The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Thursday, November 13, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 74)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:35 p.m., on the 13th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, REID
NEUREITER, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln
Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for
Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:31 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Jury in at 1:32 p.m.)
(Michael Fortier was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: Please resume the stand, Mr. Fortier.
Mr. Tigar, you may continue.
CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Fortier, over the break, we queued up a very short
video segment just to show a picture of you back in the April,
May, 1995 period.
Michael Fortier - Cross
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, this has been shown to the
Government. We'd like to show it now.
(Defendant's Exhibit D566 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That was it, Mr. Fortier.
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, sir --
THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Tigar. Was that marked
some way for the record?
MR. TIGAR: D566, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Fortier, you have had an opportunity, have you not, to
review the tape recordings that were made of the microphones
that were placed in your home and the tap on your phone?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And would you agree with me, sir, that beginning on the
25th of April, you began to talk about the possibilities that
might exist to you to sell your story to the media?
A. Yes.
Q. I'd like to play A8, April the 25th.
(Defendant's Exhibit A8 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Is that you?
A. Yes, sir.
Michael Fortier - Cross
(Defendant's Exhibit A8 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That's you and your brother talking?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. "And I could tell stories all day," that's you; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You also had a conversation with -- about CNN; correct?
With your brother John? Remember that on April the 25th?
MR. TIGAR: Could we have A9, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A9 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. And that was you talking about the possibility of being on
CNN; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was April the 25th?
A. I believe it was.
Q. And you were still talking to the FBI, but you hadn't
decided to tell them what you knew about Mr. McVeigh; correct?
The FBI.
A. I don't believe I was on speaking terms with the FBI at
that point.
Q. And did you become angry that CNN, you thought, had agreed
to pay you some money and then backed out?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever say "You know what, CNN sucks. They owe me
Michael Fortier - Cross
some money"?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Could we have A13, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A13 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That was you?
A. Yes.
Q. On April the 28th?
A. I believe it was on that date, but there was no agreement
between me and CNN to exchange money whatsoever.
Q. You just thought they -- well, why did you think they owed
you money, sir?
A. They had taken the clips from my interview with them and --
what I thought they did was pass it out to other -- like ABC,
NBC and CBS; and that's what I was upset about. I felt they
owed me money for distributing my image.
Q. You thought your story was worth something, didn't you,
sir?
A. I imagine it was to the -- the media.
MR. TIGAR: Could we have B1, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit B1 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That's you saying, "I was thinking one cool one"; is that
right?
A. Yes, sir. That's me.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. And that meant you were thinking of a million?
A. Yes. That's what I was referring to.
Q. And then did you also think about after the trial, doing
book and movie rights?
A. That is something that was discussed.
MR. TIGAR: May we have B2, please, April 30, 1995.
(Defendant's Exhibit B2 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Talking about something that's worth The Enquirer? Is that
what we heard?
A. I believe that's what I said.
Q. Now, did there come a time, sir, when your mother started
to make comments to the media?
A. I believe she did.
Q. And were you angry at her for making comments to the media?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did you not want her talking to the media?
A. That is correct.
Q. And when you heard a tape recording of her doing that, did
you react in a certain way?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: May we have B7, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit B7 played.)
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would object to this for
the reasons stated.
Michael Fortier - Cross
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead and play it.
(Defendant's Exhibit B7 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That's you, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you also talked in May with your friend Lonnie Hubbard
about the possibility of a made-for-TV movie; is that correct?
A. That is possible. I don't recall that.
MR. TIGAR: Could we have C2, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit C2 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. What you were -- that was you saying, "The bigger the price
is going to be later"; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You were being silent that time; correct? That is, you
weren't -- you weren't talking to the media at that time?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, at the time that all this was going on, had someone
named Kato become a celebrity?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you think of yourself kind of like that person
Kato?
A. No, I did not.
MR. TIGAR: Would you play C3, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit C3 played.)
Michael Fortier - Cross
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Is that you saying, "A real Kato, huh"?
A. Yes.
Q. And now, sir, do you remember a long conversation you had
with Mr. Lonnie Hubbard about how you would behave if you ever
became a witness in court?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And that was about the 8th of May, 1995?
A. Or thereabouts.
MR. TIGAR: May we have C4, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit C4 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, sir, during this period of time, you and the FBI, you
said, were not getting along very well. Is that fair to say?
A. That's correct.
Q. And there were times when the tapes captured your reactions
to what the FBI was asking you and how you were feeling about
it; correct?
A. That is correct.
MR. TIGAR: May we have A2 from April 25, 1995,
please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A2 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That was you and -- who was the other speaker there? Your
brother John?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And on April 25, did you also talk with your brother John
about news reports of sketches of John Doe No. 2?
A. I believe I did.
Q. Now, who did you understand John Doe No. 2 to be, sir?
A. I did not know who he was.
Q. But what did you understand that John Doe No. 2 talk to be
about? Something to do with this case?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: May we have A3, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A3 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Is that you talking about one needing to talk about an
alibi?
A. Yes, sir. That was me.
Q. Now, also on April the 25th, did you talk about having
bigger and better things to worry about? Do you remember that?
A. I believe I used those words.
MR. TIGAR: Could we have A5, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A5 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, the thing that was terrible that happened was the
bombing; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The bombing that you had seen that morning when you and Jim
Michael Fortier - Cross
Rosencrans turned off the video game?
A. That is correct.
Q. What bigger and better things did you have to worry about
right then, sir?
A. The media and the FBI being more or less in my face at that
time. That's what was concerning me and filling all of my
days.
Q. And feeling what?
A. And filling my days at that time.
Q. Now, when you say "filling" your days, you weren't going
down to the FBI to tell them everything you knew, were you?
A. No, sir, but they were sitting right out front.
Q. Now, in addition to sitting right out front, the FBI had
some talk with you about that John Doe No. 2 sketch, didn't
they?
A. I believe they did.
Q. April 25, 1995.
MR. TIGAR: Could we have A6, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A6 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, did someone imply that they were going to change the
sketch to make it look more like you?
A. I don't recall what they said to make me say that.
Q. Now, you do recall that you got very angry at the FBI;
right?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Okay. May we have A7, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A7 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, the "standing up and yelling in each other's face,"
that's you and the FBI; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the Arizona Republic, you were following the media
reports at this time; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You had took the Arizona Republic, which is the major
newspaper in Arizona; right?
A. I had received one copy of the Arizona Republic from my
neighbor.
Q. All right. And was that a copy that had a great deal of
information about the bombing and the investigation?
A. Yes. It was all about the bombing.
Q. In addition to the Arizona Republic copy that you had, did
you watch television regularly?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you listen to the radio regularly?
A. No.
Q. How many hours a day would you say that you watched
television programs of a news character during this period
beginning about the 21st of April and on until the 15th of May?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Half an hour at the 6:00 news and half an hour at the 10:00
news.
Q. And is it fair to say that on every major news program,
there was some information about the ongoing information?
A. That is fair.
Q. Now, did you talk to your friend Lonnie Hubbard about his
being down there, talking to the FBI?
A. We may have.
MR. TIGAR: And -- could we play A15, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A15 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, when you said, "I was too, until the last day," that
was in answer to Mr. Hubbard saying, "I was calm, I was really
loaded"; right?
Well, which were you in talking to the FBI, calm or
loaded?
A. On the last day on the 24th?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I was loaded. On the other days, I was just calm.
Q. All right. Well, you were calm except when you were in
each other's faces; correct?
A. That only happened on the last day.
Q. Okay. And that last day when you -- by "loaded," you mean
that you had been taking some substance into yourself?
A. The previous night, I was smoking crystal meth.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. And had you been up all night the previous night smoking
crystal meth?
A. Yes.
Q. How many nights in 1993 and '94 and '95 were you up all
night under the influence of methamphetamine?
A. Many.
Q. How many? More than you can remember?
A. It's difficult to recall every time. I'd have to do some
math right now for you.
Q. Some math?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you -- what's your dad's name?
A. His name is Paul.
Q. Did you talk to him about what was going on? About the
questioning?
A. I spoke with my father, yes.
Q. Did you talk to him about lying?
A. No, I did not tell him I was lying.
Q. No. No. Did you talk to him about whether or not a person
should lie?
A. I don't recall.
MR. TIGAR: May we have A18, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A18 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Was that your dad talking to you?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes, sir. That was him.
Q. And you said, "I haven't been lying to them"?
A. That's what I said.
Q. Now, in questioning you, did the FBI call you names? Did
they call you "baby killer"?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did that make you angry?
A. Yes, it did.
MR. TIGAR: May we have A19, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit 19 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, did there come a time in May when you began to talk
about a worry that you might be indicted?
A. Yes. I became worried in -- in May about that.
Q. And did you and your wife, Lori, talk about this
possibility that you might be indicted?
A. Yes.
Q. And --
MR. TIGAR: May we have B13, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit B13 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, that's your wife, Lori, talking about the grand jury
process; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And she says, "Well, correspond it all"; correct?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. That is what she said.
Q. Uh-huh. And the tape becomes unintelligible after that.
Did you discuss with her later how you would correspond it all?
A. That's what we were discussing. I was worried because I
was lying so much to everybody; and once I got in front of a
grand jury, I did not think I would be able to get away with
all those lies. And that -- and she was encouraging me to
continue to lie by corresponding it all.
Q. She was doing what?
A. She was encouraging me to lie still.
Q. Oh, by getting your stories together? Is that what
"correspond it all" meant to you?
A. Not together. But just get my own story straight.
Q. Now, in addition to the questions about the media and the
others, there were some conversations that were captured about
narcotics; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: Could we have A14, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A14 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, "Lori wants me to load the pipe again," what kind of a
pipe is that that you're using?
A. It was a tinfoil pipe.
Q. That's what you described before where you put heat under
it and then ingest the -- what do you -- get the smoke from it
Michael Fortier - Cross
or something --
A. Yes.
Q. -- like that? Okay. Now, have you been charged with any
offenses related to the use of narcotics?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Have you been promised that you will not be charged with
any offenses related to the use of narcotics prior to the date
of your plea agreement?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. In other words, you do not expect to be prosecuted
for any narcotics use; correct?
A. I believe it says in my plea agreement that any crimes that
I have divulged at that time I would not be prosecuted for
besides the four felonies.
Q. Now, you told us earlier about Mr. McVeigh and his attitude
towards the children that you were going to baby-sit. Do you
recall that, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And isn't it a fact, sir, that your daughter, Kayla, was
getting on his nerves because he didn't like to be around a
two-year-old?
A. I believe that's fair to say.
MR. TIGAR: Could we have A20, please.
(Defendant's Exhibit A20 played.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Now, do you know a person named Steve Colbern?
A. No, sir, I do not. I know of him.
Q. And did the FBI ask you about him?
A. I believe they only showed me a picture of him and asked me
if I knew him.
Q. And that's the only way -- that's the only knowledge you
have of him; is that right?
A. No, sir.
Q. Oh. What other personal knowledge do you have of him?
A. He is a person that Tim McVeigh was being introduced to by
a guy named Bob in Arkansas.
Q. By a guy named Bob what?
A. Bob in Arkansas.
Q. Oh, Bob in Arkansas. That's this Bob?
A. Yes.
Q. And did Mr. McVeigh tell you that Bob in Arkansas had
introduced him to Mr. Steve Colbern?
A. No. He -- Bob in Arkansas was trying to get them together
to introduce them to each other.
Q. And that's what Mr. McVeigh told you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. McVeigh gave you a -- a letter once to mail to
Bob, didn't he?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he give you a letter to mail to Bob more than once?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. No. Just only once.
Q. Do you know what other names Bob has other than Bob?
A. I believe his name is Roger Moore.
Q. And did you learn that before May the 17th, 1995, or after?
A. After.
Q. After.
A. I believe it was after. It was definitely after the
bombing.
Q. Now, sir, there came a time when you got a grand jury
subpoena; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You and your wife, Lori, went to Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you -- you stayed in a motel?
A. Yes.
Q. Shared a room at a motel, of course?
A. Yes.
Q. And on (sic) 4:30 p.m. on the 17th of May, 1995, did you
call the FBI?
A. I called a number that was on the subpoena. I don't know
if it was the FBI or not.
Q. And did you later that day speak to some FBI agents?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they Agents Volz and Zimms?
A. Yes, they were.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Now, they got there at about 5:35 p.m.; correct?
A. That sounds right.
Q. And you told them you wanted to correct the statements that
you had made to the FBI in Kingman, Arizona; is that right?
A. Yes. I said that to them.
Q. And Mrs. -- your wife, Lori, what -- how does she like to
be referred to? Mrs. Fortier, Ms. Fortier? What --
A. Mrs.
Q. Mrs. Okay. Mrs. Fortier said that she wanted to correct
her statements, as well; correct?
A. Yes. That was her intentions, also.
Q. Now, you showed them a rough-draft proffer; correct?
A. I don't remember doing so.
Q. Now, you also said that you were fearful of reprisals from
the Aryan movement if you testified against Timothy McVeigh;
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, the -- you also said that you did not want
Mrs. Fortier to appear before a federal grand jury; correct?
A. I don't remember saying that.
Q. Now, you were asked if you wanted to correct your prior
statements; correct? The FBI asked you that?
A. No, sir, they did not.
Q. Do you remember a time when the agents left the room?
A. Yes, I do. May I refer back to the last question?
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Of course.
A. The purpose for the agents coming to my motel room was I
was wanting to correct my statements. So there came a time
when the FBI agents left the room; and when they came back,
they asked me if I still wanted to correct my statements.
Q. Well, isn't it the way it happened, sir, that the agents
got there, you told them you wanted to correct your statement,
you talked about reprisals and that you didn't want
Mrs. Fortier to go before the grand jury and then they asked
you do you still want to correct your statement?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And then the next thing that happened, sir,
isn't it, is that you and Mrs. Fortier started to talk amongst
yourself about just exactly what you were going to do?
A. Yes.
Q. And then the next thing that happened, sir, was that the
two FBI (sic) just left the room? Isn't that what happened?
A. Yes.
Q. And while the FBI agents were out of the room, you and
Mrs. Fortier talked; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was agreed that they would go away for an hour; is that
right?
A. I believe it was, yes.
Q. Now, when the agents came back in, you turned to
Michael Fortier - Cross
Mrs. Fortier and said, "Correct your statement," or words to
that effect; right?
A. That's what the 302's reflect. I don't remember saying
that to her.
Q. You have read the FBI report; is that right?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Okay. You don't remember it that way; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And then did she turn to you and say, "No, you correct
yours"?
A. That's what the 302's say.
Q. Is that what you remember?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did the FBI agents then leave the room again for a few
minutes?
A. Yes.
Q. You do remember that?
A. I do remember that.
Q. Then you stepped out of the room; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went to speak with Special Agents (sic) Volz.
Q. Physically where was that?
A. Outside the room on the balcony.
Q. This is a balcony on the second floor?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is the motel? What motel is it?
A. I don't know which motel it is.
Q. It's a motel in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Does the Motel 6 refresh your recollection?
A. I -- I'm not sure which motel it was.
Q. And you told the agents in effect, "I want immunity, and
I'll give you Tim McVeigh"? Isn't that what you said?
A. In effect, that is what I said.
Q. And they told you that they didn't have the power to give
you immunity, didn't they?
A. I don't remember them saying that.
Q. Did they tell you that they were going to give you
immunity?
A. No, sir, they did not.
Q. Did they tell you that they weren't?
A. I don't remember them saying they weren't.
Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that they told you that you would not
and could not be granted immunity by the interviewing agents
and that only prosecutors involved could do that?
A. I don't remember them saying that.
Q. Didn't they tell you, sir, that they didn't need you to
make a case against Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, I do remember Special Agents (sic) Volz saying that.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. And after they told you that, you went back in the room;
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you and Mrs. Fortier began to talk; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You've read the report of that interview, haven't you, sir?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. How long an interview was that?
A. I believe it lasted for about a half hour.
Q. And in that interview, you told the agents that you knew
Terry Nichols; correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. And Mrs. Fortier told the agents that Mr. McVeigh and Terry
Nichols had been to their house -- had been to you alls' house
together in Mr. Nichols' pickup truck; correct?
A. I don't really remember what my wife said to them.
Q. And you told them that -- find it here -- Mr. Nichols had
called you once and said that he had gotten your telephone
number from Mr. McVeigh. Do you remember that?
A. I may have said that to them.
Q. And Mr. Mc --
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: 3498.
MR. MEARNS: What page?
Michael Fortier - Cross
MR. TIGAR: 7.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Show you now, what I -- well, would you look at it first,
sir, and see is that the FBI 302 of report of interview of the
conversation about which we've been speaking on the 17th of
May, 1995, in Oklahoma City at the Motel 6?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, would you look at page 7, sir, the bottom. See the
bottom paragraph there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you told the
agents about the visit that the Nichols had had at their --
your house with Mrs. Nichols and the baby Nicole?
A. Yes, I do not dispute that. I just do not remember telling
the FBI that.
Q. I understand. I'm just -- I'm showing it to you to refresh
your recollection. Right?
A. Yes. I see it, and I agree with it.
Q. Okay. And now, would you look, please, sir, at the top
here of page 8. And does that refresh your recollection that
Mrs. Fortier told the agents about the -- Mr. McVeigh and
Mr. Nichols arriving together in the truck?
A. Still, I don't -- I don't remember her saying that, but I
don't dispute it.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Okay. You wanted to come clean, didn't you?
A. That was my intentions.
Q. And you didn't tell the FBI anything about Terry Nichols
there while you were coming clean other than the fact that he
came to your house one time with his baby daughter and his
wife; isn't that right?
A. That is right. I was -- I did not come clean in that
interview. I lied to the FBI throughout that interview.
Q. Oh, you lied more throughout this?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't lie about Mr. Nichols coming to your house with
his baby and his wife, did you, because he did come?
A. Yes. That is true.
Q. And Mrs. Fortier, if she told them that they came one time
in Mr. Nichols' truck, she didn't lie about that, did she?
A. I don't think so.
Q. And those are the only things you told them. In addition
to that -- well, the agent -- didn't the agent also tell you
after he said that he didn't need you to make the case against
McVeigh; that you'd have to give them somebody else?
A. I do not remember him saying that.
Q. Now, you also told the agents that you had an opinion about
who Unknown Subject No. 2 was; correct?
A. I told him who it could -- possibly could be.
Q. And who did you understand Unknown Subject 2 to be?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. It could have been one of many people.
Q. But what -- what was the context? Why -- who -- this Un.
Sub. 2, that was the kind of a -- a law enforcement name for
somebody that helped with the bombing?
A. Yes. John Doe 2.
Q. Yeah.
A. The agents would ask me who -- who do you think it is, or
do you think it could be this person, and I would say yes or
no.
Q. Yeah. And you told them that it could be Bob from
Arkansas, didn't you?
A. Sure, it could have been. I've never seen Bob. It was
just a guess.
Q. Now, you were interviewed again by the agents on the 30th
of May, 1995, weren't you, sir?
A. I believe so.
Q. By Agents Zimms and Volz?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And did you tell them at that time that you and
Mr. McVeigh had attempted to alter a number on a plastic stock
of a .50 caliber rifle?
A. No, sir, I believe that's a mistake by the agent.
Q. All right.
A. I did that myself. Tim did not help me with that.
Q. Oh, you did that yourself?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you want to change a number on the stock?
A. It was on the .50 cal because I was planning on keeping the
.50 cal and I knew it was stolen, so I didn't want the stolen
number on there.
Q. You -- you thought it was stolen; right? You didn't know
it was stolen?
A. That was my belief.
Q. Right. And your belief again is based on nothing other
than what Timothy McVeigh told you; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, there came a time, sir, when you took a trip to Kansas
with the agents. Do you remember that?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And you drove around Kansas and had a lot of discussion
with the agents about what you were seeing and about other
subjects; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, that was a time you told the agents about Mr. McVeigh
asking you to get a number in Bullhead City, Arizona; correct?
A. I talked to them about that on that -- at that time.
Q. Yes. He wanted you to get the phone number of a white
supremacist group. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And in addition to that, you said that you were not aware
Michael Fortier - Cross
of anyone McVeigh could reach out to help him other -- for help
except for Rosencrans; correct? Do you remember saying that?
A. Not -- not exactly.
MR. TIGAR: D9171, page 4.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I show you now what is a report of investigation dated
6-23-95. Ask you to look at page 4, the bottom paragraph, and
ask you if that refreshes your recollection, sir.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, in fact, you did have a conversation with
Mr. McVeigh in which you told him that -- excuse me. You -- it
was your opinion that Rosencrans was somebody that McVeigh
could reach out to; correct?
A. Is it my opinion that Rosencrans is somebody McVeigh could
reach out to?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Sure.
Q. You had a conversation with him about Rosencrans doing some
driving; correct?
A. Tim told me that he had asked Rosencrans to give him a
ride.
Q. And Rosencrans was the dope dealer next door; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The man that you used to help stash some of the things to
keep out of the way of the search; correct?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was the conversation about driving -- was that before
or after McVeigh told you that he wanted you to be a desperado?
A. I believe it was after.
Q. So the first thing that happens is McVeigh says, insulting,
that you're domesticated; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then -- and he tells you he wants you to be a
desperado, but you refused; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you refused because you had a baby and another on the
way; correct?
A. Absolutely.
Q. You refused because you were a married fellow, hoped to put
your life together and -- and live within the law; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And he was asking you to do things but you refused; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, he had gypped you out of some money in December --
right -- in the trip?
A. He did.
Q. And then you went to gun shows later on with him; right?
Why did you continue to go to gun shows with him if -- if he'd
already gypped you once?
A. He didn't actually gyp me at one time. When I found out
Michael Fortier - Cross
that he had gypped me would be after all the gun shows were
finished and I found out that all those weapons did not equal
$10,000.
Q. I see. So -- but you -- you were doing business with him,
but he already told you that he had -- that he had these views
that you disagreed with; right?
A. Yes.
Q. He'd already told you he was going to do something that you
knew was against the law; right?
A. Yes.
Q. But he's -- he still knew how to work a gun show, didn't
he?
A. Yes.
Q. He knew how to go to a gun show and register and make
money; right?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And then when you found out -- you found out at some point
that he was a really very bad actor; right? That you didn't
want to have anything more to do with him?
A. Well, he became aggressive towards me. That's why I didn't
want anything to do with him.
Q. So you quit having something to do with him; right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, in that same trip that you took, you said that you
knew about a note on a telephone pole from (sic) Steve Colbern
Michael Fortier - Cross
from the media; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You said you knew about Dave Paulsen, Ed Paulsen, and Kevin
Nicholas from watching TV; correct?
A. Yes. Although I believe Mr. McVeigh may have mentioned
this guy Nicholas.
Q. Well, I'll ask you about that in a minute, but the answer
to the first question is you had heard those names, Paulsen and
Nicholas, from the TV; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were following the TV carefully enough in those
early days that by the 21st of June, you could still remember
the names and what you'd heard on the TV; right?
A. I don't know if I could or not.
Q. Do you have any quarrel with the -- with the assertion that
you did tell the agents on the 21st and 22d that you did
remember those names from TV?
A. No, I have no quarrel with that.
Q. Now, you said a moment ago that Mr. McVeigh had told you
some things. He told you he was going to sell the
Christmas-wrapped blasting caps to someone in -- to a -- what,
a friend in Michigan?
A. I don't remember if he said a friend. He said he was going
to sell the blasting caps in Michigan.
Q. Now, in addition to the half a bag that -- of ammonium
Michael Fortier - Cross
nitrate that you got from McVeigh -- start -- where do you
think that half a bag of ammonium nitrate you got from
Mr. McVeigh came from? Do you know?
A. It was my guess it came from True Value.
Q. Were you aware that Mr. McVeigh had bought fertilizer --
ammonium nitrate fertilizer at the True Value hardware store in
Kingman, Arizona?
A. No, sir, I did not see him do that.
Q. Did you tell the agents that you were aware that he had
bought some?
A. I may have.
MR. TIGAR: Page 9.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I show you, sir, page 9 of that report of interview, and I
ask you to look at the last paragraph; and then with that, tell
us whether your recollection is refreshed that you told the
agents that Mr. McVeigh had purchased ammonium nitrate
fertilizer at the True Value hardware.
A. Yes, I very well could have said that to them. It is my
best guess that that's where he got that ammonium nitrate while
he was living in Kingman.
Q. Thank you, sir. Now, Mr. McVeigh also described to you
during some conversation that -- about fertilizer purchases;
correct?
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Now, he told you, did he not, that Terry Nichols had
screwed up a fertilizer purchase?
A. That is what he said to me.
Q. And he told you that since Terry Nichols screwed up the
purchase, he, McVeigh, had to do the next one? Did he tell you
that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you don't know whether he was telling the truth about
this or not, do you?
A. No, I don't.
Q. And whatever he said on this subject, he didn't say it when
Terry Nichols was present; did he?
A. That is correct.
Q. You have never in your life had a discussion with Terry
Nichols about ammonium nitrate, have you, sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you also told the agents that you could not recall
Mr. Terry Nichols ever using your telephone or coming into your
house except for the one -- excuse me -- you could not recall
him ever using your telephone; correct?
A. That is right.
Q. And you could not recall him ever coming into your house
except for that one time that he was there with Mrs. Nichols
and little baby, Nicole?
A. That is true.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Now, Mr. McVeigh, however, did use your telephone, didn't
he, sir?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Certainly had access to it; right?
A. He had my permission. Free use of the phone.
Q. Now, during October of 1994, were you working at the True
Value hardware store?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Do you remember receiving a call from Mr. McVeigh on the
1st of October, 1994?
A. I couldn't pin it down to that date. I remember receiving
a phone call during that time period.
Q. Do you remember -- would it refresh your recollection if I
showed you this record of two telephone calls, one to True
Value and one to your house?
A. Yes.
Q. It does refresh your recollection? See, there are two
telephone calls here, one 2 minutes and 26 seconds, the other 9
minutes and 48 seconds.
A. This -- no, it does not help with this one.
Q. Does not?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right.
A. That is the one to Kingman True Value.
Q. Now, the second call, however, could that be one of these
Michael Fortier - Cross
calls that you told us about earlier, Mr. McVeigh calling you,
asking you to do things?
A. It could be.
Q. Now, on the 7th of October, 1994, do you know where
Mr. McVeigh was?
A. No, sir. Except I believe he was in and around Kingman.
Q. Were you at work that day?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you know what day of the week the 7th was?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I showed you a pocket
calendar, and could we agree it was a Friday?
A. Are we on the 7th?
Q. Yes. The 7th, sir. Somewhere in there, yes.
A. Yes. I agree it was a Friday.
Q. Thank you. Was Friday a normal workday for you at the True
Value hardware store in Kingman, Arizona, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So on that day, at -- and did you come home for lunch or
did you work throughout the day, usually?
A. No. I usually went home for lunch either at noon or at 1.
Q. Well, did you call the Arctic -- the Arctic Travel there in
Alamogordo, New Mexico, on the 7th?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you call VP Racing Fuels in Manhattan, Kansas, on the
Michael Fortier - Cross
7th?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Have you ever called VP Racing Fuels?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you call Coogle Trucking, Inc., in Otterbein, Indiana,
on the 7th?
A. Unless -- if that was -- call was made from Kingman True
Value, I may have. Otherwise, no.
Q. No, sir, it was not. But you didn't -- did anyone -- did
you, from your house, call Coogle Trucking, Incorporated?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Okay. Have you ever called Coogle Trucking, Incorporated,
from your house?
A. No, sir.
Q. So that if a record showed that a telephone call was made
from your home phone to those entities whose names I've read
out, that would have been done without your knowledge; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, in driving around with the agents there in June of
1995, you also talked about the storage locker E10 in Kingman,
Arizona; correct?
A. Most likely, we did.
Q. Now, were you with Mr. McVeigh in February of 1995 in or
near that storage locker?
A. No, sir.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. How many times have you visited that storage locker?
A. Three times.
Q. The first time was the evening that you told us about when
Mr. McVeigh showed you explosives; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. The second time was to stash the O2 bottle that you, Jim
Rosencrans, and Jason Hart stole; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, Jason Hart, is he related to Mrs. Fortier?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. What is Jason Hart's profession?
A. I don't believe he works.
Q. Did he sell you things, sir?
A. Many times, he tried, yes.
Q. He was your dealer, wasn't he?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did he try to sell you?
A. Junk.
Q. Sir, is it your testimony that Mr. Hart never tried to sell
you narcotics?
A. No, sir, that is not my testimony.
Q. All right. What -- would you tell us about Mr. Hart and
narcotics, please; what you know.
A. I know that he uses narcotics and he on occasion tries to
sell narcotics, but he was not my dealer.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Did he ever sell you narcotics?
A. I can remember once or twice that he did, yes.
Q. And did he ever give you narcotics?
A. Yes. On many times.
Q. I'm sorry? Many times?
A. A few times.
Q. A few times. And what narcotics did you get from him?
A. Crystal meth.
Q. Any other kind?
A. Not that I can recall. No. Excuse me. That's where I got
that bunk LSD from was from Mr. Hart.
Q. The --
A. The LSD.
Q. The bonk (sic) LSD, did you say?
A. Yes.
Q. What does "bonk" mean?
A. Bunk. It's no good.
Q. Oh, bunk LSD. Okay.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, and what was the third time you went to the storage
unit?
A. I went to the storage unit with a man named Terry. I don't
know his last name. He's the gentleman that I gave one of the
weapons to go to Phoenix to get drugs. I was with him in his
car one day when he stopped by a unit that he had -- he was
Michael Fortier - Cross
renting. He had to get something out of it.
Q. And the man's first name is what?
A. The man's name was Terry.
Q. Terry. Not Terry Nichols?
A. No, sir.
Q. No. This was somebody who you'd traded a gun for drugs
with; right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So it's three times you've been to that storage
unit; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, didn't you tell the FBI on the 21st or 22d of June
that you'd only been there twice?
A. I may have. That would have just been an innocent mistake.
Q. Pardon me?
A. That would have been just an innocent mistake.
Q. An innocent mistake. Well, by the 21st or 22d of June,
were you trying not to make mistakes when you were talking to
the FBI?
A. I absolutely was.
Q. Now, during the period between April the 21st and May the
17th, did you have any conversations with James Rosencrans
about the investigation?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you urge him to tell the truth?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. I believe I did.
Q. Now -- and of course, Mr. Rosencrans is your next-door
neighbor. You know him; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever -- were you ever in Mr. Rosencrans' presence,
you and Mr. McVeigh, in full BBU's, camouflage military battle
dress with full backpacks and weapons?
A. No, sir.
Q. You deny that?
A. I do deny that.
Q. Now, you mentioned that Mr. McVeigh had asked you to max
out your credit cards. Do you recall that, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you said you thought that was a way for him to get a
free ride?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you mean? What was your understanding of that?
What did you mean, "free ride"?
A. He asked me if I would be willing to in the future max out
my credit cards and give him the money. It was my impression
that he was going to use that money to pay for his food and
lodging so he would not have to work and pay for himself.
Q. Now, did he offer to pay you back this money that you were
going to use to give him a free ride?
A. No, sir, he did not offer to pay me back.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Now, you told us that Mr. McVeigh had mentioned that --
that he wanted to go to -- one time, he said he wanted somebody
to drive him to the desert and another time, he said he wanted
someone to drive him to Arkansas. Do you remember that?
A. Yes, sir. That is correct.
Q. Now, he asked you to drive him to the desert; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you said no.
A. Yes.
Q. And the Arkansas, was that something that he was saying he
wanted Rosencrans to do?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, just to be clear, sir, you have never been in Terry
Nichols' house; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. So that if any fingerprints of yours were found in Terry
Nichols' house, that would be for some other reason than your
having been there; correct?
A. Absolutely.
Q. How many times during the month of October, 1994, did you
see Mr. Nichols? You told us once he came over just before the
31st. Just before you bought your Jeep; right?
A. That is true.
Q. Okay. And when you say "just before," you think within a
week or so?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Within a week, yes.
Q. Okay. And then you said you saw him earlier in the month;
right? Was he clean-shaven on both occasions?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. He didn't have a beard?
A. I had never remembered Nichols having a beard.
Q. Okay. Now, sir, I'd like to show you some exhibits, some
things that were taken from . . .
MR. TIGAR: I'll go on to something else, your Honor,
while they are finding that exhibit.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I show you now, sir, what has been --
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. -- what has been marked as Defendant's 397 for
identification. And the first page is a Government document.
I'm asking you, please, to look at the second page and tell us
whether you recognize the handwriting.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And whose is that, sir?
A. That is my handwriting.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we offer pages 1 and 2 of 397.
397 is a self-authenticating Government document, and page 2
Michael Fortier - Cross
is -- Mr. Fortier has just identified.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. D397 is received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I'm placing up on the device here what has been received in
evidence as Government's 397, page 2.
THE COURT: Defendant's 397.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me. Defendant's 397, your Honor.
I almost forgot what side I'm on. Pardon me. Defendant's --
D397. Am I not pushing the right button? I've now taken --
Ms. Hasfjord has taken the lens cap off the device, your Honor,
and it now works perfectly.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Fortier, this is a firearms transaction record;
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you filled it out, did you not? On July 17, 1993?
Right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were asked are you an unlawful user or addicted to
marijuana or any depressant, stimulant or narcotic drug or any
other controlled substance; and you answered no. Correct?
A. That is true.
Q. And then you signed it; right?
A. Yes, I did.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. And before you signed it, did you read the part that says,
"I hereby certify that the answers to the above are true and
correct. I understand that a person who answers yes is
prohibited from purchasing and/or possessing a firearm except
as otherwise provided by federal law. I also understand that
the making of any false oral or written statement or the
exhibiting of any false or misrepresented identification with
respect to this transaction is a crime punishable as a felony"?
Did you read that?
A. I do not recall. Most likely, I skipped that part.
Q. Well, was the "no" true?
A. No, the "no" was false.
Q. Why did you put a false statement on a firearms record,
sir?
A. Because I knew that if you answered yes, they would not let
you buy the weapon.
Q. You committed a federal felony because you wanted to have a
gun?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Sir, I have now what has been identified as Defendant's
Exhibit D390; and I ask you, sir, are these two issues of The
Spotlight, the newspaper to which you subscribed, bearing your
address label?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: We offer them, your Honor.
Michael Fortier - Cross
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, D390. But there are two of them
with the same number?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. It's a group exhibit.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. TIGAR: And they are dated May the 1st, 1995, and
April 17, 1995.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That was the subscription you were telling us about
earlier; correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, just because you subscribed didn't mean you agreed
with everything that was in there, did you?
A. That is correct.
Q. I show you, sir, what has been marked as Defendant's
Exhibit D463. I ask you if that is some literature that was
taken from your home.
A. I don't really recognize this.
Q. Go on to something else.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, to speed this up, I'm going to
give him a whole notebook at once, if I may.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I'm going to place this in front of you, sir; and I'll ask
you, please, will you turn to Tab No. 484. Is that a -- a gun
Michael Fortier - Cross
purchase form dated December, 1993? Looking at page 2, D484.
A. This is a firearms transaction record.
Q. And whose is it?
A. It is mine.
Q. Did you sign it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make the same false --
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. Offer D484.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Did you make the same false statement, sir?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what -- what gun was it that you told the lie to get
there?
A. This was a 10/22.
Q. What's a 10/22?
A. It's a small arms. It's a .22 caliber rifle.
Q. Would you look at D485, sir. Is that a firearms
transaction record?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whose is that?
A. This is mine.
Q. And is that --
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
Michael Fortier - Cross
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D485 is received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. -- July, 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you lie?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it the same lie?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What gun did you get for that lie?
A. Two guns, actually. A .38 pistol and a Mini-14 rifle.
Q. Now, under your plea agreement, you will not be prosecuted
for any one of the lies you've told on these firearms forms; is
that correct, sir?
A. I do not believe so.
THE COURT: I'm not sure of the answer. You don't
believe it's correct --
THE WITNESS: I don't believe I'm going to be
prosecuted for this.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. And would you look, please, at D486, please.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a handwritten letter?
A. Yes, it is.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Now, is that document in your handwriting?
A. No, sir, it is not.
Q. Whose handwriting is it in?
A. I believe it is my wife's.
Q. Have you ever seen the letter before?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a document that you and your wife worked on
jointly?
A. No, sir, it is not.
Q. That's hers exclusively?
A. Yes. I have read this letter before; and there are some of
the things that I was saying at that time being right after the
bombing that is written down here, but I did not work with her
on this.
Q. All right. Would you turn, please, to D491. Is that a Kit
Kat candy bar wrapper with notes on it by you?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. When did you write that?
A. It was either late April or early May of 1995.
MR. TIGAR: May I approach for a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D491 is received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. May I take it out of the book here, sir, just so I can
display it. Looking first -- there's the Kit Kat candy bar
side; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then we have your notes. Now, did you give this to the
FBI?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Well, why would you use a Kit Kat candy bar wrapper to send
a note to the FBI?
A. I have no idea. I just grabbed a piece of paper and wrote
a note on it.
Q. It said, "Heard about Colbern on the news. Want to see his
picture. Maybe I could be of help." Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is that a reference to this Colbern fellow that you
had heard about being somehow connected with Roger or Bob of
Arkansas and Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. And was the help related to what you've already told us
that you know about Mr. Colbern?
A. No.
Q. Well, how were you going to help the FBI -- This is in
April; right?
A. April or May. I'm not sure.
Q. Was it before May the 17th?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Well, the Michael Fortier before May the 17th wasn't very
inclined to be helping the FBI, was he?
A. That is true.
Q. You were in their face and they were calling you names and
what we heard on the tape; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, what help were you going to be to the FBI by passing
them the Kit Kat candy bar wrapper with the Colbern note?
A. I had heard on the news that Mr. Colbern was in the Kingman
area, and I was going to talk to them; and I thought if I could
look at his picture again more closely -- maybe I had seen him
around -- I could tell them that.
Q. Well, why were you going to do that?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Well, did -- did you want to get Mr. Colbern in trouble?
A. No, sir. I would not say anything about Mr. Colbern that
was not true.
Q. Well, you knew somebody was looking for Mr. Colbern; right?
A. I'm not sure if they were looking for him. But he was
certainly on the news. I don't remember exactly what they said
about him.
Q. You had heard his name in the news as being someone
connected to the bombing; right?
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. And you were passing the agents a Kit Kat candy bar wrapper
with the Colbern name in order to put the agents onto
Mr. Colbern; correct?
A. No. I was only going to offer my help, and I was going to
tell them if I had seen him around or not.
Q. And this -- you're going to offer this help at this time
before May 17. You had no idea whether Mr. Colbern had
anything at all to do with this, did you, sir?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Would you turn, please, to D497. And is that a newspaper
that was found in your house?
A. I believe it is.
Q. Now, the copy that we have is -- has some markings on it;
correct? I mean, it looks like it's -- some parts of it are
obliterated.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, would you look at the very last page.
A. Okay.
Q. And that's an address label; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It's your address?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D497 received.
Michael Fortier - Cross
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, do you know, sir, whether or not the original from
which this copy was taken is smudged so that the marks that are
on the copy are reflected on the original?
A. No, sir, I do not know.
Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if I showed you
what appears to be the original and you can compare and see
that the markings are on that?
A. Yes. They --
Q. Okay. The copy is just as bad as the original; right?
A. It looks like it.
Q. Okay. Would you turn, please, to page -- excuse me -- to
Item 501, please.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, is that a paper that you wrote?
A. Yes, sir. It's a term paper.
Q. For college?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was in your house?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D501 is received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, sir, just put this on here. The paper is called,
Michael Fortier - Cross
"Freedom for All"; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it is a study of the constitutional right to keep and
bear arms; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And among the things that you cite is The Citizens'
Rulebook from Liberty Lobby; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And this is a paper that shows that you're a -- you know,
some of your constitutionalist views; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, sir, would you turn to Tab 511, please. Without
reading from it, can you tell us first do you remember whether
that was in your house, or not?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you ever remember reading sections of the code related
to the issues that are in there?
A. Yes.
Q. When do you remember reading -- without regard to the
exhibit, when were you studying sections of the code related to
being an accomplice?
A. I don't remember reading that.
Q. Do you see -- again, do you see the very first thing on the
top of the page, the definition and then the word? Does that
refresh your recollection?
Michael Fortier - Cross
And with your recollection thus refreshed, do you ever
remember reading anything on that subject?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. All right. Would you turn, please, to page 512.
A. May I explain what I did read in this?
Q. I'm sorry, sir. It's not in evidence and I don't want -- I
don't want to offer something in evidence that I can't
establish a foundation for. Let me ask a few questions and see
if we can get someplace with it. All right?
A. Sure.
Q. Do you -- do you remember reading what I just showed you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. Not that portion.
Q. Not that portion. Okay. Do you remember reading some
other portion?
A. Yes. I believe in this would be rules and regulations on
how to earn -- excuse me -- when it would be proper to use a
firearm in self-defense.
Q. I see. So you were reading up on firearms in self-defense;
correct?
A. Yes. In conjunction with a firearms safety class.
Q. Okay. And so this was provisions of the law that related
to when you could use deadly force; correct?
A. That is correct.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. All right. Doesn't have anything to do with what we've
been talking about up to now; correct?
A. Well, it does have to do with my views on the Second
Amendment.
Q. It has to do with your views as a constitutionalist and the
Second Amendment?
A. That's true.
Q. Well, I'm not going to offer it into evidence, then,
because we understand about your views.
Would you take a look at 513. Was that in your house?
A. I do recognize this. I believe it was in my house.
Q. Where did you get it?
A. I got this from Tim McVeigh.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: E513 received.
MR. TIGAR: 512, your Honor. If I misspoke -- D512.
MR. MEARNS: I understood 513, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry, your Honor.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Would you look at 512, please. I apologize. Did you get
that from Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. I got this from Mr. McVeigh, also.
Q. Was it in your house?
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Cross
MR. TIGAR: We offer 512 and 513, your Honor. D512
and D513.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Placing now up here D512, this is a prayer; correct?
Patriot's Prayer?
A. Yes, sir. That is what it is.
Q. And among the things it prays "to voice our declaration of
independence against the New World Order"; correct? Do you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you agree with the sentiments expressed in this
prayer?
A. Yes.
Q. And then D513 that you got from Mr. McVeigh is called,
"Communist Rules for Revolution"; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. McVeigh wasn't -- wasn't a communist, was he?
A. No, sir. I don't believe so.
Q. No. This is a -- an opposition to what the communists
think; correct? Is that right?
A. I believe so.
Q. Now, sir, will you turn to 516. Is that a document that
was taken from your house?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where did you get it?
A. I also got this from Tim McVeigh.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D516 received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. And this is a newsletter that is against the New World
Order, among other things; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. McVeigh gave it to you, and you put it in your
house; right?
A. Yes. He gave me most all of this stuff in one big stack in
the spring of 1994.
Q. When -- when was it?
A. In the spring of 1994.
Q. Where -- and this is one more instance of Mr. McVeigh
giving literature about his favorite causes to people; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, would you look, please, at 517. Is that something
else you got from Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
Michael Fortier - Cross
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, this one, if I put it up here -- this is one about
"U.S. Government Initiates Open Warfare Against American
People"; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did Mr. McVeigh give you an original of this document,
or did -- was what he gave you a copy?
A. I don't remember.
Q. And do you see on page 1 here the quote from Thomas
Jefferson? Correct? "The growth and course of history . . ."
A. I see that.
Q. Now, did you know that Mr. McVeigh had a T-shirt that had a
slogan from Thomas Jefferson on it?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Is that that slogan that has the tree with the blood
droplets on it?
A. Yes.
Q. He wore that to your daughter's birthday party, didn't he?
A. No, sir. That wasn't my daughter.
Q. Oh. Whose birthday party? I'm sorry. He wore it to some
child's birthday party?
A. Yes. I believe that's what you're referring to.
Q. What child's birthday party did he wear the tree-with-the-
droplets-of-blood T-shirt to?
A. A friend of my wife's.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. Will you turn, please, to page D518. Is this something you
got from Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it found in your house?
A. I believe it was.
Q. Did you read it?
A. I don't remember doing so.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D518 received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. This is an article entitled, "Noplace to Hide"; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And from what you know about it, does it have to do with
government intrusion into people's privacy?
A. I imagine so.
Q. Do you know who Frank Snepp is, the author?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, would you please just take your -- take a moment,
please, and read -- and leaf through 519, 520, 521, 522, 523,
524, 525, and 526. And I'll ask you -- I want to ask you the
same question: Were they found in your house and did you get
them from Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: We offer those, your Honor.
Michael Fortier - Cross
MR. MEARNS: 521 through 526?
THE COURT: 519 through --
MR. TIGAR: 519.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received. D519 through D526.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, you previously told us, did you not, about staying --
did you stay in a motel in St. George, Utah, with Mr. McVeigh
in connection with the gun show there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And was that -- did the two of you occupy a single room on
that occasion?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would you look at D527, please. Do you know -- do you
recognize that?
A. I recognize the handwriting on it.
Q. But that's not something you've ever seen before; is that
right?
A. That is right.
Q. All right. Would you look, please, at D528. Was that in
your house and did you get it from Tim McVeigh?
A. This most likely was found in my house and taken from my
house. And by the date, I would say that I had a subscription
at that time, so this would have came through the mail, not
through Tim McVeigh.
Michael Fortier - Cross
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: No objection to 528.
THE COURT: D528 received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, from the copy we have, it appears that there was some
highlighting placed on there at one time. Do you ever remember
seeing a copy of that issue with highlighting on it?
A. No. I don't remember doing that --
Q. Do you remember --
A. -- seeing that.
Q. Do you ever remember seeing a copy with highlighting on it?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh -- when he gave you literature, did he ever
give you literature that had highlighting?
A. Yes. On occasion.
Q. Now, you told us earlier, sir, that Mr. McVeigh had been
the best man at your wedding; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And where -- where was that wedding held?
A. In Las Vegas.
Q. At the Treasure Island hotel?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. I'm going to show you now what has been marked as
Defendant's D552 and ask you if that is an Arizona Republic
that was taken from your home.
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: We offer it, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: No objection.
THE COURT: D552 received.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, if -- if I may have the
afternoon recess now, I could collect my notes and be done in a
very few minutes.
THE COURT: How could I refuse an invitation like
that? I'll accept.
You may step down, Mr. Fortier.
Members of the jury, we will take the afternoon
recess; and of course, during this time, please remember the
cautions always given at recesses, which I know you do remember
from one time to the next. But remember: I've got a duty to
recite this on the record, and you have a duty to obey to avoid
discussion of the case among yourselves and with all other
persons and keep open minds.
And you know, you hear all of these exhibits being
referred to. You won't be required to read every word of every
exhibit. That's not something that'll happen, although the
exhibits are important and will be discussed.
So you're excused now, 20 minutes.
Michael Fortier - Cross
(Jury out at 3:06 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. We'll recess. 20 minutes.
(Recess at 3:07 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:27 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Jury in at 3:28 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please resume the stand again,
Mr. Fortier.
Mr. Tigar, you may continue.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Fortier, I omitted to ask you: While you were in the
VA Hospital, Mr. McVeigh borrowed your Jeep; correct?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And what did he say he was going to do with it?
A. He didn't say exactly. He just asked me if he could borrow
it.
Q. Didn't he say he wanted to go four-wheeling in the Music
Mountains and check the area along Buck-Doe Road?
A. Yes, that is what he did.
Q. That's what he said he was going to do; right?
A. I don't recall if he said at the time that he asked me to
use his (sic) Jeep or not.
Q. But you didn't go with him; correct?
A. Oh, no. I was in the hospital at that time.
Q. So all you know about is what he told you?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, just to be sure, did Mr. McVeigh ever give you a copy
of a book called or publication called The Soldier's Guide?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you ever remember handling such a book, putting your
fingers on it?
A. I don't recall that book.
Q. Do you remember ever handling a publication called Armed
and Dangerous?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that something Mr. McVeigh gave to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And after you handled it, do you know what happened to it?
A. Yes. I gave it back to Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Now, you testified on direct examination, sir, that you had
spent some time with Government lawyers discussing the matters
you were going to present in court; is that correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said you met with Government lawyers about 25
times?
A. Yes. And each one of those times were for either one day
or maybe two days.
Q. So that how many hours total have you spent with Government
lawyers preparing for your testimony?
A. Between 150 and 200 hours.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. When did those preparation sessions begin?
A. When I went to Oklahoma City and started meeting with the
U.S. prosecutors.
Q. You met with Mr. Hartzler?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you met with Mr. Mendeloff?
A. Yes. I believe I met him twice.
Q. Twice. Did you have a disagreement with Mr. Mendeloff?
A. Yes.
Q. Were voices raised?
A. I would say no.
Q. After the disagreement, you did not meet with him anymore?
A. No, sir.
Q. It is correct you did not meet with him anymore after the
disagreement, or that you did?
A. Well, I met him after that disagreement, but I did not meet
with him to speak about the issues.
Q. I see. You did not meet with him to prepare your
testimony?
A. That's correct.
Q. You met with Mr. Goelman?
A. That's correct.
Q. You met with Mr. Mearns?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you meet with any other Government lawyers to prepare
Michael Fortier - Cross
other than those I mentioned?
A. No, sir.
Q. This morning is the first time that you and I have ever
met. Is that correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that you have a
plea agreement. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, as a part of the agreement that you made with the
Government, did you stop using narcotics?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When is the last time that you used narcotics?
A. It was before I traveled to Oklahoma City.
Q. It was before the 17th of May?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I'm going to show you page 7 of the plea agreement
portion of Government's Exhibit 193 in evidence. That is
entitled, "Breach of Agreement," isn't it, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that part of the deal that you have with the
Government?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. It says, "If further investigation discloses that
Mr. Fortier conspired to bomb any federal building" -- and then
it continues on with some other things. It says, ". . . then
Michael Fortier - Cross
the United States will have the right to characterize such
conduct as a substantial breach of this agreement," and so on.
Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And it says, ". . . in which case the obligations of the
United States under this agreement will be void, and the United
States will have the right to prosecute Mr. Fortier for any and
all offenses that can be charged against him in any district or
state." Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. You have not been charged with conspiring to bomb a federal
building, have you, sir?
A. No.
Q. And the United States is aware of everything, all the
facts, that we have talked about today, are they not?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that you got ammonium nitrate from
Mr. McVeigh; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that Mr. McVeigh left explosives in your
house; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that Mr. McVeigh could -- lived in your house
and could use your tools; correct?
A. Yes.
Michael Fortier - Cross
Q. They're aware that Mr. McVeigh could use your phone?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that Mr. McVeigh borrowed your car?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that you went to Oklahoma City with
Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that you wrapped explosives for transport?
A. I was a part to that, yes.
Q. They're aware that you tried to get a storage shed in a
different name than your own?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that you handled guns you thought were
stolen?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware you handled explosives you thought were
stolen?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that you shared money with Mr. McVeigh in
connection with the guns?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that you wanted to form a militia and took
steps to that end?
A. Yes.
Q. They're aware that you had literature that you got from
Michael Fortier - Cross
Mr. McVeigh that you had in your house; correct?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And those are just -- those aren't all of the things we
talked about today but some of them; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. As you sit there today, sir, are you fearful that the
United States will decide to charge you with conspiring to bomb
a federal building?
A. No, sir, I am not.
Q. Now, you testified in direct examination -- excuse me. One
moment.
Let's look at more of the paragraph here, if we may.
It also says that if further investigation discloses
that you refused to answer any questions put to you -- well,
you haven't done that, have you?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. " . . . or makes any false or misleading statements to
investigators or attorneys of the United States or makes any
false or misleading statements or commits any perjury before
any grand jury or court," do you see that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, who do you understand has the right to decide whether
or not you have committed perjury and prosecute you for it?
A. I believe that would be the judge.
Q. Well, is it your understanding, sir, that it's prosecutors
Michael Fortier - Cross
who decide whether to prosecute people?
A. Yes.
Q. You're aware that neither I nor Mr. Woods nor Mr. Nichols
has any power to prosecute you if we should think that you're
committing perjury?
A. I'm aware of that.
Q. Now, in your direct testimony, sir, you discussed the
charges to which you have pleaded guilty and the maximum
potential sentence that you might receive. Do you remember
that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what do you understand to be the maximum potential
sentence that you could receive?
A. 23 years in prison.
Q. Now, when -- do you expect to do 23 years?
A. I think that's a distinct possibility.
Q. Now, Judge Matsch is not the judge who will sentence you;
correct?
A. No, sir.
Q. That is, another judge has been appointed for that purpose;
right?
A. That is right.
Q. And you understand that's a judge in Kansas; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, at the time you are sentenced, which hasn't happened
Michael Fortier - Cross
yet -- correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. -- your lawyer will have the right to present reasons why
the sentence should be less than 23 years; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what the guidelines' sentence is that --
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. What is it?
A. I believe it's 27 to 33 months.
Q. So if you were sentenced in accordance with the sentencing
guidelines, you'd get 27 to 33 months; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, your lawyer and you would have the right to argue for
something less than that; correct?
A. I believe that's true.
Q. And a probation report would be prepared; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In addition to that, the Government will have the right to
present evidence at that sentencing hearing; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is it your understanding that the Government has the
right but not the obligation to say to the judge, should it
choose, that you have rendered substantial cooperation?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware that neither you nor I nor Mr. Nichols nor
Michael Fortier - Cross
Mr. Woods would have any right to ask the judge to consider
substantial cooperation? Is that your understanding?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, looking here at page 5 of your plea agreement, sir, do
you see paragraph 65, Section 23 -- excuse me -- Section
3553(e) motion. What do you understand a Section 3553(e)
motion to be?
A. That if I fulfill my obligations with the United States
prosecution, they under their sole discretion -- they may file
a -- they may ask the judge to reduce my sentence.
Q. Let's read this: "If Mr. Fortier completely fulfills all
of his obligations under this agreement" -- that's the first
part; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. One of your obligations is to tell the truth. Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But the decision as to whether you did or not is going to
be made by the prosecutors -- right -- for these purposes?
A. Yes.
Q. "At the time of sentencing, the United States will advise
the sentencing judge of the full nature, extent, and value of
the cooperation provided by Mr. Fortier. In addition, the
United States will evaluate the information provided by
Mr. Fortier pursuant to the preceding paragraph." Do you see
that, sir?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And then it says, "If the Government determines in its sole
discretion that Mr. Fortier has rendered substantial assistance
in the investigation and prosecution of others involved in
criminal activities" -- "others" includes others than yourself;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. ". . . then it will file a motion pursuant to" -- and it
cites some laws which will so advise the judge.
And then it tells you the judge has the discretion to
determine the sentence. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, we read here that the United States will evaluate the
information provided by Mr. Fortier. Do you read that?
A. Yes.
Q. What does "evaluate" mean to you, sir? You worked at the
True Value hardware store; right?
A. Yes.
Q. What does "evaluate" mean to you?
A. It means to me like they will grade my cooperation.
Q. Pardon me?
A. "Evaluate" means grade or consider how helpful I was.
Q. Okay. And the United States prosecutors are the only ones
under this agreement who have any power to grade or to consider
your cooperation. Correct?
Michael Fortier - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And then the judge will decide based on what they do or do
not say; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When you went into prison, sir, had your youngest child
been born?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you seen your youngest child?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Is it your hope, sir, to be reunited with your children?
A. Yes.
Q. Of all of the things in the world, is being reunited with
your family the most important to you?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And you want that to happen as soon as you can, don't you,
sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And you are a man who would lie just to have a gun, aren't
you, sir?
A. I did do that, yes.
MR. TIGAR: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Mearns, do you have any redirect?
MR. MEARNS: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Michael Fortier - Redirect
Q. Mr. Fortier, earlier this afternoon or before lunch,
Mr. Tigar asked you certain questions about the letter you
received from Mr. McVeigh and the subsequent conversation at
your fence. Do you recall those?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that that letter and the
conversation -- the subsequent conversation you had with him
had to do with the plan to bomb the federal building in
Oklahoma City?
MR. TIGAR: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. You were asked by Mr. Tigar about whether or not
Mr. McVeigh lied to you.
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh tell you the truth, also?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he tell you the truth when he told you that the plan
involved the federal building in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he tell you the truth when he told you that the date of
the bombing was going to be April 19?
A. He told me that it was going to be on the anniversary of
Waco, and that is April 19.
Q. Did he tell you the truth when he told you that the bomb
Michael Fortier - Redirect
would be contained in a large Ryder truck?
A. I believe he did.
Q. Mr. Tigar asked you certain questions about what
Mr. McVeigh told you about the robbery of Bob in Arkansas; do
you recall those?
A. Yes.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh tell you about how that robbery
happened?
A. Mr. McVeigh told me that Mr. Nichols approached Bob's house
one morning. He was dressed in camouflage and he had boots on,
and he was -- he had a shotgun with him. He approached Mr. --
he approached Bob as Bob came out of his house and told him to
go back inside his house. He tied Bob up and then loaded
weapons into Bob's van.
Mr. McVeigh told me that Mr. Nichols got tired so he
untied Bob and had Bob help him; and when they were finished,
he tied Bob back up and then drove the van to where he had
stashed his truck and he unloaded the weapons from the van into
his truck and he drove off leaving the van there.
Q. Mr. Tigar asked you certain questions about a Mr. Steve
Colbern. Do you recall those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Colbern?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh tell you about Mr. Colbern?
Michael Fortier - Redirect
A. That this was an individual that Bob in Arkansas was trying
to hook him up with.
Q. And did Mr. McVeigh ever talk to you about plans to meet
Mr. Colbern?
A. Yes.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh say about that?
A. Mr. McVeigh told me that he was going to meet Mr. Colbern
in the desert. He asked me to hide out in the desert near the
area and to watch his back.
Q. Did that ever happen?
A. No, sir, it did not.
Q. Mr. Tigar asked you certain questions about things or items
that Mr. McVeigh gave to you or that you bought from him. Do
you recall those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever buy any ammonium nitrate?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever steal any explosives for use in the bombing
plan?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever rob a gun dealer to finance the bombing?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever obtain any barrels for use in the bombing
plan?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Michael Fortier - Redirect
Q. When your house -- when you were arrested -- or after the
bombing on April 19, how many 55-gallon barrels -- plastic
barrels did you have in your house?
A. I believe at that time I owned three. They're my trash
cans.
Q. You were asked by Mr. Tigar about whether or not you were
in Junction City in April, 1995. Do you recall those
questions?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you in Oklahoma City on April 16, 1995?
A. I absolutely was not.
Q. Were you at Geary Lake in Kansas on April 18, 1995?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Tigar asked you certain questions about telephone calls
that were placed from your house. Do you recall those
questions?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know at that time that Mr. McVeigh was using a
calling card from your house?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Do you know that now?
A. That has not been proven to me, no.
Q. Did you ever use a calling card number that Mr. McVeigh
gave you?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Michael Fortier - Redirect
Q. Mr. Tigar earlier this afternoon showed you lots of
literature and documents that Mr. McVeigh gave you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have conversations with Mr. McVeigh about the
contents of some of that literature?
A. In general, yes.
Q. Would it be fair to say that Mr. McVeigh was shy about --
MR. TIGAR: Object to leading, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained as to leading.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Were those conversations lengthy, or brief?
A. Some of them were brief and others were lengthy.
Q. Did you ever have to solicit or ask Mr. McVeigh what his
opinion was about the contents of that literature?
A. No. Not at all.
Q. You told us on both direct examination and on
cross-examination about conversations that you had with
Mr. McVeigh about the plan to bomb the federal building in
Oklahoma City; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. During any of those conversations, did Mr. McVeigh ever
mention anyone else by name besides Terry Nichols?
A. No, sir. No one at all.
MR. MEARNS: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar, do you have anything further?
Michael Fortier - Recross
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Just to clarify, sir: You did not hide out in the desert
and watch Mr. McVeigh's back with respect to any meeting with
Mr. Colbern; correct?
A. That is correct. I did not.
Q. But you have no -- you have no personal knowledge as to
whether Mr. McVeigh and Mr. Colbern ever met. Correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you were asked on redirect examination whether you had
stolen any firearms. Correct? Do you remember that?
A. That is correct.
Q. You pleaded guilty to transporting and selling stolen
firearms; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And those were ones you believed to have been stolen from
Mr. Moore; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you also pleaded guilty to actually transporting the
stolen firearms; is that correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And were those the -- again, those firearms you thought had
been stolen from Mr. Moore?
A. Yes.
Q. And with respect to whose names were mentioned --
Michael Fortier - Recross
Mr. McVeigh asked you to drive him, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. He said, "Mike, will you drive me?" Right?
A. Are you speaking about --
Q. When Mr. McVeigh was talking about getting away, he asked
you to drive him, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. And you understood that had to do with the bombing plan,
didn't you, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And he said, "Mike, will you drive me," didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. And then he asked you about whether Jim Rosencrans could do
some driving, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. And you understand that had to do with the plan, didn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And then he asked you to go in the desert and watch his
back for a meeting with Steve Colbern, didn't he?
A. Yes, he did ask me to do that.
Q. Did you understand that had to do with his plan?
A. No, sir. Not at all.
Q. Just you and Rosencrans? Just the first two I asked you
about. Correct?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you. Nothing further.
MR. MEARNS: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Are you going to excuse the witness, or
not?
MR. MEARNS: We agree to excuse the witness, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
MR. TIGAR: Well, so long as it's understood he's
subject to recall should he be needed in the defense call, we
have no objection.
MR. MEARNS: That's acceptable to us, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: -- acceptable. Thank you.
THE COURT: We'll make sure that Mr. Fortier is kept
in the -- within reach.
You may step down now, Mr. Fortier.
Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. We would call Dawn
Hester.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Dawn Hester affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Dawn Dmitrya Hester, H-E-S-T-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MS. WILKINSON: Could I just have a moment, your
Honor?
THE COURT: All right.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Hester. How are you?
A. Fine.
Q. Can you tell the jury where you work.
A. FBI, Houston, Texas.
Q. What do you do for the FBI in Houston?
A. Photographer.
Q. How long have you been a photographer?
A. 20 years.
Q. And were you -- I take it then you were a photographer for
them back in April of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And other than working in Houston as a photographer, did
you ever work at FBI headquarters as a photographer?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do there at headquarters?
A. Photography, forensic.
Q. When you say "forensic," does that mean you sometimes
compared photographs?
A. Yes.
Dawn Hester - Direct
Q. Did you sometimes compare photographs to objects that you
had photographed?
A. Yes.
Q. How many years did you do that at headquarters?
A. About five years.
Q. And back on April 19, 1995, or shortly thereafter, were you
asked to report to Oklahoma City to participate in the
investigation?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you working at the crime scene that is in downtown
Oklahoma City near the Murrah Building on April 22, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall where you were working that morning, the
morning of April 22?
A. We were working in the alley off of Robinson Street.
Q. Do you remember what building was near that alley?
A. We were behind the YMCA -- excuse me.
Q. Do you remember what the weather was like that day?
A. It was cold, windy and rainy.
Q. Why do you remember that?
A. It probably was the ugliest day when I was there, and
you'll never forget a day like that.
Q. When you weren't taking photographs, were you trying to
keep yourself warm?
A. Yes.
Dawn Hester - Direct
Q. But were there times when agents asked you to come out and
photograph evidence they had found?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you asked to take evidence -- take photographs of that
evidence when it was in place before they seized it and took it
into FBI custody?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember photographing a key?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Hold on one second, please.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Do you see Government's Exhibit 699 right there in that
envelope? It should be -- I think I took the first one out for
you.
A. Yes.
Q. Could you take that -- the actual exhibit, 699, out of the
plastic.
Do you recognize that key?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that key have a Q number on it that matches the bag
that it's in?
A. Yes.
Q. What's the Q number?
Dawn Hester - Direct
A. Q2323.
Q. Now, did you take that key and compare it to a photograph
that you had taken?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you look at Government's Exhibit 700. Should be a
photograph that's in your envelope up there.
Is that your photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you take it on April 22?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you take this photograph?
A. The alley behind the YCMA --
Q. The YMCA?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you a little nervous?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's
Exhibit 700.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 700.
MS. WILKINSON: If I could use the ELMO to display it.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Would it be fair to say, Ms. Hester, this is a bunch of
dirt with a key in it?
Dawn Hester - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what you saw on April 22 --
A. Yes.
Q. -- 1995? And was there an agent there who pointed that key
out for you to photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was that?
A. Mark Young.
Q. Did you see him take that key into custody?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he do with it?
A. He put it in a bag.
Q. And have you taken the key, Government's Exhibit 699, and
compared it to this photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it the same key?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers 699, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 699 received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. Hester, I'd like you to step down for a moment so you
can show exactly where this key was when you photographed it.
Keep your voice up.
MR. WOODS: May I step over to observe?
Dawn Hester - Direct
THE COURT: Yes. Surely.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. If you can turn towards the jury and orient yourself.
Here's the Murrah Building. Can you show them where you were
photographing that morning?
A. The alley behind the Y.
Q. And you're pointing up as you go up Robinson to the Murrah
Building?
A. Right.
Q. There is a little dot. You see that dot right there behind
the YMCA?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that indicate where you found the key that day?
A. Yes.
Q. You can take a seat.
Ms. Hester, there should be another photograph that
you took that's up there that is the photograph of the spot
where you found the key. Do you see that in there?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What's the Government's exhibit number on there?
A. 703.
Q. Did you take that that same morning?
A. Yes.
Dawn Hester - Direct
Q. If we showed that to the jury, could you show them where
you found the key?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers 703.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. May be displayed.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Tell the jury what they're looking at in 703, would you
please, Ms. Hester.
A. What you see is a long photo of the alley; and when you
look on to your left, you see a brown area where you got a lot
of dirt and the telephone wires and poles -- that situation.
And right near where the dirt area is where the key was found.
Q. Okay. Let's see if I can get this in focus a little bit
better.
Can you grab that little black pen that's up there on
the top. Take it down to the bottom computer screen, and just
put a circle in the area where you found the key.
Now, that circle got on the cement. Is that where you
meant? We know the pen is a little bit off.
Try an X.
Hold the dot where you want it first, and we'll look
there.
Can you put it over --
A. Okay. In this area.
Dawn Hester - Direct
Q. And are you trying to circle that dirt area there?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, at this time we have a
stipulation on the key, No. 7.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. We have stipulated that
key fit the Ryder truck, if that's the one she's speaking of.
I'm not sure what she's speaking of.
MS. WILKINSON: Yes. It says Government's Exhibit
699, which is the key that was recovered in the location near
the YMCA building in downtown Oklahoma City as described in the
testimony of FBI photographer Dawn Hester. The location of
that key when found is shown in the photograph marked
Government's Exhibit No. 700 and 703. The key fits the
ignition of the Ryder rental truck bearing VIN
1FDNF72J4PVA26077 that was rented from the Ryder dealership at
Elliott's Body Shop on April 17, 1995, in the customer name of
Robert Kling.
MR. WOODS: That's our stipulation, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Then once again, members of
the jury, we accept what has been agreed to as fact.
MS. WILKINSON: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Dawn Hester - Cross
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Hester.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers that was
appointed by the district court in Oklahoma City to help Terry
Nichols after he was charged in this case.
You and I have never met. Is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. What day did you come to Oklahoma City from Houston?
A. On the 20th. April 20.
Q. Thursday?
A. Yes.
Q. There were a number of people that came up from Houston,
including the special agent in charge, Mike Wilson. Is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How many people came up from Houston?
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, could I just object: If
she knows.
THE COURT: Yes --
THE WITNESS: It was about ten.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Okay. Okay. How did you get there?
A. Took one of the Bureau cars up, drove it up.
Q. You didn't fly; is that correct?
Dawn Hester - Cross
A. No, sir.
Q. What was the weather like on the 20th when you arrived in
Oklahoma City?
A. A little cloudy, cool. I had ran into some rain on the way
up; but when I got there, it was a little cloudy and cool.
Q. Could you tell whether or not it had been raining?
Let me back up one question. What time did you get
there on Thursday, the 20th?
A. About 5:00 in the evening.
Q. Could you tell whether or not it had been raining that day?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did you go directly to the crime scene and to the
FBI command post nearby?
A. I reported to the command post.
Q. All right. And at that time, where was the command post?
A. It was in an old building off a side street.
Q. Approximately how far from the Murrah Building?
A. Maybe a block or two.
Q. Now, when did you go to the scene and start your duties;
that is, photographing evidence that agents found?
A. Well, we started the next morning, once I got with my team.
Q. Checked into a hotel the evening of the 20th, I assume?
A. Yes. We had to get the badges and all that for it.
Q. Everybody had a badge that allowed entrance into the crime
scene that was with you. When I say "everybody," I mean people
Dawn Hester - Cross
that were with the FBI. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And so you started work on Friday, the 21st?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately what time?
A. Early in the morning. We have a meeting every morning
before we start work.
Q. And what was the purpose of the meeting?
A. I think all the team leaders would get together with the
coordinator, find out where we supposed to start out and what
we supposed do; and then we all divided, went out and started
working.
Q. Okay. Now, on the 21st, did you happen to search the
parking lot that was across the street from the Murrah
Building?
A. No. I believe we started six blocks out and made a sweep
in.
Q. Oh, so you were starting out and coming in?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether or not there were other teams that were
searching the parking lot that was directly across the street?
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. When you say you were six blocks out, is that east
and then you're working your way in toward the Y and the Murrah
Building?
Dawn Hester - Cross
A. I don't remember.
Q. Okay. Okay. At any rate, at some point, you got to the
YMCA and you were in the alley behind there; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your team: Who all was on the team? How many -- I
don't need the names, but how many people?
A. Probably 10 to 15. We also had some locals with us. Yes.
Q. Okay. And at sometime on the 22d, which is going to be
Saturday, I take it -- is that correct?
A. Uh-huh. Yes.
Q. -- Mr. Young found the key?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that in the morning or afternoon?
A. I'd say midmorning.
Q. Okay. Now, you described to the prosecutor that it was
pretty cold and windy. And was it raining that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were notified to go over and photograph the key
which was on some dirt?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the key looked sort of shiny and new, but there is a
lot of debris and pine bark and vegetation around there. Was
that the condition you saw it in when it was there?
A. Yes.
Q. And you don't know whether or not it had been raining
Dawn Hester - Cross
Wednesday, the 19th, and Thursday, the 20th?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Okay. Friday, the 21st: Do you remember whether or not it
had been raining?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you have an occasion while you were there in Oklahoma
City to photograph items that were recovered in the parking lot
across the street from the Murrah Building?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor. Could we have
a time?
MR. WOODS: During her whole period there.
We've covered the fact she recovered the key.
THE COURT: Yes, you can ask that.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. During your period there -- how long did you stay in
Oklahoma City, Ms. Hester?
A. About two weeks.
Q. During that two-week period, were you always doing the
photography of items that were recovered by agents, or seen by
agents?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have an occasion to photograph items that were
recovered in that parking lot? And just so you're familiar
with what I'm talking about, if you don't mind assisting --
stepping down, do you recall a large parking lot right across
Dawn Hester - Cross
the street from the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's what I'm talking about.
Did you have an occasion to photograph any items that
agents found in that location?
A. No.
Q. Were you the photographer that took the photos of the Ryder
truck that was brought to the scene by the ATF?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see that truck that was brought to the scene
by ATF?
A. I don't remember they did or not.
Q. Do you recall seeing a Ryder truck?
A. Yes.
Q. On the scene?
A. Yes. But I don't know who brought it there.
Q. Okay. Okay. You weren't the one who took photographs of
it?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall approximately what day it was when you first
saw that truck on the scene?
A. The day I was in the alley. 22d.
Q. So that would be Saturday, the 22d? Okay.
Do you recall where it was?
A. The back part of the alley.
Dawn Hester - Cross
Q. Same alley that you're in?
A. Yes.
Q. Behind the Y?
A. Yes.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate
you answering my questions.
THE COURT: Anything else of this witness?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. Hester, you photographed a Ryder truck at the end of
that alley on April 22, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. It didn't have any ATF writing or anything on the side, did
it?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't see anything inside the truck, did you?
A. No.
Q. You have no idea how that Ryder truck got to the end of the
alley, do you?
A. No.
Q. Did you see FBI agents around that truck?
A. No.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions.
MR. WOODS: Well, that just elicits one.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. I'm sorry, Ms. Hester. Why did you photograph that truck
at the alley, the Ryder truck?
A. Well, when I took the long photo of the alley, the truck
was there.
Q. Oh, okay.
A. I was taking a long one of the alley and a short.
Q. So you weren't specifically trying to photograph the truck?
A. No. I was doing the alley.
Q. I see. And you don't know anything about that truck, who
brought it there?
A. No.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you very much.
THE COURT: This witness to be excused?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed, Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Call Jodie Carlson. Mr. Ryan will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Jodie Carlson affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Jodie R. Carlson, C-A-R-L-S-O-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Ms. Carlson, where do you live?
A. I live in Tucson, Arizona.
Q. Now, you're here today to tell us about the rental of a
storage unit in Kingman, Arizona; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Before we do that, let me ask: Are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And what do you do in Tucson, Arizona?
A. I'm the property manager and business manager of Lincoln
Green Apartments, and I'm currently working on my master's
degree.
Q. And where were you -- how long have you been there in
Tucson?
A. I've been in Tucson approximately one-and-a-half years.
Q. Did you live in Kingman, Arizona, in October of 1994?
A. Yes, I did.
Jodie Carlson - Direct
Q. And by whom were you employed?
A. I was employed by Century 21, Barbara Ricca Realty.
Q. Can we just call that Century 21?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of work did you do for Century 21 in Kingman?
A. We leased residential homes. We leased apartments and also
storage units.
Q. Was one of the storage units that you leased known as
Northern Storage?
A. Yes.
Q. And describe Northern Storage for all of us, if you would.
A. Northern Storage was a facility in Kingman located on
Northern Avenue, and the cross street was Powell Avenue. It
had approximately, I would say, about 100 storage units in
different sizes to rent.
Q. Now, would you tell us what your responsibilities were
regarding Northern Storage for Century 21.
A. My responsibilities were to take care of the customer that
came into our office requiring the rental of a storage unit, to
locate the size that they were looking for, set up the
application process, take the fees and assign a unit to them.
Q. Now, I want to ask you specifically about October 4, 1994.
Do you -- did you rent Storage Unit E10 on that day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, do you recall the person who rented the storage?
Jodie Carlson - Direct
A. Yes. Timothy McVeigh.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, I'm pleased to report that I've
relinquished the computer duties to Mr. Johns; so I'm going to
ask him, if he would, to call up Exhibit 169 for the witness.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, can you identify this exhibit?
A. Yes. This is the storage-unit rental application.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, the Government would offer
Exhibit 169.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: 169 received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, if you would, please, tell us the name of the
customer.
A. Tim McVeigh.
Q. And did he give you an address?
A. It states -- which is the information I took was from his
driver's license. He noted on the application P.O. Box 2153,
Fort Riley, Kansas.
Q. Now, you indicated that you took this information off a
driver's license. What was the cause for that?
A. That was normal procedure.
Q. Normal procedure in what sense?
A. To provide documentation to the file that the application
Jodie Carlson - Direct
and the individual renting the storage unit was the actual
individual.
Q. Was this a procedure required by Century 21?
A. Yes. It was required for all applications.
Q. And did you do that with respect to all applications?
A. Yes, I did. I'm a licensed agent for the State of Arizona.
Q. Down at the bottom of the application, it states -- well,
actually, it's more in the middle. It says, "Persons who will
have access to unit." That's a standard question, I gather, in
the application.
A. Yes.
Q. What does it state there? Can you read the writing?
A. It states, "None."
Q. What does that mean?
A. That means no other individuals will have access to the
unit that we are allowed to give authorization to.
Q. Other than Mr. McVeigh?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, do you have any way of enforcing that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. I mean, how does a person secure the storage shed?
A. The actual storage units are vacant when we rent them to
the individuals and they put their own locks on them, whether
they be key locks or combination locks. After the initial
transaction takes place, we do not any longer have any
Jodie Carlson - Direct
communication with that individual.
Q. Now, down at the bottom there it says, "Type of goods being
stored." Could you read what it is stated there for us?
A. It states, "Type of goods being stored: Household." In
parentheses, "(Dishes, bathroom stuff, etc.)."
Q. Now, who provided that information?
A. The applicant, Timothy McVeigh.
Q. Now, is all of the information supplied here on Exhibit
169 -- or the handwriting, rather -- is that the handwriting of
Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, again, with respect to the type of goods being stored
there, what the customer writes in that block: Do you verify
that in any way?
A. No, sir.
Q. Does anyone from Century 21 go and look in the storage unit
to see what's there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Down at the bottom, it says, "No chemicals or flammable
fluids may be stored." Do you or Century 21 have any ability
to verify that, or do you take any steps to verify that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, let me show you what's been marked as --
MR. RYAN: Well, I'm sorry, your Honor. I didn't show
that to the jury. Could I ask --
Jodie Carlson - Direct
It was on there?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. RYAN: Thank you.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Let me show you now what's been marked as Exhibit 170.
Now, can you identify that for us?
A. Yes. This is the rental agreement contract for the storage
unit, E10.
Q. What unit is being rented?
A. It says E10.
Q. On what date?
A. On October 4, 1994.
Q. And again, the name of the person renting the unit?
A. Tim McVeigh.
Q. And how much did the unit rent for each day?
A. It rented for $30 per month with a $5 service fee that day
for a total of $35.
Q. And how long -- when would that $35 expire?
A. That would expire on 11-4-94.
Q. And that's what's reflected there on the face of the
exhibit?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, I move to offer Exhibit 170.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 170.
Jodie Carlson - Direct
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, let me turn your attention to Exhibit 171.
Could you identify that for us, please.
A. Yes. This is a Kansas driver's license with the name
McVeigh, Timothy J.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Exhibit 171.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 171.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, tell us how you obtained a copy of this driver's
license.
A. It was normal and standard procedure for an individual
renting a storage unit to have an application provided to them,
and I would take the driver's license and make a copy of it
while they filled out the application.
I would then verify the individual at the counter with
the application and with the face at the counter.
Q. Was this all conducted on October 4?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, again, let me turn your attention to Exhibit 144. Do
you have that in front of you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you identify that for us, please.
A. This as document stating, "Return check policy, tenants
store goods at their own risk, and insurance is tenant's
Jodie Carlson - Direct
responsibility."
Q. When was that document created?
A. That was created on October 4, 1994.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, the United States would offer
Exhibit 144.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, it appears there are two signatures on that document
and two dates. See that?
A. Yes.
Q. And whose handwriting is that?
A. That was the applicant, Tim McVeigh.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, at this time I would ask that
the Court advise the jury of the stipulation with respect to
Exhibits 169, 171, 170 and 144, that these documents all
contain the handwriting of Timothy McVeigh.
MR. TIGAR: That's right, your Honor. We've agreed to
that.
THE COURT: All right. So agreed, and we accept the
agreement, members of the jury.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. I'll ask that you be displayed Exhibit 173.
Could you tell us what that is, please.
A. This is a receipt that I wrote out when I received payment
Jodie Carlson - Direct
for the storage unit that day.
Q. And is this your handwriting?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Exhibit 173.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. What does this receipt reflect, Ms. Carlson?
A. This receipt reflects the date and the year and the name of
the person that has rented the storage unit, and it also states
the location of the storage unit and the term how long the
individual will be renting that storage unit and the length of
payment -- amount of payment. Excuse me.
Q. I ask that you be shown Exhibit 174.
Can you identify this for us?
A. Yes. This is a receipt that was dated 10-13-94 for a
payment for a storage unit from McVeigh to Northern Storage,
E10, for the dates 11-4 to 12-4 of '94 in the amount of $30.
MR. RYAN: Government would offer Exhibit 174.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, what day was this transaction?
A. This transaction to the best of my knowledge was 10-13 of
'94.
Jodie Carlson - Direct
Q. This was approximately nine days after Mr. McVeigh had come
in and leased the Storage Unit E10. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, how was this payment made as according to the receipt?
A. This payment was made in cash.
Q. And when did this payment that was made nine days after the
first payment extend the lease for?
A. 12-4 of '94.
Q. I ask that you be shown Exhibit 175. Can you identify that
for us, please.
A. Yes. This is another receipt dated 10-27 of '94 for a
storage unit rented by McVeigh, Northern Storage, Storage Unit
No. E10, for the term of 12-4 to 2-5 of '95 in the amount paid
in cash of $60.
MR. RYAN: Government offers Exhibit 175.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, this payment by Mr. McVeigh occurred approximately 23
days after he initially rented the lease (sic). Is that
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And this extended the lease through what date?
A. 2-5 of '95.
Q. Again, was this cash?
Jodie Carlson - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. I show you what's been marked as Exhibit 176. Can you
identify this exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. This is Northern Storage.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, this has already been offered
and admitted into evidence, your Honor, so I just ask it be
published.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Ask you show us -- you have a pen there on a -- see that?
Put it under the table there. Can you show the jury where --
excuse me -- Storage Shed E10 is located.
Thank you.
Let me ask that you be shown Exhibit 177, which is
also in evidence. If you'll hit the side of the pen there, it
will erase the marks you just made.
And would you place an X where Storage Unit E10 is
located.
What is the size of that unit?
A. It's a 6-by-15.
Q. I want to ask that you be shown Exhibit 145, which is not
in evidence.
Can you identify this for us, please.
Jodie Carlson - Direct
A. Yes. This is the ledger card that was kept in our office
documenting the transactions for individual clients.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Exhibit 145.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, ma'am.
A. Hi.
Q. I'm Michael Tigar, one of the lawyers appointed to help
Terry Nichols.
There is a change of address on this form here. Do
you know how that came to be?
A. No, sir.
Q. But this is a document kept in the regular course of your
business; that is, you got one of those for every one of these
locker transactions?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 145 is received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Ms. Carlson, according to Government's Exhibit 145, when
was the -- when was it noticed that the Storage Shed E10 was
vacated?
Jodie Carlson - Direct
A. It was vacated on 2-13 of '95.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, ma'am.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar, do you have any questions?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. I was just
getting exhibits.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon again, ma'am.
Were you working there at the real estate office on
the 13th when this whole transaction ended?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you left the company by then?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you're down in Tucson now?
A. Correct.
Q. And getting a master's in what?
A. Education specializing in academic counseling.
Q. At ASU?
A. University of Phoenix.
Q. University of Phoenix.
Now, the -- so you would not know what investigations
were conducted by law enforcement with respect to the shed; is
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Now, you said that somebody came in and rented the
Jodie Carlson - Cross
shed. Do you remember what that person looked like?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember what time of day it was?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you looked back to try to figure out whether it was
morning or afternoon? I know it's a long time ago.
A. No, sir.
Q. The 4th of October was a regular weekday; right? A
workday?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, the storage rental, you said, was $30 a month. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. So with the three payments we have here, somebody would
have the right to occupy it until the 2d of February; correct?
A. Till the 5th of February.
Q. Excuse me. Till the 5th of February. The 5th day of the
second month?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you the person who personally took the payments in
each one of these cases?
A. No, sir.
Q. That was done by somebody else in the office who made out a
standard receipt; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. But you are certain that you would not have rented the unit
Jodie Carlson - Cross
to someone who didn't look anything at all like the picture on
their driver's license; right?
A. Could you restate the question, please.
Q. Well, whenever somebody came in to rent, you looked at the
driver's license to make sure you had the right person;
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And -- and that's one of the ways that you verified that
the -- what the transaction was; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, with respect -- if I could show here what's been
received in evidence as Government's Exhibit 177, a photograph,
we see there in the center E10. And that's the unit we're
talking about. Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, if we look here, that's the locking mechanism on the
door; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how many locks is that designed to take?
A. Two.
Q. Two. And those are the two little marks that we have --
you can see those two little things hanging down there?
A. Yes.
Q. And the locks are to be supplied by the customer. Is that
correct?
Jodie Carlson - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever observe anyone in or around that storage unit
after you rented it until the time you left the company?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was your office at some distance away from where the
storage sheds were located?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much. I have no further
questions.
THE COURT: Anything else of this witness?
MR. RYAN: Just one question, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Ms. Carlson, was it permissible with Century 21 for a
customer to have one keyed lock and one combination lock on the
storage units?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: Thank you. That's all, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. One -- I'm sorry. I
forgot to ask.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I want to show you what's been marked -- received, rather,
as Government's Exhibit 145, if I may. Do you see the top here
Jodie Carlson - Recross
where there is a change of address; that is to say, the
renter -- first was typed in "McVeigh, Tim; P.O. Box 2133; Fort
Riley, Kansas," and then a ZIP Code. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then has written "1711 Stockton Hill, No. 206." Do you
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, that is not your writing, is it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Is it -- was it the regular course of business of your
company at that time to make changes of address when the
customer would report that the address had changed?
A. Yes.
Q. And the purpose of that was the -- was the purpose of that
so that you could notify the customer, should that become
necessary?
A. Yes.
Q. So are you satisfied as you sit there today that that
notation was made in the regular course of your business by
someone whose responsibility it was to keep this card
corrected?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. No further
questions.
MR. RYAN: None, your Honor; and she may be excused.
THE COURT: All right. Agree to excuse?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Ms. Carlson, you may step
down. You're excused.
Next?
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we would call Lou Hupp.
Mr. Mearns will question.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Hupp.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Louis Hupp affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Louis Gale Hupp. The last
name is spelled H-U-P-P.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Hupp, how are you employed?
A. I'm employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in
Washington, D.C., in the Latent Fingerprint department.
Q. How long have you been working for the FBI?
A. More than 32 years.
Q. Have you worked continuously for the FBI for 32 years?
Louis Hupp - Direct
A. With the exception of two years off for military service in
'66 through '68, yes.
Q. What is your specialty?
A. I'm employed as a fingerprint specialist in the Latent
Fingerprint section.
Q. How long have you been in that position and in that
section?
A. I've been employed in the latent print section since August
of 1975.
Q. Tell us what are your duties as a fingerprint specialist in
the Latent Fingerprint section?
A. I receive items of evidence from various law enforcement
officials, both state and federal, for the purpose of examining
for the presence of latent prints.
Q. And is it part of your responsibility to also attempt to
identify latent fingerprints?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you have any additional duties or responsibilities with
the FBI?
A. I also instruct law enforcement officials throughout the
United States and have on occasion lectured in foreign
countries in the art of detecting fingerprints, preserving them
and preparing for courtroom testimony.
Q. And prior to today, how many times have you testified about
your fingerprint examination work?
Louis Hupp - Direct
A. It would be more than 80.
Q. That is both state and Federal Court?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, as a fingerprint specialist, are you familiar with the
term "inked fingerprint"?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Tell us what an inked fingerprint is.
A. An inked fingerprint is the reproduction of the friction
ridges on the underside of the fingers by placing those
friction ridges in contact with something such as printer's ink
on a piece of metal and then rolling the print onto that and
placing it on a card such as a stated fingerprint card which
has a contrasting background.
Q. So it's a deliberate recording of the fingerprint?
A. That is correct.
Q. Are you also familiar with the term "latent fingerprint"?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Can you tell us what is the difference about a latent
fingerprint in contrast to an inked fingerprint?
A. Well, these friction ridges I spoke of on the underside of
the fingers are covered with, or lined with a series of sweat
pores which constantly exude some sort of perspiration; and
this perspiration usually covers these ridges. On other
occasions, if you would happen to touch a portion of your body,
you would pick up foreign oils or something of that nature.
Louis Hupp - Direct
When this -- these ridges come in contact with
something such as this piece of wood, those tracings or
outlines are usually transferred to that but remain invisible
to the naked eye.
Q. If they're generally invisible, how do you examine them as
a latent or as a latent fingerprint examiner?
A. We process them with various chemicals and powders in order
to make them visible to the naked eye.
Q. How do you go about identifying whose finger made a latent
fingerprint?
A. Well, these -- we look for these points of identity which
are present as part of these friction ridges, and we look for
these points of identity to lie in the same relative position
in two fingerprint impressions; and once you've done that, then
we've effected an identification.
Q. When you say "points of identity," is there also a phrase
in your expertise called a "point of comparison"?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Are those essentially the same things?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. How many different types of points of comparison or points
of identity are there?
A. There are basically four. There are ridges that suddenly
begin or end, which we call an end of a ridge. There is a
ridge which starts as one ridge, splits or divides to form two.
Louis Hupp - Direct
There is another one that starts as a single ridge, splits or
divides to form two only to rejoin again and form one ridge.
We call this an "enclosure." And the last is what I call a
"dot" or "ridge" with no direction.
Q. How many points of comparison or points of identity do you
need to make a positive fingerprint identification?
A. Well, the FBI has no set standard. However, I have never
identified a print with less than seven points as of today.
Now, that's not to say that I might not on a -- in
some future date identify less; but as of today, seven would be
the bottom.
Q. How many fingerprint specialists such as yourself review
each latent fingerprint to make an identification?
A. Once an identification has been effected in the latent
print section, a minimum of two people must concur before that
identification is released.
Q. When you examine an object or a document for the
possibility of a latent fingerprint and you identify a latent
fingerprint, is there any way to tell when that fingerprint was
left on the document or the object.
A. No, there is not.
Q. How do you determine what process to use to try to identify
a latent fingerprint?
A. Basically, when I receive items of evidence, I break them
into two basic groups, that being either a porous-type evidence
Louis Hupp - Direct
or a nonporous.
Q. What do you mean by "a porous-type evidence"?
A. "Porous" would be something such as this folder or a piece
of paper or cloth, something that the latent print is literally
absorbed into the surface of.
Q. What types of chemical processes do you use with a porous
item such as a folder or a document?
A. Well, there are several, but we use them in strict
sequential order. And those would be initially I would just
visually examine the item for the presence of latent prints.
Then I would certainly examine it with the presence of -- in
the presence of an alternate light source or a laser to look
for inherent fluorescence. Then I would process this with a
chemical called DFO, place it into a dry heat situation, and
then examine it in the presence of an alternate light source or
laser.
The next chemical is what we call a ninhydrin. That
reacts with humidity, and they would develop then. And the
last but not least would be physical developer or silver
nitrate.
Q. Do any of the processes you just described discolor
documents or porous items?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Which ones do that?
A. On an occasion, DFO will discolor an item. Certainly
Louis Hupp - Direct
ninhydrin will and physical developer or silver nitrate will
cause great distortion either in a black, gray, or a dark brown
color.
Q. The other processes that turn it a dark gray or a black:
What color do they turn the document?
A. Generally it's a reddish-purple color.
Q. Do any of the processes, the chemical processes you just
described, destroy or partially destroy a document?
A. Certainly will on occasion render a document, if there is
writing or something on it, to where you cannot read it.
Silver nitrate will destroy an object over a period of time.
Q. When you say "an object," you mean a document?
A. A document, yes.
Q. You said there were two types of items. One was porous,
which you've just described.
A. Yes.
Q. You also said the nonporous.
A. Yes.
Q. What is a nonporous item?
A. Nonporous would be something such as the -- this piece of
wood or a countertop or a piece of glass.
Q. And what processes do you use to develop a latent
fingerprint, to identify a latent fingerprint on a nonporous
item?
A. First would be, of course, visual examination to see if I
Louis Hupp - Direct
can see the latent on the item itself. Secondly, I would again
go to the laser or alternate source and attempt to see any
inherent fluorescence. Then I would process it with
cyanoacrylate or what many people refer to as Super Glue.
After that, I would again examine it visually. Then I might
apply a chemical-dye stain which would react with the
cyanoacrylate. Then I would place it under an alternate light
source or a laser again, because this would fluoresce. And
last but not least, I would certainly powder it with
appropriate colored powder.
Q. And by "powder," that's what we see on television? We see
detectives using fingerprint powder?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you ever use the term "fragile" with respect to latent
fingerprints?
A. Yes.
Q. What does the term "fragile" mean in your field?
A. In my field, we would consider a latent which would appear
or would be presented on a porous piece of -- or nonporous
piece of evidence, one that lies on the surface. They're very
easily removed by simply brushing or touching, and they're
easily rem