The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Tuesday, December 30, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 146)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:45 a.m., on the 30th day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, and RANDAL SENGEL, Assistant U.S.
Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park
Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing
for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, REID
NEUREITER, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln
Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for
Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Counsel wish to approach?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 146B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
(Jury in at 8:48 p.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
I apologize for the few minutes' delay, but counsel
and I discussed some matters here concerning scheduling
witnesses; and we're ready to proceed with the next witness.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, Judge. We'll call Mr. Kevin
Gottshall.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Kevin Gottshall affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Kevin Lee Gottshall. Last name is
G-O-T-T-S-H-A-L-L.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Gottshall.
A. Good morning.
Q. Tell the jury, please, how old you are.
A. I'm 33.
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
Q. And where do you reside?
A. In Houston, Texas.
Q. Did you live for any period of your life in the state of
Oklahoma?
A. I did.
Q. And did you go to school there?
A. I did. I went to undergraduate school, received a
bachelor's degree from the University of Oklahoma in Norman,
and went on to law school there for an additional three years.
Q. When did you graduate from law school in the University of
Oklahoma?
A. In 1989.
Q. And after graduation, what did you do for employment?
A. I went to work for Kerr-McGee Corporation. I had been
working for the supreme court in the state while I was in law
school, and then I went on to work for Kerr-McGee. I had
always wanted to practice working for a corporation.
Q. And are you still employed by Kerr-McGee?
A. I am. About the first of this year, I changed positions,
and I'm working in the land department now as a petroleum
landman for Kerr-McGee, and that required that we move to
Houston to take that position.
Q. And when was it that you moved to Houston?
A. That was the end of April of this year.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, are you married?
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
A. I am.
Q. And what is your wife's name?
A. It's Cheryl.
Q. And was Cheryl also employed for a period of time at
Kerr-McGee?
A. She was, yes.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, did you and Cheryl have a son by the name of
Kevin Lee Gottshall?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And when was he born?
A. He was born September 29 of 1994.
Q. And when did he die?
A. He died April 19 of 1995.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, would you tell the members of the jury where
the Kerr-McGee building is in Oklahoma City in relationship to
the Murrah Building.
A. Yes. The Kerr-McGee building is approximately one block
south.
THE COURT: Mr. Gottshall, would you face the
microphone, please. When he says tell the jury, he doesn't
necessarily mean address them.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I can't move the chair.
THE COURT: It'll spin around. Excuse me. Go ahead
with your answer.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
Q. Approximately how far are the two buildings apart from each
other?
A. Approximately two blocks, yes.
Q. Could you tell the members of the jury and his Honor the
process you went through with your wife to select a day-care
center for your son, Lee.
A. We -- we took a lot of pains. He was a very wanted child.
We took a lot of pains to try to make sure everything in his
life was going to be as good as possible. We -- before he was
born, my wife was meticulous with the vitamins, with, you know,
reading books on -- on raising children, on -- on what should
be done, never missing an appointment. We did the ultrasounds.
We carried the videos, the picture, unborn pictures of him with
us. We were so proud. This was our first -- first child.
Again, we wanted to do everything as best we could; and one of
those things, you know, we -- we moved into a new home that was
a little bit bigger, had more modern heat and those things,
would be a little more safe for him.
Q. Was -- let me ask you with respect to the day-care center.
Was security an important ingredient to your decision to select
the day care at the Murrah Building?
A. It most definitely was. We -- we went to a number of
day-care centers around the downtown area. One of the things
that we really wanted was someplace that was very close. We
wanted to be able to be -- be able to visit him very
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
frequently. We looked at the Murrah Building very closely and
ultimately selected it because we felt like it was going to be
safe. We talked to the workers, the care workers. Very nice,
very caring people. We felt like we could trust them.
There was a security door going into the nursery where
you have to ring a buzzer and someone would physically have to
come to the door and identify you and ask you, you know,
what -- what child you were coming for or what your purpose was
there. And they would escort you around, and we were very
impressed with that. We felt like it was a very -- very safe,
very clean, friendly, loving environment for him to be at.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, when did your son, Lee, first begin
attending the day care at the Murrah Building?
A. Well, we -- we attempted to postpone it as long as we
could, both my wife and I working for Kerr-McGee --
MR. TIGAR: Objection.
THE COURT: Mr. Gottshall, just answer the question,
will you please.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Approximately --
THE COURT: When did he first attend?
THE WITNESS: It was approximately in January, I
believe.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
Q. And thereafter, up until the time of the bombing, did you
and your wife and your son have a daily ritual that you
followed with respect to arriving at work and seeing your son?
A. We did. We postponed a day-care decision as long as we
could. And when it came time, we would get up every morning --
my wife would get up and we'd take him and get him dressed. He
would sit in the bathroom while we were showering and getting
around. He would get in the back seat of the car. We placed
the car seat in the middle of the back seat as we thought it
was the most safe. Then we would commute in from Norman. It's
about -- Norman is about 20, 25 miles south of Oklahoma City
from our office. And we would all drive in together every
morning, and we could talk to him. My wife and I could talk to
our son. We could play with him. Gave us a very secure
feeling of having him there with us.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, during the course of each day, was there a
practice that you and your wife had to visit your son at the
Murrah Building?
A. Yes, there was. We would routinely drop him off together.
We -- we'd kiss him goodbye. We would go back to work. My
wife's position was an executive secretary, which allowed her
some flexibility to be able to go visit him usually once in the
morning. Both she and I would go over for lunch. If for some
reason, my job wouldn't allow me to go for lunch, she would go.
He never ate lunch without one of us there. And then she would
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
also be able to visit him routinely once in the afternoon. And
we would pick him up together, and we'd all go home.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, let me turn now to April 19th. Did you and
your wife drop your son, Lee, off at the day care in the Murrah
Building on that day?
A. That particular day, my wife had a seminar within the
Kerr-McGee building complex. I had to drop her off early.
She -- we dropped her off. She gave him a kiss goodbye as she
always did every day, told him that she loved him, and told him
to be a good boy. I proceeded on and I took him to the day
care -- excuse me -- I took him to the day-care center alone
that day. There was an area for the day-care center that was a
loading area, and it was allowed for people to park there
temporarily while they took their children -- excuse me --
upstairs to get their children settled in. I parked there,
took him out of his car seat, carried him up one flight of
stairs, rang the buzzer, went in, made sure that there was, you
know -- that the proper people were there, people that I was
used to, and went and laid him down in his little bouncer next
to the glass window there in the infants' part of the nursery.
I gave him a kiss goodbye, saw he was okay, went back down to
my car and went on to work.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, was that the last time you saw your son?
A. It was the last time I saw him, yes.
Q. Let me show you what I would offer into evidence at this
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
time, a photograph marked 2221.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 2221 is received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Gottshall, would you tell members of the jury and his
Honor the persons who are shown in this photograph.
A. The person -- excuse me -- the person to the left is my
son, Lee. The person to the right in the photograph is my
grandfather, Lee's great-grandfather. His name was Lee, also.
He was my mother's -- mother's father.
Q. Approximately when was this picture taken?
A. This would have been less than a month before my son was
killed.
Q. And how old was Lee at the time of his death?
A. He was approximately six-and-a-half months.
Q. Thank you. On April 19th, Mr. Gottshall, how did you first
become aware that there had been a bombing in downtown Oklahoma
City?
A. At the time, I was on (sic) our 10th floor conference room.
As I said, the Kerr-McGee building is -- is very close to the
Murrah Building. Tremendous bang. Violent movement of our
building. The Kerr-McGee building is a 29-story building, and
there's very little that makes it move. And so this was a
tremendous blast. It was a thud. Initially, I didn't know
what it was. I was on the north side, but was somewhat
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
shielded by a building that's in between.
Q. Let me ask, Mr. Gottshall, shortly after you heard this
sound, did it come to your attention through a news report that
there had been a bombing?
A. It did. After I heard the sound, you know, everyone was
kind of running around our floor, trying to figure out what had
happened. Some of the windows on our floor on the 10th floor
there had been broken, busted out. I was running around the
floor, trying to figure out what was going on. Someone in
their office had a radio on, and I heard that there had been an
explosion around the Murrah Building, and I immediately ran for
the elevator to get down. It was functioning okay. I went
down -- downstairs and headed over toward the building as I had
taken the same path that I would go to visit -- visit my son.
When I got to the corner of the -- the street corner
where the Murrah Building used to sit, I found my wife in
panic. A policewoman was restraining her. She was holding her
back. She had been on the first floor at the seminar, and she
had glass on her where it had blown in. The first floor wasn't
shielded, and huge pieces of glass had come in on her. She
told me that she had been up to the front of the building, the
entrance on the south side where we would usually go in to
visit him, and that there was granite and concrete in the way
and it was blocking the entrance and you couldn't get in.
Q. Did you and your wife proceed up Robinson towards 5th
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
Street to look on the north side of the building?
A. We did. We did. The policewoman was trying to keep my
wife back, but she somehow knew that I would be coming around
that corner and allowed her to wait. And then we proceeded up
Robinson, as you said, to try to get a better view of -- of
what had happened. We thought perhaps if this side of the
building, south side, had been blocked, then maybe the north
side would be better.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, what did you think when you saw the north
side of the Murrah Building?
A. It's -- it's the worst feeling I think that you can ever
have in your life. You -- the floors had all collapsed upon
the day-care center. And it seemed as though to me that --
that the area where the infant room was was the most hardest
hit. It -- it was where most of the damage had been done to
the building. We couldn't imagine any way that -- that, you
know, our child could survive had he been in that room. And of
course, you know, your thoughts are to try to -- well, there's
got to be some other way. Maybe someone carried him out, some
glimmer of hope, that way, and --
Q. Mr. Gottshall, how many days passed before you were
officially notified that Lee had died?
A. It was approximately two-and-a-half weeks that we were
forced to wait. We -- we -- we searched around. We went --
called hospitals. We went to the Red Cross unit. We talked --
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
tried to talk to police. We saw people bleeding. We stood in
the area. And after we went to the Red Cross unit, we didn't
feel like there was any more we could do there, and we had to
go home and tell our parents what had -- what had happened.
Q. Mr. Gottshall, I have one final question. If you would,
please, describe in your own words the impact of your son's
death on you and your wife and your family members.
A. It's a -- definitely the most horrible thing that's ever
happened to me in my lifetime. There's not a day that goes by
that I don't miss Lee. We have pictures of him around the
house. We still talk to him. Instead of having birthday
parties and things that we had planned for him for an education
and those things, we get to go visit his grave site.
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained with respect to visits to the
grave site.
THE WITNESS: We -- my wife has terrible nightmares,
will wake up screaming in the night. Perhaps the most
troubling thing, I guess, is that we -- we now have two other
children. We've lost our firstborn child, but we now have two
other children, and we have to at some point in their lives --
they are both very young, but we have to explain to them what
happened to their brother and why; and at this point, we don't
have any explanation.
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
Kevin Gottshall - Direct
THE COURT: I'll sustain as to that part of it.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Gottshall, can you describe on your wife's behalf the
impact of your son's death.
A. Well, it's -- it's roughly the same, I think, as what I've
experienced. We -- again, she has nightmares. We can't stand
to drive by the highway and see private rental trucks of any
kind. We're both afraid of heights now. We never were. The
sense of security, I guess, that -- that you have if you do
everything that you can to try to take care of -- of your
family, you're not -- it's not necessarily going to work.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, Mr. Gottshall.
THE COURT: Do you have any questions?
MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please. Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor. We'll call
Ms. Jannie Coverdale.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Jannie Coverdale affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Jannie M. Coverdale, C-O-V-E-R-D-A-L-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. Coverdale.
A. Good morning.
Q. Are you here today to testify about your two grandsons?
A. Yes.
Q. What were their names?
A. Aaron. Aaron was five and a half. Elijah was two and a
half.
Q. Is that how old they were when they died in the Murrah
Building?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1047E.
MS. WILKINSON: And, your Honor, we would offer this
into evidence.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: It's received. May be shown.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. I believe this is 1047D, but that's okay. Can you tell the
jury --
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, just to make the record
clear, this is 1047D.
THE COURT: Yes. Thank you.
Jannie Coverdale - Direct
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mrs. Coverdale, who is this?
A. This is Elijah.
Q. He was two-and-a-half years old at the time of his death?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury a little bit about him, what kind of
person he was?
A. Elijah was my baby. Elijah came to live with me when he
was three months old. He was my shadow. He slept with me
every night. I got my hugs and kisses from Elijah.
Q. And did Elijah have quite a personality?
A. Elijah had a mind of his own.
Q. Did he like to get in trouble?
A. He stayed in trouble, and he really didn't mind it.
Q. What kind of things did he do?
A. I remember once, I had gotten -- well, it was right before
Easter of '95, Aaron and I were going shopping, so I had gotten
Aaron and Elijah dressed. And all of a sudden, I heard,
"Granny, come here."
And I ran in the kitchen, and he said, "I made a
mess."
He had looked in the refrigerator, pulled out a bowl
of corn, and spilled it all down the front of him.
And another time, his last Christmas, we did a
Christmas tree. And it was a very ugly Christmas tree, but the
Jannie Coverdale - Direct
kids thought it was pretty. Aaron and I were making the bed,
and I heard, "Hurry, Granny, hurry, Granny." And I ran out in
the living room. Elijah was lying on the floor on his back.
The Christmas tree was on top of him. And I was asking him
what happened. "I don't know." He was just a typical
two-year-old child.
Q. Now, you've talked about his brother, Aaron; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's take a look at 1047C.
MS. WILKINSON: Which we offer into evidence, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be displayed.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Is this Aaron?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell the jury about Aaron.
A. Aaron was my protector. Aaron was a very good little boy.
I got hugs from him. I didn't get kisses. He was too big to
kiss, so I got my hugs from Aaron. Aaron would get up in the
morning, get dressed, make his bed. Of course, the sheet would
be dragging the floor, but he thought the bed was made. Every
morning, he would make sure he got my keys, my cigarettes, and
my glasses and put them in my purse because I was always
forgetting them. He tried to take care of Elijah, but that was
Jannie Coverdale - Direct
a lost cause because Elijah didn't listen. When Aaron got to
be a big boy, he was going to buy me a house with a big
playground and he was going to buy me a blue car and he was
going to buy his daddy a skateboard. I never did figure out
why his daddy had to have a skateboard.
Q. Mrs. Coverdale, can we talk a little bit about how you got
custody of these boys. They are your grandsons; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell the jury how many children you have.
A. I have four sons. Aaron and Elijah are my third son's
kids. And my third son and his wife were having problems, so I
got custody of Aaron and Elijah.
Q. Can you tell the jury what Elijah's condition was when he
was born?
A. Elijah tested positive for cocaine when he was born. And
at first, I had a hard time getting help for him because I
didn't know how bad it was, and I'd take him to the doctor and
I'd tell them that Elijah tested positive for cocaine and they
would say, "Oh, okay," and that was it.
So finally, I asked the doctor, "Well, why don't
somebody do something?"
And he said, "Well, frankly, we don't know very much
about it."
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, objection.
THE COURT: Objection is overruled.
Jannie Coverdale - Direct
I believe you completed your answer, did you?
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mrs. Coverdale, you first obtained custody of Elijah when
he was how old?
A. Three months old.
Q. How old was Aaron?
A. Three years old.
Q. And could you tell us just briefly how they responded to
being in your care and custody and away from their parents.
A. They were happy.
Q. Why was that?
A. Because they knew I loved them and they knew they were
going to be taken care of.
Q. And can you just tell the jury briefly what your routine
was with those boys once you had custody of them.
A. I worked seven days a week, so I'd get up in the mornings
and get them dressed. I lived about a half block from the
day-care center, from the federal building.
Q. Tell the jury the name of the building in which you lived.
A. The Regency Towers. And we'd walk up the street to the
federal building. I'd leave them at the day-care center. I
worked in the county assessor's office which was about two
blocks from the federal building. Then I'd go in to work. And
this happened every day. On weekends, a friend of mine took
Jannie Coverdale - Direct
care of them while I worked.
Q. Now, were you divorced at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were the sole person responsible for the care of
Aaron and Elijah?
A. Yes.
Q. What were you doing at the time of the bombing in Oklahoma
City? Where were you working?
A. At the county assessor's office, which was two blocks from
the federal building.
Q. And you took Elijah and Aaron to the day-care center that
day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall how long it took before you found out what
happened to your grandsons?
A. I found out late that Saturday evening.
Q. How did you find out?
A. A Medical Examiner's Office -- we were at First Christian
Church, and the Medical Examiner's Office called us upstairs
and told us that they had identified their bodies.
Q. Both of them?
A. Both of them.
Q. Were you able to get back into your apartment at the
Regency Tower after the bombing in Oklahoma City?
A. No.
Jannie Coverdale - Direct
Q. Why was that?
A. Because the building was damaged so bad, it took them six
months to repair it so we could move back in.
Q. So were you able to assist the Medical Examiner in any way
by providing pictures or anything like that of Aaron and
Elijah?
A. No. No.
Q. Were you able to obtain fingerprints of them?
A. Not at my house. They had to go to a friend's house and
take fingerprints.
Q. Can you tell the jury in your own words what the impact has
been on you in losing both of your grandsons?
A. Aaron and Elijah were my life. I lived for them. I had
raised my four sons, and I felt that since I was so young when
I had them, I had made a lot of mistakes. So when I got Aaron
and Elijah, it was like I had a second chance. I had learned
from those mistakes I made raising my children, so I knew I
could do a much better job raising them. My only concern with
raising Aaron and Elijah was that maybe I wouldn't live until
they got grown, so I had talked to my second son and told him
that if anything happened to me, I wanted him to take Aaron and
Elijah, and we were in the process of getting that paperwork
done. I never thought that I would outlive them. Grandparents
just don't do that.
So since they died, I don't have a life. There's not
Jannie Coverdale - Direct
a day goes by that I don't think about them, don't hear that
explosion, don't wish I could reach into heaven and bring them
back. That's it. They were my life.
Q. Mrs. Coverdale, because you took your grandsons to the
day-care center every day, have you dealt with some guilt about
your own responsibility?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell the jury about that.
A. I keep thinking if I had stayed home that morning, if I
hadn't put them in that day-care center, if I hadn't continued
working, they would still be alive. And I can't get rid of the
ifs. If I had just listened to that inner voice that morning
that said "don't go to work," I would have stayed home and they
would be alive.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you very much, Mrs. Coverdale.
MR. TIGAR: No questions.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're now
excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'll call Mr. Fred Anderson.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Frederick Anderson affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Frederick Allen Anderson,
A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Anderson.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you live?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. I drive truck.
Q. Who do you drive truck for?
A. Great Plains Bottling Company.
Q. And how long have you been a truck driver?
A. For Great Plains, or how long have I drove truck?
Q. How long have you driven truck?
A. 23 years.
Q. Did your wife die as a result of the bombing in Oklahoma
City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At the time of the bombing, did your wife work in the
Frederick Anderson - Direct
Murrah Building?
A. No, sir.
Q. So how is it that she came to be a victim of the bombing?
A. Me and my wife were sitting at home when the bomb went off.
We heard about it on the TV. We got dressed and went down to
see what assistance we could help with.
Q. Was your wife a nurse who went to the assistance of the
people --
A. Yes.
Q. -- trapped inside the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. Why don't you take a look at Government Exhibit 1396.
MR. GOELMAN: Which we offer at this time, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any objection to it?
MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry. I was looking at something
else.
THE COURT: 1396.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Do you see that on your screen, Mr. Anderson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who is that?
A. That's my wife.
Frederick Anderson - Direct
Q. And how long before her death was this picture taken?
A. About 18 months.
Q. How long had you and Rebecca been married before April 19,
1995?
A. Nine months.
Q. And did you have any children who lived with you?
A. Rebecca's children, yes.
Q. How many kids did Rebecca have?
A. Four.
Q. From previous marriages?
A. Yes.
Q. How old were the children?
A. Gabe was 15; Hillary, 13; Rachel was 11; Britton was 9.
Q. I want to talk about April 19th. Were you working that
day?
A. No, sir.
Q. What were your plans for April 19th, 1995?
A. When we heard about the bomb going off, we were sitting in
our living room at that time, making our plans for the day. We
had -- I always had the same days off, but she did -- her days
off rotated; and so whenever we had the days off together, we
would sit down and plan out our day so we could spend our day
together. And we were sitting in the living room that morning,
making our plans to do that.
Q. Okay. About how far did you live from where the Murrah
Frederick Anderson - Direct
Building stood?
A. About 9 -- 9 to 10 miles.
Q. And what happened at 9:02 that morning? What did you --
what did you experience?
A. Oh, okay. At -- at that time, we first heard a -- a loud
booming-type noise, kind of a rumble. And then we felt the
house shake a little bit. And we live in basically almost in
the fly pattern of Tinker Air Force Base out there. And every
now and then, one of the planes will take off from out there
and they will go supersonic and, you know, it'll happen every
now and then. And we had discussed that that was possibly what
had happened. And then we talked about it, said, no, it didn't
sound quite right. It was a different rumble.
Q. And did you later learn that it was not, in fact, a sonic
boom?
A. Right.
Q. How did you learn that?
A. The TV.
Q. And what did you learn from the television?
A. Well, first, when they first came on the TV, it was just
that there was an explosion downtown and they showed the
general vicinity, not the exact location. They just had the
general vicinity. And I had thought it was -- there was some
chemical company -- warehouses down there, and I thought that
maybe one of them had blown up at first. And then we went on
Frederick Anderson - Direct
talking about what we were doing for the day, and I went back
to the bedroom to get dressed, and she had come running back in
the bedroom and started throwing clothes on. And, you know, I
asked her what her big hurry was, and she said, "Well, they
blew up a building downtown. There's a lot of people hurt, and
we need to get down there."
Q. Did Rebecca explain why she needed to get down to where the
building had blown up?
A. I'm not sure if she exactly said why or not, but I knew
why, you know. She said there was people down there hurting,
and we needed to get down there and see what we could do to
help them.
Q. Did you yourself at the time have any emergency medical
training that you thought you could use to help the people at
the Murrah Building?
A. I was a -- first-aid-certified and CPR-certified.
Q. So when Rebecca came in and said that you had to hurry down
to the Murrah Building, what was your reaction?
A. I had no problem with it.
Q. How long after she came in did you leave the house?
A. Probably within five minutes.
Q. And where did you go?
A. We drove in on Interstate 40 and up to 235 and got off on
the Harrison/6th Street exit. We got to where Harrison and 6th
Street intersect, and they had it blocked off at that time.
Frederick Anderson - Direct
And at that time, there was some medical personnel coming in
from over at the hospital area, and we had talked about it and
she got out there and proceeded to go in with them while I
tried to go find a place to park.
Q. When you say medical personnel coming from the hospital, do
you know what hospital they were coming from?
A. I have no idea, no. There was like three or four hospitals
over in that area and . . .
Q. And Rebecca got out and joined them?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do at that point?
A. I proceeded going where they directed me, away from the
street they directed me on. And I think I went about two,
two-and-a-half blocks, and I found a parking lot down there and
that I parked in, and then I went in from a different direction
into the building -- building area.
Q. What did you intend to do at that time?
A. Well, I was going to see what I could do to assist; but
when I got over there, the -- the Oklahoma City Police
Department and Sheriff's Department had already started setting
up perimeters and stuff. And I did not bring any ID as far as
my medical, what I knew, with me, and so they would not allow
me in.
Q. What did you do when you weren't able to approach the
building?
Frederick Anderson - Direct
A. At the time I talked to the police officer, I had went --
he wouldn't let me in and I says -- he says, "We're trying to
basically get a control on how many people were there and what
was going on."
And I said -- I asked him if they had a command post
set up to where I could go, you know, and volunteer and let
them tell me what they would like me to do. He told me that he
thought they had one around the corner down on 6th, and so I
went walking down there. And before I got to where he told me
it was at, they had the second bomb scare and they were
evacuating everybody back.
Q. What did you do at that time?
A. At that time, I walked around the perimeter that they moved
everybody back to, trying to find my wife. I couldn't find
her, so I had called where I worked because I figured they
would be putting something together. They have a snack
division there that they deliver to schools and stuff, and I
knew they would be putting some together to come down with.
And I called them up. They said yes, they needed some drivers
to come down and help with it. So I went to my plant to help
assist with that.
Q. When you say "putting something together," what exactly do
you mean?
A. Our -- our snack vans. They were putting snacks, you know,
chips, soda pop, stuff that they could come down and give to
Frederick Anderson - Direct
people, you know, to --
Q. And did you go to the place where you worked?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How long were you there?
A. I was there probably 5 minutes, 10 minutes.
Q. Did you get a phone call there?
A. No. I got a page from the University Hospital, and I
returned the call.
Q. When you returned the call, did someone from the hospital
tell you that your wife had been involved in the bombing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was your response?
A. I commented to them that they had probably called the wrong
person because my wife wasn't there at the time of the bombing.
And he went on to explain, you know, that he had gotten the
pager number from her.
And I said, well -- because he was trying to find out
what was wrong with her, too. And they were still evaluating
what was wrong with her at that time. And I told him it wasn't
because of the percussion of the bombing because she wasn't
there.
And he says, "Well, we're doing some observation on
her right now."
And I -- I just asked where it was at, and then I went
down there to the hospital.
Frederick Anderson - Direct
Q. When Rebecca got out of the car when the two of you arrived
near the scene, was she wearing a nurse's uniform?
A. No, sir.
Q. What was she wearing?
A. She was wearing blue jeans and a -- a white sweatshirt with
some kind of nautical emblem on the front.
Q. Did she have nurse -- a nurse's ID with her?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why don't you take a look at Government Exhibit 1397.
MR. GOELMAN: Which we offer at this time.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's received and may be
shown.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you see that picture, sir? And is that a picture of
your wife?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that what she was wearing on the day of the bombing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What happened when you got to the hospital?
A. When I got to the hospital, they had her in the -- already
had her in a room and she was unconscious. The doctor that was
overseeing her care at that time took me into an examining room
and showed me the CAT scans that they had taken of her previous
to moving her to that room.
Frederick Anderson - Direct
Q. When was Rebecca officially declared dead, Mr. Anderson?
A. Sunday morning, 8:35.
Q. Can you tell us a little bit about what kind of person your
wife was.
A. She was a caring person. She -- she -- she -- she was a
doer. She liked doing for people. She liked to take care of
people. She was a geriatric nurse. She just -- she loved to
do for people that couldn't do for themselves. That's -- she
took a lot of pride in that.
Q. Did Rebecca continue doing for people even after her death?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you --
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, the objection is sustained.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Had you and Rebecca both been married previously?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And can you tell us a little bit about the relationship
that the two of you had.
A. Well, it -- mine and Rebecca's relationship kind of started
a little strange because my best friend and her best friend
were married and they kept trying to -- trying to set us up,
and Rebecca was going through a divorce and she didn't want to
date anybody at that time. And my best friend had told me
about her and told me she had four kids, so I didn't want to
Frederick Anderson - Direct
date anybody with four kids. And so they tried probably for
about six months to set us up. And then -- I don't know -- one
night, Rebecca called my house and we got to talking. And we
talked on the phone that night probably six hours until I had
to go to work. So -- and we talked the next two nights quite a
long time on the phone and went out on her birthday the next --
that weekend. And everything -- everything just clicked
together. Everything was just -- it just clicked.
Q. You told us that at the time of the bombing, you and
Rebecca lived together with her four children?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where are those children living now?
A. The two youngest children are living with their father in
the same house. I give him the house back. And the oldest
boy, he's 18. He's off to school, living on his own now. And
Hillary is living with her grandparents.
Q. How has Rebecca's death impacted your life?
A. It's -- it's impacted everything about it. It's just -- I
have a -- I just don't deal with anything anymore. It's almost
like why bother with it, you know. It's -- I go through doing
my job because I have to work because I've got to pay bills,
and that's about it. My day consists of I go to work at 7:00
in the evening. I get off at 4 in the morning. I go home. I
take my dog for a walk. I go back in, watch a couple hours of
TV, go to sleep, get up in the afternoon, go outside with my
Frederick Anderson - Direct
dog for a little bit, get ready to go to work. That's pretty
much what I do.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Mr. Anderson. I have nothing
further.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You're excused. You may step down.
Next.
MR. MACKEY: Glen Westberry.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Glen Westberry affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Glen Westberry, W-E-S-T-B-E-R-R-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Westberry.
A. Good morning.
Q. How are you today?
A. I'm pretty good.
Q. Can you tell the jury how old you are.
Glen Westberry - Direct
A. 32.
Q. Where do you live?
A. Orlando, Florida.
Q. And can you tell us a little bit about your family, where
you grew up.
A. I grew up all over. With my dad working for Defense
Investigative Service, we got to move all around the country.
Q. Tell the jury who your father is.
A. Robert Westberry.
Q. And was he killed in the Murrah Building on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Before that, where was he employed?
A. Before he was with them, he was with Naval Intelligence
Service in Vietnam. And before that, he was a state trooper in
Florida.
Q. Do you recall when he joined the Defense Investigative
Service?
A. I believe he was a charter member in 1972.
Q. And at the time of the bombing, what was his assignment?
A. He was the special agent in charge of the office in
Oklahoma City.
Q. Now, had you ever seen his office in the Murrah Building?
A. Yeah. Many times.
Q. Was there a time when you and your family lived in
Oklahoma?
Glen Westberry - Direct
A. Yes. For about a -- a year. Me and my wife at the time
and son lived in Stillwater. I was a police officer there.
Q. What's your son's name?
A. David.
Q. How old is David now?
A. He's seven.
Q. And do you recall what year it was when you lived in
Oklahoma?
A. I think it was '92 to '93.
Q. At that time, your father and mother were also living
there?
A. Yes. That's --
Q. What's your mother's name?
A. Tillie Westberry.
Q. And what kind of relationship did your son, David, have
with your father?
A. I think out of all the grandkids, he was probably one of
the most special because I'm an only son. So he was like the
one that was going to carry on the family name. And so they
had some -- being able to live out there and the rest of my
family living on the East Coast, they got to spend a lot more
time together. And so they just formed a special bond because
of the amount of time we got to live with them. Even before
Oklahoma, when he was stationed in south Florida and the time
we got to live with them there, we were just minutes away from
Glen Westberry - Direct
them. So they got to take care of him a lot when he was
little.
Q. How does David refer to his grandfather?
A. As "Papa."
Q. Now, after you left Oklahoma, did your parents remain
there?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Where did you move to?
A. I moved back to Orlando.
Q. And do you recall seeing your father in December of 1994?
A. Yeah. They always during the -- that time of the year,
they always came out and visited the kids.
Q. And do you recall David's reaction to seeing his Papa that
time?
A. Yeah. That was in December of '94, so that was the last
time they got to come visit. And they came to the door, and my
son was real excited about them coming. And he was so excited,
he couldn't open the door so he made me open it for him. So I
opened the door, and my mom was the first one there and my dad
was little bit behind her and forget that my mom was there. He
just shot by her and went right in my dad's arms.
Q. Now, you said that was the last time you saw your father
alive; is that right?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you recall having some conversations with your father
Glen Westberry - Direct
about your son and about your family?
A. Yeah. That time of the year, it -- when he came through,
he had already been to see my sisters, and I think he was --
was going through a time with us kids where he was kind of
reflecting on what it was like for him to be our dad and what
it was like growing up with him. And so we got to sit down and
talk for a couple hours about that and -- and to a point to
where we -- we got to a point about where we talked about what
we needed to do in our lives to make sure we were setting a
good example and being the right leaders for our son, so he had
something good to follow.
Q. Had your father ever discussed that type of thing with you
before?
A. Never.
Q. What type of father was your dad?
A. He was very direct, a very matter of fact kind of guy, and
you always knew what he was thinking. But he was always -- he
always was there for us, always took care of you, always knew
if there was a problem, that he had the right answer for you.
Q. Did you rely on him for advice?
A. A lot, especially once I got older and realized that --
the wisdom that he had.
Q. Now, on April 19th, did you hear about the bombing?
A. My mom called me. I was working in Orlando, and she called
me.
Glen Westberry - Direct
Q. Did you realize at that time that it was your father's
building that had been bombed?
A. At first, we weren't sure if it was his building or not.
Q. Did you decide to travel to Oklahoma City to assist your
mother?
A. Yeah. I -- I called out to try and get a hold of him, and
I couldn't get a hold of the office where he was, so I decided
to fly out that night.
Q. Now, do you have other brothers and sisters?
A. I had three older sisters.
Q. And did they come to Oklahoma City at some point?
A. Two of the three did.
Q. And do they have children?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. So your father had several grandchildren?
A. I think there's -- I would -- three, four, five, six --
about eight.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1468.
MS. WILKINSON: Which we offer into evidence.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Westberry, can you tell the jury who's depicted in
Government's Exhibit 1468.
Glen Westberry - Direct
A. That's my dad and my nephew Joshua.
Q. One of his grandsons?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after April 19th, on April 20th, did you know at that
time what had happened to your father?
A. On the 20th, no, we didn't know.
Q. Did your son, David, come to Oklahoma City at some point?
A. Yeah, he came to Oklahoma City on -- it happened on a
Wednesday, and he came out on a Friday morning.
Q. Do you recall receiving news of the identification of your
father on Saturday?
A. Yes. About three of the agents from DIS came out to the
house and told us that they had made a positive ID.
Q. Who was it that had to inform David what had happened to
his grandpa?
A. It was me and his mom.
Q. What happened?
A. When they first came in, they told -- they told everyone,
and we had been trying to keep him somewhat away from it,
watching a lot on TV, so -- he knew that something was going on
in the house, because my mom was pretty upset and my sisters.
So we took him upstairs and we sat down and talked with him and
told him what had happened. And he just started crying
uncontrollably, just sobbing. And there wasn't anything you
could do to console him.
Glen Westberry - Direct
Q. Did he have a request?
A. He had been to the building before to see my dad's office
and visit him there since we had lived there. And he -- he had
in his mind since he had seen it, he wanted to go see the
building to see what had happened.
Q. What did he say to you?
A. He asked us to go down there because he wanted to know for
sure that -- that he wasn't just at work, so we took him down
to see the building the next day.
Q. How old was David when he made that request to you?
A. He was about four and a half.
Q. And did you take him down to the building on Sunday?
A. On Sunday, we took him down to the building.
Q. What did he say?
A. He -- he didn't have a lot of reaction as far as verbally.
He just -- I think it just let him know that he wasn't there
because he could see that his office was gone, so he knew that
his Papa wasn't at work anymore.
Q. Now, after taking care of things in Oklahoma City, did you
return to Florida?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you try to have David return to school?
A. Yes. We took him back to school.
Q. Did you notice an impact upon David with the loss of his
grandfather?
Glen Westberry - Direct
A. He was -- at first, he was real scared to go back to school
for the first couple of weeks. He cried every morning because
he was afraid. He knew that there was a day care from watching
on TV and stuff. He knew that there was a day care in the
building, and so he was afraid the same thing was going to
happen at his school.
Q. What did you tell him?
A. We told him that what had happened was because they wanted
to hurt the government, the people in the building, and --
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. Instruct the jury will
disregard that.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did you explain to him that his school would not be bombed?
A. Right. We told him that -- that his school was a school on
its own and that that wasn't the intention.
Q. Okay. Did you notice other problems with David at school?
MR. TIGAR: Ask that the last answer be stricken,
also, your Honor.
THE COURT: Denied.
MR. TIGAR: About the intention.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Westberry, tell the jury what happened to David at
school, what reaction he had.
Glen Westberry - Direct
A. At school, he -- he became a little bit aggressive, and he
also had a time where he'd sit and put his hands over his ears
and -- because he couldn't take the noise. He wanted it quiet,
and so he got real withdrawn and -- and just needed -- needed
to be quiet. And then also, every morning that we took him, it
was a time where he just cried from being scared.
Q. Did you and his mother determine that he needed counseling?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he do? Or what did you do to assist him in
that area?
A. We took -- we took him to see a counselor and so he could
deal with some of the feelings that was going on inside him.
We didn't want him having to grow up with that and having that
not dealt with, and part of the -- the therapy that he went
through was reconstructing the building with blocks of his own.
Q. Did his therapist ask him after he built the building with
blocks to take the building down?
A. Yes. She thought it would be a way of him understanding a
little bit more what happened and letting his feelings out to
do that. And for a very long time, he wouldn't do it. He
wouldn't allow anything to happen to the building.
Q. Did he get better?
A. He did get better. It took probably about eight to ten
months before he had actually went there and allowed the
building to be broken. And during that time, it helped because
Glen Westberry - Direct
he would talk about what it was like to miss his Papa, and we
came up with different ways that he could still talk to -- you
know, and communicate with his Papa.
Q. How did he communicate with his Papa?
A. What we would do is --
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did your son, David, ever express a desire to die,
Mr. Westberry?
A. On a number of occasions with his mom, he would -- they
would be driving in the car and he would ask her when there was
a red light if she would run the red light, and she asked him
why because it would hurt other people and it could hurt them.
And if he did that -- if she did that. And he said that --
that he knew that if they did that, that they could die and go
to heaven to be with Papa because he missed him and wanted to
be with him and wanted to play with him some more.
Q. Could you tell the jury the impact that the death of your
father has had on you, your family, and your son?
A. For quite a while, with my son, he would -- even playing
with the toys in the bathtub and different things, he would --
he would -- everything had to do with my dad. And he would
wake up at night with nightmares and -- and dreams. For
myself, it was -- it was losing a man that -- that I relied on
Glen Westberry - Direct
for wisdom and for encouragement. And our relationship had
changed to the point over the last couple years to -- to where
he was more of a friend as well as a dad and somebody that
would give direction and feedback. And now times that you
would take for granted, that you could just pick up a phone and
write a letter and talk to him, it's just not there. So it's
a -- it's just a sense of loss. It's a sense of being on your
own.
Q. And can you tell the jury the impact the loss of your
father has had on your mother.
A. I know for her -- they were married for, I think, about 36
years. And for her, it's a sense of losing her companion and
her friend. Since all the kids had left, when they moved out
to Oklahoma, they started spending -- doing things just for
themselves and going places and doing things when -- that they
hadn't been able to do, raising four kids. And I know for her,
when she sees other couples like this, it's a tough time for
her. It's really hard for her to see these things, knowing
that she's never going to be able to have that again with my
dad.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Westberry.
We have no further questions, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Members of the jury, let me just explain. I sustained
an objection to what Mr. Westberry was getting into and was
talking about talking to his son about why. And of course, he
was making assumptions and -- with respect to what he thought
an answer should be, and that's why I sustained the objection
to it, because of his assumptions as to what happened and why.
Of course, we can't consider such testimony here.
Next witness.
MR. MACKEY: We'll call Matt Lotspeich.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Matt Lotspeich affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Matt Lotspeich, L-O-T-S-P-E-I-C-H.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning. How are you employed?
A. I'm an FBI agent.
Q. And when did you join the FBI?
A. May of 1989.
Q. Are you married?
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have children?
A. I have two little girls.
Q. And how old are you?
A. Two-and-a-half and five-and-a-half.
Q. How old are you?
A. I'm sorry. 34.
Q. All right. Where are you currently assigned with the FBI?
A. I'm currently assigned at Quantico, Virginia, at the FBI
Academy.
Q. In April of 1995, where were you assigned?
A. The Oklahoma City division of the FBI.
Q. Do you recall the morning of April 19th?
A. Very well.
Q. Tell the jury where you were and what happened.
A. I was in the FBI office, which is approximately 4 to 5
miles from the Federal Center. I'm at my desk; and of course,
we hear the bomb go off and we weren't sure what it is. I
thought it was a sonic boom. Everything is rattling.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may the witness be reminded
that "tell the jury" doesn't really mean to tell the jury?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Just talk -- just talk to me, Agent Lotspeich, if you
would. Just direct your comments to me. Again -- sorry to
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
interrupt you -- go back to where you were, what you were doing
on the morning of the 19th.
A. I'm at the office when the bomb goes off, and I think it's
a sonic boom. My supervisor's office opens up to downtown.
And you could see smoke coming up from downtown. His radio was
on. And they begin talking about a bomb has gone off downtown,
and part of the federal building is missing.
Q. What did you do?
A. About that time, pretty much just flabbergasted. Over the
intercom, we receive a page for the S.W.A.T. team to
immediately get downtown. And at that point, we get out of the
office as fast as we can go and head downtown.
Q. Were you a member of that team?
A. Yes.
Q. And about how long was it before you arrived in downtown
Oklahoma City?
A. From the time of the blast, approximately 15 minutes. We
got downtown.
Q. Let me show you what has already been received in evidence
as Exhibit 973. Is this a scene that you saw on the morning of
April 19th?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And when you arrived, where did you park?
A. I parked at the post office, which is half a block or a
full block west of the federal building.
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
Q. In relationship to this photograph, where is it that you
parked?
A. The tower that you see, I'm in between the smaller building
and in between the apartment tower. I'm on the other side of
the smaller building.
Q. After you parked your car, what did you do?
A. We began running towards the building. We -- we did not
know if there was a threat, if someone was still down there
attacking some people. We were unsure what was going on. And
we were there to just assist any way we can or could and help
out.
Q. Who was with you?
A. Agent Terry O'Brien was with me.
Q. He's another agent of the FBI in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you do and Agent O'Brien do?
A. We ran to the front of the building, where we saw another
agent, Agent Chuck Choney, who is a S.W.A.T. team leader. He
was on approximately the northeast corner of what was left of
the building. And we got to that point and we began talking to
him.
Q. All right. After you talked to Agent Choney, what did
you -- what was the course of action?
A. Agent Choney said, "Matt, why don't you and Darrell
Edwards, who's an ATF agent -- why don't you go to the rear of
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
the building and see if you could help out.
Q. The rear of the building is the south side?
A. The south side of the building, yes.
Q. Is that what you did?
A. Yes.
Q. After you got to the south side, the plaza area, what did
you do?
A. There was an Oklahoma highway patrolman standing at the --
what was left of the entrance, and he was screaming for some
rope. And I just took off running to look for a fire truck to
try to get some rope. And there was a fire -- fire truck very
close and a fireman on top of it and asked for some rope, and
he threw me a bag. And I ran back to the front of the -- to
the rear of the building, to that entrance.
Q. And what did you do with the rope?
A. The highway patrolman said they need it inside; and at that
point, I started -- entered the building. And you couldn't
walk in the building. It was -- it was just -- there was
nothing there. It was just concrete and wires and cables and
pipes and dust and dirt, and there was -- you could hear people
hollering and -- and I kept going just towards the building.
And I could hear a fireman. You couldn't quite see. And I'll
describe where he was in a moment. You couldn't quite see him,
but I could hear him.
So I took the rope and I just began crawling under and
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
over things that didn't -- I couldn't see very well -- just to
get to where he was. And I assumed that's who needed the rope.
I really didn't know. When I got into the building maybe 20,
30 yards, I could see him. And what had happened, the -- the
concrete ceiling had broken and was down at an angle, and the
floor was down at an angle. And where they came together is as
far as you could see. I called it a hole. It was a -- it was
a -- it was a hole, but it's where the two concrete huge slabs
had came together.
Q. This is inside the building?
A. This is inside the building. And before I crawled down
into that hole, there was -- the ceiling had broken away. And
there was a refrigerator hanging up there maybe two or three
stories above us, and it -- it was -- I was scared. I didn't
know if -- what the refrigerator was going to do, if it was
going to fall or whatnot.
Q. Was there anything, any floors, any ceilings between you
and that refrigerator?
A. No. No. There was -- there was nothing there.
Q. All right. Did you keep on going?
A. I crawled down in the -- the hole, and you could hear --
the firemen told me someone was in there, and you could hear
them. You couldn't see anything. He said there's somebody in
there. And we just began digging with our hands and -- and
just pulling out rubble and anything we could just to try to
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
make some headway because we could -- we could hear a voice, a
cry, a murmur. And at that time, I thought it was a little
girl. And I didn't know what it was. So we -- we just kept
digging. And --
Q. Did you eventually get to this person?
A. We -- we got to the point where we got her shoulder
exposed. And she could -- I think her hand came out. And --
Q. Was she able to tell you her name?
A. Yeah. We -- we had conversation. She was very scared.
And it was a -- it was a horrible position. She -- I -- I
can't imagine being in that position that she was in. She was
pinched in between two, you know -- two huge slabs of concrete
and covered with metal and debris and pipes and -- and you
couldn't see in there. It was just so dusty and -- and I was
terrified for her. I thought a shift in the building would
crush her, and we were -- wanted to get her out as quickly as
possible.
She really only -- there was such a small area, you
couldn't dig really two people at once. You had to kind of
take turns. And once we got her arm out, she wanted to hold
your hand. She wanted to touch somebody, but you couldn't.
You wanted to work with both your hands. So she grabbed onto
my boot, I remember, and she called me "the boot man." It was
Amy Petty who was pinned in there.
Q. She told you her name?
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
A. She told me her name.
Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit No. 970 for
identification. Does this photograph depict the location where
Amy Petty was trapped?
A. It does.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Government would offer Exhibit
970.
MR. TIGAR: May I voir dire briefly?
THE COURT: You may, yes.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good morning, Agent. I'm Michael Tigar.
The photograph that you're looking at there, sir: Do
you know when that was -- Is Ms. Petty depicted in that
photograph?
A. No.
Q. This was taken at some time after she was removed?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And do you know when it was taken, sir?
A. No.
Q. Does it -- but how do you recognize -- I know the jury
can't see it. How do you recognize it as the place where you
were working that day?
A. I spent approximately four hours in that hole. And this
may sound strange, but I know it very well.
Matt Lotspeich - Voir Dire
Q. Okay.
A. I know --
Q. So you're --
A. I know how those concrete pieces come together, and -- I
know it well.
MR. TIGAR: You do. All right. Thank you, sir.
No objection.
THE COURT: Received. May be displayed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, if you would, you've got a pen there on your desk,
Agent. And if you'll put it under the table, you can draw
actually right on the screen that's below your desk. And if
you would draw the location of where Amy Petty was in this
photograph.
Now, was she -- was she in a chair? Was she -- in
what way was she trapped in this space?
A. She was -- she was sideways. Her head was facing as the
opening increases. She was in a chair, and she was hunched
over. And her right side of her body was exposed to us. Only
her upper torso.
Q. You say you spent about four hours with her.
A. Yes.
Q. Who else was with you?
A. There was a fireman that was in the hole. And a paramedic
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
worker was there off and on.
Q. As you were attempting to get Amy Petty out of this hole,
did you hear other voices in the building?
A. You could -- you could hear -- you could hear other people,
other noises. Not screams, but murmurs and cries.
Q. What happened to those murmurs and cries?
A. We -- we would stop digging and we would listen and we --
to the right of the picture was where we were hearing those
noises and -- and we would listen and -- and we -- we would try
to move some of the blocks that were there and we -- we
couldn't. And it would quit after a while. You wouldn't hear
anything. And we would go back digging.
Q. Did there come a time that morning when you left Amy Petty?
A. Yes. One of the firemen came over to our position and said
there's another bomb in here. We need to evacuate immediately.
Q. What did you say?
A. We -- we left eventually.
Q. Did you tell Amy Petty what you were doing?
A. We told her -- yes. We -- we told her that we had to leave
for a short time and we would -- we would come back. We
wouldn't leave her. We wouldn't do that.
Q. What did she say?
A. She -- she just cried. She was very upset.
Q. How long were you outside the building?
A. Maybe 15, 20 minutes. 10 minutes.
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
Q. And did you come back in the building?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go right back to where she was?
A. Yes. There was some -- I found some other -- another FBI
agent, Walt Lamar, and some Oklahoma City Police Department
officers that were nearby and told them, "Hey, we've got
somebody alive in there; we've got to get back in there." And
I led them to the spot, and we took up digging again.
Q. Was Amy Petty rescued from the building that day?
A. Yes. Yes, she was.
Q. And did you see her the following day?
A. Yes, I went to the hospital the following day and checked
on her.
MR. RYAN: Thank you. That's all I have, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No questions.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
excused. Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Call Mr. Chris Cregan.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Chris Cregan affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
Matt Lotspeich - Direct
THE WITNESS: Chris Cregan, C-R-E-G-A-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Cregan, where do you live?
A. I live in Louisville, Colorado.
Q. And how long have you lived in Colorado?
A. I've been here now for six months.
Q. And before that, where did you reside?
A. In Moore, Oklahoma.
Q. Is that near Oklahoma City?
A. It's just on the outskirts of Oklahoma City.
Q. How long did you live in Oklahoma?
A. 37 years of my life.
Q. And how old are you?
A. 37.
Q. All right. I want to ask you a few questions about
yourself and also about your mother, Kathy Cregan. Kathy was a
victim of the Oklahoma City bombing, was she?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. All right. Mr. Cregan, are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And what's your wife's name?
A. Sondra Cregan.
Chris Cregan - Direct
Q. All right. And tell the jury, please -- direct your
answers to me -- the family unit that you came from, your
mother and father and siblings.
A. I have -- my father passed away 11 years ago, and I have
two older brothers. And I have four nieces and two nephews.
Q. All right. When you graduated from high school,
Mr. Cregan, did you go off to the service?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And how many years did you serve in the Air Force?
A. Four years.
Q. And after that time, what have you done?
A. I've worked for Seagate in the computer industry.
Q. Is that the business you're employed by currently?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time of your mother's death, who was she employed
by?
A. Social Security.
Q. And how long had your mother worked for the Social Security
Administration?
A. 14 years.
Q. Tell the jury -- jurors, please, Mr. Cregan, what jobs she
had and what responsibilities she carried out on behalf of
Social Security.
A. She was a service rep. She handled the claims and kind of
took care of -- troubleshot the claims that were being made.
Chris Cregan - Direct
Q. And did she tell you what she thought about the job that
she did for Social Security?
A. She loved her job.
Q. All right. Do you know where her office was located?
A. It was on the 1st floor of the Murrah Building.
Q. And do you know where on the 1st floor it precisely was in
April -- April 19th of 1995?
A. Yes. She was -- it was the east side of the building, I
believe.
Q. How close was it, Mr. Cregan, to the glass walls?
A. She was very close. She was like probably 4 feet away from
the glass walls -- her desk was.
Q. How long had her work station been at that spot before the
bombing?
A. For about three -- I think about three months.
Q. Mr. Cregan, how old was your mother when she died?
A. She was 61.
Q. Would you tell the members of the jury when you last spoke
to your mother.
A. Easter Sunday.
Q. All right. Describe that conversation.
A. We talked about -- she was going to come over for Easter
dinner, and she was talking about how she wasn't going to be
able to because of her -- she was having knee problems and --
and so she was kind of flat -- she was flat on her back and she
Chris Cregan - Direct
really couldn't get around. She was telling me how she
wasn't -- she was trying to get out of jury duty. She was
supposed to be on jury duty on that -- starting Monday, and she
was going to get a doctor's statement.
Q. Did your mother have some health problems in the spring of
'95?
A. Yes, she did. She had been ill most of my life.
Q. All right.
A. And so she had to be fed through a port in her chest.
Q. And despite those health conditions, did she report to work
and serve at the Social Security Administration?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. All right. What was her time of entry to the job? What
time of day did she go to work?
A. She usually went in about 6:45 and -- and worked till 3,
3:30, I believe.
Q. Now, in the spring of 1995, was she living alone, or with
anyone else?
A. She was living with my middle brother at the time.
Q. All right. And had he experienced some personal problems
and needed to take shelter with your mother?
A. Yes. Yes, he did.
Q. All right. Mr. Cregan, would you tell the jury where you
were on the day of the bombing and how you first came to know
of that event.
Chris Cregan - Direct
A. I was at work. And I was just -- I was at my desk, and
then I heard a big blast and it shook the -- the pictures on
the wall. And so I just went and got coffee and come back.
And we looked outside and seen it wasn't thunder -- no clouds
out, so we didn't think it was thunder. So I went back to my
desk. And then my secretary come in and said that, you know,
they had heard there had been a blast at the courthouse.
Q. What distance was your building from downtown Oklahoma
City?
A. About 10 miles.
Q. All right. And you could -- you felt the blast?
A. I felt it and heard it.
Q. Where was Sondra's place of business or place of work?
A. She was three blocks away.
Q. In downtown Oklahoma City?
A. In downtown Oklahoma City.
Q. And did you talk to Sondra that morning?
A. Yes, she (sic) did. She was the one that called -- that
called me to tell me that it was my mom's building and I needed
to get down there.
Q. All right. Had she gone out to investigate the blast and
saw that it was your mother's building?
A. Yeah. She went down -- there was some -- some of the
architects in her firm that had got to the corner of the
federal courthouse and stopped her and told her to wait there
Chris Cregan - Direct
until they went up and checked it out and come back and told
her, "You need to go call your husband now." She called me.
Q. When you learned that your mother's building was the site
of the blast, what did you do, Mr. Cregan?
A. I immediately left work and -- and got in the car and
headed -- headed that way.
Q. And did you route yourself, then, to your mother's home?
A. Yes, I did. I was getting -- I was calling her home phone
number and I -- I was getting a busy signal. And so then I
decided to -- to go to her house, because I knew if she was
there, at least I knew she was there and she would be upset
over what had happened. And I seen my brother who lived with
her was at work, at his job, so I thought it wasn't him. So I
just went ahead and went there. And too, they were telling
us -- people not to come downtown unless, you know, you were
emergency medical personnel.
Q. Why did you hope that your mother had -- was at home
instead of in the building that morning?
A. Because I -- I just didn't want to find out that she was --
because I knew where her floor was and I -- you know, that
building. I just knew that if something happened, she would be
close.
Q. When you discovered that your mother was not at her home,
did you and Sondra then go downtown to Oklahoma City?
A. Yes. Me and Sondra -- me and my wife and my oldest
Chris Cregan - Direct
brother -- we went downtown and started searching for her,
trying to get information and --
Q. How close were you able to get to the building?
A. 9th and Hudson. About four blocks away. They had the
perimeter pushed out that far at that point.
Q. All right. Were you able to get a glimpse, at least in
your visit downtown, of the building itself?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what was your reaction?
A. Shock. I just -- I just didn't think anybody walked out
alive. I just knew at that time, kind of felt that she was
gone.
Q. Mr. Cregan, how many days did you and other family members
wait to hear the news of your mother's death?
A. I waited four days.
Q. All right. And can you describe to the jury what that
waiting period was like?
A. It is the hardest thing I'd ever been through in my life,
wondering -- you know, at that point, you're just hoping you
get -- you know, get her back. And it was a -- it's hard to
describe. It was the hardest anything -- I wouldn't wish it on
nobody.
Q. Mr. Cregan, would you tell members of the jury and his
Honor who Kathy Cregan was.
A. She was a very compassionate, very loving mother. She
Chris Cregan - Direct
would do -- she would give a stranger the shirt off her back.
She would always take in -- you know, she would take in stray
animals; and she was just a very, very loving mother. Always
took care of us. Always -- we always came first.
Q. I want to show you a photograph.
MR. MACKEY: Government Exhibit 2216 that I'll offer
into evidence.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be published.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. The jury is now looking at that photograph, Mr. Cregan.
Who's in that photograph?
A. That's my mom.
Q. All right. Mr. Cregan, a final question, please: Would
you describe for yourself, as well as your brothers, the impact
of the death of your mother.
A. It's -- it's been a major impact. I mean, it's changed my
life forever. I've lost that sense of security that, you know,
my mom -- I always knew she was there. She would always be
there. If anything happened to -- if me and my wife were ever
in a car wreck and my wife was killed, I always knew my mom was
there. She would always be there to take care of me. So you
lose that sense of security. Plus, you know, you just can't
replace a mom.
Q. In your case, Mr. Cregan, has the death of your mother
Chris Cregan - Direct
caused separation among your brothers?
A. Yes, it has. It's divided our family. So I've lost my
brothers over this, too.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you so much.
MR. TIGAR: No questions.
THE COURT: Any questions?
You may step down. You're excused.
I think we'll take our morning recess at this time,
members of the jury, for the usual about 20-minute break. And
of course, as usual, please keep open minds and avoid
discussion of the proceedings here among yourselves and with
all others, and continue to avoid anything outside of the
information being provided you and the evidence that was
provided you, to be certain that you can decide this in
accordance with the instructions that will be given to you as
you decide on the basis of what you see and hear in the
courtroom.
You're excused now. 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:11 a.m.)
THE COURT: We'll be in recess.
(Recess at 10:12 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:30 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
You have a matter, Mr. Tigar?
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 146B2 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
(Jury in at 10:32 a.m.)
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Judge, we'll call David Florence.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(David Florence affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: It is John David Florence, II. It's
F-L-O-R-E-N-C-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MR. SENGEL: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. Would you tell us where you live, please, Mr. Florence.
A. I live in Oklahoma City.
Q. Who do you live with?
A. Right now I live in my parents' home with my son, Tray.
They help take care of him for me.
Q. Where is that located?
A. It's in the northwest part of town. They've lived there
all my life -- or I've been there all my life.
Q. How long have you and your son been living there with your
parents?
David Florence - Direct
A. Since April 19.
Q. Of 1995?
A. Of 1995, yes, sir.
Q. Are you employed, Mr. Florence?
A. Yes. I work at Fred Jones Manufacturing in Oklahoma City.
Q. How long have you had that job?
A. I've been with Fred Jones 21 years now.
Q. Did you lose your wife in the Oklahoma bombing?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What was her name?
A. Linda Florence.
Q. Where did Linda work?
A. She worked for the Department of HUD on the 7th floor of
the Murrah Building.
Q. What was her job with HUD?
A. She was a secretary for the multifamily division of HUD
and --
Q. How long had she been there?
A. Oh, about five years, a little over five years.
Q. And in addition to your wife's job there in the Murrah
Building, was she also involved in activities in the Murrah
Building?
A. Yes. She was part of the Federal Women's Group there. She
was the historian of the group, and she had been doing that for
a couple years.
David Florence - Direct
Q. And what was your understanding of what the Federal Women's
Group did?
A. They did projects like fundraisers for, oh, scholarships
for students. They would have parties like for the day care,
just different projects. She did a project for the Federal
Women's where she was the -- helped put on the presentation for
the women of the federal government, and she had done that.
Q. In April of 1995, how long had you and Linda been married?
A. Almost 17 years.
Q. You mentioned earlier your son, Tray. What is his full
name?
A. It's John David Florence, III, and Linda wanted to call him
that and then call him Tray as a nickname.
Q. When was Tray born?
A. He was born October 22, 1995 -- '93. I'm sorry.
Q. Now, prior to the birth of your son, Tray, had you and
Linda tried to have children before?
A. We had tried for 10 years to have a child, and we had no
success doing that. And then we decided we would try to adopt;
and in December of '92, adoption agency approved us. And --
and then in February --
Q. Did you find in February that you were going to have a
child?
A. Yes. She came home. And I was home from work before she
did; and she came home and I was sitting on the couch reading
David Florence - Direct
the paper. And she says, "You're not going to believe this."
I said, "What's that?"
And she says, "I'm pregnant."
And after all the trying to get pregnant all the
years, it was such a joy. And he's our miracle baby.
Q. I'd like to show you a photograph we've marked as Exhibit
2207. If you'd look at the screen in front of you, please,
Mr. Florence. And who do we see in that picture?
A. That's Linda and our son, Tray.
MR. SENGEL: Your Honor, I'm going to offer 2207.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, may be shown.
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. If you would again, please, Mr. Florence, identify the
people we see in the photograph.
A. There is myself, and there is Linda. She was so happy that
day. And then our son, Tray.
Q. About how old was Tray when this picture was taken?
A. He would have been 18 months old the 22d of that month, and
that was in April.
Q. Outside of work and your family, did your wife, Linda, have
some hobbies that she enjoyed?
A. Yes. She liked sewing and needlepoint, cooking. She liked
to -- make and decorate cakes. She loved to read. She just
read all the time, and she enjoyed that very much.
David Florence - Direct
And photography, and she was just -- did a lot of
things.
Q. How did you first hear about the bombing at the Murrah
Building, Mr. Florence?
A. I was at work that morning, and I called downtown. I was
at the other plant, and we were having trouble with our
computers, and I had called downtown and to the Information
Services to see if I could get some help. And Tommie answered
the phone down there, and she hung up on me and said there was
some kind of explosion.
So I called back another one of my employees that was
up on the 4th floor, Viola, and I said, "What's going on?"
And she said, "Well, there has been -- something has
happened, an explosion." And she said, "Maybe it's at the new
County Jail because of all the trouble they had there."
And so I got off the phone and I walked up to the
front office, and they had the television on. And first I
didn't recognize what was going on in the building, and then it
just kind of hit me. And I tried to call Linda.
Q. After you realized it was the Murrah Building, did you then
go downtown?
A. Yes. Loren, another supervisor there, we got in the car
and we drove down and got as close as we could.
And then I got out of the car because of the traffic
was all backed up and I got -- I started on foot. And I worked
David Florence - Direct
my way up around to the front of the building, and it was gone.
Q. After you got to the front of the building, Mr. Florence,
did you get some word that you thought maybe Linda might be in
a local hospital?
A. Well, they -- we went kind of corner -- from corner to
corner, and I ran into Steve Nix, another employee of Fred
Jones; and his wife worked for HUD, too. And we worked our way
to St. Anthony's, and we spent the day there and until they
closed that. And then we went to the First Christian Church
where they took information about Linda.
And that night after I got home -- well, over my
parents' home, our next-door -- their next-door neighbor, Mary,
came over -- and it was about midnight -- and said that her
name was on a list; that she was at St. Anthony's.
We went to St. Anthony's then, and I went up to the
reception and asked if she was there, and she wasn't.
Q. How long did you have to wait, Mr. Florence, before Linda's
body was identified?
A. I received a phone call about 4:00 on the following
Wednesday to come down to the First Christian Church where they
notified me of her -- of her then.
Q. Would you tell us, please, Mr. Florence, the effect the
loss of your wife, Linda, has had on you and your son, Tray?
A. Well, we lost our life, too. We've had to build a new
life, or we're trying to. We don't live in our own home, and
David Florence - Direct
we're trying to go forward.
Q. Mr. Florence, you mentioned to us that one of the hobbies
your wife enjoyed was photography?
A. Yes.
Q. While you were waiting for word of your wife, did you go to
see if she had left some pictures to be developed?
A. Well, it was kind of a fluke that I even thought about it.
I had to go to Hyde's Drug to get a prescription. And while I
was there, I just happened to ask about this roll of film that
we had finished up on Easter, and I had given it to her and she
had put it in her purse. And so I walked over to the counter
where the film was; and I asked, and it was there. And she had
put it in on the 18th on the way home from work.
Q. And did you pick up the pictures that had been developed?
A. Yes, I picked them up.
Q. I'd like you to --
MR. TIGAR: May we approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 146B3 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
David Florence - Direct
(In open court:)
MR. SENGEL: I'd like to show --
THE COURT: You may continue.
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. I'd like to show you what we've marked as Exhibit 1485. If
you'd look at the photograph in front of you, Mr. Florence.
A. Yes, I see it.
Q. Is this one of photographs that your wife took?
A. It was one of them on the roll of that film.
MR. SENGEL: Your Honor, I'm going to offer 1485.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: It's received.
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. When was this photograph taken?
A. It was taken Good Friday in the Murrah Building. The
kids -- the women's group that she was with had an Easter party
for the kids.
Q. This photograph: Did you see that it was later made
available to the parents of the children in the day care?
A. Yes. Our pastor's wife, because I didn't know what to do
with them -- and she took them; and the parents that had lost
children were meeting. And she had taken the pictures and laid
them out on the table and let them pick what ones they would
like and then had copies of them made for them so they would
have pictures, because they may have been the last ones of
David Florence - Direct
their children.
MR. SENGEL: Thank you, Mr. Florence. I have no
further questions.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Please.
MR. MACKEY: Martha Ridley.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand.
(Martha Ridley affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Martha Ridley. It's spelled
R-I-D-L-E-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Ridley.
A. Good morning.
Q. Are you here today to talk a little bit about your
daughter, Kathy, who died in the Oklahoma City bombing?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Martha Ridley - Direct
Q. Where do you live?
A. I live in Del City, Oklahoma.
Q. Can you describe your education, briefly.
A. I have a master's degree in business education. I'm a
former teacher. I'm employed now. I work full-time.
Q. Where do you work?
A. I work for a company called The Mail Room. We're counter
agents for Fed Ex, UPS, and the Post Office; plus we have a tag
agency in the business, also.
Q. Do you work up in Del City?
A. No, I don't. I work up in The Village, which is up at
104th and Main.
Q. Is that in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. I want to show you Government's Exhibit 2213.
MR. GOELMAN: I offer it, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you please identify who the people in this picture
are, Ms. Ridley.
A. It's my father, my son, my daughter and myself.
Q. Okay. And your daughter: Is she on the back right-hand --
A. She is in the right-hand corner. Her name is Kathryn
Elizabeth Ridley, and she was 24 years old when she got killed.
Martha Ridley - Direct
Q. Would you briefly describe what Kathy was like.
A. She was a very vivacious, outgoing person. She liked
music, she liked to sing, she liked to draw, and she was a very
easy, outgoing-type person.
Q. You said that she was 24 when she died?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had she had to battle through some adversity in her life?
A. Yes, she did. She was highly intelligent, but school was
not her favorite subject. She enjoyed most of it, but she did
not graduate from high school. I had three sons that graduated
but she did not. And she had a few problems that she tried to
overcome, and she had gotten to the point where she was in the
Job Corps and she was trying to get her life together and
further education and be able to go on to be able to make a
life for herself and two little girls.
Q. She had two little girls?
A. Yes.
Q. How old were they when she was killed?
A. At the time when she was killed, her oldest daughter was
just a little over 4 years old, and the baby was 4 months and 4
days old.
Q. And you mentioned something about Job Corps?
A. Yes. She was -- she had just come off from maternity leave
to go back to the Job Corps up in Guthrie. And she had about 4
to 6 months of her training to complete and she would have been
Martha Ridley - Direct
a -- she wanted to become a welder, a certified welder.
Q. What is the Job Corps?
A. The Job Corps is a retraining program for young people that
have dropped out of high school or have had problems getting
through school. And it offers them a vocational education.
Training-type program is what it is. It's a very good one.
Q. It's a government program?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. You said that Kathy had not graduated from high school?
A. No, sir, she did not.
Q. Had she ever gone back to school to get her diploma?
A. No, she didn't, but she completed her GED while she was in
the Job Corps.
Q. And when did she first enter the Job Corps?
A. She went into the Job Corps in March of 1994. She was in
Job Corps until that October. She became involved with an
individual that worked on the Job Corps site. She got
pregnant, and they let her stay until, I think, around the
middle of October of '94. And the baby was born the 15th of
December of '94. And she was on maternity leave and had just
been granted permission to go back.
Q. And that was in April, 1995?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there some urgency for Kathy to go back to the Job
Corps right then?
Martha Ridley - Direct
A. Yes, there was, because she was getting near the age where
that by the time she would have completed her training, she
would have been past the age limit and she had to go back then.
If she hadn't have, they would not have let her go back in to
finish her training because she would have been 25 that
following December, and that's the maximum age limit for the
Job Corps.
Q. When was Kathy initially supposed to go back to the Job
Corps?
A. She had been to the Job Corps about a week before that, and
she went up there and spent the day; and they had lost her
records, and they couldn't find her records, so they sent her
back home the same day that she had gone up there. And then
they found her records within the next few hours after that,
apparently; and then they told her to be ready to go back on
the 19th.
Q. On April 19?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do on the morning of April 19?
A. Well, morning of April 19, we got up. We had both the
little girls. I had the girls in day care. She had given me
sole custody of the girls on the 21st of March, and I had the
girls enrolled in day care. And we got up, we took the girls
to day care first; and I was driving down Shields Boulevard and
had just crossed the downtown area. And I had to pull over
Martha Ridley - Direct
into a parking lot which was the old Santa Fe train station.
I'm not sure of the exact name of the street there. And I had
her things. She had everything she had with her. She was
headed back to Job Corps. I had everything in the trunk of my
car, so I had to stop there to let her out. And she got
everything out of there and she got out of the car, and I told
her, "Call me when you get to Job Corps." And -- because I
didn't know if they had changed anything around or not.
And I got back in my car and I headed up to 5th and
went over east and took 77 and went up on to work, because I
work up at Hefner and May, and that's the fastest way for me to
get up there.
Q. Mrs. Ridley, what was Kathy's plan to do that morning in
Oklahoma City?
A. Well, she was going to the -- drop her bag and her things
off at the Job Corps office, which was in the Athenian
Building.
Q. Where was the Athenian Building located?
A. It was just northwest of the Murrah Building.
Q. Was there a parking lot in between the Athenian Building?
A. There was a parking lot there, and I don't know -- I don't
think she ever made it to the Job Corps site, because I was at
work -- I had just gotten into work and I wasn't at work less
than 1 or 2 minutes and we heard the explosion.
Q. And she never called you?
Martha Ridley - Direct
A. She never called me, no. And what had happened was I
waited most of the day. I felt in my heart she was in it, but
I couldn't prove it. And I waited most of the day. I called
the Job Corps. They had no record of her being up there, and
they couldn't find her, and it was just one of those things
that you just sat and you wait and you wait and you wait, and
that's what I had to do.
Q. Did there come a time when your daughter's body was
positively identified?
A. Yes, sir. It was identified -- I think it was on the 28th
of October (sic), the prior Monday. The Medical Examiner had
called my daughter -- daughter-in-law and asked for Kathy's
dental records from the Job Corps.
They got them that Monday; and that Thursday, they
positively identified her.
Q. Did they tell you why they needed her dental records to
identify her?
A. Yes. Because the top of her head had been blown off, and I
believe one of her feet were missing, also.
Q. Did you recover any possessions that your daughter had with
her that morning?
A. The only thing that I recovered when they called us up to
the church was a manila envelope with two rings in it. And
when I -- and they found a -- it had a -- there was a ballpoint
pen in there that they thought was hers. And the pen was not
Martha Ridley - Direct
hers because from where she was at in the intensity of it, the
pen wouldn't have been there, either, but the pen belonged to
someone else. But all I got back was two rings. I opened up
the envelope, and there was charred flesh on the inside of the
rings. This came out in my hands when I got the rings out.
Q. You mentioned that you have three sons.
A. Yes, sir. I have my oldest son -- is deceased. I have a
son in Chicago, Illinois, who is in his mid 30's; and then my
son James is in Oklahoma City with me. And as far as my family
in Oklahoma City is concerned, I have three granddaughters, my
two granddaughters that belonged to my daughter, and my son has
a daughter; so there is just five of us in Oklahoma City.
Q. Was Kathy your only daughter?
A. Yes, sir. She was my youngest child and my only daughter.
Q. How did her death impact you and her two children?
A. Well, it just left a gaping hole in everybody's life,
because No. 1, there are no fathers involved with the two
granddaughters. My oldest granddaughter was a product of a
rape when she was 19 years old. Kathy had a very hard time
dealing with that. So I had Marty, the oldest one -- her name
is Martha Elizabeth. I've had her since she was 4 1/2 months
old. And the baby's father was killed in Houston, Texas, six
weeks before she was born. So there are no fathers involved,
and my son and I are the only two family members other than the
girls in Oklahoma City.
Martha Ridley - Direct
Q. Is there anything about raising your two granddaughters
that reminds you of the loss of your own daughter?
A. Yes, because my oldest grandchild, Marty, is the spitting
image of her mother and she remembers her mother, she talks
about her every day. The baby, of course, does not realize
who -- I'm mom to her and -- but she talks to Katie, who just
turned three years old on the 15th of December. Marty turned 7
on the 27th. My daughter would have been 27 on the 2d of
December, and Marty talks about her mother every day. She sees
things around the house that reminds her of her, and the pain
and the memory -- nothing ever goes away. It's always there.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Mrs. Ridley. That's all I
have.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, and you're excused.
MR. MACKEY: Donald Clark.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Donald Clark affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: And spell my last name?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Yes.
THE WITNESS: It's Donald Martin Clark, C-L-A-R-K.
Martha Ridley - Direct
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Clark.
A. Good morning.
Q. Would you tell the jury where you're from, please.
A. I live in Owasso, Oklahoma.
Q. That's W-A-S-S-O, Oklahoma?
A. O-W-A-S-S-O, yes.
Q. I'm sorry. And where did you grow up?
A. I grew up in Midwest City, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of
Oklahoma City.
Q. What do you do for a living, sir?
A. I am a communications tech for Southwestern Bell Telephone
Company.
Q. Is that in Oklahoma City that you are working?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes. Three.
Q. And what are their names?
A. Chris, Carrie, and Laurie.
Q. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
A. Yes, I have a brother, Dale Clark; and I had a sister,
Kimberly Kay Clark.
Q. And did your sister, Kimberly, die in the bombing in
Donald Clark - Direct
Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir. Yes.
Q. Were you and Dale and Kimberly the natural children of your
parents?
A. No, sir. We were not.
Q. You were all adopted?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was Kim living when she was adopted by your parents?
A. She was born in Hong Kong and came to the United States in
August of 1959.
Q. She had been orphaned in Hong Kong?
A. She was left in an orphanage there in Hong Kong.
Q. How old was she when your parents adopted her?
A. She was three.
Q. Had your parents already adopted you and your brother by
that time?
A. Yes. They adopted my brother in 1949 and me in 1958.
Q. What was Kimberly's job at the time of her death?
A. She was a paralegal in HUD.
Q. And how long had she been working for HUD?
A. I think approximately five years.
Q. Did she enjoy her work there?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. Was she close to some of the people she worked with?
A. Yes, she was.
Donald Clark - Direct
Q. I'd like to show you a picture --
MR. ORENSTEIN: This is already in evidence, your
Honor. Government's Exhibit 2217.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Do you recognize that picture?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Mr. Clark, do you recognize the people who are in it?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Would you tell the jury who those folks are and tell them
what their relationship was with your sister.
A. Up front in the dark -- with the dark hair is my sister,
Kim. Over to the right is Lee Sells. Beside her is Mike
Weaver. Next to him is Susan Ferrell, and next to her is
Clarence Wilson.
Q. Just for the record, that's Kim, second from the left?
A. Yes.
Q. And were these folks that she worked with?
A. Yes, sir, they were.
Q. Was she particularly close with any of them?
A. Yes. She was particularly close with Lee Sells. Lee
always would talk to us if we called up to the office for Kim
and Kim didn't answer her phone. Then Lee would visit with us
for a little bit. If we came up to visit, then yes, they were
close friends, yes.
Q. You told us that your sister had been with HUD for several
Donald Clark - Direct
years. What kinds of jobs had she had before that?
A. She had worked for the State of Oklahoma. She had worked
for the FBI. She worked at the El Reno Penitentiary. She
worked at the VA Hospital. She worked for a short while for
Kerr-McGee Oil Company, and she worked for the Department of
Social Security.
Q. And with the exception of the time she was at Kerr-McGee,
all those jobs, she was a public servant?
A. Yes, sir, she was.
Q. And in what state did she work in all those jobs?
A. In Oklahoma.
Q. Did you ever hear about her talking about leaving Oklahoma?
A. Yeah. She used to -- she used to say all the time that she
was interested in moving to like Dallas or Atlanta or maybe Los
Angeles or somewhere. Yes.
Q. Why was she thinking about that?
A. Because she thought there might be more men available out
there.
Q. Your sister wanted to get married?
A. Yes. Very much so. Yes.
Q. As it turned out, did she find a good man right at home in
Oklahoma?
A. Yes, sir, she did.
Q. Had she gotten married at the time of her death?
A. No, sir, she had not.
Donald Clark - Direct
Q. About how long before she died did she become engaged?
A. She became engaged December of '94.
Q. And when was she planning to get married?
A. May of '95.
Q. Mr. Clark, I'd like you to talk to us a little bit about
the month before May of '95.
A. Sure.
Q. April of '95. Where were you on the morning of April 19?
A. I was at -- at work at Southwestern Bell at an office. I
worked in the SEC, which was housed in a central office
building at 23d and Ollie.
Q. That's about half a mile from the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. Did your wife work there, too?
A. Yes. My wife also worked there in the SEC.
Q. How did you and your wife learn about the bombing that
morning?
A. My wife was -- her station was across the room from where I
was; and when I got to work, I usually wandered over there
about 8:30 or 9:00 after I had kind of settled in and logged
in. I went over there and she was working with some people
from Tulsa and from the -- and some special circuit testers
from the Southwestern Bell offices that are located on Dean A.
McGee.
One of the testers said something just happened and
Donald Clark - Direct
excused herself on the phone and went to a window to look and
see.
I was standing by my wife's desk, and apparently the
tester came back and said something has blown up.
They mentioned something about the Federal Reserve,
and they -- so I went back across over into my work area, and
we took a look at the Federal Reserve's DID trunks, which are
direct, inward-dial trunks for people to call the Federal
Reserve. They were all up and operational.
I went back over to my wife's desk and I said, "Well,
those are in service."
And about that time she said, "Well, somebody says
it's one of the federal buildings downtown."
She had her keys laying right there on her desk, and I
picked them up and I said, "I'm going downtown." And I left
and headed downtown.
Q. When you arrived downtown, where did you go?
A. I -- I parked on 6th Street next to the federal credit
union in their parking lot, which is about a block and a half
from Robinson. I could see smoke, but I couldn't really tell
what was, you know -- what had happened; and so I ran up the
block and made it to Robinson, where I turned south. And I got
to the corner of the YMCA, and I looked up and I saw the
building; and where Kim's office had been was where this hole
was. And there wasn't -- I mean, it was gone. There were no
Donald Clark - Direct
offices there at all.
Q. When you saw what the building looked like, did you expect
to see your sister again?
A. No. I think I -- I knew that she was gone.
Q. How long did it take before you and the rest of your family
learned for sure?
A. The following Monday at 5:00, we received word that she had
been found.
Q. Can you tell the jury what those five days were like for
you and your family.
A. They were extremely long. They were extremely frustrating
and sad. A lot of time we spent praying, even though I knew
that she was gone; but, you know, times like that, you made --
you try to make a lot of deals with God, but unfortunately, you
can't always -- always come through with every deal that we
want him to, so it was -- it was very long and very, very
frustrating.
Q. Mr. Clark, tell us what kind of person Kimberly Clark was.
A. My sister was a very innocent person. She believed that
everybody was extremely, extremely kindhearted and good. She
always tried to help everybody that she possibly could.
She always befriended people that maybe were sometimes
a little bit different from what you might say was the norm.
If someone might be an outcast, then she made sure that she was
their friend.
Donald Clark - Direct
She -- I had a man tell me shortly after she died that
he had come to school in the 7th grade and spoke very little
English, and he had no friends because no one would talk to
him. He came from Italy. And he told me that she would sit
and visit with him at lunch and when she could and that she was
his only friend.
And I thought that was so remarkable that somebody
would 26 years later think that it was important enough to --
to tell me that.
Q. Did Kimberly have a neighbor who had some difficulties in
life?
A. Yes. She lived in my grandfather's house after he passed
away, and there was a man and his mother. And the man is
mentally retarded and somewhat deformed, and his mother was
extremely elderly. And she would take them to the store or go
to the store for them, and on Thanksgiving she made sure that
they had Thanksgiving dinner. She always did things like that
for people. I mean -- I mean it's unbelievable the number of
people that she touched and helped. It's -- it really was
unbelievable that somebody could touch so many people in such a
short time.
Q. Your sister was employed by the government, you told us.
Did she also do some military service?
A. Yes. She was in the U.S. Naval Reserve. She joined after
she was already 30 years old. She loved it. She loved the
Donald Clark - Direct
travel. She met many, many people, made lots of -- lots of
friends and worked even outside her Saturday and Sunday duty to
do things for the Naval Reserve, where she was a paralegal for
them, also.
Q. Mr. Clark, as you look back on your life with Kimberly,
what was the happiest time in her life?
A. The happiest time of her life was from the time that she
met her fiance, Namat Moeini, and with her plans for getting
married. She -- on Easter Sunday, she told a cousin of ours
that's a year younger than I who is not married -- she -- they
were talking about the fact that Kim was getting married, and
she -- she told my cousin, she said -- she always had a way of
either patting or tapping you, and she said, "Don't give up
hope. I got one." And she was very, very happy.
Q. Finally, Mr. Clark, would you tell us what effect and
impact Kimberly's death has had on you and the members of your
family.
A. It's been a great loss. My mom has made the comment that
she feels bad sometimes that they brought her -- Kim here from
Hong Kong for her to end up like that.
We've told her that Kim had a happy life and was a
good person and was very, very devoted to both my parents.
She -- she was a remarkable person. She touched all
of my children, my brother's children. She was an inspiration
to them all and an excellent role model; that if they can even
Donald Clark - Direct
by one-tenth live up to her standard, then they will certainly
be good citizens and wonderful people.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. Clark.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. ORENSTEIN: That's all I have.
MR. TIGAR: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. MACKEY: Mr. Don Ferrell.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Donald Ferrell affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Donald F. Ferrell, F-E-R-R-E-L-L.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mearns.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Ferrell.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you live, sir?
A. Chandler, Oklahoma.
Q. How long have you lived in Oklahoma?
A. All my life.
Donald Ferrell - Direct
Q. Are you married, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What's your wife's name?
A. Sally.
Q. How long have you been married?
A. 44 years.
Q. You and Sally have any children?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many children do you have?
A. We had two.
Q. Did you lose one of your daughters in the bombing in
Oklahoma City?
A. We did.
Q. I'd like you to look, if you would, at your screen at
Government's Exhibit 1469.
MR. MEARNS: And we'll offer that exhibit at this
time, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: The exhibit is received, may be displayed.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Ferrell, would you tell us who the people in the
picture are.
A. On the left is our daughter Cindy. That's me in the middle
and daughter Susan.
Q. Which of your two daughters did you lose in the bombing in
Donald Ferrell - Direct
Oklahoma City?
A. Susan.
Q. And how old was Susan when she was killed?
A. 37.
Q. And how old is your daughter Cindy?
A. 37.
Q. She's 37 now?
A. Now.
Q. Where were you on April 19, 1995?
A. We were in Fort Worth, Texas, in a hotel room; and we were
getting ready to go out for the day. And my wife -- we were
watching CNN. My wife said, "There has been an explosion in
the courthouse in Oklahoma City."
And I assumed it was a boiler explosion. We thought
it was the county courthouse.
Pretty soon, they said it was the Federal Courthouse
and then they said it was the Murrah Building. And we called
home. We called Susie's home phone, thought perhaps she might
still be at home, got her office phone, got an answering
machine. So we called Cindy at her office, and she had just
heard the thing and she was all upset and getting ready to
drive to Oklahoma City.
We told her we would stay in the hotel room till we
heard from her.
And then a few minutes later, they had live video from
Donald Ferrell - Direct
the Murrah Building, saw the cars on fire and the building
blown up.
So we packed up and left for Oklahoma City.
Q. In April of 1995, your daughter Susan was working in the
Murrah Building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who did she work for at that time?
A. She was a lawyer in HUD legal division, Housing and Urban
Development department.
Q. So on April 19, did you return to Oklahoma City?
A. We drove back to Oklahoma City as fast as we could.
Q. And when were you notified that Susan's body had been found
and identified?
A. We were notified Saturday night following the Wednesday.
About 5:00 Saturday evening.
Q. So approximately three days after the bombing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long had Susan been working for HUD as of April, 1995?
A. August would have been 10 years.
Q. And August of 1995?
A. August of 1995 would have been 10 years. I believe that's
correct, yes.
Q. What kind of area of law did she practice in with HUD?
A. Real estate law, and she did quite a bit of work with
Indian tribes, Indian housing. That was kind of her field.
Donald Ferrell - Direct
Q. Did she participate in any educational symposiums about
Indian law?
A. Yes. She took part in -- she had a paper the year before
at sovereignty symposium which is held every year in Tulsa.
She helped organize a sovereignty symposium at St. Thomas
University in Miami, Florida. She helped organize one in 1994,
and she was helping plan the one for -- well, she did the one
in 1995, early '95, and she was helping plan the one for the
following January.
Q. In addition to those professional activities, what other
kinds of things did your daughter Susan like to do?
A. She was involved in about everything. She was a champion
of every good cause that came along, and she was a very
supportive person, interested in other people and other
problems.
Q. Would you tell us about a few of those, please.
A. Well, quite often we'd call her house at night and she'd
answer the phone "Women's Hot Line." She worked with women's
abuse organization there, and she took turns having the phones
transferred to her house at night. She'd answer the phones.
And then she coerced a cousin to provide a lot of legal service
for free for women who needed help.
Q. Was she involved in any other causes or charitable
activities?
A. Oh, yes. Just quite a few. She supported a thing in
Donald Ferrell - Direct
Oklahoma City called the Peace House and the Jesus House. They
were shelters.
She was active in her church, the Unitarian church.
And the list goes on. Since I've been handling her mail, I
keep getting these requests to renew her pledges to all sorts
of organizations.
Q. Could you tell us what type of person Susan was to her
co-workers and the people around her.
A. Well, the last thing she planned, the big thing the week of
the bombing was she was to have a wedding shower for Kimberly
Clark, a young woman in her office. And that was the thing she
did all that last week, and we found the house full of party
food and flowers she was planning and wedding presents for
Kimberly Clark; and I guess they found her body Friday night
about the time -- about the time she would have been hosting
the party.
Q. Tell us, if you would, a little bit about your daughter
Susan's relationship with her sister, Cindy?
A. She and Cindy were very close. They saw each other a lot.
They were really good friends, and that always pleased me that
they -- Susan sort of guided Cindy into the legal profession.
Cindy is a lawyer, also. And she was very close to Cindy's two
children. We have a little boy, Donald, who will be 9 next
month and Rachel, the girl, was 4. And Susie was very close.
She was there when both were born. She was coaching her
Donald Ferrell - Direct
through the birth process, and she'd been there at the birth
and all the birthdays and very close to the two children and to
Cindy as well.
Q. I'd like you to take a look, if you would --
MR. MEARNS: And, your Honor, at this time we would
offer Government's Exhibit 1471.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, may be displayed.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Ferrell, could you tell us who is in that photograph,
sir.
A. That's Susan holding my two grandchildren, Cindy's two
children. That's Rachel on the left and Donald Thomas Ashwood
on the right.
Q. So those are Susan's nieces and nephews?
A. Yes. That's right. That was taken Easter Sunday at
Cindy's house, Cindy and Albert, her husband, their house. And
that was probably the last photograph made of Susan. That was
three days before the bombing.
Q. Tell us, if you would, what effect Susan's death has had on
Cindy and Cindy's two children.
A. I notice a preoccupation with Cindy. She has trouble
focusing on her work, and it really hurts me to watch the two
kids. Donald is a bright kid, did well in school; and since
this happened, he's had trouble -- he's not done as well in
Donald Ferrell - Direct
school. He's had trouble paying attention; and he's -- what's
really disturbing to me, he can't stand to be in the house
without somebody in the same room. He's got to know where
everybody is. If somebody walks out of the room, he wants to
know where they're going.
He worried for a long time after he lost his Aunt
Susan that something was going to happen to his mother or his
father or us. He's asked about that. He asks these tough
questions like, "Will we ever see Aunt Susie again?"
And Rachel -- she was playing with her dolls a while
back. She had two little dolls, and she said those were her
sons and she was going to Oklahoma City for the bombing and
they were going to be killed; and it's things like that are
hard to live with.
Q. What type of relationship did your daughter Susan have with
your wife, Sally?
A. Well, they were close friends and they were a lot alike.
They were both sort of enthusiastic about their causes and they
shared a lot of the same causes, and they were together quite a
bit.
Q. And tell us, if you would, about your relationship with
Susan.
A. Well, Susie and I were buddies. She was the first child,
and we were together a lot. I would -- every week or so, I
tried to have lunch with her. I'd pick her up at the Murrah
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Building, pull in and park in the same place that the Ryder
truck parked later. And we tried to do that quite a bit. We
talked on the phone quite often.
Q. What effect has Susan's death had on you and your wife?
A. Well, it's the first thing you think about every morning
and the last thing you think about at night. I think it's safe
to say it killed a little bit of us. We'll never be the same.
Just can't forget it.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you, Mr. Ferrell.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. We'll call Ruth
Hightower.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Ruth Hightower affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Ruth Brown Hightower,
H-I-G-H-T-O-W-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Ruth Hightower - Direct
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. Hightower.
A. Good morning.
Q. Could you tell the jury where you live.
A. I live at 2001 Alston Street, A-L-S-T-O-N, Fort Worth,
Texas.
Q. How long have you lived in Fort Worth, Texas?
A. About 46 years.
Q. And would you mind telling the jury how old you are.
A. 60 years old.
Q. Do you have children?
A. Yes.
Q. How many children do you have?
A. I have three now.
Q. What are their names?
A. Joyce Brown, Waymon Brown, and Harry Hightower.
Q. Did you have another child?
A. Yes.
Q. What was her name?
A. Anita Christine Hightower.
Q. Was she killed in the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. How old was Anita when she died?
A. 27.
Q. How old?
Ruth Hightower - Direct
A. 27.
Q. Was she the youngest child?
A. Yes.
Q. Mrs. Hightower, did Anita have children of her own?
A. Yes.
Q. How many children did she have?
A. Two.
Q. How old were they at the time she was killed?
A. Ashley was 8, and Antoinette was 10.
Q. Now, can you tell us where those children are today.
A. They're at my house.
Q. Are you raising them?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Are you raising any of your other grandchildren?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. I have five in all.
Q. So you're responsible for five --
A. Yes.
Q. -- small children today?
You're responsible for five children in your home
today?
A. Yes. My grandsons -- two of them graduated, and I have the
three girls that's still in school.
Q. Could you tell us a little bit about Anita and where she
Ruth Hightower - Direct
was employed at the time of the bombing.
A. She lived in Oklahoma City, and she worked for the Job
Corps.
Q. Do you know where the Job Corps was located in downtown
Oklahoma City at the time of the bombing?
A. Yes. It was across the street from the federal building
and the Athenian Building.
Q. Had you ever visited Anita at her office there?
A. No, I hadn't.
Q. But knew that's where she worked at the time of the
bombing?
A. Yeah, her daughter -- the one that was 8 at the time, she
showed me where it was.
Q. Let's turn to April 19. Did you hear about the bombing
that morning?
A. Yes. I was listening to the radio -- I mean I was in the
kitchen and I went back in my bedroom where the radio was on,
and I heard about the bombing in Oklahoma City. And I went to
the phone to call Anita, and the phone just rang and rang.
Q. Do you know how long she had been working for the Job
Corps?
A. I think since November.
Q. And when you couldn't reach her at the Athenian Building,
what did you do?
A. I tried to call her at home, and I didn't get her.
Ruth Hightower - Direct
Q. At that time, on the morning of April 19, did you have any
idea how close the Athenian Building was to the Alfred P.
Murrah Building?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. How did you find that out?
A. I called -- I called -- and I called and I never did get an
answer. And about 11:00 that morning, her friend, Rita Thomas,
called me and told me that the building where she worked had
blew up. And everybody got out but her.
Q. Did you decide to travel to Oklahoma City then?
A. Yes. I -- it was a storm in Fort Worth that day, so I had
to wait till the next morning. And my daughter -- my oldest
daughter, Joyce, she -- we left about 5:30 that morning, and
she took me to Oklahoma City.
Q. Did you try to go downtown and get to the Athenian Building
where your daughter worked?
A. Yes, because I had asked people where was the building
where she worked, and I couldn't get nobody to tell me where
she worked. And then -- this was on Thursday. And then that
Friday -- that Friday afternoon, I talked to a lady I think
worked for the sheriff department, and she told me -- she took
me to the FBI, and they -- this man was getting another crew
ready to go in, and he told me that he would go over to that
building where she worked.
Q. Now, when you first got to Oklahoma City and