The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Tuesday, December 2, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 102)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:32 p.m., on the 2d day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, SEAN CONNELLY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY
MEARNS, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
REID NEUREITER, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite
1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:32 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
All right.
(Jury in at 1:32 p.m.)
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. David D'Albini.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. WOODS: Mr. Neureiter will question him.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(David D'Albini affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: David Frederick D'Albini. D apostrophe
A-L-B-I-N-I.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Hello, Mr. D'Albini. My name is Reid Neureiter. We've met
once before; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Where do you live, Mr. D'Albini?
A. Bigfork, Montana.
Q. Before Montana, where did you live?
A. Junction City, Kansas.
Q. Are you presently in the restaurant business?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you in the restaurant business in April of 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Where were you living in April of 1995?
A. Junction City, Kansas.
Q. Were you the manager of the McDonald's in Junction City,
Kansas?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did your family own and operate two McDonald's in Junction
David D'Albini - Direct
City?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. What was the location?
A. The 6th Street and what we call the I-70 McDonald's.
Q. But you were the manager of the I-70 McDonald's; is that
right?
A. Right.
Q. I'm going to show you a picture that has been previously
admitted into evidence, Defense D1733. You can look down on
that screen in front of you. Tell me if you recognize that.
A. Yes, that's the I-70 McDonald's.
Q. Is that the McDonald's where you were the general manager
in April of 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Is that McDonald's equipped with some kind of security
system?
A. Yes, it has video monitors.
Q. Tell us a little bit about those monitors. How many
cameras, how many monitors?
A. There were seven video cameras placed around the store and
fed into one video recorder.
Q. Was there a camera that would capture the image of a
customer leaving the store through the front door?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a camera that would focus on the front counter
David D'Albini - Direct
area?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. I'm going to show you an exhibit, D1734, that has not been
previously admitted, ask you if you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is that?
A. That's the interior of the McDonald's showing part of the
dining room area.
Q. Does that truly and accurately reflect what the interior of
the I-70 McDonald's looked like in April of 1995?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. NEUREITER: Move to admit, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: No objection.
THE COURT: D1734 admitted.
MR. NEUREITER: Move to publish.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Now, does this photograph show some of those video cameras
that you were telling us about earlier?
A. Yes, there are two of them there.
Q. I'm going to put some pins on this exhibit. One's a red
one, the one on the left, and one's a black one. Can you tell
me what the pin on the left, the red one, is pointing toward?
A. The red one points towards the back of the dining room
area, towards the bathrooms.
David D'Albini - Direct
Q. And is there -- let me zoom in.
Is it pointing to a specific thing on that zoom-in
there, that pen? Is that pointing to a camera?
A. Yes, that's pointing to the camera that goes to the back of
the dining room area.
Q. And that shows the back dining room area the way it appears
on the video monitor?
A. Right.
Q. And what does that camera capture when it sends the image
to the video monitor?
A. That shows the front counter area, including the front door
and the drive-through area.
Q. Okay. Explain in a little bit more detail for the jury,
please, how the images are collected and recorded on your video
monitor through these seven cameras that are located in your
store.
A. Okay. Each camera has -- both turn off for 5 seconds in
its area, and it's preset series so it's always going to come
back around to the same camera within 35 seconds. A
five-second shot, then it goes to the next shot, the next
camera, and then the next camera and so on.
Q. And are the images that are taken -- are they smoothly
flowing images that are taken on those video machines?
A. No, it's a still shot. You get about 12 shots, I think,
per camera on . . . 12 still shots and then it will move to the
David D'Albini - Direct
next one. You get 12 still shots. That enables us to conserve
the film in the recorder.
Q. So it's a stop-motion process?
A. Right.
Q. And that way you can have just one videotape and see an
entire 24-hour period; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Tell us a little bit about the process by which you
maintain these videotapes for security purposes in your store.
A. We have 31 tapes. Each one's numbered for the day of the
month. In the morning, the morning manager would come in,
switch out the tape, and put the corresponding date into the
machine, start it, and it would go until the next day.
Q. So there are 31 tapes. Each one's numbered one, two,
three, all the way through?
A. One through 31.
Q. And if it's the 15th day of the month, which tape would be
in the machine?
A. It would be the 15th.
Q. Were you involved in doing that process of taking out the
tape and putting it -- replacing it with the next one?
A. I usually checked the managers periodically to make sure
they're using the right tapes throughout the month.
Q. All right. Now, were there -- how many monitors -- in
other words, how many video screens were there in the store on
David D'Albini - Direct
which you could see the images that were being captured by
these cameras?
A. Just the one.
Q. Just one?
A. Just one for the inside, yes.
Q. Would the image that was being projected cycle through
those seven cameras?
A. Right.
Q. Would everything that would appear on that screen then be
recorded on the tape that was in the security --
A. Yes, it would.
Q. Was there a time and date that appeared on that monitor?
A. Yes. It showed the date of the year -- month, day, year --
and also showed the time.
Q. How do you know that those dates and times were accurate?
A. I was the one responsible for setting the clock, Daylight
Savings and back to standard. And also I used that basically
as my timepiece a lot of times when I was back in the office.
Q. Now, let's go back to the April of 1995 time period.
Did there come a time after the bombing in Oklahoma
City when you were contacted by the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. And did they ask you whether your restaurant maintained
security tapes?
A. They either asked or we volunteered the information, yeah.
David D'Albini - Direct
Q. And did you provide a number of tapes to the FBI at that
time?
A. We provided about a week's worth.
Q. And do you remember what dates those were that you provided
to them?
A. Somewhere around the 14th or 15th on into 21st, 22d. I
couldn't tell exactly what the dates were.
Q. Did you turn over the date -- the tape of April 17, 1995?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And if you were to play that tape here in court, would you
be able to -- not you -- would a normal person that is
unfamiliar with those tapes be able to understand what they
were seeing or identify any images if it were played at normal
speed?
A. At normal speed, probably not, because it would move quite
fast.
Q. Would it move -- would the images -- would the stop motion
be playing so fast that it would appear as if --
A. It would look as if everybody was running.
Q. Did someone slow that tape down for you of April 17 and
have you reviewed the slowed-down version of the tape?
A. Yes.
Q. And to your knowledge, were actual photographs printed --
images printed on sheets of paper from that particular day,
April 17?
David D'Albini - Direct
A. Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: If I may approach, your Honor, I would
like to show the defendant -- the defendant -- the witness two
exhibits.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. I've just handed you two sets of photographs. The first is
labeled Defense Exhibit D1735, and that should be a series of
seven photographs. If you could flip through those and tell me
if you recognize those photographs.
A. Yeah, they're the same set of photos I had seen before.
Q. And do those photographs come from the surveillance tape
provided to the FBI by you on April 17, 1995?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And how do you know that?
A. I've reviewed the tape and also reviewed the same
photographs before.
Q. And does the time/date stamp that you maintain on that
videotape --
A. Yes, it is.
Q. -- appear in those photographs?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. NEUREITER: Move the admission of D1735.
THE COURT: Received, and they're seven photos.
MR. NEUREITER: There are seven, and they're
David D'Albini - Direct
distinguished, your Honor, by the time.
THE COURT: Timing.
MR. NEUREITER: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. I'd like you to look at the second set -- it should be
labeled D1736 -- and tell me if you recognize those.
A. Yes.
Q. What are those?
A. These are the same pictures that I had seen from the
videotape prior.
Q. So are those also photographs taken from that same
videotape --
A. Right.
Q. -- April 17, 1995?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And that tape was provided to the FBI, and now those images
you know came from that videotape?
A. Right.
Q. And just to clarify, are -- those two sets of photographs,
do those come from different cameras within your store?
A. Yes, they do.
MR. NEUREITER: If I could collect those.
I would move the admission of the second set, 1736.
MR. MACKEY: No objection.
David D'Albini - Direct
THE COURT: D1736 received.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Now, Mr. D'Albini, we're just going to go through this
first set and have you describe what we see. This is D1735.
This is -- tell us what you see in this photograph.
A. This is our front counter area, customer area. And you'll
see the drive-through through the back.
Q. And do you recognize some of the employees in that
photograph?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And -- use the pen. Is this the time-and-date stamp that
we were talking about earlier?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And although there's a scratch through that, can you make
out the date?
A. 4-17-95.
Q. And the time?
A. 3:49:01.
Q. All right. And what is that?
A. That's a customer appearing to give money -- getting money
out of his wallet.
Q. And can you say anything about what the customer is wearing
from this image?
A. Dark shirt and a light -- light blue jeans.
Q. Does it appear that there's sort of a triangle of a
David D'Albini - Direct
T-shirt?
A. Yes, it looks like he's got a T-shirt underneath his neck.
Q. Move to the next image.
And again, this is the first set, D1735. Can you read
the time down in the lower right-hand corner?
A. 3:49:02.
Q. And do you still see the image of that customer up there?
A. Yes. He's still looking for money.
Q. All right. Next image. Can you read the time, please.
A. Yeah. It's 3:49:03.
Q. Is the customer still there?
A. Yes.
Q. Next image. Time, please.
A. 3:49:04.
Q. And is the customer still there?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. And it's a little hard to read. Can you read the time on
this one?
A. 3:49:05.
Q. And --
A. Customer's still there.
Q. If we zoom in a lot, can you tell anything about the
customer's haircut in that picture? If you can't, that's okay.
A. Not really. Not in the focus it's in right there.
Q. All right. Next image. What is the time, please.
David D'Albini - Direct
A. 3:49:06.
Q. And do you see the customer's still there?
A. Yes, he's still there.
Q. And this is the final image of that set. Can you make out
the time?
A. 3:49:07.
Q. And is the customer still there?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have reviewed the entire videotape; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Does the customer appear -- that particular customer appear
in any other images near the front counter?
A. No. Not at the front counter.
Q. And does it actually show him getting any products
anywhere?
A. No.
Q. And why is that?
A. Whatever he purchased was quick enough before the 35
seconds came back around to that camera, he'd already sat down
or left.
Q. In other words, the cycling process --
A. Right.
Q. -- missed some of the things he must have done, not
necessarily buying things, but coming in and going out?
David D'Albini - Direct
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Let's switch to the next set. This is D1736. It's
the first image.
And can you read the time, please.
A. 3:57:06.
Q. And how much later than the last set was that?
A. It's about 8 minutes.
Q. About 8 minutes afterwards?
A. Right.
Q. And between that first set and this last set, are there any
other images from that videotape that capture the individual
with the darker shirt with the white undershirt?
A. No.
Q. And where is -- based on your knowledge of the restaurant,
where is the customer coming from?
A. That's the back dining room area, right in the back corner.
Q. Okay. Is there a door back there?
A. No, none leading outside.
Q. To your knowledge, must the customer have been at a table,
if he's coming back from that area?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now look at the next image. Can you read the
time, please.
A. 3:57:06.
Q. And does that capture the same -- is that from the same
David D'Albini - Direct
camera and show the same view?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And has the customer advanced a couple of feet in that
photograph?
A. Yes, he has.
Q. Try and move quickly here. Next image?
A. 3:57:07.
Q. Same customer?
A. Same customer.
Q. Anybody else in that picture?
A. You can see a gentleman sitting down right in the corner,
eating. Right there, yeah.
Q. Okay. Next image.
A. It's 3:57:07.
Q. And why is it that it's the same time as the previous one?
A. The way that camera's set up, a lot of times it will
capture two images on the beginning of the second, and on the
end of the second it will still show the same time.
Q. So the two shots were within one-second time period?
A. Right. Right.
Q. And you still see the customer?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is the time on this?
A. 3:57:08.
Q. Does the customer appear to you to be doing anything in
David D'Albini - Direct
this picture?
A. He's walking forward and appear to be looking down a little
bit.
Q. All right. Go to the next image. All right. What is the
time on this picture?
A. 3:57:08.
Q. By the way, how accurate is that time that's set there? Do
you set it by your own watch, or do you call --
A. I usually set it by time and temperature. And it could be
plus or minus 2 minutes, within that -- within the next six
months.
Q. So it could have been -- by the atomic clock in Washington
or wherever they set that time and temperature, it could have
been 3:59, pretty darn close to 4:00?
A. Or 3:55, yeah.
Q. Okay. And last time on the last image, you said he was
looking down. What does he appear to be doing in this
photograph?
A. Looks like he's looking at his watch.
Q. Checking out what time it is; right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Right before 4:00, on April the 17th --
A. Yes.
Q. -- he's checking his watch?
A. Right.
David D'Albini - Direct
Q. Next image. Zoom out.
All right. Could you read the time there, please.
A. 3:57:09.
Q. And the same customer was in that picture?
A. Same customer.
Q. Next image.
A. 3:57:09.
Q. But that's different from the one we just saw?
A. Right.
Q. He appears to have proceeded a little bit further. Is
there an exit out in this direction, by the way?
A. You'll have to walk -- he'd have to walk forward a little
bit. Then he's got his choice of going either right or left.
Q. And that's where the exit of the store is?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. The next image, could you read that?
A. 3:57:10.
Q. Can you tell anything about his haircut in this picture?
A. Yeah, it's a crew cut, looks like.
Q. Military style?
A. Military style.
Q. Next image?
A. 3:57:10.
Q. And he's advanced a little further?
A. Yes.
David D'Albini - Direct
Q. The next image?
A. 3:57:11.
Q. Here's the second-to-last one.
A. 3:57:12.
Q. Just zoom in.
And the last image, if you could read that.
A. 3:57:12.
Q. And he has -- from the picture, appears to have totally
left the screen?
A. Yes.
Q. And you reviewed the entire videotape on that day; is that
correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you observe any other images that appear to be this
customer on that day?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did the FBI have you review the videotape for the next day
as well?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did the customer appear -- this particular customer with
the crew cut and these clothes, did he seem to appear on that
next videotape?
A. Not that I could see.
MR. NEUREITER: One moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: Pass the witness, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may inquire, Mr. Mackey.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. D'Albini. How are you?
A. Fine.
Q. On Easter Sunday, April 16, 1995, what were your hours of
operation?
A. From 6 in the morning to 11 at night.
Q. And on the next day, Monday, April 17?
A. 6 in the morning till 11 at night.
Q. And how about Tuesday, the 18th?
A. 6 to 11.
Q. All right. And the videotape that you reviewed of Monday,
April 17, you told members of the jury that you reviewed it
from start to finish?
A. Yes.
Q. And the only frames that captured the image of the person
that we displayed to this jury were the ones we've shown here
by way of photograph; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. By my calculations, the first frame had a time stamp of
3:49:01 --
A. Right.
Q. -- that is when that individual first walked in the door,
David D'Albini - Cross
at least was captured?
A. Right.
Q. And the last one was 3:57:12?
A. Right.
Q. As his head left the viewing area. Do you recall that?
A. Yep.
Q. Is that about a little more than 8 minutes, total time?
A. Yeah, right about there.
Q. Based on viewing the video, looking at these photographs a
number of times, did you see any evidence that that single
individual was ever with anyone?
A. No, didn't appear to be.
Q. Never a single shot of him in conversation with someone
else?
A. No.
Q. Never a single shot of him eating a meal with anyone else?
A. No.
Q. Always by himself?
A. Right.
Q. Let me hand you at this time what I've marked as Government
Exhibit 2080.
Do you recognize that video as coming from your store,
representing the security-surveillance-camera footage for the
next day, Tuesday, April 18, 1995?
A. Yes, I do.
David D'Albini - Cross
Q. And prior to coming to court, did you view that video from
start to finish?
A. I reviewed it from about 6 in the morning till a little
after 4.
Q. Before doing so, Mr. D'Albini, had you had several
opportunities to look at the set of photographs that have been
admitted here earlier?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. And the individual depicted therein. Had you also seen a
photograph marked Government Exhibit 318, a picture of Timothy
McVeigh? And I'll show that to you at this time.
I'll hand it to you.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you have that photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. And without the details necessarily so, Mr. D'Albini,
you've in fact met Mr. McVeigh or at least seen him in person,
have you not, before today?
A. I've seen him in person, yes.
Q. Based on the photographs you had, your familiarity with the
various photographs you've identified here in court and the
previous encounter with Mr. McVeigh, did you see Tim McVeigh
anywhere on the video footage that's reviewed for Tuesday,
April 18?
A. No, I did not.
David D'Albini - Cross
Q. Did you study the segments around the time period near 7:30
in the morning?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you see any sign of Tim McVeigh in your McDonald's
restaurant at 7:30 on Tuesday, April 18?
A. Not that I could tell, no.
Q. Did you study the segments around 2:00 or shortly after
2 p.m. on that same day, Tuesday, April 18?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you find any sign that Tim McVeigh was in your
McDonald's on Tuesday afternoon, April 18?
A. Not that I could tell.
MR. MACKEY: I have nothing else.
THE COURT: Any follow-up.
MR. NEUREITER: Yes, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Mr. D'Albini, you had explained to us earlier the cycling
process. And in the photographs that we reviewed earlier,
there was an 8-minute span between which Mr. McVeigh did not
appear; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. How long does it take, if somebody comes into your store,
to buy an apple pie?
A. To buy an apple pie, it would probably be less than 30
David D'Albini - Redirect
seconds.
Q. And the cycling process that you talked about earlier goes
through 35 -- every camera in 35 seconds goes all the way
around?
A. Right.
Q. Based on the photographs you saw here before,
Mr. McVeigh -- was Mr. McVeigh necessarily in your restaurant
during the 7-minute time period when he's first captured and
when he's last captured?
A. It would appear to be, yeah.
Q. But during that 7-minute period, he doesn't appear on any
of your video surveillance; correct?
A. Right.
Q. So somebody could have bought a lot of pies during that
7-minute time period without appearing on your surveillance
equipment?
MR. MACKEY: Objection to form.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Could someone have made a number of purchases at your store
without appearing -- could someone have made a purchase at your
store without appearing on your video camera?
A. Possibility.
MR. NEUREITER: No further questions.
MR. MACKEY: None from me.
THE COURT: Are you excusing this witness?
MR. NEUREITER: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Hilda Sostre.
Mr. Thurschwell will question.
THE COURT: Thank you.
You have a communication problem here with the
witness.
MR. WOODS: Okay.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: We have no Miss Sostre.
THE COURT: S-O-S-T-R-E it is?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Yes.
MR. WOODS: We would call the next witness, then,
Renda Truong, and Mr. Neureiter will question.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: Apologize to the Court. She was here this
morning, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Well, this happens.
We'll go back to Miss Sostre.
MR. WOODS: It looks like her right there.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Hilda Sostre affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Hilda L. Sostre, S-O-S-T-R-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Thurschwell.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Mrs. Sostre?
A. Yes.
Q. How are you?
A. Fine.
Q. Good. Where do you live, Mrs. Sostre?
A. Topeka, Kansas.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have children?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. Three.
Q. Three? And are you working currently?
A. I just started working.
Hilda Sostre - Direct
Q. Where are you working now?
A. I'm working with the school district.
Q. Let me take you back to April, 1995. Were you working
then?
A. Yes.
Q. And where were you working then?
A. Dreamland Motel.
Q. Sorry?
A. Dreamland Motel.
Q. Dreamland Motel, okay. Let me be more specific and direct
your attention to April 17, 1995. Monday, April 17. Were you
working on that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Do you recall what time you arrived at work?
A. In the morning. 8:30. 8 to 8:30.
Q. 8 to 8:30?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you drive?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have a usual place to park?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did. Did you park there that day?
A. No.
Q. And why not?
A. Because there was a truck, Ryder.
Hilda Sostre - Direct
Q. What kind of truck was it?
A. Ryder.
Q. A Ryder truck? I'm going to show you what's been
previously admitted as Government Exhibit 283 and ask you if
you recognize this aerial view.
A. This is the Dreamland Motel.
Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to zoom in and ask you if you would,
take the pen that's on your desk there and underneath the desk,
on the screen, if you would mark where the Ryder truck was
parked that day.
A. I have to go under?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Actually right underneath on the screen, yes.
A. Okay. It was parked in here.
Q. Okay. Good. All right. And where did you park that day?
A. Well, most -- well, most -- always when I come to work, I
park in this area.
Q. Okay. And where did you park that day?
A. That day, I had to park in this, in this area.
Q. Okay. Now, using that pen, could you show the jury and
trace your steps immediately after you got out of the car that
morning, if you recall.
A. When I -- when I get there and I park, I get out of the
car, and I saw a man walking --
Hilda Sostre - Direct
Q. Well, before we get to the man --
A. Okay.
Q. -- can you just draw -- trace where you went that morning,
first, yourself.
A. How do I do that?
Q. Do you recall -- where did you go after you got out of your
car?
A. I just get off of my car, and I supposed to go through this
door.
Q. Okay. And did you go straight to that door?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, did you notice anyone else in the parking lot?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And who did you notice?
A. It was a man walking.
Q. Okay. Now, can you -- about how far away from you was he
when you first noticed him?
A. 15 to 20 feet.
Q. Okay. Can you draw on this -- the photograph again -- or
the screen I should say -- about where you saw him when you
first noticed him?
A. He was walking like this.
Q. Okay. Now, can you trace the path that you saw this
individual take that morning?
A. Okay. When I -- when I get off from the car, I was walking
Hilda Sostre - Direct
like this, and he was walking. When he get to this point, I
look at him.
Q. Okay.
A. And he just continue walking to the truck. And I just
continue to there, to the room.
Q. Did you see him get into the truck?
A. I see him close to the door.
Q. Close?
A. Yeah, when he get into -- getting to the door.
Q. Could you see whether he was carrying anything?
A. He was carrying nothing. Something in his -- he got one of
the hand, you know, closed, but nothing like -- nothing else.
Q. Nothing that you could see?
A. No.
Q. Now, can you describe, to your best ability, the appearance
of this person?
A. He was medium. Build --
Q. Well, let me be more -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
A. Build, good build. He got black hair. He got -- how I say
it -- shape nose, you know.
Q. Long?
A. Yeah, long.
Q. Did you notice his skin color?
A. It's like -- like my skin.
Q. Okay. Is that light, dark? How would you characterize it?
Hilda Sostre - Direct
A. It is a brown-like.
Q. Brown-like?
A. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Q. Could you tell his ethnicity from where you were standing?
What nationality --
A. Oh, okay. When I look at him, that's why I, Gosh, maybe I
thought he was Spanish. And I look at him and I thought he was
coming to town with going out, you know, for Ryder or whatever,
you know. And I just --
Q. He caught your eye?
A. Yeah.
Q. Were you eventually shown a sketch of a person by the FBI?
A. Do they show me?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, they show me a sketch.
Q. Okay. Did you recognize that sketch?
A. The first one they show me, I say no, because he wasn't.
Then the second one, second one or the third time, I don't --
you know, I don't remember, been so many. But then after the
first one I say no. Then the second one is when I say he look
more like the guy I saw.
Q. Okay. So there came a time when the FBI showed you a
sketch that resembled the individual that you saw in the
parking lot that day?
A. Yeah.
Hilda Sostre - Direct
Q. All right. Now, let me go back to what you were doing that
day. You said you first went to the laundry room. What do you
do in the laundry room?
A. In the laundry room, in the morning I will check if there
is clothes to wash, and then I fold whatever I have there for
shower, in the dryer. Then I do the dry. And after that, then
I call Lea McGown to --
Q. Let me just stop while you were in the laundry room. About
how long did you spend in the laundry room that morning, if you
recall?
A. That depend how many thing I have to do.
Q. Do you recall that day how long you were there?
A. 30 minute. I cannot.
Q. Okay. That's it. You don't remember exactly. What did
you do after you left the laundry room?
A. After I left the laundry room, then I ask Lea for the paper
to let me know what room I have to clean.
Q. Let me stop you. When you say you asked Lea, who are you
referring to?
A. The owner of the Dreamland Motel, Lea McGown.
Q. And where -- to return to the photograph that's still in
front of you, where did you go to speak to Mrs. McGown?
A. This is the office. Stay here. Inside. This is her
office.
Q. Okay. And is this the front door?
Hilda Sostre - Direct
A. This is the front door, yes, sir. And then this is inside.
Q. Okay. Now, you said you got a paper from Mrs. McGown?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, what is that paper?
A. That paper tell me, you know, how many room do I have that
day, who stay and who is gone.
Q. Okay. How many rooms -- which rooms you need to service
that day?
A. Hmm?
Q. Does it show you which rooms you need to service that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. That day, if you recall -- well, let me -- before I
ask you that, when you emerged from the laundry room, did you
notice whether the Ryder truck was still there?
A. No, he was gone.
Q. Okay. Now, let me come back. The paper that you
mentioned: Do you recall whether Room 25 was listed on the
paper for you to service that day?
A. He was listed because somebody in there.
Q. Okay. And did you in fact service Room 25?
A. I knock at the door.
Q. About what time was that?
A. Noon.
Q. Noon?
A. Yes, sir.
Hilda Sostre - Direct
Q. Tell me what -- before I ask you that, I'm showing you
what's been previously admitted as Government Exhibit 318. And
if you click your pen, I think you can get rid of those marks.
A. No, no, don't worry about that. I can see it.
Q. Did you recognize this individual?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who is that person?
A. This is Timothy, Timothy.
Q. Is it someone you've since come to learn's name was Timothy
McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. When was the first time you saw this person?
A. I saw him in the Room 25.
Q. All right. And tell me what happened when you knocked on
the door.
A. When I knock on the door, nobody answer, and I figure out
nobody was there. And I was ready to go in, put the key on the
lock to open the door.
Q. And then what happened? Go ahead. Then what happened?
A. And I ask him if he need service, he needs towel.
He say no, he was okay.
And I say, "Okay. Have a good day." And I continue
walking, and that time he close the door.
And he open again and he go toward me and he say, "No,
I think I need some towel."
Hilda Sostre - Direct
And I told him, "For me to be able to give a towel,
you have to give me the used one."
And he say, "Okay," and he go back.
Q. And he came out and gave you the used towels and you
exchanged them for the new ones?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen this individual again?
A. No. On TV.
Q. On TV, but not in person?
A. No, no in person.
MR. THURSCHWELL: That's all I have.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mackey.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Miss Sostre, good afternoon. How are you?
A. Good afternoon.
Q. I have just a few questions of my own.
A. Okay.
Q. Let me return our attention to Government Exhibit 283, the
aerial photograph of the Dreamland.
A. Okay.
Q. Miss Sostre, and I listened to your testimony. My
understanding is that on Monday --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- morning, April 17, 1995, you saw what you described to
Hilda Sostre - Cross
the jury; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell the jury why you remember that day.
A. Because -- because that was my first day of working.
Q. Of the week?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there any other reason why you remember that day as the
day you saw a truck parked in your spot.
No other reason?
A. Because this is my -- where I park in all the time, and I
know --
Q. I understand.
A. -- you know, that I have to . . .
Q. Trucks around the Dreamland is a common sight, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know Mrs. McGown? You've worked for her as a maid
for a couple years?
A. Yes.
Q. If her testimony was that there were large moving vans or
trucks around the Dreamland on 20 to 60 occasions every year,
do you have any reason to doubt that?
A. Well, because I'm working weekdays, you know, maybe --
Q. Would you have any reason to doubt her estimate?
A. No, I not.
Q. Let me go back to Government Exhibit 23. On this
Hilda Sostre - Cross
particular Monday morning, as you recall, Miss Sostre, a
vehicle was parked in this area?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Forcing you to park where -- as this photo shows, there is
a truck -- correct -- pickup truck?
A. Yes.
Q. And as you got out of the vehicle, it's your testimony your
attention was drawn to the right as you were headed to the
laundry door?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you saw an individual that you've described to this
jury?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you stop and look at him?
A. No, sir.
Q. You continued walking?
A. I walk.
Q. I take it, then, the two of you had no conversation?
A. No, sir.
Q. Never got any closer than the distance that separates the
width of that entire office area; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he turn in your direction so that you had a frontal
view?
A. I saw the front and I saw him -- his side of his face.
Hilda Sostre - Cross
Q. Miss McGown -- excuse me. Miss Sostre, did the individual
climb into the truck? Did you see that happen?
A. No, I don't see him climb to the truck.
Q. Miss Sostre, you encountered Tim McVeigh on one occasion in
person; is that your testimony?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was that same morning when you discovered,
unbeknownst to you, that he was still in Room 25?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct? I take it, then, you had not seen him on
the previous Friday?
A. No, sir.
Q. And you didn't work the weekend in between?
A. No, sir.
Q. So this was the one and only occasion.
I take it as well, Miss Sostre, that you never saw the
individual that you noticed walking towards the truck ever in
the company of Tim McVeigh?
A. No.
Q. Never saw him at Room 25?
A. No.
Q. Even near Room 25?
A. No.
Q. Never in the company of Mr. McVeigh?
A. No.
Hilda Sostre - Cross
Q. When you did observe him, my understanding of your
testimony is he was coming from the opposite wing of the
Dreamland; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether the Dreamland houses lots of
construction workers and people who drive trucks?
A. Can you repeat that?
Q. In April of 1995, Miss Sostre, do you remember there being
some construction projects going on around the Dreamland, road
construction?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you find it common that there were construction
workers who stayed at your motel --
A. Yes.
Q. -- on --
A. Yes.
Q. -- several days? And those construction workers often
drove trucks; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Miss Sostre, I'm going to show you at this time an exhibit
that's not been admitted into evidence yet, and I want you to
look down into your screen to Government Exhibit 1629. You see
the composite sketch that now appears before you?
A. Yes.
Q. At any time in April of 1995, did you see that individual
Hilda Sostre - Cross
or anybody that looks like that individual at the Dreamland
Motel?
A. No, sir.
Q. Miss Sostre, when the FBI came out and showed you two
composite sketches, do you recall that?
A. I recall they show the pictures, but I don't recall when,
you know, it was in the first time or the second time, I
cannot; but they show me pictures.
Q. Miss Sostre, had you talked to Mrs. McGown about what you
had seen before you talked to the FBI?
A. Nothing at all.
Q. Do you recall, Miss Sostre, when you were first shown two
composites, that you recognized one as bearing some likeness to
Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. And the second composite, Miss Sostre, do you recall
telling the FBI, when first shown it -- let me finish.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- that you did not recognize that person?
A. I do not recall that.
MR. MACKEY: I have nothing else.
THE COURT: Any follow-up?
MR. THURSCHWELL: Briefly, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Hilda Sostre - Redirect
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Mrs. Sostre, you were asked whether you recall construction
workers who stayed at the Dreamland Motel in April of 1995.
A. Yes.
Q. And you -- your testimony was you do recall them driving
trucks.
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you recall any construction workers who drove rental
Ryder trucks?
A. That what I want to say before. No. They use truck, but
different type of truck.
Q. You were asked about FBI sketches that were shown to you
also; is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you were -- testified that there were one or two that
you did not recognize?
A. That's what I said.
Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Defense Exhibit
D780, not yet admitted.
Do you recognize this sketch?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this one of the sketches that was shown?
A. That's the one. The one I always say is --
MR. THURSCHWELL: Okay. Your Honor, we would move the
admission of D780.
Hilda Sostre - Redirect
MR. MACKEY: No objection.
THE COURT: D780 received.
MR. THURSCHWELL: And ask that it be published.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. What was your reaction when you were shown this exhibit?
A. Well, that's -- I agree that is the one that more look like
the person I saw walking toward the truck.
Q. This sketch looked like the person who you saw?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told the FBI that?
A. Yes.
MR. THURSCHWELL: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: Just a couple.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Miss Sostre, when you encountered this man walking towards
the truck on Monday, was he wearing a cap?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Let me show you what's been previously admitted into
evidence as D1731.
Do you recall, Miss Sostre, that this was the
composite sketch that was first shown to you by the FBI on
Hilda Sostre - Recross
April 23, 1995?
A. I don't recall. I don't know.
Q. You told Mr. Thurschwell earlier that when you saw the
composite sketch, it looked more like the guy that you had
seen? You remember using words to describe that?
A. In the photo that he just showed, yes, sir.
Q. All right. Neither of the sketches, the one that's being
shown to you now nor the one with the cap, in fact is identical
to your memory of the individual you saw; is that correct?
A. The one that you have in your hand.
Q. Your testimony is there's no differences between the person
depicted in D780 and your previous descriptions of the
individual you saw?
A. You lost me.
THE COURT: That's --
MR. MACKEY: I'll withdraw the question. No other
questions.
MR. THURSCHWELL: No other questions, your Honor.
She's excused.
THE COURT: You're excusing this witness, then, by
agreement?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're now excused.
Next, please.
MR. WOODS: At this time, we would call Renda Truong,
your Honor, and Mr. Neureiter will question her.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Renda Truong affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your name for the record and spell
your last name.
THE WITNESS: Renda Truong, T-R-U-O-N-G.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Hello, Miss Truong. How are you?
A. I'm fine. How are you?
Q. We met for the first time a couple days ago; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where do you live?
A. In Hawaii.
Q. In Hawaii?
A. Yeah.
Q. Came a long way. How old are you?
A. I'm 19.
Q. 19. Did you just graduate from high school last year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before Hawaii, where did you live?
Renda Truong - Direct
A. In Kansas.
Q. You're going to have to speak up a little more so the jury
can hear you. Just lean towards the microphone.
And say where you lived.
A. In Kansas.
Q. Did you live on the base at Fort Riley?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. 'Cause my mom's in the military.
Q. And is she in the military still today?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's why you moved to Hawaii?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know Lea McGown?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know Lea McGown?
A. She's my best friend's mom.
Q. And what's your best friend's name?
A. Kathleen McGown.
Q. Do you know the Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know the Dreamland Motel?
A. I used to live there.
Q. Did you live there during the April time period of 1995?
A. Yes.
Renda Truong - Direct
Q. Before you lived at the Dreamland, though, were you staying
with your dad for a while, too?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Were you helping him move?
A. Yeah, I was -- we were fixing the PCS, my family did.
Q. Let me show you what's been previously admitted as
Government Exhibit 287.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. That's the Dreamland Motel.
Q. I'll leave that up there for a minute.
I want to take you back to Easter Sunday, 1995. Do
you remember Easter, 1995?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where were you living on Easter Sunday, 1995?
A. I was still living at home with my dad.
Q. Is that with your dad?
A. On the base.
Q. Were you helping him pack?
A. Yeah. Actually I was helping -- I was helping clean
quarters.
Q. And then soon thereafter did you move to the Dreamland?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Tell me about Easter, 1995. Did you -- did you get
Renda Truong - Direct
together with the McGowns on that day?
A. Yes, I did. We -- I was helping my dad clean, and they had
came over and asked me to go out to eat with them for Easter
brunch. And they came by my house to pick me up.
Q. And where did you go to brunch; do you remember?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Was it O'Kelly's? Is there an Irish restaurant there in --
O'Grady's? The name escapes me, too.
A. I'm not sure.
Q. But they came to pick you up on Easter Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. For brunch. Was Eric with them?
A. No, he was not.
Q. Is Eric Kathleen's sister -- brother, excuse me?
A. Yeah, he is.
Q. But you went out with the McGowns, mother and daughter; is
that right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do after you ate?
A. We went back -- we went back to the motel.
Q. Did there come a time on that day when you went to the
motel?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And what did you see as you arrived back at the motel?
A. I seen cars and the Ryder truck.
Renda Truong - Direct
Q. You saw a Ryder truck on Easter Sunday, 1995, at the
Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where was the Ryder truck parked?
A. In front of the sign.
Q. In front of the sign. And when you say "the sign," did you
mean this sign?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And was it to the left of the sign as indicated on this
picture, or was it to the right of the sign?
A. It was parked right in front.
Q. Right on the other side of the sign?
A. In the middle. In the front of the office. It was parked
directly in front. In front of the sign.
Q. Okay. Can you describe the Ryder truck at all?
A. It was a big, yellow truck.
Q. Yellow, it was yellow?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know the difference between Ryder trucks and trucks
that construction workers might drive?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what's the difference?
A. Ryder truck is for moving, and the work trucks are just for
working.
Q. Ryder trucks are yellow?
Renda Truong - Direct
A. Yeah. The Ryder truck is yellow.
Q. Does it have the big word "Ryder" on the side?
A. Yeah, it does.
Q. And construction trucks don't have the "Ryder" on the side,
do they?
A. No, they do not.
Q. Did there come a time when the FBI showed you a brochure of
different-size Ryder trucks?
A. Yes. Couple days after the incident had happened.
Q. And were they interested in what kind of Ryder truck you
saw on that day, Easter Sunday, 1995?
MR. MACKEY: Objection to the question.
THE COURT: Sustained as to the form.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. They showed you a brochure?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. I'm going to show you something that's not in evidence yet.
It's marked D1737.
MR. NEUREITER: Have you seen this?
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Do you see that on your screen there?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the brochure that the FBI showed you?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And did they ask you to pick out the specific Ryder truck
Renda Truong - Direct
on that brochure as the one that you saw on Easter Sunday,
1995?
A. Yes, they did.
MR. NEUREITER: Move to admit D1737, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. D1737 may be shown.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. There are four Ryder trucks on this brochure; right?
And we're going to go from the top to the bottom. And
I'm going to ask you: Was it this one?
A. No.
Q. Was it this one?
A. No.
Q. Was it this one?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it this one?
A. No.
Q. You're indicating that the truck you saw on Easter Sunday,
1995, at the Dreamland Motel was what's indicated here as the
three-bedroom Ryder truck; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And do you see that that has a cargo door on the
side?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Does it have an overhang over the cab?
Renda Truong - Direct
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember?
A. No.
Q. The one that you saw, you don't remember?
A. No.
Q. But --
A. This one doesn't.
Q. This one doesn't?
A. No.
Q. Is that the one that you picked out for the FBI on that
date?
A. Yes, this is the one.
MR. NEUREITER: One moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Do you remember what day it was that the FBI talked to you?
A. No, I don't recall.
Q. If I showed you a report of interview that they did, do you
think that would help you refresh your recollection as to what
date it was that they talked to you?
A. Yes, it would.
Q. Okay. And to put your time, on Easter Sunday was the 16th,
the bombing was the 19th. Let me show you this document.
A. It was on the 23d?
Q. Does that help you refresh your recollection that it was
Renda Truong - Direct
the 23d that they talked to you?
A. You know, I don't really remember. I mean the report says
23d, but --
Q. But you don't remember?
A. No.
Q. Was it within a week of the bombing?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Just a few days after the bombing that they talked to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And your recollection at that time was pretty fresh; right?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Sustained as to the objection.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Was your recollection when the FBI talked to you in 1995
fresh as to what you had seen on Easter Sunday?
MR. MACKEY: Same objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. NEUREITER: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mackey.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Miss Truong, how are you this afternoon?
A. I'm fine.
Q. How long did it take for you to fly from Hawaii to Denver?
Renda Truong - Cross
A. A day.
Q. And how many total minutes did you see the Ryder truck in
front of the Dreamland?
A. I don't remember. We were parked there for a while.
Q. Do you recall what time Easter Sunday you came back to the
Dreamland?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember whether it was morning or afternoon?
A. It was afternoon. It was in the afternoon.
Q. And when you arrived back at the Dreamland, what did you
do?
A. We were going to pick up Eric to -- before we went back to
my house. And I had saw the truck, and I had asked Miss McGown
if -- if someone was moving. And she said she didn't know.
Q. Miss Truong, did you get out of the car?
A. No, I did not.
Q. How close did the car come to the Ryder truck that you saw?
A. Very close. We were parked right in front of the office.
Q. Where were you seated in the car?
A. I was on the driver's side in the back seat.
Q. And how long did you wait for Eric?
A. Not very long. 10, 15 minutes, maybe.
Q. Miss Truong, have you ever driven a Ryder truck?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Have you ever ridden in one?
Renda Truong - Cross
A. Yes, I have.
Q. On how many occasions?
A. On once.
Q. And how many occasions prior to April 16, 1995?
A. Like seven, eight months ago, before.
Q. Miss Truong, have you ever met Tim McVeigh?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. I take it your testimony is you never saw him near that
Ryder truck on Easter Sunday?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you remember when you were first interviewed by the FBI,
they showed you two composites?
A. Yes.
Q. Artist's sketches?
A. Yes.
Q. You looked at each of those two artist's sketches?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you remember telling the FBI you didn't recognize either
one of those as somebody you knew?
A. Yes, I remember.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. NEUREITER: Yes, just one.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Renda Truong - Redirect
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Miss Truong, were you in school April, 1995?
A. I don't remember. You mean the day?
Q. Did you have school the day after Easter, April, 1995?
A. Oh. Yeah, I did.
Q. So you didn't go to lunch with the McGowns on Monday, April
17, 1995, did you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. It was Easter Sunday that you were there and you saw the
Ryder truck; right?
A. Uh-huh.
MR. NEUREITER: No further questions. And thank you
very much for coming.
THE COURT: Excusing her?
MR. NEUREITER: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Herta King, and
Mr. Neureiter will question her.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Herta King affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Herta Maria Magdalena King, K-I-N-G.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Miss King, how are you?
We met for the first time a couple nights ago; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. How old are you?
A. 57.
Q. Where are you from?
A. Port Charlotte, Florida.
Q. Where did you live in April, 1995?
A. In Junction City, Kansas.
Q. Do you have children?
A. Yes, I have two sons.
Q. What are their names?
A. David and Edward.
Q. Where was David living in April, 1995?
A. He lived in the Dreamland Motel.
Q. Do you know Lea McGown?
A. She's my best friend.
Q. Do you and she share a common heritage?
A. Yes; we're German.
Q. I want you to think -- I'd like to ask you to think back to
April of 1995 and the Easter time period. Did you do something
Herta King - Direct
special for your son on Easter, 1995?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. I went to the Dreamland Motel and brought him an Easter
basket.
Q. Okay. Let me show you a picture which is previously
admitted, Government Exhibit 287. Can you tell me what that
is.
A. That's the Dreamland Motel.
Q. And do you remember where your son was staying at the
Dreamland?
A. In room -- excuse me -- Room 25. Right next to the office.
Q. Was it Room 25 or was it Room 23?
A. Oh, 20 -- I think it was 24.
Q. 24.
A. Right next to the Coke machine.
Q. It was in the 20's?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was close to the office?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So you drove to the Dreamland on Easter Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. And you're bringing your son a Easter basket?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. As you arrived in the parking lot, what did you notice at
Herta King - Direct
the Dreamland on Easter Sunday, 1995?
A. I noticed a Ryder truck being parked right next to the
sign.
Q. And why did you notice that Ryder truck?
A. Because it was blocking the view to my son's car.
Q. And do you remember what your -- your son was driving at
that time period?
A. He was driving an old, green, American car.
Q. And you don't recognize American cars, do you?
A. No. I working -- I've been working with foreign cars for
24 years. I don't know any American cars. I'm sorry.
Q. But you remember your son was driving an old, American car?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you look for it as you approached the Dreamland --
A. Yes.
Q. -- in the parking lot that day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you couldn't see it?
A. I couldn't see it.
Q. Why not?
A. Because the view was blocked by the Ryder truck.
Q. Was it a small truck, or a big truck?
A. It was a medium-sized truck.
Q. Medium-sized truck.
Do you know the difference between trucks construction
Herta King - Direct
workers drive and Ryder trucks?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What's the difference?
A. A Ryder truck is much bigger, and it's yellow and has
"Ryder" --
Q. Construction trucks don't have "Ryder" on the side, do
they?
A. No.
Q. Have you been shown a brochure that has different Ryder
trucks on it?
A. The only thing I saw is the piece of paper that you showed
me with Ryder trucks.
Q. I'm going to show you previously admitted Exhibit 1737.
And if we count down one, two, three, four, which Ryder truck
was it that you saw on Easter Sunday, April, 1995?
A. To my recollection, it looked like No. 3.
Q. No. 3. And that would be this one --
A. Yes.
Q. -- right here. Can you tell that that has a cargo door on
the side from this photograph -- or from this brochure?
A. I don't remember that. I'm sorry.
Q. I'm just -- from this brochure?
A. From this brochure it has a door, yes.
Q. And zooming in a little closer, is that the one that can
move three bedrooms?
Herta King - Direct
A. Yes; that's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, Lea McGown is your best friend?
A. Yes.
Q. And the last two-and-a-half years have been pretty
interesting for Miss McGown; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's because the FBI has visited the Dreamland a lot?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Have you and Miss McGown had discussions about the Ryder
truck?
A. After the bombing.
Q. Just answer yes or no without telling us what she said.
A. Yes.
Q. You have had discussions about that truck. And did you say
to Miss McGown -- what did you say to Miss McGown about the
truck?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Did Miss McGown agree with you at one point that a Ryder
truck was at her hotel on Easter Sunday, 1995?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Herta King - Direct
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. You can answer.
A. Yes, she did.
Q. And did she say to you, "It doesn't make sense that a truck
was there on Sunday, if McVeigh rented it on Monday"?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
THE WITNESS: Yes, she did say that.
THE COURT: No, sustained the objection.
MR. NEUREITER: May I ask the witness to say what Miss
McGown said?
THE COURT: Well, yes.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. What did Miss McGown say to you?
MR. ORENSTEIN: I --
THE COURT: Objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS: May I talk about --
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Yes, you may.
THE COURT: What is your recollection of what she said
to you? That's the question.
THE WITNESS: Mrs. McGown said, "It doesn't make sense
that Mr. McVeigh rented the truck on Monday morning when the
truck -- when a Ryder truck was there already on Sunday.
MR. NEUREITER: Thank you very much.
Herta King - Direct
THE COURT: Cross-examination.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good afternoon, Miss King.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. We've met before, of course.
A. Yes, we have.
Q. Now, you've seen pictures of Mr. McVeigh in the time since
the bombing; correct?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And you know what he looks like?
A. Yes.
Q. And you've never seen him in person; is that correct?
A. No, I have not.
Q. You've been to the Dreamland many times over the years?
A. Many times.
Q. And you've been friends with Lea McGown for, what, 20
years?
A. 20 years.
Q. Now, while you were still living in Kansas, would it be
fair to say that you visited Mrs. McGown weekly at the
Dreamland?
A. That's correct.
Q. Probably two or three times a week?
A. That's correct.
Herta King - Cross
Q. And you were there -- excuse me -- you were there on Good
Friday, which was her son's birthday; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't see a truck that day; correct?
A. I did not, no.
Q. Now, Mr. Neureiter asked you about Sunday; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When were you there on Sunday?
A. I was there about 12:45.
Q. And how long were you there?
A. For about 15 minutes.
Q. And that was to visit your son; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were on your way to an Easter meal with a friend;
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. So at about 3:00 in the afternoon, you were with your
friend having your Easter meal; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. You weren't at the Dreamland?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't go back to the Dreamland until rather later
that night; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And when you came back, there was no Ryder truck; correct?
Herta King - Cross
A. I did not see any, no.
Q. And -- excuse me.
When you saw a Ryder truck at the Dreamland Motel on
the occasion that you're describing, there was no one in it;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. No one near it?
A. Correct.
Q. No one walking to it or from it?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, you've previously rented a 20-foot Ryder truck.
A. Yes.
Q. Wasn't as big as the one you rented -- the one that you
saw?
A. No.
Q. And I think you told Mr. Neureiter that you don't recall
seeing a side door on the box of that truck?
A. I don't recall.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Any other questions?
MR. NEUREITER: No redirect, your Honor. The witness
is excused.
THE COURT: Will you excuse the witness?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're now excused.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. We would call Shane
Boyd. Mr. Thurschwell will question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Shane Boyd affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Shane W. Boyd, B-O-Y-D.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Thurschwell.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Boyd.
Mr. Boyd, where do you currently reside?
A. In Killeen, Texas, at Fort Hood.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Children?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. Two.
Q. And what do you do down there at Fort Hood?
Shane Boyd - Direct
A. I'm in the U.S. Army. I'm a sergeant. And --
Q. What's your rank?
A. Sergeant.
Q. Okay. E4, is that --
A. E5.
Q. E5. Shall we refer to you as "Mister" or "Sergeant"?
A. It doesn't matter.
Q. Well, I'll keep to non-military, then.
Let me take you back to April, 1995. How were you
employed at that time?
A. At the time, I worked for Lockheed Martin contractor,
working on Apache helicopters.
Q. What specifically were you doing on Apache helicopters?
A. What they call ASAMs, Aviation Safety Accident Messages.
We would travel around the country and do repairs or
modifications to the helicopters themselves.
Q. You were a mechanic of some kind?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you what's been previously
admitted as Defense Exhibit D1701.
Do you recognize what's depicted in that exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. The Dreamland Motel.
Q. Okay. Did you have occasion to stay at the Dreamland Motel
Shane Boyd - Direct
in April of 1995?
A. Yes. I stayed there for approximately five to six weeks.
Q. All right. Do you recall the precise dates, or as near as
you can remember?
A. I believe the first week of April through the middle of
May.
Q. Okay. Now, I wanted to zoom in.
And if you can, take the pen that's on the desktop in
front of you and underneath the desk, if you just can point on
the screen and touch the screen with the pen to the room that
you were staying in, if you recall.
A. I'm pointing at it. Do you see it?
Q. Not yet.
Okay. All right. Do you recall the room number that
you were in?
A. It was 28.
Q. Okay. Now, during the period you stayed there, did you
ever observe a Ryder truck or trucks?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. When was the first time, if you recall, that you
remember seeing a Ryder truck during your stay there?
A. The Monday previous to . . . I can't give you a specific
date as far as the Monday before I had an encounter with
Timothy McVeigh.
Q. Okay. We'll come to that.
Shane Boyd - Direct
A. Okay.
Q. Let me do it in terms --
A. I do not --
Q. Do you recall the day that the Murrah Building bombing
happened?
A. It was on a Wednesday, wasn't it?
Q. That's right. Did you see the truck for the first time on
the Monday immediately preceding that?
A. No. The one prior to that.
Q. The one prior to that?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. All right. And what time of day did you see it?
A. Approximately 5:45 to 6:00 in the morning.
Q. And when you -- can you describe it?
A. It had a flatbed trailer on the back of it. It was a
three-bedroom-size Ryder with a flatbed trailer on the back.
Q. And can you describe the flatbed trailer? Was it a small
one, large one?
A. It was about 20, 25 feet in length, something you would
carry a car or a tractor on. It was welded with a wood bottom.
Q. Okay.
A. As far as it was steel with a wood bottom.
Q. All right. Now, where was this truck when you first saw
it? Was it parked, or was it moving?
A. It was down at the -- at the east end of the -- of the
Shane Boyd - Direct
motel, as far as it looked like it was attempting a U-turn in
the early morning.
Q. So it was in motion when you --
A. Correct, uh-huh.
Q. Okay. Did -- when was the -- did you see -- did you return
to your room later that day?
A. Yes, approximately around 3:00.
Q. Did you see the truck at that time?
A. Excuse me. No.
Q. When was the next time you saw a Ryder truck that week?
A. Tuesday or Wednesday.
Q. Tuesday or Wednesday? And what time of day did you see it
then?
A. I'd usually see it in the morning. And in the afternoons.
Q. Okay. Now, what time of morning are we talking about?
A. Same time frame, 5:45 to 6:00 in the morning.
Q. And is there a reason that you were up and about at that
hour?
A. Well, our work call as at 6:00, and it only took me about
five minutes to get to the -- to the Army base and on the
airfield.
Q. So you were leaving for work around that time?
A. Correct.
Q. And what time did you usually, typically return home?
A. 3:00. Between 3:00 and 3:15.
Shane Boyd - Direct
Q. Did you see the truck on any day that afternoon -- in the
afternoon, when you returned?
A. Yes, I'd see it every day. As far as where I parked in
front of my room -- the Ryder truck, I had to go past it.
Q. Okay.
If we can show 1701 again.
Can you mark on this exhibit where you -- the places,
plural, that you saw the Ryder truck parked that week in the
afternoon.
A. First it was parked over here.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Tell him to put the pen right
down.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. You've got to hold the pen straight up and down and touch
the screen with it.
A. I'm doing that.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: There it is.
THE WITNESS: There we go.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. So is that just to the east?
A. That's the east side of the sign.
Q. All right.
A. As far as directly behind it.
Q. Did you see it parked anywhere else that week?
A. Yes. On the west side of the -- of the sign, as far as it
Shane Boyd - Direct
was parked on this piece of grass right here.
Q. Now, I'm referring to it as if it were the singular, but
you tell me: Could you determine whether this was the same
Ryder truck you would see in the morning as in the afternoon?
A. It was the same size. I didn't see a license plate or
anything. Like I say, the only thing that distinguished it was
a flatbed trailer on the back of it.
Q. When you saw it that week, did it have the flatbed trailer?
A. No.
Q. It was just that first time?
A. Uh-huh, on Monday morning.
Q. But was the same-size truck that you saw each time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when was the last time that you saw the truck?
A. I believe it was Sunday morning. Parked in the same --
same spot.
Q. Would that be Sunday, April 16?
A. Easter.
Q. Easter Sunday, all right. And when you say the "same
spot," would that be to the east, or to the west?
A. It was on the east side of the sign. It was -- excuse me.
I stand corrected. It was on the west side of the
sign, pointing west, as far as facing west.
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Boyd, I want to show you a photograph of
someone and ask if you've ever seen them in person before.
Shane Boyd - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Have you since come to learn the name of this person?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. All right. And what is that?
A. Timothy McVeigh.
Q. Okay. Now, when did you -- let me ask it this way: When
was the first time you encountered this individual?
A. Friday, the week prior to the bombing.
Q. Would that be Friday, April 14?
A. I believe so. If I could . . . Two days before Easter,
so . . .
Q. And what time of day was it?
A. This was right at getting dusk. It was approximately 6:30;
6:00-to-7:30 time frame.
Q. All right. And how did you see him? What were the
circumstances?
A. I was outside. Me and my wife were outside having a
barbecue as far as in front of our room. What we do -- what
I'd do a lot on the road. And I had too much -- too much meat
on the barbecue pit, so I decided, well, I can't eat this all
by myself; I better ask somebody if they would like to have
some. And from the way I am, I just -- the first person I saw,
I asked them if -- would they like any barbecued chicken.
Q. And who was that person?
A. That was Timothy McVeigh.
Shane Boyd - Direct
Q. All right. Now, had -- was he there the whole time, from
the time you began barbecuing?
A. He had been in his room. Because by the time -- 'cause I'd
been outside for at least 45 minutes to an hour, in and out,
getting a beer, whatever. And whenever he came out, he was
locking his door and leaving.
Q. Okay. So you saw him going in and out. Going in and out.
Or come out?
A. I saw him leave.
Q. Okay. Do you recall the room number that he came out of?
A. No. Because I was -- I was pointing to the east, and I
couldn't see the room number. It was two doors down from me.
Q. All right. Is that two doors down from the room that you
were staying in?
A. If I could see a picture again, I could point.
Q. Well, let's show you the picture. Showing you again --
MR. THURSCHWELL: The last exhibit was Government 318.
I'm not sure I identified it.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. THURSCHWELL: This is showing the witness again
D1701, the west wing of the Dreamland Motel.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Can you try one more time with the pen, and let's see if
you can point to the room where you were --
A. Okay. We were here. We were here.
Shane Boyd - Direct
Q. Once more. I think you have to keep it upright, or it
starts blinking.
Okay.
A. And the person came out of the room here.
Q. Okay. Now, are you certain that those were the rooms that
you were staying in and that he was staying in?
A. I don't know if he was staying there, but I saw him come
out of that room.
Q. Okay. Did you see that individual at any point in a
vehicle?
A. There was a yellow car, Mercury that he got into, a
four-door, yellow Mercury.
Q. Okay. And -- but when did you see him get into the car?
A. When I was -- when I asked him if he wanted any barbecue
chicken, he didn't say anything to me, turned around and made
sure his door was locked, and then immediately got in his car
and left.
Q. And left. Okay. Did you ever see him again, in person?
A. No, I didn't. I did see the car off and on.
Q. Okay. During that week?
A. During the week, yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall the last time, the last day that you saw the
car there?
A. That was probably Saturday. I believe it was Sunday
after . . . after Easter dinner.
Shane Boyd - Direct
Q. Okay. Now, I want to direct your attention to late
afternoon of Saturday of that same weekend, around 3:30. Do
you recall where you were at that time?
A. Yes, sir. We just -- me and my wife had just come back
from the mall.
Q. Okay.
A. And --
Q. Sorry. Did there come a time when you decided you wanted
to get a Coca-Cola?
A. Correct. I -- we got into the room, and then I proceeded
to just go out, because it was such a nice day -- that I want
to go down and buy a Coke, take a little walk.
Q. Where -- where did you go to get the Coke?
A. On the other side of the office, the east side of the
office.
Q. And is that because there was a Coke machine there, to your
recollection?
A. Correct. That's where the Coke machine was located.
Q. Okay. Let me show you what's been marked and admitted as
Government Exhibit 287.
And if you could click -- there's a button on the side
of that pen. If you could click that two or three times, I
think you could get rid of those marks.
Thank you.
Now, again using the pen as a pointer, can you point
Shane Boyd - Direct
to where the Coke machine was, to your best recollection, in
April of 1995?
One more time. We've got the blinking problem. Try
to keep the pen straight up and down.
Okay. And you're pointing to what is the -- appears
to be the east side of the office; is that correct?
A. Correct. It was located approximately in the corner where
the shadow is at the moment.
Q. Okay. Now, you left your room to walk down to the Coke
machine; is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay. Tell me what happened. Did you, on that trip or the
return trip -- did you encounter an individual?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Tell me about that. Where did you encounter
this individual?
A. Where the mark is on the screen is approximately where I
met the person at the corner of the building --
Q. Okay.
A. -- as . . .
Q. And were you -- at that point had you bought the Coke, or
were you on your way to buy the Coke?
A. I had already bought the Coke. And I was turning around to
proceed back to the -- to my room.
Q. Okay. So you were beginning to head back west towards your
Shane Boyd - Direct
room?
A. Correct.
Q. Which way was this other individual walking?
A. He was walking east.
Q. Okay. Can you describe him?
A. Yes. He was Hispanic. Approximately 5' 6", 180 to
200 pounds, short, short haircut, seemed like he was in the
military.
Q. How was he dressed?
A. Tan shirt, blue jeans shorts down to the knees. No facial
hair or anything like that. No jewelry or any scars or
anything.
Q. Okay. Could you describe his skin tone?
A. Olive.
Q. Olive?
A. Hispanic-looking, olive color.
Q. Now, do you know where he came from? Do you know if he
came out of any of the rooms in the motel?
A. No, I don't know if he came out of any of the rooms,
because when I came out of my room, I looked to the right, saw
no one; then I proceeded left, walked around the building,
walked around the office, got the Coke, and turned around and
about ran into him.
Q. Okay. About how long did it take you to walk from your
room down to the Coke machine?
Shane Boyd - Direct
A. Approximately . . . 10, maybe 20 seconds.
Q. All right. And did you see this individual come out of the
office?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Do you know whether he came out of the office, or
not?
A. No. He did not. I don't -- he did not come out of the
office.
Q. He did not. And how do you know that he didn't come out of
the office?
A. Well, if he -- I don't know if you could have a better shot
of the office, but there's windows on all three sides.
Q. Okay.
A. And nine times out of ten, the windows are open with the
blinds pulled up. That means you can see straight through from
one side to the other. I couldn't see one -- no one in there
at the time.
Q. All right. So if he had been in there, you would have been
able to see him?
A. Yes. Because I had previously seen people before walking
that way.
Q. Based on your -- based on your looking down west when you
emerged from your room and not seeing him in the office, did
you draw any conclusions about where he had come from?
A. That he came up on me pretty quick and that I know he
Shane Boyd - Direct
didn't come out of the office, so he must have came out of
either the first or second room beside me.
Q. Okay. And those -- and one of those two rooms was the room
that you saw Mr. McVeigh come out of; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay.
MR. THURSCHWELL: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right.
Mr. Orenstein.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Make I have a moment, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Boyd.
A. Hi.
Q. Now, you were staying at the Dreamland for about a month --
is that right -- about six weeks, something like that?
A. Correct.
Q. And you saw a truck there. The first time was Monday not
before the bombing but a week before; right?
A. Correct.
Q. So that would be -- if the bombing occurred Wednesday, the
19th, the Monday before that would be Monday, the 17th; and the
Monday before that, when you saw the Ryder truck, would be
Monday, the 10th; correct?
A. Correct.
Shane Boyd - Cross
Q. And, now, Mr. McVeigh was somebody that you saw at the
Dreamland; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. While you were staying there; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you never saw him before that Friday night when you had
your barbecue; correct?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Are you aware that he was in Arizona on Monday, the 10th?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware that he was in Arizona --
MR. THURSCHWELL: Objection --
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. And prior -- I'm sorry. After Sunday, you never saw that
Ryder truck?
A. No, I did not.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I have a moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. THURSCHWELL: No redirect, your Honor. The
witness is excused.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
excused.
I think we'll take our afternoon recess at this time.
Members of the jury, we'll take our usual break here for about
20 minutes, during which, of course, please avoid discussion of
the case or anything about it with other jurors and all other
persons; and continue to avoid anything outside the evidence
that could affect your judgment in this case, and keep open
minds.
You're excused now, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 3:05 p.m.)
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, just for the Court's
convenience --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: -- we're changing the order of witnesses.
Vicki Beemer will be the next witness.
THE COURT: Miss Beemer. And will you do Mr. Elliott
right after that?
MR. WOODS: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you. 20 minutes.
(Recess at 3:06 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:24 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 3:24 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Next witness.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Vicki Beemer.
THE COURT: Ms. Beemer.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Vicki Beemer affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Vicki Beemer, B-E-E-M-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Beemer.
A. Hi.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers that was
appointed by the district judge in Oklahoma City to help Terry
Nichols in this case.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You and I have never met. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. I've never been given an opportunity to interview you; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Are you represented by a lawyer here today?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. And who is that?
A. John Morris.
Q. Is he here in court today?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Seated back here behind the Government counsel table?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is Reid Robison?
A. He is representing Eldon Elliott.
Q. Did he at one time represent you?
A. I believe I spoke with Reid during the grand jury, the day
of the grand jury, in Oklahoma City.
Q. Do you recall testifying in this case here in this trial
before on the 21st day of May, 1997?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recall being asked the question concerning grand
jury -- the question to you was, "Was your lawyer with you
outside?"
And your answer being, "I believe that Reid Robison
was outside, yes."
A. At that time, I don't know that -- I think the law firm
was -- Ryder had contacted that law firm for us, but -- and
Reid did speak to me; but as far as actually me ever asking him
to represent me, you know, he was there and he did speak to me
just briefly. But yes, he was there.
Q. Okay. And are you paying the fee for your lawyer, or is
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Ryder paying the fee?
MR. MEARNS: Objection. Relevance.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Where do you work, Ms. Beemer?
A. I am no longer employed.
Q. Okay.
A. I used to work at Elliott's Body Shop.
Q. What period of time did you work at Elliott's Body Shop?
A. I worked at Elliott's Body Shop from October of '94 till
October of this -- '97. Or actually, just three weeks ago.
Q. Approximately four years?
A. Three years.
Q. '94 to '97 is three years?
A. Three years, yes.
Q. You were employed there in April, '95?
A. That's right.
Q. What were your duties?
A. I was more or less the office manager. I answered the
telephone, took care of body-shop tickets. We also were a
Ryder dealer, and so I did Ryder Truck Rental agreements, also.
Q. Okay. Where was Elliott's Body Shop located?
A. It's in Junction City, Kansas.
Q. Is it downtown in the center, or is it away from town?
A. It's on the west edge of Junction City. It is in the city
Vicki Beemer - Direct
limits, but it's on the west end.
Q. Okay. Now, as office manager -- and you mentioned that the
body shop also was a -- what, a licensee or a franchisee for
Ryder? Is that correct?
A. We are a Ryder dealer.
Q. A dealer. Okay. And did you handle the transactions, the
paperwork, for the rentals on Ryder trucks?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. Can you tell the jury in general the transaction
procedure that you would go through if a person were to call
and get a quote and then come in and rent the truck. Could you
just tell them briefly in general how that process works.
A. Just briefly, they call in. They ask, you know, how much
it would cost to take a Ryder truck from one destination to
another destination. It can also be a local move, which is
within the Junction City area. We have certain things that
we -- it's all done by computer. We have to enter certain
information in the computer. We tell them, you know, for what
information they are wanting, where they're going, how much it
costs, what day they're going to pick it up, how many days they
are given, you know. We offer them coverage for the truck; and
at the very end, we can give them a total, including tax plus a
deposit to let them know the entire rental cost.
Q. How long is that quote good for, the quote that you give
them?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
A. The quote is good for 24 hours.
Q. And what has to happen within that 24 hours before the
quote is no longer effective?
A. Well, after 24 hours -- they need to come in and put a
deposit, an $80 deposit down on the truck to reserve it which
will guaranty them a truck. It also locks the price in.
If they don't do it within the 24 hours, if the price
should happen to go up, they would have to pay it -- they could
still have a truck, but they'd have to pay a higher price.
Q. Okay. And after they lock the price in, then what happens?
A. Then we post them -- after they give us the deposit, it is
then a reservation. We have a board on the wall that we put --
a calendar board that we put their name, the size of truck. On
a one-way rental, we circle it because that tells us it's a
one-way; and then it's there for them to pick up the truck.
Q. And if the person comes in to pick up the truck, what
procedure do you go through with the customer?
A. When they walk in, the first thing I do is get into the --
access the computer for their -- the quote that is in there or
the reservation comes right up as an open agreement, and I ask
them for their driver's license.
Q. What do you do with the driver's license? What
information, if any, do you take from that?
A. I take the first name, the last name, driver's license
number, Social Security number, state, date of birth,
Vicki Beemer - Direct
expiration date.
Q. And do you type that into some form on the computer?
A. Yes. It's all -- has a format right there, and you just
fill in the blanks.
Q. After typing that up, what is the next step in the process?
A. The next step is you will print the contract; that is,
unless there are some questions or they want to add or delete
something off of the contract. You print it up. There is a
safety inspection that has to be done on the truck.
Q. And explain that to the jury, if you would.
A. It's just merely a sheet that one of us at the body shop
would go out and do a walk-around on the truck and list any
damages that are on the truck so that they are not responsible
for any damages that are on that truck when they rent the truck
out.
Q. Okay. And after the safety inspection is done, does the
customer initial that?
A. The customer initials the safety instructions -- the safety
inspection sheet and they sign it. And there is also the
agreement number of a contract. The rental agreement is also
on there.
Q. All right. And when do you hand the rental agreement to
the customer to be signed, if you do?
A. Yes. It is also printed out on the computer. After we get
the driver's license information, it's printed. They are asked
Vicki Beemer - Direct
to initial and to sign it.
And then after all the paperwork is done and they have
signed each one, they are given their copies and it is put into
a folder and they're ready to go.
Q. Do you give them a set of keys, or the keys in the truck?
A. Normally the keys are in the truck.
The trucks at Elliott's Body Shop are kept up on a
hill, and they are the brought down for the customer, and
usually they're just left right there.
Q. Do the keys have a key ring with any emblem of Ryder on
them?
A. It's just got a Ryder -- it's a yellow tag that's got
"Ryder" written on the key chain.
Q. Now, did there come a time on April 19 in 1995, the day of
the bombing -- were you contacted concerning the rental of any
vehicle that had previously been rented from your location?
A. Yes, I was contacted.
Q. Now, one question back to the procedure: Is there a number
on that contract that will correspond with the number of the
truck in any manner?
A. Yes. Truck number is on the contract.
Q. Okay. And by "truck number," do you mean the vehicle
identification number?
A. That is the VIN number. This is a regular -- a number
assigned to the truck. It is located on the top of the truck.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. All right. Now --
A. I think it's also on the hood of the truck. There is two
different places that that number appears.
Q. And the number will also then appear on your contract?
A. Yes.
Q. That you write up with the renter?
A. That's right.
Q. You remarked to the jury that you were entering into a
computer -- is that correct -- all the information?
A. That's right.
Q. Is that computer hooked up to anywhere, or is it just a
stand-alone within your office?
A. No, it's hooked up to Ryder First.
Q. Where is Ryder located?
A. They've got an office in Miami and also one -- well, now
it's out here in Denver, I guess, and then in Dallas, Texas,
also. I'm not real sure on what it --
Q. In April, '95, do you know where the headquarters were at
that time?
A. I believe it was still out of Miami, because they weren't
out here in Denver yet.
Q. Did you receive any inquiry from Denver concerning the
rental of an automobile -- of a van?
A. I received a phone call approximately 2, 2:15 on that
Wednesday afternoon, April 19, inquiring as to a truck
Vicki Beemer - Direct
number -- whether I had rented that particular truck number
out. A lady, didn't identify herself -- just said, you know:
Did you rent out Truck No. such and such? I checked my files
and I had.
And she -- she just dropped it, and I didn't even know
who it was.
Q. Okay. By checking your files, after you fill out the
rental form for the customer, what do you do with your copy of
the printed paper? There is obviously something in the
computer, but do you have a printout also?
A. Yes. That's what I was checking. I have a filing cabinet
that I kept those in. If she would have known the last name of
the customer or a number, I could have pulled it up in the
computer; but without that, I had to go to my file.
Q. So you went back and looked through them individually to
look for that truck number; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you had no name to look for at that time?
A. Not at that time. I went by the truck number.
Q. Did you find a rental contract that corresponded to the
inquiry that you received from the lady?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was the name of the individual that had rented that
truck?
A. It was Rob or Bob Kling.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. How do you spell that?
A. Kling is K-L-I-N-G.
Q. Okay. And did your contract reflect the date and time of
that rental?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. And what was the date and time?
A. On the top of the contract, it had 4 -- the time was 4:19,
and the date of the contract was 4-17 of '95.
Q. Now, on the top of it, the date 4-19 --
A. Sir, that was not the date. That was the time on the top
of it.
Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. The date was 4-17. It just had a
time of --
A. That I accessed the computer.
Q. -- of 4:19. Okay. I see. And you pulled that contract
up. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Or you got the written portion of it?
A. When the phone call came to me and I checked the file, I
just told her yes, I had rented it out. And I don't remember
for sure whether I gave her the name of which the contract was
rented out or not. She just -- that seemed to, you know,
answer her question, and then I didn't hear any more from her.
Q. Again, for the jury, what time was that on the 19th that
you got the call?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
A. It was approximately 2:15.
Q. In the afternoon?
A. Yeah. That's a just estimate is 2:15.
Q. Okay. And had you observed on the news or the media or the
radio, television, that there had been a bombing in Oklahoma
City that day?
A. I had heard it on the radio in the morning, yes.
Q. All right. Now, what next happened after 2:15 concerning
that particular contract that you looked at?
A. It was around 3 -- 3 to 3:15. And this is an estimate.
Scott Crabtree from Salina, Kansas, with the FBI called and he
informed me that that truck number -- there was a possibility
that that truck was used in the Oklahoma City bombing and
that -- to ask -- that none of us leave there until he got
there.
Q. Okay. And by "none of us," can you tell the jury who
worked at Eldon Elliott's at that time.
A. I believe there were -- can I name them?
Q. Sure.
A. There was Val Elliott, which is Eldon's son. There was
Tommy Kessinger, Bob Nelson, Greg Hegamiester, myself and Eldon
and Fernando Ramos.
Q. And did you inform any or all of those individuals that
they were not to leave?
A. Yes. I told everyone that we could not -- no one could
Vicki Beemer - Direct
leave until Mr. Crabtree got down there and talked to us.
Q. Okay. Now, the rental had occurred two days earlier; is
that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Approximately -- not approximately, but on April 17, Monday
afternoon, at 4:19 in the afternoon?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, did Mr. Crabtree arrive shortly thereafter?
A. It was probably -- it was somewhere around 4:15 to 4:30,
because it takes about an hour to drive from Salina to Junction
City.
Q. Okay. And when Mr. Crabtree arrived, did he interview you
at some point during that afternoon?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Were you by yourself and Mr. Crabtree, or were all of you
together, being interviewed together?
A. No, I was by myself.
Q. Okay.
A. With him.
Q. And who else did he interview to your knowledge?
A. I know he interviewed Eldon. I would be guessing on
anybody else. I'm not sure. He may have interviewed Tommy. I
really don't remember.
Q. Now, do you have a recollection, or at that time when
Mr. Crabtree interviewed you, did you have a recollection of
Vicki Beemer - Direct
the rental that had occurred two days before with Robert Kling?
A. I had some recollection, yes.
Q. Well, let's start, then, of what your recollection was at
that time in your interview with Mr. Crabtree.
What did you tell -- well, let's just call on your
recollection. Do you recall an individual by the name of
Robert Kling coming into your office?
A. Yes. I recall that there was an individual by that name
that came in to rent the truck.
Q. Okay. Now, in the envelope in front of you, there is a
group of photographs right in the front, and they are -- list
the numbers. It's D765, D766, and D771. Also, D1719, 1720,
'21, '22, '23, '24, and '25. If you would look at those
photographs. And without explaining what the scene is, do you
recognize the scene that's depicted in those various
photographs?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Have you seen that view of the objects depicted in those
photographs before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And do those photographs accurately depict the scene that's
captured in the photograph?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And are those photographs of your office --
A. Yes.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. -- area?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, we would move into evidence
again for the record Defendant's D765, 766, 771 and 1719
through 1725.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. They're received.
MR. WOODS: We would ask to publish the photographs.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, Ms. Beemer.
THE WITNESS: Do you need this one, too?
MR. WOODS: Yeah.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mrs. Beemer, are all these photos within your office
showing photos from different views, different vantage points?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to put each one up and ask you to explain to the
jury what view we're looking at concerning your office. And
can you give the jury a brief description of what view we're
looking at there, from what vantage point?
A. It would be looking from where I sit at my desk out to the
southwest of the building. It's looking straight out to the
southwest.
Q. And there is a doorway there; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. Is that the door that enters and exits your office to the
outside?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Is that the only door that goes to the outside from that
office?
A. There is a big shop door also, but that's the only small
door.
Q. The shop door opens up into the shop; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. This is the door that people -- that are customers coming
in and out of; is that correct?
A. This is the door to the office, yes.
Q. How many feet is it from the door to the counter that's
reflected there in front of your desk?
A. Probably 3 to 5 feet.
THE COURT: What is that number, Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry, your Honor. It's D765.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Ms. Beemer, I'm going to show you now what is marked as
D766. And can you give the jury an explanation of what view
we're looking at there?
A. Well, that would be the view if I was sitting at my desk --
it would be off to my right, then, which would be off to the
north.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. And there is chairs?
A. And there is chairs sitting there.
Q. And there appears to be a window; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And if you keep going to the left, we get to the doorway;
is that correct?
A. If you keep going to the left -- right -- you get to the
front door.
Q. Now I'm going to show you what's marked as D771; and can
you tell the jury what view is depicted there.
A. That's looking from the hallway towards the front door, the
hallway being the hallway to the body shop. You're standing
and there is a hallway looking towards the front door.
Q. And again, those chairs are where in relation to this
photograph?
A. They're to the right of it.
Q. Okay.
A. If you're looking at the front door, there is some -- well,
you can see one of the chairs. I believe there is two on that
wall; and then on this wall over here that you can't see, there
is probably three or four chairs there.
Q. Okay. And D1719: Can you tell the jury what that view
depicts.
A. That would be the view you would see as you'd walk -- as
you're walking in from the front door.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. From which door?
A. Well, it's -- you're looking catty-corner. The front door
is over on this side, and then to the body shop is off on
that -- you're looking at it kind of at an angle.
Q. Where was your chair?
A. My chair is right -- right in the middle there.
Q. Okay. There is a pen up there laying on the desk. And if
you reach under the screen and put the pen on top of the
screen, sort of holding it vertical, you can mark on the
screen. If you would, mark where your chair is.
A. Right there.
Q. Okay. And I'm going to show you D1720. And if you will
tell the jury what view within your office is depicted there.
A. That's the view almost directly straight in front of the
window that's in the office there. Well, the window to the
southwest. The window that's from the door -- that is beside
the front door, this vending machine is almost straight from
the window.
Q. All right. Approximately what is the size of your office
in feet, length- and widthwise, if you could give the jury an
estimation?
A. I really don't know. It's a small office. It's probably
maybe 15 foot wide and 12 or 15 foot long; and that may be
completely wrong, too. I don't know. It's a small office.
Q. Okay. And D1721: Will you tell the jury what view that
Vicki Beemer - Direct
depicts.
A. If you look to the right here, there is -- that is the door
over there. It's in front of my counter. It's in front of the
counter of my desk. As you walk in the front door, this would
be what you would see.
Q. And there is a chart depicted there. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And we'll get to that later, but you referred to that chart
at one time; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And the door is just right here, the entrance?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And Defense Exhibit 1723: What view is depicted
there?
A. That is the view looking from the hallway of the body shop
out by my desk out the window to the south.
Q. All right. And 1725?
A. Well, that's pretty much a view as you walk in the door and
kind of glance to your left. That's the view you would see.
Q. All right. Now, these chairs that are along here: How
many chairs were along there in April, '95, if you recall?
A. In April of '95 we didn't have like the handtruck and the
boxes in there, so there was probably at least one more chair
on that side, so there was probably three there and three on
the west wall.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. Okay.
A. So there was probably a total of six chairs out there.
Q. And when you say you didn't have the handcart, is this the
handcart you're referring to?
A. Yes.
Q. And the boxes? They were not there in April, '95?
A. That's right.
Q. Was there a time when the Government came and took
photographs of your office there when you were present?
A. Yes, I believe they did that several times. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you know -- were you present when the handcart
was there and photographs were taken?
A. I really don't remember if they took them after that was
there or not.
Q. Okay. And the next-to-the-last one: Does this depict the
chairs that are along the front wall by the door?
A. That's right.
Q. And does that show a perspective of where the counter is in
relation to the door?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. And then the last photo, 1703: Is this a photo
of the chart that's along the wall to the left of your counter?
A. That's right.
Q. Is that the chart that you referred to during your
negotiations with Mr. Kling?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
A. On the phone, yes.
Q. Yes, ma'am?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
Now, let's mention that phone contact that you had
first. When you reviewed the contract with Mr. Kling, you were
asked to pull up a certain contract number or truck number; is
that correct?
A. I was asked to pull up his name. You just -- I had to put
a K in and pulled the whole thing up.
Q. When he came in --
A. When he came in, uh-huh.
Q. I'm speaking now back on April 19, when you were asked to
find the contract for the truck number.
A. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. You said on the -- on what date?
Q. On April 19, you got an inquiry from someone who asked
about a truck number, if you had a rental contract. Is that
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. At that time, did you remember when you looked at the
contract and the forms therein, the reservation form and the
quote form and all -- did you recall a phone conversation that
you had with the individual on Friday, April 14?
A. Not exactly at that moment, no. It wasn't till I reviewed
the contract a little more; and probably by the time
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Mr. Crabtree got there, I had, you know, done some more
thinking about, you know, what had happened. But at the time
that the first phone call came, I really didn't give it another
thought.
Q. Sure. By the time Mr. Crabtree got there, you looked at
the contract and refreshed your memory; is that correct?
A. I looked at it, and I did remember some things that stuck
out in my mind, yes.
Q. Now, tell the jury about the phone conversation that you
had on Friday, April 14. And was there a form that you filled
out in regard to that phone call?
A. You just -- it's a blank form in there that when you have a
phone call, you just start filling in the blanks; and he gave
me his name -- he gave me the information that I asked for.
Q. Okay. Let me stop you there when you're saying "he." Did
someone call you in regards to a quote?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. On Friday, April 14?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall the name that was given at that time?
A. Yes. It was Rob Kling.
Q. Do you recall approximately what time the quote was given?
A. It was in the morning. It was around 10, 10:30.
Q. Okay. And what exactly did he ask for in the phone
conversation, if you could, for the jury? Just summarize the
Vicki Beemer - Direct
best you can recall the phone conversation you had with the
individual who identified himself as Robert Kling.
A. He asked me when we got to the size of the truck -- he
asked me -- he says -- he wanted to know how much it would cost
to take a 15-foot. And he says, "Well," he says, "how many
pounds does a 15-foot truck hold?"
And that's when I had to get up and go look at my
chart. And I saw that it was like 32- to 34,000 (sic) pounds.
I came back and I gave him that information.
And he said, "I need a truck that will hold
5,000 pounds."
I again got up and went around and saw that it would
take a 20-foot truck, and I conveyed that to him.
Q. And was a price -- a bid given? Excuse me. A quote given
as to the cost for a 20-foot?
A. That's right.
Q. And what conversation did you have with Mr. Kling after you
gave him the quote for a 20-foot?
A. I would have told him -- I did tell him that the quote was
good for 24 hours; that we needed a deposit to lock this in and
that they were only open till approximately 10:00 on Saturday
so that if he couldn't get in before the end of the day on
Friday, then he would have had to be there by 10:00 on
Saturday.
He wanted the truck for the 19 -- or for the 17th,
Vicki Beemer - Direct
which was on Monday, and we needed to get it reserved.
Q. Okay. You're not open on Sunday, I take it?
A. No, at that time we were not. No.
Q. And what hours was the shop open on Saturday, to your
knowledge?
A. 8 to around 10 or 10:30. We just basically was to rent out
Ryder trucks, however many we had to rent out.
Q. And you didn't work on Saturdays, did you?
A. I did on occasion, not as a regular basis; but two or three
times, I did.
Q. Okay. Did you work that Saturday on April 15?
A. No, I did not.
Q. All right. Is there anything else in that phone
conversation that you can recall you had with Mr. Kling
concerning the quote and the reservation?
A. No, I don't believe so.
Q. Did he give you an address at that time?
A. I don't -- I don't know. On the quote, it would be on the
quote, if he gave me one.
Q. And if you will, look inside that envelope again, and there
is a copy of the quote?
A. There is not one listed there; so obviously, he didn't give
me one.
Q. Okay. What's the D number on that exhibit?
A. Are you asking me?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. 1715.
Q. Okay. Now, is that the form that you filled out, or a copy
of it that you filled out concerning the phone conversation and
giving the quote to a Robert Kling?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. WOODS: We would offer into evidence D1715.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. WOODS: And may I get the --
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Thank you, Ms. Beemer.
Now, Ms. Beemer, would you explain to the jury what
information is put on a quote form when you take a reservation
over the phone. It's not really a reservation but a request,
and you gave the quote.
A. The first thing we ask would be for the last name, and then
we ask for the first name.
Q. Can you point out for the jury where you put that
information. You might need to click the pen on the side,
which will remove that prior marking.
I think if you hold it straight up and down and touch
the screen, it works better.
A. I'm not too good at this.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. If you could just point to the area where you put the name
in.
A. That would be the -- where that top arrow is the name.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Just touch it to the screen and
it should --
THE WITNESS: How do I get rid of those?
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, the name is -- excuse me. The name is put in the top
upper left. Is that correct?
A. Well, that's the way it's printed out, yes.
Q. All right. And --
A. The way it has gotten on the computer, the last name is
there first and then the first name and then the telephone
number.
Q. Now, the telephone number: What phone number is that?
A. The phone number on this particular paper is the Elliott's
Body Shop phone number.
Q. Had you asked Mr. Kling for a phone number?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did he give you one?
A. He said he didn't have a telephone number.
Q. And why do you put the Elliott's phone number in there?
A. Because at that time, the computer would not go any further
without a telephone number, so we had to put something in order
Vicki Beemer - Direct
to continue --
Q. To go to the next blank to fill out, you have to put a
phone number in there?
A. I have found out since then I could have put all zeros, but
I didn't know that at that time so I had to do something.
Q. So the phone number that's there is the body shop?
A. Right.
Q. And what other type of information do you take down from
the customer that you put on that form?
A. We ask when they need the truck.
Q. And what date did you put on this one?
A. That says 4-17-95. And what time. And unless they tell us
a different time, the time is normally 8:00. But if the
customer gives us another time, then we put that in.
Q. Did he give you that particular time?
A. Yes. He gave us that -- gave me that particular time.
Q. And what time is that?
A. 1600 hours, which is 4:00.
Q. 4 in the afternoon.
A. That's right.
Q. Okay.
A. And this date due would be the date given. The trip going
to Omaha was given -- he was given two days, but he did ask for
two additional days, so he had four days total. So that would
have been something that would have been obtained from him on
Vicki Beemer - Direct
the quote.
Q. All right. And the city, Omaha: Was that information
obtained from the customer?
A. That's right. He said he needed the truck to go to Omaha,
Nebraska.
Q. And was this a one-way, or a return?
A. It was a one-way.
Q. Okay. Do you normally do returns at all? People go one
way and then come back?
A. We have, yeah. We can do that. Those are just called
"long locals"; but he was not going to bring the truck back to
us.
Q. Is the normal practice that you rent your trucks one way to
a different city and it's turned in at the other city?
A. There again, there is nothing really normal. We've had
them go clear back East to Massachusetts as a long local. So
locals are normally just the -- in the Junction City area,
people moving from off base to Junction City or Junction City
to Fort Riley or whatever. Locals are normally going from
Junction City to another state or city.
Q. Okay. All right. Now, what other information that you put
on the form came from Mr. Kling?
A. That it was a one-way; that it was going to Omaha; that it
was going to be picked up on the 17th; that he had 212 miles.
Now, the 212 miles and the four days was not something that he
Vicki Beemer - Direct
told me. That was something the computer will do on its own.
Q. The computer figures up the mileage on its own?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay.
A. When you put in the destination, that comes on the next
screen as so many days and so many miles.
Q. Okay. And what other information came from the customer?
A. That he needed a handtruck.
Q. And -- excuse me?
A. That he did not want insurance because -- I would have
asked him that, and he said no.
Q. Now, is this something that you require people to take, or
it's an option that they can pay for?
A. It's an option.
Q. And Mr. Kling said no, he didn't want the insurance?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, as to handtruck, explain to the jury, if you will,
what -- do you rent the handtrucks in addition to the van?
A. Yes. They are not -- the trucks do not come with the
handtrucks in it. Those are used for washer, dryer,
refrigerator. They're appliance dollies, basically, is what
they are.
Q. Is there an additional charge for that?
A. Yes. There was a charge of $15.
Q. And what other information then came from the customer?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
A. That would -- I think that's all, because the rest of it is
done in the computer.
Q. All right. Now, did you have any further conversation with
Mr. Kling on that day, April 14?
A. Not that I can recall, no.
Q. Okay. And you didn't work the following day, April 15; is
that correct?
A. No, that's correct.
Q. When you came in the morning of April 17 -- you worked
Monday, April the 17th, didn't you?
A. That's right.
Q. What time do you normally come to work?
A. I usually get there around a quarter till 8.
Q. And did you receive any information either from Mr. Elliott
or in written form concerning this quote that you had made on
Friday?
A. When I got to work, there was a reservation on my desk
showing that a Mr. Kling had paid the deposit, actually had
paid the entire rental; and I posted it on our calendar board
when I got to work.
Q. What do you mean by posting it on the calendar board?
A. I wrote his name, I wrote the size of truck, that he needed
a handtruck, and I circled it because it was a one-way.
Q. And that's a board that you and the employees can see and
look at?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
A. That's right.
Q. All right. Now, if you would look in that envelope again,
and you will see a reservation form. And that should be 1709.
That is the number on it?
A. That's right.
Q. And is that the reservation form that you found in your
office on Monday morning?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And does it have Robert Kling's name on it?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, we would offer into evidence
D1709.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. WOODS: If I may publish it . . .
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, can you click that pen, Mrs. Beemer, to remove those
red marks.
Now, is this a business record that's kept there
within your business by people entering the entries in there?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. And this is a form that you found Monday morning?
A. That's right.
Q. Did you have a conversation with Eldon Elliott about it
Vicki Beemer - Direct
that morning, or did you just take it and act on it based on
what you read there?
A. I really don't remember if I talked to him, or I just saw
it on my desk and I knew what to do with it, so . . .
Q. Now, on this particular form, what information comes from
the customer that's entered in there? I assume you've done
these type of forms on a number of occasions.
A. That's right.
Q. People that come in and paid you the money; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Would you point out to the jury what information is put on
the form that the -- that the customer gives.
A. Eldon would have had to give the number here or the
address, because that was not on the quote, so he would have
had to get that from the customer.
Q. And would you read for the jury what address was put on the
form?
A. It's 420 -- I really can't read it very well. 428 M-A-P --
I'm sorry -- M-A-L-P Drive, Redfield, South Dakota.
Q. Okay. And the name is still there; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it Bob Kling or Robert Kling?
A. On this, it's Bob Kling.
Q. Okay. What other information is put on the form that comes
from the customer?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
A. The information on this side of the -- right in here for
the payments and everything: That was added to the -- he would
have paid the cash. As far as information given to him or
given to Eldon by him, there is no additional information that
was gotten.
Q. Okay. So the only information that the customer provided
on that date was the address. Is that correct?
A. That's true.
Q. And does it show a date and time that that form was entered
into the computer and printed out?
A. Not a time. It will have the date up there, which is
4-15-95.
Q. Now, does the customer sign this particular form when they
pay the money?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And what signature is on this form?
A. Robert D. Kling.
MR. WOODS: Okay. May it please the Court, at this
time the parties have agreed and stipulated that the signature
"Robert Kling" is the signature of Timothy McVeigh.
MR. MEARNS: That's our agreement, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. That's agreed.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, is there anything else on that form, Mrs. Beemer, that
the customer gives or that's unique to that date and time?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Kling come to your business, then, on
April 17?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Okay. And approximately what time was it?
A. He walked into the office. It was shortly after 4:15.
Q. Okay. And where were you seated?
A. I was seated at my desk.
Q. And did Mr. Kling arrive alone, or with someone?
A. There was somebody with him.
Q. Okay. And who was in the office with you at that time when
the two of them entered?
A. At the time, Tommy Kessinger was in the office.
Q. And where was Mr. Kessinger seated -- excuse me. Where was
he?
A. Where was he? He was seated in one of the chairs just to
the right of me.
Q. Okay. And Mr. Kessinger is an employee you mentioned
earlier?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. What is his function or occupation?
A. He was our mechanic at that time.
Q. Now, why was he seated next to you?
A. He was taking a late afternoon break. He had evidently
been working on something and gotten done later, and he was in
Vicki Beemer - Direct
there eating popcorn.
Q. Okay. Would you explain to the jury what your practice and
procedure there in Eldon Elliott's was as to the employees'
taking a break, morning break, afternoon break?
A. The employees all got a 15-minute midmorning break and
midafternoon break. It just kind of depended on what, you
know -- there wasn't a whistle that blew that told everybody
when to go, but it was just whenever, usually 10, 10:30, 3,
3:30. But, you know, it's not carved in stone. It's just
whenever they got around to it.
Q. And Mr. Kessinger was taking a late afternoon break?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you mentioned that it's 4:15. How are you able to
recall that time?
A. I -- well, No. 1 is because he was supposed to pick the
truck up at 4:00, and he was late getting in there.
Q. Okay. So had you focused on that? It's up on your board.
You mentioned to the jury that there is a 4:00 reservation.
A. I would have checked that during the course of the day or
even that morning when I put it on the board to see what time.
We check that sometimes periodically to make sure, you know,
what time they're coming in to --
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. If they don't show up when they're supposed to or when it's
in the computer. That's what that phone number is for, for us
Vicki Beemer - Direct
to get a hold of them and make sure that they still are going
to pick it up.
Q. Okay. Was there any other reference point you had as to
your recollection that he came in at 4:15?
A. Other than the date on the agreement form was -- it said --
the time said 4:19, which is when I would have accessed the
computer.
Q. Okay. Now, when the customer walks in, what do you do?
Let's start with Mr. Kling's transaction. What did you do when
Mr. Kling and the other individual walked in?
A. At some point -- and I don't recall whether he said "I'm
Mr. Kling, I'm here to pick up a truck" or I said "Are you
Mr. Kling?" It was determined at some point that he was here
to pick up a truck and that his name was Kling. And with that,
I got into the computer and pulled up his paperwork, and we
started right in on his agreement.
Q. Now, as soon as you get into the computer with the name,
does the computer print out a time?
A. Yes. As soon as I access it, the time that I would get
into it, because if you'll note on there, it has got a time
that it was accessed and then a time that it was actually
printed.
Q. Okay. And you mentioned the -- the form. If you would
look in that brochure again, you will find a form.
A. Uh-huh.
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. Which should be 1710. D1710. Is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Do you recognize that as the form that you typed up and
entered into a rental agreement with Mr. Kling?
A. That's correct.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, we would offer into evidence
Government's Exhibit -- excuse me -- Defense Exhibit 1710.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D1710 is received.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
THE COURT: May be shown.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, just for the record, there was
one photo which depicted the chart, which was 1703, which I
showed to the jury that she identified as the chart on the
wall. I don't think I mentioned that when I listed the series
of photos within her office; so we would offer that into
evidence.
THE COURT: Did you say D1703?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: We have no objection.
THE COURT: All right. It's received.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, I'm not sure if the jury can read this, Mrs. Beemer;
so if you would point out to the jury what information you
typed into the computer that prints out this rental agreement
Vicki Beemer - Direct
form.
A. In the driver's information here, that would have been all
the information I would have obtained from his driver's
license.
Q. Now, you mentioned driver's license. What is your practice
and procedure there about getting information from the
rental -- the renter?
A. When the rental agreement comes up, the first screen that
it comes to is the driver's license information; and so that's
the first thing we ask for is the driver's license.
Q. Okay. And you can't go forward without putting something
in that blank; is that correct?
A. That's right. That's right.
Q. Now, do you recall obtaining a driver's license from
Mr. Kling?
A. I don't specifically recall him handing it to me, but I
know he did.
Q. Okay.
A. Because I got the information.
Q. I take it it's not your practice to just take somebody's
verbal representation that they have a driver's license and
they give you some figure, some number off the top of their
head.
A. That's right. We always look at it.
Q. Would you tell the jury, then, what information you entered
Vicki Beemer - Direct
into the form from the driver's license.
A. I entered his name, the license number, the state, his date
of birth, and the expiration date and Social Security number.
Q. And what was the date of birth given on there?
A. It is 4-19 of '70, I believe. I can't read it very well.
4-19 of 1970.
Q. All right. Now, is there any other information that you
enter into the form that comes from the customer?
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. After entering that information into the form, what do you
next do?
A. In this case, since the rental was already paid, we just
print up the form, and it's presented to him to initial and
sign; and that's all there is to it.
Q. Okay. And did you present this form to him to sign?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did he sign it in your presence?
A. Yes, he did.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Again, your Honor, it's the
agreement and stipulation of the parties that the signature
"Robert Kling" on this form is the signature of Timothy
McVeigh.
MR. MEARNS: That's our agreement, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Accept that.
BY MR. WOODS:
Vicki Beemer - Direct
Q. Now, is there anything else on that form as to date and
time -- well, there is a time that you haven't mentioned. Is
there a time put on there at the completion of what you do to
the form, Mrs. Beemer?
A. I can't read what the time is on the top of there.
Q. Okay. Let me see if I can move it down, if it will help.
Maybe focus in.
Does that help at all?
A. I believe it says 4:22. So that time up there would have
been the time -- the completion time. The time down over on
the -- right in here -- that time right there would be the time
that I accessed my computer here.
Q. So you accessed it at 4:19?
A. 4:19, yeah.
Q. And then you show a completion time of 4:22?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Now, is there another form that is utilized and
filled out and signed by the company and the renter --
A. Yes, there is.
Q. -- in this transaction?
A. The safety inspection sheet.
Q. All right. And if you would look in the brochure, you'll
find that. And that should be D1712.
A. That's right.
Q. And is that the form that is signed by both the renter, or
Vicki Beemer - Direct
at least signed by the renter or initialed --
A. That's right.
Q. And is Robert Kling's signature or initial on that?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, we'd offer into evidence
D1712.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D1712 is received.
MR. WOODS: And may I publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, Mrs. Beemer, if you will, explain this form to the
jury and what is -- what information is put on the form by an
employees there at Eldon's and what information is put on the
form by the renter.
A. The customer will read these four -- this is four safety
rules here. They will read those four safety rules, and they
have to put their initials.
And the only thing that -- and then they have to sign
it down here.
Then the marks over here on the truck were done by
Mr. Elliott. That is indicating all of the damages that were
on the truck.
And this -- this right here is the rental agreement
Vicki Beemer - Direct
number. Those are my initials and the date.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that Mr. Elliott did the vehicle
inspection. Is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, would you tell the jury how it was that you had
Mr. Elliott do the vehicle inspection.
A. I don't really recall if I went out and got Eldon or if he
happened to be -- I don't recall. I just know that sometimes I
do very few of the walk-arounds, because I'm in the office
taking care of the other paperwork; so how it was determined he
did it -- he may have offered to do it. I really don't
remember, but he does most of or a lot of them.
Q. You can tell by this form that he did that one; is that
correct?
A. Yes. I can tell by the writing. Yes.
Q. Do you recall whether or not he came into the office where
you, Mr. Kessinger were, Mr. Kling and the other individual, to
get the form from you?
A. He would have had to get it from me in order to do that,
yes. As far as if I remember it, I really don't remember him
doing it, no.
Q. You don't remember any conversation that he had with
Mr. Kling there in your presence?
A. Not really, no.
Q. Now, do you remember saying anything to Mr. Kling as you
Vicki Beemer - Direct
were filling out the form, the information that came from his
driver's license?
A. Yes. When I typed his birth date down, his birth date
would have been 4-19 of '70, this being 4-17, I said, "You have
a birthday in a couple days."
And with that, he turned and faced the other
gentleman, put his elbow up on my counter, and there was no
other conversation after that.
Q. Okay. Do you remember him saying anything to the other
individual?
A. I don't remember any words. I know there was some
mumbling, but I don't remember what -- I don't know what he
said.
Q. Okay. Was there any question in your mind that the two of
them were together?
A. No, there was not.
Q. Okay. Now, do you recall whether or not Mr. Elliott came
back in and gave the form to you? Is that something you keep
in your file?
A. Yes. He would have to give me the form so I could have
given Mr. Kling his copy; so the form was brought back to me
and given to me, and then I would have given Mr. Kling his
copies and kept mine.
Q. Okay. And did Mr. Kling make that signature in your
presence?
Vicki Beemer - Direct
A. Yes, he did.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, again it's the agreement and
stipulation of the parties that the signature "Robert Kling" is
the signature or handwriting of Timothy McVeigh.
MR. MEARNS: That is our agreement, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, Mrs.