The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Thursday, November 20, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 84)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:28 p.m., on the 20th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
REID NEUREITER, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite
1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:28 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 1:28 p.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'll call Mrs. Gladys Wendt.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Gladys Wendt affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name and spell your last
name for me.
THE WITNESS: I got to catch my breath. I've been
walking so fast.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Okay. Here.
THE WITNESS: My name is Gladys E. Wendt. And my
address -- you want it?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: No, just spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: W-E-N-D-T.
THE COURT: Miss Wilkinson.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mrs. Wendt, you doing okay? Doing okay?
A. Doing fine.
Q. Have you had some health problems in the past?
A. Yeah, I've had a heart attack and I'm diabetic and I've had
cancer. I've had my share.
Q. Are you feeling okay today?
A. A little winded.
Q. Are you ready to tell the jury a little bit about yourself?
A. Well, I'm a farm wife.
Q. And how old are you?
A. I'm 75.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been married?
A. 56 years. Going on 57 in April.
Q. And you said you and your husband live on a farm; is that
Gladys Wendt - Direct
right?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you lived on a farm?
A. 57.
Q. And where is your farm?
A. White City.
Q. Is that --
A. About 10 miles northeast of Herington.
Q. You know Herington, Kansas?
A. Oh, yes. Lived there all my life.
Q. Do you have children?
A. Yes.
Q. Grand --
A. I had three, but I have one left. The other two died with
cancer.
Q. Do you have grandchildren?
A. Pardon?
Q. Do you have grandchildren?
A. I have eight grandchildren and four great-grandchildren.
Q. Do they all live around you in Kansas?
A. Well, no. Minnesota, and the rest of them live around
Kansas.
Q. Now, you said you lived on a farm in White City; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Gladys Wendt - Direct
Q. And you know Herington because you grew up in that area; is
that right?
A. Right.
Q. And do you have any relatives who live in Herington?
A. Oh, boy. Well, I'll just start out. My grandparents had
11 children, and you know how -- what happens then. The other
side had 14. So we're scattered all over the United States.
Q. And do some of those relatives live in Herington?
A. Yes.
Q. Some of those cousins and family members?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you've lived on the farm for 57 years; is that right?
A. Right. Right.
Q. Do you know a little bit about ammonium nitrate fertilizer?
A. Yes, I do. We use it with our farming, and I helped my
husband all those years with our harvesting; and I helped him
sow wheat, and we used it as a fertilizer in our fertilizer
bin. We put the wheat in behind it and the grain drill, sowed
it with the wheat.
Q. Now, would you recognize ammonium nitrate fertilizer if you
saw it?
A. Yes, I would.
Q. Tell the jury what it looks like.
A. Well, it's like a little white -- you know what sleet looks
like. Okay. It looks like sleet, just little pearl pebbles.
Gladys Wendt - Direct
Q. And they're white in color?
A. White in color. Snow white.
Q. You said you put it on your crops sometimes; is that right?
A. Yes; right.
Q. How do you put it onto your crops?
A. In the dry state. I use it with planting my potatoes. I
use a teaspoon with every plant, and you sprinkle around dry,
and that's the way you do with your crops. It's all sowed in
with a grain drill, and it's just a little here and there.
It's not, you know, real thick or heavy.
Q. Why is that? Why don't you want to put it on too heavy?
A. It would burn it up.
Q. And you've seen that happen before, I take it?
A. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Q. Now, in your 50 years or a little bit more of experience
with farming, have you ever ground up those ammonium nitrate
pearls --
A. No.
Q. -- before you applied it to your crops?
A. No, never.
Q. Never once?
A. Never.
Q. Now, let's go back to Herington, Kansas, if we could.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you have a cousin who lives in town in Herington?
Gladys Wendt - Direct
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What's her name?
A. Geraldine Hodson.
Q. Has she lived there for a while?
A. She's living there yet. She lives right across the street
from Nichols.
Q. Do you know Geraldine's address?
A. 110 South 2nd Street.
Q. And Mr. Nichols is across there at 109; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Do you go see your cousin Geraldine Hodson on occasion?
A. Every Friday. We get our hair done, and then we go to
coffee.
Q. Now, what time do you get your hair done -- when did you
say you go? I'm sorry.
A. Oh Friday.
Q. On Friday?
A. I go at 8:30 in the morning.
Q. You go every Friday at 8:30?
A. Every Friday.
Q. What do you do after that?
A. Then I go up to my cousin's place, pick her up. We go up
to the drugstore, and we have coffee. That's our day to hoot
and holler.
Q. That's your day off from the farm?
Gladys Wendt - Direct
A. You betcha.
Q. You look forward to that with your cousin?
A. Yes, we do. She's more of a sister than a cousin.
Q. Now, did you have an appointment at the beauty parlor on
April 21, 1995?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. That Friday?
A. Right.
Q. Did you go at 8:30?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what time you got finished?
A. It was about a quarter till 10, I'd say.
Q. Did you go on to Geraldine's house?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember arriving at her house?
A. Yes, I do. She was busy sweeping off the sidewalks.
Q. What did you do?
A. Oh, I drove up, and I was kind of waiting around for her to
get through so we could go have coffee; but I got out because
she said she was going to have to change her clothes, and so --
Q. Did you park your car right there in front of her house?
A. Right.
Q. Did you notice anything across the street?
A. I sure did.
Q. Tell the jury what you saw.
Gladys Wendt - Direct
A. Well, I saw Nichols -- but I never knew him, and that was
the first time I ever saw him.
Q. Why don't you just describe the man that you saw. What did
he look like?
A. Oh, medium-size guy, in jeans, and he had a light -- looked
like light blue or light gray shirt. He had light hair,
medium-size man, and he had a -- oh, I'd say a half-gallon,
clear plastic container.
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. And he was holding it in this arm and reaching in like this
and just whoosht like that all over the lawn.
Q. When you say "whoosht," what are you saying, he's tossing
it?
A. Broadcasting; when you broadcast seed or grain or anything,
that's how you do it. You throw it with your hand and it goes
all over.
Q. Did you see him doing that when you drove up?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was he still doing that when you got out of the car?
A. Yes, I did (sic).
Q. Could you see what he was tossing?
A. Pardon?
Q. Could you see what he was tossing?
A. Talking?
Q. Tossing.
Gladys Wendt - Direct
A. Oh, yes, yes, it was clear. It was the fertilizer.
Q. Was it in those --
A. Snow white in there. And it was little beads like pearls,
you know.
Q. Did you notice how his yard looked when he was doing that?
A. Getting pretty white. I almost told him, "You're putting
too much on there; you're going to burn it up."
Q. Did you tell him that?
A. No, I didn't. I thought, Keep your mouth zipped, pay
attention. You're just an old woman, so, I didn't tell him
anything. I walked to my cousin. We went in the house. She
got ready. We come back out, and she says, "Oh, my, he's still
spreading fertilizer."
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor.
THE COURT: Just a moment.
MR. TIGAR: Object to hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Tell us, Mrs. Wendt, what you saw -- when you came out of
the house with your cousin, what you saw. What did you see?
A. He was still spreading fertilizer, but I didn't pay that
much attention -- I didn't care. If he wanted to burn his
yard --
THE COURT: Please, please, just answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
Gladys Wendt - Direct
THE COURT: Don't go beyond the question.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mrs. Wendt, did you catch his eye at any time?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. He was busy, and so were we. We were going up to have
coffee.
Q. Did you notice if he went to the side of his yard?
A. Yes, he went to the side and down back.
Q. Could you see whether these fertilizer pearls that you
described were on the side of his yard?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they on both the front and the side?
A. Not on the other side, no. I never noticed anything,
'cause there's a cement driveway.
Q. Let me show you some photos, and you can tell the jury what
you saw.
A. Okay.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1778, No. 1, which is
already in evidence. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do. That's his house.
Q. Is that the house across from your cousin's?
A. Right.
Q. Is that the yard where you saw the man?
Gladys Wendt - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, right there in the front, do you see that
grassy area?
A. Yes; right.
Q. Could you see the grass that day?
A. Sure, just like it is there.
Q. Okay. What was on the grass?
A. Well, pebbles of fertilizer. White.
Q. What did it look like?
A. Well, little beads, you know.
Q. Was it -- was it on there heavy, or was it real thin?
A. Well, it was getting to look like snow and sleet mixture,
yes.
Q. Now, let me show you Government's Exhibit 1778, No. 3.
THE COURT: Which number was that you just showed?
MS. WILKINSON: 1778, No. 1.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that one side of the house across the street?
A. That's the north side of the house.
Q. Do you see the yard there on the side?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see that gentleman tossing ammonium nitrate on the
Gladys Wendt - Direct
side there?
A. Right.
Q. And what did the yard look like on the side when you saw
him doing that?
A. Well, I didn't pay that much attention to it. I know it
was just spreading, but I didn't look at it 'cause we was in
the car, going to the drugstore for our coffee.
Q. Okay. But are you sure he was tossing the fertilizer on
the front and the side of the yard?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Now, let me show you an exhibit that's not yet in evidence,
Government's Exhibit 58. Just take a look at your screen. The
jury can't see this. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the same house?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that also show the street?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's
Exhibit 58.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, ma'am. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one
Gladys Wendt - Voir Dire
of the lawyers appointed to help Terry Nichols.
A. Sure.
Q. That picture that you're -- that you're looking at there,
is that . . . basically the same -- that's the front of that
same house that you saw in the picture that I'm putting up on
the monitor --
A. Yes, it is.
Q. -- right now?
A. Yes.
Q. Just basically the same, it's only that it shows a slightly
different view?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And from the leaves on the trees in the picture that
I'm showing you, does it look like the one you're looking at
was taken about the same time? See the leaves on the --
A. Yeah, I saw the leaves there.
Q. Yeah. And did that -- was the tree just beginning to leaf
out that day?
A. Yes, because it was in April.
Q. In April.
A. Right. Everything was greening up for spring.
MR. TIGAR: Okay. Thank you.
Your Honor, it appears to be virtually the same
picture.
THE COURT: Well, is there some purpose in this?
Gladys Wendt - Voir Dire
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor; it has the roadway,
the street, part of the street, so Mrs. Wendt can use to
describe where she was parked.
THE COURT: All right.
Any objection with that?
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. 58 is received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mrs. Wendt, do you see this picture, Government's Exhibit
48 -- 58, excuse --
A. Yes, I see it.
Q. Does that show the street?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And see where that sticker is that says "58"?
A. Right.
Q. See right down there in the corner?
A. Right.
Q. Is Geraldine's house right across from there?
A. Right across, yes.
Q. And where were you parked?
A. Well, on the side of the street. When I step out, I'm
close to the center of the street.
Q. So how far were you, if we're looking at the street, from
that yard right there in Government's Exhibit 58, in that
Gladys Wendt - Direct
picture?
A. Probably from here to your desk.
Q. Did you have any problem seeing that man that day?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember how long it was when you first got out of
your -- when you first drove up and then you got out of your
car that you were able to look at him?
A. Two or three minutes, I guess. 'Cause I was waiting on her
to get the sidewalk swept up.
MR. TIGAR: If your Honor, please, there's no question
that she saw Mr. Nichols.
THE WITNESS: No. No question.
THE COURT: Please.
MR. TIGAR: We're conceding the identification, if
that's the story --
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
That will help, your Honor. Appreciate that.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, Mrs. Wendt, what time did you and your cousin leave,
do you think, to go for coffee?
A. Oh, gosh, probably about five till 10.
Q. Was Mr. Nichols still in his yard, when you left?
A. Right.
Q. What was he doing when you last saw him?
A. On the north side of the house, still spreading.
Gladys Wendt - Direct
Q. Spreading the fertilizer prills --
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. -- pearls?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, you're familiar with this street --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- South 2nd Street in Herington, aren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Are there any farms on this street?
A. Gosh, no.
MS. WILKINSON: We have no other --
THE WITNESS: No.
MS. WILKINSON: -- questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar, do you have some questions?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello again, Miss Wendt.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you need to take a sip of water before we start?
A. I think it would be better.
Q. All right. I'm going to put back up here again 1778, that
picture of the front of the house. Can you see that now?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Now, at the time that you saw Mr. Nichols out there in the
Gladys Wendt - Cross
front yard, there was no police tape there, was there?
A. No.
Q. That yellow tape wasn't on there?
A. No, no.
Q. When you and your cousin come back later on in the
afternoon, did you see the various police agencies arrive and
so on?
A. No. I didn't, no.
Q. Okay.
A. 'Cause I didn't come back till that evening. When I come
back, I couldn't get through. The street was blocked.
Q. When you come back, there was that police tape and there
was all kind of cars and officers and everything; right?
A. Yes. Right.
Q. And then later on in the evening, you met this gentleman
right here; correct?
A. Right.
Q. And you recognize him?
A. Tom -- Larry Tumgate (sic).
Q. Larry Tumgate; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Tumgate came over to your cousin's house and talked
to you; correct?
A. Right; uh-huh.
Q. Now, you told me a little earlier that things are starting
Gladys Wendt - Cross
to get green around the middle of April; right?
A. Right. Yes.
Q. Now, in the city, do the trees leaf out a little quicker
than they do out in the country?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. So that these -- this leafing out that we see here, for
whatever reason, it's warmer in the city, or not, that's a
little more advanced than it would be out where you live in
White City; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it your observation that this is about the time that
most folks' lawns start to -- start to come on and get green
off the winter; right?
A. Right. Yes.
Q. And were you able to see the other folks' lawns along the
street there, along, you know, 2nd Street?
A. Yeah. Some have beautiful lawns, some don't take care of
them. Yep. You notice them as you drive by.
Q. And as you noticed them, did you notice that this was the
time when people's lawns were starting to grow?
A. Right.
Q. And of course here's 1778, No. 2, along the side of
Mr. Nichols' house; and did you notice that this row of flowers
here -- did you happen to notice that on that day?
A. I didn't look at that, no. I don't remember seeing them.
Gladys Wendt - Cross
Q. But from your experience in living there, what does that
row look like there?
A. That's a bunch of tulips.
Q. Looks like tulips?
A. Right.
Q. Is that about the right season for the tulips to be coming
up?
A. Right. Right.
Q. Because in your part of the country, they come up before
the other things start; is that right?
A. Right. That's right. Right.
Q. And, now, Mr. Nichols out there in the yard, he had, you
said, a can that he was using?
A. Well, it was a plastic -- a plastic container. You can buy
ice cream at the Dairy Queen, comes in this type of a
container. And it's about a half-gallon size or just a tiny
bit larger. And that's what --
Q. And after you've eaten the ice cream out of it, you can use
it for other things; right?
A. Right. I do. I put it in my freezer with fruits and
everything.
Q. Because in farm country, you can recycle these plastic
items and use them over and over again?
A. Yes, you can.
Q. You didn't happen to see a bag, did you, like a fertilizer
Gladys Wendt - Cross
bag?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. No. So this case what he was using, he had a container
like you'd get from the Dairy Queen; and you say he was
broadcasting the seed? And I'm making a motion with my hands.
That's for -- for 56 years, you want to broadcast something,
you use that kind of a motion; right?
A. Right.
Q. Because you get a nice, even pattern as you're throwing it
out?
A. That's right.
Q. And that is what you saw him doing?
A. Right.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much. I have no further
questions.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mrs. Wendt, did you ever see Mr. Nichols leave the front
yard and go into his house, or go where you could not see him?
A. No, I didn't see him leave or come.
Q. Okay.
A. 'Cause we went in the house. When we come back, he was
still doing it.
Gladys Wendt - Redirect
Q. Do you know whether he ever refilled that plastic container
that you saw him using?
A. I didn't see him refill it, no.
Q. So you don't know whether he refilled it or not?
A. Well, he pretty near had to, because that was a big yard.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: One more.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Ma'am, do you remember if it had rained real hard that
week?
A. Oh, boy. It's been too long a time.
Q. All right. I won't tax your patience.
A. But there was a lot of heavy dew that morning. That I can
say because the grass sparkled with dew.
Q. Right. And you watch out for that in farm country;
right --
A. You betcha.
Q. You got cattle?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. And you can't let them out too much on the grass when it's
too wet early in the spring?
A. Well, they could be out there, but -- it wouldn't hurt
them, but dew won't hurt a cow.
Gladys Wendt - Recross
Q. All right.
A. No.
Q. All right. But you were watching? You were watching;
right?
A. Yeah.
Q. To see what the weather was like. Okay.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much. No further
questions.
THE COURT: Is she excused?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: We'll call FBI Agent Steve Smith.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Stephen Smith affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Stephen E. Smith, S-M-I-T-H.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. Mr. Smith, who do you work for?
A. Work for the FBI.
Q. And how long have you worked for the FBI?
A. Approximately 6 1/2 years.
Q. On April 21, 1995, did you participate in the interview of
the defendant on trial, Terry Lynn Nichols?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are you prepared to describe to the jury that
interview?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let me ask you at this time, Mr. Smith, to tell the jury a
little bit about your background. How old are you?
A. 31.
Q. All right. Recent birthday?
A. Yes.
Q. Making a calculation. Are you married?
A. Yes, sir. I'm married, and I have a small child.
Q. Where do you live?
A. I live in Topeka, Kansas.
Q. And what's your educational background?
A. I graduated from high school in St. Louis in 1984. I went
to Quincy College in Quincy, Illinois, from 1984 to 1988, where
I played soccer and basketball for a couple years. Graduated
with a degree in accounting in 1988.
Q. That was in Quincy College?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. Quincy College in Quincy, Illinois.
Q. And that sits on the Mississippi?
A. Across from Hannibal, Missouri.
Q. With your accounting degree, upon graduation in 1988, what
did you do?
A. I started working for an accounting firm by the name of
Arthur Andersen in St. Louis from 1988 to 1991.
Q. And what kinds of jobs or assignments did you have as an
accountant for Arthur Andersen?
A. I worked in the audit department at Arthur Andersen and
worked at various -- various companies doing audits on site for
manufacturing companies, for travel companies, for oil
concerns, financial institutions. When I left in 1991, I was
in charge of audit personnel.
Q. And something happened to encourage you to leave the
private sector, go to work for the FBI?
A. Yes, I wanted to get into law enforcement, and the FBI was
it.
Q. When did you make that switch?
A. I came to the FBI in May of 1991, after working for
approximately 2 1/2 years at Arthur Andersen.
Q. And as part of your entry training with the FBI, were you
trained with regard to your responsibilities as a special
agent?
A. Yes, sir.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. And how so and for how long?
A. I was -- we had training up at Quantico, Virginia, for
approximately 17 weeks prior to being sent to the field, and
that's when I came to Topeka, Kansas, was after the training in
Quantico.
Q. Have you been stationed or assigned to any other FBI office
other than Topeka since joining the FBI in 1991?
A. No, sir.
Q. What sort of territory are you responsible for working out
of the Topeka, Kansas FBI office?
A. The Topeka, Kansas office has a territory responsibility
for 18 counties in northeast Kansas, including the towns of
Topeka, Lawrence, Junction City, Fort Riley, Manhattan, Council
Grove.
Q. And could you give the jury an overview of the kinds of
investigations you have participated in during the past six
years?
A. I participated in kidnapping investigation, white-collar-
crime investigation, bankruptcy-fraud investigation, theft of
the government property, bank robberies, fugitives, drug cases,
numerous, numerous cases.
Q. In the course of carrying out those duties, has it fallen
to you to interview witnesses or potential witnesses or
individuals?
A. Yes, sir.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. And how many occasions, if you could estimate?
A. Hundreds of interviews -- I've completed hundreds of
interviews with witnesses.
Q. In your six years, how many bombing investigations have you
been a part of?
A. This is the only one.
Q. Let's direct our attention now, Agent Smith, to April of
1995 and specifically to the day of the bombing on April 19.
When were you first drawn into the investigation? When did you
first receive any assignment?
A. On April 19, in the late afternoon, I came back to Topeka,
found out that another agent from Salina, Kansas, had received
information about a Ryder dealership in Junction City, Kansas.
I went out to the Manhattan airport in order to meet a plane
from the FBI. And at that point on the 19th is when we had
kind of set up a room in a CID office at Fort Riley in order to
start our investigation.
Q. Who was the agent that you were referring to that first
responded to Elliott's?
A. That's Scott Crabtree from Salina.
Q. Where is Salina in relationship to Topeka?
A. Saline is a approximately 85 miles west of Topeka.
Q. Is Junction City sort of somewhere in the middle?
A. Correct.
Q. Can you tell us what you did, then, on Thursday, April 20,
Stephen Smith - Direct
relative to the bombing investigation?
A. Yes. In the early morning, at approximately 4:00 a.m., I
met a sketch artist from the FBI lab and brought him to
Junction City and actually to the command post at Fort Riley to
meet up with the witnesses from Elliott's Body Shop, Junction
City.
Q. On Thursday, April 20, did you spend any time at the
command post of the CID?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what took place there with regard to briefings of
agents like yourself on developments of the investigation?
A. We had received a briefing on the night of the 20th in
regards to what had transpired during the investigation in
Kansas at that point. We had found out that an individual had
registered at the Dreamland Motel by the name of Timothy
McVeigh; that he had used an address in Michigan of 3616 North
Van Dyke, in Decker, Michigan; and that this individual had
been seen with a Ryder truck the days before the bombing.
Q. Now, let's turn our attention, if we can, to Friday,
April 21. Did you report for duty that morning at the CID
headquarters?
A. Yes, sir. I arrived at the CID office at approximately
7:45 in the morning on the 21st.
Q. And in the course of that day, did you have occasion to go
to Herington, Kansas?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And why?
A. I went to Herington, Kansas, in the early afternoon in
order to obtain background information on Terry Nichols.
Q. In the course of that morning, had you received the name
"Terry Lynn Nichols" and an address in Herington?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was your specific assignment with regard to that
name and address, as of that morning?
A. As of that morning, I was tasked to go to Herington,
Kansas, and obtain background information on Terry Nichols.
Q. Did you do so? Did you make the drive from Junction City
to Herington?
A. Yes, sir. I went to -- from Junction City to Herington and
arrived shortly before 2:00 p.m. on Friday, the 21st. And I'd
been given an address of 901 South 2nd Street in Herington,
Kansas, as being Terry's -- Terry Nichols's address. I went by
901 South 2nd Street, and there was no address (sic) for that
specific address. And after that, I went to the police
department in order to find out any information I possibly
could on Terry Nichols.
Q. Agent Smith, were you by yourself, or did you have any
other agent accompany you on this trip to Herington?
A. I was by myself.
Q. Had you been to Herington, Kansas, before the afternoon of
Stephen Smith - Direct
April 21?
A. I had not been to Herington, Kansas, before. Herington,
Kansas, is not part of the territory that I had responsibility
over.
Q. You told the jury that upon arriving or shortly thereafter,
you went to the police station.
Do you know where that is located in the city of
Herington?
A. Yes. The police station is at the corner of Broadway and
Holly in Herington, Kansas.
Q. Take a look, Agent Smith, for Government Exhibit 1934.
Tell us, please, if you know what that is.
A. Yes, this is an aerial view of Herington, Kansas.
Q. And does it depict the location of the police station or
the public safety building, I should say, in Herington?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Government
Exhibit 1934.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 1934 received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Smith, we'll start with this particular exhibit, with
a long-range view. Can you use the pen and reach down below
your desk and circle the location, if you can, of the public
safety building?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. Excuse me.
MR. MACKEY: I'm sorry.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Smith, there's a pen up there with a wire on it. Did
you grab the wrong pen?
A. Yes.
Q. My fault, bad instructions. And what is it that you're
marking there?
A. That is the Herington Department of Public Safety.
Q. Which direction is the top of this photo?
A. Top of the photo is north.
Q. And can you, from this photo, locate South 2nd Street?
A. Yes, sir. South 2nd Street is this street right here.
Excuse me. It's kind of crooked.
Q. I apologize, Agent Smith, it may not be calibrated
precisely. That's okay for purposes right now.
A. Excuse me.
Q. Let me ask you, what time did you leave the public safety
building this afternoon?
A. Approximately 2:15 p.m.
Q. And where did you go when you left?
A. I left the Department of Public Safety, and I drove by 109
South 2nd Street, because that is the address that the director
of the public safety had given me as a current address for
Terry Lynn Nichols.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. When you drove by 109 South 2nd that Friday afternoon, what
did you see?
A. There was a blue pickup truck with a white camper shell
parked in the driveway that afternoon.
Q. Do you recall approximately what time of the day it was
that you first drove by and saw the vehicle you've described?
A. At approximately 2:25 p.m.
Q. After doing so, what did you do next, Agent Smith?
A. I drove to a bank parking lot at 1st and Day and met up
with another FBI agent.
Q. An who was that, by name?
A. Jack Foley.
Q. And how had you first come to know that Agent Foley had
arrived in Herington?
A. I noticed him on 1st Street, and we met up at the bank at
1st and Day.
Q. And approximately what time in the afternoon did that
happen?
A. Approximately 2:25.
Q. That is immediately after you had driven past the house?
A. That is correct.
Q. To your knowledge, were there any other FBI agents in
Herington, as of that time?
A. No, there were not.
Q. Tell us, then, what you and Agent Foley did.
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. Agent Foley and I drove and set up a surveillance of Terry
Nichols' house south of his house. We were set up on the east
side of the street, approximately 70 to 100 yards south of
Terry Nichols' house. We were just south of McClaren and 2nd
Street, which is this street right south of his house.
Q. And approximately -- again, if you can -- what time did you
and Agent Foley set up stationary surveillance?
A. At approximately 2:30 p.m. that afternoon.
Q. Do you recall how you and Agent Foley were dressed on that
day?
A. We were in casual clothes. We did not have any suit or tie
on at that time.
Q. And describe Agent Foley's car, the car in which the two of
you were seated.
A. Jack Foley -- Agent Foley had a four-door, green Cutlass
Supreme.
Q. At some point shortly after starting your surveillance, did
you notice any activity, vehicular activity at the Nichols
residence?
A. Yes. I saw a pickup truck leave the residence at
approximately quarter to 3.
Q. Could you tell the jury what happened when that started?
A. Yes. I noticed a man carrying a small child -- the man who
later introduced himself to me as Terry Nichols -- carrying a
small child, get into the driver's side of the pickup truck,
Stephen Smith - Direct
and a young woman get into the passenger's side of the pickup
truck. They left the driveway and headed south on 2nd Street
in our direction.
Q. Now, at that point in time -- that is, when the vehicle
began moving -- to your knowledge, had any other FBI agents
arrived in Herington?
A. The agents in Herington at that time were Jack Foley and
myself, and we were in Jack Foley's car; and there was an FBI
airplane, surveillance airplane, that was in the area also.
And I knew that there were more agents that were coming.
Q. This is by virtue of radio communication?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, after -- well, let me ask you: Did the pickup truck
drive past you and Mr. Foley?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe what happened as the truck passed you.
A. The truck passed us and took a right-hand turn heading west
on Sturgis, the next street south of McClaren.
Q. Now, as the truck passed you, did you make eye contact with
the driver or the passenger?
A. As the truck passed us, I averted my eyes and did not make
eye contact with the driver or the passenger.
Q. Once it passed your position, did you see where they went?
A. Yes. I saw that the truck had taken a right-hand turn or
headed west on Sturgis, the next street south of McClaren.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. And what did you and Agent Foley do in response?
A. Agent Foley turned around the car at McClaren, and we
followed and went the same direction that the truck had gone.
Q. Can you estimate or describe at what speed the Nichols
pickup truck was moving?
A. The Nichols pickup truck was moving at a very slow rate of
speed that I would estimate at approximately 10 miles per hour.
Q. And what happened next, as you began to follow it?
A. We followed -- we continued south on 2nd Street, and we
also took a right heading west on Sturgis; and when we turned
right on Sturgis, we noticed that the pickup truck was taking a
left-hand turn on 3rd Street, heading south. We continued on
Sturgis; and as we got to the corner of Sturgis and 3rd Street,
we noticed that the vehicle was still in the same block of 3rd
Street before coming up to Trapp.
Q. Let's go back to the aerial, if you don't mind, Agent
Smith, and we'll try it one more time; and if it doesn't work,
that's fine. Draw on the aerial, please, the route that you
saw the Nichols truck take up to this point in your testimony.
A. The Nichols truck left the house on 2nd Street, went south
on 2nd Street, and then west on Sturgis, and then south on 3rd
Street.
Q. And what is the east/west street that intersects 3rd Street
at the point of your pen?
A. That is Trapp in Herington. And then it turns into
Stephen Smith - Direct
Business 56 as you go out of town.
Q. Did you see which direction Mr. Nichols turned at that
intersection of 3rd and Trapp?
A. Yes, sir. We noticed that Mr. Nichols turned right and
headed west on Trapp Street, and Jack Foley and I drove down
and also turned right heading west on Trapp and noticed that
his vehicle, Terry Nichols's vehicle had turned south on 56.
Q. And could you see Mr. Nichols' truck continue south, then,
on 56?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols' truck continued south on 56 and
proceeded for approximately a quarter mile to a business and
then took a left into a business right here.
Q. Do you know the name of the business that the truck pulled
into?
A. Yes, this is Surplus City.
Q. What happened then?
A. Jack Foley and I proceeded to drive south on -- on Highway
56 and noticed that the driver -- who later was introduced to
me as Terry Nichols -- get out of the pickup truck and head
towards the door of the Surplus City. Terry Nichols then
turned around and headed back towards his pickup truck, and we
proceeded further south on 56 to the next business and turned
around there.
Q. At that point in time, as you were continuing south on
Highway 56, did you see any other FBI vehicles?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. Yes. As we were heading south on 56, I noticed a vehicle
that was driven by Tom Price, who was a surveillance squad
supervisor.
Q. And which direction was Agent Price headed?
A. Agent Price was heading north on Highway 56.
Q. Did you turn around and head back up north 56?
A. Yes. I -- we turned around at the next business and headed
north on 56.
Q. And where was the pickup when you got back to Surplus City?
A. When we got back to Surplus City, the pickup truck was no
longer there.
Q. Agent Smith, again circle for members of the jury where the
police station is on this aerial and leave that mark on your
screen for a moment.
A. It's like here. And I would like to make one correction
here, sir. Surplus City is down here. I had not gone down far
enough. So this is the Surplus City down here. Excuse me.
Q. All right. When you got back to the Surplus City and
discovered that the pickup truck was gone, did you receive any
radio communications as to where it had been spotted?
A. Yes. Both Jack Foley and I heard on the radio that the
car -- the vehicle had turned around and backtracked and gone
back north on 56 into Herington and had ended up at the police
department.
Q. And what did you do when you learned that?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. We -- we turned around and went north on 56 and headed into
the police department, also.
Q. When you got there, did you see the Nichols pickup truck?
A. Yes. We arrived at the police department and noticed Terry
Nichols' pickup truck parked directly in front of the police
department, and there was no one in the pickup truck at that
point.
Q. How many other FBI vehicles did you see at the public
safety building when you arrived?
A. There were approximately three other FBI vehicles at the
police department when we arrived.
MR. MACKEY: All right. We can remove Government
Exhibit 1934. Thank you.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Smith, when you arrived at the public safety
building, did you go inside immediately?
A. No, sir. We waited outside.
Q. And why did you do so?
A. We wanted to make sure that there was no hostage situation
or any type of problems inside.
Q. Were you ultimately satisfied that you could enter the
building?
A. Yes, sir. Approximately 10 minutes later.
Q. And when did you first go in?
A. We went in at approximately 3:10 p.m. on the afternoon of
Stephen Smith - Direct
April 21.
Q. And who went in with you?
A. I went in, Jack Foley went in, Mike Gillispie went in, and
Tom Price went in. All four of us are agents from the Kansas
City division.
Q. Before the group of you, individuals who you've identified,
went inside, did you talk among yourselves as to what, if any,
authority you would have to arrest Terry Nichols?
A. Yes. We had decided and we had also learned that we had no
arrest warrants at all for Terry Nichols at that point and that
if he wanted to go, he was free to go at any time that he so
chose.
Q. When you entered the police station that afternoon, who did
you first encounter?
A. I encountered Director Dale Kuhn, who I had spoken to
approximately an hour previous to that, and identified the
other three agents with me. And Director Kuhn told me that
Terry Nichols and his family were in the officers' room
directly inside the police department and Terry Nichols had
asked Director Kuhn why his name had been mentioned on the
news. Director Kuhn had told Terry Nichols he did not know why
his name was mentioned on the news.
Q. And shortly thereafter, with that background, did you go
into the waiting room where Mr. Nichols and his family were?
A. Yes, Director Kuhn brought us into the room and introduced
Stephen Smith - Direct
us to Terry Nichols as FBI agents and that we were individuals
who could answer his questions.
Q. Do you recall the first exchange -- that is,
conversation -- between either yourself and other FBI agents
and Mr. Nichols when you entered the officers' room?
A. Yes, Mr. Nichols addressed us and asked us why his name had
been mentioned in the news as being involved in the Oklahoma
City bombing, and the other agent told Mr. Nichols we did not
know why his name was mentioned in the news but that we had
some questions for him. And Terry Nichols then responded,
"Good, because I have some questions for you."
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1937. If you would
take the pen, when you get a free hand, and click it.
Recognize what's shown in the photograph that's marked
Government Exhibit 1937?
A. Yes, this is the officers' room that we were first
introduced to Terry Nichols on the afternoon of April 21.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Government
Exhibit 1937.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. And is this the room in which you first met Mr. Nichols on
Friday afternoon, the 21st?
A. Yes, sir.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. After the initial conversation you've already described,
what happened next?
A. We did a pat-down search of Terry Nichols, and then myself
and Agent Foley followed Terry Nichols and Director Kuhn down
to the basement of the Herington Department of Public Safety.
Q. Prior to that day, had you been inside the facility itself,
the public safety building?
A. No, sir, I had not.
Q. Only in the public area?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you familiar with what interview rooms were available
inside that building?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Who made the selection, then, of what place it would --
that interview would take place?
A. Director Kuhn decided that it would be best to have the
interview conducted down in the basement where it was a large
meeting room where there would be less interruptions.
Q. And what time did the interview of Terry Lynn Nichols begin
on Friday, April 21?
A. At approximately 3:18 p.m.
Q. And at what time did it end?
A. Shortly after midnight that night, the next morning.
Q. During that time period, between -- after 3:00 and after
midnight, were there any breaks taken during this interview
Stephen Smith - Direct
session?
A. Yes, there were three breaks taken, totaling approximately
two hours.
Q. And could you give the jury an overview as to the role you
played during the course of that interview?
A. Yes. I took handwritten, contemporaneous notes of the
items -- or the things that Mr. Nichols had mentioned during
the interview. I'm usually teamed up with one other FBI agent
that would do most of the questioning. I also asked questions
of Terry Nichols, and it was normally myself and one other
agent. But my main focus was to take handwritten notes of the
interview.
Q. Agent Smith, take a look inside your folder for Exhibit
1924.
What are those, please.
A. These are the handwritten notes that I took during the
interview of Terry Nichols.
Q. Were those the notes that you made, beginning at 3:18 in
the afternoon until shortly after midnight on that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do they contain notes that you made at the time of
statements made by Mr. Nichols?
A. That's correct.
Q. In your presence?
A. Yes, sir.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. How many total pages of handwritten notes are made a part
of Exhibit 1924?
A. There's 22 pages of handwritten notes.
Q. Agent Smith, I mean no insult by this question, but do you
have good handwriting?
A. I do not have good handwriting, and I've been told that
it's very illegible.
Q. At my request, did you have those same handwritten notes
typed up?
A. Yes, sir. We had these typed up and transcribed into a
little more legible --
Q. Take a look at Government Exhibit 1926.
What is that, please.
A. Government Exhibit 1926 is the typewritten version of the
handwritten notes.
Q. How many pages of typewritten notes are there?
A. 24 pages.
Q. Take a look finally at Government Exhibit 1923.
And identify that for the record.
A. Yes. 1923 is a report of the interview of Terry Nichols.
It's commonly referred to as an FD 302; and this is the report
that I prepared based on my handwritten notes and recollection
of the interview.
Q. Now, in addition to the notes that you took at the time and
the 302 report you prepared later, based on those notes and
Stephen Smith - Direct
other things, did you prepare any other documents?
A. Yes. I prepared an interview log, also, in addition to the
302; and the interview log contained certain times as to what
agents were in the room at that particular time, when breaks
were taken, when documents were signed.
Q. Take a look at Government Exhibit 1925. And for the
record, what is that?
A. 1925 is the interview log that I prepared based on my notes
and recollection of the interview.
Q. And generally speaking, what kind of information is
intended to be captured on the interview log?
A. The time that you start an interview, when you finish an
interview, when breaks are taken, when certain documents are
signed. It captures when certain agents are in the room and
when agents leave the room.
Q. Agent Smith, did you prepare the entries that became a part
of Government Exhibit 1925?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit 1925.
MR. WOODS: May I look at --
THE COURT: Yeah, sure.
MR. WOODS: -- that, your Honor?
Thank you.
Thank you.
No objection, your Honor.
Stephen Smith - Direct
THE COURT: 1925, received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Smith, I'm going to have some questions for you about
statements made during the interview. If you want to just
leave your notes and 302 up there handy, please do so, so you
can reach them.
During the course of the interview of Mr. Nichols on
Friday afternoon, did you tape-record anything that was said?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And why is that?
A. It is not my practice to tape-record statements, and the
FBI policy on tape-recording statements is that they are, as a
general rule -- statements are not tape-recorded.
Q. Agent Smith, I want to show the jury photographs of the
room in which the interview took place. Could you identify
Government's Exhibits 1936 -- excuse me, 1938, '39, and '40.
A. 1938, 1939, and 1940 are all photographs of the basement
area where we conducted the interview.
Q. Do they accurately depict the interview room?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit these three
exhibits, 1938, '39, and '40.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. Agent Smith, we'll begin with 1938. Will you describe with
your own words what we're looking at.
A. Yes. This is in the basement of the Herington Department
of Public Safety, and this is the open meeting area where the
interview was conducted.
Q. Let's take a look, please, at 1939.
And what's shown in this photograph?
A. This is another part of the downtown -- I'm sorry -- the
downstairs room in the Herington Department of Public Safety.
And this is where we actually interviewed Terry Nichols. Terry
Nichols sat in the orange, two-armed chair. It was closest to
the stairwell. I sat in the middle chair, and another agent
would sit in the other -- in the black chair.
Q. All right. And Government Exhibit 1940?
A. 1940 is again in the basement of the Herington Department
of Public Safety. It's a hallway going back to the rest rooms
that were used on the breaks during the interview.
Q. And the stairwell to the far left in this photograph leads
to where?
A. This leads to the main floor of the Herington Department of
Public Safety.
Q. Other than yourself, who initiated the interview of
Mr. Nichols that Friday afternoon?
A. Another agent by the name of Jack Foley.
Q. And can you begin to tell us now what you and Agent Foley
Stephen Smith - Direct
learned from Mr. Nichols at the outset of the interview?
A. The first questions that we asked Terry Nichols were in
regards to his date of birth, which he gave as 4-1, or April 1,
1955, and his Social Security account number, which he gave as
371-68-4869.
Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Nichols tell you about his
Social Security number?
A. Terry Nichols told us that he did not use his Social
Security number anymore and he was not sure if the number that
he had given us was actually his Social Security number. Terry
Nichols also said that his Kansas driver's license number was a
computer-generated number because he did not use his Social
Security number for his driver's license.
Q. At the outset of the interview with you and Agent Foley,
did you ask him anything about what he did for a living?
A. Yes. We asked him what he did for a living, and he advised
that he sold military surplus items at gun shows that he would
attend. Those items would include hand shovels, axes, surplus
sandbags, and the like.
Q. When he went through the list of items that he sold at gun
shows when first asked that afternoon, did he mention selling
ammonium nitrate?
A. No. Terry Nichols did not mention that he sold ammonium
nitrate at gun shows until approximately eight hours later,
approximately 11:20 p.m. that night.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. During the very first minutes of the interview, Mr. Smith,
did Mr. Nichols make any statements to you as to why he had
left his home that afternoon?
A. Yes. Terry Nichols said that he had heard on a radio
broadcast his name and his brother's name in relation to the
Oklahoma City bombing as being involved in the bombing, said he
came home and heard that another individual that he believed
was Timothy McVeigh had been arrested for the bombing. He
advised that he left his house that afternoon because he did
not want another Waco.
Q. At that point in the interview, Agent Smith, had anybody
else used the word "Waco"?
A. No. No, sir.
Q. Again, early in the interview with you and Agent Foley, did
Mr. Nichols say anything as to what he'd did -- what he had
done after he left the house?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols had advised us that he had left his house
and that he had gone to the Surplus City, gotten out of his
truck at the Surplus City, had a feeling that he was being
followed, got back into his truck, and had come to the police
department.
Q. Again, early in the interview, did Mr. Nichols address any
questions to you and Agent Foley?
A. Yes. Terry Nichols asked Agent Foley and myself the same
question he had asked us upstairs in regards to why his name
Stephen Smith - Direct
had been mentioned in the news as being involved in the
Oklahoma City bombing and that he could not understand why his
name had been -- had been mentioned as being involved.
Q. Now, when you first met Mr. Nichols upstairs, in the course
of that first conversation, did he express a willingness to sit
down and answer questions?
A. Yes, sir. He did. In reference to that he said that he
had some questions for us and that he would be willing to come
downstairs and talk with us.
Q. Early in the interview, did there come a time when you and
Agent Foley told Mr. Nichols that he didn't have to talk to
you?
A. Yes, sir. Agent Foley Mirandized Terry Nichols within 10
minutes of us going downstairs. And we told him that he was
free to go and that he did not have to talk to us.
Q. Do you recall what statement Mr. Nichols had made
immediately before the decision was made to advise him of his
rights?
A. Yes. Right prior to us advising him of his rights, he had
mentioned that Timothy McVeigh had stayed with him at a -- at
his -- at his brother's farm in Decker, Michigan, with an
address of 3616 North Van Dyke in Decker, Michigan.
Q. Did you recognize the Decker address that Mr. Nichols gave
you?
A. I recognized the address that Terry Nichols had given us as
Stephen Smith - Direct
being the same address that Timothy McVeigh had used to
register at the Dreamland Motel on the Friday before the
bombing.
Q. Would you describe to the jury how the Miranda warnings
were administered to Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes. The Miranda warnings were administered to Mr. Nichols
orally and in writing. At approximately 3:26, Jack Foley, the
other agent, gave the form, the FD 395 advice-of-rights form,
to Terry Nichols and told Terry Nichols to read the form out
loud to us.
Terry Nichols read the form out loud to us and stopped
after every -- every sentence or paragraph and reviewed what he
had just read and then handed us the form back at approximately
3:31 p.m.
Q. And is there a place on the form -- excuse me -- for a
person who has read it to sign it and acknowledge having read
it?
A. Yes, there's a place on that form for that acknowledgment.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols sign the form that you read to him that
afternoon?
A. No. Mr. Nichols did not sign the advice-of-rights form.
And he -- the reason he gave for not signing the form was that
there was -- the word "interrogation" at the top of the form
and that he did not like the word "interrogation" because it
reminded him of the Nazis.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. At that point in the interview, had anyone used the term
"Nazis"?
A. No, sir.
Q. Let me show you, please, if you'll look in your folder,
Exhibit 1928.
Can you identify for the record what that document is?
A. Yes. This is the advice-of-rights form that we gave Terry
Nichols for him to read, and this is the form that we signed in
Terry Nichols' presence that he had read.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Government
Exhibit 1928.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Let's zoom in, if we can, at the very top of this document,
1928. And read into the record, please, the title of that
particular form.
A. "Interrogation, Advice of Rights."
Q. And immediately below that?
A. "Your rights."
Q. Now, there's some handwriting below that on the right-hand
side of the document. Is that your handwriting?
A. This handwriting is Jack Foley's handwriting, showing the
place, date, and time of the administration of the rights form.
Q. And what time is shown?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. 3:26 p.m.
Q. And what time is that to represent?
A. That represents the time that we started the advice-
of-rights form, and that's when we gave the form to Terry
Nichols for him to read out loud.
Q. All right. If we can zoom in on the portion containing the
rights themselves.
Mr. Smith, would you read into the record the rights
that were advised to Mr. Nichols on that Friday afternoon.
A. "Before we ask you any questions, you must understand your
rights. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say
can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk
to a lawyer for advice before we ask you any questions and to
have a lawyer with you during questioning. If you can't afford
a lawyer, one will be appointed for you before any questioning,
if you wish. If you decide to answer questions now without a
lawyer present, you will still have the right to stop answering
anytime. You also have the right to stop answering at any time
until you talk to a lawyer."
Q. During the course of that afternoon, did you witness
Mr. Nichols read those same words out loud?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at the bottom of the form, under the title "Waiver of
Rights" -- if we could zoom that up, please. And please, read
that into the record.
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. "Waiver of Rights. I have read this statement of my
rights, and I understand what my rights are. I'm willing to
make a statement and answer questions. I do not want a lawyer
at this time. I understand and know what I am doing. No
promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or
coercion of any kind has been used against me."
Q. And there's a blank for the signature?
A. Yes, there's a blank --
Q. Or a line, I should say?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And on this form, Exhibit 1928, there's -- there is no
signature?
A. That's correct.
Q. To the left, tell us what signatures appear there and why.
A. That is for Special Agent Jack Foley, and my signature is
below that. We were the two agents that had administered the
rights of Terry Nichols.
Q. And the time that's reflected at the bottom of this form is
what?
A. 3:31 is the time that Terry Nichols handed the form back to
us for our signature after he had read the form.
Q. And did you make the handwritten notation that appears then
below that entry?
A. Yes. At approximately 3:43, I made the notation that
Nichols acknowledged that he understood his constitutional
Stephen Smith - Direct
rights but refused to sign this FD 395 form.
Q. After reading the form to Mr. Nichols and after his review
in your presence, did he make any statement to you as to
whether in fact he understood his rights?
A. Yes. He advised that he understood his rights and that he
wished to talk to the agents -- to myself and Jack Foley but
that he just did not want to sign the form.
Q. And how did you and Agent Foley handle that situation?
A. We told Terry Nichols that this was not imperative or -- it
was not imperative for him to sign the form. We wanted to make
sure that he understood his rights that he did not have to
speak with us and that he was free to go at that time.
Q. And did ultimately thereafter Mr. Nichols begin making
additional statements to you and Agent Foley?
A. Yes. At approximately 3:43, we started the interview
again.
Q. What took place between 3:31 when you had finished reading
the form through with Mr. Nichols and 3:43, or thereabouts,
when the interview resumed?
A. Terry Nichols was deciding whether he wanted to speak with
us. And he advised that he understood his rights and that he
did wish to speak with us; and at that point, it took
approximately 10 to 12 minutes for him to decide that he wanted
to continue the interview but he just did not want to sign the
form.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. And ultimately, at 3:43, were you satisfied that he
understood his rights and was prepared and willing to make
additional statements?
A. Yes, and he fully said that he did understand his rights
and that he did want to speak with us.
Q. How long did you and Agent Foley continue to interview
Mr. Nichols; that is, just the two of you?
A. We interviewed Mr. Nichols for approximately the next half
an hour, from 3:43 p.m. until 4:12 p.m. before other agents
arrived.
Q. By names, what other agents arrived shortly after 4?
A. Agents Scott Crabtree and Dan Jablonski.
Q. Before the other two agents arrived and just with yourself
and Agent Foley present, did Mr. Nichols make statements to the
two of you about when he had last seen Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes. The first question we asked Mr. Terry Nichols after
the advice of rights was when he had last seen Tim McVeigh.
Terry Nichols advised that he had last seen Tim
McVeigh on Sunday. And he immediately said, "In my eyes, I did
not do anything wrong; but I see how lawyers can turn things
around." Terry Nichols then said he did not know anything
about the bombing before it happened and he was hesitant to
talk because of the way lawyers can turn stuff around.
Q. These comments that you have made or described to the jury:
Those were from Mr. Nichols?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. Yes, those are comments that Mr. Nichols made.
Q. In conjunction to his response to your first question,
"When did you last see Tim McVeigh?"
A. That's correct.
Q. Early in that interview with you and Agent Foley, did you
ask him if he had any knowledge as to where Tim McVeigh had
stayed?
A. Our next question was in regards to where Timothy
McVeigh -- if he had seen Timothy McVeigh recently at any motel
in Junction City or knew where he was staying. Terry Nichols
responded that he did not know; that he had not seen Timothy
McVeigh in any motel in Junction City.
Q. Agent Smith, why did you ask Terry Nichols that question?
A. We asked Terry Nichols that question because we had reason
to believe that Timothy McVeigh had checked into the Dreamland
Motel on the Friday before the bombing, April 14, until the day
before the bombing, on April 18.
Q. Do you recall what subject matter you next asked
Mr. Nichols about?
A. We asked Mr. Nichols if he knew anything about Timothy
McVeigh having a Ryder truck.
Q. And why did you ask that question?
A. We asked that question because we knew that an individual
had seen Timothy McVeigh at the Dreamland Motel with a Ryder
truck prior to the bombing and we also knew that the bomb truck
Stephen Smith - Direct
had been rented from Elliott's Body Shop, a short distance away
in Junction City, from the Dreamland Motel.
Q. And how did Mr. Nichols respond when asked about seeing
Mr. McVeigh with a Ryder truck?
A. He said that he had not seen McVeigh -- seen Mr. McVeigh
with a Ryder truck.
Q. Do you recall what Mr. Nichols next told you and Agent
Foley?
A. Yes. The next thing that he told us was that he had seen
McVeigh in Oklahoma City on Sunday.
Q. And what other details, if any, did he give you at that
point in the interview about having seen Mr. McVeigh in
Oklahoma City?
A. He said that he had -- that he had sent a -- I'm sorry. He
had gone to Las Vegas the previous November and dropped a TV
set off to his wife and his son and that two months prior to
the bombing, which would have been February of 1995, he had
sent a letter to Timothy McVeigh requesting that if he was in
the Las Vegas area, to come and pick that TV set up. He said
that he had received a call on Easter Sunday from Timothy
McVeigh asking him to come down to Oklahoma City because he was
experiencing car problems and that if he didn't come down that
he could not pick up his TV set.
Q. Agent Smith, did Mr. Nichols describe that phone call as
one he expected, or was a surprise?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. No, he said that he had not expected that phone call
because he had had no contact with Tim McVeigh except the
letter that he had sent him in February of 1995, so the call he
received on April 16, Sunday, Easter Sunday of 1995 was a call
that he was not expecting from Tim McVeigh.
Q. What else did Mr. Nichols tell you and Agent Foley about
the content of the phone call on Easter Sunday?
A. Mr. Nichols told us that Mr. McVeigh had told him that he
should come down to Oklahoma City and gave him specific
directions to possibly come down 8th Street and told us that
Mr. McVeigh -- I'm sorry -- Mr. McVeigh told Terry Nichols that
he should drive around the downtown area in Oklahoma City and
that Mr. McVeigh would find Terry Nichols.
Q. Early in the interview with just yourself and Agent Foley,
did Mr. Nichols tell you what he did after he got that phone
call?
A. Yes. He told us he went down to Oklahoma City and picked
up Timothy McVeigh and his TV.
Q. Did he tell you early in the interview what he did after
doing so?
A. Yes. He said he picked up Timothy McVeigh and drove back
to Junction City, Kansas.
Q. Where in Junction City?
A. He said he had driven him back and dropped him off at a
closed McDonald's in Junction City.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. Do you recall what time of day or night it was that
Mr. Nichols told you had dropped Mr. McVeigh off on Easter
Sunday?
A. He said that it was late at night on Easter Sunday or early
the next morning.
Q. Again, early in the interview, did Mr. Nichols make any
statements about Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. Yes, he said that Mr. McVeigh said that the car that he
bought was cheap and that he did not know if it was worth
fixing. And Terry Nichols said that he felt that the car that
Timothy McVeigh had in Oklahoma City, he was leaving in
Oklahoma City.
Q. And what, if any, statement did he make at that point in
the interview about where Mr. McVeigh was staying in Junction
City?
A. He said that he did not know where Mr. McVeigh was staying
but that he was going to call a friend in Junction City.
Q. Did you and Agent Foley ask Mr. Nichols what it was that he
and Mr. McVeigh had talked about during the drive back from
Oklahoma City to Junction City?
A. Yes. We asked Mr. Nichols what they had talked about. He
said that Mr. McVeigh had been vague on a lot of things and
that he could not recall many specifics of the conversation
they had from Oklahoma City to Junction City.
Q. Did the word or subject "Waco" come up again early in the
Stephen Smith - Direct
interview with just yourself and Agent Foley present?
A. Yes. Terry Nichols said that when he goes to gun shows, he
has people who come by his table who say that the FBI and the
ATF murdered all the people in Waco and that he lets them say
it. He also said that people come by his table and say that
the government is getting out of hand and that sometimes he
feels that way, also.
Q. The comment that "I let them say that": Is that words that
Nichols told you and Agent Foley?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was in reference to complaints about federal law
enforcement responsibility for events at Waco?
A. That's correct.
Q. When Mr. Nichols made these comments about Waco, did you or
Agent Foley ask any follow-up questions?
A. Yes. We asked Terry Nichols if he and Timothy McVeigh had
discussed Waco on the trip up from Oklahoma City to Junction
City. Terry Nichols stated that it's possible that McVeigh
mentioned Waco but that he could not recall any specifics.
Q. Again, early in the interview with just yourself and Agent
Foley, did Mr. Nichols make any additional statements about
when he had last seen McVeigh prior to picking him up in
Oklahoma City on Easter Sunday?
A. Yes. He had said that McVeigh's vehicle in -- that he had
felt was left in Oklahoma City was an older model and that he
Stephen Smith - Direct
didn't know if it was worth fixing. In that reference he had
mentioned that Timothy McVeigh had purchased two or three
vehicles since the last time he had met him, the last time he
had seen him. That was in November of 1994.
Q. So early in the interview with yourself and Agent Foley, he
represented to you that he had last seen Mr. McVeigh in
November of 1994?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that was in connection, again, with what topic or
subject matter?
A. In topic of him -- Timothy McVeigh's vehicles.
Q. At that point in the interview, were you joined by other
agents?
A. Yes. At approximately 4:12 p.m., Agents Jablonski and
Crabtree entered the interview room.
Q. Tell the jury, please, what happened when they arrived.
A. They knocked on the door and came in. I introduced both
Agents Crabtree and Jablonski to Terry Nichols, and I took the
initiative to tell Terry Nichols what we would do is we would
review the notes that we had already talked about with the new
agents so the new agents would know what we had previously
discussed during the interview.
Q. So before you did so, you told Mr. Nichols of your intent
to do so?
A. Yes, sir.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. And did Mr. Nichols say anything at that point in time when
you told him you would be reading from your notes and briefing
the newly arrived agents?
A. Yes. I told Terry Nichols that I would be just reading my
notes of things that he had already told us and told him to pay
close attention as to what I was reading to make sure that the
notes I had taken were accurate and that they had reflected
what he had told us already.
Q. And what did he say?
A. He said that he would do that, and then I did read them out
loud to the new agents.
Q. Before doing so, at any point in that time, did Mr. Nichols
make any request about the notes?
A. Yes. He -- Mr. Nichols asked if he could get a copy of the
notes at that point.
Q. Now, of the hundreds of interviews you had conducted to
that point in time, had anyone else asked you for copies of
your notes of the interview?
A. No. No one has ever asked for copies of my notes.
Q. Describe what you did with the newly arrived agents.
A. I reviewed my notes that we had already gone over, and I
just read the notes as they -- as I had taken them; and I told
Terry Nichols to stop me at any point and tell me if I had made
any inaccurate note-taking or if he wanted to make any
additions to the notes that I had -- I had prepared.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. And what was Mr. Nichols doing as you read your notes out
loud?
A. Mr. Nichols was paying close attention as I was reading my
notes and stopped me and added things for information that he
had previously omitted during the interview.
Q. At any point in the review of your notes to that point in
the interview, did he tell you you had written something down
wrong as to what he had said?
A. No. He said that I had -- everything I had written down
was correct. He had just made additional comments to things
that he had omitted, but anything that I had written down was
accurate and he had -- he said there was nothing in there that
was not accurate.
Q. One event that had taken place with just yourself and Agent
Foley was the Miranda warnings; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you go over that again with Mr. Nichols and the two new
agents?
A. Yes, we did. And Agent Jablonski reiterated with Terry
Nichols that he wanted to make sure that Terry Nichols
understood his rights; that he was free to go; and that he did
not have to speak with us at that time.
Q. Approximately what time was it, then, that you had finished
the review of the notes to that point in time in the interview?
A. Approximately 3:45.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. And what time was it that you completed the review of the
notes?
A. I'm sorry, sir. Agents Foley and Jablonski came in at
4:12. So we completed the review of the notes at approximately
4:25 p.m.
Q. How long did the four agents remain in the room with
Mr. Nichols?
A. The four agents were in the room until approximately
4:53 p.m. So for another half an hour approximately.
Q. Could you describe to the jury what happened during the
time that there were four FBI agents present?
A. We reviewed the notes, as I mentioned; and then we did
discussion about getting some consent searches for Terry
Nichols's house and his truck.
Q. And who initiated that subject, if you recall?
A. That subject was initiated by Dan Jablonski, an agent who
came in at 4:12 in the afternoon. Agent Jablonski brought in
the form with him, the consent search form, and initiated the
conversation with Terry Nichols.
Agent Jablonski mentioned to Terry Nichols that we
would like to get consent searches for his house and his truck;
and when he was mentioning this to Terry Nichols, he passed me
the form to fill out. And I filled out an address and dated
the form and handed it back to Agent Jablonski.
Agent Jablonski then read the form out loud to Terry
Stephen Smith - Direct
Nichols, placing it in front of Terry Nichols so he could
review it. Agent Jablonski then passed the form to Terry
Nichols for his review, and Terry Nichols read it at that time
and expressed a willingness to consent to searches of his house
and his truck.
Q. And did he represent that consent by signature on the form?
A. Yes. Terry Nichols signed the form at approximately
4:34 p.m., acknowledging that he wanted -- that he would allow
us to have consent to search his house and his truck.
Q. Take a look now at Government Exhibit 1929.
What is that, please.
A. This is the consent-to-search form that I filled out a
portion of, Dan Jablonski filled out a portion of, and was
signed by Terry Nichols in our presence.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Exhibit
1929.
MR. WOODS: May I take the witness on a short voir
dire, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Agent Smith, my name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers
that was appointed to represent Terry Nichols.
You and I have never met, have we?
A. No, sir.
Stephen Smith - Voir Dire
Q. When you gave the consent form to Terry Nichols to sign
concerning the search of his car and house, he asked you,
didn't he, if he or his wife could be present at that search?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you told him yes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You didn't allow him to be present, did you?
A. No, sir.
MR. WOODS: I object to the admission of the consent
form, your Honor.
THE COURT: What's the purpose of the offer?
MR. MACKEY: To document an event during the course of
the interview.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
MR. MACKEY: All right.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. After the consent form was reviewed and executed by
Mr. Nichols, Agent Smith, did the subject matter of the actual
entry into the home come up?
A. Yes. We asked Terry Nichols if there would be any bomb-
making or bomb-building materials in his house, and he said no.
Terry Nichols advised that he wanted to make sure that the
searching agents who were conducting the search could tell the
difference between cleaning solvents and bomb-building
Stephen Smith - Direct
materials.
Q. Now, in the course of the interview with Mr. Nichols that
followed, after that statement, did he repeat that statement?
A. Yes. A couple hours later, the issue of the consent search
came up again; and Terry Nichols advised that he wanted -- he
reiterated that he wanted to make sure that the searching
agents could tell the difference between innocent items and
bomb-building materials.
The issue came up again after our last break, when we
asked Terry Nichols about any storage lockers under his
control, and he mentioned a storage locker in Council Grove,
Kansas, where he had placed his belongings from approximately
October of 1994 until March of 1995. He then said that there
was nothing in his car or truck that could even be construed as
a bomb-building material.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols at any point describe or define "household
cleaning solvents"?
A. No, sir.
Q. Just used that term?
A. That's a term he used.
Q. On that afternoon, were you aware of in fact what was
inside the Nichols residence on South 2nd Street?
A. No, sir.
Q. At what point did Agents Foley and Jablonski leave the
interview?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. They left the interview at approximately 4:53 p.m.
Q. And after that point, was it just yourself, then, and Agent
Crabtree?
A. Yes, it was Agent Crabtree and myself throughout the rest
of the interview, from approximately 4:53 p.m. until
approximately 12:11 a.m. We took three breaks in between there
totaling two hours, so Agents Crabtree and myself were with
Terry Nichols for approximately five-and-a-quarter hours that
evening.
Q. And what was the role that Agent Crabtree took on?
A. Agent Crabtree asked most of the questions during the
interview, and I kept up with my contemporaneous notes of
statements that Terry Nichols had given us.
Q. Approximately what portion of the statement by Mr. Nichols
had taken place before Agent Crabtree arrived?
A. The -- we had been questioning Terry Nichols for less than
an hour, and I had taken three pages of notes of things that
Terry Nichols had told us; so the majority of the interview was
conducted by Agent Jab -- Agent Crabtree and myself.
Q. Agent Smith, during the course of the interview with
yourself and Special Agent Crabtree and Mr. Nichols, can you
describe your demeanor and manner?
A. My demeanor is like it is today. I would just ask
questions in a very conversational tone, and I was very
professional.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. How about Agent Crabtree?
A. Agent Crabtree was the same way, he was very conversational
and professional. Neither of us were confrontational in any
manner.
Q. How about Mr. Nichols' manner and demeanor?
A. Mr. Nichols' manner and demeanor were very calm and
deliberate throughout the interview.
Q. Did he ever show any outward signs of stress?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever complain about any of the questions that were
directed to him?
A. No, sir.
Q. About the length of interview?
A. No, sir.
Q. About the manner in which questions were asked?
A. No, sir.
Q. In the course of the interview with yourself and Agent
Crabtree, did you ask Mr. Nichols for names and information of
associates of Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did the name "Fortier" come up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Describe what you learned from Mr. Nichols about the name
"Fortier."
A. Mr. Nichols gave us the last name of "Fortier" and that
Stephen Smith - Direct
this individual was a white male. Gave us no further
description of Fort -- Mr. Fortier.
Q. What information did you ask Mr. Nichols of or about that
person?
A. We asked Mr. Nichols about any information -- all the
individuals he was giving information on, we wanted to know
anything about that individual that -- their first name, their
last name, how to contact them, how either one of them knew
these individuals, where they lived.
Q. And the only information Mr. Nichols gave you was the last
name "Fortier" and the state of Arizona?
A. Yes. Not initially -- initially he did not give us where
Mr. Fortier lived. But later in the interview, he said that
Mr. McVeigh would still be in contact with Mr. Fortier and that
Mr. Fortier had lived in Arizona.
Q. Now, in the course of the interview with you and Agent
Crabtree, did you go back over the statements concerning his
trip to Oklahoma City on Easter Sunday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you tell us what additional details you learned.
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols had mentioned that he had received a call
on April 16 and that from -- from Timothy McVeigh who said that
he had experienced car problems in Oklahoma City and that he
needed to go down to Oklahoma City to pick up his TV or
Mr. McVeigh would not be able to do that.
Stephen Smith - Direct
He said that Mr. McVeigh had called and said that he
was going to visit some relatives on the East Coast and that he
would not be able to drop the TV set off, so he would have to
come down and pick him up.
Q. Now, in the interview or the portion of the interview with
you and Agent Crabtree, did he give a different date as to when
he had last seen Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. During the note recap with the four agents in the
room, he had mentioned that the last time he had seen
Mr. McVeigh was either November of 1994 or January of 1995.
Q. With Agent Crabtree, did you discuss again the specifics of
the letter that Mr. Nichols had directed to Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that the letter that he had sent to
Mr. McVeigh two months prior to the bombing, which would have
been in February of 1995 -- he said that he had requested that
McVeigh pick up a TV set from his ex-wife in Las Vegas, if he
happened to be in the area.
Q. And based on what Mr. Nichols told you, was it clear as to
what Mr. McVeigh was to do -- or Mr. McVeigh was to do with the
TV if he picked it up?
A. Yes, Mr. McVeigh was to bring the TV set to Terry Nichols.
Q. Did Terry Nichols tell you whether Tim McVeigh ever
responded to that letter?
A. Mr. Nichols told us that Mr. McVeigh did not respond to
that letter either by return letter, in phone, or in person
Stephen Smith - Direct
because the first contact that he had since that letter was the
phone call on Easter Sunday that he was not expecting. He said
that there was no contact at all between himself and
Mr. McVeigh between the date of the letter in February of 1995
and the phone call that he received on April 16, 1995.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, when had he last been in Las
Vegas?
A. Mr. Nichols had last been in Las Vegas in January of 1995,
when he flew back from the Philippines.
Q. And again according to Mr. Nichols, had he seen his ex-wife
at that time?
A. Yes, he had seen his ex-wife, Lana Padilla, at that time
and had given her money for their son.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols offer any explanation as to why he didn't
pick up the TV and transport it back to Kansas with him at that
time?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you where he was living at the time he
wrote the letter to Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes. I understood from what Mr. Nichols told us that he
was living at the Sunset Motel in Junction City, Kansas.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you why he thought Mr. McVeigh might
be willing to bring a TV set from Las Vegas to Junction City,
Kansas?
A. No, he did not.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you whether he expected Mr. McVeigh,
when he wrote the letter, to be making that trip?
A. He did not expect Mr. McVeigh to be making that trip.
Q. Let's return our attention to the Easter Sunday phone call,
if I can, Agent Smith. What, if any, new information did you
learn from Mr. Nichols at that point in time with Mr. Crabtree
present?
A. In regards to the April 16 phone call, we had also learned
that Mr. McVeigh had told Terry Nichols that he needed to come
down to Oklahoma City to pick up the TV.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols place the time of that phone call?
A. Yes. He said that the phone call was approximately
3:00 p.m. in the afternoon on Easter Sunday.
Q. And did he mention anything that was going on at the time
of the phone call?
A. He said that he and his wife and son and his daughter were
just finishing up Easter Sunday dinner when he received the
phone call.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, how long had he been living in
the residence at the time of the Easter Sunday phone call?
A. He had been living in the residence since approximately
March of 1995, so month or a little over a month.
Q. Did he tell you how long he'd had phone service?
A. He did not.
Q. Did he tell you how Mr. McVeigh had his phone number?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. No, he did not tell us how.
Q. Did he tell you who picked up the phone when it rang?
A. Not specifically. Because he told us that the only person
that talked to Mr. McVeigh was himself.
Q. Did he tell you whether any other person present overheard
any portion of the conversation?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Nichols or did he otherwise tell you where
it was that Mr. McVeigh was calling from?
A. He said that he assumed that Mr. McVeigh was calling from
Oklahoma City.
Q. Let me show you what's been previously admitted into
evidence as Exhibit 1888.
And show you phone activity on April 16, 1995.
Do you have that in front of you, Agent Smith?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And according to that exhibit, was there a phone call to
the Nichols residence on Easter Sunday, April 16, in the
afternoon?
A. Yes, sir, there is a call at approximately 3:08 p.m.
Q. And according to that record, where was that call placed
from?
A. The Amoco pay phone, Tim's Amoco in Herington, Kansas.
Q. When you were interviewing Mr. Nichols on Friday afternoon,
April 21, did you have the information that's reflected in this
Stephen Smith - Direct
exhibit?
A. No, sir.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, how long would you like for
me to continue?
THE COURT: Anytime that's a good --
MR. MACKEY: This is a good break.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down, Agent
Smith. We'll take our afternoon recess.
Members of the jury, we will recess at this time for
our usual --
If you'll step down, please.
-- our usual 20-minute break period during which, of
course, please follow the cautions given at all earlier
recesses: Avoiding discussion of the case, keeping open minds
until you hear it all.
So you're excused. 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 2:58 p.m.)
THE COURT: Okay. We'll be in recess.
(Recess at 2:59 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:20 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 3:20 p.m.)
THE COURT: If you'll resume the stand, please.
Mr. Mackey, you may continue.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, Judge.
Stephen Smith - Direct
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Smith, let's go back to the Easter Sunday phone call.
What, if any, directions did Mr. McVeigh give to Mr. Nichols in
that phone call?
A. Mr. McVeigh told Terry Nichols to drive down to the
downtown area of Oklahoma City, giving him specific directions
that he should possibly come down 8th Street.
Q. And what was he to do once he got to downtown Oklahoma
City?
A. According to Terry Nichols, he was supposed to drive around
the downtown area of Oklahoma City and Tim McVeigh would find
Terry Nichols.
Q. In this same Easter Sunday phone call, according to
Mr. Nichols' statement, what, if anything, did Mr. McVeigh say
about what he was to say to his wife?
A. Mr. Nichols told us that Mr. McVeigh told him that he
should tell his wife Omaha, if she asked, and that he was
supposed to keep the conversation between them between
themselves.
Q. In the conversation on Easter Sunday, did Mr. McVeigh,
according to Mr. Nichols, describe the extent of the car
problems he had experienced?
A. He -- not specifically. He did not explain the car
problems to him other than the fact that Mr. Nichols felt that
apparently that Mr. McVeigh was leaving that car in Oklahoma
Stephen Smith - Direct
City and that he would be driving Mr. McVeigh back to Kansas.
Q. Now, according to Mr. Nichols, did the two men talk about
any other option by which Mr. Nichols could retrieve his TV set
without making a trip to and from Oklahoma City?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you why it was that Mr. McVeigh was
coming to central Kansas, if he wanted to go to New York?
A. No, he did not tell us why.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh give any more specifics as to the
directions that Mr. Nichols was to follow in finding him in
downtown Oklahoma City?
A. Other than telling him to get down to the downtown area,
drive around the block a couple times and McVeigh would find
Mr. Nichols.
Q. According to his statement to you, did he need to make any
notes or written record of the directions that he was to
follow?
A. No, he did not tell us that he had made any.
Q. Was there any landmark agreed to as to where it was they
were to meet?
A. No. They gave -- according to Terry Nichols, Mr. McVeigh
gave Terry Nichols no specific location as to where they should
meet.
Q. Now, did Mr. Nichols offer any explanation as to why he'd
be willing to drive to Oklahoma City and simply find
Stephen Smith - Direct
Mr. McVeigh on Easter Sunday evening?
A. No.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, did they at least set a specific
time that the two men were to meet?
A. No, they did not set a specific time as to when they would
meet, either.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, did they at least discuss what
time he would be leaving the house?
A. No, they did not discuss that, either.
Q. Did Terry Nichols tell you whether he had ever been to
Oklahoma City prior to Easter Sunday, 1995?
A. No, he did not admit that he had ever been down in Oklahoma
City prior to Easter Sunday of 1995.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols give you any reason as to how it was he
knew the time of travel from his home to Oklahoma City?
A. Yes. He said he determined that it would take five hours
to get from central Kansas down to Oklahoma City.
Q. Did he give you a basis for how he knew that?
A. No, he did not.
Q. You mentioned earlier that in the conversation, Mr. McVeigh
had suggested to Mr. Nichols that he tell his wife he was going
to Omaha. Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir. That's correct.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols, according to his statement to you, do what
Mr. McVeigh suggested?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols told us that he lied to his family and
his wife and told them that he was going to Omaha to pick up
Tim McVeigh.
Q. And did he give you a reason for making that statement to
his family?
A. No, other than he said that he did it because Terry --
because Tim McVeigh asked him to do that.
Q. Did he give you any reason as to why he didn't simply lie
to McVeigh as opposed to his family?
A. No, he did not.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, did he ever later -- that is,
after Easter Sunday -- ever tell his wife the truth?
A. Yes. Terry Nichols told us that he told his wife that he
was actually going to Oklahoma -- that he had actually gone to
Oklahoma City instead of Omaha when they were going to the
police department on the day of April 21, so he told us that he
told the wife the truth five days afterwards, what he told her
on the day of April 21, 1995.
Q. That was in the course of the drive that you witnessed as
he left his home, went to Surplus City, and then back to the
police station?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols ever tell you why it was necessary to
conceal the true city of destination?
A. No, he did not. And he did not say that that information
Stephen Smith - Direct
came up during the trip from Oklahoma City to Junction City.
Q. And by that, what do you mean?
A. That Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh did not discuss
why -- why Tim McVeigh -- why Terry Nichols was supposed to
tell his wife that he was going to Omaha instead of Oklahoma
City.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols offer any explanation as to why Omaha, as
opposed to any other city, was the one that he was to tell his
wife?
A. No. He did not give any -- give any reason why, but he was
never doubtful that Omaha was the city that he was supposed to
mention to his wife.
Q. Did he tell you how long he was gone on Easter Sunday?
A. He said he left shortly after 3 p.m. on Easter Sunday and
arrived back home in Herington at approximately 2 a.m. the next
morning; so he was gone approximately 11 hours.
Q. And according to Mr. Nichols, when in relationship to the
phone call did he first leave his residence?
A. He said he left his residence approximately 10 minutes
after receiving the phone call.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, did he drive down alone, or with
anyone else?
A. He drove down alone.
Q. Did he tell you whether his son had asked to join him on
that trip?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. No, he did not say that.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Nichols to trace the route of travel from
Herington down to Oklahoma City?
A. Yes. He said that he had gone on Highway 77 south from
Herington and he got down to the border of Oklahoma, where he
entered I-35 into the downtown area of Oklahoma City.
Q. And is that, according to your experience, the fastest way
to make that route?
A. From Herington, the best route, the quickest route would be
77 south to the Kansas Turnpike at El Dorado and then getting
on I-35 down to Oklahoma City.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols give you any reason as to why he had not
taken the turnpike?
A. No, he did not.
Q. If you stay on Highway 77 in Kansas, do you recall the name
of the last city before you enter into Oklahoma?
A. Yes. It's Arkansas City.
Q. In the statement on Friday, April 21, did Mr. Nichols
describe to you what happened once he got downtown Oklahoma
City on Easter Sunday?
A. Yes. He advised that he got down to the heart of downtown
Oklahoma City, possibly by taking the 8th Street exit. While
he was driving around waiting for McVeigh, he went past the
Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, which he described as "that
building." While driving around waiting for McVeigh, he also
Stephen Smith - Direct
went by a parking lot that was empty. Terry Nichols advised
that he had driven around the downtown area for approximately
30 minutes before spotting Mr. McVeigh in an alley.
Mr. Nichols stated that he went in the direction that
he spotted Mr. McVeigh in and picked Mr. McVeigh up and that
Mr. McVeigh was standing in a light rain with Terry Nichols' TV
set and a green laundry bag -- McVeigh had a green laundry bag
with him at that time, also.
Terry Nichols did not see -- see the vehicle that Tim
McVeigh had in the downtown area of Oklahoma City.
Q. Do you know from visiting Oklahoma City what the exits are
closest to the Murrah Building, the downtown exits?
A. Yes. The two downtown exits closest to the Murrah Building
are 6th Street and 10th Street.
Q. You told us that according to Mr. Nichols' account that
once arriving in Oklahoma City, he drove around waiting for
Mr. McVeigh.
A. That's correct.
Q. Did he use that term "waiting," as opposed to "searching"
for him?
A. That's correct. And as it turned out, Mr. Nichols spotted
Mr. McVeigh and went and picked Mr. McVeigh up and not the
other way around.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you if he knew what Mr. McVeigh was
doing while he was waiting for him?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. No, he did not.
Q. You told the jury that Mr. Nichols said he had driven by
"that building," the Murrah Building. Did he explain to you
how he came to use that description?
A. Yes. He said that he had driven past "that building" a
couple of times, and it was obvious in the context of the
interview that it was the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
Q. Did he tell you why he remembered that building in
particular?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he tell you whether he had ever been downtown in
Oklahoma City on 5th Street past the Murrah Building prior to
Easter Sunday?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he give you any basis for explaining why he even
recognized the building in order for him to describe it to you?
A. No, he gave no basis.
Q. While in downtown Oklahoma City, according to Mr. Nichols
and your testimony to this jury, he spotted Mr. McVeigh. Is
that correct?
A. That's correct. He spotted Mr. McVeigh in an alley -- as
Terry Nichols was driving east, he spotted Mr. McVeigh in an
alley, drove to the next block and turned north and then back
west and picked up Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Did he tell you in which direction he was driving when he
Stephen Smith - Direct
spotted Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. He said he was driving in an easterly direction and
spotted Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Do you know what direction 5th Street runs as it passes the
Murrah Building?
A. 5th Street is a one-way street running east in front of the
Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.
Q. Based on the statements to you, what was your understanding
as to the direction that the alley ran?
A. My understanding of the direction of the alley was that it
was a north/south-running alley and that it intersected the
street that Mr. Nichols was driving on.
Q. Do you know what alley is closest to the Murrah Building
that runs in a north/south direction?
A. There is an alley that's closest to the Murrah Building
running in a north/south direction which is just east of the
YMCA building, and it intersects 5th Street, also.
Q. And again, according to Mr. Nichols' statement, what was
Tim McVeigh doing when he spotted him?
A. Tim McVeigh was just standing in a light rain with Terry
Nichols' TV set and Tim McVeigh's green laundry bag.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Nichols if he saw the car that Mr. McVeigh
told him had broken down?
A. Yes. We asked him if he had seen the car that Mr. McVeigh
said had broken down, and Terry Nichols advised that he had not
Stephen Smith - Direct
seen the car but that he understood that it was being left in
Oklahoma City.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, how much time had passed since
the phone call at his residence and spotting Mr. McVeigh in
downtown Oklahoma City?
A. He said that the phone call was approximately 3:00 and that
he left approximately 10 minutes later and that it was a 5-hour
drive. So that would make it approximately 8:10; and then he
drove down around the downtown area of Oklahoma City for
approximately 30 minutes, so it would be anywhere from
approximately 8:30 p.m. to approximately 9 p.m.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols mention whether it was light still outside
at the time that he spotted McVeigh?
A. Mr. Nichols did not say, but it was dark or it was getting
dark at that point.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, what did Tim McVeigh do with the
television set and laundry bag when he stopped to pick him up?
A. He put both of those items in the cab of Terry Nichols'
pickup truck.
Q. That is, up front with the driver and the passenger?
A. Right. The driver, the passenger and TV set and a laundry
bag were in the front passenger compartment.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Nichols what Tim McVeigh was doing with the
car that had broken down in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes. Terry Nichols said that he did not know, he had not
Stephen Smith - Direct
seen the car in Oklahoma City, did not know what Timothy
McVeigh was doing with the vehicle. All he knew is that he was
picking up his TV set and helping out a friend at the same
time.
Q. Are you positive that Mr. Nichols told you he never saw Tim
McVeigh's car in downtown Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, I'm positive.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols say there were any other cars whatsoever
around or near Mr. McVeigh when he picked him up?
A. He did not say if there were any cars near the place that
he picked up Mr. McVeigh.
Q. You told the jury he expressed to you that he had a feeling
that the car was going to be left in Oklahoma City. Is that
right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did he explain what gave him that feeling?
A. No, he did not.
Q. What did Mr. Nichols tell you about Tim McVeigh's plans for
the car that he was leaving behind in Oklahoma City?
A. He did not know what Tim McVeigh's plans for the car that
he was leaving behind, other than it was being left behind.
Q. Did he give any description of the vehicle that was being
left behind in Oklahoma City?
A. Mr. Nichols said that the way that Timothy McVeigh talked,
he thought that it was a larger model and that he was leaving
Stephen Smith - Direct
it in Oklahoma City.
Q. Did he tell you why he thought or would describe to you
that it was a larger-model car?
A. He did not explain that.
Q. At the time of the interview, were you personally aware of
the vehicle that Tim McVeigh was arrested -- or in on April 19,
1995?
A. No, I was not.
Q. In the course of the interview, did you learn any more from
Mr. Nichols about Tim McVeigh's history with vehicles?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that Terry -- that Tim McVeigh had
purchased two or three vehicles since November of 1994 when he
had last seen him and that one of those vehicles was a car that
he had purchased from Terry Nichols' brother James Nichols.
Q. And did Mr. Nichols tell you anything about how much money
Tim McVeigh had put into any of those vehicles?
A. Terry Nichols said that Tim McVeigh had paid 4- or $500 for
the vehicle from James Nichols and that he had also used that
same amount of money for repairs to that vehicle.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols explain how he knew that information about
the vehicles and the cost, given the amount of contact as he
reported to you between himself and Mr. McVeigh?
A. No, he did not.
Q. According to your statement, Agent Smith, Terry Nichols
told you he went to Oklahoma City on Easter Sunday to get his
Stephen Smith - Direct
TV. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that Mr. McVeigh was en route back East to see
relatives?
A. Yes. He said that he was pressed for time to see relatives
back on the East Coast and another individual in the Midwest.
Q. And that after picking Mr. McVeigh up, they went back to
Kansas. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you why it was that Mr. McVeigh would
go to Kansas in order to go to New York?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you or mention to you at any point in
time that he had any reason to believe that he had been
observed by anyone while driving downtown Oklahoma City on
Easter Sunday?
A. No, he gave no reason.
Q. What did he tell you about the sources of information he
had relied upon to learn about the bombing?
A. Terry Nichols had advised that he had listened to the news
accounts of the bombing after April 20, 1995.
Q. And from what form or what format did he learn that?
A. Terry Nichols advised that he had received a cable
programming on that day, on the 21st of April -- 21st of April,
1995, and he received it at approximately 9 a.m. that morning
Stephen Smith - Direct
and had watched the coverage of the bombing.
Q. In the course of the interview with you and Agent Crabtree,
did the two of you talk in further detail with Mr. Nichols
about the trip back from Oklahoma City to Junction City?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And did you learn more information than you had learned
first with Agent Foley?
A. Yes, we did. We learned that -- that they had come back
from Oklahoma City to Junction City and that Terry Nichols had
advised that Tim McVeigh said a few things on the trip back to
Junction City.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols describe the route he and Mr. McVeigh took
on the way back to Junction City?
A. Yes. He said they took 35 to 77 in Kansas and then drove
back to the Junction City area.
Q. And again, what time was it that he told you he arrived in
Junction City?
A. He arrived in Junction City -- he told us that he arrived
in Junction City at approximately 1:30 a.m. on the next day, on
April 17, 1995.
Q. Did he give you additional details about where it was he
dropped Mr. McVeigh off and what happened when he did so?
A. Yes. He said that he dropped Mr. McVeigh off at a closed
McDonald's at -- on Washington Street in Junction City, Kansas,
and that Mr. McVeigh had said that he would call a friend; and
Stephen Smith - Direct
Terry Nichols said as he left, Timothy McVeigh was walking
towards a Denny's that was open up the street.
Q. And then after dropping Mr. McVeigh off, where did he go?
A. Terry Nichols went back home and arrived home at Herington
at approximately 2 a.m. on Monday morning.
Q. According to his statement to you, what route did he take
from Herington to Junction City early that morning?
A. He had taken a route north on Highway 77 to I-70, getting
on I-70 and heading east on I-70 to Junction City and exiting
on South Washington Street.
Q. Agent Smith, let me show you Government's Exhibit 1999, if
you would find that in the folder.
Do you find that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And does it show the relative distances between Oklahoma
City, Herington, and Junction City?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit
Government's Exhibit 1999.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. May be displayed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Smith, referring to this exhibit, tell the jury what
the distance is according to this map between Oklahoma City and
Junction City?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. It's 282 miles between Oklahoma City and Junction City.
Q. And according to this map, what's the approximate distance
between Herington and Junction City?
A. Approximately 25 miles.
Q. Mr. Nichols told you that on Easter Sunday evening he drove
up Route 77; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he tell you why he drove 25 miles north to Junction
City, turned around in coming home as opposed to stopping in
Herington?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he tell you of any other occasions that Mr. McVeigh had
stayed with him?
A. Yes. He had -- he told us that Mr. McVeigh had stayed with
him for a month -- anywhere from two to six weeks at a farm in
Decker, Michigan, at 3616 North Van Dyke.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols ever tell you that he and Mr. McVeigh had
shared a motel room in Junction City earlier that same year of
'95?
A. No, he did not tell us that they had stayed in a hotel room
in early 1995, and he told us that the only contact that he had
with Mr. McVeigh was a letter that he had written him in
approximately February of 1995.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols give you any explanation as to where he
understood Mr. McVeigh was going when he dropped him off early
Stephen Smith - Direct
that morning and as he saw him walking toward the Denny's?
A. He said that Mr. McVeigh had told him that he was going to
call a friend and that he could possibly borrow a car from
someone in order to get back to the East Coast to visit his
relatives.
Q. Did you and Agent Crabtree question Mr. Nichols further
about discussion of Waco during the drive from Oklahoma City to
Junction City that night?
A. Yes. We asked -- we asked Mr. Nichols if he and
Mr. McVeigh had talked about Waco during that drive, and
Mr. Nichols said that he -- that it's possible that Mr. McVeigh
had mentioned Waco but that he could not recall any specifics.
Q. Did he go on to mention any publication?
A. He also mentioned -- Terry Nichols mentioned that he and
Mr. McVeigh had discussed articles in The Spotlight newsletter
during that --
Q. Excuse me?
A. During that drive. Excuse me.
Q. And was this information that you were learning for the
first time with you and Agent Crabtree present?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he tell you as to where it was that he had come to
see these articles in The Spotlight?
A. Mr. Nichols said that he had seen the articles in The
Spotlight when he was at gun shows and those newsletters would
Stephen Smith - Direct
come across his table at the gun shows.
Q. Did he describe the articles that he saw in The Spotlight,
the publication itself?
A. Yes. He described -- Terry Nichols described the articles
as being eye-opening to the alternative view, as opposed to
what is presented in the mass media.
Q. And in the interview, did he say whether he in fact
endorsed or adopted any alternative theories?
A. He said he believed in the views expressed in The Spotlight
newsletter; and he also said that he did not use his Social
Security number, he did not believe or pay federal income
taxes, and also that he did not -- excuse me -- he did not use
his Social Security number.
Q. In the conversation with Mr. Nichols about the drive back
to Junction City, did you ask him whether in hindsight anything
had been said by Mr. McVeigh that would suggest Mr. McVeigh's
involvement in the bombing?
A. Yes. We asked Mr. Nichols if in hindsight Mr. McVeigh had
said anything to Terry Nichols during that drive that would
make Terry Nichols think that Timothy McVeigh had committed the
bombing.
Terry Nichols said yes in response to that question.
Terry Nichols then stated that Mr. McVeigh said that Terry
Nichols would see something big in the future.
At this point, Terry Nichols said that he was talking
Stephen Smith - Direct
about his business and what he was doing in regards to selling
things at Army surplus -- at gun shows and selling Army
surplus. At this point Mr. McVeigh said that "you will see
something big in the future" and that Terry Nichols then
responded that "what are you going to do; rob a bank?"
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh's response, according to Terry
Nichols, when he said, "What are you going to do; rob a bank?"
A. His response -- Mr. McVeigh's response according to
Mr. Nichols was that "no, but I've got something in the works."
Q. Did Mr. Nichols explain to you why he first questioned
Mr. McVeigh about robbing a bank in response to "something
big"? Why did he come up with that?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols describe the end of that conversation where
the two men were talking about something big happening?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that they got distracted and did not
talk about what the meaning of "something big in the future"
was, and the next thing that Terry Nichols said that both he
and Timothy McVeigh talked about was the Waco tragedy and the
anniversary of Waco; that there was possibly going to be a
gathering in Washington, D.C., that week in regards to Waco.
Q. Was there any reference to the date of the anniversary of
Waco?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that he had told Mr. McVeigh that
the anniversary was one or two years ago and Mr. McVeigh
Stephen Smith - Direct
responded that yes, it was two years ago.
Q. In the course of the discussion with Mr. Nichols about the
drive back to Junction City, did Mr. Nichols use the term
"sleepy tired"?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols described conversations that he had just
had with Mr. McVeigh and said that Mr. McVeigh would ask
questions about those conversations and that Mr. Nichols would
not remember what they had just talked about; and he described
that when he drives sometimes, he gets sleepy tired and forgets
things.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols describe Mr. McVeigh's manner or mood or
demeanor during drive back to Junction City?
A. He described Mr. McVeigh's demeanor as being hyper or
nervous during the drive back from Oklahoma City to Junction
City.
Q. Now, according to his statement to you, did he expect to
hear from or see Mr. McVeigh again once he dropped him off at
the McDonald's?
A. He did not know when he dropped him off at the
McDonald's -- they both said to each other that they would
catch each other on the way back, so he was not sure when he
would be in contact with Mr. McVeigh again.
Q. Did you ask him whether in fact he had heard or saw
Mr. McVeigh after he dropped him off?
A. Yes. We asked him the next contact if he had seen
Stephen Smith - Direct
Mr. McVeigh again.
Q. What did you learn?
A. We learned that he had received a phone call at
approximately 6 a.m. Terry Nichols told us he received a phone
call at approximately 6 a.m. on April 18, Tuesday, from Tim
McVeigh, and Tim McVeigh asked Terry Nichols if he could borrow
Terry Nichols' pickup truck because he needed to pick up a few
things and look at a couple vehicles.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you whether he had had any contact of
any nature with Mr. McVeigh between the time he dropped him off
at the McDonald's, late Easter Sunday night, and 6 a.m. on
Tuesday, April 18?
A. He said he had -- he had had no contact with him during
that time.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you what he had done the previous
evening; that is, Monday, April 17, 1995?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he tell you anything about his son visiting from Las
Vegas?
A. He said that his son had visited for a week over Easter.
Q. Did he tell you anything about taking his son to the Kansas
City airport on Monday, April 17?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Anything he said about phone calls from the Kansas City
airport on that day?
Stephen Smith - Direct
A. No, he did not.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, was he up at 6 a.m. on Tuesday,
April 18?
A. Yes. He said that he was already up when he received the
call from Mr. McVeigh.
Q. And what did he say he was doing at that time?
A. He said he was up and that he was not doing much at that
time but that he had just gotten up.
Q. What did Mr. Nichols tell you about the content of that
phone call with Mr. McVeigh on Tuesday, April 18?
A. According to Terry Nichols, Timothy McVeigh called at
6 a.m. and asked him if he could borrow his pickup truck for a
little while in order to look at a couple vehicles and pick up
a few items.
Terry Nichols told Mr. McVeigh that there was a
sealed-bid auction at Fort Riley on Monday, Tuesday and
Wednesday, which would have been the 16th -- I mean the 17th,
18th and 19th of April, and that he was planning on going to
that auction that day and that if Mr. McVeigh wasn't going to
take too long, he could borrow the vehicle while Terry Nichols
was at the auction.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you where Tim McVeigh was calling
from?
A. He did not tell us where Timothy McVeigh was calling from,
but he said that he did not know where Mr. McVeigh was staying.
Stephen Smith - Direct
Q. What other information, if any, did you learn from
Mr. Nichols about the auction itself, when and where it would
be conducted?
A. Mr. Nichols said that it was a sealed-bid auction that was
going to be conducted at Fort Riley, Kansas, and that it was
going to be on those three days, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday,
and that he was going there that day.
Q. Did he tell you whether it would require his presence at a
specific place and time in order to participate in the
sealed-bid auction?
A. No, sir.
Q. In the conversation with Mr. Nichols, did he say anything
about Tim McVeigh selling surplus military equipment?
A. Yes. He said that Mr. McVeigh also sold military surplus
with him at gun shows.
Q. And did he mention whether he had invited Tim McVeigh to
join him at this sealed-bid auction?
A. No, he did not.
Q. In the course of the conversation, according to
Mr. Nichols, did the two men make plans to in fact meet and
relay the truck?
A. Yes. They made plans to meet at approximately 7:30 at the
McDonald's in Junction City that Terry Nichols had dropped
Timothy McVeigh off the previous morning.
Q. The same McDonald's?
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A. The same McDonald's, yes.
Q. Do you know how many McDonald's there are in Junction City?
A. There are three.
Q. And did Mr. Nichols tell you why it was they picked that
spot in order to meet again on Tuesday morning, April 18?
A. No, he did not.
Q. According to his statement to you, did, in fact,
Mr. Nichols and Mr. McVeigh get together at that McDonald's?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that Terry -- that Timothy McVeigh
had told him that he was not in a big hurry, so they waited
around; so Terry Nichols waited at home for approximately an
hour and decided to meet Mr. McVeigh at the McDonald's at
approximately 7:30 a.m. on that date.
Q. Agent Smith, if you drive from Herington to Junction City,
will you pass Geary Lake?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And approximately where in the distance -- that is; in
between those two cities -- does Geary Lake rest?
A. Approximately halfway.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you where exactly at the McDonald's
the two men were to meet that morning?
A. No, he did not.
Q. According to his statement to you, did he find Mr. McVeigh
at the McDonald's?
A. Yes. He picked him up at approximately 7:30 in the morning
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at the McDonald's.
Q. Was he with anyone?
A. No, he was not.
Q. What did the two men do after they met at the McDonald's
according to Mr. Nichols?
A. According to Mr. Nichols, he picked up Timothy McVeigh and
they got back on I-70 heading east and got off at K-18, which
is a highway; and they went through Ogden, Kansas, and went up
to the post at Fort Riley, going that direction.
Q. If you take that route starting at McDonald's and following
it the way you've described it, how long does that trip take?
A. Approximately 20 minutes.
Q. Approximately what time, then, would Mr. Nichols have
arrived at DRMO on that morning?
A. A little bit before 8 a.m.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you whether he had ever been to an
auction at that same facility prior to April 18?
A. No, he had not.
Q. Tell us what Mr. Nichols told you he did once he was
dropped off by Mr. McVeigh at the DRMO.
A. Mr. Nichols got out of the -- got out of his pickup truck
and looked at items for sale in a building and was -- they
decided to meet up -- to have Timothy McVeigh come back at
approximately noon that same day. When Timothy McVeigh did not
show up at noon, Terry Nichols went into another building where
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he had to sign in in order to look at items inside that
building, also.
Q. Did he tell you what he did once he signed into this
building?
A. Yes. He signed into this building and then looked at the
items that were for sale inside and bid on some of those items
and came outside after approximately an hour of looking at
those items, and Mr. McVeigh showed up shortly after that.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols' statement, when, exactly, was Tim
McVeigh to pick him up?
A. He was supposed to pick him up at 12 noon.
Q. And at noon or thereabouts, what did Mr. Nichols do?
A. Mr. Nichols went outside and Mr. McVeigh was not there, so
he went into another building at the DRMO.
Q. Did he tell you how long he waited before going inside the
building where he signed in?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he specify how long he was inside the building before
he eventually was picked up?
A. He said approximately an hour.
Q. Did he specify a time for you when it was that Mr. McVeigh
picked him up?
A. No, he did not, but it would be -- he said that it was
sometime after 1:00, but he did not say specifically when.
Q. According to his statement to you, when he linked back up
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with Mr. McVeigh, where did the two men go?
A. The two men -- Mr. Nichols drove Mr. McVeigh back to the
Junction City area and dropped him off at the same McDonald's
on South Washington Street.
Q. Did he tell you that he went immediately from the DRMO or
Fort Riley back to the same McDonald's?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did he tell you why the same McDonald's again?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you what he did once he dropped Tim
McVeigh off?
A. Yes. He said that he dropped Tim McVeigh off at the
McDonald's in Junction City and that he, Terry Nichols, went
back to the Manhattan area in order to pick up mail at a Mail
Boxes EtcÄÄ where he had a mailbox.
Q. If you were at Fort Riley and wanted to go to Manhattan,
what's the most direct route?
A. Just to continue on either I-70 or go the back route to
Manhattan. Junction City is not in between Manhattan and Fort
Riley.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols' statements, he went out of his
way to drop Tim McVeigh off at the McDonald's before tracing
his route to go back to Manhattan?
A. Right. Mr. Nichols drove from the DRMO on post at Fort
Riley back to Junction City and then basically had to go back
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through Fort Riley to get to Manhattan.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols explain why after waiting for the pickup
that he was prepared to drive out of his way to drop Tim
McVeigh off?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Again, what errands, according to Mr. Nichols, did he run
in Manhattan that afternoon?
A. He said Mr. -- Mr. Nichols said that he had picked up his
mail at the Mail Boxes EtcÄÄ and then he went back to
Herington, Kansas, and ran some more errands in Herington
before arriving at home in Herington after 5:00.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, did he and Tim McVeigh have a
conversation when they separated at the McDonald's in the
afternoon of Tuesday, April 18?
A. Yes. As they were -- as Timothy McVeigh got out of the
pickup truck, he told Terry Nichols that he had a few
belongings in his storage shed and told him that if Timothy
McVeigh did not pick them up that Terry Nichols should pick
them up for him.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols know what storage shed Tim McVeigh was
referring to?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And how did he describe that to you?
A. He told us that he had gone the next day, on April 20, to
pick up the -- Timothy McVeigh's belongings in a storage shed
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in Herington, Kansas.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, when was it that he was to go to
the storage shed and clean it out?
A. Mr. McVeigh did not tell him when; just that if he did not
do it that Mr. Nichols should do it.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols, in fact, tell you that he went there the
day after the bombing, on April 20?
A. Yes. He said he went there on April 20 and cleaned out
that storage locker.
Q. Did he detail for you exactly what he took out of the
storage locker on April 20?
A. Yes. Terry Nichols said that he took out Timothy McVeigh's
sleeping bag, a rucksack, and a rifle from the storage shed.
Q. Did he tell you that was all that he took from the storage
shed?
A. Yes. He said that that -- those were the three items that
he took and that there was nothing left in the storage shed.
Q. Did he tell you how he was able to get inside the storage
locker?
A. Yes. He said there was a combination on the storage locker
but that the combination lock was not on the storage locker
anymore.
Q. Agent Smith, in the course of the interview from 3 in the
afternoon to midnight, approximately how many times do you
think you and the other agents asked Mr. Nichols to detail all
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of the contacts that he had with Mr. Tim McVeigh during the
week prior to the bombing?
A. We asked him numerous times about any contacts that he had
with Mr. McVeigh, especially since we wanted to find out any
information that he had about contacts that he had with
Mr. McVeigh, especially in Oklahoma City prior to the bombing.
Q. And the only information he gave you was Easter Sunday,
April 16, and on April 18 at the McDonald's and Fort Riley?
A. That's correct.
Q. Agent Smith, can you tell the jury how you first learned
about the bombing.
A. Yes. I was in Riley, Kansas, which is a small town of
about 800 people, which is north of Fort Riley. I was up in
Riley, Kansas, looking into a case of theft of government
property.
At approximately 10 a.m. on that day, I went to use a
pay phone in Riley, Kansas, and the pay phone did not work. I
then went to a Sprint switching station which was nearby, in
Riley, and I asked the employee if I could use his phone.
I did not identify myself to him as an FBI agent, and
he asked me if I had heard about what had happened in Oklahoma
City.
I said I had not.
And this individual said that there had been a bombing
in Oklahoma City blowing up the federal building down there and
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that it happened approximately an hour ago.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols' statements to you, when did he
first learn of the bombing in Oklahoma City?
A. He said that he had first learned about the bombing in
Oklahoma City on the next day, on April 20, 1995.
Q. Did he tell you what he was doing or where he was on the
day of the bombing?
A. Mr. Nichols told us that he was at home all day during --
on the day of the bombing, just hanging around his house and
working at his house.
Q. Did he describe any contacts he had with businesses in
Herington during the day of the bombing or on the day of the
bombing?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols describe what he did on Friday morning --
excuse me -- Thursday morning, the 20th?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that he had gone to the cable outlet
store in Herington to secure cable service for his home and
that is where he had first heard about the bombing.
Q. Did he tell you he had not had any cable service prior to
April 20, 1995?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did he tell you why on that day he chose to request cable
service?
A. No, he did not.
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Q. Did he tell you when it was that cable service was, in
fact, installed?
A. He said that cable service was installed at 9 a.m. the next
day, April 21, 1995.
Q. When he went in to -- according to his statement -- to see
the cable people, was there any argument or discussion about
when the installation should be made?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did not mention that to you.
A. Excuse me.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you what, if anything, he did about
acquiring newspapers on April 20, 1995?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that after he had heard about the
bombing at the cable outlet store watching a newscast -- he
said that he went and purchased three different newspapers that
afternoon and read those newspapers that evening, April 20.
Q. Did he describe by title the newspapers that he purchased?
A. Yes. He said he purchased one, a paper from Wichita and
Salina, and he did not specify the third newspaper that he had
purchased.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you what, if any, information he
learned about the state of the investigation as a result of
watching cable on Friday, April 21, or reading newspapers from
April 20?
A. Yes. He said that he had heard his name -- had been
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mentioned in relation to the bombing and that Timothy McVeigh
had probably -- possibly been arrested for the bombing.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you what, if anything, he had learned
about suspected source or origin of the bomb truck?
A. No, he did not.
Q. What about the suspected origin or makeup of the bomb
itself?
A. No, he did not.
Q. In the course of your interview, did the two of you talk
about composites that had been released by the FBI concerning
the persons suspected of renting the bomb truck?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that the composites that he had seen
did not look a lot like Tim McVeigh.
Q. Which composites were being described?
A. John Doe No. 1 as not looking like Tim McVeigh.
Q. In the course of the interview, Agent Smith, did the two of
you talk about when Mr. Nichols had first heard of Tim
McVeigh's name in connection with the bombing?
A. Yes. He said he first heard of Tim McVeigh's name being
mentioned in regard to the bombing on April 21, 1995.
Q. Did he describe to you his reaction when he first heard Tim
McVeigh's name being connected with the bombing?
A. Yes. He said he was shocked to hear Tim McVeigh's name
mentioned in relation to the bombing and that he had thought
Tim McVeigh was driving back East to see his family and he was
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surprised he had been picked up not far from Oklahoma City the
day of the bombing.
Q. Did he say anything at that time about Tim McVeigh's
grandfather?
A. Yes. Mr. Nichols said that he could not see why Tim
McVeigh had -- why Tim McVeigh would do the bombing because he
was supposed to receive an inheritance from his grandfather
shortly and he could do whatever he wanted because he would
have money.
Q. In the course of the interview, Agent Smith, did
Mr. Nichols change or modify his expression to you about
suspicion of Mr. McVeigh's involvement in the bombing?
A. Yes. He said that he had suspected Mr. McVeigh's
involvement in the bombing.
Q. Did he describe to you why he suspected Tim McVeigh as
being involved in the bombing?
A. Yes. We asked in hindsight if he had -- if during the
conversation in the trip from Oklahoma City to Junction City --
if Timothy McVeigh had said anything. And he had mentioned
that he said that there was something big in the future, and
that was the crux of the issue in regards to what he suspected
Timothy McVeigh's involvement.
Q. In the course of the interview, did you or Agent Crabtree
talk about possible interviews of Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes. We mentioned to -- we mentioned to Terry Nichols that
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agents in Oklahoma would probably be going to talk to Tim
McV