INTERVIEWER: Why do you do these interviews?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: I don't know, heck. Why does anybody, anybody talk to other people? You know… you talking about me personally or anybody down here?

INTERVIEWER: You.

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: (TALKS OVER) Like anybody else, I see what’s, I see what’s going on. I have a, I have a better handle, I have a different perspective than most people. I’ve seen it from the inside. You, the other reporters, the average citizen out there, they haven’t been here, they haven’t faced the court system. They don’t really have a working understanding of what’s really going on here. And I guess I’m under some drive, internal thing to, to try to speak out, say hey, listen. Its not what you think it is. I mean, there’s something else going on here. I’m not saying you're foolish, but you haven’t had time to look at the truth and the facts yet. Listen and then come see for yourself. Listen to what I say, and if you, and if I’m wrong anywhere, you tell me. But at least give me a listen to. I mean, its, anybody that sees something wrong, you feel obligated to, to speak out on it. I don't think I’m gonna have any success at it. But… there was an activist priest back in the 60s… man, right now, after 15 years my brain’s started to slip. I can’t even remember the guy’s name now. But what he said one time is you don’t try to, to, you don’t try to change the world or speak out for right or wrong, you don’t ever try to change the world because you think you can succeed.You try to reach, speak out, try to change the world to keep it from changing you. Because the moment you stop trying, you give in to it, and you cross the threshold, (over?) in your own heart, you can never come back from. And I think that's a lot of why, why I do it. I mean, I don't think anything’s gonna change. I know better. But, at least I know, and its on the record somewhere, I at least said it.

INTERVIEWER: What has this long wait been like for you?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: For me, and I think a lot of the guys here, its been like a slow death. You know. They've locked me up long enough that most of everything that meant anything to me on the outside is gone. Its not replaceable, its not reclaimable. I mean, I, I have a relationship with my daughter, I’m still on good terms with my, with my mother. I have a wife. I mean, I have these things. But, the life that goes around that, is gone. And as that dies, something kind a dies inside you. I think the long wait for most of the guys here brings you to a point you really don’t care if they kill you any more.

INTERVIEWER: Would you prefer a swift execution?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: If I’d a known that I was gonna be here this long, I would have happily taken a swift execution. After a few years you have enough invested in the process of trying to fight for your life that you really don’t want to give that, the equity up, I guess. You can’t really afford to give that up. I mean, I haven’t taken a razor blade and whacked my own wrist or anything like that. But, yeah, this is, this has been a slow death. You know, the, the physical deterioration that goes on here, the mental deterioration.You know, a lotta guys, they work real hard to, to keep from going down hill physically and I gave up that struggle a long time ago. And even mental deterioration, you can, you can slow it, you can mitigate it. But that’s the best you can do, its still gonna happen. And you know, when I was, when I was first sentenced to death, I was kind of you know, shocked. It was like, oh, my god. They're gonna kill me. And then after a while, there was a, an anger that came after a few years here that says, these bastards, they're gonna kill me.After 5, 10 years goes by, there is a sort of a quite, matter of fact, they're gonna kill me. Its not that I’m cool with it. But, after this many years of living with it, and watching all my friends die, there’s not much, I just accept it. I can’t change it. And, you know, the worst part about the time here is, is the loss of the friends. You know. I mean, I’ve lost, I’ve met people in here, have, with more integrity than most of the people I’ve known in the streets. There’s people in here that I would trust with my own life or the life of my family. I’ve had friends in here, who, we’ve been through things in here, watching friends die. Going through adverse times with the officers and things that, you build a bond in here that you probably don’t build anywhere else. I’m not trying to say we’re heroes. You know, but its not unlike a war situation, or fox holes, where, where you go through enough adversity with somebody, you know who you can trust and you know how deeply you can trust him. And to watch those people die is really rough. And 2 of the closest friends I’ve had in here… one was executed, my cell partner for 2 or 3 years was executed in June 11^th of, of 97.And then another long term friends who’d been a cell partner on and off for years, moved into the cell, and he was killed June 11^th a 98. Like, that’s just too many hits too close together.

INTERVIEWER: How do the officers treat you here?

16:05:43 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Really the truth is, they have some of that that goes on in some of the other units here. Not this one. Not because of death row… Well, because of death row, they watch us pretty close. And this is an old timer unit. It has just a different feel to it. Most of the guards here are, are particularly the older guards that have been here a long time, they treat us just fine. I mean, they do their job. You build a certain rapport with them where, where you talk to them. You have a comfortable relationship with them.

16:06:12 And of course there's always a few of them who are, are gonna be real jerks, anywhere you go. They're usually the younger ones and the newer ones. Not always. And you deal with those guys, and you just do the best you can. And you've got a crop of, of some newer guys here that you don’t interact with them at all. They're mostly college kids. And they look like they're 16. And they come in and they've got a wall. Which is fine… But in the old days, when I first got here, and still with the older guards, there’s a certain rapport.

16:06:46 Its not so much that they give a damn about you. But they want to know where your head’s at on any given day. I mean, that’s their life at stake. And for the most part they're, they're professional. You know, about a quarter of the guys here are professional. About a quarter of ‘em are real jerks and stupid. And then about half of them are just completely indifferent and lazy.

INTERVIEWER: Would you consider waiting here cruel and unusual punishment?

16:07:12 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Oh, sure.

INTERVIEWER: Why?

16:07:15 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Because of what it does to family. Because of what it does to the survivors of a man on death row. That’s probably the worst aspect of it. In many, in many states and in most countries, the 15 years I’ve done is a life sentence. And would count as a life sentence. And, I’ve done a life sentence now, by those standards. I was given one sentence, I wasn’t given a life sentence and execution. I was given the option between, or the court was given the option between a life sentence or execution.

16:07:48 They gave me the execution. I’ve done the life sentence now, and I'm gonna get executed on top of it. Again, the worst part is what it does to my family. But, I don't think people have, have really taken into consideration exactly what 15 years in this place with that ax hanging over your head every single damn day of your life is like. You know, that stress is unbelievable. You can’t imagine waiting to die every day.

16:08:15 People who lose friends, who lose close friends… whether it’s a work situation or a school situation, they (send ‘em?) to grief counselors, because society’s finally recognized (...?) exactly how emotionally devastating this can be for people. Well hey, you know, I’ve watched nearly 180 people, and the closes friends I’ve got in the world die one after the other. And there’s this really I don't know, sort of a grim survivor mentality you take after a while. And enduring that for a while, I don't know, I think that's an unavoidable side issue.

16:08:52 Its one of those, its an unavoidable side effect of the death penalty. You can’t have a long, a death penalty without that. But, I don't think people have really taken into consideration exactly how cruel that is to put a person through that. And of course if they did, the courts and the average John Q. Citizen out there, they'd be all happy for it. They'd be happy if they came in here and beat us twice a day. You know.

INTERVIEWER: But the victims don’t get released.

16:09:27 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: They don’t, and, and I wish there was something that could be done about that… But putting me through something bad, or putting my family, and that’s the big thing. What they do to my family, putting us through something like that, doesn’t change their status. If, if making me suffer, if they wanted to come in here with, with a drill and drill through my hands and my arms and my head every day as punishment, if that would some how lessen the suffering of the people on the outside, the victims, I’d go for it.

16:09:57 You know, anything, if that makes them feel better, fine. But it doesn’t help ‘em. I mean, you know they can be glad to see it. But, they're still missing their loved one, they're still, and its their decision on whether they go on with life or not.

INTERVIEWER: What is your opinion of lethal injection?

16:10:18 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Well, other than the fact the years it takes and the damage it does, the (...?) lethal injection as opposed to hanging, you know, electrocution. I assume it’s the, you know, it’s the least cruel out of all of them. I’m a little disappointed that, if they're gonna do it that way, they can’t be at least considerate enough to harvest organs and tissues first. That bothers me. If I have to die, at least you know, reclaim something out of it. I’m big into recycling (LAUGHS).

INTERVIEWER: What is the date of you execution?

16:10:50 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: I don’t have a date set yet.

INTERVIEWER: Do you have an opinion about the other types of execution constituting cruel and unusual punishment?

16:11:14 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: I think they do, yeah. I mean, death penalty itself is by definition cruel and unusual punishment… But that doesn’t mean that some of the modes aren’t a little more cruel than the other ones. I mean, obviously Florida has had a miserable history with their electric chair. And I don’t care what anybody says, the gas has got to be horrible. And hanging of course they had to do away with that.

INTERVIEWER: How will you be notified when a date is set for you execution?

16:11:52 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Well, the question is, will I be notified. Obviously I’ll find out sometime before the actual date gets there. But… used to be they'd take you back to the court, they'd have a hearing, they'd set your date, you'd know…. Then it got to be where they would send you a post card in the mail or a letter in the mail from the court, and notify your attorney. Its got to be where now that many of the courts don’t even bother to notify you. You know when you see it on an execution update list that somebody sends in from the Internet, or if you hear it from somebody else a lotta times.

16:12:28 A friend of mine, number 100 that was executed in Texas, a guy named (Joe Lane?). I talked to him out here with a reporter one day. The reporter called him out. He’d had an execution date set for, for like a week. And the reporter called him out to find out you know, talk to him. He had no idea he had a date set. He was 21 days down. Or, or right at 21 days from the actual execution before he knew.

INTERVIEWER: You lawyer doesn’t inform you?

16:12:54 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: The courts don’t feel any obligation to let our attorney know. They hold our attorneys in as much contempt as they hold us.

INTERVIEWER: What type of legal appeals have you attempted?

16:13:07 JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Oh, I mean, I've gone through the whole process, and of course the (...?), you have a right after you're, you're first convicted, you have direct appeal. After your direct appeal with the Texas court of criminal appeals, you have an option for petition for certiorari for the U.S. Supreme Court. My attorneys just forgot to file that step in mine. After that you go into what’s called collateral appeal. Habeas corpus appeal. And it, you start back again.

16:13:36 You go to the state court for the same trial court that sent you there for, you file an, a habeas appeal there. From there you go to the Texas Supreme, the Texas court of criminal appeals for habeas. And, at that point, if you're kicked out, then you move to federal habeas, federal collateral appeal. And you go to a federal district court. And if they turn you down, then you ask the, the 5^th circuit court of criminal appeals in New Orleans to give you some relief. And if they turn you down, your last step is to go to the Supreme Court and ask them for help.

INTERVIEWER: It is reported you had a cynical tone about the execution of (...?).

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Well, I considered most of the people who, who spoke out against (Carla Faye Tucker’s?) execution to be a bit insincere about it. I mean, they were sincere in the fact that they didn’t think she should be executed, and I agree. There should have been a huge uproar about Carla Faye Tucker’s execution. However, again and again and again, we heard, especially from the religious groups that were backing Carla Faye Tucker, that this was a matter of a person who was reformed, a truly rehabilitated person. Not a gender issue. Again and again and again we heard that. We heard it to a point it sounded like they were trying to convince us of something. The fact that there have been a number of men down here who’ve gone through similar changes, who’s dedication toward Christianity is just as sincere, is just as well documented, and none of these groups spoke out for them, that pretty much proves that it was a gender issue. It wasn't about sincere change. And these same groups, you know, I look at them and I think well great you're backing a person who’s gone through changes, you know in a Christian way. And that’s fine. But, I don’t hear any of you people speaking out for somebody who’s discovered, you know, Islam.And the, and the truth of Islam. I don’t hear anybody speaking out in favor of a person who’s gone through, become a Buddhist. Or what ever. I don’t hear ‘em doing that. And its almost an unspoken assumption here that Christian rehabilitation, or reformation is a valid thing. But Islam, and the other varieties of religious and spiritual renewal don’t carry any weight in the country. And I think that's, I think they feel that way, they're just not gonna have the guts to come out and say it directly… (SIMULTANEOUS CONVERSATION) And there should have been, there should have been an outcry for Carla Faye Tucker. But I could give you another dozen people who, who’s change is just as deep and is just as well documented. There was no attention in their case.

INTERVIEWER: Did you see her before she died?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: No I didn’t. They, they keep them in a different unit and I never see the females anyway.

INTERVIEWER: Do you believe the media was hypocritical in its coverage of death row inmates, except for the celebrity type?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: I'm not so sure you can ever accuse the media of being exactly hypocritical in that they are what they are. You know the media now is, is a commodity market. I mean, I don't know how better to say that. Its driven by what sells. And… the days of the journalist being the people out there who try to help you with information to form your own opinions is long gone. Its now, most of it’s the sensation mongering.The fact that there were celebrities speaking out for Carla Faye Tucker made all the difference in the world. Without that, nobody would a cared. And I mean, they didn’t look at the issues. They looked at the hoopla surrounding the issues. And I think that’s how the media usually works (anymore?). I, unfortunately, that, that’s the only media we have now. And without them we have nothing. I’m not saying that they should pan the media, by any means. But it does obligate the average citizen out there to look at the, the frosting surrounding a story in the news.And see what’s under a frosting, see what’s, its really about. And then that’s almost a matter of, of divination. But you know, its there if you look for it.

INTERVIEWER: Have you had any contact with (...?). Is there any friendship left there?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: No comment. I, I really don’t want to get into that. Its not that I, I have a problems with talking about it. Its, the truth is, I have a lot of problems in my own heart and mind and soul in how I deal with it. I’m not sure how (...?) would think about it. It’s a confusing mess to me. And I really, there’s not point in getting into that.

INTERVIEWER: Have you seen him since you've been here.

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: We've been assigned on the same cell block together, in the past. The prison officials are always real freaked out when ever that happens. They have a policy of not putting co-defendants together. Which is probably a pretty good one for the most part. I don’t wish, I’ll put it this way, I don’t with him any ill will at this point, I really don’t.

INTERVIEWER: Are you the same James Beathard you were in 1984?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: (TALKS OVER) Sure, it’s the exact same person. I, I’m probably a tad more cynical than I was…

INTERVIEWER: Were you just as smart as you are now?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: (LAUGHS). I don't think I can really answer that question. I mean, if you, you know its like yes or no. I say yes, I sound like an ego freak, of you say no, than that sounds truly bizarre, too. Yeah, I, I had the benefits of a good education. I mean, I’ll admit that, I had the benefits of a really good education. I, you know, I’ve always enjoyed you know a clarity of mind on some issues. And… I’ve that’s carried me through life so far. I’ve been able to maintain what ever sanity I have left.

INTERVIEWER: Why strike up a friendship with a man who was planning to do what he did?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: (TALKS OVER) Well, without getting into that again, I mean, not everybody tells you what they have in mind ahead of time. You know, that's the problem right there. Not everybody tells you ahead of time. Obviously if I knew what was, what was going to happen, I wouldn’t have been involved.

INTERVIEWER: Have you encountered any prisoners that maybe deserved the death penalty?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: I will never ever meet anybody in here or out there that deserves the death penalty. If I met Adolph Hitler, I wouldn’t say he deserves to die. Adolph Hitler needed to be captured and studied. You know, I mean, if people want to stop crime, they need to check out people and find out why. Whether you look at the sociological causes or whether you find some kind of biological difference in this person. One or the other, you need to check it out. In Texas at least, and I can’t speak for other states, there’s been no meaningful sociological or psychological examination done on the people down here. Nobody has really bothered to see why does this happen? Sociologically speaking, or biologically speaking. That’s completely out of the pale. In fact there’s a psychological examination of any kind is discouraged in this place. Even for the people who are psychotic. Especially for the people who are mentally retarded.

INTERVIEWER: What goes through the minds of people on death row when an execution takes place?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: I, I really don’t know any more… I can tell you what goes through my mind… I’m not saying it ever gets easier. It doesn’t. In fact in some ways it gets harder. However, outwardly, you deal with it in a different way. Simply because you've been through it so many times before… On a deep down level in my heart, in my soul, each execution takes a little more from me. I’m more damaged person, spiritually speaking than I was, then the execution before that and the one before that.Outwardly, I just pretty much go on like everything else. You know, every day in here. Because I really can’t do anything different. What can I do? I can’t jump up and scream and holler. It wouldn’t do me any good to curse the guards. They have nothing to do with the executions. For most of the people, I’ll spend most of the evening not because its something I do deliberately. But because its just human nature. I can’t help but think about the person, and the times I spent with that person, the conversations I had, the talks I had. The nature of the relationship with that guy. I, I have sometimes what’s considered a, a fairly rude sense of humor in here. Sometimes even bordering on blasphemous. The man who was executed last night was a friend of mine, and he was a very strong Christian. And, sometimes I would say things just to (jig?) at him. To get, he knew I didn’t mean anything by it. And he took it that way, and his response was something like, well I better stand away from you in case the lightning hits, or say, watch that guy, he’s the anti-Christ, or something like that. And I remember those times, and the jokes, and I remember his conversations about his family and things like that. I think about those things.

INTERVIEWER: Has your life been touched by religion before or after your imprisonment?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Religion’s always been kind of a problem for me… I believe… but I can’t deny the doubts that I have, either. You know, and its, and I think for any person of any intelligence at all, no matter how much faith they have, there’s still always this intellectual battle. Spiritually speaking. You know, you always have to redefine it and re examine it. Perhaps even renew what you believed already, if that’s what it comes to. And, and that’s been a process for me. I’m, I’m Catholic.My faith has taken a huge beating in the years I’ve been here. I think I still have faith. But some mornings I wake up and I don't know for sure. I mean, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna deny that. I’d like to be able to (SOUND CUTS) faith is unshakable, but I’d be lying if I said it.

INTERVIEWER: Do you believe that no one should be put to death?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: No he shouldn’t. I mean… There’s nothing in the bible that says its wrong to kill except under these circumstances. That, you know, you never hear that. I didn’t see Jesus say anything about that in the bible. The 10 commandments, thou shalt not kill. Except when this happens. You know, what is it like? 85, 90 percent of the population of this country claims to be Christian. And yet, I don’t see ‘em giving any weight to any of their Christian beliefs at all. Everybody wants to go back to Leviticus, and old testament belief in an eye for an eye. But that’s just primarily, exactly what it is. Its old testament, old covenant beliefs. New testament, new covenant with Jesus is different than that. Jesus even said I’ve, you've heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you, and he goes on to explain you know, forgiveness is what you have to do. You know, I look at these people who say an eye for an eye. Well fine, if, their old testament orthodox Jews, then go for it. But if they're gonna believe that, then by golly buddy, they better stick with the whole thing.And that includes, in Deuteronomy, restrictions on, on punishment. You have to have 2 eye witnesses. Other than the person accused. And if you ever have a witness that turns out to lie, they're eligible for a death penalty themselves. And in fact I’d love to see a law passed like that. If we’re gonna have a death penalty, I’d love to see it if prosecutors and police officers who were caught hiding evidence, lying under oath or what ever, were then eligible for some kind of punishment. You know, they're immune from any legal prosecution at all by, by matter of law. But, you know, again and again its been proved whether it was Carrie (Mack’s Cooks?) case, or (Clarence Brandly’s?) case, and a number of other cases where they've actually had to let people go down here, the police hid evidence and lied. You know, that’s documented. That’s not my opinion. The courts have determined this.

INTERVIEWER: What do you think of D.A. Price?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: I’d really rather not comment on that. I think he’s probably, he’s very good at what he does.

INTERVIEWER: What do you have to lose saying what you think of him?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: I, you know my opinion doesn’t matter on that. I mean, I don’t really have much of an opinion about it. I mean…

INTERVIEWER: You're here because of him. You must have some opinion.

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: You know what can I say. Of course I disapproved of (the way he runs, you know?) trials. He’s known throughout this part of Texas as, for being a bit over zealous. You know… I, I think you can take the law, and you can reinterpret it and bend it to your favor if you have the power to do that. If you have the home court advantage. And, and its not just him. Its most prosecutors in the state. You know, you look at people like Johnny Holmes and, and Joe Price and dozens other in Texas, you know, and, if somebody were to go shake all the skeletons out of their closet and actually re-examine all of these cases, I think you'd find more problems than you could possibly imagine in your worst nightmare.

INTERVIEWER: He says that this was a crime which was an intellectual exercise.

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: Yeah, you know, and that’s, that’s the most, that's the stupidest thing I’ve heard of. You know. You know, if you, if you're watching too many movies of the week or something, or reading too many true detective magazines, you might go for that. Nobody kills for that reason. I mean, really. Just like, just like my co-defendant. Nobody kills family for money. You know. There’s something else underlying. There’s something much deeper than that. You just can not kill family for money. Unless there, there’s some kind of biological problem there, you know.

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: He’s a very motivated person. Okay. He has very strong motivations. And he has a bulldog tenacity about how he goes at things that’s just pretty much unrelenting. And the one thing he doesn’t tolerate is people disagreeing with him, speaking against him, going against him in any way. Its that simple. The man has a lotta power in that county. He in his mind has every right to that power, and anybody that goes against that is, is a personal enemy to him. You know, and his job is painting me one way or the other, that’s his, I mean, that's his job, is try and find a way. You know, when you got to trial in Texas, and I can’t stress this enough, when you go on a trial in Texas, its not necessarily about who is most likely guilty. Its about who the most convictable person is. And, ideally, they're the same person. Realistically, sometimes not the case. And many times a prosecutor, whether its in Dallas, Trinity county, Paris county or whatever, their job is to paint that person on trial in such a way to make him more convictable.

INTERVIEWER: Isn’t their job to search for the truth?

JAMES LEE BEATHARD: No, it, I mean, I, ideally it is. You know. But ideally, when people take marriage vows, its to be faithful to their spouses, and how common is adultery in this country? You know, what people say and what they actually do is 2 different things. And, and again, a prosecutor who goes at cases like-