The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Wednesday, December 3, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 104)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:40 p.m., on the 3d day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
REID NEUREITER, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite
1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:40 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 1:40 p.m.)
THE COURT: Miss Martinez, if you'll resume the stand,
please.
Mr. Ryan, you may continue your questioning.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
(Mary Martinez was re-called.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Miss Martinez, I just have a few more questions for you.
A. Yes, sir.
Mary Martinez - Cross
Q. Originally when you were -- when you spoke to the FBI, you
told them that the date of the sighting was the day before the
bombing or April 18; is that correct?
A. I did.
Q. And today you've testified it's not April 18, it's
April 17?
A. Right.
Q. Did I understand you correctly?
A. Yeah.
Q. You've changed your testimony or your recollection based on
some information you reviewed from the hospital?
A. I reviewed, yeah, from Mr. Newtermeyer.
Q. Let me show you what's been received in evidence as
Defendant's Exhibit 1737. While we're waiting for it to come
on, let me ask you a question or two. You remember you told me
this morning that the truck that you saw that morning had this
cab part of the box that came over the top of the cab?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, do you see what -- the first one down, they get
increasingly smaller, in this Exhibit 1737?
A. Yep.
Q. You see that? And the only one that has something over the
cab is this second one?
A. Right.
Q. Do you see that?
Mary Martinez - Cross
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Where it says "one to two bedrooms"? You see what I'm
talking about?
A. Yes, I see it, sir.
Q. Is that the kind of cab -- is that the kind of compartment,
storage compartment over the cab that you were referring to?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Well, how did it differ from that, what you recall seeing?
A. I remember the Ryder truck being a great big Ryder truck.
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. And I can't remember the front of it.
Q. You remember when you told Mr. Bodley --
A. Yes.
Q. -- on October 17 that it had a extension compartment over
the truck cab?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Is that the type of extension compartment you were
referring to?
A. Yes.
Q. The one that's shown, the second one down here?
A. I guess, yeah.
Q. Okay.
A. But it was -- it looked like it was bigger than that one.
Q. But the other two bigger ones on this exhibit don't have
that extension --
Mary Martinez - Cross
A. I know.
Q. -- over the cab, do they?
A. No, they don't.
Q. All right. Finally, Mrs. Martinez, you've lived in
Junction City for how long?
A. About . . . about 12 years.
Q. And your husband is retired military, is he not?
A. Right. We lived on Fort Riley for 12 years.
Q. There's a lot of military people at Fort Riley; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Back in 1995, there were quite a few servicemen stationed
there, were there not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know how many?
A. No, sir.
Q. There would be 10-, 15,000 soldiers there at any one time,
would there not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And lots of moving in and out; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Lots of moving vans in Junction City at all times; is that
fair?
A. In the summertime, yes, sir.
Q. As these soldiers are coming in and out --
A. Right.
Mary Martinez - Cross
Q. -- of their assignments, there's a lot of storage vehicles
moving around the Junction City area?
A. That's what struck me odd was because it was so early in
the year.
Q. But you thought yourself, this was somebody moving, didn't
you?
A. Well, I looked at it and I said, "Somebody moving." And I
said -- I looked at the man driving and I said, "Oh, he's
military. They're starting early this year."
Q. And the reason you felt that way is there's a lot of people
in Junction City -- lot of men stationed at that Fort Riley --
A. Yes.
Q. -- with short haircuts, is there not?
A. Yes.
Q. And a lot of military people have military haircuts; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you've seen many, many people, men, every day in
Junction City with short, crew-cut hair?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. RYAN: That's all I have. Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Thurschwell, do you have some
follow-up?
MR. THURSCHWELL: Yes, I do.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Mary Martinez - Redirect
Q. Mrs. Martinez, you were just asked about the presence of
moving vans in Junction City and the fact that there's an Army
base there. When do you usually see moving -- moving vans with
military-looking people driving them?
A. Around June.
Q. Around June. And is that because that's the typical time
when the new recruits come in?
A. Yeah, June, July, and August.
Q. I want to show you once again what's been marked as
Government's Exhibit G318. Mrs. Martinez, is this what the
driver of the Ryder truck that you saw looked like?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen Timothy McVeigh in person?
A. No, sir.
Q. You could not, then, compare one certain sighting of
Timothy McVeigh with another sighting of Timothy McVeigh, could
you?
MR. RYAN: Objection, leading.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Now, you were asked about an interview that was conducted
with the FBI some time ago; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Mary Martinez - Redirect
Q. And you were asked some questions about your description of
the passenger in the truck to the FBI at that time. Do you
remember that?
A. Excuse me. Go ahead.
Q. Do you remember being asked about your descriptions of the
passenger when you were speaking to the FBI, by Mr. Ryan, just
now?
A. The first time or the second time?
Q. Well, he was asking you about the first time, I think.
A. Very first time, about a year and a half ago.
Q. Okay.
A. Or two years ago.
Q. And Mr. Ryan was just asking you about that and the things
that you told the FBI?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Do you remember telling the FBI at that time about the
passenger, one time he did raise up and appear to move his legs
in an effort to shift away from the driver?
A. I don't know if it was away or toward the driver. He was
trying to get situated on another sitting position.
Q. He was shifting from one side to another?
A. Yeah. I don't know whether it was away or to. I forgot
that part.
Q. When you said that the driver -- that the person stood up,
is that what you were referring to?
Mary Martinez - Redirect
A. Yeah, he stood up and moved over.
Q. Okay. Was he -- could you tell if he was fully erect or
that his knees were bent?
A. No, he was fully standing up.
Q. Okay. Was he -- was this individual, could you tell, an
adult or a child?
A. He was an adult.
MR. THURSCHWELL: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan?
MR. RYAN: No recross, your Honor.
THE COURT: I take it she's excused.
MR. THURSCHWELL: She is excused, your Honor, yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Nancy Kindle, your Honor.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Nancy Kindle affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Nancy Jean Kindle, K-I-N-D-L-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Nancy Kindle - Direct
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Hello, Miss Kindle. How are you?
A. Fine.
Q. We've met before, haven't we?
A. Yes.
Q. Over the last few days?
A. Yes.
Q. How old are you, Miss Kindle?
A. 22.
Q. Where are you from?
A. Junction City, Kansas.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. I work at Denny's, and I'm a home health aide.
Q. Do you go to college?
A. Yes.
Q. Where do you go to college?
A. At Cloud Community College.
Q. What are you studying?
A. Nursing.
Q. Do you have a son?
A. Yes.
Q. How old is he?
A. Six. Well, he'll be six in January.
Q. I want to take you back to the Easter time period of 1995.
Do you remember Easter, 1995?
Nancy Kindle - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have to work on Easter, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you working on Easter, 1995?
A. At Denny's.
Q. And what was your shift that day?
A. 6 a.m. till 2 p.m.
Q. Do you remember a specific group of individuals who came in
and tried to get seated that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell us about that.
A. I was waiting tables, and I wasn't busy, so I went up to
help the hostess. And I come across a three -- party of three
for smoking.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. Could we ask
Miss Kindle to keep her voice up just a little bit. I for one
am having just a little trouble hearing.
THE WITNESS: Sorry.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Actually, if you could lean towards that microphone, it
really helps.
A. Okay.
Q. So you just said you came up to a party of three, you were
helping out the hostess?
A. Yes.
Nancy Kindle - Direct
Q. And then what happened?
A. And I asked the gentleman how many, and he said three for
smoking. And I asked him to spell his name for me.
Q. And what did he say his name was?
A. McVeigh.
Q. And how did he spell his name?
A. M-C big V-E-I-G-H, or however it's spelled.
Q. Did you have some conversation with the gentleman about the
spelling of his name?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. Well, I was just commenting on how it was silly to have it,
you know, M-C and then a big letter and my aunt had a name like
that and just kind of just chitchatting.
Q. Was there a prior time when you testified in court?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall? And did you see a gentleman named Timothy
McVeigh when you testified that time?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that the same person that you saw on Easter Sunday,
1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And how do you know that that was the same person?
A. Because I remembered him by his eyes and the way he spelled
his name.
Nancy Kindle - Direct
Q. Now, you said it was a group of three?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a recollection of what the other two gentlemen
looked like?
A. The second man was about 5' 7", real scraggly hair, kind of
out of sorts. And the third one I didn't pay much attention to
at all.
Q. Were the gentlemen seated?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were they seated?
A. In non-smoking.
Q. Did you have a discussion with Mr. McVeigh about that?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. I was just kind of joking 'cause they had -- they had to
sit there and wait, and they was the last people waiting. And
we finally said, you know, "We have one open in non. You know,
would you take it?" And they finally said yes.
Q. And you see a lot of people at Denny's?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there a reason why you remember this encounter
specifically on Easter Sunday, 1995? Let me ask it this way.
Did you do something else on Easter Sunday, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go after you got off work?
Nancy Kindle - Direct
A. I went to get my son, and then I went home to get ready
'cause I was going to a Easter-egg hunt out at Milford Lake,
and I ran into him at the gas station.
Q. What time did you get off work?
A. About 3, 3:30.
Q. By the way, I'm not sure we fixed the time of the first
encounter. About what time would that first encounter have
been?
A. It was about 12:30, 1:00.
Q. Around the noon hour?
A. Yes.
Q. Easter Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that a busy time at Denny's?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that why you went to help the hostess?
A. Yes.
Q. So now getting to you got off work. What time did you get
off work that day?
A. About 3, 3:30.
Q. And then what did you do?
A. Then I went to get my son. And then I went home and
changed, and then I went to get gas.
Q. And there was an Easter-egg hunt that day?
A. Yes.
Nancy Kindle - Direct
Q. Is that where you were taking your son?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you go get gas?
A. At Texaco.
Q. Tell us about the encounter at Texaco.
A. I was walking in, and the gentleman -- he was walking out.
Q. Who was walking out?
A. McVeigh.
Q. And was it the same individual that you had seen earlier
that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say something to him at that time?
A. Yes. I said, "Hi, how you doing?" You know, "Hey, what's
going on?" And he spoke. And I walked in, and he walked out.
Q. What's the best that you can fix that second encounter in
your mind, to your recollection, given that he got off work
between 3, 3:30? What time around do you think it would have
been that you had that second encounter with Mr. McVeigh?
A. It was between 4:30.
Q. 4 and 4:30?
MR. RYAN: Objection, leading.
MR. NEUREITER: Sorry.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. What's your best recollection of that time?
A. In between 4:30.
Nancy Kindle - Direct
THE COURT: In between 4:30?
THE WITNESS: Well, I was supposed to be there at 5,
so I know I was trying to rush 'cause it's like a 15-mile
drive.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Around the 4:30 time period?
A. Yeah.
MR. NEUREITER: If I could have one moment, your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Where is the Denny's that you work at in Junction City?
A. It's on Washington.
Q. Is it near McDonald's there?
A. 1032 South Washington.
Q. Is there a -- is it near McDonald's there?
A. Yes, a block away.
Q. And are there two McDonald's in Junction City, to your
knowledge?
A. Yes.
Q. And which McDonald's is your Denny's near?
A. The one right beside the interstate.
MR. NEUREITER: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Nancy Kindle - Cross
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good afternoon, Miss Kindle. My name is Pat Ryan. I'm one
of the prosecutors in this case.
Did you get a call yesterday asking if you would agree
to talk to me about your testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you tell the lady that called that you wouldn't
agree to speak to one of the prosecutors?
A. I told her that I was supposed to be going on this
afternoon and she had my testimony and . . . she could just
read the testimony.
Q. Did you tell her that you wouldn't talk to one of the
prosecutors?
A. I told her that I was going on; I didn't want to, yes.
Q. Now, you've told us today that you saw a man who resembled
Timothy McVeigh; is that correct?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Have you previously said that you saw a man who resembled
Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. And what time was that?
A. What time I seen him?
Q. When you first saw that person?
Nancy Kindle - Cross
A. At 12, 12:30. I mean 12:30, 1. Sorry.
Q. And they were waiting in the smoking section?
A. No, they were waiting --
Q. Is that what you said?
A. They were waiting in the front of the restaurant.
Q. Were they in a section designated for smoking in your --
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Waiting --
MR. NEUREITER: Mischaracterizes the testimony.
THE COURT: He asked were they in a section for
smoking.
Is that your question?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS: No, they were in the front, right as you
walk in the door, waiting.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Do you have a recollection of them wanting to be seated in
the smoking section and the hostess, Miss D'Avino -- I may not
be pronouncing that correctly.
A. D'Avino.
Q. -- asking them if they would rather be seated earlier in
the non-smoking section?
A. Yes.
Nancy Kindle - Cross
Q. Now, you said you got off between 3 and 3:30; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this gentleman and the other two men -- were they still
there?
A. No, they had already left.
Q. And when had they left?
A. I wasn't really paying attention. I was trying to do side
work and go home, 'cause I wanted to get to my son.
Q. Was it close to 3:00 that they left, or do you know?
A. I couldn't tell you for sure.
Q. You said you looked at Mr. McVeigh's eyes?
A. Yes.
Q. Or the man that you saw, you looked at his eyes? What
color were his eyes?
A. Blue.
Q. The -- you said that you later saw this -- well, before we
do that, let's talk about the other two men that were with this
gentleman.
You said one of them was 5' 7" --
A. Yes.
Q. -- or so?
A. Yes.
Q. Short, brown hair?
A. No, the hair was not short.
Nancy Kindle - Cross
Q. Did you -- were you interviewed by Special Agent Marcus
Moet?
A. Yes.
Q. On April 29, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you tell Agent Moet the second individual was 5' 7"
with short, brown hair?
A. Scraggly, brown hair.
Q. My question was did you tell him that the second man was 5'
7" with short, brown hair.
A. I don't remember.
Q. Now, this third person -- how tall was he?
A. I don't remember.
Q. What color was his hair?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Length of his hair?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Any clothing that you can recall?
A. No.
Q. Color of his eyes?
A. No.
Q. Mustache or beard?
A. No.
Q. Don't recall? When you say "no," are you saying you don't
recall?
Nancy Kindle - Cross
A. I don't recall.
Q. So no matter what person I gave you, asked you if it was
that person, you wouldn't know because you have no picture
whatsoever in your mind of this person?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Could have been anyone?
A. Yes.
Q. And similarly, with respect to this person that was 5' 7"
with the brown hair, do you recall any other features of this
person?
A. I just remember he looked rough and kind of dirty.
Q. Weight?
A. He was medium build.
Q. Do you know how much he weighed? Do you have an estimate
for us?
A. No.
Q. Did he have any tattoos or marks?
A. No.
Q. No, you don't recall; or, no, he did not?
A. No, I don't recall.
Q. Do you know what race he was?
A. White.
Q. Can you tell us anything about his clothing?
Nancy Kindle - Cross
A. No.
Q. Now, you say that later that afternoon, you saw this same
man who had been in the Denny's at a Texaco; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were there to buy gas?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were running a little late for an Easter-egg hunt;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Easter-egg hunt was at 5:00?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have your son with you -- or your child?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's, what, about a 15-minute drive to where the
Easter-egg hunt was?
A. Yes.
Q. So when you said between 4:30, were you talking about 4:30,
4:45, something like that?
A. Yes.
Q. And was your car parked at one of the gas lanes where you
had just gotten gas?
A. Yes.
Q. You were going in to pay when you saw this gentleman again?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct? And he was walking out?
Nancy Kindle - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. As if he had just paid for gas or paid for something
inside?
A. Yes.
Q. It was a gas station; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you at any time, at this time frame of 4:30, 4:45
the Sunday afternoon, see a yellow Mercury Marquis?
A. No.
Q. Did you at any time that afternoon see a Ryder truck?
A. No.
Q. Did this man who you saw -- was he with these other two
people again?
A. All I saw was him.
Q. And did you talk to him?
A. I said hello as I was walking in, and he said hello back.
Q. You were in a hurry?
A. Yes.
Q. He was not?
A. He was walking out. I was walking in.
Q. He didn't appear to be in any hurry, did he?
A. I don't know how you can clarify "hurry."
Q. Was he walking particularly fast? Did he seem real focused
on where he was going? Did he seem like someone who was in a
rush?
Nancy Kindle - Cross
A. No.
Q. Did he seem like someone who was very determined to get in
a vehicle and make a long trip and just was very focused on
making that trip?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Did you ever see this man with a vehicle of any kind?
A. No.
Q. Or get into a vehicle?
A. No.
Q. You say this was 4:30 to 4:45?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: Thank you. No further questions, your
Honor.
MR. NEUREITER: Just a couple, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Miss Kindle, after you testified in the prior proceeding we
talked about, were you contacted by the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that a pleasant experience for you?
A. No.
MR. RYAN: Objection, your Honor.
Nancy Kindle - Redirect
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Is the reason why -- tell the jury why you decided not to
talk to the prosecutors this time.
A. Because I've been bothered by so many people that I didn't
know who was calling me, if it was reporters, who it was. And
I just wanted to be left alone. That's all I've ever asked.
I've asked reporters to give me and my family peace, especially
my son.
Q. The last time that you testified and you were then
contacted by the FBI, did the FBI get you to change -- try and
get you to change your testimony?
MR. RYAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Did you feel -- describe --
THE COURT: You can ask what they asked about --
MR. NEUREITER: Very well, your Honor.
THE COURT: -- but not characterize it.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Describe to the jury the conversations you had with the FBI
after your last testimony.
A. They just -- I put them on speakerphone so my family could
hear how they kept on asking me over and over if I'm sure I
didn't remember some or if I'm sure that that was the man I
Nancy Kindle - Redirect
seen. And then it started to get me irritated because they had
two of them on the phone talking back and forth; and finally, I
said, you know, "I've had enough," you know, "I'm home," you
know, "Can you -- sorry -- can you please leave me alone."
Q. Would they leave you alone?
A. They kept on asking me questions.
MR. NEUREITER: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. RYAN: Make I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Miss Kindle, the fact is you've been contacted twice in
your entire life about this matter by the FBI; is that correct?
A. No. They contacted my hotel about six times.
Q. To try to get you to talk to someone before you testified
in another trial?
A. No.
Q. Is that right?
A. No.
Q. And you at any time testify -- and you didn't talk to a
prosecutor the last time you testified either, did you?
A. No.
Q. And you wouldn't testify -- you wouldn't talk to a
prosecutor this time?
A. They didn't ask me last time.
Nancy Kindle - Recross
Q. You wouldn't even if they'd 've asked you?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. RYAN: No further questions.
MR. NEUREITER: The witness is excused.
Thank you, Miss Kindle.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Miss Weigel, Miss
Estella Weigel.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Estella Weigel affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Estella Weigel, W-E-I-G-E-L.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Hello, Miss Weigel. How are you?
A. Fine.
Q. We met for the first time a couple days ago; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Where are you from, Miss Weigel?
Estella Weigel - Direct
A. I live in Salina, Kansas, and I work in Newton, Kansas.
Q. How old are you?
A. I am 41.
Q. I hope you don't take offense at my asking.
A. I'm 41.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. I'm a health information management technician.
Q. And what does being a health information management
technician entail?
A. It makes -- what I do is I make sure that the completion of
the medical record is done, and I also know a little bit about
the regs. that require that the record be completed.
Q. In your view, does that job require attention to detail?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you consider yourself a detail-oriented person?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you a map that's been designated and I believe
admitted as D1732.
Have you seen this before?
A. Yes.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: That has not been admitted.
MR. NEUREITER: It's not been admitted?
It has not been admitted. Permission to approach,
your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: We have no objection to its admission.
Estella Weigel - Direct
THE COURT: All right. Now it is. D1732.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. You've seen this before?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a map of central Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there a way that you could describe for the jury both
where you live and where you work looking at this map? And if
you talk me through it, I'll walk through it with the pen.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the screen there by the jurors
does not show the --
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. TIGAR: There we go.
MR. NEUREITER: Now we're set.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: I live in Salina, which is an
intersection between -- well, a junction between Interstate 135
and Interstate 70.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Is this where Salina is on this map?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that I-70?
A. Yes.
Q. And the road going vertically north and south is?
A. 135.
Estella Weigel - Direct
Q. And where do you work?
A. I work at Newton. And it's by the junction of Interstate
135 and Highway 50.
Q. Is this Highway 50 down here?
A. Yes.
Q. And is this 135?
A. Yes.
Q. And if I put the pen right there, does that accurately
indicate where Newton is?
A. Yes.
Q. So what kind of a commute do you have each morning?
A. It's about a 60-mile commute.
Q. It's a long drive?
A. Yes.
Q. What time do you get up in the morning to go to work?
A. I usually get up -- I leave by 7:00, so I usually get up by
5:30.
Q. Okay. I want to take you back to the Easter time period,
1995. Did you have plans that Easter?
A. Yes. I went home to my parents' house which is in
Victoria, Kansas. And we celebrated my sister's birthday.
Q. And did you go to work on Monday, the day after Easter,
1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to work on Tuesday?
Estella Weigel - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. I didn't ask you, but what route do you take when you drive
to work?
A. I take Interstate 135.
Q. Do you take it down from Salina to Newton?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see something unusual on your drive to work Tuesday
after Easter, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Tell the jury what you saw.
A. Okay. It was real shortly after McPherson. I came upon a
slow-moving Ryder -- yellow Ryder truck, and in front of that
truck was a car without a license plate. There were two
occupants in the yellow Ryder truck and one occupant in the
car.
Q. What kind of car, if you recall, was it that you saw
without a license plate on that day?
A. It reminded me of my sister's '78 Mercury.
Q. And what color was it?
A. Beige.
Q. And you're on the interstate, you told us. How fast do
people usually travel on the interstate?
A. At that time it was about 65 miles per hour, and they've
raised it now.
Q. Was there something about the speed of automobile -- of the
Estella Weigel - Direct
vehicles that you passed that caused you to notice them?
A. Yes. They were moving very slowly, around 40 miles per
hour. There was also road construction that was beginning in
that area, and that is why I thought they were moving very
slowly was because of the contents of the Ryder truck.
Q. You came up behind them as you're driving south on I-35.
Describe for the jury -- stop action by stop action -- what
happened precisely as you passed the Ryder truck and the
yellow -- excuse me, I said yellow -- beige Mercury.
A. As I mentioned, road construction was beginning, and so the
road constructor workers were putting up the yellow
construction barrels. And I was coming upon the slow-moving
vehicle, and I was trying my best to judge the distance between
the point of where I could go and pass them. And as I was -- I
was behind them for a short period of time, and I finally was
able to pass them.
And as I was passing those two vehicles, I . . . I
glanced -- as I was passing, I glanced on -- at the driver of
the Ryder truck; and I also was using my rearview mirror and my
side mirror as I was going, passing those two vehicles. There
was not enough room between the car and the truck for me to go
in between and pass the car, so I basically ended up passing
the car.
When I noticed that there was no license plate on the
car, I looked to see if there was a temporary license, one of
Estella Weigel - Direct
those paper things, and I didn't see anything.
Q. Now, you said you looked at the driver of the Ryder truck
and you glanced at him. Did you get a look at the driver of
the car?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. And tell us your recollection of, to the best of your
ability here, a couple years after the fact, what the driver of
the car looked like.
A. It looks similar to the sketch that came out of John Doe
No. 2.
Q. Were you able to see -- you see Mr. Nichols here; right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Does that look like the driver of the Ryder truck to you?
A. No.
Q. Were you able to see the passenger of the Ryder truck?
A. Not very well. No.
Q. So you couldn't tell whether Mr. Nichols was the passenger,
or not?
A. No.
Q. Did there come a time when you contacted -- or did there
come a time when the FBI was informed of what you had seen?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us how that came about.
A. What happened was I -- after I had seen the sketches on the
TV, I went to my supervisor at work and told my -- I was
Estella Weigel - Direct
struggling to determine if I had information that might help
with the Oklahoma City bombing.
He knew the police chief of Newton and said he would
talk with him. He did talk with the police chief of Newton,
and the police chief of Newton told my boss that he thought it
was significant information.
He gave me a number for the FBI, and I tried that
number, and I got no answer. It was a while before I was able
to get an answer.
So I went ahead and looked up the phone number of the
Wichita FBI building office in Wichita. And I finally got an
answer, and I was told at that time the reason I didn't have --
didn't get an answer with the number that I was given by the
Newton police chief was because they were transferring from
building -- from one building.
Q. In any event, you did tell the FBI what you had seen?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you contact any newspapers or publicity to try and --
A. No, 'cause I didn't want to get involved.
MR. NEUREITER: Thank you very much for speaking with
us today.
Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Estella Weigel - Cross
Q. Good afternoon.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. My name is Pat Ryan. We haven't met, have we?
A. No.
Q. Are you a little nervous?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, there's some water there and some glasses you can't
see on the other side of that pitcher, if you'd care for a
drink of water.
Now, the date that you saw this Ryder truck did you
tell us was the 18th of --
A. 1995. It was a Tuesday.
Q. April 18, Tuesday, the day before the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you had -- at the time that you talked to the FBI, you
were trying to be helpful?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Wanted them to know what information you had seen?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't know whether it was significant or not, or even
if it was the same people that were involved in the bombing, or
Estella Weigel - Cross
not?
A. Right.
Q. But you were concerned enough that you wanted to let the
FBI know what you had learned, what you had seen?
A. Yes.
Q. And they sent an agent out to talk to you; is that right?
A. No.
Q. It was on the telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. In any event, during that conversation, you relayed to the
agent your best recollection of what you had seen?
A. Yes.
Q. Does the date May 2 sound about right; that would be about
two weeks after the bombing?
A. I know that is the date of the report the Agent Nolan
filed, yes.
Q. Does that sound about right to you?
A. I spoke with him on the 27th of April.
Q. You spoke with him on the 27th of April, all right. So you
spoke to him about eight days after the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you keep a note of this? Do you have notes of
your conversation?
A. No.
Q. Excuse me?
Estella Weigel - Cross
A. No.
Q. And at the time that you talked to him on the 27th, you had
seen and read, I assume, media reports about the Oklahoma City
bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct? And you had been familiar with the fact
that a Mercury had been driven by Timothy McVeigh, I take it?
You knew that?
A. I guess I don't understand your question.
Q. My question is at the time you talked to the FBI eight days
after the bombing, at that time had you seen media reports
stating that Mr. McVeigh was associated with a 1978 Mercury
automobile?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. Did you tell the Agent Nolan that you had seen the Mercury
on TV?
A. Yes.
Q. So you had seen the Mercury? Prior to the time that you
talked to the FBI, you had seen that on television?
A. Okay. It had to be that Friday or Monday. After the
bombing.
Q. All right. I'm not trying to confuse you now. So let's
just take it slow. My question is simply: At the time that
you spoke to the FBI agent on April 27, prior to that you had
seen reports in the media of Mr. McVeigh's Mercury automobile?
Estella Weigel - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And you knew that a Ryder truck was reportedly
the vehicle in which the bomb was delivered?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that as well?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And did you know that the truck was at least reported to
have been rented in Kansas?
A. I -- that's -- yes.
Q. And you'd seen these sketches of Un. Sub. 1 and 2 in the
newspapers or on television?
A. You mean the suspects?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Excuse me. I apologize. We're kind of used to that
vernacular. The sketches of John Doe 1 and 2, you'd seen those
on television?
A. Yes.
Q. And had you also seen in the media that the Mercury that
Mr. McVeigh was arrested in was reportedly seen without a tag
at the time of his arrest?
A. Yes. And that's the reason why I'm going "This is the car
and this is the truck." And that is when I decided to -- I was
Estella Weigel - Cross
struggling to determine if I needed to give this information to
the FBI.
Q. And you had -- did you also know that Mr. McVeigh
reportedly had a gun on him at the time he was arrested?
A. I believe it was a weapon, yes.
Q. Right. You didn't know what kind, you just knew it was a
firearm?
A. Yes.
Q. And so everything that you had seen or heard in the media
you saw that morning of the 18th; correct?
A. Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. You saw --
MR. NEUREITER: I'm not sure there's been any
testimony about Mr. McVeigh, the person she saw, having a
weapon.
THE COURT: Well, the objection is overruled.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. On the date of the 18th, you saw the Ryder; correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you'd earlier heard about that on the media?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You saw the Mercury? You'd earlier heard about that on the
media?
Estella Weigel - Cross
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You saw no tag on the Mercury? You'd earlier heard about
that on the media; is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You saw this person who resembled John Doe 2? You'd heard
about that on the media; right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you saw a firearm that day, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. In one of the vehicles?
A. Yes.
Q. And you'd heard about that on the media?
A. Yes.
Q. Now -- did you give any details to the agent about what
this person driving the Mercury looked like?
A. I said it resembled the sketch of John Doe No. 2.
Q. I understand you said it resembled the sketch; but did you
tell the agent what it was that you saw, what the person looked
like?
A. No, I did not tell the agent.
Q. Do you have a recollection of that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And did you see the sketch yesterday?
A. No.
Q. Have you seen the sketch since you've been here in Denver?
Estella Weigel - Cross
A. No.
Q. Could you tell us how much the person weighed?
A. No.
Q. Or how tall he was?
A. That would be kind of difficult.
Q. Do you recall the length of his hair?
A. Yes. It was right above the ear, and the length was about
right below the earlobe.
Q. Did he have a ball cap on?
A. Yes. It was turned backwards.
Q. And did you see the color of the ball cap?
A. I don't recall.
Q. And you previously to this day had seen John Doe 2
photograph with a ball cap on backwards, I take it?
A. Yeah. At the time of the . . .
Q. Now, was the time that you saw this event on the interstate
on the 18th of April -- was that about 7:45 in the morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you know where Junction City is; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And are you familiar with the McDonald's in Junction City
at I-70 and Washington Street?
A. No.
Q. Well, let me ask it this way: Could a person who was at
McDonald's at 7:30 in the morning on the 18th travel to where
Estella Weigel - Cross
you saw this event by 7:45?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection.
THE COURT: Well, if you know the answer to that, you
can answer it.
THE WITNESS: I don't know it.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Do you know the distance between Junction City and where
you were?
A. I know the distance between Salina and Junction City is
about an hour's drive, and the distance between Salina and
McPherson is about a half hour's drive.
Q. So how far does that make you from Junction City?
MR. NEUREITER: Again, your Honor, as the crow flies,
it's not clear.
THE COURT: If that's an objection, it's overruled.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. How far from Junction City was it to where you saw these
vehicles? Approximately. I'm not asking for a specific mile.
Just approximate.
A. I guess 90 sounds good.
Q. About 90 miles?
A. Yeah.
Q. It would be at least an hour, maybe an hour and a half from
Junction City to where you saw these vehicles?
Estella Weigel - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. So you know it would not be possible to get from Junction
City to where you saw these vehicles in the length of time from
7:30 to 7:45; is that fair?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: No further questions. Thank you for
answering my questions.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. NEUREITER: A moment, your Honor.
No more questions, your Honor.
Thank you, Miss Weigel.
THE COURT: You may -- I take it she's excused.
MR. NEUREITER: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Rose Mary Zinn.
THE COURT: Miss Zinn.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Rose Mary Zinn affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Okay. It's Rose Mary Zinn, Z-I-N-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Miss Zinn, how are you?
A. Nervous.
Q. We met for the first time a couple days ago; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Where are you from, Miss Zinn?
A. Lost Springs, Kansas.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have children?
A. Yes. Four.
Q. Four children?
A. Five grandchildren.
Q. What do you do for a living presently, Miss Zinn?
A. School bus driver.
Q. What have you done in the past?
A. I've been a clerk, waitress, fry cook.
Q. I want you to think back to the April of 1995 time period
and tell us what you were doing then.
A. I was working at Tie Meiers. It's a grocery store in
Lincolnville.
Q. I'm going to show you a map that's been previously admitted
Rose Zinn - Direct
as D1732. Have you seen that map before?
A. Yes. Do you want to know where Lincolnville is?
Q. I'd like you to tell us where Lincolnville is.
A. It's right in between Herington and Marion. It's exactly
12 miles from Marion and 12 miles from Herington.
Q. So it would be around where the pen is?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is the road that connects Marion and Herington?
A. 77.
Q. Now, is Lincolnville right on 77?
A. Well, it's just to the side, but . . .
Q. How much to the side?
A. It's right there. It's sitting there.
Q. Is your store right on 77, the Tie Meiers store?
A. No.
Q. Where is that located?
A. It's about a -- let's see. About two blocks from 77.
West.
Q. What were your working hours when you were there in April,
1995? What were the working hours?
A. 8 in the morning to 5:30 in the afternoon.
Q. Did something happen that you remember the day after
Easter, 1995?
A. Yeah.
Q. Can you tell the jury about that.
Rose Zinn - Direct
A. Okay. Well, my boss just went to lunch, and I was there by
myself, and these two guys came in the front door. And in
Lincolnville, you always know strangers 'cause there's no
strangers.
Q. How big is Lincolnville?
A. Oh, it's probably got maybe 200.
Q. 200 people?
A. That's probably exaggerating.
Q. Including cats and dogs?
A. Well, yeah.
Q. So you were there, a couple people came in?
A. Yeah, these two guys. One was blond and white, and the
other one was a dark-complected guy.
Q. Can you describe the facial features of the two men?
A. Not --
Q. Any more than you just have?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did it cause you some concern to have two people
come in that you hadn't seen before?
A. Yeah. Well, the dark-colored guy looked mean. So I know
this might sound silly, but I thought, uh-oh, I'm going to be
robbed.
Q. Is that why you remember that event?
A. Yep.
Q. Did they buy anything?
Rose Zinn - Direct
A. Yeah.
Q. What did they buy?
A. Well, I think they bought cigarettes and pop. I know they
bought pop, but I'm not sure on the cigarettes.
Q. After they made their purchases, what did they do?
A. They just -- they left.
Q. And what did you do?
A. I went up to the front of the store to see where they was
going, and they got in a Ryder truck.
Q. Did you follow them out to see what vehicle they were
getting in?
A. Yeah. Well, they -- the front's all window, and that truck
was setting right there in front. It was facing west. It
wasn't parked diagonal.
Q. Can you describe the truck a little bit, best you recall?
A. Yeah. Well, I'd say it would hold -- well, now, when we
moved, we used U-Hauls. We could get five rooms of furniture
in it. But it was probably about three-room.
Q. Three-room Ryder truck?
A. Yeah. It was just square, no overhang, no . . .
Q. Did it have a van front or a truck front?
A. Truck front.
Q. Truck front. I'm going to show you a brochure --
MR. NEUREITER: Actually, one moment, your Honor.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Rose Zinn - Direct
Q. Soon we will show you a brochure --
A. Okay.
Q. -- with a number of Ryder trucks. We'll ask you to pick
out the one that you think best matches.
I'm going to show you a black-and-white copy of what
has previously been admitted as D1737.
A. It would be the third one from the top.
Q. And you say -- we found it. Now I'm going to show you a
color copy of the same thing previously admitted as D1737.
A. Still the third one.
Q. And it will be the third one from the top?
A. Yeah.
Q. And if I zoom in, can you tell me how many bedrooms that
particular truck will hold?
A. That says three.
Q. Okay. Now, to the best of your recollection, how tall were
the two individuals who came in?
A. See, I'm not good with guessing heights, but the dark guy
was pretty tall and the white guy wasn't. He wasn't real tall.
Q. So that's the best of your recollection?
A. Yeah.
Q. But you're not very good at guessing heights?
A. No. I couldn't even guess your height. You're tall.
MR. NEUREITER: I thank you for coming in today.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
MR. NEUREITER: And I think I pass the witness, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ryan.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good afternoon, Miss Zinn.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. How are you?
A. Fine. Better.
Q. Mrs. Zinn, when you -- after the Oklahoma City bombing, you
knew that Ryder truck was associated with that, you read that
in the paper?
A. I saw it on TV.
Q. Right. And because you had seen a Ryder truck around the
time of the bombing, you called in to the FBI to give them your
information?
A. Well, I didn't call FBI.
Q. How did they get in touch with you?
A. My boss -- she lived in -- she lives in Nebraska, and she
come down; and I was telling her about it, and she went to the
phone and called them.
Q. Was that with your permission?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And you recall this event and recall telling it to
the FBI around May 11; does that sound about right?
Rose Zinn - Cross
A. I couldn't tell you. I don't remember when I --
Q. Couple --
A. It was a little bit after the bombing.
Q. Couple weeks after the bombing?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And do you recall telling the special agent --
was it by telephone?
A. No, he came to the store.
Q. Was this James Keely or Kiely?
A. Could have been.
Q. Do you remember telling this FBI agent that the white
gentleman that you saw was about 5' 7"?
A. No. Really, after I got -- talked to -- the FBI said that.
'Cause I told him, the manager there at the store, that was --
he was about that height, and he put down 5' 7".
Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you just said.
A. The FBI agent put down 5' 7". I didn't say he was 5' 7".
Q. Did you not just say yesterday that the man was 5' 7"?
A. Yeah. Well, I told you that. Then I got to thinking that
I had told the FBI agent that my boss was about the height, and
the FBI agent wrote down 5' 7".
Q. How tall is your husband?
A. He's probably about 5' 10".
Q. And this -- the white man that you saw was a good deal
shorter than your husband; fair?
Rose Zinn - Cross
A. Well, he was shorter.
Q. Shorter than 5' 10"?
A. Yeah.
Q. And the darker man who was with him was taller than the
white man?
A. Right.
MR. RYAN: I believe that's all I have, your Honor.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Anything else of this witness?
MR. NEUREITER: I don't believe so, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. I take it she's excused, then.
MR. NEUREITER: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You are excused.
Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Darrell McCaleb.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Darrell McCaleb affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Darrell McCaleb, M-C-C-A-L-E-B.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
Q. Hello, Mr. McCaleb. How are you?
A. Hello.
Q. We met for the first time a couple of days ago?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Where are you from, Mr. McCaleb?
A. Junction City.
Q. Where did you grow up?
A. I grew up in Dwight, Kansas.
Q. How old are you?
A. 43.
Q. What is your line of work?
A. Electrical contractor. Electrician.
Q. Do you have experience with DRMO at Fort Riley, Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. Why do you have that experience?
A. We oftentimes go out, we look for items for the business.
Q. How often do you go out?
A. I try to go every month.
Q. How long have you been going out every month?
A. I've been probably three years -- two-and-a-half, three
years now.
Q. Do you recall attending a viewing session at the DRMO on
the 18th of April, 1995?
A. Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: I'd like to show the witness an
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
exhibit, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: Show the witness Government 1956.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Have you seen that before?
A. Yes, I have.
THE COURT: Well, you can't have this little private
conversation.
MR. NEUREITER: I'm sorry.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. I'm displaying now what has been previously marked and
admitted, I believe, as G -- Government Exhibit 1956. Can you
tell us what this document is?
A. It's a sign-in sheet.
Q. Sign-in sheet for what?
A. For the DRMO inspections. Sales.
Q. You previously identified your signature on this document.
A. Not on this one. But, yes, I have.
Q. Well, let me turn -- I'm turning to the second page, third
page, fourth page, fifth page. I'm zooming in. What do you
see there, sir?
A. That's my signature.
Q. Does that indicate that you signed in at the DRMO --
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. -- on 4-18, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Look over at the -- is this the time that you would have
signed in --
A. Yes, it is.
Q. -- to your knowledge?
What does it say down at the bottom for when you
signed in?
A. I believe 10:50.
Q. Let me move over. There's your name.
A. 10:50.
Q. 10:50. And what is your practice when you go to the DRMO,
sir, in terms of viewing items?
A. Well, I try to go by the way they're listed in the
catalogue.
Q. On this particular date, did you notice that the person --
tell us what you noticed about the person who sometimes mans
the sign-in desk?
A. They left their post. They left the sign-in desk.
Q. Why did you remember that?
A. Well, I thought it was kind of strange, 'cause they usually
have somebody there for the items that they have by the sign-in
desk.
Q. While you were there, did you notice that the person left
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
their post?
A. Yes.
Q. And have you observed that -- excuse me. You have been
there how many times, would you say, in the last three years?
A. I'd say 15 or 20. Probably 15.
Q. And have you observed that on a number of occasions?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. So in your experience, is the person at the sign-in desk
always there?
A. Not always.
Q. And on this particular occasion, did you notice people
entering the DRMO without signing in?
A. Don't recall that.
Q. Do you recall talking to the FBI on 6-17, 1995?
A. Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: And I'd like to refresh his
recollection, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may show it to him.
MR. NEUREITER: I'm asking the witness to look at the
last paragraph.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Having seen that, does that refresh your recollection that
on 6-18, 1995, a lot of people arrived during this period and
walked into the sale without signing the log?
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: I'm going to object to Counsel reading
from the document.
THE COURT: He asked a question. The objection was
overruled.
What was your answer?
THE WITNESS: Repeat the question, please.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Having looked at this document, does that refresh your
recollection that on this date, 4-18, 1995, you noticed a lot
of people arrive during this period and walked into the sale
without signing the log?
A. If that's what I said, yes.
THE COURT: Well, no, that isn't. The question is
whether you remember that. Not what you read here. Do you
remember that, from that day?
THE WITNESS: No, I really don't remember that.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. You do remember that the person was not at the desk,
though?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Mr. McCaleb, is there a place where someone can get a soda
or a candy bar there at the DRMO?
A. I believe there is, yes.
Q. And where is that location?
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
A. I'd say in the northeast corner of the building.
Q. Would it help you if I showed you a map of the DRMO area?
A. Yes, it would.
Q. I'm going to show you a document that I do not believe has
been admitted into evidence. It's marked for identification as
D172.
I'm not going to show it to the jury. Have you seen
this before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And does that fairly and accurately represent the layout of
the DRMO and in the salvage storage area?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. NEUREITER: Move the admission of D172, your
Honor.
MR. GOELMAN: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. D172.
MR. NEUREITER: If I could ask the marshal for the --
admission (sic) to publish, your Honor.
THE COURT: You want to put it on the easel?
MR. NEUREITER: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. If you could describe --
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NEUREITER: Your Honor, if it would be easier, if
I could question --
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
THE COURT: I think it works better if you put it at
the end of the jury box here --
MR. NEUREITER: Very well.
THE COURT: -- as we have other exhibits.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Can you see that, Mr. McCaleb?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. McCaleb, D172, you've just described as a map of the
DRMO area. What is the big, shaded rectangle there?
A. That's the building that contains the offices and the --
some of the items for sale.
MR. NEUREITER: Okay. If the witness, your Honor,
could have a microphone, I think it would be easier for him to
get down and demonstrate.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NEUREITER: Thank you.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Okay. If you could step down.
There's an area on that document that's marked
"salvage storage." Could you explain to the jury what that is.
A. This is the area where they have outside items for viewing.
Q. And is there a gate by which customers access that area?
A. Yes. Right there.
Q. Is there a sign-in desk at that gate?
A. No, there is not.
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
Q. If you're interested in outside items, are you required to
sign in before going through that gate?
A. No. Before you go to that gate, no.
Q. Now, we were talking before about the big rectangle.
Explain the various doors that you are aware of that allow
entry into that big rectangle and tell us what the rectangle
is, please.
A. This is the building -- contains the offices plus the items
for inside viewing.
Q. Where would the doors be if you were going to sign in to
look at items on the inside?
A. Normally, they got a door to each one of these; and it's
usually at one of those doors.
Q. Now, is there a door facing out onto the salvage storage
area, the outside area?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And what does that door lead to?
A. It leads to a big room with tables.
Q. And are there soda machines in that room?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Is there a candy machine in that room?
A. I believe so.
Q. Can you wait in that room if the weather's bad?
A. Yes, you can.
Q. Will they kick you out of there?
Darrell McCaleb - Direct
A. No, I don't believe so.
Q. If -- is that door immediately accessible from the outside
area? In other words, do you have to go into the building by
another entrance, or can you get into that room from the
outside area?
A. You can get in from the outside.
MR. NEUREITER: Thank you, you can have a seat now.
Pass the witness, your Honor.
Do you want the exhibit up?
If I may retrieve the exhibit, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Mr. Goelman.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. McCaleb.
A. Hi.
Q. You said that one of the reasons you remembered that no one
was at the sign-in desk was that it was unusual; is that right?
A. I thought it was unusual, yes.
Q. And the reason for that is that the overwhelming majority
of the time there is someone at the sign-in desk, isn't there?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you've been to DRMO most months for the last
several years; isn't that right?
Darrell McCaleb - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Each time you went to DRMO, you signed in, didn't you?
A. That's correct.
Q. Each time you went to DRMO, there was someone at the
sign-in desk?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Each time you went to DRMO, after you parked, you
immediately signed in; isn't that right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you ever spend six hours wandering around the yard
before you signed in?
A. No.
Q. Each time you went to DRMO, sir, you spent less than an
hour total, both inside and outside; isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Defense counsel showed you a diagram -- I believe it was
defense 172 -- of a map of the DRMO; is that right?
Now, is that entire area labeled "salvage" on that map
open to customers on viewing days?
A. Yes, I believe it is.
Q. Is that area divided up based on which particular section
is for sale on viewing days?
A. They usually have it divided, yes.
Q. In fact, you've gone into an area where there were items
that were not for sale before, have you not?
Darrell McCaleb - Cross
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And within a minute or two, you were instructed to go to
the area where the sale items were; isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And who instructed you to do that?
A. One of the employees.
Q. One of the DRMO employees, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. You testified that there -- you have seen the sign-in table
where there was not someone sitting right there; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you noticed this because you were already in the
warehouse and you'd look up and there was nobody sitting behind
the table; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. That doesn't necessarily mean that there weren't any
employees in the area, in the warehouse itself, does it, sir?
A. No, it doesn't mean that.
Q. And the DRMO employees: They don't wear uniforms, to your
knowledge, do they, sir?
A. No.
Q. You're not familiar with the identity of all the DRMO
employees?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. And sitting here today, you don't remember ever seeing
Darrell McCaleb - Cross
anyone walk in without signing in, do you, sir?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Sir, do you still have the sign-in log up there?
A. No, I don't.
MR. GOELMAN: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you turn to -- I think it was the third page, where
you signed in.
I believe it was the back of the third page, the last
entry.
A. It's farther down than that.
Sixth page.
Q. Sixth page?
A. Yes.
Q. And what time does your sign-in indicate, sir?
A. 10:50.
Q. Now, is that approximately the right time that you recall
from your independent recollection of signing in on April 18,
1995?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you remember what the weather was like that day?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you remember what the size of the sale was, sir?
A. No. I don't remember that particular size, no.
Darrell McCaleb - Cross
Q. Now, you first heard of the bombing in Oklahoma City on
April 19, is that right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And shortly thereafter, the FBI came out to talk to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they tell you how they found you, sir?
A. Uh-huh. Yes, they did.
Q. And was that through the sign-in sheet?
A. Yes.
Q. If you could, could you count the number of entries on the
sheet? There should be nine. Just tell me if I'm right that
there are nine entries on each sheet.
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And could you turn now, sir, to the 93d entry. I think
it's the eighth page, and it's at 12:50 sign-in.
A. Okay.
Q. That indicates, does it not, a sign-in of someone using the
name "Terry Nichols" at 12:50 p.m.? It's about halfway down
the page, I think, the third entry on that page?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And that's a full two hours after you signed in?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, the time the FBI came out to see you, you had already
seen Terry Nichols' picture on television; is that right?
A. Yes.
Darrell McCaleb - Cross
Q. And they asked you, did they not, if you had seen
Mr. Nichols at the April 18, 1995, sale at DRMO?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. You told them you didn't remember seeing Mr. Nichols there;
isn't that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you, Mr. McCaleb, went to both the inside and the
outside area; isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Defense Counsel asked you about a room where there's a
Coke machine; and there's also vending machine for snacks.
What kind of snacks are in that vending machine?
A. Couldn't tell you. I've never used it.
Q. There's no coffee shop at the DRMO, is there?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. Have you ever been at the DRMO without a vehicle for six
hours, sir?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Have you ever been at the DRMO without a vehicle at all?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Have you ever seen people just sitting in that room
drinking Cokes and eating potato chips for six hours?
A. No, I have not.
Q. You don't know, do you, sir, where Terry Nichols was from
8 a.m. to 12:50 p.m. on April 18, 1995?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained, objection.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. NEUREITER: No, your Honor.
Thank you, Mr. McCaleb.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Robert O'Connell.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Robert O'Connell affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Robert Hugh O'Connell. O apostrophe
C-O-N-N-E-L-L.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Hello, Mr. O'Connell. How are you today, sir?
A. Okay.
Q. Where are you from, Mr. O'Connell?
A. I live in Jewell, Kansas.
Robert O'Connell - Direct
MR. NEUREITER: Hold on one moment.
If I may approach one moment, a matter with respect to
this witness.
THE COURT: All right.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 104B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
Robert O'Connell - Direct
(In open court:)
THE COURT: Proceed.
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Mr. O'Connell, where are you from?
A. Jewell, Kansas.
Q. Where is Jewell, Kansas?
A. North and west of Salina, Kansas, about 60 miles west,
further west of Junction City.
Q. What do you do for a living, sir?
A. I'm a registered nurse.
Q. And what have you done in the past?
A. I owned a Radio Shack for a number of years. I've been in
the military. That's pretty much it.
Q. When did you get your nursing degree?
A. In '94.
Q. And since that time, have you been a practicing registered
nurse?
A. I've practiced as a registered nurse; that's correct.
Q. Do you attend the DRMO at Fort Riley on occasion?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And what is the basis of your interest in the DRMO?
A. When I went and requested the catalogues be sent to my
home, I was considering getting back into an electronics
service business.
Q. How many times would you say you've attended the DRMO?
Robert O'Connell - Direct
A. Probably eight to ten times.
Q. Do you recall attending the DRMO on April 18, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to show you an exhibit marked G19 -- Government
Exhibit 1956, and the second-to-last page of that.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yeah, the sign-in sheet.
Q. And if I zoom in?
A. That's my name and is my signature.
Q. And what time does it say that you signed in?
A. 1434, I would say is what that says. Which would be 2:34
in the afternoon.
Q. Mr. O'Connell, do you have a particular interest in the
different areas at the DRMO?
A. When I was going to DRMO, I was looking, as I mentioned,
for electronic test equipment. The other areas that I looked
at -- I looked for tentage, GP medium, GP small army tents. I
looked over some of the canisters that they put the rebuilt
diesel engines in. And I paid some attention to some of the --
they're called 880's, they're a Dodge pickup truck that was
used by the National Guard for a number of years.
Q. Are those latter items that you talked about located in the
inside area, or the outside area of the DRMO?
A. The 880's, the 10-inch definitely on the outside. The
Robert O'Connell - Direct
canisters for the motors are also on the outside.
Q. What was your practice from the eight to ten times that you
visited the DRMO in terms of which area you would visit first?
A. Generally when I got there on an inspection day -- and
understand, I didn't go there just to go and inspect stuff; I
was usually doing something else -- I would get there, park in
the parking lot across from the gate entrance, and go directly
to the outside area. The only opportunity I had to go
inside -- or the only times I went inside was if there was
something inside that I wanted to look at.
Q. Were there occasions that you attended the DRMO when you
didn't sign in at all?
A. Yeah, that's correct.
Q. And why was that?
A. Because I never went into the inside.
Q. So is it your testimony that if you go into the outside
area, there would be no record of your being there?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you recall this specific sale date?
A. I have a lot of difficulty recalling the exact date. Being
able to look at the sign-in sheet helped me recall the date. I
have very vivid memories of certain parts of that sale. A lot
of that day is foggy to me at best as far as exact times and
incidents. I have a kind of a recollection of the overall day.
Q. It was a long time ago?
Robert O'Connell - Direct
A. Yeah.
Q. Tell me a little bit about your practice in terms of
looking at items in the outside area, in terms of what aisles
you would go down, what you would look at.
A. Well, in the outside area, they have aisles laid back and
forth. They have lot numbers laid out on those aisles. My
general -- if I was going, for example, to look at tentage, I
would walk down the aisle till I saw a tent that I wanted to
look at. I would quickly open it up, look through it. If I
was -- if I saw something that really struck my eye, a tent
that look good for example, I might spend some other time,
unfolding the cover, looking at the center-pole areas of the
tent that are most likely to rip and be the faulty area of the
tent.
Q. Were you pretty meticulous in inspecting the things that
you were interested in buying?
A. Not overall. No. It was pretty quick.
Q. Are there certain aisles that are for sale on a particular
sale and other aisles that are not for sale on a particular
sale?
A. My understanding -- and this is my understanding before I
talked to anyone up here -- was that if an item was for sale,
it had a lot number on it. The aisles that I went down
generally had lot numbers. However, it was not unusual, like
when I go back to look at if they have military vehicles on a
Robert O'Connell - Direct
lot of the sales, to walk past the other lots; if there was
something that caught my eye, go over and look at it.
Q. Have you in your eight to ten times visiting the DRMO gone
down aisles quite frequently where you were looking at items
and they weren't for sale that particular day?
A. That's correct. Items that did not have lot numbers on
them, yeah. Because you knew that was coming up on a sale.
Q. And was that of interest to you to see what was coming up
on a future sale?
A. Lot of times, yes.
Q. And how many of the eight to ten times that you've been to
the DRMO did you go and look at items that were coming up on
future sales?
A. I would . . . to be very honest, I would say probably every
time, because it was my routine or my habit to always go back
and look and see what they had in the military vehicles; and
usually as I came back from that area, I would walk down -- I
generally passed the lot-number items on my way out, came past
the other things just to see what was there.
Q. And of those eight to ten times that you've done that, how
many times did somebody confront you and tell you you weren't
in the right area?
A. Are we talking about inspection days?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Never.
Robert O'Connell - Direct
Q. You don't work for the DRMO, do you?
A. No.
Q. You're not going to get in trouble -- if you tell us
truthfully that the regulations aren't enforced?
A. I hope not.
Q. Do you know if there is a -- have you ever gone into the
bidding office?
A. That -- the bidding office is -- what I'm calling the
bidding office is the first door with the little ramp that you
go up to the door. I've been in there once.
Q. Do you have any recollection whether they sell soda or
candy in there?
A. No, I don't, I'm sorry.
MR. NEUREITER: A moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: Pass the witness, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Goelman.
MR. GOELMAN: A moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good afternoon.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. You done drinking?
A. Yeah.
Robert O'Connell - Cross
Q. You've been out at the DRMO eight to ten times, sir?
A. That would be correct.
Q. And fair to say that you spend average about 45 minutes
inside the DRMO when you go?
A. On an average trip. If there wasn't much to look at that I
saw as something that I wanted to look at or spend some time
with, that would be fair, yes.
Q. I'm not talking about any particular trip. Just on the
average, overall, is 45 minutes fair?
A. That was my estimate earlier. In rehashing, if you will,
going to the DRMO, I don't know how I would get an average,
'cause there were times that I would walk through everything in
there in 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and there were other times
that I spent more time looking through stuff.
Q. Is it fair to say that your average amount of time that you
spent outside was less than the average amount of time that you
spent inside?
A. No, that would not be.
Q. You wouldn't characterize the average amount of time that
you spent inside as less than 45 minutes?
A. Are we talking about inside?
Q. No, outside.
A. I would say -- I don't know how to average that. It would
depend on what was there.
Q. Okay. Do you recall in October, 1996, having a telephone
Robert O'Connell - Cross
conversation with John W. Hough, investigator for Mr. Nichols'
team?
A. After having discussed that call, yes, I remember having
the call. I don't remember specifically a lot of the
particulars of that call.
MR. GOELMAN: Okay.
May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. I'm showing you the second page of the memorandum from that
particular interview. Could you just read that and see if that
refreshes your recollection that you told the investigator for
the defense that your average -- the average amount of time you
spent outside is less than 45 minutes?
A. Yes. It says, "O'Connell estimated" --
THE COURT: Don't read it out loud.
THE WITNESS: Oh, excuse me.
That's in effect what that says.
MR. GOELMAN: Okay, thank you.
May I approach --
THE COURT: I think you're being asked what you
remember.
THE WITNESS: In the phone call, I believe I tried to
explain to the -- Mr. Hough? Is that the name? -- my -- I'm
going to say "routine," for lack of a better word --
Robert O'Connell - Cross
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: -- at the DRMO. That there were times
that I would come in, spend 30 minutes, walk through. There
wasn't an awful lot I was interested in. I walked back to see
what was in the military vehicle section, and leave. And those
times, 30, 45 minutes.
I'm not sure that that isn't where that came from. If
there was 10-inch that I wanted to look at, engines, I wanted
to look at the little numbers, see where they were rebuilt, it
took longer.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. O'Connell, my question is only whether you remember
telling the investigator that.
A. Specifically, no. I'm sorry, I see this, and I just don't
remember the -- I don't remember much about the phone call.
MR. GOELMAN: Okay. That's okay.
May I retrieve the document, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Thanks.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. In any case, Mr. O'Connell, after reviewing the sign-in
log, you do recall being at the DRMO on April 18, 1995?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that was a viewing day?
A. That is correct.
Robert O'Connell - Cross
Q. And you viewed items inside and outside on that day?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you have no recollection of seeing Terry Nichols at the
DRMO on that day?
A. No, sir. I don't remember seeing virtually anybody. I was
focused on what I was doing and really wasn't paying attention
to what was going on around me.
Q. After the bombing in Oklahoma City, did you see some
television coverage?
A. Yeah, I did.
Q. And in connection with that television coverage, did you
ever see a picture of Mr. Nichols on TV?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. No flash of recognition went off in your mind when you saw
that picture, did it, Mr. O'Connell?
A. No, sir.
Q. And over the past several days, you've been in contact --
not necessarily spoken contact, but you've seen other witnesses
subpoenaed by the defense; isn't that right?
A. Oh, yes, yes.
Q. And when you saw a couple of them, you did get the feeling
that you'd seen them before --
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Robert O'Connell - Cross
Q. Mr. O'Connell, you don't have any independent recollection,
aside from the log of April 18, 1995, do you, sir?
A. I have a difficult time with the date. The log is what
told me that I was into the inside. I have some very vivid
memories of the inside. I have some -- I'm going to say
"sketchy" memories of the outside, and I basically have had to
try and re-create the time frame, because there isn't a lot
else that stood out from that date for me.
Q. Okay. So there are portions of your visit that you
remember more clearly than others; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And is one of those portions that you remember -- or one of
the aspects of the visit that your wife was with you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you looked at dressers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you remember that pretty vividly?
A. Yeah.
Q. The dressers are located on the inside, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were examining them pretty closely; is that fair to
say?
A. That would be a fair assessment, yes.
Q. Wife was pointing out every nick and scratch on the
dressers?
Robert O'Connell - Cross
A. That's correct.
Q. And eventually you made a bid on at least one or more of
those dressers?
A. We bid on two of them; that's right.
Q. And you also looked at some electronic equipment inside; is
that right?
A. That's right.
Q. What kind of electronic equipment was that?
A. What -- my recollection, there was a number of pieces in a
box, and the box was large. It was about the size, maybe a
little bigger than this stand. And approximately this high.
And there was -- as I recall, an oscilloscope, a signal
generator, a power supply, and it seems like there was some
other items that I had to move to look through those. That's
pretty much -- my vivid memory, my most vivid memory of being
in there was of digging through this box, trying to see
specifically what was in there.
Q. How long would you estimate you spent digging through that
one box?
A. I would say 20, 25 minutes.
Q. And that box alone?
A. That's correct.
MR. GOELMAN: One moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: May I approach, your Honor?
Robert O'Connell - Cross
THE COURT: No. You've already done an approach here.
MR. GOELMAN: Okay.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. I'm displaying on the ELMO what's been already admitted as
the last page of Government 1956.
You see your name on there, Mr. O'Connell?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time does the sign-in indicate?
A. The sign-in -- I believe it's 1434.
Q. Okay.
A. That's not as close as his, but I think that's what it is.
Q. How long would you estimate you spent inside the DRMO on
April 18, 1995?
A. As best as I can remember -- and we basically had to
reconstruct a lot of this time -- I know that I spent 20 to 25
minutes in that one box. My wife and I looked at approximately
six or seven dressers. One of the dressers were -- I guess
kind of nicer. And we spent more time looking at them. But I
would estimate approximately 10 minutes per dresser. Maybe a
little longer on the two bedrooms.
Q. So what's the sum total of the amount of time you spent --
A. Well, if you use six dressers and 25 minutes, about an hour
and 25 minutes, hour and 30 minutes, sometime in that time
frame.
Q. And that entire time was after you signed in; is that
Robert O'Connell - Cross
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, before coming to court, you've had a chance to see
that log; isn't that right?
A. I'm sorry. The sign-in log?
Q. You've had a chance to see your name on the sign-in log?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told defense counsel the same thing that you've
told this jury: that you spent an hour and a half inside the
warehouse?
A. I believe I told them exactly the same thing.
Q. Did the defense counsel tell you that you were wrong about
that, sir?
A. No.
Q. Did they tell you that you couldn't have been there for an
hour and a half?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Before coming to Denver, sir, were you aware of what time
the DRMO closed on viewing days?
A. No, I really wasn't.
Q. And did you come to find out that fact in Denver?
A. I have heard a figure of 3:00. I am relatively sure that
figure's not accurate. I do not know. I honestly don't. I've
Robert O'Connell - Cross
heard that figure passed around. I do not know whether it's
accurate or not.
Q. And who did you hear that figure from?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. O'Connell, you've indicated that there's some portions
of your memory that are more vivid than other portions; is that
right?
A. That's right.
Q. And one of the things that you're more sure about is that
this is one of the only times you've ever signed in to the
DRMO; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you remember the layout of the sign-in table when you
walked in, sir?
A. Pretty much, yes.
Q. Could you describe that, please?
A. When you walk in the door, to the right, there was like
a -- they're not as big as these tables, but a table and then
some other tables that go diagonally. And I couldn't remember
whether there were two or three. But it kind of cordons off
that area, if you will.
Q. Okay. Hold on one moment.
I'm showing you what's already in evidence as
Robert O'Connell - Cross
Government Exhibit 1961.
A. That's a big picture here.
Q. Could you pick up -- can you pick up the light pen there on
your left -- or right in front of you and just go underneath
the window, touch it directly to the screen, and circle the
door where you signed in on April 18, 1995.
A. We -- you and I have discussed this. And this picture to
me is difficult to -- but I believe it is this one right here.
Gosh, I'm not very good with that light pen, am I?
Right there, that door.
Q. You believe it's that one?
A. That's correct.
Q. You're not sure, though?
A. I'm not absolutely sure. I am probably 85 percent sure. I
know that I walked from this gate past this ramp area, and then
we came to the door and went in.
Q. Have you -- are you a hundred percent sure that it was
either that door, or the door directly to the left of it?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you're equally certain that it wasn't the door all the
way down on the right; is that right?
A. Oh, God, no.
Q. Positive about that?
A. No, I don't believe we walked that far.
Q. And you're as sure about that as you are of anything else
Robert O'Connell - Cross
that you've testified here today?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. NEUREITER: No redirect, your Honor.
THE COURT: Witness excused?
MR. NEUREITER: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, you're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, we're going to take a
recess at this point, our usual afternoon rest stop. Please
continue to follow the cautions as given at all recesses of
avoiding discussions of any aspects of the case with anybody,
keeping open minds, and avoiding anything outside the evidence.
You're excused, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 3:17 p.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
MR. TIGAR: No, I was just standing, your Honor, to
ask your Honor if we could take the break.
THE COURT: Oh.
MR. TIGAR: And the Rocky Mountain News not to the
contrary, I was going to let your Honor decide that question.
THE COURT: I don't know your reference to the Rocky
Mountain News.
MR. TIGAR: There was a cartoon, your Honor, in the
Rocky Mountain News; and I deny all responsibility for it.
THE COURT: Court's in recess.
(Recess at 3:18 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Jury in at 3:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Walt Fuller.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Walter Fuller affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Walter P. Fuller, F-U-L-L-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fuller.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Mr. Fuller, where do you live?
A. I live in Salina, Kansas.
Q. And are you working there?
A. Yes, I am.
Walter Fuller - Direct
Q. What do you do for work?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. What do you do for work?
A. I am an aluminum wire welder employee for the Power Ed.
company.
Q. You're a welder?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have never met Terry Nichols before, have you?
A. No.
Q. I want to direct your attention to March, 1995. Where were
you working then?
A. In March of 1995?
Q. Yes.
A. I was working for the Power Ed. and doing a little
subcontracting.
Q. When you say "subcontracting," what are you referring to?
A. Oh, miscellaneous welding, repairing things.
Q. Was the fabricating or manufacturing of trailers part of
your business?
A. Repair and manufacturing, yes, of trailers for people who
may want one.
Q. What kind of trailers did you make in that time period?
A. Mainly a small, two-wheel trailer used in lawn care.
Q. Lawn care?
A. Lawn care.
Walter Fuller - Direct
Q. Any other purposes that you remember?
A. Not offhand.
Q. Okay. I want to show you what's been marked as Defendant's
Exhibit D603 and D603A, which I'm now going to show to
Government counsel.
Mr. Fuller, would you take a moment and page through
the -- I believe there are eight pages of D603 first. That's
the larger one.
Do you recognize that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is that your handwriting on it?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Did you notice your name on it?
A. Yes.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Okay. Your Honor, we would move the
admission of D603.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. It's received.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Now, Mr. Fuller, would you take a look at 603A. Tell me if
you recognize that.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. Is it fair to characterize that as an accurate,
reduced version of 603?
A. Yes, it is.
Walter Fuller - Direct
MR. THURSCHWELL: Your Honor, we would move the
admission of 603A for demonstrative purposes only for use on
the ELMO. It's inconvenient --
THE COURT: I see.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: You may use it for that purpose, yes.
MR. THURSCHWELL: If I may approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Before I show you this, Mr. Fuller, can you tell me what
prompted you to produce this document.
A. Well, on or about March -- the middle of March, between
March, say, 15 and 17 of 1995, I got a phone call; and the
person on the other end said he was Terry Nichols.
Q. All right. Go ahead. Go on.
A. Oh, anyway, he said he heard that I had built trailers; and
I asked him, you know, how he got my name; and he heard I had
trailers.
And so we began talking, and he was interested in a
two-wheel trailer to haul six canoes, approximately.
Q. Have you built canoe trailers before?
A. I have built one for an organization that took wayward boys
out to streams and taught them canoeing and camping out.
Q. So the design of a canoe trailer was something that you
were familiar with at the time?
Walter Fuller - Direct
A. Yes, I was, sir.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Okay. Now I'd like to publish 603A,
which is in two pages. And I want to show the first page
first.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Could you tell the jury, Mr. Fuller, what this is, what
they're looking at.
A. Well, you're looking at a canoe trailer that has a
canoe-trailer device at the top --
Q. Before that, just what is this document generally, not so
much what it depicts.
A. Oh, it's just a shop sketch that I made.
Q. Was this made in response to the phone call you just
mentioned?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, I want to zoom into -- on this page, and very briefly
could you just describe the function of the various parts that
the jurors are looking at now?
A. Well, the tower you see, the upright piece with the six
different bars at a slant, were the superstructure to hold the
canoes. Normally they were strapped on those bars, three on
each side, upside down, so they could be towed down the road.
You're also looking at a front view showing the little
2-inch-ball coupler and the jack and, of course, the two tires
that conform to the design.
Walter Fuller - Direct
Q. Okay. Zoom out again.
And the other sketches on this same page are other
views of the same trailer design?
A. Yes, it is. You have a side view, and then you have a rear
view showing the spare tire.
Q. Now, I want to show you the second page of 603A, which --
is this -- was the original version of this document -- was in
more than one page, Mr. Fuller, if you recall?
A. No. It was the page -- the page before and this page, just
two pages.
Q. Okay. So the first page was the left-hand side of the
original document, a copy of that, and this is the right-hand
side?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to zoom in on the upper left corner of this second
page of 603A, D603A. And could you tell the jury what 3-21-95
is there.
A. It was the date I did the drawing at home, March 21, 1995,
just a shop sketch for a canoe trailer.
Q. And below that to the right there is a name and address?
A. "Rough shop sketch for Terry Nichols, 109 South 2nd Street,
Herington, Kansas, ZIP Code 67449."
Q. And sliding it up a bit -- and are we now looking at your
name and address at the bottom of that page?
A. That's right.
Walter Fuller - Direct
Q. Now, Mr. Fuller, after you sketched these sketches,
designs, what did you do with this document?
A. Well, after I had sketched the -- I put it in my file
waiting possibly for a reply from the person that said he was
Terry Nichols.
Q. All right. Did you -- he had told you that he would get
back to you if he wanted the final design?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. Okay. Did you ever hear from him again?
A. Yes, I did. Seemed like it was at least a month or so that
I either felt -- it was a phone call or I think it was a letter
that he wrote me that he had not had an opportunity to get a
canoe dealership or franchise and that he would not be needing
a two-wheel canoe trailer, delivery trailer, but he appreciated
my efforts and my technical skills as to putting down ideas.
Q. Do you have a copy of that letter?
A. No, I do not. I had -- it wasn't necessary to keep it, I
felt, so I went ahead and pitched it.
Q. Okay. And have you had any contact in any form with
Mr. Nichols since that time?
A. No, I have not.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Thank you very much, sir. No
further questions.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Witness is excused.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Wendy Menke.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Wendy Menke affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Wendy Menke, M-E-N-K-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Menke. Will you tell the jury where
you live.
A. I live in Beatrice, Nebraska.
Q. And what is your occupation?
A. Right now, I'm a secretary for a CPA.
Q. And in April, '95, what was your occupation?
A. I worked in the front office of a daily newspaper in
Beatrice.
Q. And what was the name of the daily newspaper?
A. Beatrice Daily Sun.
Wendy Menke - Direct
Q. Was there a smaller newspaper that was associated with the
Daily Sun?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And what was the name of that?
A. The Plug Nickel.
Q. And would you give the jury an idea of what the Plug Nickel
was?
A. The Plug Nickel was a free shopper that came out weekly,
and it was distributed in the Kansas area, northeast Kansas
area.
Q. The office is in Nebraska?
A. The office is in Nebraska.
Q. And the distribution was solely in one portion of Kansas?
Is that correct?
A. It went down as far south as around Junction City, mainly
northeast Kansas, a portion of southeast Nebraska.
Q. Okay. And by a shopper's newspaper, what do you mean?
A. Shopper newspaper. It was a free shopper, which means that
the distribution or the circulation wasn't as high as like a
newspaper. And it was a free shopper, which means they just
put them out at distribution points and anybody could pick one
up.
Q. All right. What would be included in this newspaper? What
type of articles?
A. There would be classified advertising, with display
Wendy Menke - Direct
advertising.
Q. And how would a person put an advertisement in the
newspaper, in the Plug Nickel?
A. A person could call in to the Plug Nickel phone line and
place an ad. They could also send in the information and a
payment for their ad into that office.
Q. In the newspaper itself, is there a section that discloses
what the price is and how you mail in orders, mail in your
payment so that you can place an ad in the newspaper?
A. Yes. Every week they would have an ad that lists the name
of the Plug Nickel, along with advertising rates and different
distribution sites that you could pick up a Plug Nickel.
Q. And have you reviewed those records at our request
recently?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you -- there is an envelope in front of you; and if
you would open that up. And in order -- there should be an
exhibit in order on top which is your daily cash receipts. Is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, is that a business record that was compiled in
the course of business when you were there at the newspaper?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, did the Government come and ask for certain records
from the newspaper?
Wendy Menke - Direct
A. Yes, they did.
Q. After the bombing?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And was this one of the records that was provided to the
Government?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you recall approximately when that was after the
bombing?
A. Not exactly. I believe it was -- no, I don't. I don't
know exactly when it was.
Q. Do you recall the bombing being in April of '95?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. All right. And can you give any idea about when the
Government came and asked for your records?
A. I believe it was in the fall of that year, in October,
early November approximately.
Q. Were there some advertisements in the Plug Nickel that had
been placed by Terry Nichols, to your knowledge?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Now, did you ever meet Terry Nichols in person?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You mentioned to the jury that there are two ways of
placing the ad. Somebody could come in in person or could mail
in the payment and the draft of the ad; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Wendy Menke - Direct
Q. Now, in your daily cash receipts that's in front of you,
that's a record kept in the normal course of business; is that
correct?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, we would offer into evidence
1102, which is the -- I'm sorry. It's 1101, daily cash
receipts.
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, uh-huh.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. D1101 received.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. And is 1102 a receipt listing for the previous day of
April 17, '95?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. WOODS: We would offer 1102 also, your Honor.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: D1102 received.
MR. WOODS: To complete the record, we would offer
into evidence Defense Exhibit 1761.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Would you look at 1761, there, Ms. Menke.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. This is a record that you provided to the Government or
that your office provided to the Government?
A. Yes. We provided this to the Government.
Wendy Menke - Direct
Q. And were those the copies of payments that had been
received by the Plug Nickel for advertisements in April?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. WOODS: And we would offer that into evidence,
your Honor, 1761.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Received. D1761.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. And then the last two items, Ms. Menke: If you would look
at Exhibit 1098, which should be a Xerox copy of one of the
pages.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. That is a page out of the Plug Nickel that you recognize?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And then the last exhibit, which is 1760, which is a Xerox
copy of pretty much a whole magazine -- whole newspaper, a
weekly edition. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And do you recognize that as the Plug Nickel?
A. That's correct.
Q. And what date is that week printed for?
A. This is the copy of the front page of the week of April 26
through May 2, 1995.
Q. And the prior exhibit, 1098: What week was that for, if
you can tell by looking?
Wendy Menke - Direct
A. That was a page out of the issue of the week of April 19
through April 25, 1995.
MR. WOODS: We would offer into evidence, your Honor,
1098 and 1760.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No objection to 1098.
May I inquire if 1760 is just for the page of the ad,
or the entire --
MR. WOODS: The ads are on two separate pages.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: But the pertinent part of the paper.
MR. WOODS: Just the two pages, your Honor.
MR. ORENSTEIN: For those purposes, no objection, your
Honor.
THE COURT: D1098 and D1760 received.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Looking at 1101, Ms. Menke, do your records reflect a
payment from a Mr. Terry Nichols?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And how much was the payment for?
A. The payment was for $27.20.
Q. Now, did you -- can you tell from that amount of payment
how many ads were purchased and for what period of time?
A. Actually, from that amount, I cannot tell exactly because a
Plug Nickel advertisement is very low in price, so --
Q. What is the price for, say, a 1-inch ad to run a week?
Wendy Menke - Direct
A. A 1-inch-display classified ad would be approximately $4 to
$4.50 for one week.
Q. Okay. And on 1102, does that also reflect your cash
receipts showing that payment?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And then 1761 is a copy of the actual money order?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And who is the money order made payable to?
A. The Plug Nickel.
Q. And who was the payer?
A. The payer was Terry Nichols.
Q. And is an address listed?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And what address is listed?
A. It is 109 South 2nd, Herington, Kansas.
Q. Okay. And the amount of the money order?
A. Is $27.20.
Q. Now, on 1098, the copy of the one page, you see an ad there
for a fuel meter?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And how does that ad read?
A. It reads, "Fuel meter, LC meter with register 2-inch
capacity, 10-100 GPM flow rate, can meter any type of fuel.
New, $1,800. Will sell for $900 OBO, (913) 258-3400."
Q. Okay. What does "OBO" mean?
Wendy Menke - Direct
A. "Or best offer."
Q. And the phone number is (913) 258-3400?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, do you see an ad below that a couple of ads down with
the same phone number advertising nails?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And would you read that for the jury, please.
A. "Nails, 5-inch, common 40 D-size nails in 50-pound boxes,
retail $1 per pound, will sell 60 cents per pound. Have over
2,000 pounds. Can deliver large quantities. (913) 258-3400."
Q. That's the same phone number that's listed above?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And then if you would go to the next exhibit, 1760. And is
that the Plug Nickel for the subsequent week of April 26
through May 2, '95?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And would you go to page 6. Do you see an ad on that page
for the fuel meter again?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is it the same wording that you had in the previous
week?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you also see an ad there for nails?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is it the same phone number for both of those as the
Wendy Menke - Direct
previous week?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Would you go to page 8. Do you see an ad there on the
right column for hand tools?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is there a phone number at the bottom of that ad?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. What's the phone number?
A. (913) 258-3400.
Q. And would you read that ad for hand tools?
A. "Hand tools for sale. Many new to used. D-handle spade/
shovels, 36-inch and 18-inch crosscut handsaws, single-blade
axes, mattocks, and C crow bars, D-handle shovel handles, 40D
5-inch common nails in 50-pound boxes, and sandbags. (913)
258-3400."
Q. And further down on that column, do you see a -- another ad
for sandbags?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is there the same phone number listed there?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Would you read the sandbags ad.
A. "Sandbags, new and used, poly OD green and brown burlap,
great for berming, driveways, temperature walls, stopping soil
erosion, etc. (913) 258-3400."
Q. Okay. And again, what week was those three adds running?
Wendy Menke - Direct
A. They were --
Q. Should be on the front there.
A. April 26 through May 2, 1995.
Q. Now, would a payment of 27.20 cover those ads for the
two-week period there that we have found in the newspaper?
A. Yes, it probably could.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Menke. I appreciate
it.
Pass the witness, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Menke.
A. Hi.
Q. My name is Jamie Orenstein.
Ma'am, the ads that you've just been reading to the
jury that Mr. Nichols sent in payment for: The earliest of
those ads was to run April 19 and the following weeks; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it was paid for with a money order, and that's Defense
Exhibit D1761. Correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Let me just put it up on the display here, the ELMO.
That's the -- a copy obviously -- color has been
reversed, but it's a copy of the payment that you received?
Wendy Menke - Cross
A. That's correct.
Q. Now --
MR. ORENSTEIN: I'm sorry. Could we have it up on
the --
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: What is the exhibit number?
MR. ORENSTEIN: I'm sorry. 1761. Defense Exhibit
1761.
I apologize, your Honor.
Thank you.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now that we can all see it, that's a copy of the payment
that Mr. Nichols sent to your company for the ads. Correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, your records show that it was received on the 17th of
April?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you see on the display here the date of this money
order? And perhaps I can zoom in to where it says year, month,
day. Do you see that, where I'm pointing right now?
A. Yes, uh-huh.
Q. And that says '95 is the year, 04 the month, and 14 the
day.
A. Correct.
Q. April 14, 1995?
A. Right.
Wendy Menke - Cross
Q. But now this transaction was done entirely by mail;
correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. You don't have any personal knowledge?
A. I don't have any personal knowledge of that. I assume it
was by mail.
Q. So you have no way of knowing what time of day this money
order was purchased?
A. No.
Q. Or where or who Mr. Nichols was with, if anybody, at the
time of his purchase?
A. No.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, ma'am. Nothing further.
MR. WOODS: Thank you. She may be excused.
Thanks for coming.
THE COURT: I take it that's agreed?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. WOODS: Dennis Crawford, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(Dennis Crawford affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Dennis Crawford, C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Mr. Crawford, how are you doing?
A. I'm fine.
Q. Where are you from, Mr. Crawford?
A. Orlando, Florida.
Q. And what do you do for work?
A. I work for a satellite communications company.
Q. Are you presently out of work?
A. Workmen's comp.
Q. Is that because of your injury?
A. Yes.
Q. What other things have you done in the past besides working
for a satellite communications company?
A. I presently hold an FFL.
Q. What is an FFL?
A. Federal Firearms License.
Q. And do you go to gun shows?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What do you do at gun shows?
A. I display my goods, take orders, sell items, sell reloading
supplies.
Dennis Crawford - Direct
Q. How many gun shows would you say you've been to in the last
five years?
A. 100, 150.
Q. Do you regularly go to gun shows now?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How often do you go to gun shows?
A. I attend them whenever there are a local show for me to go
to, which would be about once a month.
Q. Is that the nature of the gun-show business that you would
attend them, drive around and attend them on a regular basis?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's go back to the 1995 time period. Where were you
living at that time?
A. I was living in Cincinnati, Ohio. Take it back.
Mansfield, Ohio.
Q. Okay. And to take you back to the February, 1995 time
period, did you attend a gun show in Des Moines, Iowa?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you remember the date of that gun show?
A. February 17, 18, and 19.
Q. How can you remember the date of that particular gun show?
A. I keep calendars of all the shows I go to for tax purposes.
Q. Are gun shows scheduled on regular weekends over the course
of the year, particular gun shows in particular locations?
A. Yes, they are.
Dennis Crawford - Direct
Q. What kinds of materials did you have for sale at that
particular gun show?
A. I had reloading equipment, brass bullets, primers, powder,
walnut media.
Q. Are those the typical things that you sell at gun shows?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see Terry Nichols here?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Have you seen Terry Nichols before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. When did you see Terry Nichols before?
A. I've seen -- in February at the Iowa gun show.
Q. Describe that for us, please, how you met Mr. Nichols at
that gun show.
A. Okay. On the date that we were setting up, which was the
17th, a Friday, we were -- the people that was in the one
corridor at the gun show there -- we were setting up, and we
were disappointed with our location.
Q. Why was the location disappointing to you?
A. It was in a bad location for traffic, which at a gun show
you rely on traffic to go past your tables to see your goods.
Q. And was your -- how was your location disappointing?
A. It was in a side corridor which the main flow of traffic
would walk past unless they happened to turn their head and see
that there was tables in that corridor.
Dennis Crawford - Direct
Q. Did you discuss that with Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Describe what Mr. Nichols was setting up that day.
A. On the day that he arrived and was setting up his table, he
had odds-and-end bivouac equipment which is military surplus
camping gear. He had a few miscellaneous ammo rounds for sale.
I believe he had a couple coins for sale. .30 caliber carbine
rifle for sale. Typical nonchalant (sic) equipment that one
would see at a gun show.
Q. Did he have sleeping bags?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he have foam pads?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he have canteens?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was this all typical military surplus material?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And did you have conversations with Mr. Nichols over the
course of that weekend?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Was there anything unusual about those conversations that
you had with Mr. Nichols over the course of the weekend?
A. None whatsoever.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. None whatsoever.
Dennis Crawford - Direct
Q. Would he watch your table?
A. Yes, he would.
Q. And would you watch his?
A. Yes, I would.
Q. Explain why that happens at gun shows.
A. Well, at certain times, since you're there at the table by
yourself, unless you have a helper with you, there is times
that nature calls or you get hungry. Therefore, one would take
a break if it wasn't crowded, the tables weren't busy. It's
customary for the person next to you to watch your table while
you take and go to the rest room or go to the cafeteria,
depending on whether or not they were serving food, and then
vice versa, they'd come back, you would go. So it's very
customary for the person next to you to watch your table.
Q. And Mr. Nichols did that weekend?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was there a -- this was a bad location for you; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a bad -- was there an empty table along that
corridor?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Could you describe that issue and how it was resolved?
A. Yes, I can. Anytime at a gun show -- the person with
experience in a gun show, if you have an empty table, what you
want to do is when the doors open is quickly fill that table.
Dennis Crawford - Direct
The belief is that empty table will discourage customers from
coming down that row, especially if they see too many. So when
the door is opened on that day, we had one empty table. I
asked Mr. Nichols if he needed it; and at that time he stated
he didn't really have enough stuff to fill that table, so I
spread my equipment on out to fill that table.
Q. Do they sell literature at gun shows?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. What kinds of literature do they sell at gun shows?
A. They sell manuals on reloading. They sell army surplus
manuals. They sell manuals on survival. They sell manuals
on -- from the manufacturers of firearms.
Q. Do they sell manuals on explosives?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Do they sell manuals on improvised explosive devices?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Do they sell manuals on military explosive techniques?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Did you sell that kind of literature?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Why did you sell that kind of literature?
A. Profit margin.
Q. Explain that to the jury, please.
A. You can take and get a discount when you buy your books.
You buy 12 books or more, it may only cost you $2 to $2.50 a
Dennis Crawford - Direct
book. They sell between 5 and $6 apiece on the table. It's a
high-profit, fast-moving item.
Q. When you say high-moving (sic), fast-moving item, what do
you mean by that?
A. People come in, they buy them for gags, for gifts. They
buy them for all various reasons. They move quickly, and
they're a sought-after book mainly because they're an actual
military-issue book that's been civilianized.
Q. Have you ever built an improvised explosive device using
the manuals that you sold?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. And -- but you maintained and sold those because they
were -- there was a market for those at gun shows?
A. Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: One moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Orenstein.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Jamie Orenstein.
We've never met before; is that correct?
A. Not to my recollection.
Q. Now, sir, you've been telling us about meeting Mr. Nichols
at the gun show in Des Moines. That was the Adventure Land
Dennis Crawford - Cross
show; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was in February of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. February 17 to 19?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you find out that the man's name was Mr. Nichols?
A. I found out after the promoter called me and asked me if I
remembered the table next to me and what the name was of that
person, and then he started asking me by a questionnaire of
what names rang a bell.
And then when the federal agents came to my house and
started asking me the same type questions.
Q. Okay. At the show, he didn't tell you his name, did he?
A. No, he didn't. We just introduced each other real quickly.
It's -- walk in, hi, how are you doing, I'm so-and-so. If he
did introduce himself to me -- I'm lousy at catching names at
the first time. I usually have to ask two or three times, but
the opportunity didn't come up to say, hey, what did you say
your name was.
Q. Well, it's true, isn't it, that Mr. Nichols was at that
show registered under the name of Joe Rivers?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE COURT: You'll have to see if he knows.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Dennis Crawford - Cross
Q. Do you know, sir?
A. At this time, I do.
Q. Okay. And was he registered as Joe Rivers?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor. Source of his
knowledge.
THE COURT: We need the source of it.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. What is the source of your knowledge?
A. The source of my knowledge is the seating arrangement or
the table arrangement at that show.
Q. And you've seen a business record from that show of the
seating plan; correct?
MR. NEUREITER: Objection, your Honor, if he's talking
about a document that is not in evidence.
THE COURT: Yes. He's relying on a seating chart
that's hearsay.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Very well.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, you told us that you and Mr. Nichols were in a bad
location at the show; is that correct?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And you discussed that with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the reason that Mr. Nichols had a bad location that he
was a walk-in, he hadn't registered in advance?
Dennis Crawford - Cross
A. I couldn't answer that. I don't know how his registration
went.
Q. But you do know that when there was a second table
available, he didn't have enough items to expand to that second
table?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, while you were there at the show with Mr. Nichols, did
he have -- he had a normal amount of customers; is that
correct?
A. Same traffic flow that went by his table went by my table.
Q. Did he have any visitors who stayed with him for an
extended period?
A. He had one person that showed up that greeted him, that
shook hands, sat down, and read a catalogue.
Q. Do you know who that was?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Was this a customer, or someone he appeared to know?
A. Yes.
Q. Which one? Somebody he appeared to know, or a customer?
A. Oh, the person who walked up that greeted him when they
shook hands -- the conversation appeared that they knew each
other and sat down and read a catalogue together.
Q. About how long were they together?
A. Maybe a half hour.
Q. Now, the last time you saw Mr. Nichols was February 19,
Dennis Crawford - Cross
1995; correct?
A. In person, yes.
Q. And you've never seen him in person -- you've never been
with him from that day until today; correct?
A. Correct.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Oh, there was one other thing: Was Mr. Nichols selling
ammonium nitrate?
A. No.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. NEUREITER: No, your Honor. The witness is
excused.
We thank you, sir.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You are
excused.
Be careful.
All right. Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. James Shirley.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(James Shirley affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: James Orville Shirley, S-H-I-R-L-E-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Hello, Mr. Shirley.
Where do you live currently?
A. Salina, Kansas.
Q. And what do you do there for work?
A. I'm a medical stenographer.
Q. What is a medical stenographer?
A. Performing diagnostic medical ultrasound.
Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to March of 1995. Do
you recall attending a gun show in Manhattan, Kansas, around
that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a particular reason that brought you to that
particular gun show?
A. Normally go to them to either buy or sell or trade like a
rifle or a pistol or something.
Q. And do you recall if you had that kind of intention when
you went to the Manhattan, Kansas, gun show?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your intention?
James Shirley - Direct
A. I think I had one or two pistols with me that day that I
wanted to sell.
Q. Okay. How did you go about trying to sell your gun?
A. You go inside the gun show and walk around to the various
vendors inside and see if they'd be interested in buying.
Q. Okay. And did you find one who was interested?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you sell your gun?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know who you sold your gun to?
A. Terry Nichols.
Q. Was he a vendor at that gun show?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he have a table?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Do you recall what he was selling?
A. He had various, if I recall right, rifles and shotguns and
maybe some pistols on his table and, I think, probably some
ammunition.
Q. Do you recall any army surplus?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Nichols?
A. Just usual small talk.
Q. All right. Do you recall any of the substance of that
conversation?
James Shirley - Direct
A. Such as? I don't --
Q. Well, if I were to refresh your memory by asking if you
recall discussing MREs with him, would that --
A. Oh, okay.
Q. Does that refresh your memory?
A. Yeah. He bought one of my pistols, and I think he was
interested in the other one; and I think I remember him saying
that he needed to save some money back to buy some MREs.
Q. Now, what are MREs?
A. That stands for "meals ready to eat." It's military food
that they eat out in the field, I think.
Q. Did you dicker over the price of your gun?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Anything unusual about that?
A. No.
Q. What was the final price, if you recall?
A. I believe I sold him the pistol for between 6- and $700.
Q. Anything else involved in the exchange?
A. I sold some clips along with it and a pistol case to put it
in.
Q. Did you and he exchange any receipts?
A. No.
Q. Did you fill out any forms?
A. No.
Q. Anything out of the ordinary about that?
James Shirley - Direct
A. No.
Q. Sir, are you a gun collector?
A. Small-time.
Q. Small-time. Do you attend gun shows regularly?
A. Yeah, pretty much.
Q. Is that the -- in the general area around Salina?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you formerly live in Texas?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you attend gun shows there?
A. Yes.
Q. Is literature commonly available at gun shows, to your
knowledge?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. What kinds of literature?
A. Oh, you can see literature about various things.
Q. Well, let me ask more specifically: Have you ever seen The
Turner Diaries for sale?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a rare phenomenon?
A. Not really.
Q. Okay.
A. I've seen it, you know, for sale at several gun shows.
Q. Have you ever seen items related to the Waco incident for
sale at gun shows?
James Shirley - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Is that uncommon?
A. No.
Q. What kinds of items have you seen for sale?
A. Oh, there has been slogans, you know, put on like hats and
T-shirts and bumper stickers and pins.
MR. THURSCHWELL: One moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. THURSCHWELL: I think that's all. Thank you, sir.
THE WITNESS: That's it?
MR. THURSCHWELL: There may be -- others may have
questions.
THE COURT: Other counsel have a chance to ask you
some questions.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: That's the procedure.
Nobody is laughing at you.
THE WITNESS: That's all right.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Soon, sir, but not quite yet.
A. You've got to give me credit for trying.
Q. I do just have a few questions. Sir, my name is Jamie
Orenstein. We haven't met before; is that correct?
James Shirley - Cross
A. I think I talked to you on the phone one time.
Q. Right. And we spoke briefly, and you told us you were
coming up here?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, you told us that you sold a gun to Mr. Nichols.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time, did you know what his name was?
A. No.
Q. He didn't tell you?
A. I don't think so.
Q. And someone later told you what his name was?
A. No.
Q. How did you learn his name?
A. I think probably from the television, after he was picked
up in Herington.
Q. All right. So you recognized the photograph?
A. Yes. And I kind of put -- put it together like -- I
believe that's the guy that I sold the gun to, you know, at a
gun show.
Q. When you saw him at the gun show -- now, this was in
Manhattan, Kansas; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's at the old armory there?
James Shirley - Cross
A. I believe that's where it was taking place, at the armory.
Q. And it was in sort of two rooms, and there is one off to
the side a little bit? Do you recall that?
A. I hadn't really thought about it, but I believe you're
right. I believe it was kind of like in -- kind of two
different rooms.
Q. Have you been shown, in preparation for coming here today,
a floor plan of that show?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And you don't know what name Mr. Nichols used when
he registered for that show, do you?
A. No. Absolutely not.
Q. All right. Now, you told us that you noticed that
Mr. Nichols had a number of guns at the table; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. A number of long guns?
A. I believe there were long guns there.
Q. And also pistols; correct?
A. I remember the long guns for sure, but there may or may not
have been pistols there.
Q. Now, you've been to a number of gun shows from time to
time; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Often you've seen, I'm sure, that dealers have business
cards or names of their business or something about their
James Shirley - Cross
product, you know, advertising there on the table. Is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols have any kind of sign, any indication that
you saw?
A. I'm not sure. I don't really recall any.
Q. Was there any sign that you saw about what he was selling
and what kind of paperwork would be involved?
A. No.
Q. Now, this was in March of 1995; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And it ended -- what was it? March 18 was the last day of
the show?
A. May -- I guess.
Q. You don't recall the specific date?
A. No, I don't recall the specific day, no.
Q. But you know it was March of 1995.
A. Yeah.
Q. And that was the one and only time you've ever seen
Mr. Nichols?
A. That, yes.
Q. And from that day to this, you have no idea where he was or
what he was doing.
A. No.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you. Nothing further.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Nothing further, your Honor. The
witness is excused.
THE COURT: All right. Now you're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. James Sargent.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, may we approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
You can stand and stretch, if you want.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 104B2 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
THE COURT: We're changing on the order of witnesses.
That's what the discussion was about.
What it means is we're running ahead of schedule.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Martin Powell affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Martin Walton Powell, P-O-W-E-L-L.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Powell.
A. How do you do, sir.
Q. Do you go by "Walt" Powell?
A. Walt, yes, sir.
Q. Would you tell the jury, please, where you live.
A. I live at 6447 Albert Pike Road, Royal, Arkansas.
Q. And do you have a neighbor named Roger Moore?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How long have you known Roger Moore?
A. Approximately five years.
Q. Now, sir, would you tell the jury, please, what do you do
Martin Powell - Direct
for a living?
A. I'm a retired firefighter from Hot Springs Fire Department,
and currently I supervise the carpentry shop at the Hot Springs
Rehabilitation Center.
Q. Do you also do volunteer work at your church?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of volunteer work do you do?
A. Carpentry work.
Q. Now, do you -- can you remember -- when is the first time
you can remember meeting Mr. Moore?
A. I don't recall the exact date. He wanted to buy our place,
and he asked us if we were interested in selling it. And I --
I don't recall.
Q. Was anybody with him when you met him?
A. Karen Anderson.
Q. And how did he introduce Ms. Anderson?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor. I believe this
is supposed to go to the testimony of Mr. Moore.
THE COURT: What?
MS. WILKINSON: Go to the impeachment of the testimony
of Mr. Moore, not to all the facts about Mr. Moore.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. How did he introduce Ms. Anderson?
A. Karen.
Martin Powell - Direct
Q. Did he say -- did he indicate that they had any particular
relationship?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Did you ever meet someone identified as Carol Moore?
A. At sometime later, I did.
Q. Do you remember how you were introduced to Carol Moore?
A. As Roger's sister.
Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to the 5th of November
of 1994, a Saturday. Do you remember that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, I want to introduce a couple of -- ask you
about a couple of other people. What is your wife's name, sir?
A. Verta.
Q. And does she have a nickname?
A. Pudge.
Q. Can I call her that to her face?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And do you have a son?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what -- do you have more than one son?
A. I have two sons.
Q. And what are their names, sir?
A. Lance and Kirk.
Q. Now, on the 5th of November, 1994, what were you doing that
day?
Martin Powell - Direct
A. I was working on a new sanctuary at the Royal Baptist
Church.
Q. Did there come a time when Ms. Moore came over and got you?
A. Not Mrs. Moore.
Q. Thank you, sir. Did there come a time --
A. My wife.
Q. -- when Ms. Powell came over and got you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what time was that, sir?
A. I don't recall. It's some -- sometime around midmorning.
Q. Now -- and as a result of that conversation, did you go
back to your house?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Who was at your house when you got there?
A. My oldest son, Lance, and Roger Moore.
Q. And what was Mr. Moore doing when you first saw him back at
the house?
A. I wa