The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Wednesday, November 5, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 63)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:44 a.m., on the 5th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, SEAN CONNELLY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY
MEARNS, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308,
Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:44 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
May I have counsel at the bench.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 63B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
THE COURT: All right. Since we're here a little
early for this bench conference and the jury is here, we'll
start a little early.
(Jury in at 8:47 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
JURY: Good morning.
THE COURT: I guess this is a surprise starting time.
We're not trying to surprise you. The fact of the matter is
that I had a conference here with counsel on some procedural
matters, and since -- that was accomplished a little faster
than I expected and we're a few minutes ahead of the starting
time. Since you're all here, we might as well start, so that's
why we brought you into the courtroom before 9:00.
So we are ready for the next witness?
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, the United States will call
Trooper Charlie Hanger.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MACKEY: Mr. Goelman will present.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Charles Hanger affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Charles J. Hanger, H-A-N-G-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. I think they can all probably guess by your uniform, but
can you tell the jury and the Court what you do for a living.
A. I'm a state trooper for the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.
Q. How long have you been a state trooper in Oklahoma?
A. Since September of 1976.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes.
Q. What are their names and ages?
A. I have -- oldest, 25 years of age, is Jennifer. Lisa is an
18-year-old, and Mindy is 16 years old.
Q. Officer Hanger, how much longer do you have until
retirement?
A. I plan on retiring in seven more years.
Q. Could you retire now?
A. Yes.
Q. And why don't you?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. I want to try to get my kids out of college first.
Q. I want to talk about what your job responsibilities were in
April 1995. Where did you patrol at that time?
A. At that time I was assigned to a dual detachment area.
Part of it was the interstate system near the -- which began on
the south end of my detachment at the 165-and-a-half mile
marker on Interstate 35 and continued north to near the
208-mile marker. I also had responsibilities for all the
two-lane roads in Noble County. The interstate detachment
covered two counties which was Payne and Noble County.
Q. And where in Oklahoma were you patrolling at that time?
A. That's the northern part of the state. I'm within 35 miles
of the Kansas border and just about 60 to 65 miles north of
Oklahoma City.
Q. What were your duties?
A. Primarily traffic, sworn to uphold all the traffic and
criminal laws in the state, investigate accidents, enforce
traffic laws, assist the motoring public in any way.
Q. Officer Hanger, in April, 1995, was it legal to drive in
Oklahoma without a license plate?
A. No, it was not.
Q. And in April, 1995, was it legal to transport a loaded
firearm?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Do you recall when you first heard about the bombing in
Charles Hanger - Direct
Oklahoma City?
A. Yes. It was shortly after 9:00 a.m. on that morning of
April the 19th. I was at the turnpike headquarters of the
Cimarron Turnpike in eastern Noble County.
Q. What did you do when you heard about the bombing?
A. We turned on the television there at headquarters and began
watching the coverage on the TV.
Q. Did you receive any orders related to the bombing, Officer
Hanger?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what were they?
A. Pawnee headquarters gave me a radio call to report to the
Oklahoma City area, to the command post there and assist as
needed.
Q. Did your orders say anything about radio traffic?
A. They had told me that the radio net was what we would call
as 1063. That's restricting the radio net to a specific area,
and this instance it was restricted to units working the
Oklahoma City area. Unless you had an emergency, then anyone
could use it.
Q. And what did you do after you got your orders to go to
Oklahoma City?
A. I got in my unit and proceeded west on the Cimarron
Turnpike west to the first exit, which is the U.S. 64 exit. I
got off there and went west on U.S. 64 through the city of
Charles Hanger - Direct
Perry, Oklahoma; and then on the west edge of Perry, I got on
Interstate 35 and began traveling south.
Q. And how fast were you going during this trip?
A. Speeds upward of a hundred mile per hour.
Q. Were your sirens on?
A. Yes.
Q. Were your emergency lights flashing?
A. Yes.
Q. How far is the headquarters where you were when you heard
about the bombing from Oklahoma City?
A. That's approximately 80 to 85 miles.
Q. Did you get to Oklahoma City that day, Officer Hanger?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. As I had just gotten on the interstate there on the west
edge of Perry and began traveling south, I received a radio
call from my headquarters advising me to disregard that
assignment and to remain in my area.
Q. Officer Hanger, are you familiar with the roads in northern
Oklahoma from your service on the highway patrol?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you please take a look inside that folder there and
see if you can find Government Exhibit 410.
A. I have it.
Q. Do you recognize that?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. Yes. That's a map of part of the northern part of Oklahoma
from Oklahoma City north.
Q. Is that a fair and accurate map of northern Oklahoma?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 410,
your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 410 received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Using that map and the light pen that should be there at
your side, Officer Hanger, could you indicate for the ladies
and gentlemen of the jury where you were when you first heard
about the bombing.
A. I was in this area right here on the Cimarron Turnpike.
Q. And can you circle Oklahoma City on that map.
Okay. Now, would you trace the path where you went
when you got your orders to report to Oklahoma City, Officer
Hanger.
A. Yes. I was on the turnpike. I went west to this exit
right here, which is U.S. 64, continued west through the city
of Perry. Upon reaching Interstate 35, then I started south on
Interstate 35.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, is there any way we can get
Charles Hanger - Direct
a different color than white for Officer Hanger's -- wrong
person to ask.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, could you experiment a little bit and draw
a line on that map.
Okay. Thanks.
Thank you.
And indicate on the map where you were when you got
your orders not to proceed to Oklahoma City.
A. I was between these two exits right here.
Q. Okay. And what did you do when you got those orders?
A. I turned around and began traveling north on Interstate 35.
Q. Is that from Oklahoma City or away from Oklahoma City?
A. That'd be going away from Oklahoma City.
Q. And towards Kansas or from Kansas?
A. Towards Kansas.
Q. Where in particular were you headed?
A. Prior to receiving the call, the initial call to go to
Oklahoma City, I had received a call of a motorist broken down
north of Perry, so I was going to continue up to that location
to see if that motorist was still there.
Q. And did you reach that motorist?
A. Before reaching that call, I drove up on another vehicle
that was broken down just north of the north Perry exit. And I
stopped and assisted that motorist.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. How long were you at that stop?
A. Oh, 5 or 10 minutes.
Q. And what did you do after that?
A. Then I continued north on Interstate 35.
Q. As you are traveling north on Interstate 35, Officer
Hanger, was your attention drawn to a particular car?
A. Yes.
Q. And tell us about that, please.
A. I was northbound on the interstate in the left-hand lane
when I came upon a vehicle which was a yellow 1977 Mercury
Marquis, four-door. It had a primer spot on the left rear
quarter panel. And I started around that vehicle in the left
lane, it was in the right lane traveling north, I observed that
it was not displaying a tag on the rear bumper.
Q. What did you do after you noticed that the Mercury wasn't
displaying a tag?
A. I slowed down, fell in behind the vehicle, got in the same
lane it was in. Initiated my emergency lights and signaled for
it to pull over.
Q. What did the Mercury do when you turned your lights on?
A. It began slowing down and pulling over to the east side of
the roadway, the shoulder.
Q. Where did you pull the Mercury over on April 19?
A. It was between Mile Marker 202 and 203, about a mile south
of the Billings exit.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. How long did the Mercury take to pull over?
A. Oh, less than a quarter of a mile.
Q. Is that a normal distance for pulling cars over?
A. It is for the highway speeds on interstate.
Q. Did you find it necessary to turn on your sirens or
anything?
A. No.
Q. And in the course of this traffic stop, Officer Hanger, did
you get a good chance to examine the car? Did you get a good
look at it?
A. Yes.
Q. I want you to turn to Government Exhibit 414 in your
folder.
A. I have it.
Q. What is that?
A. That is the car that I stopped that morning.
Q. And is that what it looked like when you pulled it over on
April 19, 1995?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, move to admit Government
Exhibit 414.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 414 is received; may be shown.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, can you click your pen to -- thank you.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Now, could you please indicate where the primer spot
is that you were talking about.
What happened after you pulled that car over, Officer
Hanger?
A. As I was pulling behind it and approaching the car, I was
observing the inside of the car to see how many people were in
it, and I could only see one, which was the driver. I pulled
up within about 20 feet of the car and stopped. I was offset
to the car a little bit, as you can see in the photograph,
which is partially in the grass and partially on the shoulder.
I was entirely on the shoulder and 3 to 4-foot to left of the
left-hand side of the car.
Q. What did you do after you came to a stop?
A. I took my seat belt off and opened my car door, and as I
was getting out of the car, I observed that the door of the
Mercury was already open. Just shortly thereafter, the
driver's feet came out, placed down on the asphalt. There was
a short hesitation, and then the driver stood up and got out of
the car.
Q. What did you do when the driver got out of the Mercury?
A. I looked at him. I could see both of his hands. He began
walking toward me, so I stepped out from behind my car door and
began walking toward him.
Q. What happened next?
A. We met behind his car. About 3 or 4 feet south of the left
Charles Hanger - Direct
rear corner of his car and off to the west 3 or 4 feet. And I
told him why I'd stopped him.
Q. Can you describe the driver of the Mercury?
A. Yes. He was a young man, in his mid 20's, about 6' 2",
175 pounds, thin-faced. He had light blond, brownish hair, and
a thin face.
Q. Can you look inside your folder and see if you can find
Government Exhibit 318.
A. Yes, I have it.
Q. Do you recognize that, Officer Hanger?
A. That's the gentleman that I stopped that morning.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 318.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 318 is received; may be displayed.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Since you first saw this man depicted in Government Exhibit
318 on April 19, have you come to know his identity, Officer
Hanger?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Who is that?
A. That's Timothy James McVeigh.
Q. And what happened when you and Mr. McVeigh met in between
your two cars?
A. Like I'd said, I informed him why I had stopped him. I
told him, "The reason I stopped you is because you're not
Charles Hanger - Direct
displaying a tag on the back of your car."
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh's response?
A. He turned and looked toward the bumper area of his car.
Q. Did he say something then?
A. He said, "I haven't had the car very long and I don't have
a tag yet."
Q. And what did you say?
A. I said, "Could you provide me a bill of sale."
Q. Did he do that?
A. He said that "The man that I bought the car from is still
filling out the bill of sale."
Q. And what was your response?
A. I said, "How long does it take to fill out a bill of sale?"
Q. Did he give you an answer to that?
A. He said, "I don't have one with me."
Q. What did you do at that point, Officer Hanger?
A. Then I asked him for his driver's license.
Q. And at that point was there any cause for special concern
on your part?
A. No.
Q. What had Mr. McVeigh's demeanor been up to that point?
A. Very calm, polite.
Q. Had he been unhelpful or disrespectful in any way?
A. No.
Q. What happened after you asked Mr. McVeigh for his driver's
Charles Hanger - Direct
license?
A. He took his right hand and went back to his right rear
pocket, produced a camouflage billfold and removed his driver's
license from that billfold and handed it to me.
Q. What happened after that?
A. As he was going to his right rear pocket to retrieve his
billfold, he had on a blue windbreaker-type jacket that was
just slightly zipped, and when he went to his pocket, it
tightened this jacket up somewhat; and I could see a bulge
under his left arm, and I thought that that was a weapon under
his arm.
Q. What did you do at that point?
A. I looked at the driver's license and looked at him. Then I
instructed him to take both hands, unzip his jacket, and to
very slowly move his jacket back.
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh's response when you told him to do
that?
A. He took both hands, he unzipped his jacket, and started
slowly pulling it back; and just as he started doing that, he
said, "I have a gun."
Q. When Mr. McVeigh told you that he had a gun, what did you
do?
A. I grabbed for the bulge, and I said, "Put your hands up and
turn around."
Q. Did he comply with your instructions?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. He did.
Q. What happened then?
A. I removed my pistol from my holster and stuck it to the
back of his head.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I instructed him to walk to the trunk of his automobile.
Q. Where was your gun at that point?
A. It was stuck at the back of his head.
Q. Okay. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything to you as he walked to
the back of the automobile?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "My weapon is loaded."
Q. What was your response?
A. I said, "So is mine."
Q. What did you do when you got Mr. McVeigh to the back of his
car?
A. I instructed him to put his hands on the trunk and to
spread his feet.
Q. Did he comply?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I then pulled back the jacket, removed the pistol from the
holster it was in, and threw it on the shoulder of the roadway.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say something to you at this point?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What?
A. He informed me that he also had another clip and a pouch on
his belt.
Q. What is a clip, Officer Hanger?
A. That is a magazine that holds ammunition that fits in the
bottom of a automatic weapon which feeds ammunition to the
chamber.
Q. And did you find this clip that Mr. McVeigh told you about?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I removed it from the pouch and threw it on the shoulder of
the road near the weapon.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything further to you at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He told me that he also had a knife on his belt.
Q. And did you relieve Mr. McVeigh of his knife as well?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do with that?
A. I also threw it on the shoulder near the other items I had
thrown down there.
Q. What did you do next, Officer Hanger?
A. I then patted him down and handcuffed him.
Q. Did you find any other weapons?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. No.
Q. At that point in the encounter, did you ask Mr. McVeigh
anything?
A. I asked him why he would be carrying a weapon on his
person.
Q. What was his response?
A. He said he felt like he had the right to do that for his
own protection.
Q. Did you have any reaction to that?
A. I told him that a wrong move on his part could have gotten
him shot.
Q. And what did Mr. McVeigh say to that?
A. Possible.
Q. After you disarmed Mr. McVeigh and handcuffed him, what did
you do?
A. I took him to the right front passenger seat of my unit,
placed him in there and seat-belted him in.
Q. What did you do with the weapons that you had dropped at
the side of the road?
A. I went back and retrieved those and took them to the trunk
of my unit.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I placed them in the trunk of my unit. Also checked the
weapon to see if it was loaded. Removed the clip from the
bottom of the weapon, then I checked the chamber of the weapon
Charles Hanger - Direct
and removed a round from that chamber.
Q. Okay. What is a chamber of a gun?
A. That's where the bullet goes while it's in the firing
position. That's the bullet that's ready to fire.
Q. That's the bullet that would come out if the gun were
fired?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you notice anything about this bullet when you
removed it from the chamber?
A. Yes. It was a Black Talon round, .45 caliber round.
Q. What's a Black Talon round?
A. My understanding, a Black Talon round is designed, when it
impacts something or a human being, it mushrooms, it produces
tentacles as it goes into the body, it does a much greater
damage to the human body because of these tentacles.
Q. What about the other bullets that Mr. McVeigh had on him?
A. They were what I considered just regular round ball
ammunition. They were just smooth, rounded, pointed
ammunition.
Q. They were not Black Talons?
A. No.
Q. What did you do with the gun?
A. After unloading it, I took it to my unit, to the driver's
side.
Q. And did you get in your unit at that time?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I made a call to my dispatcher on the cell phone, since I
couldn't use the radio, and informed my dispatcher where I was
at and that I had a individual in custody that had been armed,
and I asked the dispatcher to run some checks on this
individual.
Q. Mr. Hanger, why couldn't you use your radio?
A. The radio was restricted due to the ongoing tragedy in
Oklahoma City.
Q. What kind of checks did you ask your dispatcher to run?
A. I asked her to run a check for wanted on this individual,
to see if he was wanted and to also see if he had a prior
criminal history.
Q. Did you get a response from your dispatcher?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that response?
A. The dispatcher advised that the individual was not entered
as being wanted, and he had no prior criminal history.
Q. What did you do with the gun at that point?
A. I was -- I told her -- when I was talking to her on the
phone, I wanted to run a check on the gun to see if it was
stolen. I was turning it around looking for the serial number
and told her, it would be just a minute, I'd have to get the
serial number. While I was doing that, Mr. McVeigh spoke up.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. What did he say to you?
A. He said, "The serial number is VM769."
Q. What was your response to that information?
A. At about that same time, I had located it, and I said
"Well, you're close, it's VW769."
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "Well, I knew it was an M or a W."
Q. Did you have any further conversation with Mr. McVeigh
about his gun?
A. I said, "Well, most people wouldn't know the serial number
of their weapon."
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "Well, I do."
Q. When you got the serial number of the weapon, what did you
do?
A. I gave the information to the dispatcher, and she ran a
check to see if it was stolen.
Q. Was it stolen?
A. It was not.
Q. What did you do after determining that the gun wasn't
stolen and Mr. McVeigh wasn't wanted?
A. I took the gun and put it back in the trunk where the other
evidence was at, the trunk of my unit.
Q. And did you decide to speak to Mr. McVeigh at the point?
A. Yes, I shut the trunk and went up and got in my car. And I
Charles Hanger - Direct
attempted to initiate my video camera which would have an audio
recording capabilities. However, I hit the wrong two buttons,
and I only got video; I didn't get the audio.
Q. How did you begin to speak to Mr. McVeigh?
A. I read him his Miranda warning.
Q. What are they?
A. That is a card that informs the individual of his right to
remain silent or to have counsel present before speaking to me.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh agree to speak to you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did you go ahead and ask him some questions at that point?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say?
A. I again asked him why he didn't have a tag. And he said he
hadn't had the car very long and he hadn't got one. I then
asked him where he purchased the car. And he told me he had
purchased it in Junction City, Kansas, from a Firestone dealer
and the name of the salesman that he purchased it from was Tom.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh volunteer any other information about the
purchase of this car?
A. He told me that he gave around $250 for it and had traded
in another car that had broken down on him.
Q. Officer Hanger, do you know how to get to Junction City,
Kansas, from where you pulled Mr. McVeigh over?
A. Yes.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. How do you?
A. You go north on Interstate 35 into Kansas, get off on
Highway 77 and go north.
Q. Do you know whether or not that route would take you
through Herington, Kansas, before you get to Junction City?
A. Yes, it would.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything else about the purchase of the
car, or why he was driving without a license plate?
A. He had told me that he hadn't had time to get a tag. That
he had a tag that was on his car that had broken down, but he
felt like it was better to drive without a tag than to put the
wrong tag on it.
Q. Did he tell you anything about the tag that he had on the
car that had broken down?
A. He told me it was an Arizona tag and he quoted the number.
Q. Do you remember what that number was?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh tell you where that license plate was at
that point?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Mr. McVeigh for his permission to do anything
else, Officer Hanger?
A. Yes, I asked him if I could search his car.
Q. And what was his response?
A. Yes.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. He agreed?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Then I got out of my unit and went up to the car, but
before I began searching it, I went to the left front area of
windshield, the front windshield, and I recorded the vehicle
identification number from that plate that is located there.
Q. What is the vehicle identification number, Officer Hanger?
A. That's a number that's assigned to each and every vehicle,
no two vehicles have the same number, and it will specifically
identify that particular vehicle.
Q. And why did you take that number from the front part of the
Mercury?
A. I wanted to run a check for stolen on that number since it
didn't have a tag to check, and I also wanted to attempt to
locate a registered owner from the vehicle by using that
number.
Q. After copying down the VIN number, what did you do?
A. I then entered the front seat area of car, the door was
still open. I got in the front seat, looked around in the
front seat, under the front seat, in the glove box, and I
looked into the back seat.
Q. What did you see in the front seat?
A. There was a blue ball cap laying on the front seat; a piece
of white, lined writing paper with some writing on it; and an
Charles Hanger - Direct
envelope, legal-sized envelope, white, sealed, and about a
quarter to half inch thick.
Q. Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 468, please.
A. I have it.
Q. And to the best of your recollection, is that the way the
content of the front seat of the Mercury looked on April 19?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 468,
your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 468 received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Describe what we're seeing in that picture, Officer Hanger.
A. Looking into the front seat area of the Mercury from the
opened right-hand passenger door.
Q. Okay. And what items are we looking at in this photograph?
A. You can see the ball cap, the lined writing paper, and just
a corner of the envelope.
Q. Did you see whether the lined writing paper had anything
written on it?
A. I can't --
Q. Not in that picture. At the time that you were in the car?
A. Yes, at the time that I was in the car, I recognized it had
some writing on it.
Q. Do you remember what that writing was?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. No, I do not.
Q. I want to show you another picture now; it's Government
Exhibit 466. Just a different angle.
Did you find 466?
A. Do you want one in here, also?
Q. Yeah.
A. I have it.
Q. And is that a -- also a depiction of the contents of the
front seat from the other side?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the way it looked when you first saw the interior
of the car on April 19?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 466, your
Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 466 received and may be shown.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. And do you see the envelope that you saw in the front seat
of the Mercury in this picture?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Would you please circle it.
You said the envelope was sealed. Was there any
writing at all on the outside of the envelope?
A. No.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. What did you do after you searched the interior of
Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. I went back to my unit.
Q. What did you do there?
A. I again called the dispatcher and asked her to run a check
on the vehicle identification number that I had obtained and to
check for stolen and also to check the state of Kansas and
Oklahoma for a registration check.
Q. Was that vehicle stolen?
A. No.
Q. And did she find a registration in Kansas or Oklahoma?
A. No, she did not.
Q. Why did you pick those two states, Kansas and Oklahoma, to
run your check?
A. Well, we were in Oklahoma, so I always check Oklahoma. And
he had -- Mr. McVeigh had informed me that he had bought it in
Kansas.
Q. What did you do when the dispatcher couldn't find the
registration in either of those two states?
A. Well, I asked her -- there was a safety sticker on the
front windshield; I thought it was the state of Missouri, and I
asked her to check with the state of Missouri also.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything to you also?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. He spoke up and said, "That's an Arkansas safety sticker."
Q. What did you do with that information?
A. I told the dispatcher to run it through the state of
Arkansas.
Q. While you wait for a reply from the registration check, did
you have any further conversation with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. I asked Mr. McVeigh where he was coming from.
Q. And what did he say?
A. He said that he'd recently moved to Arkansas and had taken
a load of his belongings down there and was on his way back to
get more of his belongings.
Q. Did he say where he was on his way back to?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Was it clear to you from the previous conversation and from
the direction that Mr. McVeigh was headed when you pulled him
over where he was going back to?
A. It was my opinion he was going back to Junction City,
Kansas.
Q. And why was that your opinion?
A. That's where he had bought the car and that's where he had
traded in the car that had broken down.
Q. Did you ask Mr. McVeigh anything else at that point?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What's that?
A. I had also asked him how to get into his car, into the
Charles Hanger - Direct
trunk.
Q. Did you ask him whether or not he wanted you to leave his
car there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And why did you ask him that?
A. I asked him if he wanted me to tow the car or leave it at
the roadside. And I explained to him the difference, that if I
impound the car, I'll make a inventory of it and list his
property for his protection, and if he leaves it at the
roadside, it will be left at his own risk.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh want you to do?
A. He said, "Just leave it."
Q. Did you ask him anything further then?
A. I asked him if he wanted anything out of it.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said no.
Q. Did you ask him if he wanted anything in particular out of
the car?
A. Yes. I said, "What about the sealed envelope that's on the
seat?"
Q. And what was his response?
A. He said, "No, leave it there."
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh seem to know what envelope you were talking
about?
A. Yes.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. He didn't ask what are you talking or what envelope or
anything?
A. No. He just replied to the question.
Q. And you mentioned that you asked Mr. McVeigh something
about his trunk also during that period of time?
A. Yes. When I'd searched it earlier, I didn't see a trunk
key on the keys that were in the ignition, so I asked him how
to get into his trunk.
Q. And did he tell you how to get into his trunk?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. He told me that I'd have to push a release button that was
in the glove box.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes, I went to the right-hand side of the car to do that
and the door was locked and so I went back around to the
driver's side and got in and hit the button and opened the
trunk.
Q. What was in Mr. McVeigh's trunk?
A. Not much of anything. There was a little toolbox in there
with some hand tools, some rags, some of them were soiled, some
leaves and twigs, that's it.
Q. What did you do after conducting the search of
Mr. McVeigh's trunk, Officer Hanger?
A. I shut the trunk and I locked the automobile. And came
Charles Hanger - Direct
back to my unit.
Q. And what did you do then?
A. I backed my unit up. We waited for traffic to clear, I
crossed the center median and we went south on Interstate 35
en route to the Noble County Jail.
Q. Where is the Noble County Jail?
A. That's in Perry, Oklahoma, located in the courthouse.
Q. How long did the ride to the jail take from where you
pulled over and ultimately arrested Mr. McVeigh?
A. No more than 20 minutes.
Q. What was the ride like in terms of atmosphere or
conversation that you and Mr. McVeigh had?
A. There wasn't much conversation. He was concerned about how
he could get his weapon back.
Q. What did you tell him?
A. I told him that he'd have to contact the court or have an
attorney to contact the court and see how that could be done.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh show any signs of being upset?
A. No.
Q. Did he display any signs of panic?
A. No.
Q. Did he show any signs of being the least bit excited?
A. No.
Q. Or scared?
A. No.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Officer Hanger, where was Tim McVeigh during the ride to
the Noble County Jail on April 19?
A. He's still sitting in the same seat that I'd put him in
initially in the right front passenger seat.
Q. And did you later find something on the floor of your
patrol car behind where Mr. McVeigh had been sitting?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you describe that for the jury, please.
A. On the morning of the 22d, which would be the next shift
that I worked after completing my shift on the 19th, I'd went
to work that day, and I made a search of the, visual search of
the area of my car. I always look at the floorboards and the
seats to see if anything that might have been left in there
that could be used as a weapon. And while I was doing that, I
looked in the right rear floorboard and there was a crumpled-up
white business card laying in the floorboard.
Q. Had you ever seen that business card before, Officer
Hanger?
A. No.
Q. Who was the last prisoner you had transported before
finding that business card?
A. Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Would you please take a look at Government Exhibit 418
which should also be in your folder.
A. Is this 418A?
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Yeah, there should be 418, the original as well, 418A. But
keep 418A out. You're going to be looking at that in a second.
A. I have both of them.
Q. Okay. And is Government Exhibit 418 that business card
that you found on the floor of your patrol car?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit Government
Exhibit 418.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 418 received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Would you take a look at Government Exhibit 418A, please.
A. Yes.
Q. And is that nothing more than a clearer copy of Government
Exhibit 418?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 418A,
your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: It's received, also.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you read the big writing on the front of that
business card, please.
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. It says, "Paulsen's Military Supply."
Q. Okay. I want to show you the back of the card and have you
read that as well.
A. In big capital letters it says, "Dave," and then in
parentheses, it says "(TNT @ $5 a stick. Need more.)" Below
that is a telephone number that says, "708-288-0128." Below
that in printing it says, "Call after 1 May see if I can get
some more."
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, at this time I would ask the
Court to read a stipulation reached by the parties to
Mr. McVeigh's handwriting.
MR. WOODS: We do stipulate to that handwriting, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You want the whole thing?
MR. GOELMAN: It's page 4 of the table of contents of
the McVeigh handwriting stipulation. Nothing more than the
writing on the back of the card.
THE COURT: 418. All right.
Well, let me again remind you, members of the jury: A
stipulation means an agreement with respect to certain facts;
and of course when facts are agreed upon, we accept them as
true without the necessity of proof by other evidence, and in
this matter it has been agreed by both sides that the document,
418, which you've just seen -- 418A, a copy of it, was written
by Timothy James McVeigh.
Charles Hanger - Direct
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. What did you do when you got to the Noble County Jail,
Officer?
THE COURT: I should make it clear, the handwriting on
it is written by Timothy McVeigh, rather than the printing.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, what did you do when you got to the Noble
County Jail in Perry, Oklahoma?
A. Upon arriving at the jail, I took Mr. McVeigh out of the
unit and we went back to the trunk of my area -- my unit, the
trunk area, and I removed the evidence that I had placed in
there earlier.
Q. Where did you take Mr. McVeigh then?
A. Then I took him into the courthouse and up to the fourth
floor which is the jail area.
Q. Did you take him to a particular area in the jail?
A. Yes, to the booking room.
Q. What's the booking room?
A. That's where all prisoners are processed, their personal
information is recorded, their personal property is taken from
them and recorded, they're photographed, fingerprinted, before
they're placed in a cell.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. What is in the booking room?
A. In the booking room there's a large counter which is the
booking counter, covers about three-quarters of the width of
the room. Also a computer, desk that it sits on, and another
desk that has a TV on it.
Q. Do you remember if the television was on when you brought
Mr. McVeigh in on April 19?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you remember what it was showing?
A. They were showing coverage of the bombing in Oklahoma City.
Q. What was the nature of that television coverage?
A. They were showing pictures of the building that had been
bombed and also pictures of the parking lot and destroyed cars
in the area of the building.
Q. Was there anyone else in the booking room at that time
besides you and Mr. McVeigh?
A. The jailer was there, Mrs. Marsha Moritz.
Q. And did you and Mrs. Moritz discuss the bombing in any way?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the nature of your conversation?
A. We were talking about how tragic it was and how no doubt
that many people had been killed and many injured.
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh doing during this time when you and
Mrs. Moritz were discussing the bombing?
A. At times he was looking at the TV and at times he was just
Charles Hanger - Direct
looking away.
Q. Did he join in your discussion of the bombing?
A. No.
Q. Did he make any comments whatsoever?
A. No.
Q. What was his reaction to the devastation being shown on the
television screen?
A. There was no reaction.
Q. What did you do after bringing Mr. McVeigh to the booking
room?
A. I then went to the desk behind, to the north of the booking
area, where the computer's located and began working on a
probable cause affidavit.
Q. And how far is the desk that you were working at from the
booking area?
A. 5 or 6 feet.
Q. Do you remember what charges you filed against Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. What were they?
A. Transporting a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle,
unlawfully carrying a weapon, failure to display a current
number plate, which is a tag, on a motor vehicle and failure to
maintain proof of security, which is liability insurance.
Q. Officer Hanger, earlier you described how you got
Mr. McVeigh's driver license from him. Did you ever give that
Charles Hanger - Direct
back to Mr. McVeigh during the traffic stop?
A. No.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I stuck it in my left rear pocket, pant pocket.
Q. And what did you do with it when you brought Mr. McVeigh to
the Noble County Jail in the booking area?
A. I gave it to the jailer.
Q. Why did you give it to the jailer?
A. They use that as a -- recording information off that to put
on the booking card.
Q. And what is a booking card?
A. A booking card has the name of the prisoner that you're
booking in with some other information, their occupation, date
of birth, Social Security number. I think they list tattoos,
scars, or marks.
Q. Does the jail fill one of those out for every prisoner that
it takes in?
A. Yes.
Q. And does the booking card also include place for listing
someone as the prisoner's next of kin?
A. Yes.
Q. When Mr. McVeigh was being booked in and you were on the
computer, were you listening to any conversation between him
and Mrs. Moritz?
A. Yes.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Why were you doing that?
A. I pay attention to what's going on. I don't listen in on
every word, but I try to listen to the demeanor of the
prisoner, make sure that the jailer's not having any problems.
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh's demeanor when he started talking to
Mrs. Moritz?
A. He was very calm and cooperative.
Q. Did you hear anything unusual while you were at the
computer?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. I had heard Mrs. Moritz ask him who he wanted to list as
next of kin. And he didn't say anything. And I heard her ask
that same question again. He still didn't say anything. So
I --
Q. Mr. McVeigh just didn't have any response to those
questions?
A. No, he didn't respond at all.
Q. What did you do at that time?
A. So I got up from the chair that I was sitting in at the
computer and walked up to the booking counter.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. I didn't know whether she was going to have problems or
what. He had been cooperative up to that point, and I just
wanted to be there in case there was a problem.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Okay. What happened when you got to the booking counter?
A. I asked him, I said, "Well, what about this address listed
on the driver's license?" She was trying to explain to him
that the only reason that she wanted that information was in
case he would get sick or something, they weren't going to call
and tell his next of kin that he was in jail, but they wanted
someone to contact in case of an emergency.
And I said, "Well, what about the address listed on
the license?" I said, "Who lives there?"
Q. When Mrs. Moritz was explaining to Mr. McVeigh that the
only reason she wanted name of next of kin was in case he got
sick or something, did he give her a name at that point?
A. Not initially, no.
Q. Okay. Did Mr. McVeigh eventually provide a name?
A. Yes.
Q. And when was this?
A. That was after I'd asked him who lived at that address.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that was a place that he had stayed; it was a --
belonged to a brother of a friend that he was in the military
with.
Q. And did Mrs. Moritz say anything at that point?
A. She said, "Well, do you want to use that?" And he said
yes.
Q. What name did Mr. McVeigh give for next of kin?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. The last name was Nichols. At that particular time I
couldn't remember what the first name was.
Q. Could you take a look again inside your folder and find
Government Exhibit 427.
A. This isn't clearly marked. I'm not sure if that's it or
not.
Q. Officer, Exhibit 427 is -- it looks a lot like a driver's
license.
A. I see the license, but I don't see a number.
Q. Okay. Can you look on your screen and see if anything's
depicted there.
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. That's the driver's license that Mr. McVeigh handed to me
that morning.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, Government moves to admit
Exhibit 427.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 427 received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Is that the driver's license that you got from Mr. McVeigh
April 19, Officer Hanger?
A. Yes.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Would you please read the street address listed on that
license into the record.
A. That is 3616 North Van Dyke Road in Decker, Michigan. ZIP
48426.
Q. Thank you. And now could you look -- I hope these are
labeled a little bit better -- inside the folder for
Government's Exhibits 420, 422, and 423.
A. I have 420 and 422, and this other one doesn't have a
number on it.
Q. Officer Hanger, is there a number on the back of that
exhibit, maybe?
A. Yes, 423.
Q. So you've found all of them?
A. Yes.
Q. And are they all records that are made for prisoners when
they check into the Noble County Jail?
A. Two of them are. One of them is a document that I fill
out.
Q. What is the document that you fill out?
A. It's a confiscated property report.
Q. And are all three documents related to Mr. McVeigh's
arrest?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit 420, 422, 423, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
Charles Hanger - Direct
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish 420?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, do you see the exhibit that is displayed on
the screen below you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you read the name listed there?
A. At the top.
Q. Yeah.
A. It's Timothy James McVeigh.
Q. And what's the address?
A. 3616 North Van Dyke Road in Decker, Michigan.
Q. Where does Mrs. Moritz get the addresses that she puts on
booking cards?
A. Normally from the driver's license.
Q. Okay. And can you go down to where it says next of kin?
A. Yes.
Q. What does it say there?
A. James Nichols.
Q. Does it give a phone number?
A. Yes.
Q. What's that number?
A. I can't make out the second letter. It's either 507 or
517. And then it says 882-4018.
Q. Okay. Are you sure the second number of the number itself
Charles Hanger - Direct
is a 8 and not a 7?
A. Looking at the actual exhibit, not on the screen, it's
clearer it shows 512. 872-4018.
Q. 512?
A. Yes.
Q. Where does Mrs. Moritz --
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, we'll stipulate it's 517. 512
is Austin, Texas, ZIP code.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you.
Your Honor, we'll accept that stipulation.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh explain to you why he had been so hesitant
to give you the name Nichols?
A. No.
Q. Did he explain why he hadn't answered the question about
the next of kin the first three times it was asked?
A. No.
Q. Let's turn to another part of the booking process, Officer
Hanger. Are prisoners that are booked into the Noble County
Jail photographed?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Does that happen to all prisoners as part of intake?
A. Yes.
Q. How is this done?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. Prior to his photographing, we ask him to remove his jacket
that he'd had on. It was taken off, and also the holster that
he had on. Then he is asked to go to a corner -- the southwest
corner of the jail where there is a height chart. He's asked
to stand in front of that height chart. He's holding a sign
that has his booking number, the date, and it says "Noble
County Jail" on the sign.
Q. Do you remember asking Mr. McVeigh to take his jacket off
that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he comply?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What did you see when he took his jacket off?
A. He had on a light-colored T-shirt and on the front of it
was a picture of Abe Lincoln and some writing below that.
Q. Did you see what that writing said?
A. I saw the writing was there, but I didn't read it.
Q. Did you see Mr. McVeigh's photograph taken?
A. Yes.
Q. Who took it?
A. The jailer, Marsha Moritz.
Q. And where were you at the time?
A. I was standing there in the area watching her photograph
it.
Q. After Mr. McVeigh was photographed, what happened?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. Then he is asked to change his clothes, and the jailer
handed him a paper sack and some jail clothes and asked if I
would go with him to observe him changing his clothes.
Q. And why did you have to go with him to observe him changing
into jail clothes?
A. The people that are changed out are always supervised, but
since we had a male prisoner and a female jailer, it wouldn't
have been appropriate for her to go, so I went.
Q. Where did Mr. McVeigh change into jail clothes?
A. It's a little room across the hallway to the south of the
booking room.
Q. During that process, did you get a chance to see the back
of the T-shirt that he was wearing?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe that, please.
A. It had a large tree on it with some writing.
Q. Do you remember what the writing was?
A. No.
Q. Did you see what Mr. McVeigh did with the T-shirt after he
took off his civilian clothes?
A. He put it in the paper sack that had been provided to him.
Q. Do you know whether Mrs. Moritz also noticed the T-shirt
that Mr. McVeigh was wearing on that day?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. After Mr. McVeigh had been placed in a cell, she had made
the comment to me, "Wasn't that a strange T-shirt that he had
on?"
I said, "What do you mean?"
She said, "Well, it had a strange saying on it."
And I said, "Well, I didn't read it."
And she didn't recall exactly what it said, but she
thought it was odd.
Q. Can you take a look and see if you can find Government
Exhibit 421.
A. I have it.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a booking photo of Mr. McVeigh the day he was
booked into the county jail.
Q. Is that what he looked like when he was booked into the
Noble County Jail on April 19?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 421,
your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 421.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you see any of the part of the T-shirt that you saw on
that day, Officer Hanger?
A. Yes, I can see the front of it. The sign is partially
Charles Hanger - Direct
covering up Abraham Lincoln's face, but you can see from about
his forehead up.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, may I approach?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Do you have Government Exhibit 429 up there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And without showing it to the jury because it's not
in evidence yet, Officer Hanger, could you see if you recognize
this exhibit?
A. May I take it out?
Q. Sure.
A. Yes, that's the same T-shirt that Mr. McVeigh had on that
morning.
Q. How do you know that that's the same T-shirt?
A. It has the same picture of Abe Lincoln with some writing
below it and the picture of the tree on the back with writing
on it.
Q. Had you ever seen a shirt like that before April 19?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I move to admit Government
Exhibit 429.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 429 is received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish, your Honor?
Charles Hanger - Direct
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you please read what the back of the shirt says.
A. It says: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time
to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." And below
that it says, "T. Jefferson."
Q. And is there a picture on the back of the shirt?
A. Yes. It's a large tree, and it has red blood droplets.
Q. Can you please hold that up and show the back of the shirt
to the jury.
THE COURT: You may do that.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Thank you, Officer Hanger.
After you booked Timothy McVeigh into the Noble County
Jail that day, Officer Hanger, did you have any more contact
with him?
A. No.
Q. So all your contact with Mr. McVeigh was on April 19?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you spend with him that morning?
A. About a hour and a half.
Q. And how would you describe his demeanor during that hour
and a half you spent together?
A. For the most part, except during the time he didn't answer
the question on next of kin, it was very calm and polite,
Charles Hanger - Direct
cooperative.
Q. And except for the questions about next of kin, did his
demeanor change at all throughout the course of the time that
you spent together?
A. No.
Q. Was there anything about the way that Timothy McVeigh
looked, acted, or spoke on the morning of April 19, 1995, that
led you to suspect that he had just detonated the bomb that
destroyed the Murrah Building?
A. No.
Q. Let's turn to April 21, 1995, Officer Hanger. Two days
after the bombing, did you learn that federal investigators
suspected the man who you had arrested as being involved in the
bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you accompany agents on that day back up to where
you had left Mr. McVeigh's car on the highway?
A. Yes, I met them at the location of where the car had been
left.
Q. You met them there?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you find there?
A. The car that Mr. McVeigh was driving at the time that I
arrested him was still sitting where it had been left.
Q. And did it look like anything had changed with that car?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. No.
Q. Did you look inside the car?
A. Yes. I looked through the windows, into the car, and
everything looked the same as I had left it.
Q. Had you locked the car before you left on April 19?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know whether it was still locked on April 21
when you met federal agents up there?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. One final area of questioning, Officer Hanger. When you
arrested Tim McVeigh and searched his car, did you see if he
had a suitcase or duffel bag or any kind of bag of clothing in
there?
A. He didn't have.
Q. Did you see if he had a change of clothes?
A. There was none.
Q. I want you to look again at Government Exhibit 410 which
you previously identified, and has been introduced into
evidence.
A. I have it.
Q. And again, using the light pen, point out where Mr. McVeigh
was when you first pulled him over.
A. Right there in that area.
Q. About how far is that from the Kansas border?
A. About 35 miles.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. And can you point out Oklahoma City on this map, please.
Officer Hanger, if you were in Oklahoma City and you
wanted to get to Arkansas, how would you get there?
A. I would go east on Interstate 40.
Q. Officer Hanger, do you know where Kingman, Arizona, is?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you were in Oklahoma City and you wanted to get to
Kingman, Arizona, how would you get there?
A. I would go west on Interstate 40.
Q. Is there any reason if you were in Oklahoma City and you
wanted to get to one of those two places, to travel 80 miles
north on Interstate 35?
A. I don't see any reason.
Q. Officer Hanger, were you asked by the FBI to drive from
where the Murrah Building stood before the bombing to the point
where you pulled Mr. McVeigh over?
A. Yes.
Q. What route did you take to do that?
A. Took city streets over the Interstate 235, up to Interstate
44, and then Interstate 35 north.
Q. And how far is it from the site of the Murrah Building to
where you first noticed Mr. McVeigh on the morning of April 19?
A. It was 77.9/10 miles.
Q. What speeds were you traveling at when you took that route?
A. At the posted speeds that were posted on April the 19th,
Charles Hanger - Direct
1995.
Q. And how long did it take you?
A. 75 minutes and 15 seconds.
Q. How much longer would it have taken you to reach the Kansas
border if you continued at that speed on I-35?
A. Oh, around 30 minutes.
Q. And driving at the speed that was posted in April, 1995,
what time would you have arrived at that mile marker where you
arrested Tim McVeigh if you left at 9:02 in the morning?
A. Shortly after 10:17 a.m.
Q. About what time did you pull Mr. McVeigh over, Officer
Hanger?
A. A little before 10:20 a.m.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Trooper Hanger.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of lawyers that's appointed
to help Terry Nichols. You and I have never had a chance to
talk about this case, have we?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. That morning when you turned around and you got a
Charles Hanger - Cross
dispatch to not go to Oklahoma City but to turn and just patrol
your area; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How fast were you going when you passed the car that
Mr. McVeigh was in?
A. I was running 90 to a hundred miles an hour.
Q. What was the reason you were going so fast?
A. On Sunday, Sunday just prior to the 19th, it would have
been Easter Sunday, I had investigated an accident east of the
community of Billings, Oklahoma, on State Highway 15, which is
just west of Interstate 35. And I wanted to go up there and
view that area to see if there was any physical evidence that I
had missed because the accident had occurred during hours of
darkness, and I was afraid I was going to be sent back to
Oklahoma City, and I wanted to get this complete before that
might have happened, so I was rushing up there.
Q. And so you passed Mr. McVeigh how fast, approximately,
would you estimate that he was going?
A. I couldn't even estimate it. I don't know.
Q. Did you have your lights and siren going as you were
driving a hundred miles an hour?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And you just happened to look over and see the license
plate was not there?
A. Yes.
Charles Hanger - Cross
Q. Could you see if there was any other car near Mr. McVeigh,
either in front or the rear?
A. I didn't take any note of other traffic that was around
him. The interstate is usually busy. There very well could
have been, but I didn't take note of it.
Q. And when you stopped him, can you tell the jury about how
long it was before you turned on your camera?
A. It was after I had had him arrested, placed the evidence in
the trunk, ran the checks, went back, took the gun back to the
trunk, and then came back that I turned on the camera, but I
don't recall the exact time. A few minutes.
Q. Can you give us an approximation of how long it was before
you turned that on?
A. From the time of the stop until that point, less than 10
minutes.
Q. Okay. Isn't it your practice usually to have the camera
going as you get out of the car and go up to talk to the
individual?
A. If it's something that you think that you're going to need
to document. If you're stopping a vehicle that's driving
erratically and you think you have a DUI, well, then, yes, you
would turn it on and record that information because that would
be pertinent to your case, but I didn't feel like it was
necessary in this instance.
Q. Okay. So you felt that you should turn it on once you
Charles Hanger - Cross
started talking to Mr. McVeigh in the car; is that correct?
A. Yes. I wanted to be able to document the conversation. I
knew that I was going to read him his Miranda warning. I
wanted that documented, and I wanted to document the entire
conversation.
Q. Okay. And is that a practice that is taught there in
Oklahoma; that when you're talking with a suspect, you normally
try to record the conversation?
A. I wouldn't say that it's a practice that is taught. But a
lot of times I do do that.
Q. Well, you've gone to all the police schools in Oklahoma, I
take it, haven't you, to become a trooper and to maintain your
certification?
A. I attended the training academy in Oklahoma City and then
receive additional training each year.
Q. During that training, haven't they taught you to tape-
record the interviews of suspects?
A. It's -- I've never had a school where they said that was a
mandate. I know of no patrol policy that mandates that.
Q. How familiar are you with that camera? How long had it
been in your car that you had been operating it?
A. I don't recall exactly how long I'd had that. It had been
a few months. I hadn't had it a long time.
Q. Was this a new installation? You hadn't had a camera
before?
Charles Hanger - Cross
A. This was the first camera I'd ever had.
Q. So you'd had it for how many months?
A. I'd just have to give you a wild guess; I really don't
recall.
Q. Give us a wild guess.
A. Six months.
Q. Okay. And you told the jury that you punched the wrong
button, and you only got video rather than audio?
A. Yes. That camera has the capabilities of recording the
information inside the car as you're recording video outside
the car, and I just pushed the wrong two buttons.
Q. Okay. Now, have you reviewed that video from start to
finish -- do you recall -- Let's start with when did you turn
it off.
A. I believe I turned it off just prior to getting off the
interstate at the Perry exit while we were en route to the
Noble County Jail.
Q. Okay. Have you reviewed that video from start to finish?
A. No.
Q. Did the FBI ever ask you to review it?
A. We looked at parts of it, but we didn't look at it from
start to finish.
Q. When you looked at it, did you see a brown pickup that had
stopped in front of McVeigh some distance up?
A. No.
Charles Hanger - Cross
Q. Do you recall the media reports at that time that your
video camera showed a brown pickup that had stopped --
MR. GOELMAN: Objection.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. -- in front of McVeigh?
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Did you ever have any information that you were asked to
look at concerning a brown pickup that was stopped in front of
the Mercury Marquis some distance up?
MR. GOELMAN: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question, please.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Yes. Did you ever have any information that there was a
brown pickup that was stopped in front of McVeigh's vehicle
some distance up the road at the time of your stop?
A. I had been asked if I had seen such a pickup.
Q. And did you look at your video in detail from start to
finish to see if it was on there?
A. Not from start to finish.
Q. Did the FBI take it and look at it, to your knowledge?
A. They took the video. I don't know what they -- how
extensive they looked at it.
Q. Did you ever get it back?
Charles Hanger - Cross
A. No.
Q. When did they take it?
A. I turned it over to them, I believe, on the 27th of April.
Q. Is that the first time they requested it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they have a subpoena for it, or they just come get it,
or what?
A. They asked for it, and I turned it over to an agent in
Oklahoma City.
Q. Did you drive down there and give it to them?
A. I had to be down there for a court hearing that day, and I
took it with me.
Q. Okay. Now, you told the jury that when you stopped
Mr. McVeigh and he came back and you all met there behind the
car that you told him that you were stopping him for no license
plate; is that correct?
A. Yes, for not displaying a tag.
Q. And you said that he turned and looked at where the tag
should be.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Why did he do that?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Do you know what reaction he gave when he turned and looked
Charles Hanger - Cross
at the space?
A. I know what he said.
Q. What kind of reaction did you observe before he said
anything?
A. I don't recall any reaction. His demeanor never changed.
He looked at -- but he did turn and look at the bumper.
Q. Okay. And then he started telling you a reason why he
didn't have the license plate; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How much -- how many seconds passed there before he started
telling you a version or a reason why he didn't have a plate?
A. Oh, just almost immediately.
Q. Now, do you have that driver's license in front of you,
sir? And that's going to be Exhibit No. 427.
A. Yes.
Q. Does that driver's license reflect a date of issuance?
A. There's something that says "issued" up there, but I can't
read it through this plastic.
Q. Do you need glasses for reading?
A. I'm just getting to that point in my life where I --
Q. I know that feeling.
THE COURT: Maybe it's on the display one. Is it?
MR. WOODS: Well, I'm sure the Government's got a
computer hookup. Let me see if I can.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: There it is.
Charles Hanger - Cross
MR. WOODS: Here we go. Thank you, very much.
THE WITNESS: Much clearer there.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. This is a Michigan driver's license; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And on the top line, does it show a date of issue? It says
"issued"?
A. It says "issue," but it really doesn't look like a date.
It looks like it says D242294.
Q. It's hard to come up with a date in there.
A. I don't know what that is. I'm not familiar with the
Michigan driver's license process.
Q. Okay. And then the next blank on the right, it expires on
"Birthday '97"?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, thanks.
Now, Trooper Hanger, you have never seen Terry
Nichols; is that correct? You certainly didn't see him there
that day.
A. I've never seen him in person, until today.
Q. You didn't see him that day for certain.
A. No.
Q. Do you know what the reason was why the lawyers in your
department wouldn't let you talk to us?
A. You'd have to ask them.
Charles Hanger - Cross
MR. GOELMAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: He already answered, "You'd have to ask
them."
MR. WOODS: Thank you, very much, Trooper. I
appreciate this opportunity to talk to you finally.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman, do you have any follow-up?
MR. GOELMAN: Just one question, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, you told Mr. Woods that you weren't paying
much attention to the other traffic when you initially pulled
Mr. McVeigh over?
A. Yes.
Q. You also told him that you don't remember seeing any brown
pickup truck.
A. Yes.
Q. If there had been a brown pickup truck stopped on the
shoulder of I-35 ahead of Mr. McVeigh when you pulled him over,
would you have noticed that?
A. Possibly. Possibly not. I wasn't focusing right down the
road. If it would have been close, I would have noticed it.
Q. If it was within 20 feet, would you have noticed it?
A. Oh, yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further.
Charles Hanger - Redirect
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, just a couple more questions.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Trooper Hanger, do you recall testifying at the bond
hearing for Mr. McVeigh?
A. Was that at the hearing in El Reno?
Q. Pardon me?
A. Was that at the hearing in El Reno?
Q. I believe it is, sir.
A. On the 27th of April?
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me.
MR. WOODS: May I have one second, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. No, sir, I'm sorry. This was at the initial hearing that
Friday on April the 21st, there in Noble County, in front of --
you were being asked questions by Mark Gibson, the assistant
district attorney. It was in front of Judge Danny Allen.
A. I didn't attend that hearing.
Q. Okay. You were not present when Mr. Gibbons was explaining
to the Court about Mr. McVeigh?
A. Mr. who?
Q. About Mr. McVeigh?
A. I didn't understand -- you said Mr. someone, and I didn't
Charles Hanger - Recross
understand who you said.
Q. Mr. Gibson, who is the assistant district attorney.
A. On the 21st of April, I was off that day. I didn't attend
any hearing that day.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you.
MR. GOELMAN: May be excused, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that agreed?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. No further questions.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, United States will call FBI
Agent William Eppright. Mr. Goelman will present.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(William Eppright affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you state your full name
for the record and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: William Eppright, E-P-P-R-I-G-H-T, III.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
William Eppright - Direct
Q. Mr. Eppright, what do you do for a living?
A. I'm a special agent with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Q. Please briefly describe your education for the Court and
the jury.
A. I have a bachelor of arts degree in mathematics and law and
justice from Glassboro State College, now known as Rowan
University, in New Jersey, and a master's of forensic science
from George Washington University.
Q. What did you do after graduating from college?
A. I immediately took a support position with the FBI in
Washington, D.C., at our headquarters.
Q. What's a support position?
A. I worked in various units at our headquarters. I worked in
our identification division, which handled fingerprint matters;
I worked in our budget and accounting section; I worked in our
laboratory; and I briefly worked in our computer division.
Q. How long have you been a special agent?
A. Approximately 12 years, going on 13.
Q. And have all those years been spent in one office?
A. Yes, sir. I've been in Dallas, Texas, for my entire tour
as an FBI agent.
Q. Are you a member of the Dallas FBI office Evidence Response
Team?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
William Eppright - Direct
Q. Will you explain what that is.
A. An Evidence Response Team is a group, a team of special
agents and support personnel who are specially trained in the
recognition, recovery, preservation, and documentation of
evidence which may be located at complex crime scenes.
Q. And how long have you been a member of the Dallas ERT?
A. I've been a member since its inception in 1991.
Q. How many complex crime scenes have you worked as a member
of the ERT?
A. I would estimate approximately two dozen.
Q. In April 1995, were you serving as a special agent and ERT
team member in Dallas?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. And on April 19, were you sent to Oklahoma City to
participate in the investigation of the bombing?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. How did you get to Oklahoma City?
A. I drove my FBI vehicle.
Q. And about what time did you get there?
A. I arrived sometime in the midafternoon.
Q. Were you still in Oklahoma City two days later, on
April 21, 1995?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. And that afternoon, did you become aware that the FBI had
arrested a suspect in the bombing?
William Eppright - Direct
A. Yes, sir. Sometime that day, I became aware of that fact.
Q. And who was that suspect?
A. That suspect was Timothy McVeigh.
Q. Were you given an assignment related to the arrest of
Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. What was that?
A. I was told that a vehicle that the suspect was arrested in
was going to arrive at our Evidence Control Center, and I was
instructed to go to the Evidence Control Center and coordinate
and oversee a search that was going to be conducted of the
vehicle.
Q. Did you go to the Evidence Control Center on April 21?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What time did you get there?
A. I arrived there sometime in the midafternoon, I believe.
Q. And was this vehicle that you'd been assigned to search
already there?
A. No, sir, it was not.
Q. When did you first see this vehicle?
A. I first saw the vehicle when it arrived at the Evidence
Control Center sometime in the late afternoon.
Q. How did it arrive?
A. It arrived on a flatbed trailer that was being towed by a
tow-truck driver.
William Eppright - Direct
Q. Can you describe the vehicle on the flatbed?
A. Yes, sir. It was older. It was a yellowish, brownish; and
it contained a good amount of primer or rust, discoloration on
the rear quarter panel of the driver's side.
Q. And what did you do when the car was delivered to the
warehouse?
A. At that point, I instructed that the vehicle be located in
the rear of the warehouse.
Q. Please take a look at the exhibit on your screen,
Government's Exhibit 414. And it's already in evidence. Do
you recognize the car depicted in that picture, not the
surroundings, necessarily?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Agent Eppright, could you please click your pen a couple
times to remove the marks.
What happened after the Mercury was delivered to
Oklahoma City?
A. After the Mercury was delivered, again I instructed that
the car be located at the rear of the Evidence Control Center;
and I immediately erected a perimeter around the vehicle.
Q. What do you mean "a perimeter"?
A. Well, I set up -- I instructed that no one go anywhere
close to the vehicle. And I prepared a work space, tables and
chairs, awaiting to conduct or initiate the search of the
vehicle.
William Eppright - Direct
Q. And did you and other agents start the search of the car at
approximately 6:40 that evening?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. What was your understanding of the authority that you had
to search that car?
A. I understood that we had a search warrant authorizing us to
search the vehicle.
Q. Was the car locked, or unlocked, when it arrived in
Oklahoma City?
A. The vehicle was locked.
Q. And how did you gain entry?
A. We gained entry with the use of a Slim Jim or car-opening
device.
Q. Once you got into the car, what was done?
A. The very first thing that was done upon entering the
vehicle were air samples were taken from the inside of the
vehicle.
Q. Okay. Were you present when these tests were conducted?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Do you know what specific scientific tests were conducted?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Are you an expert in that field?
A. No, sir, I am not.
Q. Did you see whether any of those tests involved moving
around the contents of the Mercury?
William Eppright - Direct
A. Yes, I did see that. The test did not entail moving any of
the contents.
Q. Did you instruct that something be done with the car after
those scientific tests were conducted?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What's that?
A. I instructed that photographs be taken of the -- the
interior of the vehicle from both the driver's side and the
passenger's side.
Q. Agent Eppright, would you please look at Government Exhibit
468.
Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the front
seat from the passenger side of the car?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Okay, and do you recognize the items that we can see in
this picture?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. What are they?
A. The items I can see in the picture are a baseball hat, an
8-1/2-by-11 sheet of paper, a clipboard, and you can barely
make out the end of an envelope.
Q. Okay. I want to take a little bit closer look and zoom in.
Can you see the 8-1/2-by-11 sheet of paper that you just
described there?
A. Yes, sir, you can.
William Eppright - Direct
Q. And did you get a chance to see that paper up close a
little bit later?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you get a chance to see if there was anything written
on it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you please look in your folder and see if you can find
Government Exhibit 447.
A. I have that in front of me.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. It is the 8-1/2-by-11 sheet of paper which I directed to be
removed from the front seat of the vehicle.
Q. How do you know that's the same sheet of paper that you
first saw on April 21, 1995?
A. I recognize it, and it contains my initials and date.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit Government
Exhibit 447.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. GOELMAN: Publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Please read what this sheet of paper said into the record,
William Eppright - Direct
Agent Eppright.
A. The sheet of paper reads: "Not abandoned," and that is
underlined, "please do not tow. Will move by April 23." And
then in parentheses, it reads: "(Needs battery and cable),"
end of parentheses.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, the parties have reached a
stipulation that I would ask the Court to read, if it pleases,
page 5.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, we stipulated to that
handwriting.
THE COURT: All right. Again, there's an agreement
here that the handwriting on this exhibit, 447, is that of
Timothy James McVeigh.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent Eppright, do you know whether there was at that time
or had been anything at all wrong with the battery in that
Mercury Marquis?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you know if there's anything wrong or had been anything
wrong with the cable or cables in that car?
A. No, I do not.
Q. You identified several items that we can see on the front
seat from the passenger side. Did you also cause a picture to
be taken of the front seat from the driver's side?
William Eppright - Direct
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And can you take a look at Government Exhibit 466, already
in evidence, I believe.
A. I have that on the screen.
Q. Okay. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. That is a picture taken of the interior from the driver's
side of the vehicle.
Q. And is the envelope that you could kind of see from the
other side more visible in this -- from this angle?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Okay. I want to zoom in on that. Can you describe this
envelope that you first saw when you started the search of
Mr. McVeigh's car on April 21?
A. Yes, sir. The envelope was sealed. It was a business-size
envelope, and it had a thickness to it. It appeared to be an
inch or two in thickness.
Q. Did it have any writing on the outside of the envelope?
A. No, sir, it did not.
Q. Did it have a stamp?
A. No, sir, it did not.
Q. Did you later get a chance to see what was inside the
envelope?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
William Eppright - Direct
Q. Will you tell the jury about that, please.
A. The inside of the envelope contained two separate stacks of
various-sized documents; each stack was folded into thirds.
Q. Agent Eppright, how did you open the envelope?
A. I opened the envelope by tearing it along one end.
Q. Why did you do it that way?
A. I did not want to insert any foreign object into the
envelope.
Q. Okay. You said you noticed two stacks of paper folded into
thirds?
A. Yes, sir, two separate stacks of papers.
Q. Did you notice if either of the stacks had any writing on
them?
A. Yes, sir, there was a handwritten notation on the outside
of one of the stacks.
Q. Agent Eppright, when you first opened this envelope and
took out the two stacks of paper that you described, did you
cause a picture to be taken of this?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Would you look at -- see if you can find Government Exhibit
448A?
A. I have that.
Q. What is that?
A. This is a picture that I had directed to be taken of the
contents of the envelope as they appeared when they -- when I
William Eppright - Direct
removed them from the envelope with the handwritten notation on
the outside.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I would move to admit
Government Exhibit 448A.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 448A.
MR. GOELMAN: Publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Are those the two stacks of paper that were inside the
envelope, Agent Eppright, that front pile there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let's take a closer look at what the pile says. Would you
please read that into the record.
A. Yes, sir. It reads: "Obey the Constitution of the United
States and we won't shoot you."
Q. Did you later get a chance to see if there was anything
written on the other side of this paper?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what was on the other side of this paper?
A. The other side of the paper was the Declaration of
Independence.
Q. Could you please look inside your folder and see if you can
find Government Exhibit 462.
A. I have that.
William Eppright - Direct
Q. And do you recognize that?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. That is the sheet of paper which was removed from the
envelope that contains the handwritten notation: "Obey the
Constitution of the United States and we won't shoot you," and
on the reverse side, the Declaration of Independence.
Q. How do you know that that's the same sheet of paper that
you saw on April 21?
A. I recognize it, and it contains my initials and date.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit Government
Exhibit 462 at this time.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. GOELMAN: Also ask the Court to publish another
part of the stipulation about this being Mr. McVeigh's writing.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, we stipulate to the
writing on these documents as that being of Mr. McVeigh.
THE COURT: Yes, this refers to highlight, but it's
the whole thing; right?
MR. WOODS: Where it's handwritten. As I understand,
there's printed material, but it's handwritten, yes.
THE COURT: Yes, the particular part of it, the "Obey
the Constitution of the United States and we won't shoot," is
stipulated, agreed to be the writing of Timothy James McVeigh.
William Eppright - Direct
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent Eppright, how many different groups of papers were in
the envelope?
A. There were two separate, distinct groups of papers.
Q. And upon conducting a full examination, did you discover
whether there was anything inside these two groups of papers?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What was in there?
A. There were numerous documents of various sizes and also
smaller clippings and some documents that appeared to be
Xeroxed and some documents that were cut and pasted together.
Q. And did you examine each of those documents, smaller ones
and the ones that were the same size, individually?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. I want to show you a series of exhibits that reflect some,
but not all, the documents that were in that envelope. Would
you please see if you can find Government Exhibit 453.
A. I have that.
Q. Do you recognize it?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do you remember the first time that you saw that?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And when was that?
A. That was when I examined the contents of the envelope on
William Eppright - Direct
April 21, 1995.
Q. And how do you know that you saw that very same piece of
paper inside the envelope on April 21?
A. I recognize it, and it contains my initials and date.
Q. Is the appearance of this document any different now than
it was when you first saw it?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. How is it different?
A. It is darker in color, and it also contains additional
notations.
Q. Do you know why it's darker in color and contains
additional notations?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Why is that?
A. It is darker in color from the latent fingerprint
processing, and it contains additional notations from FBI
Laboratory personnel.
Q. Is there any other difference in the way the document
appears?
A. Yes, sir. The document contained yellow highlighting on
April 21, 1995, which does not appear today.
Q. And do you know why the yellow highlighting does not appear
today?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Why is that?
William Eppright - Direct
A. The highlighting does not appear -- the highlighting has
been removed by the latent fingerprint processing.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, Government moves to admit
Exhibit 453.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 453 is received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent Eppright, can you find 453A there as well.
A. Yes, sir, I have that.
Q. What's that?
A. That's a photograph that I directed to be taken of the
document as it appeared in the contents of the top stack of
papers.
Q. And is that actually how it appeared to you when you first
opened up the stack?
A. I -- the way it first appeared, it was on the other side.
Q. What do you mean "on the other side"?
A. It was -- this is a two-sided clipping, and as it first
appeared, it laid on the opposite side.
Q. And did you turn it over?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Do you recognize this as the other side?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit 453A, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
William Eppright - Direct
THE COURT: 453A is received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. What are we looking at here, Agent Eppright?
A. That's the photograph I directed to be taken of the
clipping as it appeared in the contents of the document.
Q. What do we see in the lower left-hand corner of the screen?
A. That's my hand in a white cotton glove.
Q. Why was your hand in a white cotton glove at the time?
A. I handled all the documents and all the evidence from the
vehicle with white cotton gloves to protect the evidence.
Q. Okay. I want to turn this particular picture around and
see if you can read the highlight and the unhighlighted
portions of this particular document. Can you read from the
top, please, into the record, Agent Eppright.
A. Yes, sir. The document reads: "Staffers" -- and the
highlighting begins -- "but the real value of our attacks today
lies in the psychological impact, not in the immediate
casualties," period. End of paragraph.
And then it continues, but is not highlighting. "For
one thing our efforts against the system gained immeasurably in
credibility," period. And then backing up, "credibility" is
highlighted.
The clipping continues, and this is also highlighted:
William Eppright - Direct
"More important, though, is what we taught the politicians and
the bureaucrats. They learned this afternoon that not one of
them is beyond our reach. They can huddle behind barbed wire
and tanks in the city, or they can hide behind the concrete
walls and alarm systems of their country estates, but we can
still find them and kill them."
Then the highlighting stops and the clipping
continues: "All the armed guards and bulletproof limousines in
America cannot guarantee their safety."
Then the highlighting begins again. And the article
continues: "That is a lesson they will not forget."
Q. Agent Eppright, does any part of this passage appear to be
double highlighted?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Which part?
A. The part that reads: "But we can still find them and kill
them," appears to be highlighted twice or twice highlighted
double.
Q. Had you ever seen this passage before April 21, 1995?
A. No, sir, I had not.
Q. Have you since determine the source of this passage?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. And what is it?
A. It's a passage from page 62 of The Turner Diaries.
Q. What is The Turner Diaries?
William Eppright - Direct
A. The Turner Diaries is a novel written by Andrew Macdonald.
Q. Do you see the document underneath the passage from The
Turner Diaries?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Did you later get a chance to see this up close?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
THE COURT: I think we'll take the recess before we go
to this next document.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down now --
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: -- and we'll have you back at the end of
the recess.
It's about midmorning, so I thought it would be a time
to break. And of course you know that I'm going to tell you
not to discuss the case or anything about it during the time of
this recess and maintain open minds and avoid anything outside
the evidence which would influence you in any way.
You're excused now, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:19 a.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, sometime today we may get to
the offering of evidence that is the fruit of the searches that
were the subject of the hearing we had before your Honor in the
spring of this year.
William Eppright - Direct
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: And rather than object each time, I'd like
the Court's -- if the Court would -- give me a continuing
objection to all of the items that we challenged at that time
on the many grounds that we raised in our papers, Fourth
Amendment, Fifth Amendment, Sixth Amendment, scope of the
warrant and so on.
THE COURT: Sure. That will help us to stipulate.
The Government agrees to that procedural step?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Stipulate to a continuing objection to
those items that were addressed in the motion to suppress which
I denied.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor, and that way we
won't make any objection or noise, they will just come --
THE COURT: I appreciate it.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Court's in recess, 20 minutes.
(Recess at 10:20 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:40 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 10:41 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please resume the stand.
You may continue.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you your Honor.
William Eppright - Direct
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent Eppright, will you take a look inside that folder,
please, and see if you can find the following Government's
Exhibits: 454, 456, 459, and 460.
A. I have those.
Q. Do you recognize each of those as documents that you first
saw in the envelope out of Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And are your initials on each of those documents?
A. Yes, sir. My initials and date are on each of those
documents.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, the Government moves to
admit Exhibits 454, 456, 459 and 460.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. GOELMAN: I also ask the Court to publish the
stipulation that any and all handwriting on these documents
belongs to Mr. McVeigh.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, that is our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right. And again, members of the
jury, it is agreed that the handwritten -- handwriting on these
documents as opposed to printing is -- that is, you know,
printing not done by hand -- is that of Timothy James McVeigh.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor. I have nothing
further.
William Eppright - Direct
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Agent Eppright. My name is Ron Woods. I
represent Terry Nichols.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You and I have never had a chance to talk about this, have
we?
A. No, sir, we have not.
Q. Now, you told the jury that you became an agent -- what
year was it?
A. I became an agent in 1986.
Q. Okay. And you've been in Dallas all the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And prior to that, were you working in Washington?
A. Yes, sir. I was working at our headquarters in Washington,
D.C.
Q. In some support position?
A. Yes, sir, various support capacities.
Q. Okay. And you graduated from Glassboro State College,
which has since been renamed; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Was it an accredited school before it was renamed?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
William Eppright - Cross
Q. And what's the new name of it?
A. The new name is Rowan University.
Q. How do you spell that?
A. R-O-W-A-N.
Q. And what type of work did you do in Washington?
A. I initially started in the identification division, and I
worked there for one year. Then I was assigned to the budget
and accounting division. Then I worked in the FBI Laboratory,
and I ended in the computer division.
Q. Okay. And you got your master's in forensic evidence?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At George Washington?
A. Forensic science.
Q. Forensic science. And a lot of agents do that, don't they?
Were you in classes with other agents?
A. At -- yes, sir, I was.
Q. And how many hours is that program?
A. It is 36 hours -- credit hours, I believe.
Q. Okay. Now, when you were at the Evidence Control Center,
is that the warehouse?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At 4th and Classen in Oklahoma City?
A. I believe that's the correct address.
Q. Okay. Was that the first time you had gone there that
Friday, the 21st?
William Eppright - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you give the jury a general description of that
warehouse at that time when you got there?
A. Yes, sir. When I arrived at the warehouse, the warehouse
contained rooms on the one side and an entry, a doorway and
then a -- attached to that as part of the warehouse was a
garage-type area with garage doors that could open and close.
Q. Okay. You had a large garage door that vehicles drove in
and out. That was one entry. Right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And next to it was a door that people could go in and out;
is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see a lot of evidence on the floors that was
separated by duct tape?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Okay. What else did you see in there?
A. I can't be certain, but I believe there might have been
another vehicle on the far side of the warehouse from where the
administrative office is and other individual rooms were
located. I believe there were boxes and things of that nature
again on the far side of that warehouse.
Q. Individual rooms: What are you referring to that are
inside that warehouse?
A. When you first entered the warehouse, the first room was --
William Eppright - Cross
I'll call it an administrative office, where --
Q. That's the one on the right?
A. Yes, sir. And the -- the additional rooms along that
wall --
Q. Were those really rooms, or was that just a big, plastic
curtain separating that area?
A. I was never in that area, and I can just recall that -- I
can't tell you whether there was one door or more than one door
but --
Q. Okay. Let's stick with what you can recall. On the 21st,
you see the vehicle Mercury Marquis brought in by a flatbed
trailer. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how do you get it off of the trailer?
A. The operator of the tow truck placed the vehicle in the
warehouse and placed the vehicle at the rear of the warehouse.
Q. Just lower the flatbed and it rolls off, or what?
A. No, sir. He manipulated, operated. I believe he took it
off the flatbed trailer and then with the tow truck got it back
into the rear of the warehouse.
Q. Because it was still locked up at that time, I take it.
You weren't driving it off the trailer and putting it someplace
in the warehouse?
A. No, sir. It was put at the rear of the warehouse by the
operator of the tow truck.
William Eppright - Cross
Q. So you had a truck and a flatbed trailer in there with the
car?
A. I believe just the -- no, they were both not in there.
They would have been too large. I believe that just the tow
truck placed the vehicle in the rear of the garage.
Q. Okay. Now, you were there when the car was opened up with
a Slim Jim?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. And can you describe for the jury what a Slim Jim is?
A. Yes, sir. A Slim Jim is a flat -- basically just a flat
tool and has a hook on one end. And it slides down between the
windows, and you attempt to grab the lock and unlock the car in
that fashion.
Q. Okay. Who did that?
A. That was done by personnel on the Chemical Residue Recovery
Team.
Q. And what was his name?
A. Special Agent Steve Burmeister was in charge of the
Chemical Residue Recovery Team.
Q. And you stood there and watched this operation, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And didn't you write up a memorandum of everything that
happened there?
A. Yes, I created documents of what occurred that day.
Q. Okay. And did Burmeister open up the door himself -- Agent
William Eppright - Cross
Burmeister? Let me phrase it that way.
A. I believe he was assisted with other members of his team.
I don't know if Agent Burmeister himself was the specific
individual that open the door, but it was members of his team.
Q. How many members were there?
A. I recall there was five or six.
Q. Okay. And then you told the jury that an air sample was
taken of the interior of the vehicle. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. I assume that had to be done right away as soon as the
doors opened before the air escapes and new air comes in?
A. I witnessed that as soon as the door opened they as quickly
as they could took air samples inside, yes, sir.
Q. What did they take air samples with?
A. I really wouldn't know.
Q. You observed it. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And you have a master's degree in forensic science?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. What does "forensic" mean?
A. "Forensic" is the scientific study of evidence in a
laboratory setting; and it's also the collection of evidence
which will in the future be studied in a scientific setting.
Q. And this was collection of evidence to be put -- to be
studied in the future; is that correct?
William Eppright - Cross
A. I am not an expert in their field of study and their field
of expertise, and I can only go by what they told me they were
doing.
Q. What did you observe them doing? What kind -- can you just
describe to the jury in general what kind of machines or
equipment they were using to take an air sample inside?
A. I recall they had evidence vacuum-cleaner-type equipment,
and I really don't recall what the equipment looked like that
they were using to take the air sample. I believe it was some
type of vacuum cleaner device, but I really don't recall. They
had a number of other pieces of equipment set up that they were
using.
Q. Have you reviewed your memorandum that you prepared that
explained that process?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Okay. Well, you told the jury that you retrieved the
envelope there. Is that correct?
A. I retrieved it from an agent of the Chemical Residue
Recovery Team, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Okay. Now, there was no name written on the front
of the envelope; is that right? Or no address, name and
address to whom it was being made?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And you opened it up and you mentioned to the jury
that it was in stacks, it was folded in thirds. Is that
William Eppright - Cross
correct? Like a letter, a business letter is folded to put in
an envelope?
A. Yes, sir. There were two distinct stacks, and each stack
was folded into thirds; and then there were papers in each
individual stack.
Q. Now, the way those were folded -- would that be appropriate
for placing an envelope for mailing, the way it was folded?
A. I don't know. I guess it could be. It seemed to contain
the different documents.
Q. Okay. You certainly took it out of a regular business
envelope; right?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. It was somewhat thick. Two stacks?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if you separated the stacks and you still had it folded
that way, it could be made in another envelope, same size. Is
that correct?
A. I guess it could be.
Q. Okay. And you pointed out to the jury that there were
numerous parts highlighted and you've only read one part
there -- is that correct -- a quotation from Turner Diaries?
A. That's correct.
Q. And there is some handwriting in there by Mr. McVeigh.
You've heard the stipulation as to whose handwriting that was.
A. Yes, sir.
William Eppright - Cross
Q. In that handwriting, did Mr. McVeigh ever mention Terry
Nichols?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Did he ever say that he and Terry Nichols were going to do
anything violent, in the handwriting?
A. No, sir, it did not.
MR. WOODS: Thank you very much.
THE COURT: Do you have any further questions?
MR. GOELMAN: Just one, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. In those documents that were in Mr. McVeigh's handwriting,
did he ever mention that he and anyone was going to do any act
of violence?
A. No, sir, he did not.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You may step down.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: United States would call FBI Agent
William West. Ms. Wilkinson will question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(William West affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: William K. West, W-E-S-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson?
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Mr. West. How are you doing?
A. Fine.
Q. Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how
you're employed?
A. I'm a special agent with the FBI.
Q. How long have you been an agent with the FBI?
A. 21 years. 22 years next month.
Q. Where do you work currently?
A. In the Kansas City office of the FBI.
Q. And how long have you been assigned to the Kansas City
office?
A. Approximately seven years.
Q. Can you tell us briefly about your educational background?
Where did you go to undergraduate university?
A. I went to college at the University of Missouri, in
Columbia, Missouri.
Q. What year did you graduate?
A. In 1971.
William West - Direct
Q. Did you attain -- did you also attend law school?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When did you do that?
A. I attended law school at the University of Missouri at
Kansas City and graduated from law school in 1975.
Q. Do you have any other special skills or training that you
use as an agent with the FBI?
A. Yes. I've been trained as a police instructor with the
FBI, and I also have received training as an airplane pilot,
Bureau pilot with the FBI.
Q. Have you also served in the capacity as a lawyer for the
FBI at times in your career?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Now, did you participate as one of the investigators after
the bombing in April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were you participating in the investigation on April 22,
1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Where were you that morning?
A. I was in Herington, Kansas.
Q. Did you participate in the search of Terry Nichols' house
that evening?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you have a court-authorized search warrant to do so?
William West - Direct
A. Yes, we had a search warrant.
Q. Did you review that search warrant before you participated?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When did you start working on the search of Mr. Nichols'
residence?
A. I entered the residence at approximately 8:00 in the
evening, 8:00 p.m.
Q. Do you recall where the first place was that you went to
search?
A. I searched primarily the store -- what we referred to as
the storage area of the house. It was one room, a 10-by-10
room in the house.
Q. Where was that located in Mr. Nichols' house?
A. It was on the southwest corner of the house.
Q. Now, did you find any documents in Mr. Nichols' storage
room?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Government's Exhibit
17 -- 1773, Photo 12. Do you see that in front of you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Or that photograph. Excuse me.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What does it depict?
William West - Direct
A. It -- one of the boxes of the box (sic) is the box where I
retrieved the documents I retrieved from Terry Nichols'
residence.
Q. This is a fair and accurate depiction of the boxes when you
saw them as you entered the storage room?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we offer Government's
Exhibit 1773, Photograph No. 12 of 15.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's received, may be shown.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. West, tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what
they're seeing.
A. Well, the box on the bottom of the picture that's the green
Quaker State box is a box that was located in the storage room
on the floor against the north wall. And that green Quaker
State box is the box that I took the documents from.
Q. Now, you told us you took some documents. Were you the
only agent that was searching that room?
A. No, ma'am. There were primarily three of us, Bob Meredith,
who was designated team leader for our team; Cullen Scott,
another agent, and myself.
Q. And did you also have a photographer assisting you at
times?
A. From time to time, a photographer came in the room, also.
William West - Direct
Q. Now, can you tell the jury what procedures you followed --
first of all, let me go back. You said you see some documents
from Mr. Nichols, is that right -- or from this box depicted in
the picture?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did all the documents you took that day come from this
Quaker State box depicted in Government's Exhibit 1773,
Photograph 12?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And when you took all those documents out, what did you do
with them?
A. I took the -- removed the documents from the box, placed
them in a plastic bag, in the plastic baggy also placed an
evidence card, which generally described the documents or the
items. I initialed that card, dated it; and it also had the
file number on it.
Q. What did you do with that card?
A. I put that card also in the plastic bag with the documents.
Then I sealed the bag and -- or closed the bag and sealed it
with evidence tape.
Q. What did you do once you sealed the bag with evidence tape?
A. We also had a log, a written log; and we entered on the log
the items, a brief description -- general description of items
that were in that bag.
Q. Did you initial the tape on the bag after you sealed it?
William West - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. Now, when you took the glove -- when you
took -- excuse me -- when you took the documents out of the
box, what were you wearing?
A. Well, I was wearing gloves.
Q. Why were you doing that?
A. To preserve the evidence. Everyone in the search team was
wearing gloves.
Q. Now, we're going to talk about a series of documents that
you seized from Mr. Nichols' house. Were all of those
documents placed in the same plastic bag that you just
described for the jury?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Could you look in the envelope in front of you and look for
Government's Exhibit 1707A, the plastic bag you just described.
A. I have it.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, ma'am. This is the plastic bag that I used to put the
documents that I retrieved from that cardboard box, put the
documents in this bag.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. Well, it has the evidence tag in the bag and also has my
initials, W.K.W., on the evidence tape that I used to seal the
bag with.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers 1707A, your Honor,
William West - Direct
the plastic bag.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. Did you say 1707?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, sir. 1707A.
THE COURT: Yes. Proceed.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. West, looking at that bag, does it have a Q number on
it?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. What is the Q number marked on that bag?
A. Q number is 194.
Q. You've reviewed the documents that you placed in that bag
prior to coming to court. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And are they all marked with the series of Q194?
A. That's correct. The bag has 194, and then each document
would have -- for example, the first document of that would be
194-1, the second document would be 194-2.
Q. Does that indicate to you that all those documents were the
same documents that you placed in the plastic bag at the time
of the search?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Now, before coming to court today, did you compare some of
the documents that you placed in Government's Exhibit 1707A --
that is, documents that you took from Mr. Nichols' house --
William West - Direct
with some of the documents that were found in Mr. McVeigh's car
at the time of his arrest?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell the jury what you found.
A. Some of the documents were identical in whole or just in
part, some of the documents had identical quotes, and then some
of the documents just dealt with the same general subject
matter.
Q. I want to start by showing you Government's Exhibit 459,
which has been previously moved into evidence.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I'm going to object to taking
witness time making a comparison of documents that the jury is
equally able to do for themselves.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Can you read the title of this document, Mr. West, for the
jury?
A. It's "U.S. Government Initiates Open Warfare Against
American People."
Q. Now, did you find a document with that same title, "U.S.
Government Initiates Open Warfare Against the American People,"
in Mr. Nichols' house.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. Let me show you what's been marked Government's
Exhibit 1707B.
William West - Direct
MS. WILKINSON: And, your Honor, we're using the B
because that's the clean documents. I'd move in at this time
1707 and 1707B, which is the actual documents and then a clean
copy.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent West, do you recognize 1707B?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a document you took from Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Does it have the Q number marking that you've previously
described?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. What does it say?
A. It's 194 ---Q number 194-10.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd move in Government's
Exhibits 1707 and 1707B.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Agent, what is -- you said that the 1707B is a clean copy?
What does that mean?
A. That means when the documents went to the lab. Apparently
they were processed. And they're hard to reproduce or make a
copy from. So you can make a copy from a, you know -- another
William West - Voir Dire
one, identical copy or clean copy.
Q. What do you mean "another one"? I mean, is 1707B the same
document as 1707, or is it different, or what? I don't
understand.
A. No, that's just -- as I understand it, that's just for the
screen -- for the computer. 1707B is a clean -- yeah, is a
clean copy of the document. It's a copy of the document.
Q. Where did that copy come from?
A. The original -- it's a copy of the original document.
Q. Let me try to understand the process. You seized a
document at Mr. Nichols' house and you gave it a number.
Correct?
A. I seized a document from the house. I placed it in a
plastic bag. I put the tag in the bag. I did not give it a
number.
Q. All right.
A. Except -- we gave it a number on the log, which was H18.
Q. That was the number on the log?
A. Right.
Q. And that's a document that is headed "APRA News." That's
what we're talking about. Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Then where did that document go from there? To Washington
to be processed?
A. That's correct.
William West - Voir Dire
Q. Now, before -- when it was processed, somebody wanted to
find out if there were fingerprints on it. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And -- so that's the kind of processing you're
talking about? Fingerprints?
A. That's correct.
Q. And from your experience as a special agent, you know that
pieces of paper can yield fingerprints if subjected to certain
processes. Correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And, for example, if I were to touch this white piece of
paper I'm holding up with my thumb and forefinger, it could be
chemically treated and the fingerprint would show up. Right?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor. This is beyond
the scope of voir dire.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: It's possible. Not always. You don't
always get fingerprints, but you may get a fingerprint.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I'm not trying to get you outside your area of expertise.
A. Right.
Q. But the next question I want to ask you: When it's subject
to processing with a chemical solution to cause fingerprints to
come up, then the document will be discolored. Correct?
A. It may become discolored, correct.
William West - Voir Dire
Q. Now, is it your understanding that the document that you
referred to as the clean copy is a copy that was made before
the fingerprints were taken, or is it a document --
A. I don't know how the clean copy was made. It may have been
enhanced from a copy, or -- I can't tell you that.
Q. So you can't tell us whether the clean copy was something
that the FBI went and got from a third party or whether it came
from Mr. Nichols' house or whether it came from the publisher
or where it came from. Right?
A. I'm not the one that could speak for that. I'm not aware
of us getting it from any third party, but --
MR. TIGAR: Well, I object to the copy, your Honor.
No objection to the original.
THE COURT: Objection sustained to what's described as
the clean copy.
MS. WILKINSON: May I ask a few more questions, your
Honor, just to lay the foundation for the next witness?
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. West, after you seized these documents, did you turn
them in to the search leader, Agent Jasnowski?
A. I personally didn't, but our team leader did.
Q. And do you know what she did with those documents after
they were turned in to her?
A. I know that they were loaded on a truck to be transported
William West - Direct
but don't know other than that.
Q. You don't know whether she made copies of those documents,
do you?
A. No, I don't.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may I retrieve the
originals from Mr. West so I can show them on the ELMO?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may I have one moment? I
think we may have those documents even on the computer, if I
could just have one moment to consult.
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
We do have it, your Honor. I'm sorry about that.
THE COURT: Are you saying that 1707 was scanned into
a computer?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes. The original. And I'm -- so was
1707B. But since they object to the clean copy, we'll just
show the 1707.
THE COURT: We're staying with 1707, but do you have
any objection to the use of this out of the computer?
MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor, not at all. It was just
that copy. That was my only objection.
THE COURT: I understand. So 1707 has been received
now without objection.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, now they're telling me we
William West - Direct
don't have it on the computer; so I'll go back to the ELMO and
show it on there.
THE COURT: I'll withhold any comment.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you. I appreciate it.
This is harder for me than the computer.
MR. TIGAR: May I cross the aisle and give assistance?
MS. WILKINSON: I think I've got it. Thank you.
THE COURT: Okay.
All right. 1707 is now being displayed.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. I'm showing you the top half. Do you recognize that, Agent
West?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And that's the document that you seized from Mr. Nichols'
house?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you compare that to the document from Mr. McVeigh's
car, Government's Exhibit 459, with the same title?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you determine?
A. The document had the article -- had the same title, and all
of the paragraphs of the article from Tim McVeigh's vehicle are
included in the article that I seized from Terry Nichols'
residence.
Q. Now I'm going to show you Government's Exhibit 460 that's
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been previously been entered into evidence.
MS. WILKINSON: Can we have the computer back, please.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And that's entitled "Waco Shootout Evokes Memory of Warsaw
'43." Did you find a document with that same title in
Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, ma'am. I found a document with the identical article
in the box on the floor of the storage room from Terry Nichols'
residence.
Q. Okay. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1702, which has
not been moved into evidence yet. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you review that document 1702 before coming to
court today?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Does that have the same Q number series that you described
previously?
A. Yes, although I can't read it too well on the screen.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I think I can give the
documents back and use the computer for the remaining
presentation.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Take a look at the document, Mr. West. Is that the
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document, Government's Exhibit 1702, that you took from
Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And did you compare those two documents, Government's
Exhibits 460 and Government's Exhibit 1702?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. Let me show you those two documents side by
side. Do you see that?
MS. WILKINSON: And can we publish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Well, it hasn't been admitted yet.
MS. WILKINSON: I'm sorry. I move to admit
Government's Exhibit 1702.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1702 is received. Now you may publish.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, on the left side there is 460, is that right,
Mr. West, from Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. That's correct.
Q. And on the right is Government's Exhibit 1702 from
Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Tell the jury how these two documents compare.
A. They are identical articles. The articles are the same.
Q. Can you look in that envelope that we left up there and
William West - Direct
look for Mr. McVeigh's T-shirt, Government's Exhibit 429.
A. I have it.
Q. And do you see the quote on the back of the T-shirt? Can
you take it out of the bag and look at the quote on the back of
the T-shirt?
A. I see it.
Q. Do you recognize that quote?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you see that quotation on any documents in Mr. Nichols'
house?
A. Yes, ma'am. It's contained -- the same quote is contained
in the article, "Waco Shootout -- Waco Shootout Evokes Memories
of Warsaw '43."
Q. All right. Let me publish Government's Exhibit 1702, if we
could, on the computer.
And if I enhance this for you or enlarge a portion,
can you show the jury where that quote is?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. Do you see it?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you use that pen up there, the black pen that's up on
top of your screen -- see that? Bring it down and circle the
quote for the jury, please. And read it into the record.
A. The quote is, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants," and it
William West - Direct
has, quote, "Thomas Jefferson."
Q. And that's on the same documents that's entitled, "Waco
Shootout Evokes Memory of Warsaw '43"?
A. Yes, at the bottom.
Q. Now, I want you to take a look at Government's Exhibit 462,
which has been previously moved into evidence.
MS. WILKINSON: Will you display that, please.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Do you recognize this, Mr. McVeigh's handwriting of "Obey
the Constitution of the United States and we won't shoot you"?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you review that before coming to court today?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you find that same quotation in some documents in
Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1704.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I'm going to have the same
problem with this. This is 1704A. I'll need to ask the
witness and move it to the ELMO.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent West, did you find Government's Exhibit 1704?
A. I did.
Q. Do you recognize that document?
William West - Direct
A. Yes, I do. This is one of the documents I took from the
cardboard box in the storage area at Terry Nichols' residence.
Q. Is it marked with a Q number?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What is the Q number?
A. Q194-5.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd move 1704 into
evidence.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: 1704 is received. You may display it.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Can you read the title of that document, please.
A. "Why the Armed Citizen in America."
Q. And did you find the "Obey the Constitution" quote in this
document?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you see it there?
A. Yes, I do.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I don't know if this will
work. Can he circle it on the computer screen and we print it
out?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: We'd like to do that.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
William West - Direct
Q. Could you circle it, Mr. West, for the jury. And read it
into the record, please.
A. "Obey the Constitution of the United States of America and
we won't shoot you."
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we move for the admission
of 1704B, which would be the printed copy with this marking.
THE COURT: All right. Is the equipment doing that?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I'm doing that.
MR. TIGAR: My faith in technology tells me not to
object to that, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, maybe you could explain to
the jury how that works. I think this is the first time we've
done that.
THE COURT: Well, explain how it works, I can't do
that. Explain what it's supposed to do, I can.
What happens is that we have equipment here which when
a witness has used this pen that has been referred to, to
circle on -- electronically on something that's on the screen
here, then we can stop it at that point. The machine then
prints out like a Polaroid print of that particular marking on
that exhibit, and then that can be a separate exhibit.
Did it work?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: It's processing.
MS. WILKINSON: We can move on, your Honor. If it
William West - Direct
doesn't, we can come back and try it again.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, Mr. West, I want to show you Government's Exhibit 456,
which has previously been entered into evidence. Did you
review that document before coming to court?
MS. WILKINSON: Could we have that on the screen?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: 456.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
MS. WILKINSON: 456.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. And that's entitled, "The American Response to Tyranny."
Is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Did you review this documents and determine if any of the
paragraphs from this document were contained in any of the
documents Mr. Nichols had at his house?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you find?
A. I found that the bottom three paragraphs, the bottom
right -- do you want me to circle those?
Q. Yes, please.
A. -- are identical to -- those three paragraphs are identical
to paragraphs taken from the article "U.S. Government Initiates
Open Warfare Against American Citizens."
William West - Direct
Q. And that was Government's Exhibit 1707 that you found in
Mr. Nichols house?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. I think I have it here. Is this the document -- is this
the document you found those three paragraphs in, 1707?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, during your search of Mr. Nichols' residence, did you
find other documents that discussed the significance of
April 19 and discussed the topic of Waco?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you pull out Government's Exhibit 1703, please.
A. I've got it.
Q. All right. And do you recognize that document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you take that from Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you take it from the Quaker State box that you
previously described to the jury?
A. Yes, I took it from the same box.
Q. Does it have a Q number on it?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. What is the Q number?
A. Q194-6.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's
Exhibit 1703.
William West - Direct
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1703 is admitted.
MS. WILKINSON: May I display it?
THE COURT: It may be shown, yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. West, could you clear the screen by just touching the
pen there on the side.
Is this the document that you found in Mr. Nichols'
house?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, can you show the jury with the pen where the date of
April 19 is discussed in this article and read it into the
record as you're circling it, please.
A. Well --
Q. Do you see that, or do you want me to enhance it?
A. If you could, make it a little larger -- as possible.
Q. How about that? Start over at the beginning of the
article.
A. Well, it starts at the beginning discussing April 19.
Q. Hold on one second, please. We're going to change the
color of the pen.
There we go.
Okay. Go ahead.
A. But the date April 19 of 1993 is discussed.
William West - Direct
Q. Start with April 1