Mart
in Manhattan, Kansas?
A. Yes, there is a pay phone over there.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello, Mr. Bhakta.
A. Hello.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help Terry Nichols.
You have a telephone in each one of the rooms in your
motel, do you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if a person staying in your motel wants to use a
telephone credit card to make a call, how do they do that?
A. They call, you know, office for information.
Q. I'm sorry, could you say that again?
A. Well, they cannot dial call directly. They call in to the
Andy Bhakta - Cross
office for direction.
Q. And then someone in the office then puts the call through;
is that correct?
A. Yeah; right.
Q. And you were shown some telephone records from the Mini
Mart. Do you remember being shown those records?
A. Yeah, uh-huh.
Q. And is that the first -- is today, when you came here, the
first time that you had seen those records?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you been shown them at -- by the Government lawyers in
preparing to testify today?
A. What is that?
Q. Did they show you these same records so you could be ready
to testify?
A. Yeah.
Q. I'm going to place up what has been received as
Government's 1888, I believe for demonstrative purposes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. And this is the list of calls that's dated Monday, 11-7,
1994; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, is that -- the thing that's across the street from
your motel, that's the Mini Mart?
Andy Bhakta - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And reading down here, do you see that there's
a call from the Mini Mart for 16 -- from the Mini Mart for 16
seconds; do you see that, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then there's a call from the Travelers Motel to a
number in New York; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now the Travelers Motel, that's your number; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then there's a call to the Mini Mart pay phone, and
it's 6 seconds in length; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then there's another call a little more than a minute
later, and that's a zero; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then the next call is also a zero; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the call is a zero; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the next call is for 13 seconds; is that what that
says?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then the next call is a zero; correct?
A. Yes.
Andy Bhakta - Cross
Q. Then the next call is a zero; right?
A. Yes, sir, yes.
Q. Now, then that next call, that is from the Travelers Motel
to this New York number; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then there's a call to Lana and Leonard Padilla, and
that's 33 minutes and 19 seconds; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when a customer at your motel makes one of those
telephone calls through the office, do you keep an independent
record of the time that it takes? Do you have phone records
that show how long those calls are?
A. Well, yes, we got a thing that when they hung up, it's been
dialed.
Q. And on your printout, does it sometimes happen that one
call shows up as two calls?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, on that printout that you get, do you then charge the
customer who wants to make a credit card call, or is that
included in the price of the room?
A. Including the price of the room.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, sir. I have no
further questions. I appreciate it.
MR. GOELMAN: No questions, your Honor. He may be
excused.
THE COURT: Agreed, all right.
You may step down. You're excused.
We'll take our midmorning recess at this time, members
of the jury, during which again, please continue to be cautious
of keeping open minds, avoiding discussion of anything relating
to the case, and avoiding anything outside of our evidence that
could influence you in any way.
You're excused now, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:20 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. 10:40.
(Recess at 10:21 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:40 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 10:40 a.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, at this time, we'd call Lana
Padilla.
THE COURT: All right.
(Lana Padilla affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Lana Padilla, P-A-D-I-L-L-A.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. Let me take just a few minutes, Ms. Padilla, and get you
acquainted with the witness stand. You'll see to your left
there is an accordion folder with some exhibits. See those?
A. Yes.
Q. All righty. We may be referring to those in the course of
your examination. There is water for you if you need it; and
immediately below your desk, you'll see a computer screen.
Okay? All right.
What I want to do this morning, Ms. Padilla, is ask
you a few questions about your background, then a couple of
events in 1994 and 1995. Can you answer those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Let's start, please, Ms. Padilla, and tell the
members of the jury where you grew up.
A. I was born and raised in Ubly, Michigan.
Q. How do you smell that?
A. U-B-L-Y.
Q. And where is Ubly, Michigan?
A. It's in the Thumb of Michigan, north of Detroit.
Q. This is Michigan --
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. Yeah, I'm in the Thumb.
Q. Here's Saginaw Bay.
A. Correct.
Q. Ubly is over here in the Thumb. How far east of Saginaw
Bay is Ubly?
A. About 60 miles.
Q. And you grew up on a farm there?
A. Dairy farm.
Q. When did you finish high school?
A. 1968.
Q. And what did you do after that?
A. I went to Eastern Michigan University for a period --
Q. How long?
A. Till 1969, '70.
Q. Did you come back home then at that time?
A. I came back home. My brother was killed, and I came back
home to work on the farm.
Q. Shortly thereafter, were you married?
A. Yes.
Q. What year?
A. 1970.
Q. And to whom?
A. Larry Osentoski.
Q. And did you and Mr. Osentoski have children together?
A. We have two sons.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. Would you tell the jury their names and dates of birth.
A. Barry Osentoski is born 10-21-71, and Troy Osentoski is
born April 16, 1974.
Q. So it makes them about 26 and 23 years of age currently?
A. Yes.
Q. Where do Barry and Troy currently reside?
A. They reside in Las Vegas, Nevada, currently with me.
Q. How long have you lived in Las Vegas, Nevada?
A. Since October, 1989.
Q. And all the time prior to that was in the state of
Michigan?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's turn to your employment history, if you don't mind,
Ms. Padilla, and give the jury an overview of what you've done
for a living. What is it that you're now doing?
A. I currently am a licensed real estate broker and a licensed
insurance agent.
Q. In the state of Nevada?
A. In the state of Nevada.
Q. And how long?
A. I moved there in '89, and it took a time period -- there
was a lapse where I had to take my exams, and I got licensed in
1990 for real estate and in -- I think 1991 or '2 for
insurance.
Q. So you have been licensed in both those fields for a number
Lana Padilla - Direct
of years?
A. Right. I've been in real estate since 1978 and insurance
since 1984.
Q. In those field then even before you moved to Las Vegas?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you currently own or operate a business in Las Vegas?
A. Yes.
Q. And what's the name of that business?
A. It's called Vegas Starlight Realty.
Q. How big a business is that?
A. Small. It's me and three other licensees.
Q. And how long have you worked with Vegas Starlight?
A. I established that company in January of 1996.
Q. And prior to the current business, did you have any other
real estate business operation in the state of Nevada and
specifically Las Vegas?
A. I had a company called Esquire Realty.
Q. Tell the jury about Esquire Realty.
A. I was the owner/broker, one of the owners and the broker;
and it was a larger company. And I had that established in
1993 until December of 1995.
Q. At its peak, how large was Esquire Realty measured by
agents and employees?
A. We had approximately 40 licensees.
Q. And over the years, Ms. Padilla, what other lines of work
Lana Padilla - Direct
have you been involved in?
A. I took a job temporarily while I was getting licensed at
Lady Luck Hotel and Casino as a food and beverage hostess while
I was getting licensed in Las Vegas, and that was in 1990.
Q. Safe to say, then, you have been actively employed your
adult life?
A. Correct.
Q. Ms. Padilla, do you have children other than Barry and
Troy?
A. Yes. I have a son, Joshua.
Q. And what is Joshua's last name?
A. Nichols.
Q. And is Joshua a son of you and Terry Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell the members of the jury when you and Mr. Nichols were
married.
A. We got married in January, 1981.
Q. And were you later divorced?
A. Yes.
Q. And what year?
A. 1989.
Q. And was there any period of separation prior to the final
divorce?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell the jury when Josh Nichols was born and his
Lana Padilla - Direct
current age, please.
A. He was born August 11, 1982. And he's 15.
Q. Okay.
A. Yes.
Q. There is water, if you need it.
A. Yeah.
Q. And we'll take our time.
A. Okay.
Q. Does Josh live with you?
A. Yes, Josh lives with me.
Q. And how long has Josh been residing with you?
A. Since 1993.
Q. Between the time of your separation in 1988 and 1993, where
predominantly did Josh Nichols reside?
A. He was with his father, and he was in -- in 1988, he was in
Fort Riley, Kansas. And then he was back in Decker, Michigan,
after Terry left the Army. And then in 1991, there was a short
time where they lived in Las Vegas.
Q. Over the years since your divorce, Ms. Padilla, have you
had occasion to stay in contact with Terry Nichols?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Is that largely as a result of Josh?
A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Padilla, now let me turn to Tim McVeigh and ask you if
you know Tim McVeigh?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. Only by telephone conversations.
Q. Could you tell the jury when you first heard the name "Tim
McVeigh," when and from whom?
A. I recall hearing it when Terry was in the military.
Q. And when was that?
A. In 1988.
Q. How long was Terry Nichols in the military?
A. Approximately a year.
Q. And during that time period, is that when you first heard
the name "Tim McVeigh"?
A. I recall hearing about several people, and Tim McVeigh was
one of them.
Q. And what first information did you learn from Mr. Nichols
about Tim McVeigh?
A. I don't really -- I don't really remember, other than they
were in the Army together.
Q. Over the years since that time, have you personally talked
to Tim McVeigh?
A. On the telephone.
Q. And how many different such occasions?
A. Normally it was a conversation, short, calling into my
house to talk to either Josh or Terry. Maybe 15, 20 times.
Q. And would --
A. Over the period of years.
Q. With that experience, have you come to recognize his voice?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. You know him when he calls?
A. Yes.
Q. Does he identify himself to you when he does?
A. Yes. It's normal procedure when I answer the phone to ask
who is calling. Because of the type of business, I always try
to get a name.
Q. Let's turn our attention now, Ms. Padilla, to 1994, and
specifically January and February of that year, the early
months of that year. Do you know where Mr. Nichols was
residing at that time?
A. January, February of 1994?
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. He was in Las Vegas, or Henderson, Nevada.
Q. That is a suburb of Las Vegas?
A. Yes.
Q. You would know that as a real estate agent?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was Mr. Nichols residing with in early 1994 in Las
Vegas?
A. His wife and his daughter.
Q. And what is Mr. Nichols' wife's name?
A. Marife and Nicole.
Q. In February of 1994, did you come to know that Mrs. Nichols
left the country?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. I recall her leaving the country, because when she came
back we helped her get from one terminal to another terminal in
'94.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, it's agreed among the parties
that Mrs. Nichols departed the United States for the
Philippines on February 15, 1994.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. That is our agreement.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. In February of 1994, where did Mr. Nichols go after his
wife left for the Philippines?
A. My recollection was he was headed from Henderson to Kingman
to Marion, Kansas.
Q. Was his first stop, then, in Kingman, Arizona?
A. He had given me an address there.
Q. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Nichols before he left
the Las Vegas area in February of 1994 in which he told you
where he was going?
A. We talked because he was having like a sale and things, and
we talked about where he was going, but, you know, just in
passing.
Q. At that time, did Mr. Nichols provide you any information
by which you could reach him if you needed to?
A. He had given me an address.
Q. Take a look, Ms. Padilla, in your exhibit folder to your
Lana Padilla - Direct
left for No. 1849.
Do you find it there?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recognize it?
A. It's from my Daytimer.
Q. And is the entry on a date in February of 1994 in your
handwriting?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that the information that Mr. Nichols provided you
in February of 1994?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit
Government's Exhibit 1849.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1849 is received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Ms. Nichols -- excuse me -- Ms. Padilla, we're going to
show the exhibit to the jury at this time and focus on a
section entitled, "Tim Tuttle." Do you see that in your --
A. On the screen.
Q. -- in the exhibit itself?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Would you read that into the record, the information that
starts with the name "Tim Tuttle."
A. "Tim Tuttle, address 1711 Stockton Hill Road, No. 206,
Lana Padilla - Direct
Kingman, Arizona, 86401."
Q. And again, where did you get the information you wrote down
in your daytimer on this date in February of 1994?
A. I would have gotten it from Terry.
Q. Did you know in February of 1994 a person by the name of
"Tim Tuttle"?
A. No. I didn't equate "Tim Tuttle" with Timothy McVeigh, no.
Q. At any later time, did you come to know "Tim Tuttle" to be
a named used by Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that through Mr. Nichols?
A. No. No. I don't remember us discussing the difference in
the name.
Q. All right. The information that's recorded in this
exhibit: Is that the address Mr. Nichols gave you as a means
to reach him after he left Las Vegas in February of 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know, based on conversations with Mr. Nichols after
his departure from Las Vegas, how long he stayed in Kingman,
Arizona?
A. No.
Q. When was the next place that you know that Mr. Nichols went
to based on your conversations with him at that time?
A. He had given me -- he had given me an address -- or excuse
me -- like a hotel number, phone number and a unit number,
Lana Padilla - Direct
like -- and that was in Kansas; and he was there looking for a
home.
Q. And did you record the motel rooms that Mr. Nichols gave
you as a means to reach you -- have you reach him?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall those room numbers?
A. It's in my Daytimer. I think -- no, 58 and 30-something,
but I'd have to look.
Q. We won't bother you to do that at this point.
Do you remember, then, in the spring of 1994 Mr. Terry
Nichols' residing in the state of Kansas?
A. Oh, in the spring of '94, yes. He went to the Donahue
farm. Right. And I just said something that I realize I was
in the wrong year. I'm sorry.
Yeah, the spring of '94, he was in Marion, Kansas,
working on a farm.
Q. All right. And did you talk to Mr. Nichols at the Donahue
Ranch over the course of the next several months in 1994?
A. Yes. I'm sure we've talked because Josh visited and we had
to make travel arrangements.
Q. I want to move forward now in time, Mrs. Nichols, to the
fall, September of 1994. Do you recall a conversation with
Mr. Nichols in which you learned that he was leaving the
Donahue Ranch?
A. In -- yes. In September.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. Can you describe what you recall of that conversation to
the members of the jury?
A. It was a very -- it was a surprise to me because I hadn't
heard that he was going to leave the farm. And it was a very
brief conversation, just saying that he was going to be doing
gun shows with Timothy McVeigh.
Q. Did he tell you why he was quitting his job?
A. Yeah. He said he was putting long days, long hours, and he
could make more money, be better for him financially to do gun
shows.
Q. Did he tell you where Mrs. Nichols and their daughter would
be in the fall of 1994?
A. I recall him saying they went back to the Philippines.
Q. Shortly after that conversation in which you learned of
Mr. Nichols' plan to leave the Donahue employment, did you
personally see Terry Nichols in Las Vegas?
A. I recall him stopping by a couple times.
Q. In the month of October of 1994, how many visits do you
recall Mr. Nichols' making to your residence in Las Vegas?
A. I recall, I think, two times he was there.
Q. Do you recall a period of time that separated those two
visits in the month of October of 1994?
A. It seemed like he was there the first weekend when he left
the farm and then again later in the month, so there was a time
period -- I don't know where he was -- I don't know what he
Lana Padilla - Direct
did. I just knew that he said he was doing gun shows.
Q. Do you know where he was immediately before coming to Las
Vegas, Nevada, the first week of October of 1994?
A. No.
Q. And I take it, as you said, you don't know where he was in
between the time of the two visits?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Could you tell the members of the jury approximately how
long Mr. Nichols stayed to visit on those two trips in October
of 1994.
A. He was there very briefly, because if I remember correctly,
he picked up Josh and they went to Zion National Park; and so
he wasn't really at my home very long. He was just there
briefly.
Q. When you saw Mr. Nichols in the month of October of '94,
what kind of vehicle do you recall he was driving?
A. A pickup.
Q. And do you remember anything about the pickup, its color,
or any other features?
A. I think it was blue.
Q. Ms. Padilla, I want to turn your attention now to
Government's Exhibit 1888. It has a list of phone numbers.
And I'm going to start with the date of October 6, 1994. This
may be easier for you look at on the screen.
A. I'm just reading, yeah.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. Okay. With that before you, Ms. Padilla, do you see two
phone calls made on Thursday, October 6, 1994, to your
residence?
A. Yes.
Q. And was your number in October of 1994 the same number
that's reflected on that exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell the members of the jury where those two
phone calls were placed from, just by reading the exhibit.
A. It appears it was from Kingman, Arizona.
Q. Ms. Padilla, in the course of the time that you knew
Mr. Nichols, did you ever know him to use the name Daryl
Bridges?
A. I don't recall that name.
Q. Did you know in the fall of 1994 whether he had a debit
calling card?
A. I wasn't familiar what a debit calling card was, no. He
might have said it, but I didn't -- didn't think of it.
Q. Have you ever used a debit calling card?
A. No.
Q. If there are other entries on this exhibit that reflect
phone calls from or to your residence on a Bridges debit card,
did you make any of those calls?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Let's turn our attention, then, to October 11 --
Lana Padilla - Direct
Tuesday, October 11, and describe for the jury what they're
looking at there just based on the exhibit itself.
A. Calls from Michael Fortier's in Kingman, Arizona, to my
residence.
Q. Did you know the name "Michael Fortier" in October of 1994?
A. Only through -- only through Terry when he was in the Army,
but --
Q. You've never met Michael Fortier?
A. No.
Q. Let's turn now to October 17, 1994. And do you see a phone
call to your residence that day, Monday, October 17?
A. Yes.
Q. And where was that phone call placed from?
A. Herington, Kansas.
Q. To the best of your recollection, in mid October of '94,
was Mr. Nichols not in the Las Vegas area?
A. I don't remember him being there the middle of the month.
Q. Let's turn to Sunday, October 23, 1994. And the third
entry, Ms. Padilla, do you see a phone call to your residence?
A. Yes.
Q. And again, where is that placed from? What city and state?
A. Junction City, Kansas.
Q. Have you ever been to Junction City, Kansas?
A. No.
Q. Let's turn as well to October 29, 1994. Do you see the
Lana Padilla - Direct
first entry?
A. It's a call from Michael Fortier's house to my house, and
there is a call from a pay phone just around my corner of my
house, Mighty Mart, to Michael Fortier's house.
Q. On the same day?
A. Yes.
Q. How far is the Mighty Mart from your residence, or how far
was it in the fall of 1994?
A. About two long blocks.
Q. To your knowledge, is it the closest public pay phone to
your residence?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's turn our attention now, Ms. Padilla, to late October,
1994, after the time period you've already described to this
jury. Do you remember a -- a problem developing in the family
that precipitated the need on your part to contact Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. And I don't think we need to get into all the details, but
did you after that moment attempt to reach Mr. Nichols?
A. I wrote him a note and mailed it to his post office box,
telling him to call me.
Q. And why did you reach him in that fashion, or attempt to
reach him in that fashion?
A. That was the only way I had to reach him.
Q. After you sent the note to Mr. Nichols' mailbox, did you,
Lana Padilla - Direct
in fact, have a conversation that you recall with Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes. He called me.
Q. And approximately what date, if you do recall?
A. It was on a Sunday, first part of November.
Q. Let's turn our attention back to 1888 and the entries for
Sunday, November 6, 1994. Do you see the third entry on that
particular exhibit?
A. Uh-huh. Esquire Realty, Waters True Value pay phone.
Q. Is that the phone number of Esquire Realty in November of
1994?
A. That's a -- that's a cellular phone number that is in the
name -- it was in the name of the company, and I had it
forwarded into my house.
Q. The phone call that you recall -- and I'll ask you some
details about it -- was that received at your residence?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall approximately how long the phone call
lasted?
A. It was probably -- I thought it was about 20 minutes; but
according to this, it was a little bit longer.
Q. Does this record in terms of activity on November 6
correspond with your own memory as to when that phone call took
place?
A. Yes.
Q. You'll see a second phone call, bottom -- or second-from-
Lana Padilla - Direct
the-bottom, I should say, also to your residence.
A. Yes.
Q. On that day, then, were there two phone calls of
approximately a half hour in length?
A. I don't really recall the second phone call. It might have
been Josh got that call. I don't really recall that phone
call.
Q. Let's talk about the content of the conversation, please.
Ms. Padilla, can you tell the members of the jury in as much
detail as you can now recall exactly what you said and
Mr. Nichols said during that phone call.
A. Well, the phone call was -- Terry called and we discussed
Josh. And from discussing Josh, we discussed some other
things; and it seemed like I wanted -- I didn't really care
about the other things which Terry was elaborating on. And
there was part of the conversation was regarding Waco, and
another part of the conversation was regarding the shooting at
the White House. And there was some discussion about the civil
unrest and people killing off people. It was a really
different conversation.
Q. Tell the members of the jury why it is that you recall this
conversation.
A. Well, because I'm -- I didn't really have the mind-set or
the time to deal with any of those issues. I was one thing
(sic), and one thing was to Josh; and when I hung up the phone,
Lana Padilla - Direct
I realized that it was a very odd conversation. And I'm sorry
to say that Waco didn't enter my mind before the call and Waco
didn't enter my mind after the call. It was just something
that seemed to be on Terry's mind.
Q. Waco was what Mr. Nichols was talking to you about on that
Sunday call?
A. Well, yeah. He elaborated on that a little bit.
Q. Tell the jury what you recall him saying about Waco and the
events at Waco.
A. Very -- it's been a long time but briefly was that he felt
it was handled unjustly, the government did things incorrectly,
and there were innocent people killed.
Q. Earlier you used the word "injustice." Did Mr. Nichols use
that word during that conversation on that Sunday?
A. I don't know if it was "unjust" or "injustice."
Q. How did he use that word?
A. That it was "unjust," "unjustified."
Q. You mentioned earlier about "civil unrest," that term. Did
that come out of Mr. Nichols' mouth?
A. Yeah. He said there was going to be people killing off
each other and that the country was in trouble.
And I just said, "Terry, I don't have time to correct
the problems of the world." You know, and I just really was --
I just really was not really wanting to talk about anything
that didn't pertain to -- I mean, I was very focused on my
Lana Padilla - Direct
work; and I didn't have time to deal with any of these other
things that seemed to be bothering him.
Q. When Mr. Nichols talked about civil unrest, did that prompt
you to make any mention about the White House shooting?
A. Yeah. I kind of got smart-mouthed and said, "I suppose you
thought that the shooting at the White House was okay"; and he
thought it was.
Q. That's what Mr. Nichols --
A. He thought the man had a right, a justified reason.
Q. To shoot at the White House?
A. Yeah.
Q. In the course of the conversation, did Mr. Nichols predict
any reaction of the people in this country as a result of Waco?
A. Would you repeat that.
Q. In the course of this conversation, did Mr. Nichols predict
any reaction by the people in this country as a result of Waco?
A. I recall him saying that people were going to start killing
off each other; that there was going to be just civil unrest.
Q. Do you recall when you next saw Mr. Terry Nichols after
this Sunday phone call?
A. He came over -- came to Las Vegas.
Q. And when did he arrive?
A. In the middle of that week, sometime that week he came to
Vegas.
Q. How many days, if you can recollect, elapsed between the
Lana Padilla - Direct
time of this phone call on Sunday, November 6, and when you saw
Mr. Nichols in Las Vegas?
A. Well, he was there for Josh's football game on Saturday, so
I remember him coming either Wednesday -- Wednesday or Thursday
of that week.
Q. So November 9 or 10, thereabouts. And where did he stay
when he arrived in Las Vegas that first week in November of
1994?
A. I suggested he stay with Josh, and he stayed at our house.
Q. Now, at that time, were you married to Leonard Padilla?
A. Yes.
Q. And was this invitation a mutual invitation?
A. Yes.
Q. Of the Padilla family?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did Mr. Padilla set any conditions for Mr. Nichols' staying
there at the residence with you?
A. Not so much the first part of the stay, but the second part
of the stay, he kind of -- he just said, you know, "I don't
mind Terry staying," because we were having problems and I
wanted Terry to help me with Josh; and he just mentioned that
he didn't want any guns around.
Q. And did you have a conversation with Mr. Nichols about the
need that if he stayed at your home that he should not have any
handguns?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. I told Terry that it was okay with Leonard if he stayed,
and I also didn't realize he had a gun. And I just said to
him, "As long as you don't bring any guns in the house." And
he showed me a gun, and I just said, "Well, I don't want any
problems, so . . ."
Q. And was this a conversation that took place in your
residence?
A. Yes.
Q. And you communicated the need to not have weapons and he
had one on that day?
A. Right.
Q. Showed it to you?
A. Right.
Q. Is that correct?
Did you see Mr. Nichols in possession of a video
camera in early November of 1994?
A. He brought a video camera for Josh's football game.
Q. What do you remember about that episode?
A. I brought one, too, from a girlfriend. We both had one,
and neither one of us knew how to use them; but he didn't -- he
said he got his at a -- I don't know where he said he got his,
but he didn't know how to use it, either.
Q. Did you ask him about whether he had instructions or
anything of the like?
A. No.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. Do you know why it was that the video camera was not
working, the one that Mr. Nichols had?
A. No, I don't recall. He could have had everything and I
still wouldn't know how to use it. I --
Q. Later in November of 1994, did Mr. Nichols leave the
country?
A. He left November 22. I took him to the airport.
Q. Do you know where he was going?
A. The Philippines, to visit his family.
Q. On that date, November 22, 1994, did you speak to Tim
McVeigh?
A. Early -- early in the morning, there was a phone call that
came in the house; and I gave the phone to Terry.
Q. And who was the caller?
A. Tim McVeigh.
Q. And you recall that Mr. McVeigh called your residence for
Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. On the same day that Mr. Nichols later left for the
Philippines?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where Mr. McVeigh was calling from?
A. No.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1888 one more time.
November 22. See a phone call to your residence on that date
Lana Padilla - Direct
from a pay phone in Pendleton, New York?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And do you see an approximate length of that phone call?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. A little less than 4 minutes?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that correspond with your own memory of how long that
phone call was that morning?
A. The time corresponds. The length wouldn't, because what I
usually did is gave Terry the phone, and I walked back and got
ready for work and he was in the kitchen. So I don't know what
the length of time, but the time the phone call came in
according to our time zone would seem correct.
Q. Do you remember anybody else calling for Mr. Terry Nichols
on Tuesday, November 22, 1994?
A. No.
Q. Describe, then, Ms. Padilla, the events of November 22,
1994.
A. I have gave him the telephone, and I went back to get ready
for work. And our agreement was that I would pick him up later
that day and take him to the airport.
Q. Where were you to pick Mr. Nichols up?
A. At the -- he was going to leave his vehicle at a storage
place in Las Vegas.
Q. And later that same day, the 22d, did you, in fact, go to
Lana Padilla - Direct
the storage site?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe what happened there.
A. It was late in the afternoon. Terry had picked up Josh,
and I met them -- I left my office and met them at the storage
place in Las Vegas.
And he proceeded to do whatever he had to do as far as
parking his vehicle, and I just waited; and then he threw his
things in the trunk, and I took him to the airport.
Q. In the course of the drive from the storage shed to the
airport, did you and Mr. Nichols have conversation?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe that.
A. I don't recall just if he told me when we were there at the
storage place, or if he told me when we got to the airport, but
he told me that he had a package for me and that I was to
please keep it until he came back and if he didn't come back by
the date, that I was to open it up.
Q. And did Mr. Nichols, in fact, deliver to you a package?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that done in the vehicle?
A. It was in the vehicle.
Q. Did he deliver anything other than the package to you or in
addition to that package?
A. He gave me a set of keys for his pickup truck and an
Lana Padilla - Direct
instruction sheet written out for Tim.
Q. "Tim" being Tim McVeigh?
A. It just said "Tim" on the sheet.
Q. Did you have conversation with Mr. Nichols about the
prospect that Mr. McVeigh may be borrowing his truck?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe that.
A. He said that Tim might be borrowing the truck and if he did
to give him the keys and give him the list of instructions
because it needed brakes and the oil changed and things like
that.
Q. Was there anything that you noticed about Mr. Nichols
during the drive from the storage shed to the airport that
afternoon?
A. Anything I noticed?
Q. Do you remember having conversation with Mr. Nichols about
a smell?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Describe that.
A. Yeah. I said something about -- something about the smell;
and he said something about some new deodorant or something.
It was -- I felt bad that I said it because later on, I just --
there were so many emotions and I remember saying about a
smell.
Q. That's an observation you made in this drive to the airport
Lana Padilla - Direct
that afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe the package that Mr. Nichols handed to you
in that car ride?
A. It was a brown package wrapped with tape, brown -- like
brown -- he asked me earlier that day for a grocery bag. It
was a brown grocery bag.
Q. Early that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe what had happened that morning --
A. Oh, that morning --
Q. -- as it relates to the bag?
A. Oh, well I just -- he was sitting in the kitchen doing
whatever, and he was sitting at the table. He was writing, and
he asked me if had I a grocery bag, and I gave him the grocery
bag.
Q. And was the grocery bag you gave him that morning of
similar like as the bag that you got delivered from Mr. Nichols
later that same day?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you notice Mr. Nichols that morning in the kitchen
taking any efforts to conceal his writing as he sat there?
A. Terry typically was very private, but he did sit and he had
his tablet and he had something else over it, yes.
Q. And as you walked by, what did he do?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. I didn't really walk by him. I just -- I just observed it
because the counter around the table, you know -- I didn't
really walk by him. He didn't discuss it or talk to me about
what he was writing.
Q. During the car ride, then, you got a grocery bag, piece of
paper addressed to Tim and a set of keys. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Take a look, Ms. Padilla, at Exhibit 231 in your folder.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that?
A. This was the instructions that were given to me to give to
Tim if he came to pick up the pickup truck.
Q. And do you recognize the handwriting that appears in
Government's Exhibit 231?
A. Yes.
Q. As whose?
A. It looks to be Terry's.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I would move to admit
Government's Exhibit 231.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 231 received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Ms. Padilla, are those the instructions concerning the GMC
pickup truck?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether at that time in November of 1994 --
whether Tim McVeigh had his own car?
A. I can't say that I do in November of '94. I never -- I
never asked Terry if Tim had his own vehicle, no.
Q. Let's return our attention now to the conversation about
the bag in the car, Ms. Padilla. Do you recall anything being
said about how long you expected Mr. Nichols to be gone?
A. We talked. He said that in case he wasn't back, you know,
he instructed me to keep the package.
In my mind, I said, you know, well, I'm not a
traveler, so I'm not sure how long a visa or passport is good
for; but, you know, I thought it was kind of odd, because it
seems like you'd be back in 60 days. But he didn't assure me
that he would be back.
Q. Did you ask him how long is your visa or how long are you
going to be gone?
A. I don't remember. In my mind, I was saying it; but I don't
remember if I said it to him.
Q. In the conversation, did Mr. Nichols give you further
instructions as to where you should take that bag?
A. Yeah. He thought I should keep -- because I have other
sons and people coming and going in my house, he thought --
suggested I take it to my office.
Q. And this is a suggestion he made in this conversation in
Lana Padilla - Direct
the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe to the jury, then, Ms. Padilla, what happened when
all of you arrived at the airport that afternoon?
A. We got to the airport. It was, I think, around fourish.
Took Terry to the airport. He got out of the car, took his
luggage, left the package and said good-bye. And I was going
to pick him up when he returned; but he started to walk away,
and Josh ran after him and --
Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
A. -- gave him a big hug. And then Josh is just really
affectionate.
Q. And is that when Mr. Nichols then left for the Philippines?
A. He left, yeah.
Q. Ms. Padilla, tell the members of the jury, then, what you
did with the paper bag that he had left behind in your
possession.
A. I drove home, and Josh and I went home; and then I took the
package in the house. And the next day, I took it to my
office.
Q. Did you know whether Mr. Nichols had traveled to the
Philippines on occasions prior to November of 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many such occasions do you recall or are you aware
of?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. He, himself?
Q. Yes.
A. I thought it was quite a few. I was estimating 10. I
really wasn't sure.
Q. But a number of times that you recall?
A. A number of times, yes.
Q. On any of those prior occasions, had Mr. Nichols left with
you instruction sheets, paper bags, valuables with the
instructions that you've described here?
A. No.
Q. Let's turn, then, to November 23; and if you'd tell the
jury, then, what exactly you did with the bag in your office
that day.
A. On November 23, which is a Wednesday -- my partner is off
on Wednesdays, so I took the package into my office privately
and I opened it.
Q. Now, this is a bag that had markings about instructions not
to open; is that correct?
A. "Do not open." Yeah. "If I don't return by such a date,"
yeah.
Q. Do you recall the date?
A. I thought it said "January 25."
Q. Of what year, then?
A. 1995.
Q. All right. And that corresponded with the oral
Lana Padilla - Direct
instructions you had gotten from Mr. Nichols; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Would you tell the jury, then, why it is
despite those instructions, you opened the bag.
A. Because of my son's reaction when Terry left. Terry had
made several trips, and I've never received a package; and Josh
has never said to me, "I'll never see my father again." He was
in the car crying; and I said, "Josh, your dad goes to the
Philippines all the time. This is just another trip."
And I was concerned. My antennas went out and I -- I
was concerned.
Q. Those were the circumstances, then, that led you to open
the bag?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell the members of the jury what you found inside.
A. I opened the package, and there was a life insurance policy
with a beneficiary change. There were letters, one to myself
and one to Jennifer McVeigh. There was stock power of
attorneys that I was to -- had given me power of attorney to
sell stocks. There was keys. I didn't know what they were to.
Q. Did you see any precious metals?
A. There was some small ounces of some precious metals. It
made the package heavier. I remember it being heavier.
Q. In addition to the two envelopes addressed as you've
described, was there another piece of paper inside the bag?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. Yes. There was a list of emergency numbers.
Q. Did the life insurance policy and the change of beneficiary
catch your eye?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. Because -- because I'm an insurance agent, No. 1, and also
I realized that -- that the date on the beneficiary change was
just so recent, November 7, and I was -- I was -- that just
concerned me.
Q. Can you describe for the jury again the envelopes in more
detail? What other condition did you find the envelopes in?
A. Just letter-size envelopes. One was -- had my name on it,
and the other one was stamped and addressed and sealed to
Jennifer McVeigh.
Q. And the return address on the envelope that was stamped and
addressed to Jennifer McVeigh: Did you recognize that address?
A. It was my address.
Q. And what other writing, if any, was on the face of the
envelope addressed to you?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you know Jennifer McVeigh in November of 1994?
A. No.
Q. Ms. Padilla, did you read -- open and read the contents of
those two envelopes?
A. Yes.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. When did you do so?
A. That morning, the 23d.
Q. And what was your reaction?
A. It was -- I was very concerned, real concerned. I cared
about Terry, and I was concerned that there was something
awful; that he was not coming back.
Q. Was there anything about the content of the letters that
you read on that day that led you to copy them?
A. Yes, because of the way they were written, I did copy them.
I put everything back in the package, and I did make copies of
them, yes.
Q. And --
A. I was concerned if anything happened to him that I would
have them -- I didn't know. I just made copies because I kept
reading them and rereading them.
Q. And after the bombing in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995,
did you turn over your copies, the ones you've described, to
the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Padilla, take a look, please, in your folder for
Government's Exhibits 1856, 1857 and 1858.
A. 18 what?
Q. 1856 and then the two right behind that, 1857 and 1858.
Do you have each of those in front of you now