The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Tuesday, November 25, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 91)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:30 p.m., on the 25th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys
at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado,
80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 1:30 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Jury in at 1:30 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please resume the stand.
(Patrick Daly was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson, you may continue.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, before the break, you were telling us about how
you and your team started your search of Grid Area 1; is that
right?
Patrick Daly - Direct
A. That's correct.
Q. You began that search on what day?
A. On Thursday, April 20th.
Q. Now, before you began the search, did you brief your team
members on what you wanted them to do?
A. Yes, I briefed them on the process of how to collect the
evidence, record it, package it. If we were going to
photograph it, I assigned a photographer to do that. If we
were going to do a sketch of the area that we were searching, I
assigned a sketch artist to sketch that area and to locate
items that we recovered on that sketch.
Q. Now, did you personally recover all items seized by your
team?
A. I did not personally recover all items seized.
Q. What was your procedure for reviewing items that were
seized by other members of your team?
A. I asked them to show me the items before we put them on the
log and recorded them as items of evidence. And I made sure
that they were given item numbers, and I initialed and -- and
dated the item.
Q. How many people were on your team on average?
A. I would say on average, around 25 people.
Q. How many days did you work together as Team 1?
A. We started that -- the first day of the evidence
collection, on April 20th, and continued until the crime scene
Patrick Daly - Direct
was finished.
Q. Do you recall when that was?
A. I think it was the 1st or 2d day of May.
Q. Now, you said there were five teams total who searched the
grid area?
A. Initially, there were about five or six. Eventually, as we
got more personnel into the Oklahoma City area, we assigned
more teams and started doing evidence collection around the
clock.
Q. Do you recall how many personnel were involved with
searching the entire crime scene?
A. Approximately 250 FBI, other federal agency personnel,
local, state and county agency personnel.
Q. Were all of them in the downtown Oklahoma City area?
A. No. There was a -- a portion of -- of approximately 80 to
85 people, law enforcement personnel assigned to an off-site
area.
Q. What was the purpose of the off-site area?
A. They received truckloads of -- of debris from the crater
area in front of the Murrah Federal Building and in the
immediate area of the federal building, and their purpose or
their job was to sift through that debris using screens to see
if they could find any components of bomb.
Q. Did you participate in that sifting site?
A. I did not.
Patrick Daly - Direct
Q. Now, let's turn to what you did at the crime scene. You
told us you were working on April 20th with your team?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you see -- seize several pieces of debris on that
day?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may I ask the witness to
step down so he can identify evidence and use the model?
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, I want to start with this exhibit, Government's
Exhibit 713. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. I recognize it by its distinctive shape; and also, I had
marked that with my initials and the date that we collected it.
Q. Do you recall when Government's Exhibit 713 was seized?
A. This was seized the first day of the -- we began the search
on Thursday, April 20th.
Q. Where was it seized?
A. It was seized on N.W. 5th, approximately in the middle of
the 400 block of N.W. 5th.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers 713, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: 713 is received.
Patrick Daly - Direct
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, before you point out on the model where you found it,
can you tell the jury what 713 is?
A. 713 appears to be a -- a gear, most probably from a truck.
Q. And do you know how heavy that gear is, Agent Daly?
A. It's very heavy. It's over 100 pounds. It took more than
just myself to lift it into the pickup truck we had.
Q. All right. Can you show us on the model here and indicate
for the jury and for the record where you found Government's
Exhibit 713, the gear.
A. Again, this street in front of the Murrah Federal Building
is N.W. 5th. And going west, I found this gear on the 400
block of N.W. 5th, approximately two and a half blocks from the
Murrah Federal Building. It was resting against a fence. It
actually knocked down a portion of a chain-link fence to the
east of Fred's Auto Body Shop.
Q. Now, right here on this model, is there a yellow dot
marking where you found Government's Exhibit 713?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And how far did you say that is from the site of the
crater?
A. It's about 600 yards or about two and a half city blocks.
Q. Show you a little smaller piece of evidence, Government's
Exhibit 720. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Patrick Daly - Direct
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. Again, I recognize it by its distinct shape. I recall that
there were what appeared to be a letter and numbers on it, and
I also initialed the exterior of the bag of this piece of
evidence.
Q. Do you recall what day you found Government's Exhibit 720?
A. This -- I found it the next day, on Friday, the 21st of
April, and it was found in an alley behind the Regency
apartment complex on the -- on the 300 block of N.W. 5th.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers 720.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received 720.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, you said -- why don't you turn and face the jury. See
if you can show them. You saw some numbering or markings on
this.
A. Yes, there was -- although the piece of metal is twisted,
there were some numbers or letters stamped into this piece of
metal that I noticed.
Q. Where did you find Government's Exhibit 720?
A. It was found in the alley at the rear of the Regency
apartment building between 5th and 6th Streets.
Q. Can you point that out here on the model, please.
A. Right here between the Regency apartments -- and there was
a garage that was severely damaged by the blast, and I found
Patrick Daly - Direct
this in the alley.
Q. And is there a yellow dot in this alley right behind the
Regency Towers indicating where you found Government's Exhibit
720?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Now, Agent Daly, I want you to look at 722. Do you
recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How do you recognize Government's Exhibit 722? Excuse me.
A. Again, by its distinct shape. It's a -- a wheel from an
automobile, or I believe it's from a truck. And its distinct
shape. And also my initials and the date that I recovered it
on April 23d is written on it.
Q. Do you recall where you found Government's Exhibit 722?
A. That was recovered adjacent to the Journal Record Building
off of Robinson Street between 5th and 6th Streets.
MS. WILKINSON: We offer or move for the admission of
722, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. TIGAR: Shall I just do it from here so we don't
disturb the --
THE COURT: Whichever is more convenient.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Patrick Daly - Voir Dire
Q. Hello, Agent. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the
lawyers helping out Terry Nichols. We've never met.
A. No, we haven't.
Q. Okay. This wheel that you found here was, of course, in
this terrible shape when you saw it; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did it have a tire on it?
A. No, it did not.
Q. Did -- were any portions of the -- were there any portions
of rubber or tire that were adhering to it at the time that you
first found it?
A. I don't recall seeing any. What I recall is what we see
here today.
Q. Right. And your protocol -- that is, the way you would do
it -- if there were any portions of a tire that adhered to
this, you would have dealt with those in a way that they would
be preserved; correct? You would have kept a record of it?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you don't recall having made a record of any tire being
a part of this?
A. No.
Q. So this is the whole thing as you found it; correct?
A. As what I recall, yes.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 722 is received.
Patrick Daly - Direct
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay. Agent Daly, can you lift this one?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Turn it on end and show it to the jury.
And can you tell us exactly where you found -- can you
hold it up just a little bit.
All right. And you said you found it in this
condition?
A. That's correct.
Q. On what date?
A. I first saw it on April 19th when I went to the crime
scene. It was laying in a sidewalk area in front of the
Journal Record Building. I didn't recover it as evidence until
Sunday, the 23d.
Q. Now, can you show the jury where you first saw it on
April 19th?
A. Here's the Journal Record Building, and here's the Murrah
Federal Building. I found it approximately a few feet off the
street --
MR. TIGAR: Can I move across, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: I found it a few feet into the sidewalk
area just west of Robinson Street between 5th and 6th.
Patrick Daly - Direct
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Was that where you recovered it?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any -- why don't you take your seat.
Were there any markings around that wheel rim when you
found it?
A. There was a circle that was -- pink circle that was painted
around the wheel rim.
Q. What was the purpose of that?
MR. TIGAR: If you know.
MS. WILKINSON: If you know.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: The first night of the -- the bombing on
the 19th, we had people from the different law enforcement
agencies there, and someone -- and I don't know who -- or a
group of people -- painted pink circles around items of -- such
as this tire rim that they felt could be significant pieces of
evidence.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, during your search of the crime-scene area, did you go
into the Regency Tower building?
A. Yes. The team and myself searched the whole building to
include the apartments within, the roof area and the
surrounding structures, the pool area on Saturday, the 22d.
Q. Did you find any metal debris inside the Regency Tower?
Patrick Daly - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you find?
A. I found in Apartment 807 what appeared to be the -- part of
a rear lock assembly off a cargo door of a truck.
Q. I'm handing you Government's 654. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How do you recognize that?
A. I recognize it by its distinctive shape; and also, I had
initialed the exterior packaging of this item.
Q. Where did you find Government's Exhibit 654?
A. Exhibit 654 was found embedded into a door frame at an
entrance doorway of Apartment 807 in the Regency apartments.
Q. So it was inside the apartment?
A. Inside the apartment of -- on the eighth floor.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's
Exhibit 654.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, when you found this item, were there pictures taken of
it, in place?
A. Yes, I had my photographer take pictures of it as it was
embedded into the doorway.
Q. And before coming to court today, did you review
Government's Exhibit 656, 657, and 658, which show Government's
Patrick Daly - Direct
Exhibit 654 in place?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer 656, 657, and
658.
MR. TIGAR: May I just take a look at those, your
Honor?
MS. WILKINSON: Sure.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received. May be displayed.
MS. WILKINSON: May I display them, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, I'm going to show you 656. Do you recognize
that?
A. May I stand?
Q. Please.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. And if you could tell the jury what they are seeing here in
Government's Exhibit 656.
A. This is a doorway in Apartment 807, and this item here is
the item I just identified as being embedded into the door
Patrick Daly - Direct
frame.
Q. When you found that item embedded, what did you do?
A. Initially, we took this photograph; and then we extracted
it from the door frame, and we took two more photographs of it.
Q. Okay. Let's look at the next one, if we could. This is
Government's Exhibit 658. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. What does that show?
A. Again, that represents or shows this piece as it was laying
on the floor, and we added a -- a ruler or scale so that we
could get a sense of the dimensions of it from the photograph.
Q. And this final photograph, Government's Exhibit 657, what
does that show? You tell me. This way?
A. This way.
Q. Okay. What are we looking at in 657?
A. This is a picture of Exhibit 654, a photograph that was
taken, again while it was embedded into the door frame. And
again, we added a ruler to determine from the photograph the
proportional size of this item.
Q. Now, let's take a look at Government's Exhibit 654. Is
there some markings or some type of damage to 654?
A. Yes. There's cratering and pitting on the metal.
Q. And can you see any of that in Government's Exhibit 657?
A. Yes. I can. Right here.
Q. You can take your seat.
Patrick Daly - Direct
Agent Daly, at some point in the crime scene, was
Agent Charles Gonzales a member of your search team?
A. Yes, I believe he was a -- he was from the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms; and I believe he joined us
either the first day or one of the first few days.
Q. And did he recover evidence that he turned in to you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And we're going to ask you no further questions right now,
but when you're called back, will you be able to tell us about
the evidence that Agent Gonzales collected and turned in to
you?
A. Yes, I can.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you. No further questions at
this time, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello again, Agent. I wanted first to show you a group --
excuse me -- of photographs that I have numbered D1661, 1662,
1663, 1664, 1665, and 1667 and ask you if they fairly and
accurately reflect the parking lot across from the Murrah
Building during the time you were conducting your
investigation.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, just to assist, I'd ask
for a date for foundational purposes for when these were.
Patrick Daly - Cross
THE COURT: Well, the question was "during the
investigation."
MR. TIGAR: During the investigation, yes.
THE COURT: I take it that means during the period of
search.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, during the time he was
there, between the 19th -- 19th of April and the 2d of May.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Counselor, I would say that it
represents the parking lot, not necessarily the first day or
few days, but as the investigation and the crime scene
processing progressed.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That is, you -- you can't tell exactly when these were
taken, but it was during the time that you were there and
walking past the parking lot; correct?
A. Well, I recall the parking lot having the devastation done
to vehicles there, evidence that the vehicles received blast
wave. The surrounding building structures, roofs torn off,
windows blown in, walls torn apart. And also the construction
vehicles were present during the processing of the crime scene,
the cranes to lift up the heavy slabs as well as construction
workers and law enforcement rescue personnel.
MR. TIGAR: We offer them, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I'd like to voir dire on
Patrick Daly - Cross
this exhibit.
THE COURT: You may.
MS. WILKINSON: Can you leave those up there,
Mr. Tigar, so he may --
MR. TIGAR: Sure.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, was it part of your responsibilities on Team 1
to actually examine the parking lot?
A. No. We didn't do any evidence collection within the
parking lot.
Q. So you cannot say whether these photographs that begin with
161 -- if you could, can you say whether that photograph fairly
and accurately depicts the damage that was done to that portion
of the parking lot?
A. No. I can't.
THE COURT: I think it's 1661.
MS. WILKINSON: I'm sorry. 1661.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Do you see that vehicle right there in the front and center
of that photograph?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you know whether that vehicle was in that position in
the parking lot at any time during the investigation?
Patrick Daly - Voir Dire
A. No, I don't.
Q. Okay. Let's turn to 16 -- I mean 1662, please. Do you see
that box there on the left-hand corner?
A. Yes.
Q. And can you say whether that box was there during the crime
scene when you were walking past the parking lot?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. Can you say that this photograph fairly and accurately
depicts the parking lot as you saw it?
A. In general, from a general -- just passing by, but not in
particular.
Q. Can you say that this is an accurate depiction of the cars
and the state of the damage of the vehicles at the time you saw
them?
A. No, I can't.
Q. Now, turn to 1 -- 1663, please. I believe this has some
buildings in the background; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. You recognize those?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, in -- in front, there is some damage to vehicles. Do
you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And there's a person looking at those vehicles?
A. Yes.
Patrick Daly - Voir Dire
Q. Can you say that those vehicles were in that position when
you walked by the parking lot during the crime-scene
investigation?
A. Those particular vehicles, I -- I can't say.
Q. And 1664. Do you have any idea when 1664 was taken, at
what time during the investigation?
A. No, I -- I do not.
Q. And do you see those boxes there in front?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether those boxes were there at the edge of
the parking lot when you walked by it?
A. No. I cannot say that they were there.
Q. Now, 1665 is an aerial photograph, is it not?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And do you know or can you say whether the parking lot was
in this position or the cars were in these positions during the
investigation?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. Are you aware that Agent Sachtleben was in charge of
investigating the parking lot?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know whether at certain times during the
investigation, he moved vehicles from the parking lot?
A. Yes, I saw -- as I was passing by, I would see vehicles
being moved out of the parking lot.
Patrick Daly - Voir Dire
Q. And do you know whether 1665 -- at what point in the
investigation 1665 was taken showing some of the vehicles in
the parking lot?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Would that also be true for 1666?
A. That's correct. I couldn't say what date this was taken.
Q. And what about 1667? Do you know whether any vehicles had
been moved from the parking lot when 1667 was taken?
A. I could not be sure.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'll object to all of
these exhibits.
THE COURT: Well, what's the purpose of the offer,
Mr. Tigar? Maybe that --
MR. TIGAR: They are pictures, your Honor -- they are
pictures of the parking lot furnished to us by the United
States of America in the discovery process. I simply wanted to
establish the devastation. Not in any particular time, but
just what -- what is there.
THE COURT: So it's for purposes of the general
appearance of it.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, the general appearance.
THE COURT: Without the details that were referred to
in voir dire.
MR. TIGAR: That's right, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, if I could just say one
Patrick Daly - Voir Dire
thing, Agent Sachtleben will be here this afternoon, and he is
the man that investigated the parking lot. We just ask that
they wait until he can --
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor --
MS. WILKINSON: -- address those photos.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I'm not an immediate
gratification person. If the agent will be here later in the
afternoon, I'll be happy to have them come in at that time.
THE COURT: All right. We'll reserve then.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Agent, you got there on the evening of the 19th; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you -- at that time, did you go directly to the
site?
A. I went to a motel, checked in, dropped my luggage, went --
then went to the temporary command post, and from the temporary
command post, went to the site.
Q. Now, you've described for us several locales here. One is
that you just talked about the temporary command post. Where
was that?
A. I don't recall the street offhand. It was about three
Patrick Daly - Cross
blocks from the site of the blast.
Q. Showing you, sir, what's been received -- or a copy of --
as Government's Exhibit 728, this is an aerial photograph of --
are you able to pick out any details from this aerial
photograph of where that command post was?
Would it assist you if we put the big one up on the
easel? I'm just trying to find out where things are.
A. I don't believe it's on this photograph. I thought it was
further to the east.
Q. Now, this photograph shows, where my finger is pointing,
the bombed-out Murrah Building; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then this is -- is this north? The upper part of the
photograph is north?
A. That would be north, sir.
Q. All right. And so east is over this way; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And your testimony is that the command post is
located off here, off the east edge; correct?
A. Yes. I -- I believe it's off this because I know it was
further than just the two blocks shown in this photograph.
Q. Now, that command post, was that the command post where the
daily briefings were held?
A. That was the initial location for daily briefings. Then we
moved the daily briefings in closer to the bombed-out YMCA.
Patrick Daly - Cross
Q. I see. Can you find on here where the other location was
for the daily briefings. This would be the Murrah Building.
Catty-corner across is the YMCA; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And directly across is that parking lot that we've been
fussing about; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And where was the -- the command post?
A. Well, we did -- the command post, again, is still off of
this photograph.
Q. I see. But just closer than the first one?
A. You asked me where we did daily briefings.
Q. Yes.
A. And we did daily briefings eventually in the YMCA, which
was catty-corner to the --
Q. I see it.
A. -- Murrah Building.
Q. Now, that first evening, were you -- were you aware that
people that you had been colleagues with on previous explosion
scenes would be present?
A. Yes.
Q. You were aware that Mr. David Williams would be with you
whose name you mentioned on direct examination?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you knew that Mr. Rick Hahn would be with you; is that
Patrick Daly - Cross
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It's another name you mentioned on direct examination?
A. Right.
Q. And what -- did you have an understanding when you arrived
as to who would be in charge of the crime scene?
A. At that time, I did not have an understanding upon my
arrival because I was not in direct communication with them.
Q. I see. When is the first time in April that you met with
Mr. Williams, Agent Williams?
A. The next morning, the 20th.
Q. And is that also true of your meeting with Mr. Hahn? The
next morning?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you meet with any supervisory FBI personnel
when you went to the site on the evening of the 19th, the FBI
supervisory personnel?
A. There were FBI supervisory personnel in the command post
from the Oklahoma City division. I don't recall their names
right now. There were also -- there was also an FBI
supervisory personnel, Wallace Higgins, whom I had worked with
in previous bombing crime scenes.
Q. Now -- and which bombing crime scenes had you worked with
Mr. Higgins?
A. At the Trade Center bombing in New York in 1993.
Patrick Daly - Cross
Q. You were assigned to the Trade Center case; is that
correct?
A. I was one of the search team leaders in the Trade Center
case, yes.
Q. And you testified that you, as a part of that experience,
helped to develop procedures for use in post-blast crime-scene
investigation?
A. I would say refined procedures that I used personally in
post-blast crime scenes.
Q. And did -- you said on direct examination, did you not, it
was helpful to you to know that Mr. Williams and Mr. Hahn would
be leading this effort; is that right?
A. I don't think I said that. I think it was helpful to
myself to know that there were other experienced agents who had
previously been at, say, the World Trade Center that were a
part of this search effort.
Q. And was it -- was Agent Williams one of the people whose
presence you regarded as helpful to you?
A. Eventually, when I knew he was there, yes.
Q. Uh-huh. And that was -- you knew he was there as of the
next morning; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, you also mentioned that you had participated in the
investigation of the bombing of the DAS building in Colombia;
is that correct?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. I observed the investigation. The investigation itself was
done by the DAS personnel.
Q. I understand. And the DAS personnel, that's the Colombian
governmental people; is that correct?
A. But equivalent to, say, the FBI.
Q. And in that observation role, did you work with Agent Hahn?
A. Agent Hahn was there and -- but he wasn't involved directly
in that investigation, as well. That was done by the DAS
personnel.
Q. In addition to the World Trade Center -- in the World Trade
Center case, did you work with Agent Hahn?
A. Approximately 15 years ago, he and I worked on the Chicago
FALN terrorist case.
Q. So that's -- you met Mr. Hartzler there?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Now -- now, could you answer my question. Did
you work with Agent Hahn on the World Trade Center case?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And did Mr. Williams work with you in the
Colombia case?
A. No, he was not there.
Q. All right. And did you work on the Avianca case?
A. Yes, I participated in that.
Q. And did you work with Agent Hahn in the Avianca case?
A. Yes.
Patrick Daly - Cross
Q. And was your experience with Agent Hahn in the Avianca case
one of the things that you thought -- that led you to believe
it would be helpful that he be there in Oklahoma City?
A. I knew he was able to organize well a major crime-scene
search.
Q. My question is, was your work together on the Avianca case
one of the things that led you to believe it would be helpful
that he would be there in the Oklahoma City case?
A. Yes. He's very organized; and again, I felt he was
beneficial.
Q. Now, you've testified about the command post and about
these briefings. In addition to that, those locations, there
was an evidence warehouse, was there not, sir?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And was that a large, open building that the FBI had
obtained for purposes of storing the evidence?
A. I'm not sure exactly when the FBI in Oklahoma City obtained
it, but it was used for our evidence.
Q. And did you meet Mr. Elliott there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. And did Mr. Jim Elliott appear to be in charge
of that building?
A. I believe that he and -- and Jeff -- Special Agent Jeffery
Hayes were in charge of that.
Q. Now, did that building have a number of rooms in which you
Patrick Daly - Cross
would keep the evidence?
A. I believe it had rooms. I turned the evidence in every day
to Agent Hayes; and what happened inside the building, I was
not involved in.
Q. How did you turn the evidence in? Did you go through a
big, open door, or little door, or what?
A. Normally, Agent Hayes came on site to wherever we were,
either on the street collecting the evidence or at the Murrah
Building, and had a truck that we loaded what we collected into
that truck.
Q. What kind of truck was that?
A. It was a Ryder rental truck.
Q. Did -- did you have any role in off-loading the evidence
from the Ryder rental truck into that storage facility?
A. On a few occasions, yes, because of the size of the
evidence.
Q. And did any of those occasions relate to the items that
you've identified today?
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. Did any of those occasions relate to items that were
metallic items that you thought might have been part of the
Ryder truck?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And did you observe how evidence was stored in
that facility?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. When I off-loaded the few times, the -- the -- say, pieces
of large frame from the truck, they were carried and dropped at
the entrance to the building itself, so I was not involved in
the subsequent storage of that evidence.
Q. You didn't see how the evidence was organized that was in
the warehouse; is that fair to say?
A. I was not involved, yes, in organizing it.
Q. Now, you testified that you had an Evidence Recovery Team
kit with you; is that correct, sir?
A. A kit in that -- it included tools, protective clothing
and -- and packaging materials for the evidence.
Q. Now, on the 20th, when you -- on -- was the morning of the
20th -- was that the first briefing you attended?
A. The night of the 19th, myself and a few agents that were
there at the time met and decided that we would meet on the
morning of the 20th. The first major informal briefing was
that morning.
Q. And that was held at the command post?
A. Yes.
Q. And who chaired that meeting?
A. I believe it was Agents Williams and Hahn and possibly
representatives -- and I can't recall this specifically -- of
the local field office, Oklahoma City field office.
Q. And Agent Hahn had what role in the investigation, as you
understood it? How did he identify himself?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. I believe he and -- he was assisting with Agent Williams as
far as the coordination of the crime scene, making sure that
the teams were assigned specific areas, the search teams.
Making sure that there were enough personnel on site to perform
the crime-scene search.
Q. And what was Agent Williams' responsibility?
A. I believe the -- the similar coordination of the
crime-scene search and also liaison with the local field office
special agent in charge to provide updates as to how this
search was progressing.
Q. What did you understand to be the difference in their
roles, if any?
A. I think overall, I understood that Agent Williams was in
charge; and Agent Hahn, as I said, was assisting him.
Q. Now, that first briefing took place what, about 7:30 in the
morning?
A. It was early. I can't give you an exact time, but I think
it was early.
Q. And there was a schedule established at that time, was
there not, about when there were to be morning briefings and
evening meetings; correct?
A. There was a -- a schedule. I don't think we gave times,
but we put in a morning briefing and then an end-of-shift
briefing where the search team leaders such as myself would --
would indicate -- meet together and indicate to the other
Patrick Daly - Cross
people coordinating the search what was found basically, what
we needed, any plans that we had for the next day. And also,
as the search progressed, we had more than one shift. We had
24-hour shifts so we would brief the team leaders from the next
shift coming on where we left off, what was found, so that they
would have an idea of how the search was progressing.
Q. Now, during the time that you were searching, beginning on
the 20th -- that's when you began, isn't it, actually
searching?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Were you wearing your coveralls?
A. I was wearing -- at first -- I put coveralls on, but
initially, I think I was wearing just pants and shirt and
jacket.
Q. Okay. When did you first put the coveralls on that you
brought?
A. I think as I got colder during the day.
Q. All right. And did you -- what did you wear the second
day? Same coveralls?
A. I had several with me. I don't know if they were the same
or not.
Q. And how about the boots? How many pairs of boots did you
have?
A. I had two pairs of boots with me.
Q. And you wore those on and off during the different days?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. Primarily one pair.
Q. Uh-huh. And what steps did you take to clean those boots
at the end of each workday?
A. Well, since the -- the crime scene, as I described, was
spread out for a mile and a half in one direction --
Q. What steps did you take to clean the boots at the end of
each workday?
A. Well, normally, if I was fearful that I had had any
exposure to blood or human remains, I would use the bleach and
the water solution that the firemen had at the decontamination
stations; and also, I would use a hose just to -- to clean my
boots so that I wouldn't track, you know, the debris, mud, and
dirt from the scene into vehicles or -- or back to the hotel.
Q. Washed them off with a hose from time to time, and
sometimes you sprayed them with chlorine; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you remember any particular occasions on which you did
those things?
A. When I was working inside the federal building, itself,
where there were multiple casualties, I would, at the end of
the day, go up to the firemen decontamination stations.
Q. What day did you first do searches in the federal building,
sir?
A. I believe Monday, the 24th.
Q. All right. And so that would have been the first day on
Patrick Daly - Cross
which you used any chlorine solution; is that correct?
A. I may have used it just to wash my boots from the firemen's
decontamination station previous to that.
Q. Now, in addition to deciding -- having these search teams,
there was a perimeter set up, wasn't there?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. All right. And that's very important at bombing scenes --
correct -- to have a perimeter?
A. At any crime scene, it is.
Q. Bombing scenes, it's important, also; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. Now, you testified that there were grids;
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is it the case that there was a centerline established
or a center point established about where the actual seat of
the explosion was?
A. The -- the actual seat of the explosion was fairly evident
as to being the crater.
Q. Yes, sir. My question is was that the center point from
which you established the grid system?
A. I don't believe it was. I believe it was the intersection
of Harvey and N.W. 5th.
Q. All right. Placing up here what's been received as
Government 940, a map, there's N.W. 5th. I know it's hard to
Patrick Daly - Cross
see. And there's Harvey. So that would be the intersection
that is down towards the Regency Tower from the Murrah Building
and where the Water Resources Board is right on the corner; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And that -- that was your center point; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And from that, you drew two intersecting perpendicular
lines; right? Or not?
A. Yes.
Q. And those four areas that were described by those lines
were the four grid areas; is that right?
A. I believe there was also -- going towards the east, we
divided up two -- two more grid areas, as well.
Q. So you had -- now, one of those additional grid areas was
the Murrah Building itself; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And what was the other grid area?
A. I can't say for sure what the other one was.
Q. Was it the parking lot?
A. I -- it may have been. I can't say for sure.
Q. You don't remember now?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Now, you testified that --
MR. TIGAR: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
Patrick Daly - Cross
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, who made the assignment that you were to search the
grid area that was assigned to you?
A. I believe it was Agent Williams and Agent Hahn.
Q. And they assigned you to Grid Area 1; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And that was the northwest quadrant; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it's -- for that reason that you were the person who
was recovering items that were -- put 940 back on -- the
northwest quadrant would be towards the Regency Tower up
towards this corner of this map; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. Now, the Journal Record Building is not part of
Grid 1, is it?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And what was it that brought you from Grid 1 to
the Journal Record area?
A. Well, my team had completed Grid 1 by the end of the 22d,
beginning of the 23d. And we were tasked with -- with
assisting in recovery of evidence in other locations that
hadn't been searched yet.
Q. Now, as you walked back and forth, doing your searches --
all right -- where was the police line limit beyond which no
Patrick Daly - Cross
civilian personnel were permitted to go?
A. That varied as the -- as the crime scene progressed. As
the exterior areas were searched, then the interior perimeter
was brought closer in towards the Murrah Building.
Q. Did you ever search the crater?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you -- did -- do you know if anybody searched the
crater?
A. I know that the debris from the crater was shipped to that
off-site I previously described where it was sifted through
screening.
Q. When -- did there come a time when the crater was filled
in?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. That was towards the latter stages of the investigation,
the search. I can't recall the specific date.
Q. You don't remember the date?
A. I don't recall the specific date.
Q. Now, in these -- were you having -- were you on the day
shift?
A. Day shift, and sometimes our day shift took into evening;
and occasionally, I worked nights, as well.
Q. Did -- did you show up at these morning briefings every
morning at 7:30?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. I showed up to every morning briefing. I don't recall if
they were always exactly at 7:30.
Q. But approximately 7:30?
A. Early morning.
Q. You were at every briefing; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And those were conducted by Special Agents Hahn and
Williams; correct?
A. Hahn and Williams; or Hahn, or Williams. Or if they
weren't available, some other representative from the command
post.
Q. And did you show up at the evening meetings every evening?
A. Yes, unless I was occupied with something else. Then I
sent a member of my team to represent me.
Q. And sometimes those evening meetings were held at what,
about -- excuse me. These evening meetings were generally held
about 5, 5:30; is that correct, sir?
A. Generally, I'd say around 5, 5:30, 6.
Q. In that -- in that neighborhood?
A. In that area.
Q. Now, in addition to your reporting at these meetings on
what it was you were finding, these meetings were also
opportunities for Agents Hahn and Williams to tell you what you
should be looking for; correct?
A. Certainly.
Patrick Daly - Cross
Q. And they told you to look for Ryder truck parts, did they
not?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. They told you to look for bomb components; correct?
A. Well, that's implicit in the post-blast crime scene. You
look for bomb components.
Q. I understand it's implicit, sir. I'm asking you whether
they asked you to look for bomb components.
A. I don't specifically recall them asking me to look for bomb
components. I think they assumed I would look for bomb
components.
Q. Did -- did there come a time when Agent Williams expressed
a view as to what this device was made of --
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. -- at one of these meetings?
A. I can't specifically recall if Agent Williams did that.
Q. Did there come a time when anybody who was directing these
meetings -- Agent Williams, or Hahn, or anybody -- expressed an
opinion as to what this device was made of?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor, just to
opinion.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: I can't recall anyone making a specific
Patrick Daly - Cross
opinion statement.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Well, whether it was specific or general, sir, did somebody
express a view as to what this device was made of?
A. Not to my knowledge, because as far as I know, we were in
the midst of collecting the evidence at the time.
Q. So is it your statement, sir, that at none of the meetings
that you attended from the 20th of April through the 2d of May,
that neither Special Agent Williams nor Special Agent Hahn
expressed any opinion whatever as to what this bomb was made
of? Is that your testimony?
A. I don't recall if Agent Williams or Hahn made any specific
statements.
Q. I didn't ask you specifics, sir.
A. Well, or statements as far as what the construction of the
device was. I don't recall that. I recall as far as possible
explosive, ammonium nitrate explosive; but I don't recall if
Agent Hahn or Williams made that statement.
Q. Okay. Now, do you remember that somebody in a meeting
talked about the possibility that this was an ammonium nitrate
device? Is that your testimony?
A. Possible ammonium nitrate device, yes.
Q. All right. And as you sit there today, do you remember who
it was that expressed such an opinion?
A. No.
Patrick Daly - Cross
Q. You're sure it wasn't Agent Williams?
A. I -- I'm not sure if it was Agent Williams.
Q. Do you remember discussing the velocity of -- the potential
velocity of detonation of whatever device it had been?
A. No.
Q. When you recovered the door latch that you have
identified --
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. -- 654 --
A. It's right over here.
Q. You have it here. Oh, good. May I -- I'm sorry. Hold
that up.
You told the jury that you noticed pitting and
cratering; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, did you notice pitting and cratering at the time you
recovered it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you report the pitting and cratering to Agents Hahn and
Williams at your meeting?
A. I don't recall it -- my reporting that, but I may have. I
don't recall.
Q. Now, you worked with Agent Hahn in the Avianca case, didn't
you, sir?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And you know that the presence or absence of pitting and
cratering in bomb-scene res -- or bomb-scene evidence is
important; isn't that right?
A. It's important, yes.
Q. And you knew from your experience in the Avianca case that
the existence or nonexistence of pitting and cratering in
bomb-scene recovered items can be controversial?
A. I'm not sure I understand that question.
Q. You knew from your experience in that case that different
people can have different opinions about the meaning of pitting
and cratering; isn't that right?
A. My participation in that case was collection of -- of items
of evidence, and that was limited.
Q. My question is simply, sir, did you become aware as a
result of your experience in the Avianca case that the
existence or nonexistence of pitting and cratering is a matter
of -- of controversy?
A. I'm -- I wasn't aware of that.
Q. Okay. And when you noticed that there was pitting and
cratering on that device, did that have any meaning to you as
an experienced bomb-scene crime technician?
A. Yes.
Q. And it had meaning to you, sir, because pitting and
cratering on the witness material -- is that what we call that?
Patrick Daly - Cross
"Witness material," sir?
A. I would call it a door-lock assembly.
Q. I understand you call it a door-lock assembly. In -- the
bomb-scene crime expert that you are, would you call that
"witness material"?
A. I've never used that term.
Q. All right. Is it material that helps us to see what the
device might have consisted of?
A. This material helps me to -- indicates to me that this was
in very close proximity to an explosive blast.
Q. And in your experience as a crime-scene bomb expert, does
the presence of pitting and cratering as distinct from some
other kind of marking tell you something about the velocity of
detonation of the explosive device?
A. It -- it can, yes. It can indicate that.
Q. And in fact, sir, pitting and cratering is consistent with
a velocity of detonation in a range over 16,000 feet per
second; correct?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: What's the objection?
MS. WILKINSON: I think it's beyond his area of
expertise.
THE COURT: Well, you put in all of his background.
The objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS: I would not know the exact velocity of
Patrick Daly - Cross
detonation.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Well, you worked crime scenes where you recovered metallic
items that contained pitting and cratering; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You worked the Avianca case; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And in the Avianca case, you had metal items that had
pitting and cratering; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And in that case, were you a party to making any
conclusions as to the velocity of detonation of the device?
A. No.
Q. Did you have discussions with other agents at that time in
which you learned about how to interpret the pitting and
cratering in an attempt to determine the velocity of detonation
of the device?
A. No. Not to determine velocity of detonation, no.
Q. All right. And did you have discussions at that time with
other agents about how you might use pitting and cratering to
determine of what the device was composed, what it was made of?
A. Yes. Other than possible residue or unexploded explosive
in -- in those pitting -- or in those craters, I wouldn't know
how else to determine the explosive used.
Q. Are you telling us, sir, that -- that in your experience,
Patrick Daly - Cross
you don't know how pitting and cratering correlates to what an
explosive device is made of? Is that your testimony?
A. No. You -- I answered as far as the velocity of
detonation. I couldn't tell you exactly what velocity of
detonation of an explosive would produce --
Q. I understand.
A. -- an effect as this.
Q. You said "exactly"; correct, sir?
Does pitting and cratering help to establish a range
of velocity of detonation?
A. I believe it could.
Q. Well, would -- and does that belief -- is that based on
your training as a bomb-scene crime -- bomb crime-scene
analyst?
A. It's based on my observations that most -- both post-blast
scenes and also bombing crime-scene schools.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor.
THE COURT: Please just answer the question.
MR. TIGAR: I knocked off the cup of water that was
left on the tray here. I don't want to set off an alarm.
THE COURT: Or short-circuit the equipment.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you. I didn't hear that, but I'll
tell you, that's --
Patrick Daly - Cross
Now I know why Ms. Wilkinson puts those cups of water
there, your Honor.
Now, I apologize.
THE COURT: Want to repeat the question?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. In your training, do you know whether or not pitting and
cratering on a material close to an explosive correlates to
velocity of detonation?
A. Yes, it does, in that -- it would be indicative of it being
a high explosive as opposed to a low explosive; low explosive
being, say, a powder mixture, gunpowder or something similar.
Q. Okay. And what range of velocity of detonation is
consistent with pitting and cratering of the witness material?
A. In general, a high explosive is greater than, say,
3500 feet per second. As far as a specific range, I'm not
aware of any testing to make it any specific, say, 5,000 feet
per second, 20,000 feet per second.
Q. Is it your testimony that an explosive with a velocity of
detonation of 3500 feet per second can cause pitting and
cratering like that?
A. In general, a definition of a high explosive is any
explosive greater than 3500 feet per second. Pitting and
cratering is indicative of a high explosive. I'm not aware if,
say, an explosive that has a velocity of detonation of 4,000
Patrick Daly - Cross
feet per second could produce pitting and cratering. I'm not
aware of --
Q. Were you a testifying agent in the Avianca case?
A. No.
Q. All right. Do you -- did you study the work in the Avianca
case on the relationship between the pitting and cratering that
was observed and the alleged velocity of detonation of the
device?
A. No.
Q. Now, you said that there was some discussion or someone
mentioned -- you don't remember who -- that this might be --
might have been an ammonium nitrate device; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, from your observation as an expert on the scene, did
you find that the device was of a heaving, bursting, thrusting
character?
A. It certainly was heaving and bursting, because it heaved
the floors in the Murrah Building and collapsed the floors of
the Murrah Building. It also was heaving in that it thrust
pieces of metal, as you see displayed before you, two and a
half blocks, 100 yards, 300 yards, up into an eighth floor of
an apartment building over a block away.
Q. Agent, is the word "heaving-type explosive" a word of art
for people who are like you, experienced crime scene bomb
analysts?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. I'm not exactly sure what you determine as a word of art.
Q. Is the word -- have you ever heard before coming to court
today the words "heaving-type explosive"?
A. Yes.
Q. And where is the first time that you heard the words
"heaving-type explosive"?
A. I would think -- or I believe back in my initial training
at Redstone Arsenal in 1985.
Q. And heaving -- what would you -- would you tell us -- and
is it your opinion based on your observation that what you were
seeing there -- let me back up.
There was a lot of devastation, wasn't there, sir?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. All right. Now, let's talk about -- was the devastation
that you saw consistent with what you understood to be a
heaving-type explosive?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. All right. And in your discussions that you had at
these --
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I think we -- I think -- I
think I've done it, Judge. It's all right. I don't -- I don't
really need this podium. But I'll just --
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: It's the water.
MR. TIGAR: Yes. Thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Patrick Daly - Cross
Q. Agent, as you can tell, I don't know anything about this,
so I have to rely on you.
Will you tell the jury, please, what is a heaving-type
explosive? What are examples of it? Ammonium nitrate and fuel
oil; correct?
A. From what I would understand, it's a lower-velocity
explosive. Primarily, if I put it in terms that we can
understand, if I own a quarry and I'm going to blast rock out
of the quarry, I'm not going to use a high-velocity explosive,
military explosive, for example, because I want to control the
size of the rocks. I don't want powder.
Q. Right.
A. So I'm going to use a lesser velocity explosive, which
would be a heaving or pushing explosive. That way, if I use,
say, ammonium nitrate in the quarry or some other type of
commercial explosive, even commercial dynamite that is a lesser
velocity of detonation, I'll have management -- manageable
material. But if I'm a military person and I'm using military
explosives, I want to destroy. So if I put a charge against a
tank or an armored personnel carrier, I want to make sure that
that vehicle is destroyed. So I'm going to use a
high-velocity-of-detonation explosive, which will produce
smaller pieces and greater devastation.
Q. Now, just -- so the ammonium nitrate and fuel oil are
heaving type explosives; correct?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. They are lesser velocity.
Q. Yes. Lesser velocity. And how about a urea nitrate
explosive?
A. I don't know the exact velocity of detonation, but it would
be similar --
Q. Yes.
A. -- I would say, to ammonium nitrate.
Q. In fact, urea nitrate was what -- was thought to be
involved in the World Trade Center case; is that right?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. And you knew that because -- did you know that by
discussing it with Agent Williams?
A. I know it was discussed. I don't know if I personally
discussed it with Agent Williams or heard it from some other
agent on the scene.
Q. All right. So that was something that was talked about as
part of your experience in the World Trade Center bombing
scene; is that correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. And are you aware of what conclusion Agent Williams
eventually reached about whether or not that device was a urea
nitrate device in the World Trade Center?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Patrick Daly - Cross
Q. Now, sir, in addition to ammonium nitrate and fuel oil and
urea nitrate, there are other examples of these heaving-type
explosives; correct, sir?
A. Correct.
Q. There are water gel explosives?
A. Yes.
Q. There are ammonium based dynamites?
A. Yes.
Q. And a variety of others; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, during the time that you were in Oklahoma City from
the -- the 20th of April through the 2nd of May, did you have a
discussion with Special Agent Hahn about what this device might
have been made of?
A. I don't recall if I did or did not.
Q. May I just ask you again: Do you recall having a
discussion with Agent Williams about it?
A. You know, specifically with whom I had a discussion, I
can't say if it was Hahn, Williams, or some other agent.
Q. All right. Did you have a working hypothesis as to what
the device was made of for purposes of your search?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember talking about what the device might have
been made of with officials of the ATF?
A. Yes.
Patrick Daly - Cross
Q. Did you ever see a mockup made by ATF agents and exhibited
in the vicinity of the Murrah Building?
A. I saw what they said was a mockup of it, yes.
Q. All right. And did -- and was that in a truck?
A. It was in a Ryder truck, I believe.
Q. Did you look in the truck?
A. I went to the truck and then I decided that more or less, I
knew what a Ryder truck looked like, and so I didn't go into
the truck.
Q. Did you look into the truck, sir?
A. I didn't stop and look at the truck.
Q. Did you see any barrels inside the truck?
A. I don't recall seeing any barrels.
Q. Did you have a discussion with the ATF agents at the scene
as to why they had brought the truck?
A. I don't think I -- any ATF agents at the scene -- I think
an ATF agent or two on my team.
Q. Oh, you talked -- you talked to them about it?
A. I believe I -- they -- either they or someone else on my
team told me there was a mockup of the device.
Q. And did you discuss this mockup at any of these briefing
sessions that you had in the morning or the afternoon?
A. I don't recall if the mockup was discussed, no.
Q. Did you discuss whether or not it was a good idea to bring
such a thing to a crime scene at any of the briefing sessions?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. Well, from what I can recall, it wasn't within the search
perimeter that we were conducting, so it was outside the crime
scene.
Q. Did you have any discussions as to whether or not it was a
good idea to have brought the thing to the vicinity?
A. Well, I think it was for those who weren't familiar with a
Ryder truck. It might have been a good idea for them to see
the different parts as we were recovering parts.
Q. What -- Is it your understanding that the ATF's purpose in
bringing it was just to show people what a Ryder truck looked
like?
A. I'm not sure what their purpose was.
Q. Okay. Now, is it planned, sir, that you're going to return
here to talk about having found other items beyond what you've
testified to today?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And those would be plastic items?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Well, then I won't ask those because they are
not within the scope.
Now, you testified that you were there for all these
days from the 20th to the 2nd; is that right, sir?
A. Even beyond the 2nd, I believe.
Q. Okay. And were -- did you participate during that time in
sifting the debris?
Patrick Daly - Cross
A. No. That was done at a -- offsite.
Q. Did you supervise in collecting material that was to be
sifted, the debris?
A. No.
Q. Now, did you ever conduct any searches in that parking lot
area?
A. The parking lot across from the Murrah Building?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No.
Q. You searched right around the corner from it; correct, sir?
A. Around the corner and to the buildings in the rear of the
YMCA and going down east on 6th Street.
Q. Now, you testified, sir, that you recovered 654, the door
latch that you have on the table there, and you took a picture
of it in place; is that correct?
A. Embedded into the wall.
Q. Yes, sir. And you took a picture of it in place with the
ruler next to it; correct?
A. Right.
Q. And you took a picture of it removed and then on the floor
directly in front; correct?
A. In the same room.
Q. In the same room; correct?
A. Right.
Q. And that is of course -- excuse me. That is correct crime
Patrick Daly - Cross
scene procedure, is it not, sir?
A. It's -- it's correct procedure, sure.
Q. It is a way to -- to verify exactly where that was found;
correct?
A. It's a way to verify where it's found, yes.
Q. And you instructed your agents to photograph items before
they were picked up; is that right?
A. I instructed them to photograph them and to log them in;
and naturally, it would be best to photograph them before they
are picked up where they are located.
Q. Were you given instructions about that at these meetings?
A. I don't recall any instructions as to photography.
Q. Was -- was that your instruction to your people as to what
you would -- as to how that procedure was to take place?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, in your training as an evidence recovery technician,
do you get instruction as to the order in which you are to
recover items of evidence; that is to say, the order of things
you're supposed to do when you're recovering an item of
evidence?
A. Yes.
Q. And is -- of course, the first thing you have to do is see
it; right?
A. Exactly.
Q. And then the second thing you have to do is to recognize it
Patrick Daly - Cross
is something you're interested in; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And if you decided you're going to photograph it, is that
the next thing you do?
A. That; or if you're going to measure it, exactly, you might
measure it first.
Q. All right.
A. Either way.
Q. So the measuring and the photographing are next; right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, do you also have a procedure that says that you should
mark on a sketch map or plan where you found something?
A. If you're doing sketches, you would either mark it exactly
or approximately on the sketch where you found it.
Q. Okay. And in your kit that you had on this day, were your
team members handed forms that were generated by the FBI on
which they could mark the precise location in which items of
evidence were found?
A. We had sketch forms where they -- if they were sketching
the location where the item was found, they can mark the
location. I did not require them to measure so that they would
have it precisely. They could do it approximately.
Q. Okay. So -- but in your team, when you were directing it,
you asked that a record be kept before the item was moved so
that there would be some contemporaneous notation of
Patrick Daly - Cross
approximately where it was found; is that correct?
A. Either we kept it as part of the regular evidence
collection log, or in some areas in some occasions we either
photographed the item or sketched the location of the item; so
in addition to the evidence collection log, we would also note
on the sketch or on the photo log where it was found.
Q. And in addition to that, you would have the photographer
keep a record of what frame number was being used to photograph
items that were being photographed; is that right?
A. Yes. Either the photographer, or I believe I assigned
another agent to actually do the photographic log sometimes.
That person would copy down the frame number to correspond with
the item.
Q. Now, in addition to the briefings that you had from Agents
Hahn and Williams, did you ever have a briefing from a man
named Hank Gibbons?
A. I may have. I don't know who Mr. Gibbons is.
Q. You don't recall ever having met him?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever have a briefing from -- by an agent named
Thurman?
A. I know Agent Thurman. I don't recall any briefings from
him.
Q. Okay. The -- can you recall any briefings from any special
agents at these sessions that you've told us about, the morning
Patrick Daly - Cross
and evening, other than Special Agent Williams and Special
Agent Hahn?
A. I know there may have been other agents involved; but if
they were from Oklahoma City, I really didn't know them.
Q. And do you recall any discussion of a possible makeup of
this explosive device other than ammonium nitrate?
A. I also recall possibly looking -- or being aware of the
possibility of the ammonium nitrate might have been in plastic
barrels.
Q. Now, that -- you're going to talk about plastic later; is
that correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. So I'm not going to ask you any questions about
any plastic or containers now. I'll wait. I'm asking you not
about containers. I'm asking you about what a device was made
of. Did anybody ever express a view in any of these meetings
other than about ammonium nitrate and fuel oil?
A. No. There was a view that the bomb was contained in a
Ryder truck.
Q. I understand about containers, sir. I'm not -- the Ryder
truck. All right. Then an opinion was expressed it was a
Ryder truck?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I'm asking you about what -- the chemical composition
of it. Did anybody express any opinion about it being anything
Patrick Daly - Cross
other than ammonium nitrate fuel oil, ANFO?
A. I recall ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. I don't recall.
Q. You don't recall any other thing being said?
A. I don't recall any other explosive being determined.
Q. Being what?
A. Being determined or said.
Q. Being determined or said.
MR. TIGAR: I have nothing further at this time, your
Honor, on the understanding that the witness is going to be
returning later.
THE COURT: That was. Maybe we'll take just a moment
to try to wipe up this --
MR. TIGAR: I apologize, your Honor.
THE COURT: And see if the --
MS. WILKINSON: Maybe I could just ask my two
questions --
MR. TIGAR: I promise the Court not to touch it.
THE COURT: Let's just hold on for a minute.
MS. WILKINSON: Can I just stand here and ask my
questions, your Honor?
THE COURT: Well, I'd like to wait. The jury can
stand and stretch for a moment while we see if we can make a
field expedient repair here.
It just goes in one direction.
MS. WILKINSON: It only goes down, your Honor.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Let it dry.
MS. WILKINSON: All right.
THE COURT: All right. Please proceed.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Daily, approximately how much debris
was collected from the crime scene during the investigation.
A. I'd say about 7,000 or more pounds.
Q. Now, was there a photograph taken of every piece of debris
that was collected before it was turned in to Evidence Control?
A. No.
Q. And on your team, did you take a picture of every piece of
evidence that was taken into your custody?
A. No. I instructed them only pieces that I thought were
significant or that they thought were significant, that we
would photograph.
MS. WILKINSON: I have no other questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Does that lead to any recross?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. In this recovery process, sir, were -- right from the
start, were you putting FBI labels on these things?
Patrick Daly - Recross
A. We didn't -- or my team from the start, we didn't have FBI
labels. We would write on the packaging material; or we had, I
think, at the beginning some twist-tie cardboard, plain
cardboard labels that we could write an item number and a date
and a location and the initials of the person, myself or some
of the other team members who seized the item.
Q. Now, was there some controversy between the ATF and FBI
about the labeling?
A. No.
Q. None that you observed?
A. None that I ever observed.
Q. All right. The labeling, was that then procedure that was
established that first morning by Agents Hahn and Williams and
that's what you followed?
A. And I'm not sure if they were the only ones establishing
the procedures, but that first procedure was what we followed.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, very much, sir.
MS. WILKINSON: He's dismissed for now, but will be
re-called.
THE COURT: Yes. He's going to be called back. You
may step down.
And we'll call for the next witness.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. MACKEY: That will be Mr. Bruce Lind.
THE COURT: All right.
(Bruce Lind affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Bruce Alfred Lind. L-I-N-D.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar, is there a problem?
MR. TIGAR: Now, your Honor, I just wanted to retrieve
the exhibits that were given. I wasn't objecting. I wanted to
make sure the table was clear.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Lind, good afternoon. I'm over here. It's a big
courtroom with a lot of people in it.
I'm going to have some questions, and then perhaps
defense counsel will; but let me start by asking you: Are you
representing the Federal Highway Administration here in your
appearance this afternoon?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Let's tell the jury a little bit about yourself, please.
How old are you?
A. I'm 56.
Q. And where do you live currently?
A. I currently live in Lincoln, Nebraska.
Bruce Lind - Direct
Q. And how long have you been in Nebraska?
A. About five months.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And how long?
A. 32 years.
Q. Have children?
A. Yes. Three.
Q. Tell us your educational background.
A. I received a bachelor of science degree from Carroll
College in Waukesha, Wisconsin, and a bachelor of civil
engineering from Marquette University College of Engineering.
Q. Are those joint degrees?
A. Yes.
Q. And in what year were they awarded?
A. 1964.
Q. And shortly after graduating from college, Mr. Lind, did
you go to work for the United States?
A. Yes, I did. I went to work for the then Bureau of Public
Roads.
Q. And has that agency since changed names?
A. Yes. To the Federal Highway Administration.
Q. Have you worked for anybody else in your employment career?
A. Not since I graduated from college.
Q. How many total years then have you worked for what is now
Bruce Lind - Direct
known as the Federal Highway Administration?
A. The Federal Highway Administration itself for 30 years.
Q. Could you give the jury, Mr. Lind, an overview of the
mission or the services provided by that agency.
A. Okay. The Federal Highway Administration is responsible
for administering, as the name implies, the federal aid to
highway program. Taxes are collected on gasoline, diesel fuel,
and so on. And those funds are reallocated to the states for
the purposes of design and construction of highways and the
reconstruction of highways. As an example, the interstate
system is probably the best known.
Federal Highways, the office that I'm responsible for,
is the federal aid division. And we're responsible for the
general oversight of the use of those funds, assuring that
regulations, laws are complied with; that the projects meet
design standards, and so on.
MR. MACKEY: It's drying out, Judge.
THE COURT: Yeah. Mr. Lind, we'll let you in on the
inside here. We spilled some water at the lectern there and
it's an -- it operates electrically and apparently shorted out
for a time. Maybe we need your expertise.
THE WITNESS: I'm not an electrical engineer.
THE COURT: Oh, all right.
MR. MACKEY: He should step down from the stand,
Judge.
Bruce Lind - Direct
THE COURT: Well anyway, if you hear a strange noise,
that's what is happening.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Thanks, Mr. Lind. Over the years, have you worked your way
through various positions with the Federal Highway
Administration?
A. Yes, I have. I started out in -- in 1964 in the three-year
highway engineer training program, was in states including
Oregon, Oklahoma, Washington, D.C., Virginia, Utah, and South
Dakota.
Upon graduation, we went to Alaska. Spent about six
or seven years there. Moved to Louisiana. Spent about seven
years there. Went to New Mexico. Four years there. Went back
to Washington, D.C., and spent three years there, and then
transferred to Oklahoma; and I was three -- eight years there,
until this April, when I moved to Lincoln, Nebraska.
Q. And are you the administrator or the top person for the
state of Nebraska?
A. Yes. I'm the division administrator now in the Nebraska
Division. I was the assistant division administrator in the
Oklahoma Division.
Q. Mr. Lind, were you then in that position as No. 2 in
Oklahoma in April of 1995?
A. Yes. I was. In addition to that, I was also serving as
Bruce Lind - Direct
the acting division administrator because our previous
administrator had been transferred and the new administrator
had not moved into the office yet.
Q. So in April of '95, were you carrying out the
responsibilities of both the first and second in charge?
A. Yes.
Q. And generally speaking, what was the nature of those dual
duties for you in April of '95?
A. I carried, as assistant division administrator, two titles:
the assistant and also engineering coordinator. And those
duties consisted of being the chief engineer for the office and
also a chief of staff. And I supervised all but myself and my
immediate supervisor in the office.
Q. And in April of '95, where was the Federal Highway
Administration officed? Where was it located?
A. We were located in Oklahoma City. We were in Room 454 of
the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
Q. And at that time, what was the size of your staff?
A. I believe we had 25 folks total.
Q. Let me turn your attention, if I can now, Mr. Lind, to the
day of April 19, 1995, and that morning.
A. Okay.
Q. Would you tell the members of the jury approximately what
time of day you arrived?
A. I arrived shortly before 7:00 in the morning.
Bruce Lind - Direct
Q. Would you describe to the members of the jury what you did
in the course of the next two hours.
A. After getting some coffee, I went into my office and turned
on my computer, checked my calendar on the computer, looked
over some paperwork left over from the day before; and then
some guests came in and we chatted, waiting for a 9:00 meeting.
Q. Were you hosting a meeting, a business meeting that
morning?
A. Yes. We were hosting a -- what's called a "forest highway
meeting." It's an annual meeting that's held at the division
office.
Q. And how many different visitors showed up that morning to
participate in that meeting?
A. There were two gentlemen from the Forest Service, a lady
from our eastern office of direct construction, and a gentleman
from the Oklahoma Department of Transportation.
Q. In the course of that morning, Mr. Lind, and prior to the
start of your meeting, did you have an opportunity to see,
observe, or engage in any conversation with any other fellow
employees of yours?
A. Yes. Let's see. My secretary, Kathy Quinn -- I know I saw
her. I believe I ran into Jim Carver, our right-of-way
officer; Johnny Wade, our planning and research engineer; Larry
Jones, our computer specialist, and I believe Michelle Reeder.
I think I saw her in the course of the morning.
Bruce Lind - Direct
Q. What time again was the meeting to begin?
A. 9:00.
Q. And did you, in fact, begin that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. In my office.
Q. Could you describe for the members of the jury where your
office was located.
A. It's in roughly the southeastern corner of the building. I
was just one office to the west of the most-corner office.
Q. So if I were in your office looking out the windows, would
I see the Federal Courthouse south of the plaza?
A. Yes, you would.
Q. And do you recall approximately what time the meeting, in
fact, started?
A. It was very close to 9:00, because I can remember
remarking, "Well, it's 9:00, it's ready -- time we get
started."
Q. And other than the visitors that you've referenced, were
there any other fellow employees from the Federal Highway
Administration in that meeting?
A. Yes. Gary Rimrodt, our financial manager, was also in the
meeting.
Q. And shortly after 9:00, Mr. Lind, what happened?
A. Well, we had just started. Peggy De Weese, the lady from
Bruce Lind - Direct
Eastern Direct Federal, was going over with us the minutes of
our previous meeting. And then there was an explosion.
Q. And I'd like for you now, Mr. Lind, to describe to the jury
what you experienced.
A. My first recollection or recollections where I was -- I
found myself on the floor. I was lying on my right side. And
at the same time, I heard a metallic -- very loud metallic
bang. And I discovered my feet were pinned under my -- my
desk. I had a Systems Furniture desk, and it fell off the
pedestal and landed on my feet. There was a lot of commotion.
A couple of the people in my office, you know: What -- what's
happening? What's going on? Is everybody okay? And then they
started dusting themselves off; and I said that I was okay, but
my feet were trapped.
Q. Mr. Lind, were the -- excuse me. Were you trapped in such
a fashion that you could free yourself?
A. Not readily, no. A couple of the -- the men in the office
with me made an attempt to lift the -- the desk off my feet but
were unsuccessful. And then the building started to come down.
So they got under and with everybody else except me -- under a
small conference table that I had in my office.
Q. This was a number of people that you've described all in
your office --
A. Yes.
Q. -- shortly after the blast?
Bruce Lind - Direct
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you're laying on the floor, trapped underneath, or at
least your feet trapped underneath your desk?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it that everyone heard that led them to seek cover
under the conference table?
A. Well, you could hear a collapsing, the building was
vibrating and -- and the floors were beginning to collapse.
Q. As an engineer, were you particularly attuned to what you
were hearing?
A. I understood what was happening.
Q. What did you understand?
A. Well, the -- the building was -- was falling down. And it
was starting, it appeared to be, from the bottom. And it
would -- it seemed like a floor would fall and then it would
maybe hesitate a few seconds and then another one and another
one as it -- it worked its way up. Sometimes it felt like
maybe a few seconds of a pause, but just almost a steady rain
of debris coming down outside my office.
Q. This was all that you're learning and hearing as you're
laying trapped underneath your desk?
A. Yes.
Q. After the debris came to subside and it grew quiet,
Mr. Lind, were you able to get out from underneath your desk?
A. Yes. We were able to clear enough of the debris off my
Bruce Lind - Direct
desk that we were able to find the edges; and two of them
lifted it just enough so I could pull my feet out. And then I
was able to stand up.
Q. And all the persons who had been inside your office that
morning at the time of the explosion, were they alive?
A. Yes. Yes. All were.
Q. And what did the group of you do then after you were freed
from your desk?
A. A couple went over and helped Kathy Quinn, my secretary,
out from under some debris at her desk, which was just outside
my office. And then we all congregated in the division
administrator's office, which was the corner-most office. And
Jim Erickson, who was to be the new division administrator,
had -- just happened to be in the office on a house-hunting
trip that day and had just come in prior to the beginning of
the meeting. And he was in there, as well. So the eight of us
congregated in the southern half of that office and let people
down below know that we were there and asked for help.
Q. Mr. Erickson's office was immediately east of yours?
A. Yes.
Q. In that direction? It would be in the extreme southeast
corner of the building?
A. That's right.
Q. Were you able to walk out of your office and head in the
direction of the stairwell?
Bruce Lind - Direct
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. There was a big gaping hole between my office and the
stairwell.
Q. While you were laying on the floor -- earlier, Mr. Lind, I
meant to ask -- was there anything you could see from that
position that on any other day before April 19th, you had never
been able to see?
A. I saw the sky. I was laying on my right side, but I could
crane my neck over to my left and look out and see blue sky.
Q. In the course of that morning, Mr. Lind, were you and the
other members in your group eventually rescued from that
location?
A. Yes. They were able to secure an extension ladder and put
it up to the windows, and we were able to slip out over the
ledge and then down on the -- down the ladder.
Q. And you're on the fourth floor; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And this ladder that you gained -- escaped from: Was it on
the back of a firetruck?
A. No. No. It -- I understand that it had been secured from
an Oklahoma Gas and Electric Company truck that happened to be
in the area. It was a two-section.
Q. Freestanding extension ladder?
A. Yes.
Bruce Lind - Direct
Q. Did you take any steps to anchor the ladder at the top
where you all were located?
A. Yes. The lad -- the ladder itself was standing almost
vertically. And there were a couple good-sized men down at the
bottom. And we had pulled down the drapes from the window in
my office as well as some from the division administrator's
office. And we tied the top of the ladder off onto one of the
posts between the windows so that it wouldn't tip backwards.
Q. And did fire personnel come up to the floor and assist you
and the others in your escape?
A. Yes. There was an off-duty fireman. He was the first one
up. And he came up and he mainly assisted Kathy Quinn. She
had gotten hit in the head and was bleeding, and she had also
taken a pretty good hit to her hip.
Q. Approximately how long, Mr. Lind, were you trapped inside
the building from the time of the explosion until your escape?
A. I would say probably on the order of 30 to 45 minutes.
Q. And after you made it to ground level, did you contact
emergency personnel and eventually make it home safely that
day?
A. Yes. After we got down, the first order of business was to
make sure that Kathy was being taken care of. And she -- they
had kind of a triage station on the south end of the building.
And we confirmed that she had been taken care of and was taken
to St. Anthony's Hospital.
Bruce Lind - Direct
And then during that period, I also walked to the
south side of the building and I found Jim Carver, who had also
been in, but in the other end of the office. And I didn't see
anybody else that I knew from our office.
So let's see. Charlie Younger ultimately walked back
to the highway department offices. Gary Rimrodt walked over to
the IRS building where his wife was working, and I guess he
went home. And I took Bev Allen and Ed Tarver from the Forest
Service and Peggy De Weese from our office and Jim Erickson,
and we went over to the county jail. And then I walked over to
a bail bondsman's office and called my wife, and she picked us
up there. And we dropped Jim off at his motel and we took
everybody else to my home.
Q. Mr. Lind, before you made it down the ladder, while you
were still up on the fourth floor, did you take a moment to
observe how much of the former offices of the Federal Highway
Administration were no longer there?
A. I looked out towards the -- it would be the northwest and
north, yes.
Q. What would you describe?
A. Well, there wasn't very much left. There was this big hole
that cut all the way through nearly to the south wall, and it
stretched all the way over to where Motor Carriers was. And of
course, it went all the way to the south wall. Oh, excuse me.
To the north wall.
Bruce Lind - Direct
Q. Mr. Lind, on April 19, 1995, how many of the 25 staffers or
people on the payroll were, in fact, present inside the office
at the time of the explosion?
A. There were 16.
Q. And, Mr. Lind, how many of those 16 people died?
A. 11.
Q. Mr. Lind, take a look, please -- I'm going to ask to be
displayed Government Exhibit 952D, the floor plan previously
admitted into evidence for the fourth floor of the Alfred P.
Murrah Building.
A. Okay.
Q. And orient the jury. Is the --
MR. MACKEY: Kathi, if we can show the jury, please.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I'm sorry.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. To orient the jury, is your floor space that in yellow?
A. Yes, it is. That, and the Office of Motor Carrier Safety.
Q. And let me take just a moment to ask you to explain to the
jury what the difference is between those two offices, Motor
Carrier Safety and the other facility.
A. We share offices and some responsibilities with the Office
of Motor Carrier Safety. They are also a part of the Federal
Highway Administration. Their thrust is more towards the
trucking industry. High -- trucking safety and so on. Also
Bruce Lind - Direct
truck size and weight.
Q. Mr. Lind, with the pen that's attached to a wire, reach
down below your desktop and mark an X in the office in which
the meeting was taking place that morning.
Do you want to try again? You can just press the
button and -- for the record, we're marking an X in the box,
the upper second one from the upper left; is that correct?
A. Yeah. Yes.
Q. Where was Mr. Erickson?
A. Okay. He would have been over in here.
Q. And what room was it that the group of you eventually
escaped through the window?
A. In that room right in here.
Q. Mr. Erickson's?
A. Yes.
Q. You mentioned earlier that a Mr. Carver survived the blast,
or you saw him present that day; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he among those who was killed?
A. No. Mr. Carver was -- I saw him on the street on the south
side on Forest Street after the bombing.
Q. Could you put an X where his office was located on
April 19.
Can I ask you now -- can I ask you, Mr. Lind, with the
pen, draw the approximate scheme of the hole that had emerged
Bruce Lind - Direct
inside the building that morning.
A. Okay. Something on that order.
Q. All right. So essentially, the entire north wall of the
fourth floor that housed Motor Carrier Safety personnel and the
remaining personnel of the Federal Highway?
A. That's correct.
Q. And extending as far south as the office that fell between
Mr. Carver's and yours?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was in the office, that third office?
A. The office immediately to the left of Mr. Carver is the --
Johnny Wade's office.
Q. Did a Jerry Kirk survive the blast that morning?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And do you know where Mr. Kirk was at the time of the
blast?
A. Yes. He was over in the men's room.
Q. Where was his office or his work station?
A. Somewhere in this neighborhood.
Q. Did a Michael Herron survive --
A. Yes.
Q. -- the explosion?
A. Yes.
Q. And why so?
A. Because he was on annual leave that day.
Bruce Lind - Direct
Q. Would you mark an X for Mr. Herron's office had he been at
work that day.
A. Right there. The second office from the left.
Q. You mentioned earlier that one of your staffers,
Mr. Rimrodt -- is that how we pronounce it?
A. That's correct, Rimrodt.
Q. -- was present in the meeting at your invitation taking
place on the south side of the building?
A. That's correct. Yes.
Q. Put an X where his office was normally.
To your knowledge, Mr. Lind, were all the persons
inside the line that you have drawn and who were present on the
morning of April 19 -- were they killed in the explosion?
A. Yes. At least either during the explosion or -- except for
John Youngblood, and he died subsequent to the --
Q. As a result of injuries he sustained in the explosion?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Lind, prior to coming to court, did I ask you to
examine a large chart, the same thing that's shown here before
you, and affix to the chart name plates of those individuals
who were employed by Federal Highway and the position of their
offices on that morning?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'd offer into admission
Government Exhibit 952D and postpone displaying it.
Bruce Lind - Direct
THE COURT: All right.
MR. TIGAR: Subject to the earlier discussion, yes.
THE COURT: Yes. Same position. It's received and
may be displayed later.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Finally, Mr. Lind, I'd like to show you Government Exhibit
1113. That, you've seen before, a number of photographs of
those persons killed that morning?
A. I believe so. Uh-huh.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Exhibit
1113.
THE COURT: All right. Agent Tongate, will you help
us?
Is this 1113?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. 1113.
THE COURT: All right. We'll receive it with the
same --
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: -- same continuing position.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. With the Court's permission, Mr. Lind, could you rise
enough to go over and point to each photograph and tell the
jury, please, the name of the person shown in each photograph
and the position they held with Federal Highway on the morning
of the bombing.
Bruce Lind - Direct
A. This is Lucio Aleman. He was our traffic and safety
engineer.
Mark Bolte was our environmental coordinator.
Mike Carrillo was the officer in charge of the Office
of Motor Carriers.
Larry Jones was our computer specialist.
J. K. Martin was an area engineer.
Jerry Parker was an area engineer.
Michelle Reeder was one of our secretaries.
Rick Tomlin was a safety specialist with Office of
Motor Carrier Safety.
Johnny Wade was our planning and research engineer.
Ronota Woodbridge was our pavement and materials
engineer.
And John Youngblood was a safety specialist with the
Office of Motor Carriers.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Lind. You can retake your seat.
Mr. Lind, of the 11 individuals who died that morning
from your agency, how many were engineers like yourself?
A. Okay. I want to say there were six.
Q. And do you know the age range that was represented by those
who died?
A. I think Mark was about the youngest, and I think he was on
the order of late 20's. And the oldest, I believe, was John
Youngblood, and he was, I think, about 50, 52, somewhere in
Bruce Lind - Direct
that range.
Q. And if you were to add up all the total years of service to
the Federal Highway Administration for each of those 11
individuals, how much service did the agency lose that morning?
A. Probably on the order of 60 or 70 years.
MR. MACKEY: Thanks, Mr. Lind. That's all I have.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Tigar, do you have
questions?
MR. TIGAR: Very briefly, your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, sir. Hi. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm
one of the lawyers appointed to help Terry Nichols.
I wanted to put up here what's been received in
evidence -- I wonder if you could click the pen that you have
there, just click the side. If we could get rid of the red
marks there. I don't know if that -- keep -- keep clicking. I
think they will all disappear.
Thank you very much, sir. I'm putting up here the map
that's been received as Government's Exhibit 940 of the
downtown area there -- which you recognize that, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, when you managed to -- when you got that ladder, you
would have come out on this side of the building that's
Bruce Lind - Cross
indicated here that we call, what, the southeast --
A. Yes.
Q. -- side there?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And then you could walk -- you walked through
the plaza and made your way, you said, to a bail bondsman's
office?
A. Well, first, I went over to what would have been the east
side of the building where Kathy was.
Q. Over here on --
A. On North Robinson.
Q. -- North Robinson?
A. And checked on her. And then went over on Forest Street
and found Jim, and then went back and collected the rest of the
people. And yes, we went to a bail bondsman's office.
Q. So you -- you did, you went out to check on -- on your
colleague; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then on 4th Street, just across, that's in front of
this federal courthouse, here?
A. Yes.
Q. Below the south of the Murrah Building?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, by the time that -- that you were checking on your
colleagues and -- and assembling people so that you could be
Bruce Lind - Cross
helpful to them, a number of vehicles had begun to arrive to --
to help in this situation; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the -- and is it fair to say that not just the fire
department, but a whole lot of other vehicles responded to this
scene to be helpful?
A. Yes.
Q. And that included the -- the folks that helped you down.
They were from OGE?
A. OG&E. Yes. There was at least one truck. I don't
remember seeing the OG&E truck.
Q. I see. And the ladder that you were able to get down, was
that an OGE ladder?
A. That's what I understand.
Q. And that's from Oklahoma Gas and Electric; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And did you see some other cars, people showing up there to
help with the triage and to help people get to the kind of care
that they needed?
A. Except for ambulances and emergency-type vehicles, I don't
remember specifically other vehicles.
Q. Okay. About how far away was the bail bondsman's office
that you went to, if you can remember?
A. Oh, I would say -- well, it was over at the county jail's
office, so I would say on the order of perhaps a half a mile.
MR. TIGAR: About half a mile.
Thank you very much, sir. I have nothing further.
Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: No. The witness may be excused.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. TIGAR: Of course, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
We'll take our afternoon recess at this point and so,
members of the jury, we'll take our usual rest stop here with,
of course, the cautions always given. You get tired of hearing
it, but you know that I must remind you as you must obey the
caution of avoiding discussion of the case or anything about it
among yourselves and with all other persons and continue to
avoid anything outside of the evidence that could influence
your decision.
You're excused now for 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 3:16 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. We'll recess. 20 minutes.
(Recess at 3:17 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:36 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 3:37 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, Judge. FBI Agent Greg Carl.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Gregory Carl affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Gregory Carl, spelled C-A-R-L.
THE COURT: Mr. Mearns.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. How are you employed, sir?
A. I'm employed as a special agent with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Q. How long have you been an FBI agent?
A. Since 1990.
Q. Where were you assigned in April, 1995?
A. I was assigned to the Miami division of the FBI.
Q. Did there come a time on April 19, 1995, when you were
directed to report to Oklahoma City to assist in the
investigation of the crime scene?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And did you report to Oklahoma City on that same day,
April 19?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You understand that you're here to testify about your
Gregory Carl - Direct
recovery of one set of specific items; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. I want to direct your attention, then, to April 23, 1995.
Do you recall that you were participating in the investigation
of the crime scene on that day?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What was your assignment on that day, April 23?
A. On April 23, I was assigned to assist Team 2 in collection
of evidence in Grid 2.
Q. And where was that grid located?
A. That was at the Journal Records Building.
Q. Where was that building located in relation to the Murrah
Building?
A. Without a map, that would be directly, I guess, to the rear
of the building.
Q. And what was -- where specifically was your assignment?
A. I was searching the rooftop of the Journal Records
Building.
Q. Did you locate and collect any evidence on the rooftop of
the Journal Records Building that day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you find?
A. I found numerous pieces of plastic and other metal
fragments, things of that nature.
Q. With respect to the plastic that you found, did you collect
Gregory Carl - Direct
and seize those items?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. I'd like you to look inside that envelope that you have,
which has been marked as Government's Exhibit 785. What is
that Government's Exhibit 785?
A. This is the pieces of plastic I collected on April 23.
Q. And that plastic is contained in an envelope on which the
Government exhibit sticker is?
A. The Government exhibit sticker is on the container that I
collected.
Q. With respect to that envelope, how do you recognize that
envelope as the envelope in which you put the plastic that same
day, April 23?
A. I recognize my writing where I described where I picked up
the evidence as well as my initials and date and the item
number on the package right here.
Q. And the item number is what?
A. Item No. 14.
Q. Item No. 14 of 1B92?
A. That would be correct.
Q. What did you do with the plastic that's contained in that
envelope when you located it on top of the Journal Record
Building?
A. I sealed them and turned them over at the end of the
afternoon to the Evidence Control Center.
Gregory Carl - Direct
Q. When you say you sealed them, did you seal it in that
envelope that you have before you right now?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. That's the envelope that has your writing on it?
A. That's correct.
Q. Describe the plastic that's contained within that envelope.
A. Can I open the bag?
Q. No, don't open the bag. Just describe it by looking
through it.
A. I have several pieces of charred-looking plastic with
jagged edges, fragmented pieces of plastic.
Q. And in what area on top of the Journal Record Building did
you locate those items?
A. It would be the lower roof of the Journal Records Building.
Q. In what kind of an area, how large of an area?
A. The area would have been based upon the dimensions of that
lower roof -- we collected the evidence by a line search. We
fanned out and searched the entire rooftop of that building, of
the lower roof building; and we collected like items in this
same bag. So it would be approximately -- guessing -- 30 feet
by 80 feet.
MR. MEARNS: With the Court's permission, may Agent
Carl step down and approach the model?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Gregory Carl - Direct
Q. Agent Carl, are you familiar with this model, Exhibit 642?
A. I am not.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to look at this model before
coming to court?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Could you locate on the model where you located the items
contained in Government's Exhibit 785?
A. It would be on the lower portion here of the Journal
Records Building.
Q. And the Journal Record Building is this building that's
located just to the south of N.W. 6th Street?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Directly to the north of the Murrah Building?
A. That's right.
Q. When you say "on the lower part of the Journal Record
Building," you're referring to the part of the building that's
on the west side of the total Journal Record Building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And approximately in the center of that roof?
A. They were spread out throughout the top of this -- the roof
of this building. The majority of them were on this portion of
the rooftop.
Q. By "this portion," you're referring to the southwest side?
A. The southwest portion, correct.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you, Agent Carl.
Gregory Carl - Direct
No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Cross-examination.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello, Agent Carl.
A. Hello. How are you?
Q. Fine, thank you. How are you, sir?
A. Pretty good.
Q. All right. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the
lawyers appointed to help out Terry Nichols.
And just -- you were a part of a search team that was
in Grid 2. Is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And Grid 2 is the second grid, counting in a clockwise
direction, of the four geographic grids that were established;
is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And then there was an additional grid for the building
itself and one for the parking lot. Is that your
understanding?
A. That is correct.
Q. And now in this -- this particular time, you were searching
in Grid 2, Zone L. Right?
A. That is right.
Q. And what was Zone L?
Gregory Carl - Cross
A. That would be the Journal Records Building.
Q. So you gave -- if I can step over here. You can see from
there, can't you?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay. The Journal Record Building is this one right
here -- correct -- that I'm pointing to, or is it this one
here?
A. It's my --
Q. This whole thing?
A. It's my understanding the entire thing.
Q. This whole thing is the Journal Record Building, and that
was called Zone L. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, who gave you the assignment to do the search on
the rooftop?
A. Well, I was assisting Team 2. The overall coordination
would have been Rick Hahn.
Q. Rick Hahn?
A. That's correct.
Q. Had you been in a meeting where Mr. Hahn had discussed
looking for plastic?
A. At one time I was, but I don't know at which point in the
investigation that meeting took place.
Q. Okay. Was it -- you recovered this item, the item that
you're looking at there, on the 23d; correct?
Gregory Carl - Cross
A. That's right.
Q. And on that same day, you also recovered miscellaneous
plastic fragments, metal fragments, among other things.
Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. I'm sorry. You have to say "yes" so the court reporter can
get it.
A. That's right.
Q. And was the meeting that you had with Mr. -- at which
Mr. Hahn said, "Look for plastic," before your recovery of this
item on the roof of the Journal Record Building?
A. I don't know.
Q. Now, was the meeting at which Mr. Hahn said, "Look for
plastic": Was that one of these morning or evening sessions
that was held somewhere near the crime scene?
A. That would be correct.
Q. Now, the particular one at which -- was there more than one
meeting at which Mr. Hahn discussed plastic, or just one?
A. I don't recall if there were more than one, or not.
Q. And was Mr. Hahn the only supervisory agent at these
meetings who was discussing plastic?
A. No. Special Agent Dave Williams would have also been
present.
Gregory Carl - Cross
Q. Now, Special Agent Dave Williams and Special Agent Rick
Hahn were the people who were in charge of the overall crime
scene; is that correct?
A. The special agent in charge of the Oklahoma City office
would have been overall in charge of the crime scene. Dave
Williams was working -- coordinating the crime scene at the
behest of the special agent in charge.
Q. So was it your understanding that Special Agent Williams
and Special Agent Hahn were coordinating the crime scene?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many of these briefings did you attend, or
meetings, where Special Agent Hahn and Special Agent Williams
were in charge?
A. At all meetings that I attended, they were in charge of
them.
Q. You arrived at -- the first such meeting was the morning of
the 20th; is that right?
A. I arrived on the 19th.
Q. I understand, but was the first such meeting at which they
presided the morning of the 20th?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And these meetings lasted -- were held twice a
day until sometime in May; is that your remembrance?
A. That is right.
Q. Now, at these meetings, was there some discussion that a --
Gregory Carl - Cross
of a theory that the device was contained in a plastic
container?
A. The discussion that there was probably some sort of a
container, plastic, metal, otherwise; but yes, there was
discussion that there would be a container that would probably
have contained this device.
Q. Now, was there a discussion of any particular color of
plastic?
A. There may have been discussions of white- and blue-colored
plastic, but I couldn't say for certain, sir.
Q. Now, isn't it a fact, sir, that at one of the meetings that
was held before the 23d of April, Agent Hahn or Agent Williams
talked about blue plastic?
A. I don't know the dates.
Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that -- then, that at one of the
meetings that you had, Agent Hahn or Agent Williams talked
about blue plastic?
A. That would be fair to say.
Q. Now, were you present at a time when the ATF brought a
Ryder truck to the area near the Murrah Building?
A. I saw that.
Q. Did you see inside the truck?
A. I continued to walk past it.
Q. Did you see inside the truck?
A. I saw inside but not very closely.
Gregory Carl - Cross
Q. Did you see some white barrels with blue lids inside the
truck?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you have any conversation with the ATF agents about
the white barrels with the blue lids in the truck?
A. I didn't speak to the ATF agents. I went back to our
command post and discussed it with my superiors.
Q. And did you discuss with your superiors the advisability of
having such a thing near the crime scene?
A. I asked how -- how come they were inside the -- where they
were.
Q. Where were they?
A. Well, they were a significant distance away from the crime
scene when they were near the YMCA building.
Q. Now, the YMCA building is this white building catty-corner
from the Murrah Building. Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Where did you observe this ATF truck with the building --
with the barrels in it?
A. Which way is north?
Q. Today, or on the map?
A. On the map.
Q. All right. On the map, it's pointed directly towards the
back of the courtroom, I believe.
A. It would be the northeast corner of the back of the YMCA
Gregory Carl - Cross
building.
Q. So we would refer to something -- can you see from where
you are, sir?
A. Pretty good.
Q. It's this grayish -- this parking lot here that's on the
other side of the YMCA building?
A. That's my recollection.
Q. All right. And your question to your superiors was, "Why
are they there"; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And to which superior did you communicate that concern?
A. I believe that was Agent Hahn.
Q. And?
A. Agent Hahn.
Q. All right. And did he direct -- do you know if he directed
that anything be done as a result of this?
MR. MEARNS: Objection to the scope.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Do you know whether he directed anything be done as a
result of this?
A. I do not.
Q. Did he express an opinion about what you were telling him?
MR. MEARNS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Gregory Carl - Cross
THE WITNESS: He was unaware that they were there.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Did he express an opinion about the wisdom of that thing
being in that proximity to the crime scene?
A. Not to me.
Q. Did you hear him express one to someone else?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Now, how many days did you work there, sir?
A. I left near the first -- near the beginning of May. I
don't know the exact date that I left.
Q. And are the fragments, part of which are in the exhibit
before you, the only plastic that you recovered?
A. No, sir, it is not.
Q. And up on that roof where you were -- how did you get up
there?
A. The stairway inside the building.
Q. And you just went out on the roof?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is it fair to say that the roof was a mess?
A. No.
Q. What did it look like?
A. The one staircase on the rear side of the Journal Records
Building was collapsed, and some of the concrete blocks were
broken away from its foundation. The upward ventilation system
was sucked back towards the Murrah Building, and there was
Gregory Carl - Cross
general -- there were some pieces of metal and fragmentation
that was scattered across the rooftop.
Q. Pieces of metal that evidently didn't belong there;
correct?
A. That is right.
Q. You say that the ventilation was sucked back toward the
Murrah Building?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Have you had experience in bomb crime-scene investigation
before April 19?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. So you know what the -- what's the second wave called? I
mean there is the initial blast wave that goes in an outer
direction, and then there is a -- that vacuum has to be filled
in. What's that second phase called?
A. It's referred to as a negative-pressure phase.
Q. The negative-pressure phase. Was it your impression, then,
that whatever had deformed that air -- that air-conditioning
unit was the negative-pressure phase? Is that what that looked
like?
A. That's correct.
Q. You say you saw a bunch of pieces of metal up there. What
kind of pieces of metal did you see?
A. I didn't analyze them. Just metal fragments.
Q. Now, were they fragments only, or were there also some
Gregory Carl - Cross
strips?
A. I don't recall collecting any strips.
Q. Well, did you see anything that looked like the trim strips
off vehicles?
A. I believe there may have been a few.
Q. All right. And by "trim strips off vehicles," I'm
referring to the strips that are put alongside the doors of
passenger vehicles or vans that are attached by those plastic
doohickeys that the manufacturers put on. Is that what you're
talking about also?
A. I -- I don't recall exactly if those were strips that I saw
up there. I don't recall collecting any of them myself, but
there may have been some on that rooftop.
Q. You saw some things that resembled that. Is that fair to
say? And you can't be sure what they are. Right?
A. Right.
Q. But they didn't look like the sorts of things that were
there to begin with; right?
A. That's right.
Q. Didn't look like an architectural or construction detail of
the roof; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, from the roof, did you also look down at the scene
around?
A. Yes, I did.
Gregory Carl - Cross
Q. Did you look south?
A. I did.
Q. Now, as you looked south -- this is on the 23d?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You saw this parking lot. Correct?
A. I did.
Q. And you see this tree there? That was there; right? Can
you see the tree?
A. I cannot.
MR. TIGAR: Can he come down, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, he may. Yes.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. You see the tree?
A. Uh-huh.
MR. TIGAR: May the agent approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
You may approach the model. Sure.
MR. TIGAR: All right.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. If you could stand back here next to me, then we don't
block anybody's view.
This is the parking lot area; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And there were on the 23d -- were there still vehicles in
Gregory Carl - Cross
this parking lot?
A. There were a few vehicles, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. You can go back up.
From -- what else did you see in that parking lot?
A. I saw other agents processing the vehicles in that parking
lot.
Q. Now, did some of those vehicles appear to have exploded?
A. Did some of them appear to have exploded?
Q. Yes. Well, some of the vehicles you saw looked like they
had been in a car crash; right?
A. They looked like they had received a tremendous force, yes.
Q. Yes. That is to say they were crumpled and bent and glass
broken out. Correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Weren't there other vehicles that looked as though they
caught on fire?
A. Yes.
Q. And were some of those vehicles that had caught on fire
upside down?
A. I don't recall their orientation. I believe there were
some upside down, though.
Q. And have you ever investigated a scene -- crime scene prior
to this time in April of 1995 in which you have seen vehicles
that have burned?
A. Yes, I have.
Gregory Carl - Cross
Q. And did these vehicles appear to be ones in which flame had
engulfed the gas tank and the gas tank exploded and the -- and
the gas tank exploded?
A. To be honest with you, I was doing other duties, and I
didn't really look at these vehicles too closely.
Q. Okay. You did not look closely?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Let's go back to the top of the roof then.
In addition to the metal parts, you also -- were you
the agent that made out the evidence log?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Which agent was that?
A. If you could show me, I would let you know.
Q. Sure. If it would refresh your recollection --
MR. TIGAR: I'm showing him the evidence recovery
log -- I'm sorry -- Mr. Mearns, just to refresh his
recollection.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I'm going to show you, just to refresh your recollection,
not in evidence what I believe to be this evidence recovery
log. Does that refresh your recollection as to the agent that
made it?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And did that agent do all the writing on here?
Gregory Carl - Cross
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Now, I see here that there are a number of agents listed.
Were all of you on top of the roof?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you said that it was a line search; correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, what's a line search?
A. A line search is basically where you line up side by side.
Q. Like this?
A. Arm to arm.
Q. Arm to arm, like a line dance with no music. Correct?
A. I would assume that would be correct.
Q. And what you're trying to do is you're trying to cover all
of this area and search; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Now, as you were searching, did you notice pieces of
automobiles, such as pieces of tires?
A. I believe there were some pieces of tires on the roof as
well.
Q. Did you see miscellaneous auto parts, bulbs, wire
harnesses, and so on?
A. I believe so.
Q. Let me show you this. I'm not showing you something you
did, but you see where it says, "Lou Ann Sandstrom"?
A. Uh-huh.
Gregory Carl - Cross
Q. Did you see that item or items like that up there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And the "yes, I did" refers to bulbs and wire
harnesses; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You also said that these other plastic fragments -- did you
see black plastic up there?
A. I picked up lots of pieces of plastic. I don't recall the
colors of every piece I picked up.
Q. How many pieces of plastic do you think you saw up there?
A. Numerous pieces. I mean, it wasn't overwhelming.
Q. Right. On direct examination you said "numerous," and what
I'm trying to get at is what you mean by "numerous."
A. 25, 50.
Q. Okay. Somewhere 25 to 50. Now -- and do you remember
seeing plastic of other colors than white?
A. I think there may have been, yes.
Q. That's your best memory?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And can you remember as you sit there today what the
other color pieces of plastic were?
A. I cannot.
Q. All right. Did anyone ever ask you to look for pieces of
plastic other than white and blue?
A. No one asked me to look for any particular colors, no.
Gregory Carl - Cross
Q. All right. Well, no one ever asked you to look for any
particular colors. Correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. You heard "blue plastic" mentioned at sometime in the
meetings. Correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You heard "white plastic" mentioned at sometime in the
meetings; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever hear any other color of plastic discussed in
the meetings other than white and blue?
A. Not to my recollection.
Q. And did you ever hear anyone other than Agent Hahn and
Agent Williams discussing the white and blue plastic?
A. No, I did not.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, sir. No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Mearns, you have some?
MR. MEARNS: No questions, your Honor. He may be
excused.
THE COURT: Agree to excuse the witness?
MR. TIGAR: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. Nothing further.
He may be excused, yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: ATF Agent Charles Gonzales.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Charles Gonzales affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Charles Richard Gonzales, last name
spelled G-O-N-Z-A-L-E-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Gonzales, how are you employed?
A. I'm employed as a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, and Firearms.
Q. How long have you been an ATF agent?
A. Over 26 years.
Q. Where were you assigned in April of 1995?
A. In Phoenix, Arizona.
Q. Now, on April 19, 1995, were you assigned to assist in
the -- assigned to assist in the investigation of the crime
scene in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Charles Gonzales - Direct
Q. When did you arrive in Oklahoma City?
A. Approximately the midafternoon of April 19.
Q. I want to direct your attention now to April 25, 1995.
Were you still assisting at that time in the investigation of
the crime scene in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where were you searching on April 25, 1995?
A. On top of the roof west of the main portion of the Murrah
Building. This was called the roof of the parking garage, and
it was approximately a two-story level of building at that
point.
Q. When you were searching on the roof of that area of the
Murrah Building on April 25, did you locate and recover any
plastic items?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you locate those items, and what did you do with
them?
A. On top of the roof, I gathered the items which were
plastic, pieces of plastic, and I placed them in a large
plastic bag, a clear bag.
Q. What I'd like you to do is -- sitting in front of you is a
can that's been marked Government's Exhibit 786D. If you could
open that, please.
And inside that can, if you could locate Government's
Exhibit 786, 786B, and 786C. And beginning first with Exhibit
Charles Gonzales - Direct
786 and 786B, can you identify those items for us, please.
A. Yes, sir, I can. These are pieces of plastic that I picked
up on top of that roof on April 25.
Q. And when you say the "pieces of the plastic" -- are the
items contained within 786 and 786B?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how do you recognize those as the plastic that you
recovered on April 25?
A. Exhibit No. 786 is a piece that I remember as being unique,
and it appeared to have what appeared to me as threading on it.
Q. Okay. Turning then to the items in 786B, how do you
recognize those specific items of plastic as the ones that you
recovered?
A. There is a piece of plastic in 786B that looks a little bit
different from the other pieces I collected. It's not -- it
doesn't appear to be the same type of plastic, but I placed it
in this bag with all the other pieces that I collected.
Q. Now, when you say you placed it in the bag, are you
referring to Government's Exhibit 786C?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you recognize that as the original bag into which
you put the plastic that you found on April 25?
A. The printing on here with the black ink marker is what I
printed on this bag.
Q. And what did you write on that bag, 786C?
Charles Gonzales - Direct
A. "Item: Plastic debris. Location: Alfred P. Murrah
Federal Building, west rooftop of parking garage and west
plaza. Found by Special Agent Charles R. Gonzales, ATF,
Phoenix. Time: April 25, 1995, 1435 hours."
Q. And after you put the plastic that you recovered on the
roof of the Murrah Building into that plastic bag, 786C, what
did you do with it?
A. I turned this over to the custody of FBI Special Agent
Patrick Daly.
Q. And who was he in relation to you on that day?
A. He was my team leader.
Q. And the plastic that you recovered and put into 786C: Did
you recover it simply because it was white plastic?
A. No, sir. I collected it because it was there. That was --
this plastic was essentially all that was on top of that roof.
Q. So if there were blue plastic items in similar shapes or
appearance, you would have collected that as well?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, may the agent step down and
approach the model?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Agent Gonzales, if you would step down and indicate in
relation to the model, Government's Exhibit 642, where it is --
describe where it is that you located those plastic items.
Charles Gonzales - Direct
A. The plastic items were located above this sticker that says
"Murrah west side." And it's towards the front of the roof
near the street, which would have been N.W. 5th.
Q. So it's located on that roof closer to the street N.W. 5th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the building that you're referring to is a two-story
structure located just to the west of the main Murrah Federal
Building?
A. That's correct.
MR. MEARNS: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, sir.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help out Terry Nichols.
When did you arrive -- you said you arrived in
Oklahoma City -- excuse me -- on the 19th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then where did you receive -- or when did you receive
your assignment about what role you were to have in this search
effort?
A. Early the next morning.
Q. Was that at a meeting presided over by Special Agents Hahn
Charles Gonzales - Cross
and Williams?
A. I'm not sure. I don't recall the name of the special
agents, sir. It was a group of agents, all the agents who were
assigned to the scene to do the investigation.
Q. And that -- but that was where you received your
assignment. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the -- when you did -- were doing your first searches,
did you use the same search-labeling technique as you used in
the later searches?
A. I didn't label anything, sir.
Q. Did you use the same labeling technique for your recovery
envelopes and so on that you used later on?
A. No, sir, because I didn't recover any -- I recovered
some -- some items, but I did not use the -- I didn't do the
labeling.
Q. Now, let me understand the procedure. You would recover an
item -- correct -- and then it would go to Special Agent Daly,
the team leader?
A. Yes.
Q. How did that work? Tell me how it worked. I'm not
understanding.
A. Well, initially we were assigned to conduct the scene
search in the city blocks northwest of the Murrah Building.
Q. That was Grid 1. Correct?
Charles Gonzales - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
A. And whatever items we picked up in a certain quadrant of a
certain block, we would turn over to the FBI special agent who
was in charge of those number of -- particular agents assigned
to that area.
Q. Okay. And they would do the labeling; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, for the search that you're telling us about today,
that was conducted on what date, sir?
A. April 25, 1995.
Q. Okay. The 25th. So that would be on a Tuesday?
A. I don't know what day of the week it was.
Q. Okay. If the 19th -- well, it's six days after the
bombing; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did you have a photographer with you that day as a
part of the search team?
A. Which day, sir?
Q. On the 25th.
A. Do you mean on the roof?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, on the roof -- by "the roof," you're referring to this
here?
Charles Gonzales - Cross
A. Yes, sir, towards the street.
Q. Towards the street on the west side. Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, before the 25th, had you been attending the briefing
meetings that were held in the mornings?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you attend all of them?
A. I attended a briefing meeting each morning.
Q. And did you then attend a meeting in the afternoon at which
people would discuss what they had done during the day?
A. I don't recall doing that.
Q. At the briefing meetings in the morning, anytime prior to
the 25th, was there some discussion of plastic?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Now, you told us that the -- the plastic that you found
there was white. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. It's white and it's other colors, also.
Q. All right. And you found what other -- what other colors
are there in there?
A. Well, some of this plastic is -- appears to be charred
black and gray.
Q. All right. Is there some blue plastic in there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you find some blue plastic that day?
A. I don't recall if I did or not.
Charles Gonzales - Cross
Q. Okay. I'm going to show you -- a computer printout that's
been provided to us, sir. And just -- you see your name there?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you found blue
plastic?
A. Yes, sir. It says there was deformed blue, black, and
white plastic.
Q. With that, does that refresh your recollection that you
found blue and black and white plastic? Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some of the plastic you found was charred? Is that
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some of the plastic was not; correct?
A. Correct.
MR. TIGAR: No further questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. MEARNS: I don't, your Honor. He may be excused.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'd re-call Mr. Daly for the
limited purposes of Mr. Gonzales' testimony.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. WILKINSON: You can leave all that up there.
THE COURT: Leave it.
If you'll resume the stand again, Agent Daly.
(Patrick Daly was re-called.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Welcome back, Agent Daly.
A. Thank you.
Q. In front of you, do you see Government's Exhibit 786D?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recognize Government's Exhibit 786D?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Were you working at the crime scene on April 25, 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And do you recall receiving some evidence from Agent
Gonzales?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What type of evidence did you receive from him?
A. Pieces of plastic, shredded plastic.
Q. Do you recall how he was carrying those pieces of plastic?
A. They were packaged in a clear plastic bag.
Q. Do you see that before you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that Government's Exhibit 786C?
A. Yes, it is.
Patrick Daly - Direct
Q. How do you recognize that bag?
A. I recognize it by the writing on it to include my initials
and date.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's
Exhibit 786C, the plastic bag.
MR. TIGAR: May I look at that, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Agent, who put the 1B-142 sticker on there?
A. I'm not sure who did that. I believe it was done at our
Evidence Control Center. I didn't do it.
Q. And the Evidence Control Center is