The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Friday, December 5, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 110)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 11:06 a.m., on the 5th day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, SEAN CONNELLY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY
MEARNS, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
REID NEUREITER, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite
1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 11:06 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 11:07 a.m.)
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Germaine Johnston.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Germaine Johnston affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Germaine Ann Johnston, J-O-H-N-S-T-O-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. Johnston.
A. Good morning.
Q. Mrs. Johnston, are you employed by the federal government?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Could you tell the jury what your position is.
A. I'm the chief of multi-family asset management for the U.S.
Department of Housing and Urban Development in Oklahoma.
Q. Briefly tell them what your responsibilities are in
connection with that position.
A. I am the branch chief, and what we do is oversee FHA loans
and subsidized property, all the multi-family housing in
Oklahoma. We have over 300 properties, and we just oversee all
aspects of their management.
Q. And that's for the entire state of Oklahoma?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you lean in a little bit. It's a little bit hard to
hear you. Thank you, ma'am.
A. Oh, okay.
Q. Now, did you have that same position in April of 1995?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were you in the Murrah Building at 9:02 a.m. in the morning
Germaine Johnston - Direct
on that day?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were you injured in the blast?
A. I was -- I had some glass embedded in my scalp, and I had
some cuts, and I had some ear and lung problems right
afterwards; but my injuries were very minor, relatively.
Q. What -- the ear and lung problems, do you know what that
was caused by?
A. I think it was caused by the pressure of the bomb forcing
things into my ear and then -- the lung problem, I had pleurisy
several times, was caused by the walking down the stairway and
inhaling all of the glasses and pulverized concrete and all of
those things that were in the stairwell.
Q. Were you treated that day for your injuries?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you released that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Ma'am, I'm going to show you what's been previously
admitted as Government Exhibit G940. Now, were you able to get
out of the Murrah Building that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you show the jury on the map, using the pen that's
connected to a wire on your desk -- there should be one --
that's the one. And then if you reach under -- You have to
reach under and actually touch the screen.
Germaine Johnston - Direct
A. Oh, okay.
Q. Can you show them where you emerged from the Murrah
Building?
A. Right here on the south side out of the east stairwell.
Q. Okay. And onto the plaza area there?
A. Yes. Out onto the plaza area.
Q. Do you know what time you got -- managed to get out of the
building?
A. I'm not sure. I think it was 5 or 10 minutes after the
blast.
Q. Okay. Now, did you have a particular concern when you
emerged apart from your own injuries and --
A. Well, first, our first thought was that we were supposed to
go over to where our group would meet. We had evacuation
drills for emergencies; and when we would leave the building,
we were supposed to go across on Robinson -- this is going up a
little bit here -- we were to go across on Robinson and meet in
a certain spot. So Bob Smart and I walked over there to meet
people, and there was nobody else there from our agency.
Q. When you got there, did you eventually decide to try to
find your husband?
A. Yes. Well, not from there. From there we walked up to 5th
Street and over in front of the Y. We thought maybe some of
our people might be over here. And we walked over there, and
there were medical people set up and things like that.
Germaine Johnston - Direct
But Bob's wife, Terry Rees, had worked in this part of
the building, and he was concerned about her; and she was
killed. But he decided he was going to go back over in front
of the building and see if there was word about her. And I
decided that I needed to go down to the Kerr-McGee building
where my husband works and find him.
Q. Okay. Now, then can you pause. Can you see -- is the
Kerr-McGee building marked in any way on this -- I'm sorry.
A. No, it's down here. It's down here on the McGee Avenue.
Q. And is it actually on that block?
A. Oh, is it on -- it's right here.
Q. It is. Okay.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Tell the jury how you proceeded to go to that building.
A. Okay. There's an alley -- there's an alley that doesn't
show on this map. You can see it up here between 5th and 6th
Street, but -- right here.
Q. Can you show --
A. You can see it right here. But it actually goes all the
way through here.
Q. How far --
A. Between the two Southwestern Bell buildings and to the
Kerr-McGee plaza; and from where I was, that would be the
shortest way to get to McGee Tower.
Q. Did you take that route down the alley?
Germaine Johnston - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you have an encounter with someone that stood out in
your mind?
A. Yes, I did. When I got down here, to the Southwestern Bell
property, there was a car sitting facing north, and there were
two young men standing by it. And as -- approached them.
Q. Let me just stop you there and try to get a time.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you know about how long after the bombing that would
have been?
A. My estimate would be that it was 20 or 25 minutes
afterwards. I think between 9:25 and 9:35 or something like
that.
Q. Okay. Now, you said that there were two young men that you
saw?
A. Uh-huh, there were two men standing by the passenger side
of this car. It was yellow car. It was parked in the alley,
close to this building right here, facing north; and they were
standing by the driver's door.
Q. It was -- could you show -- point in the direction? Which
direction is north on this map?
A. I can't figure out how this thing works here.
That's north.
Q. Okay. The direction of the arrow?
A. Uh-huh.
Germaine Johnston - Direct
Q. Now, did you recognize the type of car?
A. It was a Mercury.
Q. How do you know that?
A. My husband and I used to drive a Mercury, about that same
age and about that same color.
Q. What model, year model was your Mercury?
A. '77.
Q. What color was this Mercury?
A. It was faded yellow.
Q. Okay. Was it a four-door?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the two young men that you mentioned: Did you get a
look at either or both of them?
A. I'm not -- not that I could describe them in detail; but
one -- one was tall and one was shorter.
Q. Did you have any conversation with either of them?
A. Yes. As I -- as I walked -- as I approached them, it was
obvious that I had come out of the building because I was
covered with pulverized concrete, I think, and I was wet
because the pipes had broken. My hair was wet and everything.
It was obvious I had come out of there. And as I got close to
them, the tallest one said, "What happened?"
And I said, "There was an explosion in the federal
building."
Q. And what did he say?
Germaine Johnston - Direct
A. And he said, "A lot of people killed?"
Q. And how did you respond?
A. I just -- I said I didn't know. I said, "I don't know."
And just walked on.
Q. Did anything strike you as unusual about that exchange at
that time?
A. Yes. Because I thought he was going to ask me if he could
help me or if I was okay or something, which several people had
already done that. And it really surprised me that he just
wanted to know how many people were killed.
Q. From what you could tell, did he appear to be concerned
about the number of people killed?
A. No. No. He just wanted to know.
Q. Okay. From that position that you marked on the map, can
you see the Murrah Building?
A. Yes. There is a clear view from right here. There is a
clear view over to the Murrah Building.
Q. Is that true from the entire length of that alley?
A. No. You'd have to be just about in that spot to be able to
see the Murrah Building. If you get further back, it's blocked
by buildings.
Q. Mrs. Johnston, did there come a time when you realized that
you could identify the individual who you had some conversation
with?
A. Yes. When I saw Timothy McVeigh on television, it just
Germaine Johnston - Direct
instantly -- I realized that he was the person I had talked to
in the alley.
Q. You were immediately struck with that thought?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, could you describe the other individual that you saw
that day?
A. Not in -- not in any detail. Just that he was shorter and
darker.
Q. Shorter and darker than Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you remember anything about his build?
A. Not really.
Q. Do you recall speaking to the FBI about this interview --
about this encounter in August of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. If I showed you a report of your interview, might that
refresh your recollection as to your picture of the individual?
A. It might.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Your Honor, I'm showing the witness
302 9458.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. THURSCHWELL: And I'm indicating the fourth and
final paragraph on the first page.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Germaine Johnston - Direct
Q. Does that refresh your recollection as you sit here today
about the appearance of the individual?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. But that was two years ago. So that must be what I
remembered then.
Q. Okay. If it doesn't refresh your recollection today, we
won't ask you about it.
MR. THURSCHWELL: A moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Mrs. Johnston, did you eventually see on television
sketches of other -- of another individual or individuals that
were commonly referred to as John Doe No. 2?
A. Yes, yes, I did.
Q. Did -- to the best of your recollection, did you have the
same shock of recognition about the other individual when you
saw those?
A. No.
Q. But you did when you saw the photographic image of Timothy
McVeigh?
A. Yes.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
Germaine Johnston - Cross
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. Johnston.
A. Good morning.
Q. How are you?
A. I'm fine.
Q. We met for the first time a few minutes ago before court
started?
A. Yes.
Q. If you would, I want to take you back to the morning of
April 19. Tell us what time that you arrived at work that day.
A. 8:00.
Q. And tell us about your morning, leading up to the
explosion, if you would.
A. Well, I got to the office at 8:00; and I had several
meetings lined up for that morning, and so I went over and
talked to my boss to remind him that we had a meeting at 10.
And then I went over to another department and asked Don Buelly
to come over and talk to me about some reports I needed. And
at 9:00, Don and I were sitting at my desk talking about those
reports; and then in just a few minutes, the building started
to vibrate and the ceiling fell on us and the pipes broke. And
we just -- we were just really disoriented, confused, and we
started saying, "What's happening," you know, "What's -- God,
what's happening to us here?"
Germaine Johnston - Cross
And then finally in a few minutes, it stopped. And I
think at that point was when I just went into shock, but I
looked up and I could see the sky where there had been two
floors above me before that; and then just over -- over to my
left -- the floor broke off 2 feet, approximately, to my left,
and about 2 feet behind me. I was by one of those big columns.
That's what was holding up that piece of floor that we were
sitting on. And I could see all the way down to the ground.
Q. I'm confused here. You say you're 2 feet from what?
A. From where the floor broke off. There was no floor 2 feet,
just over to my left.
Q. All right. Where are you right now? Are you laying down,
or standing up?
A. No, I was still sitting at my desk.
Q. Okay.
A. I was just sitting at my desk. And I honestly think that
if I had stood up or moved at all, that I would have been
killed. It was just -- it was fortunate that I was just
paralyzed and just sat there.
Q. And then what happened?
A. And then it stopped; and in a few minutes, the people that
were around me started, you know, digging out of the debris,
and we started throwing all these tiles -- the ceiling tiles
off of us and just trying to figure out what had happened. And
we decided that -- several of the people around us decided that
Germaine Johnston - Cross
we just needed to get out of the building.
Q. Very disorienting?
A. Yes it was. Yes, very confusing.
Q. And did you have help getting out of the building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who helped you?
A. Bob Smart and Larry Harris came down. Bob Smart came down
looking for his wife because his wife had been about 10 feet
back over behind me. And he came down looking for her. And
when he got to me, he could see that the floor was gone there
and -- you know, he couldn't get any further. And then Larry
Harris was just, you know, helping people get started towards
the stairwell. And they said, "We're leaving, and you're going
to go with us." And I didn't want to go. I just wanted -- I
don't know what I was going to do. I guess I was just going to
sit there.
But anyway, Larry came and just got up on my desk and
said, "We're leaving, and you're going with us"; and he just
pulled me up out of the chair and we left.
Q. So eventually they got you up and going and helped you down
the stairway?
A. Yes.
Q. And you came out of the -- what side of the building did
you come out of?
A. On the south side.
Germaine Johnston - Cross
Q. And I think you told us you were covered in ceiling-tile
debris and dust --
A. Pulverized whatever it was --
Q. Glass --
A. Yes.
Q. -- in your hair?
A. In my scalp.
Q. In your scalp and various places. Now, by the time you got
out of the building, the police had already had time to put the
yellow evidence tape, if you will --
A. Yes.
Q. -- around the scene; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So it was sometime before you got out of the building?
A. I don't know exactly how long it was, but the yellow tape
was up when we got down to the plaza area.
Q. Okay. And when you got out of the building and you -- I
guess you went under the yellow tape; is that right?
A. Well, around it.
Q. Okay. Then where did you go?
A. We went across the street to the meeting place on Robinson
by the church. And as I said, no one was there, really, and so
we went on up in front of the Y to see if there was anybody up
there. And there were a few people around up there, but, you
know, really not everybody like it was supposed to be.
Germaine Johnston - Cross
Q. Okay. And then where did you go after that?
A. Then I walked over -- I started to go to the McGee Tower to
look for my husband. And I walked over to the alley and down
the alley to the McGee Tower.
Q. Now, this alley that you're speaking of --
MR. RYAN: Let's put our ELMO on again, if you would,
please.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. This alley -- would you draw the alley for us one more
time?
A. It shows on this block. And then it actually goes all the
way through this block and through this block and between two
buildings down here.
Q. Okay.
A. It's the shortest distance from where I was to the tower.
Q. All right. And would you put an X where you stopped and
had this conversation with the two men.
Thank you. And then would you draw the line you drew
a moment ago from where you were talking to these men to the
Murrah Building?
No, don't erase anything, keep the --
A. I didn't mean to erase it. I didn't realize it was going
to do that.
Q. It's a little tricky.
Germaine Johnston - Cross
A minute ago you drew it through the church. Do you
remember that?
A. Well, this is just kind of hard to direct.
Q. All right.
A. Because it's drawing about a quarter of an inch higher than
I intend for it to.
Q. The line of vision really goes through that church?
A. Well, you can actually see the building from that stop.
Q. The very top parts, you mean?
A. Well, no. You can see quite a bit of the south side of the
building.
Q. Isn't there a fairly sloping hill down on 5th Street that
goes -- slopes downward as you go further east between Robinson
and Broadway? Are you with me?
A. You mean --
Q. This street right here that I'm pointing to, doesn't that
go downhill as you get to Broadway?
A. Uh-huh, I think it does.
Q. So where you are is much lower spot than where the Murrah
Building is sitting; would you agree?
A. I don't know.
Q. Now, you say when you had this conversation, you were in
shock?
A. Yes, I was in shock.
Q. And given all of the things that you've told us about, 9:30
Germaine Johnston - Cross
is about as early as you could have been there; is that fair?
A. I think that 9:30 is a pretty good estimate; but like I
say, I couldn't say for sure. It would just be a 10- or
15-minute variance there.
Q. No earlier than 9:30?
A. It might have been 9:25.
Q. Might have been 9:40?
A. That's true.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Objection to what it might have
been.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what time it was.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Whatever time it was, it was enough time for you to recover
from what had happened in the building, for workers to come and
get you going, to help you get oriented, to help you out of the
building, to have the workers put the tape around the building,
to get under -- around the tape, to try to meet people over in
the parking lot by the church, and to walk over to the YMCA and
then to eventually work your way down this alley; fair enough?
A. We actually did all that.
Q. And your best estimate is 9:30?
A. I think that's about right.
Q. Now, did you read in the media that Mr. McVeigh had been
arrested 77 miles from Oklahoma City at 10:20 that same
Germaine Johnston - Cross
morning?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Some 50 minutes or so after you had this encounter with
these two men?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You say the second man didn't look anything like the
sketch; is that correct?
A. I didn't -- I don't know about anything, but I didn't
recognize him from any of the sketches.
Q. Well, you'd seen in the media pictures of Tim McVeigh, had
you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you'd seen the sketches of John Doe 1 and 2?
A. Yes.
Q. And you'd seen pictures of the yellow Mercury?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, at the time you talked to the FBI was in September
of '95; correct?
A. If you say so. I don't remember for sure when it was.
Q. Does that sound about right, about four months after the
bombing?
A. Actually, I talked to the FBI two or three times that
summer.
Q. Right. I have two reports here that would indicate August
and September. Does that sound about right?
Germaine Johnston - Cross
A. Uh-huh.
Q. So some four months or so later?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you were trying to find your husband at the time; is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And eventually he found you?
A. Yes.
Q. And he took you for treatment?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's when you had the glass fragments removed as best
as possible, and you had a head wound, as I recall?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had that taken care of?
A. Yes. I thought it was taken care of. I ended up, there
were a couple more glass fragments; and I went to a
dermatologist and had a couple taken out. And then I had one
that worked its way out about two months later.
Q. And you characterized your medical problems as minor, but
you say that only because so many people suffered so much that
day?
A. Well, you know, I was very lucky to be alive.
MR. RYAN: Thank you. That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. THURSCHWELL: Your Honor, no redirect.
THE COURT: All right. Is the witness excused, then,
I take it?
MR. THURSCHWELL: Yes, your Honor.
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next please.
MR. WOODS: Ed Killam.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Edward Killam affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Edward Killam, K-I-L-L-A-M.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I'll put those things next to you, sir. Thank you.
Mr. Killam, will you tell the jury, please, what is
your business or occupation?
A. I'm a private investigator.
Q. How long have you been in the investigation field, sir?
A. Privately, about 19 years.
Q. Before you became a private investigator, did you work in
law enforcement?
A. Yes, I did.
Edward Killam - Direct
Q. Would you tell the jury what your experience was in law
enforcement before you became a private investigator.
A. Yes. I was with the Colorado State University Police
Department in Fort Collins, and then eventually I was the
detective sergeant of the Aspen Police Department.
Q. And in your police work, what kinds of work did you do?
A. In both departments, I started as a uniformed patrol
officer. I was patrol sergeant up in Aspen. In both
departments, I was a detective and then finally a detective
sergeant.
Q. Will you tell the jury, please, what is your educational
background.
A. I have a bachelor of science degree from Cornell University
and associate in applied science and police science from Mesa
State College here in Colorado and a master's degree in
forensic anthropology from Colorado State University.
Q. And you will appear here in several installments. Let's
finish your qualifications so we don't have to do it again.
Have you taken any chemistry courses?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. What were those?
A. At Cornell, I had two semesters of general inorganic
chemistry; and at Colorado State as a graduate student, I had
two quarters of organic chemistry.
Q. Do you have any certifications that are relevant to your
Edward Killam - Direct
work as an investigator?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. What are those?
A. I belong to several organizations: National Association of
Legal Investigators, associate member of the National Criminal
Defense Lawyers Association. I belong to the Professional
Private Investigators Association of Colorado. And then
certifications for the State of Colorado, certified as a police
officer, as a police academy instructor. And I have other
certifications which are less specific to police work.
Q. Do you have a certification as a firearm instructor?
A. Yes, I do, through the National Rifle Association.
Q. Have you published any articles in the field of
investigation and law enforcement?
A. Yes, I've published 35 articles over the years.
Q. Have you authored a book?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And has that book been published?
A. Yes, it has.
Q. What is the title of the book?
A. It's entitled "The Detection of Human Remains." It was a
version of my master's thesis which was reedited and
republished for police professional and coroners' offices.
Q. Directing your attention, sir, to the year of 1995, were
you appointed by the United States District Court for the
Edward Killam - Direct
Western District of Oklahoma to provide investigative services
to the Nichols defense team?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Do you remember about when that was?
A. It was in early June of 1995.
Q. And after you were investigated -- or after you were
appointed, rather, sir, did you have occasion to conduct a
search of 109 South 2nd Street, Herington, Kansas?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you receive the key from a member of the defense
team?
A. I did.
Q. Was it your understanding that that was after the FBI had
released the house?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you go to the house?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was it locked?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, sir, in that house, did you find some things connected
with model airplanes?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. I'm going to ask you to reach into the box there, the
brown cardboard box, and ask you to look at D1785, D17 --
without showing it to the jury, 1786, 1787, 1788, 1789, 1790,
Edward Killam - Direct
1791 -- actually, all the way, then, through 1796. If you
would just look at those items, please.
A. I've looked at them.
MS. WILKINSON: Excuse me, your Honor. Just to ease
this process, can I talk to Mr. Tigar about the list of --
THE COURT: You may.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me just a moment.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we step back here? We
have a little list problem, and it would simplify things
greatly if we could have a moment.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. WILKINSON: We're fine, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: All right.
Your Honor, we offer the exhibits numbered D1785
through D1796. I understand counsel may wish to voir dire with
respect to one of those.
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor, I think it would be
easier if we went through the exhibits. It's hard -- I just
didn't have a list for all the exhibits. So I would ask that
they wouldn't be brought in in one group, if we could go
through the exhibits.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Do you see 1785 there, sir?
Edward Killam - Direct
A. Can you describe it to me?
Q. A radio-control unit.
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we have no objection to
that item. Maybe if we do it that way, we'll make it go a
little more quickly.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. All right. Let's put that -- let's start a stack on your
desk, and we'll go through these. D1786, a red, white, and
blue cardboard box?
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: I'll receive --
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1787, airplane propeller.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar, let me receive them. D1785 and
D1786 received.
MR. TIGAR: I apologize to the Court.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1787, sir.
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: We offer that, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: I didn't hear what that was.
MR. TIGAR: Propeller.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: D1787 is received.
Edward Killam - Direct
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1788.
A. Can you describe it for me?
Q. A printed sheet entitled, "Byron Originals."
A. I have that.
MR. TIGAR: We offer that, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, D1788.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1789, the blueprint.
A. D1789.
MR. TIGAR: We offer that, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: May I look at that, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MS. WILKINSON: We have no objection.
THE COURT: D1789 received.
MR. TIGAR: Received?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, D1790, a pamphlet?
A. Did you say 1793?
Q. Yes -- no, 1790. 1790, a printed pamphlet.
A. I have it.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
Edward Killam - Direct
THE COURT: D1790 received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1791, a glow-plug igniter?
A. I have it.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: D1791 received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1792, a glow-plug igniter package card.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: D1792 received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1793, a pamphlet.
A. I have it.
MR. TIGAR: We offer D1793.
MS. WILKINSON: May I look at that, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
No objection.
THE COURT: D1793 received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1794, the two pieces of wood?
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: D1794 received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1795, the plastic bottle.
Edward Killam - Direct
A. I have it.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1796, a label?
THE COURT: D1795 is received.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. I'm sorry, your
Honor.
THE WITNESS: I have D1796.
MR. TIGAR: I offer D1796.
MS. WILKINSON: I need to look at that for a minute.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. WILKINSON: May I just ask one question on voir
dire?
THE COURT: Yes, right there.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam -- we know each other, don't we?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. That writing here, was that writing on there when you found
it?
A. Yes, it was.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: D1796 received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Edward Killam - Direct
Q. Sir, where did you find these items?
A. These were in a portion of the basement in Mr. Nichols'
home.
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Well, sir, without -- without going into a lot of detail,
what are these?
A. They're all either components or accessories for model
airplanes, gasoline or fuel-powered model airplanes.
Q. Now, you can put those back in the box, if you would, sir.
Do you find up there D1797?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And could you take that out and put it on the desk. I'd
like to ask you about did there come a time, sir, when you
went, at the direction of the defense team, to Marion, Kansas?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you have a conversation there with a person
identified as the person who lived in the worker's house at
that Donahue farm after Mr. Nichols moved out?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you also have a conversation with Mr. Donahue?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. As a result of those conversations, did you go to the trash
dump that serves the farm worker's house?
Edward Killam - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And did you recover the item which is in the bag marked
17 -- D1797?
A. Yes, I did.
MR. TIGAR: We offer D1797.
MS. WILKINSON: Just one question, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, this was in the trash can at Marion, Kansas,
was it?
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. Where was it?
A. It was on the open trash dump.
Q. It was on open trash dump. And it belonged to Mr. Nichols?
A. I don't know that, myself.
Q. Have you been informed that it belonged to Mr. Nichols?
A. No, I can't say that, either.
MS. WILKINSON: Could I have a moment with counsel?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: I don't object to the hearsay to
elicit the foundation.
MR. TIGAR: The Government does not object to the lack
of personal knowledge.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
Edward Killam - Direct
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Killam, were you told by someone that this had belonged
to Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. Who told you that?
A. I was told that the information had come originally from
Mr. Nichols, himself, and that this part had been left behind
at his former residence on the Donahue Ranch. I then contacted
Mr. Donahue and the current tenant and found that they had in
fact found it after he had moved out and had subsequently taken
it to the garbage dump.
Q. And where had this been found?
A. In the storage shed behind the ranch hand's house.
Q. The house where Mr. Nichols had been living?
A. That's correct.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. This hearsay is
received without objection.
MS. WILKINSON: And we have no objection to the
exhibit.
THE COURT: All right. 1797 --
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Would you open the bag, please, and tell us what you found.
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: It is the remains of a model airplane
Edward Killam - Direct
engine and propulsion system, propeller.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. And when you say "propulsion system," what is this
little -- well, let me put it on the machine and see if this
technology works.
I'm turning this over. What is this little thing at
the top there?
A. I believe that's the ignition point, where you turn it on.
Q. And is your understanding that this is the engine part?
A. The part in the center that your left hand is holding, I
believe it is the engine part; and the part that's by your
right hand is, I believe, the fuel tank.
Q. Okay. And when you -- what brand of propeller is this?
A. It's a Master Airscrew.
Q. And is that the same brand as the propeller that we've
already looked at that was in the cardboard box?
A. Yes, this is a Master Airscrew, also.
Q. Does it appear to be -- the Master Airscrew out of the
box -- what exhibit number is that?
A. It's D1787.
Q. Does that appear to be the same make and model as the
Master Airscrew propeller on this ruined thing that I'm holding
up on the ELMO?
A. It appears to be the same make, model, and size.
Q. Now, when you recovered this item, I noticed you used a
Edward Killam - Direct
polyethylene bag to do it. Were you planning to do any residue
testing on it?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Now, would you put those things back in the brown-colored
cardboard box.
And did there come a time in the recent past when you
were asked to attend a gun show?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Without going into where it was -- how many gun shows had
you attended before that?
A. In my whole life?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Probably a hundred or more.
Q. And those hundred gun shows, had you attended most of those
before you were appointed by Chief Judge Russell in this case?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. Now, at these gun shows, were you directed to look for
materials that related to explosives, incendiaries, and
pyrotechnics which, based on your experience, had been in
circulation and available at gun shows prior to April of 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And will you please take the box -- I'll move the -- this
one out of your way, sir.
And would you read off one at a time the exhibit
numbers of the exhibits in that box, please.
Edward Killam - Direct
A. D, as in David, 1669, D --
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I'm going to need to voir
dire on each exhibit, just briefly.
THE COURT: You can come up here and do it, if you'd
like.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
THE COURT: And you can see it.
There's no objection to that, is there, Mr. Tigar?
MR. TIGAR: No, of course not, your Honor.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, you're talking D1669; correct?
A. Yes, it is entitled The Flash Powder Cookbook.
Q. Have you personally read that book, Mr. Killam?
A. I have not read it. I have skimmed its contents.
Q. So are you prepared to answer questions about the contents
of the book?
A. If I have the ability to refer to it, probably, yes.
Q. Can you swear that this particular book was available at
any gun shows during the time period of October, '94, through
April of 1995?
A. No.
MS. WILKINSON: With that limitation, your Honor, we
have no objection. I'll just stand here.
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
THE COURT: All right. D1669 is received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1670, a book entitled -- well, tell us what that book is
entitled.
A. It is entitled Two-Component High Explosive Mixtures and
Improvised-Shaped Charges.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you read that book?
A. I have skimmed its contents, also.
Q. Again, the same answer that you could answer questions
about the contents if you were able to review the book?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Is that your testimony? And can you swear that that
particular book was available at any particular gun show from
October, '94, through April of '95?
A. No, I can't.
MR. TIGAR: D16 -- I'm sorry. We offer it, your
Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection with those limitations.
THE COURT: D1670 is received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Edward Killam - Direct
Q. D1671, Department of the Army field manual entitled Booby
Traps.
A. I have it.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, you weren't in the Army when that book came
out, were you?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Have you read it?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And are you familiar with the contents?
A. Yes, I have -- am.
Q. And can you swear that that particular book on booby traps
was available at any particular gun show from October of '94
through April of '95?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Which gun show was that?
A. I have seen it at each Tanner gun show that I have attended
in Denver.
Q. You can't say that that book was available at a gun show in
Kansas; correct?
A. That is correct, I cannot.
Q. Is the only gun show you can say you've seen that book
available in the time period we're discussing was here in
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
Colorado?
A. Correct.
Q. And in that specific show, the Tanner show?
A. The Tanner show in Denver.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection with those limitations.
THE COURT: D1771 received.
MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, the limitation is
counsel's limitation. These are admitted; right?
THE COURT: No. I'm admitting them with the
limitation that he can't say at what show, at what time a
particular book excepting where he can.
MR. TIGAR: Except where he can.
THE COURT: My understanding of his testimony is that
these materials have been available at shows that he's
attended.
That's your testimony, isn't it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: But you're not able to identify particular
ones as particular times except when you say you can?
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1672, Department of the Army field manual entitled
Edward Killam - Direct
Explosives and Demolitions?
A. I have it.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you reviewed this manual?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Familiar with its contents?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And can you testify that this field manual entitled
Explosives and Demolitions was available in any gun show,
specific gun show during the time period October, '94, through
April of '95?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Which gun show?
A. The Tanner gun shows in Denver.
Q. Is that the only one?
A. Yes. That is plural. The Tanner gun shows are held
approximately monthly.
Q. Monthly. During that time period of October, '94, through
April of '95?
A. Correct.
Q. You've not seen this book at any other gun shows?
A. Yes, I have. I've seen it at gun shows out of that
specific time period, in addition to that specific time period.
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection,
your Honor.
THE COURT: D1672 is received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1673, Department of the Army technical manual entitled
Unconventional Warfare Devices and Techniques.
A. I have it.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you read the contents of the manual
entitled Unconventional Warfare Devices and Techniques?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Are you familiar with its contents?
A. I am.
Q. Have you seen it at any gun shows available -- did you see
it at any gun shows available for purchase from October, '94,
through April of '95?
A. Yes.
Q. Which gun shows were those?
A. Tanner gun shows in Denver.
Q. Are those the only gun shows during that time period?
A. Of my personal knowledge, yes.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
THE COURT: It's received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1674, Department of the Army technical manual entitled
Improvised Munitions Handbook.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, I want to ask you the same questions. Did you
read this book?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Familiar with its contents?
A. Yes.
Q. And if I asked you the question about the time period from
October, 94, to April, '95, would you say that you have just
seen it at the Tanner gun shows in Denver?
A. Yes, I would.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, your Honor, we
have no objection.
THE COURT: Received, D1674.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1675, War Department technical manual entitled Military
Explosives.
A. I have it.
Edward Killam - Direct
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you read that book?
A. No, I've only skimmed it.
Q. And have you seen it available for purchase at gun shows
from the period of October, '94, through April of '95?
A. I can't recall if I've ever seen this one.
MS. WILKINSON: With that limitation -- with those
limitations, we have no objection.
THE COURT: Received, D1675.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D1676, book entitled Black Book Companion - State of the
Art Improvised Munitions?
A. I have that.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you read that book, the State of the Art
of Improvised Munitions?
A. I have only skimmed it.
Q. And have you seen it available at a gun show from October
of '94 through April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
MS. WILKINSON: No objection with those limitations.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Book -- D1677. That's a book, and what's the title of that
book, sir?
A. Improvised Munitions, Black Book, Volume 3.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you read that book on improvised
munitions?
A. I have skimmed it.
Q. Seen it at any gun shows for purchase during the period of
October, '94, through April of '95?
A. I cannot recall that I have.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. What's the next one in your box, sir?
MS. WILKINSON: Excuse me.
MR. TIGAR: Oh, I'm sorry.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection with those limitations,
your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. TIGAR: Sorry, your Honor.
Edward Killam - Direct
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. The next one in your box, sir?
A. The next one is D1678, The Chemistry of Powder and
Explosives.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, you said you had some familiarity with
chemistry, is that right?
A. Some.
Q. Limited, I take it?
A. Quite.
Q. How long ago was it when you went to college and took those
courses?
A. 1972.
Q. And have you read the book The Chemistry of Powder and
Explosives?
A. I have only skimmed it.
Q. And do you know whether that book was available for
purchase at any specific gun shows during October, '94, through
April of '95?
A. I do not know.
Q. You have no personal knowledge of seeing it available --
correct -- during that time period?
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
A. Not that book, that's correct.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, your Honor, we
have no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. What's the next one, sir?
A. The next item is D1679 entitled Ragnar's Guide to Home and
Recreational Use of High Explosives.
MR. TIGAR: We offer that.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. We're not going to talk about the title, are we,
Mr. Killam?
A. Only if you ask me.
Q. Have you read it?
A. I've only skimmed this one.
Q. Okay. And have you seen it available for purchase at any
time from October, '94, to April, '95?
A. Not of my own personal recollection.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection
to D1679.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Edward Killam - Direct
Q. Next one, sir?
A. Next one is D1680, Improvised Munitions Systems.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you read that book before coming to court
today?
A. I have skimmed this one.
Q. And have you seen it for sale at any gun shows during the
time period we're discussing, October, '94, through April of
'95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. The next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1681, The Do-It-Yourself Gunpowder
Cookbook.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, you've never used this cookbook, have you?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Have you read it?
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
A. I've skimmed this one.
Q. Seen it for sale in any gun shows from October of '94
through April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1682, Improvised Explosives - How to Make
Your Own.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Have you ever used this book to make your own improvised
explosives, Mr. Killam?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Are you familiar with the contents?
A. I'm familiar with the contents.
Q. Have you read it or just skimmed it?
A. Just skimmed this one.
Q. And have you seen that book for sale at any gun shows
during the time period of October, '94, and April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Next one, sir?
A. Next one is D1683 entitled Deadly Brew - Advanced
Improvised Explosives.
MR. TIGAR: We offer, your Honor.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, do you know if this discusses the consequences
of making an advanced improvised explosive device?
A. I don't know without reviewing it again.
Q. So you've just skimmed it?
A. Correct.
Q. Have you seen it available at any gun shows during the time
period that we're discussing, October of '94 through April of
'95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. The next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1684, Pyrotechnics, The Chemistry of
Powder and Explosives - Chapter 3.
Edward Killam - Direct
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, you purchased this book for purposes of your
testimony; correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Is the whole book just entitled Chapter 3, is a pamphlet?
A. It appears to be an excerpt from a larger publication.
This appears to be the chapter on pyrotechnics.
Q. And did you go and try and find this entire book?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And were you able to find it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you bring it to court today?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Is this one chapter that was sold separately?
A. It appears to be, yes.
Q. And are you familiar with The Chemistry of Powder and
Explosives?
A. I have skimmed this one.
Q. Seen it available at any gun shows during October of '94
through April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection with those limitations.
THE COURT: Received.
Edward Killam - Direct
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. What's the next one, sir?
A. Next one is D1685, New and Improved C-4 - Better-Than-Ever
Recipes for Half the Money and Double the Fun.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you read this book?
A. I have skimmed it.
Q. Have you seen it available or did you see it available for
purchase at any gun shows during October, 94, to April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. 16 -- the next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1686, Explosives Dusts - Advanced
Improvised Explosives.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, have you read this book in its entirety?
A. No, I've only skimmed it.
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
Q. Did you see it available for purchase during any gun shows
from October of '94, to April of 95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. The next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1687, Homemade C-4 - A Recipe for
Survival.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, you've read that book, haven't you?
A. I have skimmed this one.
Q. And did you see that for sale at any gun shows during
October of '94, through April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Next one, sir?
A. Next one is D1688, Improvised Radio Detonation Techniques.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
Q. Did you read this --
MS. WILKINSON: Excuse me.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Have you read this book?
A. Only skimmed it.
Q. And did you see it for sale at any gun shows during October
of '94, to April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection with those limitations.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. The next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1689, The Advanced Anarchist Arsenal -
Recipes for Improvised Incendiaries and Explosives.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, did you read this book?
A. I have skimmed this one.
Q. And do you know if this book talks about the consequences
of making a device of this type?
A. I don't know that without reviewing it again.
Q. Did you see this book, The Advanced Anarchist Arsenal,
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
available for sale at a gun show during the time period of
October of '94 through April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. The next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1691, Pipe and Fire Bomb Designs - A Guide
for Police Bomb Technicians.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
MS. WILKINSON: May I inquire, your Honor? I
believe -- did we just do 1689 before that?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Are we jumping 1690?
THE WITNESS: I don't have 1690 in front of me.
MS. WILKINSON: Okay.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, we're talking about D1691, Mr. Killam?
A. Right.
Q. And that's Pipe and Fire Bomb Designs - A Guide for Police
Bomb Technicians?
A. Correct.
Q. Have you read that book?
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
A. Only skimmed it.
Q. Did you see that available for purchase at a gun show
during October of '94 through April of '95 time period?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. D -- the next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1692, Explosives and Propellants From
Commonly Available Materials.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did you read that book before coming to court, Mr. Killam?
A. Only skimmed it.
Q. And did you see it available for purchase at any gun shows
during the time period of October of '94 to April of '95?
A. Not that I can recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. The next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1693.
Edward Killam - Direct
MR. TIGAR: We offer --
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. What's the title, sir?
A. Titled Improvised Munitions from Ammonium Nitrate.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, did you read this pamphlet before you came to
court today?
A. Some time ago; but, yes, I have read that one.
Q. It's not too long -- right -- 37 pages?
A. It's short.
Q. And does it discuss how to use ammonium nitrate in an
explosive device?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Does it give you the different formulas you can use using
prills of ammonium nitrate?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And did you ever see this book available for sale at a gun
show during the period of October, '94, through April of '95?
A. Not that I can independently recall.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Edward Killam - Direct
Q. And the next one, sir?
A. The next one is D1694, Kitchen Improvised Fertilizer
Explosives.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Killam, this book talks about kitchen -- or it's called
Kitchen Improvised Fertilizer Explosives; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. This book also discusses ammonium nitrate?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And have you compared this book, Defendant's Exhibit 1694,
with the one that was just previously entered into evidence,
Defense Exhibit 1693, on Improvised Munitions from Ammonium
Nitrate?
A. No, I've never compared the contents of the two.
Q. Have you compared any of the books that you're bringing
into court today?
A. I have looked at some of the formulas contained within
various publications.
Q. Are they similar?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And do they discuss the formulas used for ammonium nitrate
and fuels?
A. Yes, they do.
Edward Killam - Voir Dire
Q. Did you ever see Defense 1694 available for sale at a gun
show during the time period of October, '94, through April,
'95?
A. Not that I can independently recall.
Q. I don't know if I asked you. Did you read or just skim it?
A. I read that.
MS. WILKINSON: With those limitations, no objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. TIGAR: I'll take the box.
MS. WILKINSON: Is that all the books?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Oh, thank you.
MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry.
MS. WILKINSON: There were more on the list.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Killam, you mentioned on the questions asked on voir
dire with respect to some of these exhibits that you had seen
some of these books before the episode in which you purchased
them at a gun show. Do you remember that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, with respect to -- when's the first time you can
remember reading a book or pamphlet about how to build an
improvised explosive device?
A. About 1974.
Edward Killam - Direct
Q. And in what connection was that that you began reading
about how to build an improvised explosive device?
A. Part of my responsibilities with the police department was
to handle bomb-threat and bomb-search incidents, and so I
attended numerous -- not numerous, but several law enforcement
training seminars on improvised explosive devices, how to
conduct bomb searches and deal with bomb-threat situations.
And I acquired a number of those books during that time period
and made them part of the department library.
Q. Where did you acquire them?
A. From gun shows.
Q. Now, that was in 1974?
A. And in the mid 1970's, yes.
Q. Now, after you left the police department, did you continue
to acquire reading materials about bombs?
A. A few, yes.
Q. And in the intervening years from 1974 to 1977, about how
many gun shows a year did you attend?
A. It depended on the year, but somewhere usually between five
and ten per year.
Q. And are the materials that we have reviewed here and that
are now in evidence typical of the kinds of materials about
explosives and pyrotechnics that you saw at gun shows during
that time?
A. It would depend upon the nature of the gun show, but
Edward Killam - Direct
generally, yes; that's correct.
Q. Now, in what parts of the country have you attended gun
shows?
A. All over the country except for the deep southeast.
Q. And when you say it depends on the type of gun show, tell
the jury what the differences are among or between the types of
gun shows.
A. Sure. There are gun shows that are regional, and there are
also gun shows on particular topics. For instance, I'm a
collector of antique military shoulder arms. So there are
specific gun shows around the country which deal with the focus
on Civil War arms or Colonial and Revolutionary War arms or
western arms like Colts and Winchesters, so some of the shows
are specific to a particular type of collectible firearm.
Other gun shows which are held more frequently are general
shows. They have a variety of hunting guns, handguns, and
other general merchandise.
Q. And at which type of gun show would you see booklets,
pamphlets, books like have just been introduced in evidence?
A. At the more common, general, open-merchandise shows.
Q. I'm not going to go through all of these in detail, but did
you check the editions or print date on each of the items that
we've introduced in evidence here?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And here is Defendant's 1669. It says, "First Printing
Edward Killam - Direct
1991"; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And then it has the legend BATF for which -- and then it
says "Bold American Tough Firearms," does it?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Now, this book, D1670, says -- is Two-Component, High
Explosive Mixtures and Improvised Shape Charges. Does it -- if
we were to leaf through here, we would see information about a
number of things, including nitromethane solid explosives;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. Now, 1671 is a Department of the Army field
manual; correct?
A. It's a reprint of Department of Army field manual, yes.
Q. And -- and this is entitled, Booby Traps. Is this one that
you had been familiar with before you made this shopping trip?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And in what connection had you been familiar with it?
A. This was part of our department library.
Q. Now, here is a book, the one that you were mentioning,
Ragnar's Guide to Home and Recreational Use of High Explosives,
by someone named Ragnar Benson; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And this is published by whom?
A. Paladin Press of Boulder, Colorado.
Edward Killam - Direct
Q. Now, are you familiar with Paladin Press?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And what kinds of materials does Paladin Press publish?
A. They produce various sorts of books for the general public
having to do with survival techniques, firearms, explosives,
military subject areas.
Q. Now, does -- where does Paladin Press, to your knowledge,
market their books that they sell?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: He's asked if he knows.
MS. WILKINSON: His personal knowledge, I take it.
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: I can make it more precise, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Fine.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Have you seen Paladin Press books sold at gun shows?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in what -- what format? How are they marketed there?
A. Typically they're on a bookrack or laid on tables for sale.
Q. Now, is that -- does -- does the bookrack or table say
"Paladin Press," or are these resellers that are selling them
that you've observed?
A. These are resellers.
Q. Now, this Improvised Munitions from Ammonium Nitrate,
Edward Killam - Direct
Defendant's Exhibit 1693, who is that published by?
A. Desert Publications, El Dorado, Arkansas.
Q. And what is the -- can you read the copyright date?
A. Yes. Copyright 1980.
Q. And they say they are a division of the Delta Group; is
that right?
A. It says Desert Publication, a division of the Delta Group,
Limited.
Q. Now, before you purchased this book, which is copyright
1980 by Desert Publications, had you seen any publications that
you can recall by this Arkansas outfit?
A. I was familiar with Desert Publications as a publishing
entity, yes.
Q. And how had you become familiar with them?
A. Because like Paladin Press, they also publish a number of
books and booklets on military firearms and explosive-related
topics.
Q. And in the years from 1974 to 1995, about how many times
had you seen exhibits or displays of this Desert Publications
books at gun shows you attended?
A. It would be difficult to estimate it. They were common.
That's the best I can do.
Q. And would your testimony be the same, that they were common
with respect to books by Paladin Press at the gun shows you
attended during that period?
Edward Killam - Direct
A. That would be fair, yes.
MR. TIGAR: May I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, Mr. Killam. I have
no further questions.
THE COURT: Miss Wilkinson.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning again, Mr. Killam.
A. Good morning.
Q. You told us when you were describing your credentials that
you belong to the Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers; is
that right?
A. As an associate member; that's correct.
Q. You're not a defense lawyer; right?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. But you work with them quite frequently?
A. Very frequently.
Q. And in connection with this case, when you were appointed,
you were not personally contacted by the court, were you?
A. No, I was not.
Q. You were contacted by Mr. Tigar?
A. Originally, yes.
Q. And he asked you to work with him on this case; correct?
Edward Killam - Cross
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, you've told us that during your time with the -- I
believe it was the Colorado State University Police Department;
is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. That you started to collect books on explosives?
A. No, not until after that time period.
Q. Okay. What were you doing at that time period, then, when
you collected those books on explosives?
A. I was with the Aspen Police Department.
Q. And you were collecting these books in your official
capacity as a law enforcement official; correct?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. You weren't reading them for your personal pleasure?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you weren't reading them because you wanted to learn
how to make a bomb, yourself; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. You were reading them because you were worried about the
threat; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you wanted to be informed as a law enforcement
official?
A. Correct.
Q. So that's why you maintained a library of those books; is
Edward Killam - Cross
that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, when you went and searched Mr. Nichols' house after
the FBI had left it locked, you went in there and searched the
entire house, didn't you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You went into every room?
A. Yes.
Q. You opened all the drawers?
A. Yes.
Q. Opened boxes?
A. Yes.
Q. You looked at everything so you could have a full
accounting of what was left behind; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. So you're familiar with everything that remained in
Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. You might need some documents to refresh your recollection,
but you know what was left there; correct?
A. Yes. Or photographs I may need to refer to.
Q. And so while you may not have testified to all of that
today, if at some point you're called to discuss what was found
in Mr. Nichols' house, you could do that?
A. Yes, I could.
Edward Killam - Cross
Q. And was it your understanding when you took custody of the
house or you were able to open the house with the key, that it
was in the same condition as when the FBI left it?
A. That was my assumption.
Q. All right. You don't have any knowledge of anyone going
into the home and placing anything in there after the FBI left;
correct?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. But it's your understanding, because you've testified today
about some of the things that you've found, that those items
were there when the FBI left?
A. I presume that they were.
Q. Well, the items that you've testified about, the
model-airplane materials, you found those in Mr. Nichols'
house?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you don't have any reason to believe that someone else
placed them after the FBI left, do you?
A. No, I have no reason to believe that anyone did.
Q. Now, you told us that all of these books that we've
introduced into evidence you can't say were available at any
gun shows Mr. Nichols might have attended during October, '94,
through April of '95; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you don't have any personal knowledge of whether
Edward Killam - Cross
Mr. Nichols read these books or not; right?
A. No, I don't.
Q. But you have familiarized yourself with the text?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And you know from reading these books that it's fairly easy
to construct an improvised explosive device; is that right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And these books, including D1693, lay it out for you, don't
they?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. They tell you the components that you need?
A. Yes.
Q. They tell you you can use ammonium nitrate prills?
A. Yes.
Q. They tell you you can use fuel?
A. Yes.
Q. And some of these books tell you you can use fuel oil;
right?
A. That's correct.
Q. They tell you you can use nitromethane?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And they tell you that once you have those items, that then
you just need a booster; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And some way to ignite that booster?
Edward Killam - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. And all of that is spelled out in these books?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And it says that you can use different kind of containers
for ammonium nitrate and a fuel; correct?
A. I don't recall that they address containers, but they may.
Q. Okay. And do you know if any of these books address the
type of damage that you can do with that type of device?
A. Once again, I don't recall that they do, but they may.
Q. You didn't become familiar with those portions of that
book; correct?
A. That's correct. Without reviewing them.
Q. Okay. When you reviewed these books to become familiar
with them for your testimony, were you ever asked to compare
these books or the instructions given in these books to the
book the Hunter?
A. No, I was never asked to compare them.
Q. So you can't tell us whether the facts in the Hunter that
set forth how you make an ammonium nitrate bomb and how you
detonate it are accurate in comparison to these books; is that
right?
A. I have read both of the publications that you have
mentioned; but I was not specifically asked to compare the
techniques used.
Q. Well, you have no reason to believe that the bomb described
Edward Killam - Cross
in the Hunter couldn't detonate; isn't that right?
A. I think the description was a little bit short on
specifics; but as described, I don't have any reason to believe
that it would fail.
Q. Well, it tells you that you can get ammonium nitrate from a
supply store; correct?
A. Yes, I believe it does.
Q. It tells you you need a fuel; right?
A. Yes.
Q. It tells you you can use plastic pails, 55-gallon drums, I
believe it says, doesn't it?
A. It may well say 55-gallon drums.
Q. It says you can use a blasting cap?
A. Yes.
Q. Put those items in a truck?
A. It describes a truck.
Q. And detonate them in front of a building; correct?
A. I don't recall if it was in front of a building or in an
underground parking garage.
Q. All right, you are right about the underground garage. And
it even describes that you can use Tovex in that book, doesn't
it?
A. I don't recall that detail.
Q. And in that book, it describes the actual detonation,
doesn't it?
Edward Killam - Cross
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And is that consistent with the detonation that's described
in 1693, Improvised Munitions from Ammonium Nitrate?
A. I don't recall if there's a detonation described in that
publication.
Q. In some of the publications, there are detonations
described; correct? They even talk about the velocity of
detonation, don't they?
A. I believe they describe the detonations, yes.
Q. And it was consistent with the damage described in the book
the Hunter; correct?
A. I can't say that those books describe the damage, so I
couldn't compare the two.
Q. So you don't know anything about velocity of detonation of
explosives; is that right?
A. I know about the general classification of different types
of explosives based on their detonation velocity, but few
details of what those might be.
Q. Well, you're familiar with it to know that ammonium nitrate
and fuel oil is a midrange-velocity explosive; right?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And that's somewhere in the range of 9,000 to 20,000 feet
per second; correct?
A. Other than the testimony that I heard the other day, I
couldn't say that of my own knowledge.
Edward Killam - Cross
Q. So all you know is it's a midrange velocity?
A. Yes, I'm familiar with the categories of low, mid, and
high.
Q. Are you familiar with the fact that ammonium nitrate and
fuel oil is used to push and heave materials as an explosive?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And the destruction described in the Hunter was consistent
with pushing and heaving, wasn't it?
A. I can't say that I recall that much detail.
Q. So you're not that familiar with the book?
A. That's correct.
MS. WILKINSON: I have no further questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
MR. TIGAR: Briefly.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Killam, you've read D1693; correct?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And have you read it -- if someone were to ask you, "Do you
know how to make an improvised explosive device that would do a
lot of damage," what would the answer be?
A. The answer would be yes.
Q. And would that -- that's all one had read, that would be a
truthful answer to that question; is that what you're saying?
Edward Killam - Redirect
A. Yes, it would.
Q. Now, counsel asked you at the beginning: Did I ask you to
join this defense team. I'd like to go through the rest of the
details. Were you required to provide a resume?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were you -- it's your understanding that resume had to be
attached to a motion?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. And was that motion then submitted to Chief Judge Russell
of the United States District Court?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And was it he, upon reviewing that material that was
submitted, who signed an order appointing you to this case?
A. He signed the order.
MR. TIGAR: No further questions.
MS. WILKINSON: We have no more questions. I
understand this witness, though, will be available to re-call.
THE COURT: Yes. He's going to be back on the stand;
right?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: At a different time.
MR. TIGAR: This is a serial event.
THE COURT: You may step down now, Mr. Killam.
MR. TIGAR: May I retrieve the exhibits from the
witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: That's the end of our witnesses today,
your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, members of the jury, our usual
schedule here is to go till 1:00 on Friday, but you were so
good this week coming through the ice and snow that we're going
to give you an early recess. And another reason is we're ahead
of schedule on our witnesses which is -- I'm sure you have in
your minds a question, well, how long is it going to be and all
that. I can't give you today a specific answer with respect to
that. I am working with counsel. They are working with the
Court to assist in this; but of course what we must do is take
the time that is necessary to get the information that's being
offered through these witnesses and exhibits, so bear with us.
I'll probably be able to tell you next week better how much
more to expect; but stay with us, recognize that you have not
been given the case. You are going to hear the testimony of
other witnesses, and there will be other exhibits. And with
respect to the exhibits, of course we just received a whole
library here this morning; but I want to reassure you with
respect to that, you're not going to be asked to read every
page of every book. So don't pale at that thought.
Counsel will be, in their closing arguments, I'm sure,
addressing the exhibits and suggesting to you your approach to
the exhibits; and I'll have something to say about that, too,
in the instructions. But I don't want you to get the wrong
idea that every document that comes in has to be examined in
detail, but of course all of the exhibits that have been
received will be available to you during deliberations. In
fact, there will be a room containing the exhibits and an index
so that you can properly utilize them.
Now, I mention that just so that you have some idea of
how it is that we will actually handle exhibits. Some were
received, of course, as demonstrative exhibits which simply
mean that just as the testimony of the witnesses for whom they
were received as demonstrative or illustrative exhibits, you
can consider them at the time they're used, but they don't
actually come into the exhibit room and be there for you. So
there's that distinction, and I'll explain all of that in much
greater detail at the time that I instruct you in the case
which comes as the last thing in the presentation of the case.
So, you know, we have a ways to go; and accordingly
and the time of this recess now, please continue to do as
you've been doing at all recesses, keeping open minds until you
have heard it all, avoiding discussion among yourselves and
with all other persons of anything that could in any way relate
to the case which, as I've told you before, covers a very broad
subject matter now; and be careful about all of those things
that you may come into contact with as you read, see, and hear
material to stay away of anything -- from anything that could
conceivably influence you, knowing that your obligation under
the oath taken and under the law is to decide according to
what's presented to you in the course of this trial.
So with that, members of the jury, we're going to
excuse you now until 8:45 on Monday morning. You're excused.
(Jury out at 12:28 p.m.)
THE COURT: Sounds like the jury was in favor of an
early recess.
I'd like to see counsel at 1:30.
MR. TIGAR: 1:30.
THE COURT: And we'll discuss some of these scheduling
matters at that time.
All right. Court's in recess.
(Recess at 12:29 p.m.)
* * * * *
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Germaine Johnston
Direct Examination by Mr. Thurschwell
Cross-examination by Mr. Ryan
Edward Killam
Direct Examination by Mr. Tigar
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12872
(Edward Killam)
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12875
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12879
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12879
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12881
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12883
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12884
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12884
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12885
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12886
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12886
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12888
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12888
(Edward Killam)
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12889
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12890
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12891
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12891
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12893
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12893
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12894
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12894
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12895
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12896
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12897
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12897
(Edward Killam)
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12898
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Tigar 12900
Cross-examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Redirect Examination by Mr. Tigar
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
D1669 12878 12879
D1670 12879 12879
D1672 12882 12883
D1674 12884 12884
D1675 12885 12885
D1676 12885 12886
D1677 12886 12886
D1678 12887 12888
D1679 12888 12888
D1680 12889 12889
D1681 12889 12890
D1682 12890 12891
D1683 12891 12891
D1684 12892 12892
D1685 12893 12893
D1686 12893 12894
D1687
D1688 12895 12895
D1689 12895 12896
D1691 12896 12897
D1692 12897 12897
D1693 12898 12898
D1694 12899 12900
D1771 12880 12881
D1773 12883 12884
D1785-D1786
D1785-D1796 12868
D1787 12869 12869
D1788 12870 12870
D1789 12870 12870
D1790 12870 12871
D1791
D1792
D1793 12871 12871
D1794
D1795
D1796 12872 12872
D1797 12874 12875
* * * * *
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 5th day of December, 1997.
_______________________________
Kara Spitler
