The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Monday, November 10, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 70)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:35 p.m., on the 10th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
REID NEUREITER, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite
1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 1:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor. We call Ronald
Bain.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Ronald Bain affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
State your full name for the record and spell your
last name, please.
THE WITNESS: My name is Ronald L. Bain, B-A-I-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Please.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
Ronald Bain - Direct
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good afternoon, sir.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Could you tell us where you live.
A. I live in Marengo, Ohio.
Q. And how long have you lived in Marengo, Ohio?
A. I've been there about the nine months now.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes.
Q. How old are they?
A. Ten, seven, and three.
Q. Are you working --
A. Yes.
Q. -- near Marengo?
A. Yes, I've worked in Columbus, Ohio.
Q. What do you do in Columbus?
A. I'm a project manager for Ameritech.
Q. What is Ameritech?
A. Ameritech is a regional Bell operating company in that
region.
Q. When did you start working for Ameritech?
A. November 11 of '96.
Ronald Bain - Direct
Q. What had you been doing prior to that?
A. Prior to that I was a U.S. Army officer.
Q. Did you retire from the Army?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you retire?
A. September 30 of '96.
Q. What rank did you obtain before you retired?
A. I was a major in the Army.
Q. Did you have an MOS, area of specialty?
A. Yes, I was a Signal Corps officer, communications officer.
Q. How long were you in the Army before you retired?
A. I was on active duty for 16 years.
Q. Did you have any other service?
A. Yes, before that, I was in the National Guard for
three-and-a-half years.
Q. What was your last assignment you had when you were in the
Army?
A. My last assignment was as the executive officer of the U.S.
Army Recruiting Battalion in Oklahoma City.
Q. What does an executive officer for a recruiting battalion
do?
A. My responsibilities was to maintain and manage the
day-to-day operations of the headquarters, to make sure that
all the sections of the battalion headquarters provided support
to recruiters in the field.
Ronald Bain - Direct
Q. You said "recruiters in the field." Could you describe for
us the difference between the headquarters and the recruiters
in the field?
A. We had recruiting stations in Oklahoma and in Arkansas and
in northern Texas. And they did active recruiting out of the
recruiting stations. At battalion headquarters we did not do
active recruiting; we did processing of paperwork, processing
of waivers, supply operations, personnel operations, those sort
of things.
Q. When did you become the executive officer for the
headquarters Army Recruiting Battalion?
A. In August of 1994.
Q. Were you the executive officer on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Can you tell us prior to that date how often you were in
the office.
A. I was in the office every day.
Q. Did you know everyone who worked in that office?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Could you tell the jury where the office was located for
the U.S. Army Recruiting Battalion on April 19, 1995?
A. Our offices were on the fourth floor on the west end of the
building.
Q. Did you have officers in any other location?
A. We also had a company headquarters that occupied office
Ronald Bain - Direct
space on the third floor.
Q. You said "the building." Which building was that?
A. The Alfred P. Murrah Building.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 952, which has
previously been entered into evidence, the third floor. Do you
recognize that floor plan?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you circle the area where the Army had offices on the
third floor of the Murrah Building, please.
And how many people were located on the third floor
that worked for the Army?
A. At the time of the bombing, there were two people there.
Q. What did they do for the Army?
A. That was our company headquarters, so they were responsible
for the recruiting stations we had in Oklahoma City.
Q. Were the remaining personnel located on the fourth floor?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's take a look at that floor plan. Do you recognize
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I take it the green area marked Army, that's the area
where you had your office and the rest of the offices?
A. That's correct.
Q. Could you start from the left-hand side where it says
"Public Affairs" and tell us what section were housed in which
Ronald Bain - Direct
areas of this floor plan. You can use that pen, if you'd like.
A. Okay. The four offices -- there were actually four people
that occupied this area. There was an office here.
Q. "This area" meaning what's Public Affairs?
A. What I just circled.
Q. It's marked "Public Affairs"?
A. Yes, that was our Advertising and Public Affairs section.
There was four people, one in each of the smaller offices and
two in the larger office.
Q. If you could proceed to the right and tell us who was in
the office there.
A. The first circle I drew was there. That's the area where
our RA and reserve operations personnel were located.
Q. When you say "RA," what do you mean?
A. Regular Army.
Q. And if you could keep going toward the right.
A. And then in this area was our personnel section. This
office was the personnel officer's office, and then this area
where the NCOIC, the noncommissioned officer in charge, and the
other personnel that worked in the personnel section.
Q. Did you have both active-duty and civilian personnel
working in the Army office on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Let's proceed back, if we could, and tell the jury who had
their offices back in that back space.
Ronald Bain - Direct
A. In the Public Affairs space?
Q. No, back over to the right.
A. Here? I'm not sure I follow you.
Q. No, go further back.
A. Over in this area?
Q. I can't see your mark.
A. Okay.
Q. Can you do that again?
A. Right there.
Q. Yes, tell us who's located there.
A. There we had -- at that time there were two NCOs and two
civilian personnel that worked in that area.
Q. Which section were they assigned to?
A. In the Operations section.
Q. Okay. So that area was the Operations section; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, go back behind that, straight back towards the south
of the building.
A. Over in this area?
Q. Yes. Well, in that whole space that you haven't marked,
tell us who's housed there.
A. Okay. Right next to the personnel section, we had our
Supply section, and they occupied this area here, those two
offices. The battalion commander's office was in the corner.
Ronald Bain - Direct
My office was next to his.
Q. Could you put an X in your office?
A. Yes. It was right there.
Q. Did you have windows facing the south plaza?
A. Yes.
Q. Keep going, please.
A. Next to me was the sergeant major's office. Next to him
was our education services specialist that was assigned to the
battalion. And then this office here was our Budget section.
Then there's one other office in the middle of the complex
where the recruiter trainers were located. And then there was
a secretary in the middle of the open area between the offices.
Q. What rank was the battalion commander who sat there in the
back corner?
A. Lieutenant colonel.
Q. Were you in your office on the fourth floor of the Murrah
Building on the morning of April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. When did you arrive that morning?
A. I arrived there at approximately 8:25.
Q. Could you click your pen a couple times and clear that
screen. Just press the button on the side of the pen.
A. Okay.
Q. Keep going until you see all the marks go away.
Now, you told us you entered the building at
Ronald Bain - Direct
approximately what time?
A. Approximately 8:25.
Q. What did you do when you got there that day?
A. I went to my office to start process -- 'cause the
battalion commander was out of the office and he'd be returning
that day, so I started making a list of everything we needed to
have squared away for him as he got back.
Q. Did you see anyone as you arrived that morning?
A. Yes, I talked to Jona Gert, the battalion secretary.
Q. Did anyone else come into your office at that time?
A. Yes, Sergeant Evans, our -- he was the noncommissioned
officer in charge of the personnel section, brought in Sergeant
Titsworth to meet me.
Q. Why did Sergeant Evans bring in Sergeant Titsworth to meet
you?
A. Sergeant Titsworth was a new soldier being assigned to our
battalion. He had orders and was reporting for duty. He was
being assigned to the personnel section. And so Sergeant Evans
brought him in to introduce me because as the executive
officer, I supervised everyone in the headquarters, so he
wanted me to get to know the soldier.
Q. Was that Sergeant Titsworth's first day on the job?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Was he -- was Sergeant Titsworth alone in the office?
A. No, he was not.
Ronald Bain - Direct
Q. Who was with him?
A. His wife and his two daughters.
Q. Do you know how old his daughters were?
A. Five and three.
Q. Do you know the name of his youngest daughter?
A. Kayla.
Q. After you met Sergeant Titsworth, did you leave the
building that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. I had to return to my truck. I'd left some tax
documentation there, and I went back to my vehicle to get that
documentation.
Q. Where was your truck parked?
A. In the parking lot across the street from the front of the
federal building.
Q. Is that the parking lot that is in between the Murrah
Building and the Journal Record Building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That large parking lot there in front?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you return to the building before 9:00 a.m.?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you see anyone from the Army Recruiting office as you
were returning to the Murrah Building prior to 9:00 a.m.?
Ronald Bain - Direct
A. As I got off the elevators on the fourth floor, Sergeant
Lola Bolden, I met her and also Sergeant Bernard Jones. They
were getting on the elevators as I was getting off.
Q. So you saw them on the fourth floor?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you ask them where they were going?
A. I said -- I asked them where they were going. They said
they were going out to our warehouse to do some inventory.
Q. Where was the Army warehouse located in Oklahoma City?
A. It was in the GSA warehouse, which is on the east side of
the city.
Q. Do you know whether Sergeants Bolden and Jones made it to
the warehouse that day?
A. I know for a fact they did not.
Q. Was Sergeant Lola Bolden killed in the blast that day?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Do you know where they recovered her body?
A. Her body was recovered in the parking garage.
Q. Where was Sergeant Bernard Jones at the time of the blast?
A. He was with Sergeant Bolden on the first floor of the
building.
Q. And he survived the blast?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Let's go back to when you were on the fourth floor after
you spoke to Sergeant Bolden and Sergeant Jones. What did you
Ronald Bain - Direct
do?
A. I returned to my office to make a phone call.
Q. What happened next?
A. Next thing I recall, I recall hearing a very loud noise,
and I thought perhaps our Supply section was moving some boxes
on a handcart and it had crashed into the wall. I remember --
Q. Go ahead.
A. I remember reacting to that, just briefly; and then the
next thing I knew, I was getting up off my floor.
Q. Did you have any idea what had happened at that time?
A. No.
Q. What did you see when you got up from the floor?
A. The office -- the windows in my office, which overlooked
the plaza, were gone; and I looked out over the plaza, and the
ground was all buckled and the plaza was covered with debris.
Q. What did you do?
A. I turn the other way, to look towards the center of the
building, and I noticed I could look all the way through the
building. The walls were gone.
Q. Was part of the Army Recruiting office gone?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do after you saw that?
A. My first reaction was to find out if Jona was okay, so I
called out her name; and I heard an answer, but I couldn't find
her in the debris. And she told me she was under her desk.
Ronald Bain - Direct
Q. What did you do for her?
A. I got down on my hands and knees and asked her to crawl out
to me, but there was glass everywhere; so I got something -- I
believe it was a ceiling tile -- and I cleaned it off and slid
it to her so she could get out.
Q. Were you concerned about her ability to get out from
underneath the desk?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. She has multiple sclerosis; and she's able to walk, but
she's very frail.
Q. What happened?
A. She crawled out; and I said, "Jona, are you okay?"
And she said, "Yes."
And I said, "Wait here. I'll come back for you."
Q. Did you leave the area to look for others?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see anyone as you left?
A. After I took care of Jona and as I made my way toward the
other part -- or towards personnel section, there was a woman
standing there and she was screaming, "Where's my baby?"
Q. Did you know who she was at the time?
A. No.
Q. Did you later learn who she was?
A. Yes.
Ronald Bain - Direct
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Who was she?
A. Mrs. Titsworth.
Q. Was she there with one of her children?
A. Yes.
Q. The older one or the younger one?
A. The oldest one.
Q. When you saw Mrs. Titsworth at that time, did you see her
youngest daughter, Kayla?
A. No.
Q. What did you do next?
A. As I made my way through the debris to the personnel
section, I met Sergeant Davenport. He was the noncommissioned
officer in charge of our Operations section.
Q. That's the section that you told us was right here in the
center of the office?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say to you?
A. He really didn't say anything to me. I told him to get
accountability of his people.
Q. Could you tell if he had any injury at that time?
A. Yeah. He didn't have any injuries.
Q. Did you see anyone else at that time?
Ronald Bain - Direct
A. Then I made my way to the personnel section, and I saw
Sergeant Evans, the NCOIC of the personnel section.
Q. Did he have any injuries?
A. Yes.
Q. What injuries could you see?
A. He had -- his back was bloody and he had glass in his back.
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you instruct him to do?
A. I told him also to get accountability of his people.
Q. Did you continue to look for other personnel who may have
survived?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went to -- the personnel officer was Captain Lawrence
Martin, and I went to his office, or what used to be his
office.
Q. What did you find when you got there?
A. At that time he was sitting in a chair, and he had a bad
head wound and his right hand was nearly severed and blood was
squirting out of his wrist.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I object to this detail.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. What did you do?
Ronald Bain - Direct
A. I knew at that time that we had to provide some sort of
emergency medical care. And we had a first-aid kit in the
supply room, but looking for it was pointless. And I knew we
had to have a tourniquet to stop the bleeding, so I took my tie
off. I was wearing a tie that day, and I don't recall
specifically if I handed it to someone else and they put it on
his wrist, but the tie was on his wrist to stop the bleeding.
Q. Did you do anything about his head injury?
A. Yes. I knew he needed to have some sort of bandage, and
the cleanest thing I could think of was the white, cotton
T-shirt I had on --
Q. So what did you do?
A. -- so I took off my uniform shirt and used my T-shirt to
bandage his head.
Q. Did Sergeant Davenport come back into the area at that
time?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened?
A. He told me he couldn't find any of his people.
Q. And those were the folks in the operations center?
A. Yes.
Q. Closest to the windows of the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. One of the other soldiers -- made my way to another soldier
Ronald Bain - Direct
who was badly injured. That was Sergeant Marilyn Travis. She
was bent over her desk, and she was in extreme pain and she
also was covered with blood. And I knew we had to bandage her
as well.
Q. So what did you do?
A. I got another -- I asked Sergeant Davenport for his T-shirt
and bandaged her as well.
Q. Did you try to get these people out of the building for
medical attention after giving them the bandages?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. We started pairing up who was ambulatory, who wasn't and
who could help each other out, and so we started just pairing
up and making our way out of the building toward the stairwell.
Q. How did you get Captain Martin out of the building?
A. I asked Anthony Scott, who worked in our Supply section who
was there -- and I asked him and Captain Martin if they could
both get out together, and they said they could, so they made
their way out.
Q. Was Sergeant Travis able to get herself out of the
building?
A. No, she was not.
Q. What did you do?
A. We had a bulletin board in the office that had all of our
names on it, the commander, executive officer, etc. And that
Ronald Bain - Direct
of course had fallen off the wall. It was off the wall, so I
turned it over, cleaned it off, and then I didn't help carry
her out, but four other individuals carried her out to the
stairwell.
Q. Did you help anyone get out of the building, yourself?
A. Yes, I went back to Jona and helped her out.
Q. What did you do with those folks after you got them out of
the building?
A. We took them to the curb, which -- along the building which
ran behind the building. And there were already ambulances
there, so some of them started -- got loaded up right away; and
the rest of them either laid down or sat down and waited.
Q. Did you speak to them?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say?
A. I said, "Hang in. Help's on its way."
Q. Did you go back in the building?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went back to the fourth floor. There was -- when we went
out, there was some people who were -- weren't injured and
stayed behind to look for the people we couldn't find, so I
went back to assist.
Q. Did you find anyone else?
A. I did not personally.
Ronald Bain - Direct
Q. At sometime during this, were you able to see your car in
the parking lot across the street?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you see it from the fourth floor?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you notice?
A. It was engulfed in flames.
Q. Were all the cars in that parking lot engulfed in flames?
A. No.
Q. Were some of them?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after you determined that you couldn't find anyone
else in the building, did you see any rescue workers in the
building?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did you see?
A. A fireman was -- firemen had already been in the building,
but there was one on the fourth floor with us.
Q. Did you tell him about the people you could not account
for?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say?
A. I said -- well, he told us we needed to leave the building.
And I said, "There are five people here I can't find, a man and
four women."
Ronald Bain - Direct
Q. And when you got outside of the building that second time,
did you try and account for all your people?
A. Yes.
Q. Had any one of your personnel or people located any of the
missing?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened?
A. When I went back into the building to look for people,
Sergeant Evans found Kayla Titsworth.
Q. And what was her condition when he --
A. She was dead.
Q. Did he bring her out of the building?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to find the others that were missing that
day?
A. No.
Q. Did they all die in the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you learn that several days later?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were they found?
A. They were found in the rubble at the base of the building.
Q. Now, after April 19, 1995, was the Army Recruiting office
headquarters able to resume operations immediately?
A. No.
Ronald Bain - Direct
Q. Why not?
A. All of our computer systems and files in -- on the fourth
floor, part of those had fallen with the rest of the building;
and the rest were destroyed, and we weren't able to recover
them.
Q. Did the Army send in additional personnel to help you begin
operations again?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if I show you Government's Exhibit 1039, a chart with
the personnel from the Army Recruiting office who died that
day, could you identify them for the jury and tell them what
they did for the Army Recruiting office?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd move in Government's
Exhibit 1039 and ask that Mr. Tongate put it in front of the
jury.
MR. TIGAR: Subject to our earlier discussion.
THE COURT: All right. It's received.
Yes, you may display it.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Major Bain, before we begin, you told the jury earlier that
when you spoke to the firefighter, you said you were missing
five people; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And there are seven people up on that chart that is Exhibit
Ronald Bain - Direct
1039. Can you explain the discrepancy?
A. When I told the firefighter, I told him it was six, one man
and four women -- correction, one man and five women.
Q. Why do we have a discrepancy of one person here?
A. I saw Sergeant Bolden and Sergeant Jones at the elevator, I
wasn't sure, I hoped that they had gotten out of the building.
Q. You were wrong about whether they had survived?
A. That's correct.
Q. Could you step down and keep your voice up and tell the
jury the name of each individual and what they did for the
Army.
A. Lola Renee Bolden was a sergeant first class. She was our
supply sergeant.
Karen Gist Carr worked in our Advertising and Public
Affairs section. She was an advertising assistant.
Peggy Holland worked in our Advertising and Public
Affairs section, also. She had recently changed jobs to be our
information management officer.
John Moss was the chief of our Advertising and Public
Affairs section.
Victoria Lee Sohn was sergeant first class, worked for
our Operations section.
Delores Stratton worked in our Operations section.
She was a personnel clerk.
And Wanda Lee Watkins worked in our personnel section.
Ronald Bain - Direct
She was a personnel clerk, also.
Q. You can take your seat.
MS. WILKINSON: We have no other questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Major Bain.
A. Sir.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help out Terry Nichols.
I wanted to ask you a few questions, sir, about what
you saw on the north side of the building during the time you
were working there. I understand that your first -- your first
duty that day was to your fellow soldiers --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- and the others; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's what you were principally engaged in was trying
to help them; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But were you able to see some of the things out on the
north side of the building having to do with the damage that
was wrought by the blast?
A. Yes, sir.
Ronald Bain - Cross
Q. Now, the first thing, sir, that you remember seeing -- or
one thing you remember seeing is your car on fire; is that
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it your -- did you usually park on that parking lot
that's between the Murrah Building and the Journal Record
Building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at the time that you saw your car on fire there, could
you see firemen attempting to put out those blazes?
A. I didn't -- it was not a high priority to me. I didn't
notice.
Q. I understand.
A. I did not notice anyone out there at the time.
Q. Okay. And after you finished doing the rescue work and the
helping work that you described for us here, did you leave the
scene of the Murrah Building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And when was the first time that you came back to
the Murrah Building after the 19th?
A. I'm not really sure how soon it was after that. It must
have been four or five days. I really don't recall.
Q. So by that time -- by the time you came back, the rescue
workers and the work that they were doing was very far along,
the situation --
Ronald Bain - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. The situation had changed a great deal from the way it was
when you first left there; is that fair to say?
A. The rescue operation was well under way. The landscape had
not changed that significantly.
Q. All right. And did you ever get your car back? Did you
ever go look for it?
A. We were told we needed to go to a salvage yard there in
Oklahoma City and take our title with us. If we did so, we
could sign it over.
Q. Okay. When you went back there on the -- that four or five
days later, whatever it was, had the cars in that parking lot
been moved?
A. I believe so, sir; yes, sir.
Q. And you don't -- you don't know today exactly when that was
done or how; is that fair?
A. I know how it was done. I don't know when it was done, no.
Q. The when is the part I was asking, but all right.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, very much; I appreciate your
answering my questions.
No further questions.
MS. WILKINSON: There's one thing I forgot, your
Honor, make a record.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Ronald Bain - Redirect
Q. Major Bain, before you came to court today, did I ask you
to place the names of the individuals who had died for the Army
on the floor plan where they had been at the time of the
bombing?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we would move in 952D and
952C, although we don't want to display them at this time.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Received.
MS. WILKINSON: The witness is excused, your Honor.
THE COURT: Excused?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we would call Gregory Pfaff.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Pfaff.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Gregory Pfaff affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Gregory Michael Pfaff, P-F-A-F-F.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Pfaff, where do you live?
A. Harrisonburg, Virginia.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any kids?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. I have one daughter that's five and a half.
Q. And what do you do out there in Harrisonburg?
A. I own a delicatessen.
Q. What did you do before you owned a delicatessen?
A. I owned a business, Lock & Load Distributors.
Q. What kind of business was Lock & Load Distributors?
A. Sold special-application ammunitions.
Q. What exactly are special-application ammunitions?
A. Special-application ammunitions are ammunitions that aren't
used for target shooting or hunting. It's more of a tracers,
incendiaries, armor-piercing bullets, things of that nature.
Q. Self-defense and military-type ammunitions?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you sell this ammunition?
A. At gun shows.
Q. And what exactly are gun shows?
A. In a layman's terms, gun shows are a flea market for
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
firearms, ammunition, and supplies of that nature.
Q. And how many gun shows did you go to a year when you were
in the Lock & Load business?
A. I would do approximately 45 to 48 gun shows a year.
Q. Were those shows held during the week or on weekends?
A. They were all on the weekends, that I know of.
Q. Mr. Pfaff, do you know Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you first meet him?
A. It was the early part of 1992.
Q. And where did you meet him?
A. Monroeville, Pennsylvania.
Q. How many times have you seen Tim McVeigh?
A. Counting the trial, it was five.
Q. So before the trial, you saw him four times?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were all those times at different gun shows?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. McVeigh except for at a gun show?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember the last time that you saw Tim McVeigh,
Mr. Pfaff?
A. Last time was in 1993.
Q. When about in 1993?
A. I don't know exactly when, but it was after the start of
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
Waco.
Q. How do you remember that it was after the start of Waco
when you last saw Mr. McVeigh?
A. He had a conversation with me about Waco and about going
down to the siege and being there while the siege was on.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh express any opinion to you about what was
going on at Waco?
A. Yes. He stated that it was -- the government was
infringing on civilians' rights and that this shouldn't be
happening and that this could be the start of the government
coming door to door, collecting weapons from the citizens.
Q. And did he predict civil unrest as a result of Waco?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe the last time that you physically saw Mr. McVeigh.
Did you speak to him on the phone after that point?
A. Yes.
Q. About when was that?
A. That was around the fall of 1994.
Q. Where did you speak to Mr. McVeigh on the phone?
A. I was at my delicatessen.
Q. How many phone lines do you have at your delicatessen?
A. Two.
Q. Were you still in the gun show business back in the fall of
1994?
A. I was somewhat phasing it out.
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
Q. What does that mean, "somewhat phasing it out"?
A. I still had a certain amount of inventory left that I was
willing to get rid of. I no longer really went to gun shows at
that time and no longer took out advertisements to sell wares;
but clients that knew where I was, I was willing to sell what I
had.
Q. Tell us about that conversation you had with Mr. McVeigh on
the telephone.
A. Went through the normal pleasantries of "Hi, how you doing"
type of things, hadn't talked to him in a while, asked him how
he was doing. And he told me he was living in Arizona.
Q. Okay.
A. Went on further, just regular type of conversation; and
then he asked me if I was still in the gun business. And I
stated to him that I was somewhat phasing it out, that the
delicatessen was becoming a, you know -- a viable way of life.
And he asked me if I can get him any det cord.
Q. Now, what is det cord?
A. Det cord is -- detonation cord is a high-explosive primary
charge used to set off a huge explosive charge or multiple
explosive charges simultaneously. It's the primary source to
set that off.
Q. What did you tell Mr. McVeigh when he asked if you could
get him det cord?
A. I told him I didn't have it and I couldn't ship it in the
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
United States.
Q. What was his response?
A. See if I could -- he asked me if I could try to locate
some. And I told him that I would see what I could do and to
give me a call in about seven or ten days or so.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh indicate to you why he was looking for det
cord?
A. No.
Q. When you told Mr. McVeigh to give you a call back, did you
intend to make any efforts to acquire det cord?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you tell him that?
A. Because I never wanted to turn off a potential customer.
He bought things from me before, and I still had this inventory
that I thought someday he might be interested in purchasing
some of.
Q. Did you make any efforts to try to locate det cord?
A. No.
Q. And did you hear from Mr. McVeigh again?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. It was about seven to ten days later.
Q. Where were you at that time?
A. I was at the delicatessen.
Q. Can you tell us about that conversation.
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
A. There was again normal beginning telephone pleasantries,
"Hi, how you doing." He asked me if I had gotten him any det
cord, and I replied that I did not. The conversation somewhat
ended after that.
Q. And during these two phone calls, did Mr. McVeigh ever talk
to you in any kind of code?
A. No, sir. It was normal tones as we're speaking now.
Q. Mr. McVeigh never whispered to you during this conversation
or anything?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever supply Tim McVeigh with det cord?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever refer him to anyone else or anyplace else
where he might be able to acquire det cord?
A. No, sir.
Q. And after it became clear that you were not going to be a
source of det cord for Mr. McVeigh, did he ever contact you
again?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Pfaff, what's the name of your delicatessen in
Harrisonburg, Virginia?
A. Brooklyn's Delicatessen.
Q. And was that its name back in September, October of 1994?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you look inside -- do you have a folder up there?
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
A. No, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: One moment, please.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you look and see if you can find Government Exhibit
1888. What's been marked Government's Exhibit 1888 for
identification, you find that?
A. No, sir.
Q. I think -- does that have a number on the tag in the lower
right-hand corner, Mr. Pfaff?
A. 555.
Q. Okay. There should be another one in there that says 1888.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you turn to the second page of that, please. Without
reading from that document, 'cause it's not yet in evidence,
can you see if you recognize the secondary number for the
Brooklyn Delicatessen.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what is that telephone number?
A. (703) 433-3978.
Q. Do you also see what your home number was in the fall of
1994 on the right-hand column on page 2 of Government Exhibit
1888?
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was your home telephone number in the fall of
1994?
A. (703) 289-6958.
Q. Mr. Pfaff, when Tim McVeigh called you and indicated that
he was living in Arizona, did you have any way of verifying
that he was indeed calling from Arizona?
A. No, sir.
Q. So for all you know, he could have been calling from
anywhere?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know what Terry Nichols' home phone number was in
the fall of 1994, Mr. Pfaff?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know Terry Nichols?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know anyone named Daryl Bridges?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you mentioned that you used to do about 45 to 48 gun
shows every year; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you also a customer of gun shows during various
periods of your life?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at any of these gun shows, did you ever buy or sell det
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
cord?
A. No, sir.
Q. At any of these gun shows, did you ever see anyone selling
det cord?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever see Primadet for sale at any of these gun
shows?
A. No, sir.
Q. You ever seen any kind of electric or non-electric blasting
cap for sale at any of these gun shows?
A. No, sir.
Q. And in all your years of selling and shopping at gun shows,
have you ever seen ammonium nitrate for sale?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you described gun shows as kind of a flea market for
guns and ammunition; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen anyone selling any kind of plant food at
a gun show?
A. No, sir. Most of those shows were regulated to just
gun-type of items that people can bring there to sell.
Q. Have you ever heard of anyone selling any kind of
horticultural product at all at a gun show?
A. No, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Court's indulgence?
Gregory Pfaff - Direct
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pfaff.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help out Terry Nichols.
When's the first time that you ever worked at a gun
show?
A. First time I worked one was in 1990.
Q. And you began phasing out of the gun show business when?
A. In the latter part of '93. I actually kept the business in
operation. I just stopped going to gun shows in around June of
'93.
Q. Now, did you attend gun shows all over the country?
A. On the East Coast.
Q. Did you ever work any gun shows in the Midwest?
A. No, sir.
Q. Not in the West?
A. No, sir.
Q. And did you ever work any in Florida?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Now, you described the gun shows as a kind of a flea
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
market; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever see books for sale at gun shows?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see political literature at gun shows?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see people walking around in uniforms at gun shows?
A. Can you clarify?
Q. Military-style clothing?
A. Some folks did, yes.
Q. And were some of these folks not obviously members of the
military, just folks that liked to dress up that way?
A. I could not answer that.
Q. Could not. Now, you sold ammunition?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of ammunition did you sell?
A. Special-application ammunition.
Q. And what is that? What kind did you sell?
A. That is tracer, incendiaries, pre-fragmented-core bullets,
things of that nature.
Q. Now, are these things that you'd use for target practice?
A. No, sir.
Q. What do you use them for?
A. Self-defense.
Q. All right. And, now, you mentioned to us that you -- well,
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
at gun shows, you've seen military surplus items for sale;
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You see ammo cans, empty ammo cans?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. See other military surplus things? Ever see picks and
shovels?
A. I can't specifically say that I have, but I'm sure that
they were there.
Q. Did you see clothing for sale?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. By the way, you've never met Terry Nichols; right?
A. No, sir.
Q. And to your knowledge, you've never spoken to him in your
life; is that right?
A. To my knowledge, I've never spoken to him.
Q. You've seen his pictures in the paper; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he's sitting right there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so you're looking at him; you're sure you've never seen
him; correct?
A. As far as I can recall, I've never met the man.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that you had discussed with
Timothy McVeigh Waco; correct?
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. Mr. McVeigh told you that he had crawled up to the
perimeter fence around Waco and crawled back without being seen
by the federal agents; correct?
A. That's what he stated.
Q. He stated that he sat in his car in Waco selling bumper
stickers; correct?
A. I'm not sure if that's the exact terminology; but, yes, he
was selling bumper stickers at Waco, yes.
Q. And he stated that he -- that this could be the start of
the government coming house to house to retrieve weapons; is
that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And when he said this, he was very angry, wasn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did he appear serious about his attitude towards Waco?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you told us about a telephone call that you had with
Mr. McVeigh; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when he called you up, you have no way of knowing
where he called from; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And if -- wherever it was that he called from, whoever the
subscriber was -- you do not know who the subscriber was to the
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
telephone; right?
A. I don't know.
Q. To find out who called you and what was said, you're the
logical person to ask; would you agree with that?
A. Excuse me?
Q. To find out who it was that called you and what was said,
you're the logical person to ask; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you said that he wanted det cord; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you know that Mr. McVeigh had been to gun shows in the
past?
A. I've only seen him at the gun shows that I attended.
Q. So, then, that's the only time you've seen him?
A. Correct.
Q. Did he say why it was that he would be calling you, a gun
show person, to obtain det cord?
A. No, he did not state why he called me.
Q. Did you tell him, "Mr. McVeigh, if you're looking for det
cord, don't call me because you can't buy it at gun shows"?
A. He did not call me at a gun show, sir. He called me at the
delicatessen.
Q. No, no, I understand. When Mr. McVeigh called you, did you
say to him, in words or substance, "Don't call me about det
cord, Mr. McVeigh, that sort of thing isn't sold at gun shows"?
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
A. No, sir. I'm running a business, and I didn't have time to
explain everything to Mr. McVeigh. He asked me if I could get
the det cord. I told him that I would see what I could do.
Q. Right.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you told him that you would see what you could do, but
you didn't intend to do anything; right?
A. No, sir.
Q. So you -- what would you call it, you exaggerated?
A. No, sir.
Q. You puffed?
A. No, sir. I don't understand what you mean by "puffed."
Q. Well, you told him you intended to do something that you
didn't intend to do. How would you describe it?
A. I described it as not turning off a potential customer.
Q. Now, when he called you, he told you he was living in
Arizona; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he said -- what did he say, "I want det cord"?
A. No, sir. He -- we had the normal pleasantries of a normal
conversation. I asked him how he was doing. He told me he was
living in Arizona. Then he asked me if I was still in the gun
business. I told him that I was somewhat phasing that out.
Then he asked me if I could get him any det cord.
Q. He said, "Can you get me det cord"; is that what you said?
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
A. I don't know if that's the exact words from what you're
saying; but, yes, he told me could I get him det cord.
Q. You told him it could not be shipped in interstate
commerce; correct?
A. I said it could not be shipped in the United States.
Q. And then he said, "I'll drive there and get it"; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, this was the first conversation you had with him --
right -- about the det cord, the one you're talking about now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he called seven to ten days later; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was still looking for det cord; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he offer to drive across the country in that connection
again?
A. No, sir.
Q. And what did you tell him, that you hadn't been able to get
any?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, the first time that you did business with Mr. McVeigh,
did you buy something from him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever buy something from him?
A. Yes, sir.
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
Q. Did you buy blast simulators from him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what are blast simulators?
A. It's pretty much the size of an M-80. It makes a loud
bang. It's to simulate a blast.
Q. Did you buy atropine from him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you take atropine from him on consignment?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is atropine?
A. Atropine is a reimpregnation compound to thwart chemical
warfare.
Q. That's a chemical substance?
A. I believe so.
Q. How do you use it?
A. You inject it into your leg, from what I understand.
Q. Pardon me?
A. From what I understand, if you're ever hit with chemical
warfare, you would to be to inject this into your leg.
Q. Did you sell the atropine?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it in injectable form?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In little injection bottles like you see in a doctor's
office?
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
A. It was in a syringe.
Q. In syringes. So Mr. McVeigh gave you these syringes on
consignment, and you sold them; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you sell them?
A. At a gun show.
Q. And after you sold the syringes that Mr. McVeigh had given
you -- excuse me, containing this substance, what did do you
with the money?
A. Well, I kept the profit that was mine, and then I sent him
a check.
Q. Did you sell anything else -- did you have any other
business transactions with Mr. McVeigh?
A. I sold him armor-piercing incendiary bullets.
Q. I'm sorry, armor piercing?
A. Incendiary bullets.
Q. I see. Did he once show you a piece of steel at a gun
show?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was to demonstrate the difference between what an
armor-piercing round would do and a standard round; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, other than the blast simulators that you got and the
atropine that you had on consignment, is there any other
business that you had with Mr. McVeigh?
Gregory Pfaff - Cross
A. He gave me 25-millimeter training round. He gave me some
of his training manuals, and I believe I might have bought some
smoke grenades from him.
Q. Did he ever give you any political literature?
A. No, sir.
Q. And other than the Waco situation, did you ever discuss
politics with him?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. And after Mr. McVeigh called you that second time, that's
the last you ever saw him until you came to be a witness in his
trial; is that correct?
A. The last I saw him was in 1993.
Q. 1993?
A. Correct, sir.
Q. Excuse me. After the telephone conversation in 1994,
that's the last you spoke to him?
A. Correct.
Q. That's the last time you ever spoke to him?
A. Correct.
Q. And you never saw him after 1993?
A. Correct.
Q. And you've never seen or spoken to Mr. Nichols?
A. Correct.
MR. TIGAR: I have no further questions. Thank you.
MR. GOELMAN: No questions.
THE COURT: Do you have any redirect?
The witness is excused, then, I trust.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed? Agree to excuse the witness?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we would recall Joanne
Thomas.
THE COURT: Miss Thomas has already been sworn before.
When she came before.
If you'll resume the stand under the oath you took
earlier.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
(Joanne Thomas was recalled to the stand.)
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I proceed, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, sir.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Welcome back, Miss Thomas.
A. Thank you.
Q. I know you were here last week, but if you would just
remind the jury where you're from and what you do.
A. My name is Joanne Thomas. I'm from the Omaha division,
Joanne Thomas - Direct
Omaha, Nebraska. I'm a financial analyst there.
Q. And the jury has seen a number of people from the FBI.
You're not a special agent; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, when you were here last week with us, you showed us
one of the items that you found in the living room closet of
Mr. Nichols' home when you helped execute that search warrant.
That was Government Exhibit 250; correct?
A. Right.
Q. And you told us that you placed that notebook in a plastic
bag which was received in evidence as Exhibit 250B; is that
correct?
A. Right.
Q. Did you also find other items in that same closet which you
put in the same evidence bag?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And were they all given Q numbers that started with Q156 to
indicate they came out of that same bag?
A. Yes.
Q. I'd like to ask you to find Government Exhibit 1818 and
2000 in the folder that's been handed to you.
A. Yes, I have them.
Q. Do you recognize those items?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And were those among the items that you also found in the
Joanne Thomas - Direct
living room closet and put into that evidence bag admitted as
250B?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's start with Government Exhibit 1818. What is that,
please.
A. That's a Michigan driver's license application.
Q. And it's got some pieces of paper there, as well as
something else?
A. Yes. There is a driver's -- Michigan driver's license with
a photo attached to the back -- with a photograph on it.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Pardon me.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. And does it have a Q number on the particular item that
starts with Q156?
A. Yes, it does, 156-7.
Q. What's the number for the record?
A. Q156-7.
Q. And that's among the items that you found in Mr. Nichols'
closet?
A. Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers Exhibit 1818.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I'm having trouble finding it
here. May I just look at it, please.
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 1818.
Joanne Thomas - Direct
Okay.
No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1818 is received.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Judge, may I retrieve the exhibit,
just to display part of it on the ELMO?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you.
Thank you, ma'am.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Ma'am, just focusing for a moment on the left side of that,
this is a Michigan driver's license application for Terry Lynn
Nichols; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. ORENSTEIN: I'm sorry. Could we have the display,
please.
Thank you.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Just to show the title there, it says, "Michigan Driver's
License Application"; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And on the left side, it shows it's for Mr. Terry Lynn
Nichols; is that right?
A. That's true.
Q. And attached on the right side, there's a corner of a
Michigan driver's license; is that true?
Joanne Thomas - Direct
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Now, it's a little difficult to read from this. Is that
also in the name of Terry Lynn Nichols?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And there is a photograph of Mr. Nichols in the corner?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if I could ask you to turn to Exhibit 2000. Do you
have that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What's that?
A. It's a receipt from Wal-Mart in Manhattan, Kansas.
Q. Is that among the items that you found in the closet in
Mr. Nichols' living room on April 22?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you know if there were other receipts found in different
parts of the house?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. And you don't know specifically what all those items were?
A. No, I don't.
Q. But this one came from the closet?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Does it have a Q number starting with 156 like the other
items from the bag?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. For the record, what number is that?
Joanne Thomas - Direct
A. Q156-4.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers Exhibit 2000.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: 2000 is received.
MR. ORENSTEIN: And if I may turn to the computer to
display that, please.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Miss Thomas, did you examine this item and find if there's
a date on it?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And perhaps we could focus in on that.
A. April 15, 1995.
Q. That's what we're seeing at the very bottom of the receipt?
A. Yes.
Q. And is there a time stamp on it as well?
A. Yes, 1440.
Q. And that's military time; is that correct?
A. That's right. It would be 2:40 in the afternoon.
Q. All right. Now, in addition to recovering items from the
closet in the living room, did you also recover various items
from the dining table that was in the living room?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you first to turn to Exhibits 1957 and 1958 from
your folder.
A. Yes, I have them.
Joanne Thomas - Direct
Q. Are those among the items that you found on the top of the
dining room -- the dining table in Mr. Nichols' living room on
April 22?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers Exhibits 1957 and
1958.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Let me turn now to Exhibits 1716 and 1717.
A. I have those.
Q. Now, do you recognize both of those as items that you also
recovered from the dining table in Mr. Nichols' living room?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is Exhibit 1716?
A. It's a Executive Weekly Minder.
Q. When you say "Executive Weekly Minder," that's the title of
the item?
A. Of the outside cover of the item, yes.
Q. And what kind of cover is it?
A. It's a telephone address book with paper in it as well.
Q. It's one of these things that have a number of things that
come within it?
A. Right.
Q. When you found it, did it have other items tucked within
Joanne Thomas - Direct
it?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Was Exhibit 1717, the next exhibit, one of those items?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And what is 1717?
A. It's the telephone address part of that Weekly Minder.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers Exhibits 1716 and
1717.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, if I could turn your attention to 1717, the telephone
address book --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that you found there. Does that have pages that are
within it that are labeled as a telephone book with different
pages of the -- different letters of the alphabet?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, at this point I'd offer a
stipulation that we reached with the defense that the
handwriting on pages marked B, F, and M are in the handwriting
of Mr. Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. B, F, and N did you say?
MR. ORENSTEIN: I'm sorry. M.
Joanne Thomas - Direct
THE COURT: M.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes, the letter M.
THE COURT: And it is stipulated that is Mr. Nichols'
handwriting.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, last week we also heard from Agent Jasnowski. You
know her?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And she was the team leader of the search?
A. That's right.
Q. And she told us about making photocopies of the documentary
items in the search before they were sent off to the lab for
fingerprinting. Are you familiar with that?
A. I was not involved in that.
Q. You weren't in the court, but you're aware that that was
done; right?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And have you looked at photocopies of some of these pages?
A. Yes, I have.
MR. ORENSTEIN: The -- just for the record, Judge,
we've marked the B page copy as 1717A, and the copy of 1717 --
I'm sorry -- the copy of the F page as 1717B, and we would
offer those.
Joanne Thomas - Direct
MR. TIGAR: No objection for demonstrative purposes,
your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. ORENSTEIN: That's all.
THE COURT: 1717A and 1717B received for demonstrative
purposes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Let's start with 1717B. And if you can see on your screen,
there's a portion of that showing.
A. Yes.
Q. And that shows not the only entry on the F page, but one of
them; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. What is the name of that entry?
A. It says, "Fortier, Mike."
Q. And underneath the name, "Fortier, Mike," is there another
first name?
A. Yes, "Lori."
Q. And is there an address --
A. Kingman.
Q. Kingman, Arizona?
A. Kingman, Arizona.
Q. If we could turn now to 1717A. If I could show you a
portion of that page. Let me focus in on part of it there.
Joanne Thomas - Direct
There's only one entry on that page; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. And can you read the name that is the only
entry on the B page of Mr. Nichols' telephone address book?
A. "Bridges, Daryl."
Q. And there's other information connected with that name;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in addition to the telephone address book, did the
Executive Weekly Minder that you found, Exhibit 1716, have
anything else inside of it when you found it?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Exhibit 484.
A. I have that.
Q. What is that, please.
A. It's a Spotlight prepaid telephone card. And the name on
the front is Daryl Bridges, and --
Q. That was one of the items that you found inside of the
Executive Weekly Minder?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. On top of the dining table from Mr. Nichols' home?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 484.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 484 is received.
Joanne Thomas - Direct
MR. ORENSTEIN: And if we could just display the cover
of it.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Is that it there?
A. That's it.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, Miss Thomas.
Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. TIGAR: May I retrieve the exhibits from the
witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello again, Miss Thomas.
A. Hello.
Q. You were of course one of a number of people that was
involved in that search; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And you went to the briefing before it happened?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was Agent Crabtree at that briefing?
A. I'm sorry. I don't know Crabtree -- Agent Crabtree by his
Joanne Thomas - Cross
name.
Q. So you wouldn't know whether he was or not? Okay.
Now, do you happen to know how Mrs. Fortier spells her
first name?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Lori. You don't.
Now, you told us about the DRMO materials; right?
And are those Exhibits 1957 and '58?
A. Are those the sealed bids, sir? Two.
Q. Yes, the sealed bids.
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know how -- do you have any information about
how that sealed-bid material works, how that -- sealed-bid
auctions work?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Let me just put up a page here. I'll zoom out.
And so that when the jurors come to look at this, are
these pages just lists and lists of things that the Army is
trying to get rid of?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Oh. All right.
MR. ORENSTEIN: For the record, could we just have it
read into -- the items, which of the items is being displayed.
MR. TIGAR: This is Exhibit 1957, and I'm on page 3.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Joanne Thomas - Cross
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, with respect to this, did you read this material?
A. Did I read it inside?
Q. Yes, did you read the inside?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Oh, okay. Well, then I won't tax your patience by reading
it to you now.
A. Okay.
MR. TIGAR: I thank you very much. I don't have any
other questions.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No further questions. The witness is
excused.
THE COURT: Excused this time?
MR. ORENSTEIN: We don't anticipate calling her again.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. TIGAR: Agreed, your Honor, we don't anticipate
calling Miss Thomas.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
excused now.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. MACKEY: Call William Sweet.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(William Sweet affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: William Glen Sweet, S-W-E-E-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sweet. How are you?
A. Good afternoon. Fine.
Q. In April of 1995, sir, did you work for a company in
Washington, D.C., area known as Liberty Lobby?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And after the bombing, did it fall to you to gather
whatever records were on hand at that business concerning the
sale of a debit calling card in the name of Daryl Bridges?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. And did you do so?
A. Yes, I did.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, at this time, pursuant to
agreement by the parties, we would move to admit Government's
exhibits I would expect this witness to testify about including
480 through 483, 485 through 488 -- excuse me -- 488, 490
through 503, and 1835. And in addition Exhibits 486A, 488A,
490A, 493A, 496A, 499A, and 502A.
MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor. We have no
objection to the introduction of those exhibits.
THE COURT: All right. They're received.
William Sweet - Direct
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, tell the jury a little bit about yourself. How
old are you, please.
A. I'm 50 years old.
Q. And where do you currently reside?
A. At 10141 Wavell Road, Fairfax, Virginia, 22032.
Q. Is that in Washington, D.C., metro area?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. How long have you lived in the Washington, D.C. area?
A. Approximately 20 years.
Q. And what is your educational background?
A. I have a B.S. degree in accounting from Ithaca College in
Ithaca, New York.
Q. You may need to raise your voice just a little bit.
A. Okay.
Q. What is your current line of work?
A. I am a direct-response marketing consultant.
Q. What do you do in that kind of job?
A. I'm in marketing, and it is a direct response. By
definition, it's quantifiable. You do something and you can
quantify the reaction of the results you get immediately, very
quickly.
Q. Do you assist business clients in selling products?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you once upon a time work for Liberty Lobby?
William Sweet - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what time period?
A. It was from 1985 to 1995.
Q. And what position did you start with at Liberty Lobby?
A. I was initially hired as a controller for one of their
subsidiaries.
Q. And what different jobs after starting did you hold for
Liberty Lobby?
A. I was responsible for circulation, management, operations,
marketing and then eventually marketing director.
Q. Did Liberty Lobby during the time of your employment
publish a newspaper by any name?
A. Published a newspaper called Spotlight.
Q. Is that a single word?
A. It's The Spotlight. Spotlight is one word.
Q. And could you tell the jury the period of publication, how
often was it issued?
A. It's published weekly.
Q. And when is it printed in relation to when it's
distributed?
A. It's printed on Friday, with the date being ten days hence,
for the ten days to the Monday.
Q. In the fall of 1994, in the spring of '95, approximately
how large was The Spotlight readership?
A. The readership was estimated at that time at around
William Sweet - Direct
200,000.
Q. In 1993, sir, did you use the list of readers, Spotlight
subscribers, to launch a program to sell a debit calling card?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Tell the jury about that, please.
A. We prepared a -- we had reviewed the product, and we
prepared a wrap that would go around the newspaper promoting
the advantages of having a card you so you don't have to use
coins to make phone calls. It was good for people who would be
in college or if you were on the road.
Q. Is it oftentimes referred to as a debit calling card?
A. Yes, it is a debit calling card by definition.
Q. What does that mean?
A. By definition you have to prepay the amount. There's no
credit involved. You prepay a certain amount.
Q. And were accounts set -- kept separately; that is, by
individual?
A. We sold them to individuals. The accounts each had what we
called a PIN number, a unique PIN number to each card that was
sold.
Q. And was that PIN number, then, issued to each person who
held a Spotlight calling card?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Were any records or summaries or recaps of phone usages on
any card sent to the cardholder?
William Sweet - Direct
A. No, there were not. That was one of the advantages. You
didn't have to worry about it. You just used up the time, and
that was it.
Q. Now, based on the program that began in 1993, did Spotlight
provide any means for recharging or refunding a particular
calling card?
A. Yes. When you originally received your calling card in the
mail, you got a booklet that came with it of eight coupons
where you could send back with money from 30, 50, or a hundred
dollars.
Q. Take a look, please, Mr. Sweet, in your folder before you.
You should find Government Exhibit 480, 480.
Can you pull that out of the plastic and first
identify it for the record.
A. This is the original wrap that was put on The Spotlight
newspaper that launched the marketing effort for the prepaid
debit calling card.
Q. Could you pull that out of the plastic and simply show it
to the jury, please.
And does that exhibit describe the features, some of
which you've described here --
A. Yes, it does.
Q. -- about the debit calling card?
A. It goes into a lot of detail.
Q. That was included in each one of The Spotlight newspapers?
William Sweet - Direct
A. For this issue, yes.
Q. And when was that issue?
A. The issue date on this was November 1, 1993.
Q. Mr. Sweet, did you come to own a Spotlight calling card?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And have you used it over the years?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Would you describe to the jury how it works.
A. The original cards, we were given an 800 number that you
would dial into.
Q. You remember that 800 number?
A. It's 1 (800) 793-3377.
You would be prompted to -- it would say, "Welcome to
The Spotlight calling card," and it would ask you for your PIN
number. You would enter your PIN number. It would tell you
how much money you had remaining on the card. You would then
dial the number that you wanted to get to. It would -- just
before it made your connection, it would tell you how many
minutes you had remaining on that card, and you talked.
Q. All right. And the balance would go down as you used the
card?
A. Correct.
Q. Let's turn now to what you found in your search of records
for Daryl Bridges. Let me start with Government Exhibit 1835.
A. Government Exhibit what?
William Sweet - Direct
Q. 1835. It should be towards the end of your folder.
A. 1835. Oh, yes.
Q. Mr. Sweet, with benefit of that document and your own
research, could you tell the jury when Daryl Bridges was issued
his Spotlight calling card?
A. The original date was 11-7, 1993. November 7, 1993. That
was the application that he sent to us to -- for the -- in the
amount of $50.
Q. Did you find records to show that he re-funded or
recharged, made more payments on that card after that date?
A. Yes; we received an additional six recharges with coupons.
Q. What was the total amount that Daryl Bridges sent to
Spotlight to recharge that card?
A. The total -- the overall amount was $480. The recharges
were $430.
Q. What did a Spotlight customer pay for each minute of phone
usage?
A. They paid 25 cents a minute. So you were actually looking
the 1,920 minutes at the time, About 32 hours.
Q. On the Bridges account?
A. Yes, on that account alone. 32 hours.
MR. MACKEY: Can we display 1835 to the jury, please.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: 1835 hasn't been admitted.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, it was.
THE COURT: Yes, it is.
William Sweet - Direct
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, we did consent that it be
admitted; I think it was.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you.
It's on the computer.
Thanks, Kathi.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, tell the jury what they're looking at.
A. This is the listing of the history, payment history on the
Daryl Bridges phone card. The first entry is the
application -- was the application, and the following six
entries represent recharges, money that was sent in to The
Spotlight to add more time to the card.
Q. Each of the seven payments received at Spotlight was a
money order; is that correct?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And according to this exhibit, 300 of the $480 was paid
after -- on or after November 7, 1994; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Let me show a few of the other exhibits, Mr. Sweet, that
you've alluded to. Let's start with the application, please,
Government Exhibit 481, if you can find that.
And for the record, tell us what that is.
A. This is the original application that we received from a
Daryl Bridges at 3616 North Van Dyke Road in Decker, Michigan.
William Sweet - Direct
It was --
Q. Let me zoom in, Mr. Sweet, on the handwriting.
A. Okay.
Q. Go ahead and finish reading into the record the address
that was listed on that application?
A. That was Decker, Michigan, 48426/TDC.
Q. Do you know what TDC stands for?
A. I believe it is threat, derision, and coercion.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, pursuant to agreement of the
parties, it is agreed that the handwriting now displayed to the
jury was authored by Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. That's agreed.
THE COURT: All right.
And of course, members of the jury, we accept that
agreement.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, let's turn now to the money order that
accompanied that first payment, Government Exhibit 482; and I
show that to you, please.
And for the record, what is 482?
A. This is a United States postal money order dated the 11th
of November, 1993. It is made payable to The Spotlight, at 300
Independence Avenue, S.E., Washington, D.C., 20003.
Q. All right. Let me interrupt, Mr. Sweet. And let's go back
to the top portion of the money order. You see some printing
William Sweet - Direct
on there that says year, month, and day?
A. Correct.
Q. What would the year be?
A. 1993.
Q. What would the month be?
A. November.
Q. What would the day be?
A. The 7th.
Q. The 7th?
A. The 7th.
Q. All right. Thank you. And was this the money order that
was received with the first application in the name of Daryl
Bridges?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Let me show the enlargement on the left-hand side, please.
And how was this made payable?
A. This was made payable to The Spotlight.
Q. And in the notation at the bottom, below the listing of the
name "Washington, D.C," there are some initials. Would you
read those?
A. DGATT.
Q. Could it be DBATT?
A. Yes, it could.
Q. All right. Do you know what those initials, whatever they
are, represent?
William Sweet - Direct
A. I can't tell, no.
Q. Let's look at the other side of that same money order.
And is that the same name and address that you read in
earlier from the application itself?
A. On the reverse side? Are we looking at that?
Q. Yes, on the right-hand side, the other side.
A. The right-hand side. We have the "from Daryl Bridges, care
of 3616 North Van Dyke Road, Decker, Michigan, 48426/TDC."
Q. Let me show you again the entire document.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, it's the agreement of the
parties that the handwriting that appears on this exhibit, 482,
was authored by Timothy James McVeigh.
MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's agreed the handwriting is
Timothy James McVeigh's.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, did you find the envelope that that payment and
application came in to The Spotlight?
A. Yes, we did. Yes, we did.
Q. Take a look at 483, please.
And for the record again, tell us what that exhibit
is.
A. This is the original envelope that contained the money
order and the original application.
Q. I want to focus in now on the return address, Mr. Sweet.
William Sweet - Direct
And simply read that into the record, please.
A. "Daryl Bridges, Care of 3616 North Van Dyke Road, Decker,
Michigan, 48426/TDC."
Q. And again, this was the envelope that carried the money
order that you've just previously identified?
A. That's correct.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'd advise the Court and the
jury that pursuant to agreement, the handwriting that appears
on the face of this exhibit, 483, was that of Terry Lynn
Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, now let's turn to the records you found
concerning the second payment on the Bridges account. Let's
start with 485, please.
What is that?
A. This is another United States postal money order.
Q. And was it the payment received on or about what date, if
you can read from the money order?
A. The money order date is February 16, 1994.
Q. Let me zoom in on the right-hand side of that exhibit. And
is that the same name and address and notation of TDC that you
found on previous exhibits?
A. Yes, it is.
William Sweet - Direct
MR. MACKEY: And let me zoom back out, please.
And I'll report to the Court and jury, please, your
Honor, that it is the agreement that the handwriting that
appears on 485 was that of Mr. Terry Lynn Nichols.
THE COURT: That is agreed?
MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: 48- --
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. I was getting a note
here. Yes, your Honor, we agree to that.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, you mentioned earlier that as a service to the
customer, you sent coupons for future payments to cardholder?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What purpose did those coupons serve?
A. It was usually designed to facilitate payments for the
card, to recharge the card.
Q. And on this and other Daryl Bridges payments, did you find
that those money orders were accompanied by coupons?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Let me show you just for illustration one such coupon,
Government Exhibit 486A.
Do you find that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What is that, please?
William Sweet - Direct
A. This is a coupon to recharge The Spotlight calling card.
Q. Was that the coupon that accompanied the money order you
just previously identified?
A. Yes, it was.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, again pursuant to agreement,
the handwriting that appears on this coupon is that of
Mr. Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. For the record, Mr. Sweet, can you identify Government
Exhibit 487? It should be right behind that.
A. This is --
Q. Yes, what is that?
A. This is an envelope which was opened in our -- in the mail
room. And it contained additional payment.
Q. Did your staff routinely make notations on the envelopes as
part of their record keeping at Spotlight?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Do you see such notation on Exhibit 487?
A. Yes.
Q. Show the jury what you're referring to.
A. The notations of the date that it was opened in the mail
room of February 24, 1994, and the amount of $50 was received,
and the "TC," which represents telephone card, were noted.
William Sweet - Direct
Q. Thank you.
Let's turn now to the third payment, previously
identified as a money order dated 8 -- August 21, 1994. Take a
look at 488.
And if you can find 488A, see if that's a more legible
copy of the same money order.
A. Yes, it is.
Q. All right. Let's focus on 488A. And what is that, please,
for the record.
A. This is a Traveler's Express International money order for
the amount of $50.
Q. And in the upper right-hand corner, do you see a date?
A. August 21st, 1994.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, again pursuant to agreement,
the handwriting that appears on this exhibit, 488 and 488A, was
authored by Terry Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, we agree to that.
THE COURT: So agreed. All right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, take a look now, please, at 491.
Tell his Honor and the jury what that is, please.
A. This is an envelope that contained a payment from Daryl
Bridges.
Q. Let me zoom in on the return address.
Is that the same return address that you had found on
William Sweet - Direct
previous mailings?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. With the exception that there's no ZIP Code?
A. There is no ZIP Code or the "slash TDC."
MR. MACKEY: Again, pursuant to agreement, your Honor,
the handwriting that appears on this exhibit, 491, is that of
Mr. Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: That's right, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, depending on how good your eyes are, you can use
the screen to look at future exhibits and maybe it will go
faster. But if you need to look at the real documents, it will
be right next to you. Okay.
Take a look at 490 and tell the jury what that is.
A. Is this 490 in front of me?
Q. Not yet. Exhibit 490.
Find it in your folder, if you could.
A. Okay.
Q. Is that the coupon that accompanied that particular
payment?
A. This would be the coupon, yes.
Q. Let's turn now to the fourth payment in September of 1994,
Government Exhibit 492. Can you see it on the screen below
you, sir?
William Sweet - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And is that a money order dated September 29, 1994?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And was that the fourth payment, according to your summary,
that you received on the Bridges account?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Let me focus our attention on the left hand, and we'll zoom
that out for you. And what is the long series of numbers that
appears on the fourth line of that portion of that money order?
A. That is the PIN number that was assigned to this card.
Q. To the Daryl Bridges card?
A. To the Daryl Bridges card, yes.
Q. Let's zoom back out, if we can.
MR. MACKEY: And your Honor, for the record, it's the
agreement of the parties that the handwriting that appears on
this money order, 492, was that of Timothy James McVeigh.
MR. TIGAR: It's agreed, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Take a look now, Mr. Sweet, at 494. And is that the
mailing envelope in which that money order was found?
A. That is the mailing envelope, yes.
Q. And do you find some handwriting in the upper left-hand
corner that is the return address?
A. Yes.
William Sweet - Direct
Q. Let me show you that.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, it's again the agreement of
the parties that this handwriting, the return address on
Exhibit 494, was authored by Timothy James McVeigh.
MR. TIGAR: That's agreed, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, for the record, is the payment coupon that
accompanied that particular exhibit, 493?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Thank you. Let's turn now to the fifth payment, one dated
November 7, 1994. Take a look, please, at Exhibit 495. Is
that the money order in the amount of $100 dated 1-17-94?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, again pursuant to agreement,
the handwriting that appears on this money order was written by
Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: That's agreed, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Take a look, Mr. Sweet, at Exhibit 497. And was that the
mailing envelope in which that was sent?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MACKEY: Again, your Honor, the left-hand portion,
the return address portion of this exhibit, was written by
William Sweet - Direct
Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: That's agreed, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, is Exhibit 497, for the record, a payment coupon
that was with this money order and envelope, if you could take
a look at it, just to verify?
A. 497 is the envelope.
Q. All right. 496.
A. Yes, this is the coupon.
Q. Let's turn now to the next-to-the-last payment, one dated
January 21, 1995, in the amount of a hundred dollars,
Government Exhibit 498. Do you see that in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that the sixth payment received on the Daryl
Bridges account at Spotlight in D.C.?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, again pursuant to agreement,
the handwriting that appears on this money order was written by
Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: That's agreed, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, Exhibit 500: Do you find that in your packet?
Can you see it on the screen?
William Sweet - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And is that the envelope in which the money order from
January 21, '95, was received?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Focus our attention now on the return address. Is that the
same address you've noted in other documents?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, again, the agreement is that
this handwriting was written by Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. And 499, Mr. Sweet: Find it in your folder, please, and
tell us if that is the coupon that accompanied this payment.
A. Yes, it is. This is the coupon.
Q. I'm going to show you the final exhibits, then, for the
seventh and final payment on the Bridges account. Let's start
at 501, please. Is that a money order dated February 14, 1995?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, again the agreement is that
the handwriting on this money order was written by Terry Lynn
Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
William Sweet - Direct
Q. Let me focus just a moment, Mr. Sweet, on the right-hand
portion of that exhibit, if you can. Can you read into the
record how "Daryl Bridges" is spelled?
A. D-A-R-Y-L, B-R-I-D-G-E-S.
Q. Let's turn our attention, now, to 503, the envelope in
which that was sent in. Focus on the return address and read
into the record how "Daryl Bridges" is spelled there?
A. D-A-R-L-Y, B-R-I-D-G-E-S.
Q. And for the record, what return address did this person use
on the last payment on the Daryl Bridges account?
A. 1228 Westloop, No. 197, Manhattan, Kansas, 66542. I can't
really read that.
Q. Is that an address you had seen on any other document in
your search for Daryl Bridges' records?
A. No.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, it's the agreement of the
parties that Mr. Terry Lynn Nichols prepared the handwriting
that appears on the return address portion of this exhibit,
503.
MR. TIGAR: That's agreed, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, so agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. And again for the record, please, Mr. Sweet, take a look at
502 and tell us -- Exhibit 502 in your folder and tell us if
that is the coupon that accompanied the last payment.
William Sweet - Direct
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Thank you.
I want to conclude, Mr. Sweet, by directing your
attention now to Government Exhibit 484. It's previously
admitted into evidence. Do you recognize what that is?
A. That is the first page of the coupon book that was sent out
to Daryl Bridges.
Q. And when would this coupon book have been sent?
A. It would have been sent shortly after the original purchase
in November.
Q. Of 1993?
A. Of 1993.
Q. And to what address would it have been sent?
A. That was sent to Daryl Bridges, 3616 North Van Dyke Road,
Decker, Michigan, 48426.
Q. Now, there is some names and numbers on the inside front
flap of that exhibit, Mr. Sweet. I'd like for you to answer
some questions about those. Let me show them to you and the
jury. If you want to work from the original exhibit, that's
fine, too.
What are we looking at here on the screen?
A. On the left-hand side is the back of the original calling
card that was sent to him. On it are instructions on how to
use the card.
Q. So if I took the coupon book, the Government Exhibit 484,
William Sweet - Direct
and simply opened it, are we looking on the back side of the
front cover?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. Now, let me focus your attention on some
handwriting that appears in the bottom left portion of that
same front page cover. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Do you see the handwriting that begins with the word
"assist" and then an 800 number?
A. Right.
Q. Do you recognize that 800 number?
A. Yes. That is the 800 number to the technical support
person, Keith Bower.
Q. And is Mr. Bower's name written right next to that number?
A. That is correct.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, it's the agreement of the
parties that the highlighted handwriting now being displayed to
the jury was written by Timothy James McVeigh.
I'm sorry, my notes -- and they've corrected me.
That's Mr. Nichols'.
MR. TIGAR: That's agreed to, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed that it's Mr. Nichols'.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. It's the handwriting below that that I want to highlight to
you and the jury. Do you see that?
William Sweet - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that number?
A. That is the main phone number into Spotlight.
Q. And what names appear below that phone number?
A. Appears to be my name, but my last name is misspelled.
It's spelled -- it looks like S-U-I-T-E. And the name below
that is that of Paul Angel.
Q. And who is Paul Angel?
A. Paul Angel is a gentleman who assisted me in this program.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, it's the agreement of the
parties that the highlighted portion of the handwriting now
appearing is written by Timothy James McVeigh.
MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So agreed.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, before coming to court, did you look at the
stubs that are still a part of Government Exhibit 484, the
coupon stubs?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you now an exhibit. And is that a copy of the
stubs that are part of Government Exhibit 484?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Let me draw your attention now to five of those six stubs.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, it's the agreement of the
parties that the handwriting that appears on five of those six
William Sweet - Direct
stubs -- that is, all stubs dated with the exception of
September 1994 -- was written by Terry Lynn Nichols.
MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: So agreed.
MR. MACKEY: And the third stub, if we can highlight
that, please. And for the record, that's one dated
September 21, 1994. It's the agreement of the parties the
entries on that stub was written by Timothy James McVeigh.
MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. And all of the handwriting that's part of 484 is together
in the same exhibit; is that correct, Mr. Sweet?
A. That's correct.
Q. Just a couple final questions, Mr. Sweet. Did you check
your records to determine whether a person by the name of Tim
or Timothy McVeigh ever subscribed to The Spotlight newspaper?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And what did you find?
A. We didn't find anything.
Q. And how about Terry Lynn Nichols?
A. No.
Q. And what about Michael Fortier?
A. Yes.
Q. And what about James Nichols?
William Sweet - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. At what address was Mr. Nichols' subscription to be mailed?
A. To the Decker, Michigan address.
Q. Finally, in April of 1995, to your knowledge, did The
Spotlight newspaper carry coverage or articles about the
upcoming anniversary of the Waco event?
A. Yes, they did.
MR. MACKEY: I have nothing else, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sweet.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help out Terry Nichols.
You worked for Liberty Lobby for how many years, sir?
A. 10 years.
Q. And how would you describe the politics of Liberty Lobby?
A. They are a populist institution that follows the political,
if you will, policies of Thomas Jefferson, President Thomas
Jefferson.
Q. And in The Spotlight newspaper that they publish, they have
a lot of quotes from Thomas Jefferson?
A. There are a few in there. I'm sure there has been quite a
few over the years.
William Sweet - Cross
Q. You do not particularly agree with the politics of the
Liberty Lobby; is that correct?
A. That's correct, sir. I'm not completely in tune with the
politics of Liberty Lobby.
Q. Now, did you read The Spotlight over the years?
A. On occasion, I did.
Q. Did you have copies of it in your home?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did it change your political thinking to have copies of it
in your home?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer.
THE WITNESS: In some areas, yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. It didn't make you a violent person, did it?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, in The Spotlight magazine -- or Liberty Lobby, you
were in charge of marketing; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. That meant you had to know the demographics of your
customers; correct?
William Sweet - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The calling card was not the only thing that was marketed
to people that subscribed to Spotlight; right?
A. Correct.
Q. And in fact, there are also advertisements in Spotlight
that people can put if they pay the advertising fee; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And those advertisements are also directed at people who
the advertisers believe will be interested in their products;
is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, have you -- are you familiar with the -- generally the
kind of advertising that appears in Spotlight?
A. Just on a peripheral basis. We had an advertising manager
who specifically handled all the advertising.
Q. Now, Spotlight newspaper, you say, had a press run of,
what, over a hundred thousand?
A. At the time it was over a hundred thousand, yes, sir.
Q. About what was it, if you remember?
A. It was probably 110,000 at that time frame.
Q. Something like that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did it have more readers than it had press run, so far as
you could tell?
A. Yes. Every indication was that the newspaper itself was
William Sweet - Cross
passed around to a lot of people, and we estimated between two
and two-and-a-half people read each issue. So that would be
roughly 200,000 to a quarter of a million people a week.
Q. Now -- and did you ever in your marketing job study the
demographics of those readers so that you could more
efficiently market to them?
A. We tried, yes.
Q. Did you, during the years that you were at Spotlight,
notice advertisements that dealt with how to incorporate under
a fictitious name?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Did you notice advertisements on how to protect your
privacy from government intrusion?
A. There could have been those in there. I vaguely recall
having seen something of that nature.
Q. Do you recall things -- advertisements having to do with
opting out of the banking system?
A. There were a lot of articles about the banking system in
the newspaper. If that was covered specifically, I could not
quote it at this time.
Q. And in fact, the political view of Spotlight in addition to
populist could fairly be described as conservative; is that
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And the political view of Spotlight was in fact in
William Sweet - Cross
opposition to many of the policies of the United States; is
that correct?
A. From a -- I'm not the person to be answering these
questions necessarily. I don't write for the newspaper. They
took issue with the government of the United States in many
areas.
Q. For instance, NAFTA: They opposed NAFTA?
A. They're opposed to NAFTA; that's correct.
Q. All right. Now, you mentioned that this Spotlight
marketing was something that you worked on in the beginning; is
that correct?
A. Initially, I was hired as a comptroller.
Q. No, I understood. I say when the card started, Spotlight
card?
A. The card, yes.
Q. You were in right at the beginning.
A. I was in at the beginning of the program.
Q. Did you study how these cards had worked in other
countries?
A. I had very little information from what people were telling
me how they worked and some foreigners. I just took it from
what the people who came in to us and said, Let's do it, and
worked from there.
Q. Do you have any familiarity as you sit there today with the
billing records that shows what kind of calls were made and to
William Sweet - Cross
whom by the person who had access to the Daryl Bridges card?
A. No, I have no -- I have no knowledge of the --
Q. Don't know anything about it. You showed us a little while
ago, or you were talking about a coupon book. Do you remember
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, inside the front cover of that coupon book, there's
some writing that tells you what number you punch in if you
want to make a call; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, if the card had credit, anybody who had that coupon
book could pick it up and make a call; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. And did you have a policy at Spotlight -- Did people call
up and say, Hey, look, somebody else's got my card? Did that
ever happen?
A. Yes. Well, people had called in and said they had lost
their cards. People had called in and said that they felt that
somebody else had used their card. But that was very, very
rare.
Q. Now, you were talking about the debit card function. Am I
correct in saying that this is not a credit card?
A. That's correct.
Q. You have a certain amount of call time, and when that's
gone, the card's used up, unless you recharge it?
William Sweet - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. Now, are international calls billed at a higher rate than
domestic calls?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Is the card especially convenient for someone who wants to
make international calls?
A. At that time you could make international calls. I
wouldn't say it was especially convenient, because a lot of
countries weren't part of the deal yet.
Q. For the countries that were part of the deal, was it more
convenient than going to the phone booth with a stack of
quarters?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Indeed, even for domestic calls, it was more convenient
than going to the phone booth with a stack of quarters?
A. Yes, and cheaper, too.
Q. You bought the card; right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How many of them did you buy?
A. Personally, I think I purchased four of them.
Q. And you gave them to your kids; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And was this a handy way for your kids to keep in touch
with you?
A. No excuse for not calling home.
William Sweet - Cross
Q. And also, you could monitor how much of their call activity
was -- was being done; right?
A. I never kept the numbers. It was up to them. I just
handed -- I just handed the cards to them. I never recorded
the number.
Q. Each one in their own name?
A. I just bought them. They were actually all in my name.
Q. Oh. So if calls were made on the -- I just want to get
this right. The "William Glen Sweet" -- did you use your
William Glen Sweet card -- if we were to bring in all the
William Glen Sweet call records in here, we'd find a lot of
card calls that you didn't make; is that right?
A. That's true.
Q. And we wouldn't know particularly who did make them, would
we?
A. No.
Q. Because that would be up to your kids to whom you'd given
the cards as to what calls they made; right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, these cards that you sold: You sold how many of them
in this period we're talking about here, 1993 to 1995?
A. If my memory serves me, it was approximately 10,000.
Q. And who bought them?
A. Mostly the readers of The Spotlight. But there were a
number of sales outside that realm.
William Sweet - Cross
Q. Did you look at the demographics to see who was buying it?
A. I would run analysis by ZIP Codes to look in terms of the
typical distribution of Spotlight readership.
Q. Any outside the United States?
A. Yes. There was U.S. forces used them. In fact, there was
a -- at one point, somebody who used to work in the U.S.
embassy in Moscow had one.
Q. So somebody in the U.S. embassy in Moscow could use this
card; and would it work from -- was it then the Soviet Union,
or was it something --
A. I can't answer that.
Q. Never had any complaints?
A. Never had any complaints from that person.
Q. Now, I want to ask you about some of the documents that you
looked at that you were discussing with us. You said that you
saw on a couple of the early writings the initials TDC;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you -- you said those stood for what?
A. I believe it's threat, derision, and coercion.
Q. Now, when did you find that out, that that's what those
initials might stand for?
A. I believe I knew it sometime ago. But it was -- my memory
had been refreshed here recently.
Q. I see. Because you testified in a prior proceeding in
William Sweet - Cross
relationship to this calling card on the 6th of May, 1997, and
you didn't recall what they stood for; correct?
A. At that time, I wasn't sure what it stood for.
Q. All right. So who refreshed your recollection?
A. The attorneys.
Q. Which attorney was that that refreshed your recollection?
A. The attorney, the prosecuting attorney.
Q. Mr. Mackey?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he tell you why he wanted you to remember that?
A. We were just discussing it, and I was puzzled as to what --
what it was.
Q. I see. And do you know in addition to whatever those words
mean -- do you know why people used to put that out next to
their ZIP Code?
A. I'm not that politically attuned. I could imagine it was
something derisive about the U.S. government, for all I know.
Q. Well, and other than what you can imagine, do you know
whether it's something derisive about the U.S. government?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Now, you looked at some envelopes here, and I'd like to put
one of them up, if I may. This is Government Exhibit 494; the
address, The Spotlight. Is that a label that you distributed
to people so that they could more easily send in their
payments?
William Sweet - Cross
A. That could have come from almost anything. That address
and in that format is used on many different kind of envelopes
and promotional materials.
Q. But if you'll notice, did you notice that the address on
all of these envelopes appears to come from the same matrix;
that is to say, it looks like -- just like this?
A. Sure.
Q. And is it your view, based on your experience, that that
came from -- the labels were supplied by Spotlight at some
point?
A. I wouldn't say that this was a label that was provided by
Spotlight. To give you some background, we probably produced
in a single year some 3 million of these on return envelopes.
Q. So if this is a return envelope, in your view, that
Spotlight had issued at some time?
A. Yes. We have millions of them.
Q. Right. And did you testify that you didn't find a
subscriber named Terry Nichols; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. But you did find one named James Nichols; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You found one named Mike Havens?
A. Correct.
Q. And he lived in Pennsylvania?
A. Correct.
William Sweet - Cross
Q. And Michael Fortier was a subscriber?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, looking at this envelope, this is dated the 29th of
September, and the postmark is Topeka, Kansas; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Where it was mailed from. And do you remember looking at
the money order that was sent along with it, with the exhibits
that you had earlier today?
A. Just went through that.
Q. All right. And that money order was obtained from a United
States post office on the 29th of September also; correct?
A. That's correct. What it appeared to be. I don't have it
in front of me at the moment.
Q. And your experience is that in order to get a postal money
order, you have to go to a United States post office; correct?
A. I've never purchased one at a U.S. post office. I couldn't
answer that.
Q. You don't know one way or another.
A. Right.
Q. Now, I'd like to show you what's been marked here as
Government -- received rather -- as Government Exhibit 497.
That's an envelope postmarked the 7th of November; correct?
A. Yes, it appears to be.
Q. And that also bears a postmark of Topeka, Kansas; is that
right?
William Sweet - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Here is one, and this is Government Exhibit 500. You see
the date on the bottom marked the date of receipt; correct,
2-1-95?
A. Correct.
Q. And the date is not possible to read on this copy of
Government Exhibit 500. But the postmark is still visible as
Topeka; is that correct?
A. I can't see that on this slide here.
Q. You can't see that on the --
A. I can't read it.
Q. Now can you see Topeka?
A. Yes, I can see the word Topeka.
Q. All right. Thank you.
And you notice also you told us about -- this is
Government Exhibit 503. And that's the one in which the Daryl
Bridges, first of all, name is wrong. This is a different
address than all the others; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. The one in Manhattan, Kansas. And -- but also, the
postmark on there is also Topeka, Kansas; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Was it one of the advantages of The Spotlight credit card
that you didn't need to establish credit in order to have it?
A. It's not a credit card.
William Sweet - Cross
Q. I understand. And I'm just asking in a different way --
A. Yes.
Q. -- just to make sure that I understand this. You didn't
have to establish credit in order to have it; right?
A. It's prepaid. There's no credit involved.
Q. You had the customer's money in your pocket -- right --
A. That's right.
Q. -- at the time, and so that anybody who came up with the
money to send you could get one of these things; right?
A. Correct.
Q. Oh. The cards that you -- the cards that you got, you got
four of them. Did any member of your household other than your
children use them?
A. Well, yes; my wife.
Q. All right. And you just showed her the coupon book and
gave her the number so that she could use it?
A. They weren't at that point from the coupon book. There was
a later version of these.
Q. But you gave her the number --
A. I gave her the number.
Q. -- and then she was able to use it; right?
A. Correct.
Q. And the way that you would keep track, did you use it also
at the same time that she was using it?
A. No, I usually had my own number.
William Sweet - Cross
Q. Okay. All right. And as your credit would go down, the
amount of credit you had left on the card would go down, you
told us that you'd hear somebody tell you that as you were
making your phone call; right?
A. You were given a warning at -- when you had 2 minutes.
Q. And -- excuse me. Could you also call some number and find
out how much credit you had left on the card?
A. As I introduced earlier, when you make the initial phone
call, it will tell you at one point how many dollars are left
and then at another point before the connection is made, how
many minutes you have remaining.
Q. I recall that. I'm asking you: Was there also a way you
could find out by calling a number and finding out how much
credit you had left without making a telephone call, since
you'd hear those voice prompts?
A. That was a difficult -- we had a service number that you
could call in and explain your problem. But as a rule, the --
that information was not given out because you don't know who
it is you're talking to over the phone. It had to be somebody
who was identifiable: In other words, if somebody called me, I
could pull my files, my records, and I could identify or ask
them their name and their address, and then I would probably
identify that this person was issued the card.
Q. And then you would give the information?
A. Then I could get the information, yes.
William Sweet - Cross
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
Will your Honor indulge me for a moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Just a couple more about this -- when people would call
you.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. In the beginning stages, did you have problems with the
delay in people sending in money and there would be some delay
before it was credited to their account?
A. Spotlight was one of the first affinity groups to have one
of these cards here in the United States; and the technology
was being developed as we went along. So, yes, we did have
trouble at times making the connectivity, if you will, between
the payment being received and getting credited on the account.
Q. Your marketing was a little ahead of your technology?
A. I would say so, yes.
Q. And when your marketing got a little ahead of your
technology, did people call in and gripe to you about that?
A. They certainly did.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. I have no further
questions.
THE COURT: Redirect.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
William Sweet - Redirect
Q. Mr. Sweet, on those occasions when someone complained about
the delay in credit, was there ever an occasion where you'd
pick up the phone at Liberty Lobby, use that person's PIN to
check to see if the service was --
A. I'm sure I did it hundreds of times.
Q. What was the usual amount of money that was on a Spotlight
calling card?
A. Typically $30 or 50. I mean, those were the amounts that
most people purchased them in originally.
Q. So I take it because it's prepaid, Liberty Lobby didn't do
a credit check on any applicant?
A. No credit check required.
Q. Did any creditor of any Spotlight calling card come to
Liberty Lobby to seize assets or anything of the like?
A. No, they have not.
Q. Mr. Tigar asked you a few questions about the content, at
least the general nature of the publication Spotlight. You
mentioned something about the banking system, reports and
articles that were critical of the American banking system. Do
you recall that?
A. There have been a number of articles critical of the
Federal Reserve, yes.
Q. As a general matter, did those articles in The Spotlight
suggest that the American system was the product of a
conspiracy of European bankers and particularly the Rothschild
William Sweet - Redirect
family?
A. I believe so, yes. The publication thrives on conspiracy.
Q. And because?
A. Because?
Q. Because why?
A. Because that polarizes people to read the newspaper, and
it's a good way to sell newspapers.
Q. And Spotlight counted on that?
A. Absolutely. With the Kennedy assassination, they have been
following that one for -- since Day 1.
Q. You were asked a series of questions about how one who had
a card would know the balance, the then-existing balance on the
card.
A. Yes.
Q. As I understand your testimony -- is you didn't need to
keep track of records as you make calls; you could simply pick
up the phone and dial?
A. Correct.
Q. And so anyone who had a same, single PIN number would know
what that balance is, even if those two people were miles
apart?
A. Correct.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, at this time I'd like to
publish a factual Stipulation No. 26 that places by agreement
the site of purchase of each of the money orders that the
William Sweet - Redirect
witness has identified.
THE COURT: Well, I don't -- oh, here it is.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor --
THE COURT: It's been agreed to.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, that has been agreed to. I'm just
finding my copy.
THE COURT: All right.
Members of the jury, it has been agreed here that
Government Exhibit No. 482 is a $50 money order purchased on
November 7, 1993, in Deford, Michigan. Government Exhibit No.
485 is a $50 money order purchased on February 18, 1994, in Las
Vegas, Nevada. Government Exhibit No. 488 is a $50 money order
purchased on August 21, 1994, in El Dorado, Kansas. Government
Exhibit No. 492 is a $30 money order purchased on September 29,
1994, in Marion, Kansas. Government Exhibit 495 is a $100
money order purchased on November 7, 1994, in Manhattan,
Kansas. Government Exhibit No. 488 is a $100 money order
purchased on January 21, 1995, in Junction City, Kansas. And
Government Exhibit No. 501 is a $100 money order purchased on
February 14, 1995, in Junction City, Kansas.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, as his Honor read that stipulation, did you hear
Topeka, Kansas, mentioned?
A. Yes.
William Sweet - Redirect
Q. Topeka, Kansas?
A. No.
Q. All right.
A. Manhattan.
Q. Exactly. Junction City, Kansas; El Dorado, Kansas; Marion,
Kansas, for example.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know what the practices of the U.S. Postal Service
were, if you took an envelope and put it in the mail in El
Dorado and what postmark would appear that same envelope? Did
you know what the practices were?
A. I would assume it to be the three-digit ZIP Code of that
post office.
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. Lack of personal
knowledge.
THE COURT: Yes, assuming won't cut it.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. So you don't know what the practices were?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Tigar showed you a number of envelopes. You had
examined them before. Did you notice that the stamps on many
of those envelopes were all upside down?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you know what that represents?
A. This is a -- to my knowledge, a protest to the U.S.
William Sweet - Redirect
policies: The country is in trouble.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Excuse me.
MR. TIGAR: I object to that. I don't see how he
could know that.
THE COURT: Yes. What's the source of your
understanding of that?
THE WITNESS: I've seen it done many, many times, and
that's -- I've discussed it with other people.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. In many of the mailings at Spotlight, did you notice the
stamps --
THE COURT: I'm going to strike that. I don't believe
that's an adequate foundation for that kind of testimony. The
jury will disregard the testimony.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, at any time that the Daryl Bridges account was
active, did you receive any reports or complaints that it had
been stolen?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Finally, Mr. Sweet, Mr. Tigar asked you some questions
about what you did with the cards you bought. Do you recall
that?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you give them to family members?
William Sweet - Redirect
A. Yes, I did.
Q. People you trusted?
A. Yes.
Q. And in each case, did you authorize those people once they
had the card to use it?
A. Yes, I did.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Any recross.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. Just one or two, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Was the Philippines a place you could call to with a
Daryl -- with a Spotlight card?
A. Prepaid card?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And do you know how much a minute that cost?
A. I cannot recall that amount, no, I can't.
Q. All right. Well, would it be reasonable for a person to
charge up their card by a hundred dollars if they were going to
be calling the Philippines a lot?
A. I can't answer that. I wouldn't -- that would be a
supposition on my part.
William Sweet - Recross
Q. Okay. Do you know -- I understand. Did it cost a lot more
to call the Philippines than it did to call New York?
A. Yes, it did.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Witness now excused?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that agreed.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, you're excused.
THE WITNESS: All right.
THE COURT: We will take our afternoon recess at this
time, members of the jury, and again of 20 minutes' duration
and again remembering the caution and following the caution
regularly and routinely given to keep open minds, avoiding
discussion of the case or anything about it among yourselves
and with all others and avoiding anything outside of our
evidence which could in any way influence you in your
decisions. You're excused now, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 3:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: The factual Stipulation No. 26 appears to
be dated today. I hadn't seen it before. It does have
Mr. Nichols' signature on it, does it?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, it does.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. We'll be in
recess, 20 minutes.
(Recess at 3:36 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:54 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 3:55 p.m.)
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: United States would call John Hensley.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(John Hensley affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: John E. Hensley, H-E-N-S-L-E-Y.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hensley. Would you tell the jury where
you live, please.
A. Los Angeles, California.
Q. How are you employed there?
A. I'm the special agent in charge, U.S. Customs Service,
Los Angeles field division.
John Hensley - Direct
Q. How long have you worked for the Customs Service?
A. 28 years.
Q. Can you describe for the jury what it is that the Customs
Service does?
A. Customs Service protects the borders of the United States,
protects the revenues of the United States on importations and
exportations, and generally protects the citizenry from crimes
within the statutory authority of the Customs Service.
Q. So does the Customs Service have agents who are involved in
criminal law enforcement?
A. Yes, we do. We have about 2800 special agents who are 1811
criminal investigators.
Q. 1811. That's a statutory designation?
A. Criminal investigators. Yes, it is.
Q. How long have you been in charge of the Los Angeles office?
A. Just under two years.
Q. Prior to taking over at the Los Angeles office, what was
your position with the Customs Service?
A. I was the special agent in charge of the Dallas field
division.
Q. Now, does the Dallas field division have jurisdiction over
a particular area?
A. Yes, it does. It runs the northern part of the state of
Texas and the entire state of Oklahoma.
Q. And as special agent in charge of the Dallas division, did
John Hensley - Direct
you have supervisory responsibility over the offices in
Oklahoma?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did the Customs Service have an office in Oklahoma City in
April of 1995?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And where was that located, please.
A. It was located in the Murrah Federal Building in downtown
Oklahoma City.
Q. And could you describe generally how large an office it had
in the Murrah Building?
A. Yes. It was about 1500 square feet. It was on the fifth
floor of the Murrah Federal Building and housed six special
agents -- excuse me. Five special agents and one office
assistant.
Q. And did the people who worked for the Customs Service in
the Murrah Building have any particular focus to their
activities?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Can you describe that, please.
A. Yes. The focus in that particular office was the
investigation of frauds against the revenue, narcotics
enforcement, smuggling, money laundering.
Q. Now, you told us that the Customs offices in Oklahoma City
were on the fifth floor of the Murrah Building. Is that
John Hensley - Direct
correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. ORENSTEIN: If I could have the computer display
to show the fifth floor. It should be up there.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Okay. Do you see that in front of you, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. If you would use this floor plan, which is part of
Government's Exhibit 952, and I believe you have a light pen
there. If you would explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the
jury who worked in the Customs office in the Murrah Building.
A. Okay. If I can, I can trace it probably from the
entranceway. That's the reception entranceway. As you turn
this way, it's the file room, then the break room. This is the
evidence storage room, coming around to Terry Wilson's office,
who was the resident agent in charge. Coming this way is the
conference room.
The next area is an open area which had divided work
stations. The first station was Claude Medearis, senior
special agent. The next station was Dale Edwards, a special
agent, and the last in the open area was Cynthia Gonyea.
The office on the end was occupied by Paul Ice, senior
special agent. Next to Paul was Priscilla Salyers, the office
manager. Behind Priscilla was the computer room. Next to that
was the holding cell. Next to that was the back door, and then
John Hensley - Direct
the witness interview room. And that is the entire office.
Q. That's all on the fifth floor of the Murrah Building;
correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, let me direct your attention to April 19 of 1995.
Where did you begin your day?
A. I was in Austin, Texas, at the state capitol complex at a
meeting.
Q. And while you were at that meeting, did you learn of the
explosion at the Murrah Building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. I was in the company of one of our pilots; and upon making
some phone calls and finding out the seriousness of the
explosion, I asked the pilot to fly me directly to Oklahoma
City. So we left Austin, Texas, and flew directly to Oklahoma
City. I arrived shortly before noon on April 19.
Q. Once you arrived, did you attempt to account for the six
Customs Service employees who were stationed in the Murrah
Building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you find any of them?
A. Yes. I found Terry Wilson, I found Dale Edwards, and I
found Cynthia Gonyea. And I located but did not see at that
time by middle afternoon Priscilla Salyers.
John Hensley - Direct
Q. Do you know where she had been?
A. Yes. She had been in the building and had been taken to
the emergency room at a local hospital in Oklahoma City.
Q. Were you able to locate Agents Ice and Medearis?
A. No. We ultimately were not able to locate them on that
day.
Q. Were they killed in the bombing of the building?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Agent Hensley, before coming to court today, did you look
at an item marked Government's Exhibit 952E, which is a copy of
that floor plan that's on your screen, and affix to that name
plates showing where Agents Ice and Medearis worked?
A. Yes, I did.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, we offer 952E with those
name plates. We won't display it here.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. 952.
MR. ORENSTEIN: We had offered it before with some
name plates. We're offering it with these.
THE COURT: E, did you say?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: E, received.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Also before coming to court today, Agent Hensley, did you
look at Government's Exhibit 1067, a chart bearing photographs
John Hensley - Direct
of Agents Ice and Medearis?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Does that chart bear fair and accurate photographs of the
way Agents Ice and Medearis looked before they were killed in
the bombing?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, we offer Government's
Exhibit 1067.
MR. WOODS: No objection subject to our prior
objections.
THE COURT: Yes. It's received.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I ask Agent Tongate to come up and
display the chart.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Hensley, I'd like to go through this chart and
describe for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury who each of
these men was, how long he served the Customs Service, and what
he did.
A. Okay. The agent on my far right is Paul Douglas Ice. Paul
was a senior special agent in the office in Oklahoma City. He
had been an agent just under ten years, coming on the job in
early 1986.
Q. And what kind of job responsibilities did he have?
A. He was the lead agent on two large narcotics cases, also on
John Hensley - Direct
a major smuggling case, and he had several other cases assigned
to him. I believe his caseload that he was carrying at the
time were about nine criminal cases.
Q. And could you describe who is in the next photograph?
A. The next is Claude Arthur Medearis. Claude was just
recently promoted at that time to senior special agent. He was
also carrying narcotics cases and smuggling cases, and he had
eight active investigations that he was working at that time,
criminal investigations.
Q. And I'm sorry: How long had he been working for the
Customs Service?
A. Just under ten years. He came on almost within two months
of Paul Ice, so they came on together.
Q. Now, on April 19, 1995, how many investigative -- criminal
investigative agents did the Customs Service have stationed in
Oklahoma City?
A. There were a total of five with one office manager.
Q. And what percentage of its law enforcement officers did the
Customs Service lose in Oklahoma City on April 19?
A. Approximately 40 percent.
Q. In addition to the loss of personnel, did the bombing
affect the ability of the Customs Service to fulfill its
responsibility in Oklahoma City in other ways?
A. Yes, it affected not only Oklahoma City but throughout the
service.
John Hensley - Direct
Q. What was the effect on Oklahoma City, first of all?
A. The loss of the agents and their case-working ability, the
knowledge that those agents had, the files that were created by
those agents, the other office files and historical documents,
and certain pieces of evidence linked to other investigations.
Q. Were there any criminal investigations ongoing at the time
of the bombing that had to be terminated because of the
bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there others that were significantly impaired or
delayed as a result of the bombing?
A. Yes. It -- at the time of the bombing, all of those
cases -- all the cases, including those being worked by other
agents not killed in the bombing, were terminated because of
the explosion. And at a later time, several cases were
reconstructed and moved forward but not all of them. Many of
them were closed permanently.
Q. Now, prior to the bombing, what was the normal --
approximately the normal caseload for an agent of the Customs
Service in the Oklahoma city office?
A. The average caseload was around eight to twelve cases, and
that was a continuous amount. We would close a case, open a
case; but the average caseload was between eight and twelve
cases.
Q. Were the surviving agents in the Oklahoma City office able
John Hensley - Direct
to maintain that caseload in the months following the bombing?
A. No, they were not.
Q. Now, in addition to the impact on the Oklahoma City office,
you mentioned that there was an impact beyond the Oklahoma City
office. Can you describe what that was?
A. Yes. Several of the cases had collateral leads in other
areas, were linked to other investigations throughout the
United States. Those cases were severely hampered.
The Dallas office, for instance, 45 agents were moved
from Dallas to Oklahoma City for a period of almost 30 days
during the investigation following the bombing. And personnel
from headquarters in other offices were also moved into
Oklahoma City, taking them away from their other duties.
Q. Finally, Agent Hensley, on the morning of April 19, 1995,
was Special Agent Paul Ice a law enforcement officer of the
United States engaged in the performance of his official duties
for the Customs Service?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And on that same morning, was Special Agent Claude Medearis
an officer, law enforcement officer of the United States
engaged in the performance of his official duties for the
Customs Service?
A. Yes, he was.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor. I have nothing
further.
John Hensley - Direct
THE COURT: Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
If Mr. Tongate was to have a seat, that's fine with
me.
THE COURT: All right. You can put that down and take
a seat.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good afternoon, Agent Hensley.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers that was
appointed by the senior federal judge in Oklahoma City shortly
after May 9, 1995, when Terry Nichols was charged with being
responsible for this bombing. You and I have known each other
for a number of years; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. However, we've never talked about your activities in this
case, have we?
A. That's correct.
Q. You told the jury that you got to Oklahoma City the morning
of the 19th before noon. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And how late did you -- how many days did you stay there
before you left?
A. I was there almost a month.
John Hensley - Cross
Q. Without leaving?
A. One trip to Dallas to pick up additional clothes and then
return.
Q. Okay. Now, did you set up a command post while you were
there in Oklahoma City for you and the other Customs people who
flew in?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And where did you locate your command post?
A. It was at the Customs National Aviation Center at or near
Will Rogers Airport.
Q. Okay. Did anybody share that command post with you, other
agencies?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was that?
A. Initially, Secret Service; and the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms had command posts at that facility until they
moved to another location.
Q. Now, is it true that those three agencies that you
mentioned are part of the Treasury Department?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Okay. Would you tell the jury what the distinction is
between law enforcement agents that work for the Treasury
Department and those that work for the Justice Department.
A. The series itself in terms of the criminal investigator
series is the same. They're 1811 series criminal
John Hensley - Cross
investigators. However, the agents in the Treasury Department,
the bureaus, work effectively for the Secretary of the
Treasury. Most of the statutes worked within the Treasury
Department have some basis in revenue, whether it's
counterfeit, or Marijuana Tax Stamp Act, or some other law.
The agents in the Justice Department work for the
Attorney General, even thou