The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols

Thursday, December 18, 1997 (afternoon)

              IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
 
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
 
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
 
    Plaintiff,
 
vs.
 
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
 
    Defendant.
 

 
                     REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
                 (Trial to Jury:  Volume 134)

         Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 5:00 p.m., on the 18th day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.


 Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
  Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
    P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
                          APPEARANCES
         PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
         LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
         MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308,
Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
                         *  *  *  *  *
                          PROCEEDINGS
    (In open court at 5:00 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         We'll return the jury and see if they want to recess.
I suspect they do.
    (Jury in at 5:00 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, good afternoon.
         JURORS:  Good afternoon.
         THE COURT:  I've asked you to return to the courtroom
at this time because this has been the time when we usually
recess.  And I've assumed that you want to recess at this time
and rest a bit before continuing your deliberations, so that's
what we'll do.
         Now, speaking of scheduling, as I mentioned, of
course, I want to repeat what I said in the instructions; and
that is that you, as the jury, are not to reveal to this court
or any person how the jury stands numerically or otherwise on
the issues before you until after you have reached a unanimous
verdict, and nothing that I say to you is in any way asking you
to suggest or in any way reveal to us the status of your
deliberations.  I'm not asking about that at all.  And of
course, the timing of your deliberations is entirely a matter
for the 12 of you, and nothing that I say to you should in any
way be interpreted by you as suggesting that I have any
opinions as to what time it should take you to decide the case
or anything like that.  I want to be clear about that.
         But I also want to address what our usual schedule has
been throughout the trial.  Tomorrow is Friday.  Our regular
schedule throughout the trial has been that on Fridays, we have
simply gone straight through till 1:00 and then recessed and
have provided then a long weekend recess.
         Now, there were reasons for doing that, not just to
assist in accommodating anything that any of you had, you know,
with respect to child care or other obligations with your
family and likewise, but it also assisted us in presenting the
case, because it gave the lawyers and the people working with
them some time to contact the witnesses, arrange for the
travel, bring them in, and so forth.  So early recess on Friday
afternoon was particularly helpful to us in keeping the trial
going according to the schedule.
         That, of course, is no longer the case; and
accordingly, it is not something that we require of you that
you recess at 1:00 tomorrow.  As a matter of fact, I would
suggest that if need be that you work longer than that.  But it
could well be also that because I told you that we were not
going to sequester you as a deliberating jury that some of you
made some commitments or something that -- anticipating that if
you were still deliberating you would recess.  And if that is
true, I want you to advise Mr. Manspeaker about it when we do
recess.  But we have the support staff available here; and we
can work with you, you know, as you choose.  And that can
include into the weekend, if you were to choose to do that.
I'm not going to tell you that you have to and I'm not in any
way suggesting to you, you know, we think you ought to get this

job done within a certain time or anything like that.  Please
understand that.
         We know that you've been given a lot of evidence and
it's been a long trial.  And we certainly expect that you will
take whatever time is necessary to take to analyze that
evidence and come to a reasoned, rational decision about it.
And there is no one who can suggest what time that would be.
So please understand that.
         But I would again suggest if it does not inconvenience
anyone and if the time is necessary that we do a regular
workday tomorrow.  But again, if some of you have a problem
with that because you have done something or made some
commitments in reliance on the old schedule, you tell us.
         Now, of course, we are going to recess for this day
and send you home for, I hope, some relaxation and opportunity
to, you know, get away from this for a while.  And that's what
we hope you will do during this time.  But again, of course,
just as I always repeated the cautionary instructions that were
then applicable throughout the course of the trial, I do again
repeat what I told you since you've been a deliberating jury:
to remember that each one of you is 1/12 of the jury; that you
work together as a jury, and that you should not therefore do
anything on your own with respect to the case or -- and, of
course, not discuss it with anyone else, not any other members
of the jury or anyone else, of course, and to again continue to
be extremely careful during the time that you're away from us
to avoid anything in any form of communication or publication
that could in any manner interfere with your solemn obligation
and sworn obligation to decide this case according to the law
and the evidence.
         So again, put the matter to rest until you're
reconvened in the morning.
         So members of the jury, you're now recessed in your
deliberations and free to go, and we'll expect you here at
8:30, about, in the morning to resume when you're all together
and your foreperson is presiding.  And as I say, if any of you
have a conflict problem with respect to scheduling tomorrow,
let Mr. Manspeaker know.
         We hope you have a pleasant and restful evening.
You're excused for now.
    (Jury out at 5:07 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  We'll keep in touch.
         MR. MACKEY:  Your Honor, may I approach about
scheduling?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
    (At the bench:)
    (Bench Conference 134B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order.  It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)

    (In open court:)
         THE COURT:  All right.  We'll be in recess subject to
call.
    (Recess at 5:08 p.m.)
                         *  *  *  *  *
                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
    I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.  Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 18th day of December, 1997.


                                 _______________________________
                                         Paul Zuckerman