The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Tuesday, November 4, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 61)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 9:00 a.m., on the 4th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, and RANDAL SENGEL, Assistant U.S.
Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park
Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing
for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308,
Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Good morning.
ALL: Good morning, your Honor.
THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury?
MR. MACKEY: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Jury in at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
JURY: Good morning.
THE COURT: You will recall that when we recessed
yesterday afternoon, we were hearing testimony from Mr. Richard
Williams of the General Services Administration. We'll
continue with his testimony now this morning.
Please come in and resume the stand. You are under
oath, Mr. Williams.
(Richard Williams was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman, you may proceed.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Williams, you told us yesterday, in April 1995, there
were 13 people who worked for the General Services
Administration in the Murrah Building.
A. That's correct.
Q. I want to refer you back to the diagram of the General
Service Administration space inside the Murrah Building.
Taking the light pen that you have on the witness stand, could
you display for the jury where your co-workers sat in
April 1995?
A. Yes, sir. This was Don Rogers' office, who was my manager
at the time. This was my office. This was Sherman Catalone,
assistant building manager's, office. Tom Grufman, assistant
building manager. Kathy Brady, who at that time was the lease
inspector, this was her work station. Just outside my office
Richard Williams - Direct
was Joanne Hutchinson's work station. Just a little bit to the
east of that column was Pam Briggs, who was federal building
fund clerk. This was Dot Hill, work station. Sandy Schultz,
Steve Curry, Tom Hall, Mike Loudenslager, and then Melissa
McCully was our student aide, worked at the reception desk.
Q. Mr. Williams, would you point out again where the front of
the building, where the glass curtain wall, was located?
A. Yes, sir. The glass would encompass the entire area on the
front north side of our office.
Q. And that's at the bottom of that particular diagram?
A. That's at the bottom, yes.
Q. Were the work spaces of Mike Loudenslager and Steve Curry
right next to each other?
A. No, they were not. Tom Hall's work station was in between
these two.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Williams. Let's turn to April 19, 1995.
Did you go to work that day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You mentioned yesterday that one of your co-workers did not
go to work that day?
A. Sandy Schultz, our purchasing agent, was on leave that day.
Q. Was there anyone working in the GSA space that was not
usually there?
A. Randy Ledger had come over that morning to make some copies
of an application for a job and was in the office that morning.
Richard Williams - Direct
Q. What time did you get to work on April 19?
A. About 6:30.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I usually come in, as I did that morning. I checked the
energy management system computer to make sure the building was
on line, make sure that things were up and running. I would
check my phone calls from the previous day and start writing
memos or answering requests.
MR. GOELMAN: Can we get that -- remove that?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Pardon?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Do you remember what your schedule was for Wednesday,
April 19?
A. That morning we had a meeting at 8:30 in Mr. Rogers' office
with myself and Robert Dennis, the clerk of court for the
Western District of Oklahoma, along with Sherman Catalone and
Tom Hall to discuss some needed repairs for the courtroom.
Q. Mr. Williams, can you click your pen a couple times to
remove the . . . .
You said that Mr. Dennis was present at that meeting?
A. That's correct. We were in Mr. Rogers' office.
Q. Did Mr. Dennis work in the Murrah Building?
A. No, sir, he did not. His office was in the federal
building courthouse across the street.
Q. What time did the meeting actually begin?
Richard Williams - Direct
A. Around 8:30.
Q. And about how long did it last?
A. I believe we broke the meeting up around five minutes till
9.
Q. And what happened after you finished your meeting at about
five till 9?
A. Mr. Dennis and Don Rogers left his office, I think Don
escorted Mr. Dennis out to the lobby. Mr. Catalone went into
his office, and Tom Hall and I went into my office.
Q. What were you and Tom Hall doing?
A. Tom and I were discussing results of the meeting and
talking about where we would go from here, what we needed to
process, those kinds of things.
Q. So you and Tom Hall are standing in your office talking
about the subject of the meeting --
A. Right.
Q. -- about 9:00?
A. That's correct.
Q. What's the next thing that you remember?
A. That's the last thing that I remember until I came to or
woke, best I can tell, lying on the floor, lying underneath the
rubble pile; and I was lying on my side, and I could visualize
my left arm out to my side. I had no idea what had happened,
had no idea where I was. At that point I could not feel
anything. I don't know if my body was in shock or what the
Richard Williams - Direct
situation was, but that's the only thing I remember to that
point.
Q. Do you remember seeing your left arm?
A. I remember seeing my left arm. I recognized the pink shirt
that I had on that morning with my watch.
Q. What was the first thing that you heard after you came to?
A. The first thing that I could hear was someone saying, "Hang
on, I'll be back." And the next thing I remember is seeing
this huge gray torso of a body that turned out to be the person
who helped dig me out of the rubble pile that I was buried
under and carried me out of the building. It turned out to be
a Oklahoma City policeman by the name of Terry Yeakey.
Q. And you said that he carried you out of the building?
A. I don't know how he got me out from under where I was
buried. I just remember him carrying me to what would have
been Mr. Rogers' office, the window mullions, and at that point
asking me if I could walk, and I tried. I could not, so he
picked me up at that point. Next thing I remember was being
laid on a backboard out on the street and someone talking over
me, asking me things.
Q. So did Officer Yeakey carry you out of the building,
Mr. Williams?
A. That's correct.
Q. How much did you weigh at that time?
A. About 220 pounds.
Richard Williams - Direct
Q. What happened after Officer Yeakey carried you outside of
what remained of the Murrah Building?
A. The next thing I remember is hearing someone working over
me asking me things. I was in and out. I don't recall most of
the conversation. I do remember being put in an ambulance, and
I remember bits and pieces of the ride to the hospital. And I
remember someone screaming and yelling as we went, and it
turned out to be Tom Hall --
MR. TIGAR: Objection to who it turned out to be, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right. I think we're going beyond
what's relevant here.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you briefly tell us what your injuries were from the
bombing, Mr. Williams?
A. Yes, sir. I had over 150 stitches from shrapnel wounds.
My right ear was evulsed, was torn and sewn back on. I had a
fracture to my cheek. I had staples in my head. I had -- my
hand was crushed and had subsequent surgeries to that.
Q. Did your body have any other parts of the Murrah Building
inside of it besides what you've already described?
A. Yes. I continually have glass coming out of my body.
Q. How long were you in the hospital?
A. I was in the hospital about three days and was released to
Richard Williams - Direct
go home and with follow-up doctors' visits.
Q. When were you able to walk again, Mr. Williams?
A. After about two weeks, I could walk without help.
Q. And when did you return to work?
A. I came to work, came back to work after -- it was June the
3d, be about 43 days, I returned to work in the command center.
Q. When was the next time you were able to go see the Murrah
Building?
A. About three weeks after April the 19th, I was able to walk
enough to go over and was escorted through the building so I
could just go see where our office was.
Q. Could you please look inside your folder and see if you can
find Government Exhibit 951.
A. 951.
Q. 951.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. That's a picture of the Murrah Building looking from the
north on an aerial view, looking down on the building.
Q. Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the building when
you first saw it after you got out of the hospital?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 951,
Richard Williams - Direct
your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 951.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: What is it?
MR. GOELMAN: It's computer.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Would you please describe for the jury the extent of the
damage to the Murrah Building.
A. The building damage was basically the column structures
failed, fell; the transfer beam which was the main beam that
ran along the front edge of the building failed; and the
columns and the roof collapsed.
Q. Okay. Point out for the jury where the GSA offices were
located before April 19, 1995.
A. Our offices extended from this column, the circular column,
air chase, clear to the east end which would have been the west
side of the front entrance, of the lobby.
Q. And where was the Social Security waiting room located
before the bomb?
A. Social Security waiting room was just to the east of the
front entrance, right in here. And then the rest of the Social
Security extended out to this area.
Q. What was the function of the GSA office located on the
Richard Williams - Direct
first floor of the Murrah Building until April 19?
A. The GSA office provided service to our customer tenants
throughout the state and alterations work, reimbursable work
for their space, custodial, maintenance repairs, just general
facilities maintenance to the building.
Q. The GSA obviously could not return to its offices in the
Murrah Building?
A. That is correct.
Q. What did GSA do, then?
A. We were provided new space within the old postal building
at 215 Dean A. McGee in June.
Q. How did the bombing affect your agency's ability to carry
out its function of maintaining government buildings?
A. It severely impacted our ability to function in that we had
people who were obviously injured, lost, or emotionally not
capable of functioning. We had to bring people in from the
outside, from the other regional offices to assist us for a
long period of time.
Q. What were the hours of operation for the Murrah Building
before it was destroyed?
A. The building was open from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.
Q. Does that open mean for the general public or for its
employees?
A. Yes, sir, for the public also.
Q. What about for its employees?
Richard Williams - Direct
A. Employees could come and go, if they had access, card-key
access to the garage, anytime day or night. Social Security
would work on weekends. The other agencies would work around
the clock. They had access to the building through the garage.
Q. Mr. Williams, was there ever a time of day or week that you
could guarantee that there wouldn't be anyone at all inside the
Murrah Building?
A. No, sir.
Q. And when was the building most crowded?
A. Generally the building was most crowded around 9:00 a.m.
due to the Social Security waiting room, due to the agencies
coming in, opening their offices around 9. And the public
would come in and do business with VA or HUD or any of the
other agencies in the building.
Q. Mr. Williams, did any of your co-workers in the GSA die in
the bombing?
A. Yes, sir, they did.
Q. What were their names?
A. Steven Curry and Michael Loudenslager.
Q. Before coming to court today, did you fix name tags of
Steve Curry and Mike Loudenslager to a diagram of the first
floor?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, with the Court's permission,
I'd asked Agent Tongate to put the diagram of the first floor
Richard Williams - Direct
with the names of the deceased up on the easel.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Can everybody see?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Williams, is that an accurate display of where Mike
Loudenslager and Steve Curry worked before the bombing?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
THE COURT: Is there a reference?
MR. GOELMAN: As far as the exhibit number?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: 951.
MR. GOELMAN: 951.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: 952.
THE COURT: Well, however it's marked, somebody look
at it and tell me how it's marked.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: 952.
MR. GOELMAN: 952, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: All right.
THE COURT: Just a moment. We have an exhibit in
front of the jury. It hasn't been admitted.
MR. GOELMAN: My apologies. Move to admit.
MR. TIGAR: We object, your Honor, on the grounds
previously discussed in chambers.
THE COURT: That's overruled. You may have a
continuing objection for this --
Richard Williams - Direct
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Is that an accurate depiction of where Steve Curry and Mike
Loudenslager worked before the bombing?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Did anyone work in the space in between them?
A. Yes. Tom Hall, the planner/estimator who was in our
office, worked between the two work stations.
Q. Do you know if Tom Hall was at his desk when the bomb went
off?
A. No, sir, he was not. He was in my office with me.
Q. And did Mr. Hall survive the bombing?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Finally, Mr. Williams, before coming to court today, did
you review Government Exhibit 1126, a poster board with two
pictures on it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what's depicted in that Government exhibit?
A. Those are pictures of Steve Curry and Mike Loudenslager.
Q. Do those photographs accurately portray those individuals
the way they appeared before the bombing?
A. Yes, they do.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we'd offer Government
Exhibit 1126.
MR. TIGAR: We have an objection, and it is the one
Richard Williams - Direct
previously made in chambers and ruled on; and I'm just trying
to protect the record.
THE COURT: Overruled. And again, you may have a
continuing objection for such photographs when they're offered
for other persons.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: So display 1126.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Williams, will you please tell us what Steven Curry did
for the GSA.
A. Steven Curry was a maintenance-work inspector. He come to
work for GSA in about 1987 as an electrician, and Steve
inspected our construction and alteration work throughout the
state.
Q. What about Mike Loudenslager?
A. Mike Loudenslager was a planner/estimator. He estimated
alterations projects and put together specification packages
for our office.
MR. GOELMAN: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Tigar, do you have
questions?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
There are a lot of things on the desk here.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Richard Williams - Cross
Q. Good morning, sir.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help Terry Nichols in this case, sir.
A. Nice to meet you, sir.
Q. You had worked for GSA for quite some time; is that right,
sir?
A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. Now, when you were first describing for us yesterday where
the Murrah Building is, you remember that map of the United
States where Interstate 40 and Interstate 35 crossed there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So Oklahoma City is at the intersection of those two
interstates; is that right?
A. To the east -- to the west of those two intersections, yes.
Q. More or less where they cross?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if you take I-40 on west, pretty soon you get to
Kingman, Arizona; right? Or after a couple of days?
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. And I-40 east runs to Arkansas; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, there was something that I wanted to clear up. I'm
going to put up on the -- this is Government Exhibit 952, which
has been admitted in evidence. If we could have that. This is
Richard Williams - Cross
the first floor.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you see that, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And that was a part of that video presentation, and there
are some numbers and letters on that diagram. Could you tell
us what those are?
A. Those are column line locations for the structure of the
building.
Q. I see. And so on the first floor, we would find, what, 37
columns, is that right, across the front?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And then D, E, F, G, those are columns that
support it on the other side?
A. Those would be locations from east to west.
Q. I see. And I'm going to put up another page from that same
exhibit, sir. And I see 8, 10, 12, 14. Is that because some
of the columns do not rise the full nine floors?
A. I'm not familiar with that part of the structure.
Q. Okay. But at any rate, your understanding is that these do
refer to the columns?
A. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Q. Now I want to put up on here Government Exhibit 949A.
That's been admitted; and I'll ask you, sir, this -- I'm
pointing with this pen. This old post office is connected to
Richard Williams - Cross
the Federal Courthouse with a walkway on the third or fourth
floor, isn't it?
A. That's correct, it's a walkover.
Q. Right, a walkover, so you can get from one to the other?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's not shown on the plan, is it?
A. No, it's not. That's a crossover across the alley.
Q. And the -- where I'm running my line, that's an alleyway?
A. Yes, sir, that is an alley between the two buildings.
Q. Now, as of that morning, before 9:02, here in the Murrah
Building, if somebody wanted to get into the Murrah Building
parking lot, where would they go?
A. They would go either to the east or west entrance to the
garage, unless they had access to one of these other two
buildings themselves, which would have been someone like the
court clerk or someone who works in the other two buildings.
Q. But if it was just a civilian person who had business,
didn't have any kind of a special card, they were just going in
the Murrah Building underground parking, what street would they
enter off of? Could you just point to that?
A. Either Robinson -- do I need the pointer?
Q. No, that's okay. I can do it. Either Robinson which is on
this side --
A. Either Robinson side or the Harvey side.
Q. Or the Harvey side, either way?
Richard Williams - Cross
A. Either way, you can enter through there.
Q. And Harvey, as I understand, is a one-way street?
A. It's one-way north.
Q. Is Robinson two-way?
A. One-way south.
Q. One-way south.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And north is up in this direction towards the top;
is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, I'd like to put up, sir, if I could, 951, which has
been admitted. I think you talked about that. That's that
picture of the building. Now, do you know when this picture
was taken?
A. No, sir, I'm not familiar with the date on it.
Q. All right. Well, does it appear from -- you mentioned that
it looks like what the building looked like when you were able
to -- you know, when you were recovered enough to get back
there.
A. Right.
Q. And do these -- are these, what, construction cranes that
are removing rubble and so on? Is that what that appears to
be?
A. Construction cranes were hauling debris from the upper
floors.
Richard Williams - Cross
Q. Okay. Turn that off. Thank you.
Now, was GSA in charge of the elevators in the
building?
A. We had a contract with the GSA with Midwestern Elevators
that maintained our elevators.
Q. Okay. And did you ever receive a report from -- about what
happened to the elevators as a result of the explosion?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: What's the objection?
MR. GOELMAN: Beyond the scope.
THE COURT: Well, shall we call him back at a later
time in the trial?
MR. GOELMAN: Withdraw.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, would you read the question.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Sure. Did you ever hear a report of what happened to the
elevators as a result of the explosion that happened at 9:02
there?
A. No, sir, I did not personally receive a report there.
Q. Did you ever hear any government employee report to you
what, if anything, happened to the elevators?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: Objection. It calls for hearsay, your
Richard Williams - Cross
Honor.
THE COURT: He said no. That's an answer.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I wanted to ask you about GSA's duties within the building
that you were describing. Do you all have a responsibility for
cleaning -- does GSA crews -- I'm not saying you personally,
but do you all's crews clean the buildings?
A. The contract we have is in Oklahoma City was with NISH,
National Institute for Severe Handicapped, through the
Goodwill. That was our contract in Oklahoma City.
Q. And who is it that ordered the supplies, the cleaning
supplies and so on that would be used in the building, sir?
A. Generally the contractor did. There were some joint
ventures that we did with the contractor for recycling.
Sometimes we would order some of the materials.
Q. Well, that was going to be my next question. So you did
have recycling programs in place?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Now, did you recycle plastics?
A. No, sir, we only recycled paper at that time.
Q. Okay. And do you know what, then, happened to the plastic
containers in which cleaning solutions were delivered to the --
for use by these people that were cleaning the building?
A. Generally the contractor is responsible for disposal of
those types of materials.
Richard Williams - Cross
Q. Were those -- I mean was that sort of like the regular
trash pickup? The stuff would be put out there and would be
taken away every few days or something like that?
A. That would depend on the material in the barrels. If it
was a toxic material, they had a specific type of disposal they
had to go through. Otherwise, it was their responsibility to
dispose of those.
Q. Okay. And then my next question is did cleaning supplies
arrive in barrels that you observed while you were there?
A. There were some floor-stripping materials or wax that would
come in barrels.
Q. And you're not an expert on plastics, are you, sir?
A. No, sir, I'm not.
Q. Okay. You said your main job was in maintaining the
air-conditioning systems; is that right?
A. As a maintenance mechanic early in my career, yes. As a
building manager, I was responsible for all of that.
Q. I see. Everything?
A. Right.
Q. Did your expertise extend to what the different kinds of
plastics were that were used for different purposes in
air-conditioning, heating, water pipes, and so on?
A. No, sir. Because most of our buildings did not have
plastic materials in them in terms of plumbing or electrical.
Those were all hard-drawn products like metals.
MR. TIGAR: I see. Thank you very much, sir. I have
no further questions. I appreciate your answering my
questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman, do you have any redirect?
MR. GOELMAN: No.
THE COURT: May the witness be excused, then?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: The United States will call Susan Hunt.
Miss Beth Wilkinson will present her.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Susan Hunt affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Susan Gail Hunt, H-U-N-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Miss Wilkinson.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Miss Hunt. How are you doing?
Susan Hunt - Direct
A. I'm fine.
Q. Could you tell the jury where you live?
A. I live in Mustang, Oklahoma. It's a suburb of Oklahoma
City, to the southwest of the city.
Q. About how far away is it from downtown Oklahoma City?
A. It's about a 25-minute drive.
Q. And how long have you lived in Mustang?
A. We have lived in Mustang 25 years.
Q. You say "we." Are you married?
A. Yes, I am married. I've been married 30 years. We'll be
married 31 in the end of November.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes. We have two sons: Jerry that just turned 30 and
Lance that's 27.
Q. And you have one grandchild; is that right?
A. And I have 12-year-old grandson.
Q. Can you tell the jury where you grew up?
A. I grew up in Wichita Falls, Texas.
Q. And did there come a time when you moved to Oklahoma City
with your husband?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. Go ahead.
A. We moved in 1967.
Q. Now, after you had your children, did you start working at
a bank?
Susan Hunt - Direct
A. Yes. First I managed apartments and worked for a
commercial leasing company, and then I started a career in
banking.
Q. And how long did you work at a private bank?
A. I worked at a private bank -- actually two different banks
for 12 years.
Q. And then did you join the government?
A. Yes. When I left the bank, I was assistant vice president
in loans, and so it was a natural evolution. I applied for a
job with HUD in the REO or the Real Estate Owned Department and
was hired with HUD in 1989.
Q. HUD is the --
A. U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development.
Q. All right. Tell us what you did for HUD when you were
first employed by them.
A. When I first went to work for them, I went to work in the
Real Estate Owned, or at that time it was called Property
Disposition. This was the branch of Single Family Housing
where foreclosures would have already been completed on FHA
loans. We would take the property that was rendered from that
foreclosure and ready them for resale. What you would know as
HUD homes.
Q. Are you still employed by HUD today?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. What is your current position?
Susan Hunt - Direct
A. I am single-family housing specialist in the Single Family
Division. I act as the underwriter and appraiser for the State
of Oklahoma.
Q. Were you employed by HUD back in April of 1995?
A. Yes, ma'am, I was.
Q. What did you do for them back then?
A. I was the administrative officer. In the real world, we
would think of administrative officer as an office manager,
basically someone who would take care of all the needs of the
office from space, pencils, papers, handbooks, anything that
was needed so that the employees could do their job.
Q. Did you also deal with personnel issues?
A. Yes. I dealt with personnel, health, all kinds of --
anything that was specialized for that individual person.
Q. Now, where was the office, the HUD office, located back in
April of 1995?
A. The HUD office was located at the Alfred P. Murrah
Building, which was on N.W. 5th Street.
Q. And how many men and women were working for HUD in the
Murrah Building in April of 1995?
A. The HUD office on 200 N.W. 5th at that time, 124 people
were officially assigned to that building.
Q. And where within the building were the HUD employees
located?
A. We had three floors. Actually the fifth floor, we had a
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small office where just one person officed. On the seventh
floor, we had almost the whole floor except for probably
10 percent at one end. And we had the entire eighth floor. We
had been planning an expansion to the sixth floor, but we had
not moved our personnel there yet.
Q. Okay, let's talk about that for a moment. You said one of
your job duties was to work on space issues; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you start your plan to increase your space for HUD
employees?
A. September of 1994, we started aggressively planning an
expansion of our space in the Murrah Building.
Q. And did you work on that plan up until the day of the
bombing, April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
Q. In fact, did you -- were you going to work on that plan
that day?
A. Yes. I had an appointment at 9:00 with a vendor that was
coming in for equipment that we'd be using on the sixth floor.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 952 so you can tell
the jury about the floor plans for your employees. Now, I'm
starting you here with the seventh floor. Do you see that on
your computer screen?
A. That. I have the first floor.
MS. WILKINSON: Oh, we need the computer. I'm sorry.
Susan Hunt - Direct
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, I do.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. And can you tell the jury about what divisions were located
on the seventh floor for HUD?
A. The seventh floor, primarily housing encompassed the full
area. We had Asset Management, which was a branch of Single
Family Housing, and we also had Multi-family Asset Management.
They were in the, in this . . . I hold that down. In this area
would be the Asset Management.
We had Contracting, which was really an administrative
function; but Contracting handled housing issues. They were in
this area.
We had REO, which would be the Real Estate Owned, both
multi-family and single-family; and they encompassed this
entire area.
Next to it was Valuation which was the appraisal
entity of single-family.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Excuse me for just a moment.
MR. TIGAR: Object to the narrative and to the detail,
I think it's --
THE COURT: Yes, let's go question and answer.
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did you go to the next division that was assigned and
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seated?
A. Yes, public housing.
Q. Do you recall how many people were assigned to the seventh
floor on April 19, 1995?
A. There was approximately 80 employees.
Q. Let's move up to the eighth floor. And if you start from
the left, can you tell us what agency was there at the front of
the building?
A. Yes.
Q. On the left side?
A. On the northwest --
Q. Yes, please.
A. I mean northeast corner?
Q. Yes, please.
A. Legal division --
Q. Can you mark that with the pen.
A. -- are the offices that you see. And to the south of them
was the management, which was our area coordinator, deputy
management. We also had a labor person, and an economist that
sat in this area.
Q. Okay. Can you go back to the legal office there and just
put an X where the legal staff resided?
A. Okay. We had a legal library, and we had -- I went over
too far, because this part of that was FH and EO. Okay. The
three offices here and then right out in front of them was the
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legal staff.
Q. All right. Now, you see the front where you just marked
and it has the column numbers?
A. Yes.
Q. That black line along the way: Can you mark that or follow
that with your pen?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury --
A. That would be --
Q. What's right there along the line?
A. That would be -- 28 to 26 was Legal. The office -- well, I
guess it would be -- I can't hardly read it -- 25. The three
offices from 28 to 25 would be where Legal is.
Q. And what kind of structure was there right there, the front
of that?
A. That was glass windows.
Q. And was that true for the entire face of the offices of the
Housing and Urban Development on the eighth floor?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. Now, can you go over to the right, continue on and
tell us who had their offices in the center of that space.
A. The next office would be Fair Housing and Equal
Opportunity, which is what we called FH and EO. And that would
be the office that would start at where 25 would be if there
was a number there.
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Q. Uh-huh.
A. And to 23, if there was a number.
Next to it was an office, and it would be like 23
through 19.
Q. You can just put an X there. You don't have to go through
the numbers.
A. Okay. That was Community Planning and Development. Our
block grant division.
Q. And what was right there below the computer room and the
break room?
A. The Office of Native American Programs took up almost the
full rest of the floor, except for the administrative area.
Q. And show us where the administrative area was.
A. The administrative area took in the full southwest corner.
These were storerooms back in the back, in the office against
the plaza windows.
Q. Did you have an office back in that area?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did. It was the corner office in the
southwest corner.
Q. Can you just mark that with a -- you did -- with an X right
there in the back corner.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And from there, if you looked out your back window, what
did you see?
A. I could see the plaza on the south side of the Murrah
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Building.
Q. Okay, I'm going to switch to the ELMO to show you the fifth
floor. You said you had a small office space for an employee
down there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. If you can erase those.
That's this yellow area right here where I'm pointing?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Tell us who had an office there.
A. The OIG. The Office of the Inspector General assigned --
he was an investigator, and he was assigned to HUD. And he was
the only HUD employee that was officing on the fifth floor.
Q. What was his name?
A. Paul Broxterman.
Q. Was he a law enforcement officer?
A. Yes, ma'am, he was.
MS. WILKINSON: You can go back to the computer.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, you said that one of the floors was too crowded and
you were going to be moving employees from that floor. Which
floor was overcrowded?
A. The seventh.
Q. And where were you going to move those employees?
A. They were being moved to the sixth floor. We had moved
another agency out, and they were preparing the space for HUD
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employees to move.
Q. You told us that there were 124 employees assigned to the
building --
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. -- on April 19; is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How many of those people were present in the Murrah
building on that day?
A. There were 82 of the HUD employees present.
Q. Was that typical of HUD, to have that many employees out?
A. Yes. We -- our main emphasis is dealing with community
outreach. We dealt with not only lenders but municipalities,
state entities, nonprofits. So it -- we had a significant
amount that day out on a seminar, a housing seminar. And
others on -- meeting with municipalities.
Q. Did you go to work on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
Q. What time did you arrive at the Murrah Building?
A. I arrived at the Murrah Building a little bit after 7:30.
Q. And did you see people who were present that day in the
office?
A. Yes. When I first got in, I chatted with my staff, Freida
Bean and Tom Ward; and I -- after I took care of some business
that morning, I started out to get a cup of coffee, and I saw
Paul Broxterman at the storeroom door. He was --
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Q. Go ahead and show us on this eighth floor map -- or was it
on the seventh floor -- you were on the eighth floor; right?
A. Right.
Q. Show us where you saw Mr. Broxterman.
A. Well, the door -- I was standing about where I put the X.
But the door to the storeroom was the door just north of where
I put the X. He was standing there; but being a new employee
to HUD, Oklahoma City, he had not had a chance to get supplies,
and he was trying to get ready for a trial; and so he was
needing pencil, papers, note cards, and so forth. And I helped
him gather those.
Q. Did you ever see Paul Broxterman alive again?
A. No, I did not.
Q. What happened after you saw Mr. Broxterman?
A. After I saw Paul, I got the coffee pot. Freida had made
coffee, but grounds had gotten down in it. And the only source
of water we had was at the women's rest room on the southeast
end of the building. So I left the office and walked on the
outer space, the hallway space that on this shows in white.
Q. Who was the next person that you saw?
A. The next person I saw when I -- I came in the security door
and turned the corner to walk back through HUD space, and I saw
Tony Reyes. We spoke. He offered me a piece of candy for
breakfast, and I kept walking.
Q. Who did you see next?
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A. The next person I saw was Ruth Hill. She officed in Native
American Programs, and her office would have backed up to the
women's rest room about in that area.
Q. Now, did you move on and see some other folks in that area?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did you see?
A. I saw Don Burns, and I saw Lanny Scroggins. Lanny and Don
work for Native American Programs, and they were construction
analysts. They were dealing with a construction issue and
talking to each other, so I just spoke to them briefly and kept
walking.
Q. You didn't engage in any conversation with them at that --
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever see Don Burns or Lanny Scroggins alive again?
A. I did not.
Q. What did you do after you left that area?
A. After I left that area, I was still trying to make my way
back to the administrative office. When I got even with the
door, which was by the break room and the rest of the Native
American staff were there, and George Howard called me over to
his desk. He was also a fairly new employee to the Oklahoma
City HUD office. And we discussed his health insurance that we
were trying to convert from California to Oklahoma.
Q. Which division was Mr. Howard assigned to?
A. He was in the Community Planning and Development Branch of
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what we call ONAP which is Office of Native American Programs.
It's housing for Native Americans.
Q. Let's move on to 9:00, Miss Hunt. Did you have a meeting
planned for that morning?
A. Yes, ma'am. I had a meeting with a vendor that I had set
up on Monday.
Q. And what was that vendor supposed to help you with?
A. He was going to help me with some lateral files. Even
though the Government is trying to go to a paperless workplace,
it became obvious that it was necessary for us to have lateral
files.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor, please. I object
to the detail which is not really relevant.
THE COURT: Yes, we don't need that much detail.
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor. I just have one
follow-up question on that.
THE COURT: All right.
Please limit your answers to just what's necessary to
answer the question.
THE WITNESS: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Was that part of your plan, from September 1994, to move
your employees to the sixth floor?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, did you do anything in preparation for that meeting at
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around 9 a.m.?
A. Yes, I did. I walked back through the HUD space and went
to the security door at the other end of the building.
Q. Did you see any employee -- HUD employees at that time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you see?
A. I saw Mike Weaver in legal department. He was one of our
attorneys. Susan Ferrell, one of our attorneys, walked by me
briefly.
Q. Was that the last time you ever saw those two people alive?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, what did you do after you saw those folks?
A. I talked to Lee Sells, who was secretary to the legal
department. And talked to Kim Clark. I didn't see them, but
we had partitions; so I just talked to them through the
partition and asked them to please listen for the security bell
to let my person in.
Q. Did Lee Sells and Kim Clark die in the bombing on April 19?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Now, did you go, head back toward your office for the
meeting?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you see other people that morning?
A. I saw Tony Reyes again, but he was standing in the doorway,
talking to Peter Avillanoza. Peter and he were discussing a
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issue, so I just said hi to them and kept walking.
Q. Was that the last time that you saw Mr. Reyes and
Mr. Avillanoza?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Did you see David Burkett that morning?
A. Yes. When I got almost even with the administrative
hallway, Dave Burkett sat just behind a partition; and George
Howard called me back to his desk to talk to him again about
the insurance.
Q. Did you see anyone else that day?
A. I did see Jules Valdez. Jules Valdez officed against the
windows, just parallel to Dave Burkett and to George Howard.
Q. Was that the last time you saw those three gentlemen alive?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Did you go back to your area in the administrative
division?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And who were you with?
A. When I got back, Freida had called me from that area to
take a phone call. I took the phone call; and I chatted with
Larry Cook, who was acting chief of Single Family Property
Disposition and another Single Family employee.
Q. Miss Hunt, what happened at 9:02 a.m. on April 19?
A. I had left my office. Freida was on the phone with the
regional office dealing with a travel problem. There were
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several Native American Program employees in the office. Her
break buddy was waiting on her to go to break. I was standing
in front of Freida's desk urging her to go ahead and go to
break when all of the sudden, everything just started falling
in on us. There was so much debris in the air, we couldn't
see.
Q. Did you hear anything?
A. No. We really didn't hear anything. We heard some debris
falling; but as for the blast, we did not hear the blast.
Q. Can you show the jury on this Government's Exhibit 952
where you and your secretary were at the time of the blast?
Just mark an X for us.
A. I had my back to the plaza windows.
Q. What happened to those plaza windows?
A. Although debris was hitting us from the front, the plaza
windows sucked back in and the glass hit my back -- and which
we now know is good, because it would have blown us out the
window. But it knocked us all to the ground.
Q. Were you unconscious?
A. I think for a short period of time.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. After that, when I kind of got my senses back, I unhooked
Marla's -- Marla Hornberger from Native American Programs was
hooked in all the debris that had fallen from the ceiling, in
wiring; so I unhooked her earring; and I looked over and Dianne
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McDonald was lying on the floor, and I helped her up.
Q. Did you see anybody else on the floor?
A. Freida had been knocked under her desk, and a filing
cabinet had fallen from -- a whole wall had caved in from
behind her.
Q. Were you able to get her out?
A. I'm sure I couldn't have done it by myself; but evidently
she helped me, and I was able to lift her.
Q. What did you ladies do after you got yourselves on your
feet?
A. Tom Ward, my male clerk, was helping us over the debris.
There was a large copier that had blown over into the floor.
So we had to climb over the copier to get towards the door
where the door used to be. And it was so thick with smoke and
debris, we had a hard time seeing. So Tom helped us over that
copier.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. We went to the doorway of the administrative office, which
would be about right here.
Q. Were you able to get out?
A. At that point, everybody else kind of went ahead. We were
trying to make it to the stairwell. I tried to go back into
the space because I had just seen so many people there. And
Tom stopped me, and that was when I knew that it was pretty
bad, 'cause I could see the sky through the smoke.
Susan Hunt - Direct
Q. What do you mean you could see the sky through the smoke?
A. Where the front of the building had been, I now could look
up and see blue sky.
Q. Did you go down the stairs?
A. Yes. Troy Grigsby had been in charge of our escape plan
from the building. Like all buildings, we had a fire drill
occasionally in GSA, and Troy worked with all the building
employees.
Q. Did you follow that escape plan, or try to?
A. Yes, we did. We went to the stairwell which was behind the
administrative office.
Q. Did you see anyone as you went down the stairs?
A. By the time I got to the seventh floor, I met a lady from
Drug Enforcement that I recognized as Bonnie. And she --
Q. Was that her first name, or her last name, or did you know?
A. I just knew her as Bonnie.
Q. Okay.
A. And the -- she was holding Larry Cook, who had been in my
office earlier; and he had a gash on his head and arm. And he
was a big guy. And with me being 6-foot tall and her being
little, I took Larry from her to try to support him down the
stairs.
Q. Did you help him get down?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get out on the right floor?
Susan Hunt - Direct
A. First we counted the floors down. Larry was disoriented,
and we were trying to -- I was trying to give him hope that we
could get out. And when we got to the second floor, I
miscounted and went down to the basement.
Q. Did you see anyone else as you were going down the stairs?
A. There were people coming out on all the floors in varying
degrees of injury, a lot of them like me that was still
walking, and some of them supporting others.
Q. Did you see any rescue workers coming into the building?
A. At that point, no. I saw a man when we came to the -- back
up to the second floor, and he asked where the day-care center
was, and I told him the second floor.
Q. And did you go on out of the building at that time?
A. I went on out of the building.
Q. What did you do with Mr. Cook?
A. I was still supporting him. And when we got to the plaza
area, there's stairways that went down in all directions to the
street, and I tried to make my way to one of the -- to the
street.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 954. Do you see that
on your screen? It's not before the jury yet.
A. Yes, ma'am, I do.
Q. Do you recognize that photo?
A. Yes. It's the plaza, looking at the Murrah Building from
the south.
Susan Hunt - Direct
Q. Does it fairly and accurately depict what you saw that day?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, Government would offer
954.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. 954. It may be published.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. And Miss Hunt, if you could take your pen again and show
the jury generally where you came out.
A. The little black dots that are going up the building are
really windows that had been blown out. You can't see it from
here, but -- the trees are blocking it -- but from the doorway
that was right next to the windows, I went to a stairwell that
went down to the lower area of the building and to the street.
Q. Is this the -- the front of this photo, is this the plaza
area that you talked about that you could see from your window?
A. Yes. My window would have been right here. Well, no, I'm
on seven, so it would be the one above it. Eight.
Q. Now, where did you take Mr. Cook?
A. Excuse me. Mr. -- I took Mr. Cook down the stairwell, down
to the street, which is on Harvey.
Q. Did he receive medical attention?
A. When I got him down there, I laid him on the sidewalk; and
a policeman ran up, and I told him that he needed medical
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attention. And he ran back to his car to get blankets to cover
Mr. Cook.
Q. All right. Let me show you another photo. This is
Government's Exhibit 1004. You recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a close-up of the plaza?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, Government offers 1004.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 1004 is received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, after you left Mr. Cook with the police officer, what
did you do, Mrs. Hunt?
A. I came back up the same stairwell, and I went back to the
door that I had come out of. I went in for a few minutes, but
seeing rubble, I could not get through. I came back out and
started back towards the front of the plaza.
Q. Did you see anyone from HUD as you were coming back onto
the plaza?
A. When I came back out on the plaza, I heard someone that I
know to be V. Z. Lawton, and he was -- worked for ONAP, and I
also saw Ken Altizer. He was our economist on the eighth
floor, and they were supporting a blond-headed lady that was
injured.
Q. Who was that?
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A. That was Ruth Hill that I had seen earlier.
Q. And what happened to Miss Hill?
A. They gave Ruth to me to take her to the triage. They
had -- there had started to be some medical personnel kind of
setting up a triage on the 4th Street by that point. And Ruth
didn't -- wasn't sure who I was, but she recognized my voice
and said, "Susan, I know that's you, but I can't see you." And
I looked at her and saw that she had lost a eye, and I told her
to just come with me, that I would help her to the curb, and I
did.
Q. You took her to the triage?
A. Yeah. I sat with her because she was bleeding real bad,
and I held her neck and waited for -- in triage for someone to
help her.
Q. And did they come and help her?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did she survive the bombing?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. And what did you do after she received medical treatment?
A. I went back up to the plaza. There were ledges around that
were decorative, and a bunch of HUD employees had gathered
there, and we all started throwing out information, what HUD
employee we had seen go to the hospital, what employee we saw
that was one of the walking wounded like we were, who we knew
not to be in the building.
Susan Hunt - Direct
Q. Did you think it was part of your responsibility to
determine where your HUD employees were and their condition?
A. As the administrative officer, it was my job to take care
of these people.
Q. Did you do that on that day?
A. I tried to.
Q. What did you do that day to determine the location of each
HUD employee?
A. We tried to -- all of us just kept looking in the crowds
and around, but it became obvious that we were not going to be
able to keep up with 124 names unless we had something to write
on. So Bob Chumard, although he was worried about his wife
that was in the building -- Bob Chumard went down to a
building -- or told me he would run down Robinson and try to
find somebody that would give him paper and a pen so that we
could list the names.
Q. While he was gone, what happened?
A. While he was gone, it was pretty chaotic. We had a lot of
people running, looking for people. I think that's when Sheila
Schick came up to -- and it's real hard to know the sequence to
keep it clear in my mind. But Sheila Schick was our computer
specialist, and she had run up to me and told me that Michael
Reyes was injured and would I go hunt for his father.
Q. Now, who was Michael Reyes?
A. Michael Reyes was . . . he worked in Single Family Housing
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on the seventh floor, and he -- his father worked in Fair
Housing and Equal Opportunity. So Mike had fallen from the
seventh floor to the third and was still alive, but Sheila
wanted me to find his dad so that Tony would know what hospital
he went to.
Q. So what was his father's name?
A. Tony Reyes.
Q. And where -- where was his office located?
A. Tony Reyes's office was located at the windows just next to
legal department on the northeast corner of the Alfred P.
Murrah.
Q. So what did you do?
A. I ran down the stairs towards the 4th Street, Robinson
corner.
Q. When you came around the corner, did you see the parking
lot across the street from the Murrah Building?
A. Not at that point. I ran through the crowds. Not until I
got up to 5th Street and Robinson.
Q. What did you notice?
A. At that point I saw fire -- cars on fire and a police --
and a fireman in the parking lot.
Q. Okay. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 964. If you
can take a look at your screen. You recognize that photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that depict what you just described?
Susan Hunt - Direct
A. Yes, ma'am, it does.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we move to admit
Government's Exhibit 964.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. 964 may be published.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Miss Hunt, tell the jury what you saw that day and what's
depicted in this photograph.
A. There were firemen. We could hear sirens. The sirens had
been blowing for a long time. It sounded like every police and
fire engine in Oklahoma City was coming. But firemen were
trying to put the fire out in all the cars. There were three
parking lots across the street just north of the Alfred P.
Murrah Building, and the cars were all on fire.
Q. At this point had you seen the front of the Murrah
Building?
A. No, I had not.
Q. What did you see next?
A. I turned and saw that the front of the building had
disappeared, that it appeared to be in rubble all in front of
the building and in the building, and there was no more windows
or it didn't look like I had known the building to look.
Q. All right. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 957. You
recognize that photograph?
Susan Hunt - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what you saw that morning?
A. That is what I saw.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we move for the admission
of 957.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be published.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Miss Hunt, is this what you saw as you rounded the corner?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And did you look for Mr. Reyes's office at that point?
A. No. Because when I saw the building, I knew it was a
futile effort.
Q. Can you tell us where Mr. Reyes's office was located? Can
you mark with your pen -- or would have been located before the
bombing?
A. It would be the seventh floor just right here.
Q. At that point what did you do, Mrs. Hunt?
A. At that point I ran back to the side of the Murrah
Building, to the east side. There was a stairwell. Instead of
going all the way back to the 4th Street stairwell, I went up a
small staircase and came adjacent to the building. And when I
got at the back on the plaza, I heard something above me, and I
looked up and saw two HUD employees.
Q. Who did you see?
Susan Hunt - Direct
A. I saw Rhonda Griffin and I saw Glenda Riley.
Q. Where were they?
A. They were on the -- appeared to be at a ledge on the
seventh floor, and they were needing help to get out.
Q. Take a look at Government's Exhibit 1017. Do you recognize
that photograph?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And does that depict the two ladies you just described?
A. Yes. This is Glenda Riley. And this is Rhonda Griffin.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we move for the admission
of 1017.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. 1017 may be published.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, Miss Hunt, could you tell the jury who's depicted in
this photograph?
A. Yes. Rhonda Griffin is the lady in the bluer color. My
pen isn't working.
Q. Which lady has her hand to her mouth?
A. That, Glenda Riley.
Q. Okay. And who's next to her?
A. Rhonda Griffin.
Q. What floor were they on when this photograph was taken?
A. They were on the seventh floor.
Q. Was that where they had offices?
Susan Hunt - Direct
A. Yes. They officed on the plaza side of the building up
against the glass.
Q. Were they later rescued from the building?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. And they survived the bombing?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Now, back on the plaza, did you work with other HUD
employees on the list of names and the locations of the
personnel who worked for you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did Mr. Chumard return with a piece of paper?
A. Bob had gone down to an office, and he brought back a piece
of paper and a pen. And we stood together on the plaza; and if
one HUD employee left, another one would come. Calvin Mosher
was there helping, Sonya Key, Robert Roddy, several HUD
employees; and if they went to help someone, another one would
come up; and we started making a list.
Q. Did you keep that list?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
Q. Did you turn it over to the FBI after the bombing?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 955. Do you recognize
that?
A. I can't see it.
Now, yes. That's the list I made. It's in my
Susan Hunt - Direct
handwriting.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer 955.
MR. TIGAR: I have no objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 955's received and may be
published.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, Miss Hunt, we're not going to go down the list for
every name, but I want you to tell the jury briefly starting on
the left-hand of this document, what these three categories
indicate.
A. Hospital. If we saw someone that was injured and was taken
to the hospital, we tried to list their names under the heading
hospital.
Q. And then what's the next column there?
A. The next one was okay. That was not necessarily that they
weren't injured, but they were like me, that they were able to
get around because there were -- those of us that had injuries
that left us mobile, we did not go to the hospital.
Q. And do the checks indicate that you're sure that this is
the location of these people or the condition of these people?
A. Yes.
Q. What's the final column on the right-hand side?
A. The final column was unknown. These were the people
that -- 12 of them were the people I saw, so I knew for sure
that they were in the building. Others were people that we --
Susan Hunt - Direct
other HUD employees knew were in the building --
Q. When you say "in the building," you mean you knew they were
present before 9:02 in the Murrah Building; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And now you don't know where they are at the time you were
making the list?
A. Right. No one had seen them.
Q. There are a few names crossed out here. Why are those
names crossed out?
A. Well, in making our list, of course we were upset. And we
would write someone's name down and then someone would tell us
that they had found them or they knew that they were not there.
Some of our people were in Washington, D.C., and we had their
names down. We marked them off when we knew that they were
accounted for.
Q. Did you determine how many people in HUD died in the
bombing that day?
A. 35.
Q. Do you recall being on the plaza when other people tried to
enter the Murrah Building that day?
A. Yes. I did -- I was. There were parents that were trying
to get in. The police and the -- the police and the firemen
had asked us, as we were standing there, because we didn't
stand one solid time making this list. We were all scurrying
around, trying to see what HUD employees we could see.
Susan Hunt - Direct
Q. Were you told not to let anyone back into the building?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did you have to stop someone from going back into the
building?
A. Yes. Two young people, young women, were hysterical and
trying to get in. They wanted to get in the day care. One of
them said that her baby was in the day care.
MR. TIGAR: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did you know who that person was at the time?
A. It's --
Q. Did you know who that person was at that time?
A. I did not.
Q. Now, eventually did you go home that evening?
A. Yes. I did. We had a bomb scare, and they ran us down the
Harvey Street, and we kept being pushed further and further
away. We got to the parking garage at Harvey and Main Street,
and we finally found someone that had a phone that would let us
use it, and we asked a family member to come get us.
Q. All right. When you got home, did you continue to talk to
other people from HUD to determine where people were and their
condition?
A. Yes. Soon after I got home, the phone started ringing. I
had people from Washington and from Fort Worth regional office
Susan Hunt - Direct
and other HUD employees and family members calling, knowing
that I was kind of the central -- there were a lot of
supervisors that couldn't be accounted for at that time. So I
was the prime one for them to call. And I never hung up from
one until call waiting would beep in another.
Q. Did you also call your superiors in Washington and in the
regional office to report on the status of HUD employees?
A. Yes. I had called from the attorney's office, the regional
office, and told them at that point I thought there were 46
unaccounted for.
Q. Did you go to work the next day, Miss Hunt?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went to -- we had -- didn't have a office to go to, so we
set up -- because we are affiliated with Oklahoma housing
authorities, the Oklahoma Housing Authority on N.E. 4th opened
their doors to us and allowed us to set up a command center.
Q. Were you able to engage in the business of HUD that day?
A. No. We had lost all of our people, all of our -- I mean it
was -- we had no paper, no pencil, no computers, nothing. All
we could do is try to account for each other.
Q. How many supervisors were lost in the bombing?
A. There were approximately 14 in the staff meetings each
Monday. And of that 14, nine were missing.
Q. Now, Miss Hunt, before coming to court today, did you
Susan Hunt - Direct
determine which divisions lost what number of employees and how
many years of HUD employment experience was lost due to the
bombing?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 2058. Do
you recognize that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And is this one of the charts that you created?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we would move for the
series of 2058, 1 through 8, to be admitted.
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor, relevance.
THE COURT: I don't know what we're talking about
here.
MS. WILKINSON: This is a list of the divisions and
the loss, the interruption of services to HUD, your Honor,
broken down by each division and the employees' experience.
THE COURT: All right. So this is showing the effects
on the agency.
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Well, then it's subject to our continuing
objection.
THE COURT: Yes. So that objection is overruled and
will be shown to continue. You may proceed with this exhibit.
How's it marked?
Susan Hunt - Direct
MS. WILKINSON: It's 2058, 1 through 8, your Honor.
It's a series.
THE COURT: Received.
MS. WILKINSON: This is No. 2.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Briefly, Miss Hunt, does this show the Office of Inspector
General, Investigation?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. What does it show?
A. There was one employee killed. There was a hundred percent
loss of that division. There were two years of HUD experience
lost.
Q. Let's move on to the legal division.
A. The legal division, there were five employees killed, which
was 100 percent loss. 58 years of HUD experience was lost.
Q. Please tell the jury how the Housing Division was affected.
A. The Housing Division, 13 employees were killed, which was
24.5 percent loss, 164 years of HUD experience lost.
Q. What about the effect on the Fair Housing Division?
A. Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity lost two employees.
That was 50 percent of the division or 32 years of HUD
experience lost.
Q. How was the Community Planning Division affected by the
bombing?
A. There were three employees killed. That was a 60 percent
Susan Hunt - Direct
loss of personnel and 47 years of HUD experience lost.
Q. You had a Public Housing Division; is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How were they affected by the bombing?
A. Public Housing lost six employees, 54.5 percent loss, which
was 92 years of HUD experience.
Q. And you've talked quite a bit about the Native American
Programs Division. How were they affected?
A. Native American Programs lost five employees. That was a
25 percent loss of personnel, which was 93 years of HUD
experience lost.
Q. Miss Hunt, did you calculate the total loss to HUD in
Oklahoma City as of April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Please tell the jury about that.
A. There were 124 employees that were assigned to the Murrah
Building. 35 of our employees died. That's 28 percent of the
agency or 488 years of experience. There's been 14 people
since the bombing that are unable to work, which is 11 percent
of the agency, additional 185 years of experience, which is a
total of 673 years' experience lost because of bombing.
Q. Now, before coming to court today, did you review a series
of photographs of the 35 HUD employees who died that day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And could you identify those individuals and tell the jury
Susan Hunt - Direct
briefly what their responsibilities were for the HUD.
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd move for the
admission of Government's Exhibit 1129.
THE COURT: With the same continuing objections.
Overruled.
MS. WILKINSON: May Agent Tongate step forward to put
the charts up?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
THE COURT: This is 1129?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Can you see all those photographs, Miss Hunt?
A. Yes, I can.
MS. WILKINSON: Can everyone on the jury see those
photographs?
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay. Could you start at the left hand and tell us just
briefly the name of the individual --
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may she step down?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Miss Hunt, just keep your voice up please and turn toward
Susan Hunt - Direct
the jury so they can see you.
A. Okay. Ted Allen. He was acting director of Community
Planning and Development.
Q. Who was -- go ahead.
A. Diane Althouse. Diane was a realty clerk for Single Family
Asset Management.
Peter Avillanoza was director of Fair Housing and
Equal Opportunity.
Andrea Blanton was a realty clerk for mortgage credit,
Single Family Housing.
Paul Broxterman was the OIG investigator.
Dave Burkett was in Community Planning and
Development, Native American Programs.
Don Burns was construction analyst for Native American
Programs.
Kim Clark was the assistant legal assistant for the
legal department.
Kim Cousins was a realty clerk in the property
disposition or REO Single Family Housing.
Diana Day was a housing specialist for Public Housing.
Castine Deveroux was a realty specialist in mortgage
credit, Single Family Housing.
Susan Ferrell was an attorney for HUD in the legal
department.
Q. Miss Hunt, while Mr. Tongate is getting the second chart,
Susan Hunt - Direct
did you know all of those employees while they worked at HUD?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Could you please continue with the next chart.
A. Judy Fisher was a realty clerk for Single Family Housing.
Linda Florence was secretary for the REO department,
Single Family Housing.
Colleen Guiles; Colleen was the underwriter for Single
Family Housing.
Gene Hodges was the acting director of Valuation, a
branch of Single Family and Multi Family Housing.
George Howard was with Native American Programs,
Community Planning and Development.
Ann Kreymborg. Ann was a realty clerk for Asset
Management, Single Family Housing.
Q. Miss Hunt, could you just keep your voice up a little bit
harder. The court reporter is also trying to record you.
A. I'm sorry.
Q. That's okay.
A. Teresa Lauderdale was secretary to the director of Housing.
Jim McCarthy was the director of Housing.
Betsy McGonnell was a realty clerk in Single Family
Asset Management, Single Family Housing.
Trish Nix was a housing specialist in Public Housing.
Terry Rees was a housing specialist in Public Housing.
And Mary Rentie was a housing specialist in Public
Susan Hunt - Direct
Housing. Mary was actually the chief of one of the branches.
Q. Miss Hunt, would you like a drink of water?
A. Please.
Tony Reyes was a housing specialist for Fair Housing
and Equal Opportunity.
Lanny Scroggins was a construction analyst for Native
American Programs.
Lee Sells was secretary to the legal department.
John Stewart was chief of one of the branches of
Public Housing.
Jules Valdez was a supervisor, Community Planning and
Development in Native American Programs.
John Vaness. John was the appraiser, Single Family
and Valuation.
Dave Walker was the environmentalist.
Mike Weaver was the attorney in the legal division.
Jo Ann Whittenberg was secretary to Public Housing
director.
Fran Williams was secretary to the Community Planning
and Development director.
And Clarence Wilson was the chief counsel of HUD in
Oklahoma City.
Q. I just have one other question, Miss Hunt. Before you came
to court today, did you affix the names of each of the HUD
employees who died on April 19 onto a floor plan so you could
Susan Hunt - Direct
show where those people were before the time of the bombing?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we're not going to display
it; we'd just like to move into evidence. It's Government's
Exhibit 952B.
THE COURT: With the continuing objection being the
only one?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
THE COURT: It's received, 952B.
MS. WILKINSON: I have no further questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: I think we'll recess before the
cross-examination.
You may step down, Ms. Hunt. We'll have you back in
20 minutes.
Members of the jury, we'll be taking now our morning
recess; and of course, during the time of this recess, I ask of
you that you not discuss the case or any part of it among
yourselves or, of course, with anyone else. You won't be
seeing anyone else; but it is important for you to recognize,
as I'm sure you do, but also I must repeat for the record, the
importance of keeping open minds, recognizing that we're just
beginning the evidence in the case and that of course it is a
natural tendency for all of us when we're together in a matter
like this to -- and I'm speaking of you as jurors of course --
to talk about -- want to talk about with the other jurors what
you've seen and heard so far in connection with the case. And,
of course, you know that you must not do that. The law
requires of you that you maintain open minds until you've heard
it all. So while that is a difficult thing to do and which is
really contrary to human nature, still and all, you must do it.
That's a part of your obligation as jurors.
Also, you know, I can't tell you as each witness comes
on here what that witness means to -- and the testimony of that
witness means to the overall case; but I do ask of you as we
are proceeding with witnesses who were in Oklahoma City and who
were there at the time of this explosion and who testify about
things that have some emotional content to them to please
recognize the limitations of this evidence, what it's being
offered for.
For example, with this witness who has testified about
how many years of experience, and so forth, are lost here, the
purpose of that is, as you will learn ultimately in the case,
with respect to one of the charges in this indictment, the
effects on the operations of the government may be considered;
so that's why this evidence is coming in. But of course, you
know, this is a case in which a lot of this evidence that you
will be hearing from people who experienced directly the
immediate impacts of this explosion, it's -- you have to
consider it and not consider the emotions of it. And you will
be hearing more from these people who were there and who did
experience injuries and saw death. Please understand the
importance of putting that in perspective.
Now, also, at this and all other recesses, of course,
you must avoid anything outside of their evidence, continuing
to recognize that what may be in newspapers, magazines,
publications of all kinds are not something that you can take
into consideration in your decisions to be made. I'm sure
you'll understand that and cooperate with us.
We're going to take a 20-minute recess. You're
excused now from the courtroom for that time.
(Jury out at 10:23 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. We'll be in recess, 20
minutes.
(Recess at 10:24 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, could we have this covered
while I'm cross-examining? I think it --
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Sure.
MR. TIGAR: I'm not real interesting at the best of
times, your Honor; but with that distraction --
THE COURT: All right. Just cover it up.
(Jury in at 10:46 a.m.)
THE COURT: Let's get the witness.
If you'll resume the stand, please, Mrs. Hunt.
Mr. Tigar, you may inquire.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good morning, ma'am.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar, and I'm one of the lawyers that's
been appointed to help Terry Nichols.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And I wonder if you could just answer for me a few
questions about what you saw from the time the bomb went off
until the time that you all had to move down the street because
of that second bomb scare.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. That period of time. About -- do you remember about what
time it was that that second, you know -- the bomb scare
happened?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Okay. But whenever it was, the officers told you to move
off from the area where you were, and you did have to leave the
area of the Murrah Building; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So I'm going to put up on here what's been received
Susan Hunt - Cross
in evidence as Government's Exhibit 949A. It's a chart of the
map of the area there. And do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. Let me zoom in a little.
When you told us -- you left the building by what's
called the plaza area on this map; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then did you move across and go north on Harvey Avenue?
A. No.
Q. Okay. How did you go -- well --
A. When?
Q. I'm sorry. When you first came out of the building. You
told us --
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Okay?
A. That's true.
Q. Did there come a time when you got to this parking lot
that's on N.W. 5th Street here?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you remind me, please, how it was that you walked
around there?
A. I was about right here, and I went down the stairwell and
this way.
Q. I see. So you went up Robinson Avenue to get to it?
A. Yes, sir.
Susan Hunt - Cross
Q. All right. Thank you. And I know that -- I guess those
details will never leave your mind, will they?
A. No.
Q. I'm going to put up now what's been received in evidence as
Government's Exhibit 1004. You saw that during your direct
examination.
And this is the plaza area; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you would have gone out towards the lower right of that
picture. Is that right? Looking at that?
A. Actually, I came around this way.
Q. I see. All right. Down right at the bottom where those
steps are; is that right?
A. We were standing in this area.
Q. Okay. And that picture was taken, was it not, shortly
after the bomb exploded; correct?
A. By the debris, it appears so.
Q. Right. Because you notice that the flag is at full staff;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you can see a shadow, and the shadow from the flagpole
is in a westerly direction, as though the sun were to the east.
Is that --
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now I'd like to show you 954, which has been
Susan Hunt - Cross
received in evidence. That's another picture.
Now, do you know when this picture was taken?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Now, if we can look for some clues here on the picture, if
you could help me, it appears that the flag on the flagpole is
at half staff. Can you see that?
A. I can't see it.
Q. All right. It does appear that there are construction
vehicles around here in this area in the parking lot and a
Quonset hut, and so on. You see that on Robinson there?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, that Quonset hut -- and so that would have been set up
after the bomb; right? That wasn't -- well, I -- I got ahead
of myself. That wasn't usually on Robinson Street before the
bombing, was it, the Quonset hut?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Finally, I'd like you to look at this picture, which
is 964. It's been received in evidence. And you described
that as the scene that you had witnessed, or something like it,
in that parking lot across the street from the Murrah Building.
Correct?
A. Right.
Q. And when you got there, did you -- had the firefighters
already arrived when you came around the corner?
A. There was a firefighter.
Susan Hunt - Cross
Q. Okay. And had they laid their hoses out?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Okay.
A. I'm sorry.
Q. Please, I'm -- I'm not here to quarrel with you. You
understand how important this is because you were -- you were
on the scene.
A. Sure.
Q. And we need to get as much detail as we can. Okay.
Would you look at the picture and see at the bottom
there if you can tell if that is a fire hose stretched out
there, if that refreshes your recollection as to what you saw
by that firefighter?
A. It looks like it could be.
Q. Okay. Now, as you saw the firefighters there, were they
attacking those car fires with anything other than their water
out of their fire hoses? Did you see them using other kinds of
equipment, and so on?
A. No. My focus was on finding my people.
Q. I understand. I understand. And the problem of trying to
find your people was made more difficult by all of this smoke
that was going on from all of these fires. Is that fair to
say?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you happen to -- did you notice the crater, the big
Susan Hunt - Cross
hole that was in the front of the Murrah Building?
A. I didn't -- I didn't.
Q. You didn't pay -- I understand.
A. I was probably in shock like everybody else.
Q. I understand. I understand.
A. I didn't.
MR. TIGAR: All right. Well, I want to thank you very
much for sharing these details with us. I thank you very much.
I don't have any further questions of the witness,
your Honor.
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson, any follow-up?
MS. WILKINSON: None, and she's dismissed, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Of course, your Honor, the witness may be
excused.
THE COURT: You may step down. You are now excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: The United States will call James
Elliott. Ms. Wilkinson will question.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(James Elliott affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you state your full name
for the record and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: James F. Elliott, E-L-L-I-O-T-T.
THE COURT: Proceed, yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Elliott, where were you employed until very recently?
A. Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Q. Did you just retire?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. When did you retire?
A. August 1.
Q. And how many years did you work for the FBI?
A. 32 years.
Q. What was your job at the FBI?
A. I was a special agent.
Q. And can you tell us where you were born?
A. McAlester, Oklahoma.
Q. Have you lived there most of your life?
A. A portion.
Q. And where were you stationed with the FBI before you
retired?
A. McAlester, Oklahoma.
Q. And did there come a time when you were assigned to the
Task Force investigating the Oklahoma City bombing?
A. Yes, ma'am.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. When did you get assigned to the Task Force?
A. I was assigned to the Task Force actually from April 19,
1995, but on a full-time basis from August, 1995.
Q. Okay. Now, you told us at that time you were assigned to
McAlester; is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What type of office is -- does the FBI have in McAlester,
Oklahoma?
A. We have a resident agency.
Q. What is a resident agency?
A. A resident agency is essentially a sub office from a
headquarters office, in this case Oklahoma City, which -- and
from the resident agency, we handle violations assigned to the
FBI in a specific geographical area.
Q. Does that mean you handle all types of investigations
conducted by the FBI?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What type of investigations have you worked on during your
career?
A. During my career, I've worked reactive crimes such as auto
theft, bank robbery, white-collar crime, drugs, civil rights.
Q. When you worked on stolen car cases and those type of
cases, did you become familiar with vehicles and vehicle
identification numbers?
A. Yes, ma'am.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. During your career with the FBI, were you ever assigned to
the Oklahoma City office?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. When was that?
A. From July, 1966, to I think November of 1977.
Q. Were there other times during your career when you worked
or did investigations in the Oklahoma City area?
A. Yes, ma'am. From -- from 1966 to 1977 and then from 19 --
November of 1977 till March of 1978, I was assigned to the
Enid, Oklahoma, resident agency; and the seat of the courts is
Oklahoma City.
Q. During your tenure as an FBI agent, did you become familiar
with the downtown Oklahoma City area?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, when you were with the FBI, did you have any
specialized responsibilities?
A. Yes, ma'am. I was part of the Evidence Response Team.
Q. What is an evidence response team?
A. Evidence Response Team is a group which goes to major crime
scenes, collects evidence.
Q. And did you have any type of special training?
A. Yes, ma'am. There is an 80-hour course.
Q. Had you completed that prior to the bombing?
A. Approximately six weeks prior.
Q. Now, turning your attention to April 19, 1995, where were
James Elliott - Direct
you that morning?
A. I was in my office in McAlester, Oklahoma.
Q. And what did you do when you heard about the bombing?
A. I initially tried to call the Oklahoma City office but
could not get through. I then went downstairs to my car,
turned on the car radio, and determined there had been an
explosion of undetermined origin at that point at the federal
building in Oklahoma City.
I assumed that the Evidence Response Team would be
called; so I went to my residence, got my clothing, went back
to my office, picked up crime-scene kit and cameras; and at
that point there was a message on my answering machine to
respond to Oklahoma City.
Q. What type of clothing did you go get when you went home?
A. Utility clothing, military-type battle-dress uniform.
Q. What type of shoes?
A. Boots.
Q. And what type of equipment did you pick up from your
office?
A. I picked up crime-scene equipment, fingerprinting-type
equipment, containers for evidence collection, tools to remove
evidence.
Q. Were all --
A. And my camera.
Q. Excuse me. Were all of these items new?
James Elliott - Direct
A. Yes, they were.
Q. They had never been used before?
A. Never have.
Q. Were your boots clean?
A. Boots were clean, yes.
Q. Did you leave immediately thereafter?
A. Yes. I left, I would estimate, at about 10:15 to 10:30.
Q. Approximately what time did you arrive in downtown Oklahoma
City?
A. Arrived in downtown Oklahoma City somewhere between 12:30
and 12:45.
Q. What did you see when you arrived?
A. I saw a great deal of devastation.
Q. Did you notice what was on the streets?
A. It was debris. Yes. That was --
Q. What type of debris?
A. Well, there was a great deal of debris. Building debris.
Rock, metal.
Q. Did you see any glass?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Now, where did you go when you got to the downtown area?
A. I reported to our mobile command center, which was located
at 8th and Harvey, I believe.
Q. What is a mobile command center?
A. A mobile command center is a motor home which has telephone
James Elliott - Direct
lines and radio equipment installed.
Q. What was the purpose of that mobile command center at that
time?
A. Well, to maintain contact with the agents who were
responding to the scene.
Q. Did you have any difficulty in getting access to the
command post?
A. I went through several checkpoints.
Q. Now, once you arrived at the crime scene on April 19, 1995,
did you stay in Oklahoma City over the next few weeks?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What were your general duties and responsibilities?
A. I was assigned after the first day or actually on the first
day to assist in the coordination of the collection of the
physical evidence.
Q. And what did you do in that capacity? What did you do on a
day-to-day basis?
A. On a day-to-day basis, I would report to our evidence
collection center, assist in the -- in categorizing and storing
evidence. I was also assigned as liaison with the property
room of the Oklahoma City Police Department as well as the
on-scene rescue command post for the fire department.
Q. Now, what is an Evidence Control Center?
A. Evidence Control Center is a point where we enter the
evidence as it is brought to us, after it is collected, place
James Elliott - Direct
it -- categorize it and store it.
Q. Is it a secure location?
A. It is very secure.
Q. Tell us how.
A. The building was alarmed. During working hours, there were
six to seven people there. At night it was -- the alarm was
set, and the Oklahoma City Police Department maintained
heightened surveillance on that area.
Q. Now, as part of your responsibilities of managing the
Evidence Control Center, did you have an opportunity to walk
through the crime scene?
A. Yes, ma'am. Daily.
Q. And during that time, did you become familiar with the
streets and buildings and the damage that had occurred due to
the bombing?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you observe the damage to the Murrah Building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you observe the damage to the surrounding buildings?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How large was the area damaged by the explosion on
April 19?
A. I would estimate about 16 blocks.
Q. Did you walk all of those blocks?
A. Not all of them.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. Was evidence recovered from virtually all those blocks?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, during the course of this investigation, did you and
others create a model of the downtown Oklahoma City area?
A. Yes.
Q. How was that model created?
A. The model was created by individuals from our headquarters
in Washington, D.C., Special Projects Unit, who came to
Oklahoma City after the bombing -- I think the day after --
made exact measurements of downtown Oklahoma City and of the
building and created -- buildings, rather -- and created a
model from scale -- or to scale.
Q. Have you examined the model that was constructed prior to
coming to court today?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Is it a fair and accurate representation of downtown
Oklahoma City shortly after the bombing?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we would move for the
admission of Government's Exhibit 642 as a demonstrative
exhibit.
MR. WOODS: There is no objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 642 is received as a
demonstrative exhibit.
Members of the jury, that means to illustrate
James Elliott - Direct
testimony, as opposed to being an exhibit which in itself is
evidence.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may the witness step down
so he can point out the model to the jury?
THE COURT: Yes, he may.
You may need a microphone there.
MS. WILKINSON: Mr. Elliott, do you need a microphone,
or can you keep your voice up?
THE WITNESS: I'll try to talk loudly.
THE COURT: It may be that members of the jury in the
back row or next have trouble seeing that. If you want to
stand up, you can feel free to do that.
MS. WILKINSON: Let me hand you a pointer.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may I stand over here?
THE COURT: You may. Sure.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. If you can tell the members of the jury starting with the
legend what this model depicts.
A. This model depicts downtown Oklahoma City from
approximately the Santa Fe tracks, which would be at the east
side of Oklahoma City, to Hudson Avenue on the west. The
Murrah Building is located in the middle. Its direction is
north, east, west, and south.
There are dots on the model. These dots demonstrate
positions where pieces of truck, which are yellow -- I'm
James Elliott - Direct
sorry -- yes, truck, which is yellow. Green are parts of the
box, the rear of the truck. Blue are plastic, and there is a
purple dot which depicts a sign across from the Murrah
Building.
Q. When you say blue for plastic, are you talking about
plastic fragments that were recovered at the crime scene?
A. Plastic fragments, yes.
Q. Let's start by orienting the jury.
A. This is N.W. 5th Street, which is one way to the east.
This is Robinson, which is one-way south.
Harvey, which is one-way north.
Broadway is a two-way street.
Q. Let's start down here.
A. All right.
Q. This building is what building?
A. This is the Regency Tower, which is a high-rise
apartment -- is and was a high-rise apartment building.
Q. Now, the jury heard testimony from Mr. Nichols who was
here. Can you show the jury how far the Regency Towers is from
the Murrah Building?
A. The Regency Tower is here. The Murrah Building is here.
Q. And if you were traveling from the Regency Tower to the
Murrah Building and you were following the traffic pattern,
which way would you go?
A. You would be traveling this direction, on a one-way street.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. This shows the Murrah Building intact. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And back here?
A. Is a courtyard area, which is actually the front of the
building.
Q. Let me remove this portion.
Does this depict the damage to the building and the
crater after the bombing at 9:02 on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And can you describe briefly for the jury what it depicts?
A. All right. It depicts -- if I may swing around here,
please.
Q. Sure.
A. It depicts the crater where the explosion occurred. The
collapsed part of the building collapsed back to this what
would actually be the front wall.
Q. Why don't I lift this up and then you can --
A. And then this whole area here collapsed into rubble
probably this high.
Q. Now, what about this yellow hole?
A. This yellow hole is a crater where the main force of the
explosion dug into the sand and concrete underneath.
Q. Mr. Elliott, what's across the street from the Murrah
Building?
A. Across the street was a parking lot. Directly behind this
James Elliott - Direct
parking lot is the Journal Record Building. Yes. The roof
from the Journal Record Building was taken off and laid down in
that parking lot.
Q. Caused by the explosion?
A. Caused by the explosion.
Q. What is this building right here?
A. This is the Athenia Building; and the Athenia Building also
sustained considerable damage, depicted by this portion of the
building being destroyed.
Q. What's next to the Athenian Building?
A. Next to the Athenia Building is the Water Resources
building, which also sustained a great deal of damage that's
not depicted here.
Q. When this model was constructed, were only these three
buildings, the federal building, the Athenian Building and the
Journal Record Building, depicted for damage?
A. That's correct.
Q. As we go along, could you explain if other buildings had
some damage?
A. Yes.
Q. We started with the Water Resources building.
A. Well, the Journal Record Building had extensive glass
breakage on this side.
The Water Resources building had pitting and debris --
shrapnel holes in the front of it as well as structural damage
James Elliott - Direct
inside.
Across from it is the U.S. Post Office, which
sustained a good deal of structural damage to the roof; however
it was still -- was used later as a rescue center.
Q. How about across 5th Street?
A. Across 5th Street was Saint Joseph's Rectory, which
sustained extensive structural damage and was later destroyed,
torn down.
Then we have the Regency Tower -- excuse me -- the
Firestone building, all of which sustained glass damage and
blast damage.
A garage behind the Regency Tower sustained blast
damage, structural damage, as did this Law Office Building
which was later torn down.
Q. All right. Let's go back across Robinson and over there --
A. Across Robinson is the Kirkpatrick Hotel, which sustained a
lot of shrapnel damage as well as glass breakage and structural
damage inside the building. A series of stores along here
suffered considerable amount of structural damage.
Q. When you say "along here," could you tell us --
A. Yes, I'm sorry. It actually fronts on 6th Street and is
directly behind the YMCA.
Office furnishings building which also sustained some
damage. This was an old -- I think at the time of the blast it
was empty, but it was an old car dealership which sustained
James Elliott - Direct
glass and some structural damage.
Q. And you're talking about a building that's on the alley?
A. It's on the alley.
Q. And 5th Street?
A. And the corner 5th and Broadway.
Q. What about Bentley Carpets?
A. Bentley Carpets sustained damage from shrapnel going
through the front of the building as well as some pockmarking
on the brick on the side. It's located on Broadway just south
of 5th Street.
Q. I think we didn't describe the YMCA.
A. We did not describe the YMCA. The YMCA suffered extensive
structural and glass damage. There was debris along the --
both the south side and the west side. I didn't go in the
interior, so I can't tell you what damage there appeared in the
interior; but from the outside, it appeared that there was a
good deal of damage inside.
Q. You can take your seat.
You told us, Mr. Elliott, that you arrived at the
command post sometime midday on April 19. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What happened when you got there?
A. I reported to the command post and asked them if they had
any assignment for me. They told me to stand by.
Q. And did you get an assignment?
James Elliott - Direct
A. Not long after that, I -- within minutes -- I encountered
FBI Agent Jim Norman, who gave me a number that he had taken
from a piece of debris and asked if I could identify this
number.
Q. Did he tell you the number, or did he write it down for
you?
A. He gave it to me and I wrote it down.
Q. What was the number that he initial --
A. He gave me 6.4PVA26077.
Q. Now, based on your training and experience, did you know
what that number indicated?
A. It indicated to me that -- the PVA26077 indicated to me it
was a confidential vehicle identification number.
Q. What did you do when you got that number from Agent Norman?
A. I called the National Crime Insurance Bureau in Dallas,
Texas, gave them that number so that it could be traced.
Q. You said you gave it to --
A. An employee there at the National Crime Insurance Bureau in
Dallas, Texas.
Q. And what is the National Crime Insurance Bureau?
A. The National Crime Insurance Bureau is an agency funded, to
my knowledge, principally by insurance companies, which
maintains records of all automobiles manufactured and sold
within the United States.
Q. Now, you gave them a series of numbers and letters that
James Elliott - Direct
were eight characters? Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. You believe that to be the confidential VIN number?
A. Appeared to be a confidential vehicle identification number
to me, yes.
Q. What is a confidential vehicle identification number?
A. Confidential Vehicle -- CVIN is an easier way to say it.
It's a number which is stamped at various places on hard parts
of a vehicle as it's being manufactured and is essentially
hidden from public view, so that should the vehicle be stolen
and the public vehicle identification number changed, the
vehicle can be traced.
Q. What is a public vehicle identification number?
A. The public vehicle identification number is a 17-digit
number which is displayed on most vehicles -- well, it's
displayed on all vehicles on the dashboard and on most vehicles
also on the driver's side post.
Q. Is a public VIN unique to each car or truck manufactured in
the United States?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is the confidential VIN also unique to each car or
truck manufactured in the United States?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Does the confidential VIN relate in any way to the VIN?
A. The confidential vehicle identification number are the last
James Elliott - Direct
eight characters of the public vehicle identification number.
Q. Does that include the sequential numbers as the vehicle
comes off the assembly line?
A. In this case, the last five numbers are the sequential
production numbers.
Q. Is it common practice in your investigations to use a
confidential vehicle identification number to determine the
public vehicle identification number of a car or truck?
A. It's very common.
Q. Now, once you called into the National Insurance Crime
Bureau, what did you do?
A. I then went down to the place where Mr. Norman had told me
he had seen this truck part, because the 6.4 didn't make sense
to me. I did not believe it was part of the confidential
vehicle identification number, and I wanted to verify the
number.
Q. Where did you go to look for this truck part?
A. I went directly in front of the Regency Tower Apartments.
Q. What did you see when you got there?
A. I saw a rear axle -- what appeared to me to be a rear-axle
housing lying in the street next to a red Ford Festiva.
Q. Okay. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 631, which I
believe has been previously moved into evidence.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Do you recognize that photograph?
James Elliott - Direct
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What did you see when you came down to the Regency Tower
and if you --
A. I actually approached the Regency Tower from the direction
this photograph shows from the east. And this photograph is to
the west, but I saw this rear-axle housing in the 5th Street
next to this red Ford Festiva.
Q. And did you cause someone to take photographs, close-up
photographs of this rear-axle housing?
A. I didn't actually cause it, but it was done, yes.
Q. And have you reviewed those photographs --
A. Yes, I have.
Q. -- prior to coming to court today?
Let me show you what's been marked as Government's
Exhibit 635.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a closeup --
A. That is a close-up photograph of the rear-axle housing that
I saw on April 19.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we move for the admission
of 635.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. 635 may be shown.
James Elliott - Direct
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Tell the jury what they're seeing from this angle.
A. From this angle, they're seeing the -- there is a dot down
here. They're seeing the Ford -- or the rear-axle housing and
a portion of the bumper of the Ford Festiva.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, this other television, we
turned off during the break to move it. It's not on again. I
wonder if I can just go on up and turn it on.
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. WILKINSON: If I can do it.
Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, can you just use your pen, and see that little bump
there in the middle on the rear-axle housing?
A. Right here?
Q. Yes. What is that?
A. This is the area -- well, that's a little low.
This is the area where the confidential vehicle
identification number would be located.
Q. Okay. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 636.
A. Whoops. Okay.
Q. You recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that?
A. Well, that is the confidential vehicle indication number.
James Elliott - Direct
It is upside down.
Q. Okay. But that's a closeup of that number?
A. That is a closeup of the confidential VIN located on that
rear-axle housing.
Q. And is that what you saw on April 19, 1995?
A. That's exactly what I saw as I saw it.
MS. WILKINSON: We'd move for the admission of
Government's 636.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Elliott, with your pen can you try and circle for the
jury the number that you saw that day.
A. Here we go. Okay.
Q. Now, do you see the other number that Agent Norman gave
you?
A. I -- really, I don't on here.
Q. Did you see it that day?
A. I saw it that day, yes.
Q. Okay. Now, what did you do once you saw this confidential
VIN number on the rear-axle housing?
A. As soon as I saw that, I received a radio message that I
had a telephone call awaiting at the command post. I returned
to the command post and talked -- well, actually, called back
that number, which was the National Crime Insurance Bureau in
James Elliott - Direct
Dallas.
Q. Was the rear-axle housing that you saw that day taken into
custody by the FBI?
A. Yes. It was under guard.
Q. And have you reviewed that item before coming to court
today?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may I move the exhibit so
Mr. Elliott can examine it?
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Elliott, could you step down, please.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, is the rear-axle housing that you saw that day on
April 19, 1995, in front of the Regency Tower underneath this
cover?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd move into admission
Government's Exhibit 630.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 630 is received. Display it.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Elliott, is this the rear-axle housing you saw that
day?
A. Yes, it is.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. Now, show the jury where the confidential VIN number is.
A. Confidential VIN number is right here, PVA26077.
To the left is a number 6.4. I don't know the
significance of 6.4.
Q. But it's not part --
A. It is not part of -- absolutely not part of the
confidential VIN.
Q. Okay. Now, can you describe to us what you saw that day in
terms of the condition of this rear-axle housing?
A. Well, it's exactly as it's shown here. It's ripped through
this housing here. The axle portion is severely twisted in
this direction. I don't know whether that's front or back,
frankly.
The other axle or wheel area is right here, and you
can see the bolts where the wheel would be attached.
Q. What about this piece of metal that's bent back this way?
A. That's a piece of the axle housing which is severely
twisted back toward the wheel.
Q. Go ahead and point that out.
A. Okay. This is the -- a piece of the -- of the axle housing
which is -- force of explosion, I would assume -- was forced
back toward the wheel.
Q. And was this the same condition it was in when you saw it
on April 19?
A. Exactly.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. Now, can you just show the jury on the model where you saw
Government's Exhibit 630.
A. Yes. It was located right here where this yellow dot --
Q. I'll move this back out of the way.
Go ahead.
A. Okay. Right here where the yellow dot is located in front
of the Regency Towers Apartments.
Q. Okay. You can take your seat, Mr. Elliott.
Mr. Elliott, did you calculate approximately how heavy
Government's Exhibit 630 is, the rear-axle housing?
A. I believe it's around 250 pounds.
Q. And how far did it travel that day from the Murrah Building
to get to the Regency Tower?
A. 575 feet.
Q. Now, once you found out that you had a phone call and you
had seen the rear-axle housing, what did you do?
A. I returned to the command post and called the National
Crime Insurance Bureau office in Dallas.
Q. Did they give you information about the identification of
the truck from which this rear-axle housing had come?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. What did you learn?
A. I learned the true vehicle identification number of the
vehicle; that it was registered to Ryder Rental, Incorporated,
in Miami, Florida, and was a current rental.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. Did they give you the public vehicle identification number?
A. Yes. Public number was F --
Q. Why don't we do it this way. Did they give you the entire
number?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did you turn it over to people in the command post?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did they use that to contact Ford and Ryder?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Okay. What else did you learn about the vehicle?
A. I learned that it had a gross vehicle weight of 19 to
26,000 pounds.
Q. What did you do with all of that information once you
received it?
A. I furnished it to the duty agent at the command post, who
in my presence called and gave that information to FBI
headquarters.
Q. Did you assume your other duties at that time?
A. Actually, at that point I had not been assigned any other
duties. I then went -- went outside to wait further
instructions and was assigned later in the day to work in the
Evidence Control Center.
Q. Did you go down to the location of the Evidence Control
Center?
A. Yes, I did, in the afternoon.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. Where was it located?
A. Located between Classen and Western on 4th Street.
Q. How far was this from the Murrah Building?
A. It's approximately eight blocks.
Q. What did you do after you went down to the Evidence Control
Center?
A. We started setting up computers, cleaned the floors, moved
some -- it was a facility that the FBI already owned or rented,
area, cleared out some evidence that had been there so we would
have room to store as evidence came in and set up bins, as they
were, on the floor so we could separate evidence.
Q. To your knowledge, had any ammonium nitrate ever been
stored in that area before then?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. And did you have segregated storage areas within that
facility?
A. They were segregated -- there were three different rooms
that we used. They were segregated to the extent in each room
that we essentially took masking tape or duct tape, actually,
on the floor and made bins so that we could trace where we
stored things.
Q. Did you control access to the Evidence Control Center?
A. It was strictly controlled.
Q. How did you control that?
A. Only a limited number of people -- well, to the Evidence
James Elliott - Direct
Control Center itself?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, to an extent. People would bring evidence in, and we
would allow them in a large common area; but no one but the
people employed in the Evidence Control Center were allowed in
the facility -- the places where we stored the evidence --
unless they signed in and had specific good reason to be there.
Q. So they could come to turn in evidence, but they couldn't
gain access to the actual evidence unless they had some
specific purpose for doing that. Is that right?
A. Exactly.
Q. And you kept track of the people who had access to that
center?
A. Absolutely.
Q. All right. Did you --
A. Well, actually, we kept a record of everyone who came into
the Evidence Control Center.
Q. And then further sign-in sheets?
A. And then further sign-in sheets in each room.
Q. Did you go back to the crime scene that afternoon or
evening?
A. Yes, I did. Around 6:30, I went back to the crime scene to
determine what, if any, evidence would be brought to us that
evening.
Q. And what did you find when you got back there?
James Elliott - Direct
A. I found they were clearing the area in front of the street,
actually, in front of the Murrah Building from about Hudson to
Broadway and along Robinson.
Q. What did you see? What did you see?
A. I saw agents picking up evidence.
Q. And did you --
A. Collecting evidence.
Q. Did you collect evidence that --
A. Yes, I did.
Q. From whom?
A. I saw two Oklahoma County auxiliary sheriffs at the corner
of the Athenia Building looking at a piece of twisted metal. I
stopped and examined that metal and saw that it contained what
appeared to be a Florida license tag. I seized it as evidence
and placed it in evidence in the Evidence Control Center.
Q. So you don't have to step down, let me point: This is the
Athenian Building. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Right here in front of the Murrah Building?
A. In front of the Murrah.
Q. Is this where you --
A. I can't actually see, but I assume -- it's the corner of
it.
Q. Right in front of that building?
A. Well, the southeast corner of the building.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to show you Government's Exhibit
637A. Have you seen this before?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. I recognize it from the twisted nature of the piece of
metal, a piece that I collected on April 19, 1995, in which the
Florida license was entrapped.
Q. Okay. There should be an envelope up there which should
have Government's Exhibit 637, a license plate. Do you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. When you found 637A, the piece in your hand, was the
license plate attached to it in some way?
A. It was trapped inside the twisted metal, yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Okay. Your Honor, we'd move for the
admission of Government's Exhibit 637 and 637A.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. You can set that back down, Mr. Elliott, if you want to put
it on the cover there.
You told us that when you first found those two
pieces, the license plate was trapped inside of the bumper; is
that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
James Elliott - Direct
Q. Is there a picture depicting that?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Take a look at your screen, Government's Exhibit 638. Do
you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a photograph of the license plate trapped in the
bumper as you've just described?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd move for the
admission of 638.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 638 is received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Elliott, tell the jury what they're seeing.
A. What they see is the piece that we just looked at. In it
is a portion, the only readable portion, of what appeared to be
a Florida license tag. You can see what appears to be a 26R.
Q. At a certain point, did you want to extract the license
plate so you could read the entire thing?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that?
A. We did that.
Q. Did you cause a photograph to be taken of that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 639.
James Elliott - Direct
MS. WILKINSON: Computer just went off.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: It did?
639 is not admitted.
MS. WILKINSON: I'm sorry.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Elliott, do you recognize that photograph as the one
you just described?
A. Yes, I do.
MS. WILKINSON: Move for the admission of 639.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Elliott, were you able to determine the full license
plate number from this license in this photograph?
A. Yes. It is NEE26R.
Q. What else is depicted in this photograph?
A. It's a Florida license which expires in December of 1995.
Q. Now, you were in Oklahoma City for all of April 19; is that
right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Do you recall it raining that evening?
A. Yes.
Q. And how hard did it rain?
A. Well, it rained several times. It started raining at
around 4 and rained moderately, and then later -- and I can't
James Elliott - Direct
recall what time -- it rained very hard.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Elliott.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I represent Terry Nichols.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You and I are acquainted; right?
A. Yes, we are.
Q. Even though we both joined the FBI in '65, we never served
with each other. Is that correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. Okay. Did you help the Special Projects Unit build this,
take the measurements?
A. I did not help them take the measurements, no, sir.
Q. Did you witness them take measurements to make sure it's to
scale?
A. I saw them out making measurements when I was out doing
work; but I did not assist them or -- nor was I with them when
they did it.
Q. Okay. But to your understanding, it is to scale; is that
correct?
James Elliott - Cross
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Okay. If you wouldn't mind just stepping down one minute.
Can you remove the Federal Building so the jury can
see the parking lot.
A. Sure.
Q. And can you give us an estimation about what the size of
that parking lot was?
A. Well, it's -- to this alley, it's a half a block in this
direction. I would say it's closer to two-thirds of a block in
this direction.
Q. Can you give us in feet?
A. Feet, I really can't.
Q. Okay. You got there about 12:30.
You can take your seat back.
You got to Oklahoma City about 12:30?
A. Yes.
Q. And you went down to the scene to the mobile command unit.
A. Correct.
Q. And where was that parked?
A. It was up at 8th and Harvey.
Q. Okay. Approximately what time was it when you got to the
parking lot across from the building? You did walk the scene
and go down near the building and the parking lot across the
street?
A. Well, it was about 6:30.
James Elliott - Cross
Q. 6:30 that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see it at all before 6:30 that night, the fires?
A. No. When I arrived there, there was no fire.
Q. Had the fire department already put out the fires of the
automobiles that were in the parking lot?
A. I assume so, sir. They weren't burning when I was there.
Q. Okay. Had you -- in connection with your duties with the
FBI, have you seen the photographs of all the cars that were on
fire then?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. When you first saw it at 6:30, how many cars were still
there that you recall?
A. I don't know how many cars were there, but I know that all
of the vehicles that were parked there at the time of the
explosion were there because none had been moved.
Q. Okay. Later on, they were moved, were they not?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you recall how they were moved? Were you present when
they were moving them?
A. I was not actually present when they were moving most of
them. I was again in and out of that area. They were taken to
Robinson Street, where -- in my understanding -- and I didn't
actually observe this. My understanding, they were examined at
that point.
James Elliott - Cross
Q. Okay. Okay. But back to the scene that day, the time you
got there at 6:30, all the fires were out, but the cars were
still there?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you give the jury just a rough estimation of how many
cars were there?
A. 30 to 40, I would guess.
Q. Okay. Do you know how the fire department put out those
fires? Was it with a regular fire hose to a fire hydrant, or
was it chemicals, or dirt, or do you know?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. Okay. Did you go down and examine the area at that time at
6:30? You mentioned to the jury that you had gone out to the
Evidence Control Center and got that set up and working and
then came back to help in collection of the evidence. Did you
focus your collection within that parking lot?
A. No. I wasn't in the parking lot. No.
Q. Where were you collecting evidence?
A. I actually -- I collected only one piece of evidence.
Q. Oh, just that bumper and license plate?
A. Yes. Yes. By happenstance, actually.
Q. I'm sorry. Okay.
Did you see the other agents that were searching that
parking lot?
A. I don't recall anyone being in a parking lot at that time.
James Elliott - Cross
Q. Okay. And was it -- you said it started raining about
4 p.m.
A. Yes.
Q. And at 6, when you got back there and found that bumper,
was it raining pretty hard then?
A. I don't believe so. My recollection is it wasn't raining.
It rained two or three different times during the day; and the
best of my recollection, it was not raining at that time.
Q. Okay. What about the next day on the 20th? Was it raining
during that day?
A. I can't recall. It rained several days during the period
of collection. Whether it rained the 20th or not, I don't
recall.
Q. Didn't a bunch of agents come in from Washington right
after the bombing on the 19th and the 20th?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that their plane was diverted because of the
rainstorm there that night?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor. This is not
his personal knowledge.
THE COURT: All right. Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. You told the jury that it rained on the 19th; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
James Elliott - Cross
Q. Do you know how long it rained, to what hour?
A. No, sir, I don't. It was into the night.
Q. How long were you on the scene there on the 19th?
A. I wasn't actually on the scene very long that evening,
maybe 30 minutes at the most.
Q. That's that 6:30 period you're talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. I went to the Evidence Control Center.
Q. And you set up a control mechanism to take in the evidence
that was being removed from the scene; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, that's just a big, old warehouse, isn't it?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. In fact, you and I have spent a lot of time in that
warehouse?
A. Quite a lot.
Q. What was it used before -- used for before the FBI rented
it?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Do you know when they rented it?
A. No, sir, I don't.
Q. Now, you told the jury that there was some evidence in
there before you took it over --
A. That's correct.
James Elliott - Cross
Q. -- that day.
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, there were some automobiles in there, weren't there?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember how many?
A. About -- three horse trailers and I think four automobiles.
Q. Okay. Now, the horse trailers -- were those the big
trailers that handle two horses at a time, or what size were
they?
A. One was a stock trailer -- actually two. One was a stock
trailer, and one was I believe a four-horse trailer.
Q. Where did you move those automobiles and the horse
trailers?
A. They stayed where they were.
Q. Okay.
A. On the opposite side of the building.
Q. You just moved them or kept them segregated within that
building?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you give the jury an idea about how big this building
was, this warehouse where you're storing the evidence?
A. I'm pretty poor at that, but 30,000 feet, something like
that.
Q. Okay. Did the Special Projects Unit make a model of that
building for us?
James Elliott - Cross
A. No, they did not.
Q. Okay. Now, what else was in there besides your automobiles
and the horse trailers? What other evidence did you have in
there on the 19th, when you took it over?
A. There were some purses that were knock-off-type purses.
Q. Trademark violation?
A. Trademark violations, yes.
Q. So you had those gathered up somewhere?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
A. And I believe there were some slot machines and some
gambling machines of some sort and then some other
miscellaneous items.
Q. All right. Now, you told the jury that you swept the place
out?
A. Yes.
Q. It was pretty dirty, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you use any cleaning equipment to clean that floor or
try to disinfect --
A. No.
Q. -- the place? Or lay down a new covering or anything in
the warehouse to put all this evidence on?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. In fact, sweeping it didn't get everything out, did
James Elliott - Cross
it?
A. Still pretty dirty.
Q. Yes, sir. Now, what kind of doors did you have opening up
into that warehouse?
A. From the outside?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. It was an overhead-type garage door in the front, or two of
them, one which was barred and did not open. And there was
a -- just a regular door, 6-foot door, 8-foot door.
Q. Now, that big door that lets cars drive in: That remained
opened when you were there during the day if the weather
permitted?
A. When it got warm, yes, sir.
Q. And the 4th Street -- was that 4th or Classen that ran
right by the door?
A. 4th Street.
Q. 4th Street. Okay. So anything from the street could blow
in while that door is open; is that correct?
A. Possible.
Q. You recall how many times -- did you have to sweep out
every day when you began the day down there?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. Not really.
Q. Did you ever sweep again after that first time?
James Elliott - Cross
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Can you give us an idea how many times you had to sweep out
while the evidence was there before it was sent to the lab in
Washington?
A. Three, four times at the most.
Q. But never did anything further as to cleaning the area?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Now, you told the jury that you put this evidence in
bins. "Bins" to you means you designate an area on the
concrete floor and you separated it out with duct tape. Is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. So whatever evidence they brought in, you just put on the
floor within the parameters of duct tape.
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. There was a lot of stuff being brought in, wasn't
there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In fact, didn't you at one time make an estimation about
how many thousands of pounds of evidence came in?
A. Approximately 7,000.
Q. Okay. Now, can you give the jury an idea of what kind of
evidence was being brought in to you there at the Evidence
Control Center?
A. It was principally truck parts, pieces of twisted metal,
James Elliott - Cross
plastic. Essentially, that's it.
Q. Didn't you recover the -- the agents recover a lot of the
pieces of the box from the Ryder truck?
A. Not a great --
Q. By pieces, I mean -- well, can you give the jury, based on
what you saw of the evidence that was recovered -- can you give
the jury an idea of what that box was made of that sits behind
the cab of a Ryder truck?
A. Well, it's a fiberglass and appears to me to be some sort
of pressed -- like pressed wood.
Q. Okay. Didn't you all bring a truck to the scene to make a
comparison?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you look inside of the Ryder truck that was the same
size for comparison purposes?
A. To my knowledge.
Q. Was the floorboard wooden, or was it a metal -- by
floorboard, I mean inside the box.
A. I don't know that I ever looked in there, sir.
Q. You didn't look in the Ryder that they brought to the scene
to show the agents what they may be looking for?
A.