The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Monday, November 17, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 77)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:46 a.m., on the 17th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, REID NEUREITER, and JANE
TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308,
Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:46 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Good morning.
ALL: Good morning.
THE COURT: Are we ready to resume with Agent West?
MR. MACKEY: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Jury in at 8:47 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
JURY: Good morning.
THE COURT: You will recall when we recessed Friday
afternoon, we were hearing testimony from FBI Agent William
West concerning a search of Mr. Nichols' residence. We'll
continue with his testimony now.
If you'll resume the stand, please, Agent West.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
(William West was recalled to the stand.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Agent West.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. We've never met; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. I'm one of the lawyers that was appointed by the district
court in Oklahoma City to help Terry Nichols in this case.
You've testified earlier in the case on finding some pamphlets
and items in the storage room, and you were questioned by
Mr. Tigar; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. When we broke Friday, you had testified about finding some
weapons in the storage area and also in the garage; is that
correct?
A. That's also correct.
Q. Okay. Now, you're based in Kansas City, or you were at
that time, in April '95?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you still there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you go to the Herington area?
A. On --
William West - Cross
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor. I believe this
is outside the scope of the direct.
THE COURT: Well --
MR. WOODS: He's taking part in a search; we're going
to get to the basics of the search.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS: I first got to the Herington area on the
21st of April.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. That's Friday?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were you part of the S.W.A.T. team or the S.O.G. team?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS: I'm part of the S.O.G. team.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. For the jury, would you tell them what that is.
A. That's a team that conducts primarily surveillances.
Q. Were you the pilot?
A. I am a pilot, but I was not acting as a pilot then.
Q. There was a plane that went from Kansas City to Herington,
wasn't there?
A. That's correct.
Q. And what part did you play on Friday, the -- April the
21st, prior to taking part in the search the next day on the
William West - Cross
22d?
A. What part did I play? I mean I was part of the
surveillance.
Q. What did you do on Friday, the 21st?
A. We drove to the Herington area, and I participated in what
we were going to conduct as surveillance.
Q. And did you notice Terry Nichols go to the Herington police
station, the Department of Public Safety, it's called?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. So you were aware that the Mr. Nichols was interviewed by
the FBI on Friday, the 21st?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Now, on Saturday, the 22d, you took part in a search of his
house?
A. That's correct.
Q. What time did you start your activities relating to the
search such as a briefing or whatever you did prior to
executing the search?
A. There was a briefing in the afternoon of the 22d.
Q. What did you do that morning, the -- Saturday, the 22d?
A. That morning I helped participate in just crowd control and
keeping people away from the residence.
Q. There on 2nd Street?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, what time did the briefing start?
William West - Cross
A. I'm not sure. It was -- I just recall it was in the
afternoon sometime.
Q. Where was the briefing held?
A. At the -- what I call the police station, the department of
safety.
Q. Okay. And who held the briefing, who was in charge?
A. I'm not sure who was in charge. I know an official, a
legal adviser gave the briefing, a lawyer. And I'm not sure
what office he was from.
Q. Okay. You had mentioned earlier that you thought the legal
adviser from Denver was there, but I'm sure that was just an
oversight; is that correct?
A. That's correct. I'm not sure if he was from Denver. But
it was from -- I'm not sure where he was from.
Q. Okay. And did you read the warrant?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And on the front of the warrant, it shows that Scott
Crabtree was the affiant; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Would you tell the jury what the affiant is.
A. He just swears to the facts alleged in the warrant, that
they're true and correct.
Q. Okay. Now, was Scott Crabtree present there in the
briefing?
A. I'm not sure.
William West - Cross
Q. You know who Scott Crabtree is, don't you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. He's part of the Kansas City division, isn't he?
A. That's correct.
Q. And he's in Salina, Kansas?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that's a resident agency out of Kansas City?
A. That's correct.
Q. But you don't recall whether or not he was there?
A. No. A lot of people attended the meeting, and I'm not sure
who all they were.
Q. Well, did anybody at the meeting tell you what Terry
Nichols had told them that day on Friday, April 21?
A. I don't recall that. I just recall reading the warrant and
discussing the types of things we were looking for and, you
know, to -- things of that nature.
Q. All right. Do you recall who interviewed Mr. Nichols? Do
you know who did that?
A. I know who did it, but I don't, you know -- I didn't
participate.
Q. I know you didn't participate. You know Agent Steve Smith,
didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You know Agent John Foley?
A. Yes.
William West - Cross
Q. And you know Agent Jablonski?
A. Yes.
Q. And Scott Crabtree?
A. That's correct.
Q. And those four interviewed Terry Nichols; is that correct?
A. I understand that's correct. Yes.
Q. Now, before you went into the house, did anybody show you
the map, the diagram of the house and the diagram of the
location of the weapons and ammunition that Mr. Nichols had
drawn for the agents?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you seen that exhibit that day?
A. I saw that exhibit this last week.
Q. Okay. And by the way, did you mark on Exhibit No. 2086
where you found the weapons?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And have you compared those two? By "those two," I
mean the exhibit that Mr. Nichols marked and the exhibit where
the weapons and ammunition was.
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, but you have looked at it?
A. Have looked at what, sir?
Q. The exhibit where Mr. Nichols drew where his weapons and
ammunition was.
A. Yes, I looked at that last week.
William West - Cross
Q. Was it inaccurate?
A. It looked fairly accurate, sir.
Q. All right. And speaking of the ammunition that you showed
the jury last week, it was in cellophane bags or these little
Ziploc small bags; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you've told the jury you've been to gun shows?
A. I've been to one or two gun shows, yes.
Q. You've seen ammunition sold at gun shows in those small
Ziploc bags, have you not?
A. I can't say that I have. But it would be realistic that
they would be sold, but I can't say that I saw any.
Q. All right. Thank you. Thank you.
All right. So you're at a briefing, and I assume you
divide up into teams; is that correct?
A. Before we went into the house, that's correct.
Q. What time did you enter the house?
A. Approximately 8:00 p.m.
Q. Do you know what time the search of the house actually
began?
A. No, I don't. We all -- the teams went in about 8:00. I'm
not sure when team -- people before us went in, no.
Q. Your team went in at 8:00; is that correct?
A. Approximately, yes, sir.
Q. Are you aware that teams went in at 4:00?
William West - Cross
A. I know that -- I'm not aware of the time.
Q. And you're aware that the time the warrant was obtained --
at 11:20 that morning, on the 22d?
A. I didn't know that. I knew we obtained a warrant prior to
going in the house. I wasn't aware of the time.
Q. And the warrant that you looked at and read, did it have
the judge's signature and the time that he signed it there?
A. I can't recall.
Q. Okay. Now, who was on your team?
A. Bob Meridith and Cullen Scott.
Q. The three of you were a team; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And would you tell the jury just briefly what -- why you
divide into a team and what your duties are when you're a small
team like that and you're searching a room.
A. We just go to a team to ensure that every place in the
house is covered; and we -- since we know what we're looking
for -- in this case we seized several weapons -- we could
process them or look at -- do it more efficiently with more
than one person.
Q. One person keeps the evidence recovery log, I assume; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And one person seizes the item and puts a tag on it or
initials it; is that correct?
William West - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And the other's assisting the seizure?
A. That's correct.
Q. And would you explain briefly to the jury how you did that
with the weapons in the storage area. You mentioned that there
are three main areas where weapons were found. Let's start
with the storage area.
A. Okay. Concerning the weapons?
Q. Yes, sir. Just briefly for the jury how a team of three
would operate, how you seized the weapon, labeled it, and how
the other agent kept the evidence recovery log.
A. Well, I've got to say that for the weapons, we also had a
photographer to take pictures.
Q. Right.
A. We would take, say, a weapon in a corner, say from the
blanket area. The weapons that were enclosed in a blanket.
One agent would take the weapon. We all had gloves on so we
wouldn't disturb any prints or that type of evidence. One
agent would pick it up, clear it, make sure that no rounds were
in the chamber. We would -- he might read off what -- from the
gun the serial number or descriptive data so we could fill
out -- another agent -- in this case myself, I filled out an
evidence tag. The tag was then placed near the gun, photograph
was taken.
Q. Were both sides of the weapon photographed, like a hand,
William West - Cross
photograph one side and then the other side so that both sides
of the stock are showing?
A. No. Just -- as I recall, we just took one photograph at
that time of the weapon.
Q. All right.
A. With the card, with the evidence tag with the weapon. We
recorded it on a log. Then the agents would initial the
evidence tag and the weapon was then taken to a -- to Lou Hupp,
a fingerprint examiner.
Q. Did he conduct the fingerprint examinations there on the
premises that you observed?
A. No. He did not conduct fingerprint examinations.
Q. Okay. But they were just turned over to his custody?
A. They were turned over to his custody; that's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that you would put the serial
number down on the evidence tag; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And is it true that each weapon has a different serial
number?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's put on there by the manufacturer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would you tell the jury what the purpose of that is,
why each gun has a separate serial number.
A. Well, it's just to identify that particular weapon.
William West - Cross
Q. All right. And are you aware -- wasn't there an ATF agent
with you also, Tony DeNardi?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you aware that ATF keeps records of transfers from the
manufacturer to the seller when they distribute the weapons out
of the manufacturer?
A. I knew they kept weapons and he was the expert concerning
that; so, no, I don't know exactly how it's done.
Q. You've seen an ATF form before, haven't you, that shows the
tracking of a weapon from the manufacturer to a retail dealer
to a seller?
A. I've seen reports in a file, but I don't know that I've
seen the actual document.
Q. Well, you know what ATF jurisdiction is, don't you?
A. Primarily, yes.
Q. They're responsible for firearms registration, aren't they?
A. That's correct.
Q. So serial number is written down on the evidence tag; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, you write down a case number, don't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And the case number comes out of the office of
origin; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
William West - Cross
Q. And would you explain to the jury what an office of origin
is.
A. That's just the office that is primarily responsible for
the case, to make sure it's continued to its logical
conclusion.
Q. All right. What office was the office of origin on this
case?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. Okay. And why is a case number assigned to an
investigation?
A. Just so the records will -- concerning that particular case
will reach the proper file.
Q. Each investigation has a separate case number; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. So that in a large investigation that takes place all over
the nation, the same case number is assigned to every lead; if
somebody makes an interview, there's a case number assigned to
that, and it goes back to Oklahoma City; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it goes into one central file so that the agents can
keep up with what's going on in one file; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it's very important that this -- the case number be
correctly recorded on the interviews and on the evidence; is
William West - Cross
that correct?
A. Yes, sir, so it will get in the proper file.
Q. Right. Now, isn't it true that every single piece of
evidence that was taken out of Mr. Nichols' home was
misidentified by the case number?
A. I don't know that to be true.
Q. You know that all those weapons are misidentified, don't
you?
A. No, I don't.
Q. What's the case number on this case?
A. 174A-OC-56120.
Q. Okay.
Q. Read the case number that you put on this weapon.
A. 174A-KC-52160.
Q. It's not the same, is it?
A. No.
Q. In fact, every one of these weapons are mislabeled with the
case number, aren't they?
A. You mean because of the Kansas City office?
Q. No, sir, because of the number put on these tags.
A. I guess so.
Q. You want to look at each one of these tags?
A. I will take your word for it.
Q. Whatever this is, it was removed from the house, every
single item that was removed from the house has the wrong case
William West - Cross
number on it, doesn't it?
A. I don't know that to be true.
Q. You read the 302's on this case, haven't you?
A. Yes, I've read some.
Q. All right. Let's start with the first location. You
mentioned that the first location was in a corner, sort of
wrapped in blankets -- is that correct -- in the storage area?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you testified that there were seven rifles found in
that area that were wrapped up in blankets?
A. That's correct.
Q. And through the prosecutor, you introduced four of the
seven.
A. That's correct.
Q. That are in this group of 18 here.
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. The other three are where?
A. The other three are maintained with the evidence. Back at,
I guess, the Oklahoma command post, Oklahoma City command post.
Q. In some file; right?
A. In this file.
Q. If they've corrected the file number.
Is that correct?
A. Under the proper file number, yes.
Q. Okay. Now, the second area you testified about was the
William West - Cross
closet area, that there were nine weapons found in the closet
area?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And through the prosecutor, you introduced five of
those, and those five are in this platform over here; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, when you made out your evidence tag, did you
write on that evidence tag whether or not the weapons had a
price sticker on them?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Okay. And you didn't photograph both sides of the stock?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. All right. So we've got five of the nine. Where are the
other four?
A. They're with the other evidence.
Q. And do you know where that is?
A. Yes, Denver. I said Oklahoma City. I will correct myself,
Denver command post.
Q. All right. In fact, you've seen them there, haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And they've been handled a number of times, haven't they?
A. Of course.
Q. All right. Then the third area that you found weapons were
over the bathroom, in the garage area, sort of the eaves area
William West - Cross
above the -- between the roof and the -- wherever the roof of
the bath is?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you found nine?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you brought all nine of those in; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And they're there on that platform?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And you found some ammunition, which we've discussed
was in little plastic Ziploc Baggies?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You recall the total number of weapons that were found in
the house?
A. Of the rooms that I searched, which was just the storage
room and the garage area, there were 29.
Q. Okay.
THE COURT: I take it we're talking about firearms?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, in that storage area, you also have already testified
about finding this Quaker State box that had some pamphlets in
it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Certainly wasn't up in his living room on a dining room
William West - Cross
table or anything; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, in the storage area, didn't you find an answering
machine for a telephone?
A. I believe an answering machine was found in one of the
boxes, yes, sir.
Q. And you took the tape out of it?
A. I can't remember that, sir.
Q. Okay. Do you -- do you have the recovery log in front of
you, evidence recovery log?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you recall whether or not the tape was logged in as an
item seized?
A. I don't remember a tape, but I can't tell you, sir.
Q. Okay. Okay. But your team of three was searching that
storage area; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. You noticed that there was no Caller ID on the
telephones in Mr. Nichols' house, didn't you?
A. I didn't notice that, sir.
Q. Did you look at the phone?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you confine your activities solely to the storage area,
went in that room and went out of it and didn't look in any
other part of the house?
William West - Cross
A. Except for the garage, yes, sir.
Q. Just those two areas: The garage and the storage room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Did you ever hear that Mr. Nichols had Caller ID on
his phone from the other agents that were making the search
there in his presence?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor, to what he
heard.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WOODS: Okay.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. You said that you brought with you today the exhibit -- the
diagram of the house where you've marked where the locations
were; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. Of the three areas where we found the long guns.
Q. Yes. All right.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may I have that exhibit so
that we can offer that into evidence?
THE COURT: Yes.
You have it here?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. WOODS: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, sir.
THE WITNESS: Did you want the other two pages?
William West - Cross
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Would you just mention for the record how you diagramed
where the weapons were; what kind of markings did you put on
there?
A. I put a blue X on the three areas where -- three primary
areas where the long weapons, rifles and shotguns, were
located.
Q. All right. Thank you.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may it please the Court, I'll
have these marked and then offer them into evidence after the
break.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WOODS: And right now, I have no further
questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Well, maybe we ought to mark it now so we
know what it is on the record at least.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. I mean, if I can get my
last exhibit number and I will make it subsequent to that.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may I just take a look at
that?
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
We have no objection to the introduction of 1646, your
Honor.
William West - Cross
THE COURT: Do we have the identification?
MR. WOODS: For the record, your Honor, it will be
D1646, and it is a two-page exhibit which is also Government's
Exhibit 2086.
MS. WILKINSON: It has three Xs that Mr. West put on
to show where he recovered the guns that he has identified.
THE COURT: Well, I'm confused. Is this a
duplication?
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, it's Government's Exhibit
2086, which is a diagram of the house that the Government had
done; and it's got a couple of blue Xs that Agent West placed
on it to show the placement of the weapons and where he found
them.
THE COURT: So that's the difference between the two
documents?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Understood now.
So it's received now.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent West, Mr. Woods asked you about the file number that
was used as part of the marking system on these firearms. Is
that an internal system that you use at the FBI?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Do you have any doubt in your mind that the firearms you
William West - Redirect
identified for the jury are the firearms that you found in
Mr. Nichols' house?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. You also were asked about an answering machine. Was that
answering machine hooked up to Mr. Nichols' phone or was it in
a cardboard box?
A. This was in a cardboard box with a lot of other items.
Q. And finally, you were asked about your participation in
this investigation on the day before the search -- that's
Friday, April 21. You were in Herington that day; is that
right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you were conducting surveillance?
A. That's correct.
Q. Where were you in Herington this afternoon when you were
conducting surveillance?
A. You mean on the streets?
Q. Yes. How far were you from Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Approximately -- it would just be an estimate -- six or
seven blocks.
Q. Did you see him in his car leaving his house that
afternoon?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did he go straight to the police department?
A. No, he didn't.
William West - Redirect
Q. Where did he go?
A. He went to a Surplus City store parking lot, and went into
that parking lot for a few minutes.
Q. Did he go into the store?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Did he get back into his car?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. After that, he turned around and then went to the police
department.
Q. And on his way back to the police department, did he pass
his street that his house is on?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Will you explain to the jury, then, generally the route
that he took. If he went to the surplus store before he went
to the police department, was he backtracking before he went
back to the police department?
A. You mean was he --
Q. In other words --
A. -- when he went to the Surplus City?
Q. Was that on the way if you were driving a direct route?
A. No, ma'am, it would not be on the way to the police
department. So he went to the Surplus City area first, then
turned around, went back by the route he would take to go to
his house and then went on to the police station.
MS. WILKINSON: No other questions, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Is he -- is Agent West going
to be back?
MS. WILKINSON: For his sake, I hope not, your Honor.
We'll dismiss him. We do want to clarify the record on some of
the firearms. I'm not sure I offered each one, and if I could
just for the record make that clear.
MR. WOODS: It was a little unclear when I read the
transcript.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, one I don't think I
offered was Government's Exhibit 1800, and we would offer that
at this time.
THE COURT: There's no objection, I take it.
MR. WOODS: I would like to know what 1800 is, what
particular weapon.
THE COURT: Okay.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I don't have them in
numerical order. Perhaps I can do this --
MR. WOODS: If you can describe into the record what
it is as to the make and caliber, serial number.
MS. WILKINSON: Sure, you bet. Government's Exhibit
1800 is the gas gun with the rather large barrel.
Do you have any objection?
MR. WOODS: As long as it's identified for the record.
THE COURT: All right. I don't believe we had serial
numbers coming in.
MS. WILKINSON: No, we didn't. Well, Agent West would
just say there was a serial number on there, but we did mark as
Government's Exhibit 1800, and he gave a description as Lake
Erie Chemical Company 37 millimeter gas gun.
MR. WOODS: That's accurate enough.
THE COURT: It's received.
MS. WILKINSON: The other one, your Honor, is
Government's Exhibit 1833, which we introduced as a E.A.
Company, Model J-15, .223 caliber with a serial number and a
Tasco scope. And when I offered it, I gave the wrong number,
so I would like to move it in as 1833 and not as 1793 which is
I think what I said for the record.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 1833 is received, then, in substitution
for the previously announced number.
MS. WILKINSON: And Agent West can be dismissed.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You can step down. You're excused.
Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. We would call FBI Agent
William Nellis.
THE COURT: All right.
(G. William Nellis affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: G. William Nellis, N-E-L-L-I-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I proceed, your Honor?
THE COURT: Oh, yes, please.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, sir.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Mr. Nellis, good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. Would you tell the jury where you work, sir.
A. I'm a special agent of the FBI.
Q. Where are you stationed?
A. Omaha division.
Q. How long have you been with the FBI?
A. 13 years.
Q. Where have you been stationed during all those 13 years?
A. For one-and-a-half years at the Washington headquarters,
two years at the Washington field office, and nine-and-a-half
years in the Omaha division.
Q. What is your educational background?
A. I have a bachelor of science in criminal justice from the
G. William Nellis - Direct
University of Scranton, in Scranton, Pennsylvania.
Q. Let me direct your attention now to April 22, 1995. Did
you and colleagues of yours from the FBI execute a search
warrant at the home of Terry Nichols in the Herington, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you personally recover some items during that
search?
A. Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach? There's a
bulky item I'd like to --
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Nellis, I've handed you an exhibit that's been marked
for identification as Government Exhibit 1808 -- I'm sorry,
1809, and inside of it is 1808. Do you recognize those
exhibits?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Let's start with the case that you've got in front of you.
Can you identify what that is, please.
A. This is a Army rifle case.
Q. And does it bear a tag that you filled out during the
search?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And did you initial that tag?
A. Yes, I did.
G. William Nellis - Direct
Q. Now, when you found that item during the search, where was
it?
A. It was on a shelf under the steps in the basement of
Mr. Nichols' house.
Q. And was there anything inside of it, when you found it?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that Government Exhibit 1808?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Take a look inside and open it up.
Is that an item that you found inside the case during
the search?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is that, for the record, please.
A. It's as Uzi sub-machine gun.
Q. Is that a real Uzi or a replica?
A. It's a replica.
Q. When you found it, at the time did you know it was a
replica?
A. No, sir.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, the Government offers 1808
and 1809.
MR. WOODS: Subject to our prior discussions, no
objection.
THE COURT: All right. They're received.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
G. William Nellis - Direct
Q. Now that they're in evidence, would you hold up the item
and show the jury.
And at the time, you thought that was a real gun, did
you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it has markings like a real gun?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. In addition to recovering those items, did you recover
items in the storage area in the south side of the garage?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If you would reach into your folder and look for Government
Exhibit 1709. Do you have that there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is that one of the items that you found during the
search?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For the record, please, what is it?
A. It's a video cassette, Scotts' video cassette titled "Mike
Tyson" and "Waco, The Big Lie."
Q. And where did you find it?
A. In a milk crate in that storage area of the garage.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 1709, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 1709 received.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
G. William Nellis - Direct
Q. Agent Nellis, would you hold up the video and show the jury
where you saw that title.
A. On the spine of the tape.
Q. Would you read what it says, again, please.
A. "Waco, The Big Lie," and "Mike Tyson."
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, there's a stipulation that
I'd like to have published to the jury at this point that the
handwriting on that label, on the video cassette, was written
by Mr. McVeigh.
MR. WOODS: That's our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right. Then it's agreed that the
handwriting is that of Mr. McVeigh.
MR. ORENSTEIN: With that, your Honor, I have no
further questions on direct. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Woods.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Nellis.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers that was
appointed to represent Terry Nichols. You and I have never
met; is that correct?
A. No, sir.
Q. You told the jury that you graduated from the University of
Scranton; and where was that, again?
G. William Nellis - Cross
A. Pennsylvania.
Q. And you have a degree in criminal justice?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Went directly into the FBI?
A. After approximately a year I did.
Q. All right. And you did their 14-week training program?
A. 13 weeks.
Q. Oh, it's 13 weeks now?
A. It was when I went through.
Q. Okay. And how much of that 13 -- how many of those weeks
are devoted to firearms training?
A. Approximately eight weeks' intensive firearms training.
Q. Okay. So it's over 50 percent of the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Then you get your gun and badge and you're a real
agent and you go out and make arrests; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did it take you to discover that that's a replica?
A. I never discovered it was a replica. I was told.
Q. Okay. Now, the video cassette, have you looked at it?
A. At the cassette?
Q. Yes. Had you seen the contents? Have you placed it on a
VCR and watched "Mike Tyson" in a fight and also the cassette
about Waco?
A. No, I didn't.
MR. WOODS: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Nothing further. The witness is
excused.
THE COURT: Agree to excuse the witness, Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. FBI Agent Cullen Scott.
THE COURT: Come in, please.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(Cullen Scott affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Cullen Scott, S-C-O-T-T.
THE COURT: Miss Wilkinson.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Agent Scott. Tell the jury where you work.
A. I work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the
Kansas City field office.
Q. Are you an agent?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been an agent?
A. Over 28 years.
Cullen Scott - Direct
Q. I take it you were in Kansas City in April of 1995?
A. I was.
Q. Were you assigned to work on the Oklahoma City bombing
investigation?
A. Yes, I did (sic).
Q. Did you participate in the search of Mr. Nichols' house?
A. I did.
Q. Were you there on April 22 and into the morning of the 23d?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you seize several items in Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you look in your folder at Government Exhibit 1708.
A. Okay.
Q. Did you seize that tape, that videotape?
A. Yes. There are videotapes here, both of which I seized.
Q. Is the other marked 1710?
A. 1708 and 1710.
Q. Did you seize both of those tapes from the same area of
Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Where did you find them?
A. They were in what we called the storage room, which is a
room located in the southwest corner of the house. They were
located physically in a black plastic storage bin of some type.
Q. Is this storage room you're referring to the room right
Cullen Scott - Direct
next to the kitchen in the Nichols house?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you take those two tapes into custody?
A. I did.
Q. What did you do with them when you took them?
A. I logged them or they were logged in on our evidence log,
and they were initialed by an agent, and I placed them in an
exhibit envelope.
Q. Did you mark that exhibit envelope?
A. I did. My initials -- this is the envelope. And my
initials appear on the evidence tape which sealed the envelope.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we would offer
Government's Exhibit 1708 and 1710.
MR. WOODS: May I see the tapes, to see what they are,
your Honor?
THE COURT: Surely, you may.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1708, 1710 received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Scott, tell the jury how 1708 is marked.
A. The title of the tape?
Q. Yes, please.
Cullen Scott - Direct
A. Yes. It's labeled, "Waco: The Big Lie."
Q. How is 1710 marked?
A. Exactly the same.
Q. Are there any price tags or any small tags with a number on
those items?
A. Yes. Each of these tapes have an orange sticker with the
figure 5 on the sticker.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, at this time we would like
to announce a stipulation, that that handwriting is
Mr. Nichols' handwriting on those tapes.
MR. WOODS: We stipulated to that, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Then the handwriting on these
two exhibits is that of Mr. Nichols.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Scott, in front of you is also an ammunition box,
Government's Exhibit 1866. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you open up and see if you recognize the contents in
the ammunition box.
A. I do.
Q. Are they marked 1866A and 1866B?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you seize those from Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, from the garage at the Nichols residence.
Q. And were the two items that you've just taken out of the
Cullen Scott - Direct
box in the ammunition box when you found them?
A. Yes, they were.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer 1866, 1866A,
and 1866B.
MR. WOODS: If I may just take a look at those --
THE COURT: Certainly.
MR. WOODS: -- contents, your Honor?
No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1866, 1866A and 1866B received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Scott, tell the jury how 1866A and B are marked. What
are they?
A. These are -- they're marked, "Platoon Early-Warning
System." Each of them are marked exactly the same way.
They're early-warning devices.
Q. And you found those two, yourself; is that right?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Agent Scott. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one
of the lawyers appointed to represent Terry Nichols in this
case.
Cullen Scott - Cross
A. Good morning.
Q. You and I have never met; is that correct?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. You and I have never met; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. You seized the items in the storage area?
A. These two VCR cassettes I seized in the storage area of the
house.
Q. All right. Did you put your initials and the case number
on the VCRs?
A. No, sir. The initials on the VCR is the initials of
another agent who has since retired, Robert H. Meridith.
Q. Okay. You were present, though, when he seized them?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Is that your testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there a case number placed on the exhibit?
A. No, sir, I don't believe so. There's the -- his initials
and then the date and then the exhibit number.
Q. So nobody put a case number on the thing?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Now, the sticker on there is a price sticker, isn't
it?
A. That's what it appears to be.
Q. You said it says "5." Doesn't it say "5" with a dash like
Cullen Scott - Cross
$5?
A. It says "5" with a dash.
Q. Have you been to any gun shows?
A. Oh, maybe one or two in my -- in my life, in my adult life.
Q. Can you tell the jury what you've seen sold at the gun
shows that you've been to.
A. Guns, ammunition is all I can think of. I'm not --
Q. Have you ever seen videos sold at gun shows?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. You ever seen any Army surplus?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. You ever seen any old Army uniforms sold?
A. Yes.
Q. Printed material?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Okay. Now, where did you seize the ammunition can?
A. This was in the garage --
Q. Okay.
A. -- behind the Nichols residence.
Q. Now, did you personally seize that one?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you put a case number on it?
A. No, I don't believe I did. I just --
Q. On the lid, there's a lot of markings?
A. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, sir, there is, I did put a case number
Cullen Scott - Cross
on it.
Q. What case number did you put on there?
A. The FBI case number is 174A-KC-52160. That was
subsequently changed to another case number, I believe.
Q. You have a KC number rather than a OC number on there?
A. This is a KC number. It was early on in the investigation,
and it was subsequently changed to and it was OC number. This
was the original.
If I may look under this evidence piece of tape.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No, that's the only -- that's the only
case number on here.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Is a KC number?
A. Is a KC number, yes.
Q. And it's 174 KC what?
A. 52160.
Q. Now, do you know what the OC case number is for this
Oklahoma City investigation?
A. Yes, I have it here in front of me on this envelope.
Q. Okay. What is it?
A. It's 174-OC-52160.
Q. Okay. Are you sure that's the case number rather than it
being 56120?
A. Well, the way -- I don't recall the case number off the top
Cullen Scott - Cross
of my head, sir; but the way I read this, it's 52160.
Q. When was that case number placed on that envelope?
A. That was on the date of the search of the Nichols house,
and that was April 22 --
Q. All right.
A. -- 1995.
Q. Are you aware that every piece of evidence that was taken
out of that house had the wrong case number placed on it?
A. No, I'm not aware of that.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, sir.
No further questions.
THE COURT: Redirect.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Scott, you conducted this search in Kansas; correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And is that part of the reason why there was originally a
Kansas City case number assigned to this evidence?
A. Yes. Kansas is in the Kansas City field office territory.
Q. And you're aware generally of how the FBI numbers evidence
and gives case numbers; is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. In this investigation, were there also searches in Arizona,
New York, and Oklahoma City, and elsewhere?
A. There were.
Cullen Scott - Redirect
Q. And were various case numbers assigned because of the scope
of this investigation?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is it your understanding that at a certain point that
evidence was brought together in Oklahoma City and then here in
Denver for this case?
A. That's right. Oklahoma City was declared office -- what we
call office of origin in this case.
Q. Were those other numbers, the ones that you assigned in
Kansas City and elsewhere, all brought under the Oklahoma City
case number?
A. Yes, ma'am, that's correct.
MS. WILKINSON: No other questions, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: Just one clarification on that line of
questioning.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Scott, you're aware that Oklahoma City was the office
of origin, weren't you?
A. It was -- it became the office of origin.
Q. That's where the crime occurred, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't that where the office of origin is in every FBI case?
A. Normally that would be the case.
Cullen Scott - Recross
Q. There was a case number assigned in Oklahoma City the day
this crime occurred, wasn't there, on April the 19th, 1995?
A. Yes, I'm sure there was.
Q. And that case number went with this investigation from that
day forward, April 19, '95, until this very day, didn't it?
A. Yes, it did, but auxiliary offices apparently used their
own case numbers until it was all consolidated into one major
case.
Q. And when you're putting the OC case number on pieces of
evidence, you're putting that particular case number that
derived out of Oklahoma City on April the 19th, aren't you?
A. I'm sorry, would you repeat the question?
Q. Yes. When you put the case number that says OC in the
middle of it, Oklahoma City, you're using the case number
assigned to the case on April the 19th, '95, aren't you?
A. Yes.
MR. WOODS: All right. Thank you.
MS. WILKINSON: He's excused, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. FBI Agent Jerry Tucker.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Jerry Tucker affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Jerry Tucker, T-U-C-K-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Orenstein.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Tucker.
A. Good morning.
Q. Would you tell the jury how you're employed, please.
A. I'm a special agent with the FBI assigned to the Omaha
division.
Q. How long have you worked for the FBI?
A. 30 years.
Q. How long have you been stationed in Omaha?
A. Just about 10 years.
Q. Did you and colleagues of yours from the FBI participate in
executing a search warrant in Mr. Nichols' house in Herington,
Kansas, on April 22, 1995?
A. Yes.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
Q. And what parts of the house were you involved in searching?
A. I was involved with the search in the living room, the
dining area, laundry room, bathroom, part of the kitchen, and
two basements.
Q. Now, you mentioned the living room and the dining room.
Was the dining area within the larger room of the living room?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Was there a dining table?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you yourself recover some items from that area?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me ask you to look in your folder and see if you can
find Government Exhibit 1995, please.
Do you have that there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that one of the items that you found on top of the
dining table in Mr. Nichols' living room?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What is 1995?
A. It's a Quarton fax to Terry Nichols.
Q. And when you say Quarton, could you spell that, please.
A. Q-U-A-R-T-O-N.
Q. And that's a fax to Mr. Nichols from that company?
A. Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 1995, your Honor.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 1995 received.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. And, Mr. Tucker, let me show you on the screen in front of
you a portion of a clean copy of that that's been labeled as
1996. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. First of all, 1995 is discolored from the fingerprint
process?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a clean copy of the document that you found that's
labeled 1995?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 1996 as
demonstrative, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. 1996 is received for
demonstrative purposes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: With the Court's permission, may I
display it?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, there are some phone numbers that are listed
on this page. First of all, in the upper right-hand corner, do
you see a phone number there?
Jerry Tucker - Direct
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that number?
A. The 1-800-520-8435.
Q. And beneath that printed on the Quarton letterhead or faxed
letterhead, are there other numbers there?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. What is the telephone number that is listed there?
A. (210), the area code, 520-8430.
Q. What is the date of this fax?
A. April 13, 1995.
Q. And it says it's to Terry Nichols; is that correct?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And it has a phone number beneath that that is listed as a
fax number?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a fax in Mr. Nichols' house when you were
searching there?
A. I didn't see one.
Q. Now, let me direct your attention --
MR. ORENSTEIN: And I'll pull it up on the screen,
your Honor. It's demonstrative Exhibit 1888 that's been
received as demonstrative previously, and I'd like to show the
witness page 15.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, let me direct your attention to a portion of
Jerry Tucker - Direct
this page of calls for Thursday, April 13, 1995. Do you have
that in front of you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. There is a series of calls there between Mr. Nichols' home
and Quarton U.S.A. Limited; do you see those?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And the numbers for Quarton U.S.A. Limited: Those are the
numbers that are listed on the fax page?
A. Yes.
Q. And those are all in the morning -- I'm sorry, not all in
the morning -- There's one in the morning and then two in the
afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. And then the fourth call is from Quarton, and that also is
from a number that appears on the fax cover page?
A. Yes.
Q. And that call is to Catlin's IGA fax. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Would you compare that telephone number to the fax number,
the number listed to Terry Nichols' fax, on the cover page of
the fax report on the --
A. Yes, I have. They're the same.
Q. Same number?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let me direct your attention to the next page of
Jerry Tucker - Direct
Government Exhibit 1888, which lists calls on -- let me try
that again -- which lists calls on April -- I'm sorry -- one
more try -- listing calls on Friday, April 14, 1995. Do you
have that in front of you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, the first call there is at 9:51 a.m. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And that's to Mr. Nichols' home?
A. Yes.
Q. From the J & K Bus Depot in Junction City?
A. Yes.
Q. 20 minutes later there's the third call there at
10:11 a.m., and that's from Mr. Nichols' home. Do you see
that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And it's to the Quarton U.S.A. Limited once again?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that number for Quarton one of the numbers that's listed
on the fax cover page?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, if you would reach into your folder and look for
Government Exhibits 1993 and 2105, please.
I think if you'll look at the back of that, that might
be it.
Do you have both of those items?
Jerry Tucker - Direct
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, were those among the other items that you found on the
dining tabletop and put in the same evidence bag as the Quarton
fax?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Let's start with 1993, please. What is that?
A. It's a Kinko's receipt.
Q. And that's one of the items that was found on the tabletop?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 1993.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. ORENSTEIN: And if we could just display that
briefly to the jury.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Does what's on the screen show what's in front of you?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And if we could turn now to Government Exhibit 2105. What
is that, please.
A. It's a business card for Terry Nichols.
Q. Was that card the only such card you found on the tabletop,
or were there others?
A. There were others.
Q. So that was a sample that you took?
Jerry Tucker - Direct
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: And the Government offers Exhibit
2105, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 2105.
MR. ORENSTEIN: And may I display it, please.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, is what the jury is seeing on their screen
now a copy of Exhibit 2105?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. At the top it has the words "buy," "sell," "trade," and it
describes various items. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. At the bottom there is an address and telephone number.
Would you read those into the record, please.
A. The address is 1228 Westloop, No. 197, Manhattan, Kansas.
Telephone number is (913) 258-3400.
Q. That telephone number is the telephone number we were
seeing on the summary exhibit a few moments ago of calls
between Mr. Nichols' home and Quarton; is that correct? That
258-3400 number?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And the address on this card, 1228 Westloop, No. 197,
Manhattan, Kansas, that was not the address of the residence
Jerry Tucker - Direct
you were searching; is that correct?
A. No, it's not.
Q. I'd like you to take a look, please, at Exhibit 572,
Government Exhibit 572.
Do you have that there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that another one of the items you found on the dining
tabletop in the living room?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What is Government Exhibit 572?
A. It's a Marion National Bank notepad, phone pad.
Q. It's a little notepad --
A. Yes.
Q. -- from Marion National Bank.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers Exhibit 572.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received 572.
MR. ORENSTEIN: And we've put some of this on the
computer to display to the jury, if I may, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. First, does that show the cover of the notepad?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Let me direct your attention and display to the jury the
back of the third sheet inside of that.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
Do you see the name "Daryl Bridges" and some
information below that?
A. Yes, I do.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, at this time I'd like to
publish a stipulation between the parties that the handwriting
on that page being displayed to the jury is the handwriting of
Mr. Nichols.
MR. WOODS: We stipulate to that, your Honor.
THE COURT: And what page is that?
MR. ORENSTEIN: It's the back of the third sheet.
THE COURT: Then it's agreed that the back of the
third sheet, which you're now seeing on the screen, is the
writing of Terry Nichols. And printing, I guess.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, if I -- whoops.
Thank you.
If I may turn to the fourth sheet there, the front of
the fourth sheet, which you see on the screen now. Do you have
that in front of you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. There are names there for Jennifer McVeigh and an address
and phone number, and then "Mike Fortier" and a couple of
addresses and a phone number; do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, I'd like to publish a
Jerry Tucker - Direct
stipulation at this point that the handwriting now being
displayed to the jury from the front of the fourth page of the
Marion National Bank notepad contains the handwriting of
Mr. Terry Nichols.
MR. WOODS: We'd stipulate to that.
THE COURT: All right. Then it's agreed, and the jury
will accept that stipulation.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, let me direct your attention to another part
of the search. You mentioned that you searched some areas in
the basement of Mr. Nichols' home; is that correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, let me show you, if I may, Government Exhibit 1774,
Photo No. 4 in evidence. And you see some boxes there.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And did you search among those boxes?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you Photo No. 8 from Government Exhibit 1774.
That's one of the boxes we were just looking at in the previous
photo; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you look inside this box in particular?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you find in there?
A. Ammonium nitrate in bottles.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
Q. Do you recall how many bottles?
A. There was six.
Q. Now, we see in this photograph that some of these bottles
have labels. Did they all have labels?
A. My recollection is they all did.
Q. What was on the labels on these bottles?
A. It was "ammonium nitrate." It was either "prills" or
"powder." It says that it was a fertilizer and explosive.
Q. The word "explosive" was on there as well "ammonium
nitrate"?
A. The word "explosive" was highlighted in yellow.
Q. You should have with you -- I'm sorry. They're going to be
in a box here.
MR. ORENSTEIN: If I may retrieve them to show the
witness.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, I've placed before you Government Exhibit
2106 and 2108. Do you see those?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize them?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And if you would reach into those plastic bags and pull out
the bottles themselves, which are the exhibits.
Which one do you have there?
Jerry Tucker - Direct
A. I13. It's 2016.
Q. You used two numbers, 2016 is the Government exhibit one;
correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What is I13?
A. It would be the log number that we gave it the night we
took it.
Q. You assigned different numbers to different items for
purposes of your evidence log?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you also have 2018 there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that another one of the bottles that you found?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 2016 and 2018.
MR. WOODS: May I examine the label, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, please.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
Thank you. That's okay.
No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received. 2016, 2018.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, let me ask you to take a look, first, at
2016. Now, these are -- the exhibits that have just been
entered -- those are two of the six bottles; correct?
Jerry Tucker - Direct
A. Yes, it is.
Q. 2016 has a label on it. Can you read what the description
of the product is on that label?
A. "Ammonium nitrate fertilizer, explosive, 300 prills."
Q. Now, you mentioned the word "prills." Does that bottle
actually contain prills?
A. No, it does not.
Q. What does it contain?
A. Powder.
Q. Is there a price sticker on 2016?
A. Yes.
Q. What does the price sticker say?
A. "5." $5.
Q. "5" with a dash?
A. Yes.
Q. And turning to 2018. Now, 2016 that you were just looking
at contained powder; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What does 2018 contain?
A. Prills.
Q. And what is the price -- is there a price sticker, first of
all?
A. Yes.
Q. What does it say?
A. "3.00." $3.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
Q. Just going back to 2016 for a moment, you were reading the
label. You mentioned some numbers under the word "ammonium
nitrate, fertilizer"?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you just read into the record what that says?
A. "30-0-0" (sic).
Q. Now, we don't have all six in front of you; isn't that
correct?
A. Right.
Q. Have you seen and helped prepare a chart that showed --
summarizes the contents and the price stickers and the
descriptions on each of the six bottles that you found?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Is that Government Exhibit 2018A?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 2018A as a summary
exhibit, your Honor.
THE COURT: It's illustrative, I think.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes, it's demonstrative.
MR. WOODS: Is this in lieu of bringing in the six
bottles?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Instead of putting in all six, yes.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 2018A is received as a demonstrative
exhibit.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
MR. ORENSTEIN: And if I may display it, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, Agent Tucker, we have on the screen this demonstrative
exhibit. Does that show a description of the six bottles that
you found in Mr. Nichols' basement?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. It says that three of the bottles were of 24-ounce size?
A. Yes.
Q. And the other three were 8-ounce size; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they all contain prills?
A. No.
Q. This shows that one of 24-ounce size contained prills, the
other two contained powder; and one of the 8-ounce size
contained prills, and the other two contained powder; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What was the price sticker for the 24-ounce powder bottles?
A. They were $12.
Q. And for the 24-ounce prill bottles?
A. $8.
Q. What was the price for the 8-ounce powder bottles?
A. $5.
Q. And for the 8-ounce prill bottles?
Jerry Tucker - Direct
A. $3.
Q. Now, to your knowledge, were those six bottles of ammonium
nitrate the total quantity of ammonium nitrate that was found
inside of Mr. Nichols' home?
A. As far as I know, yes.
Q. In addition to the bottles, did you also find some
instruction labels in the basement concerning ammonium nitrate?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you take any of those labels?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you take all of them?
A. No.
Q. Let me ask you to take a look at Government Exhibits 2025
and 2026.
Do you have those in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. First of all, are they both the same?
A. Yes.
Q. And were those the samples of instruction labels that you
found?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Also in Mr. Nichols' basement?
A. Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers Exhibits 2025 and
2026.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
MR. WOODS: Are you going to display them here?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes.
MR. WOODS: May I take a look at them?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
Thank you.
No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They're received, 2025, 2026.
MR. ORENSTEIN: And may I display 2025, your Honor?
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, do you have on the display screen Exhibit
2025?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. First of all, what's written at the top there?
A. "Plant food fertilizer."
Q. Now, beneath it says "34-0-0," do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. If you can compare that to what's on the bottles, is that
the same as what's on the bottles?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you said "30-0-0," but it says on the bottle "34"?
A. It says "34" on the bottle.
Q. Now, beneath --
MR. WOODS: I'm confused. Where does the "30-0-0"
Jerry Tucker - Direct
come from?
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Was that just a misstatement when you said --
A. It would have been a misstatement. The bottles say
"34-0-0."
MR. WOODS: Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, beneath the 34-0-0, there's a description of the
product and some directions. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's basically for using this as plant food; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you read into the record what appears beneath those
three paragraphs.
A. It's an address for Ground Zero Impact, 1228 Westloop, No.
197, Manhattan, Kansas, 66502.
Q. Now, when you recovered these instruction sheets during
your search, had you ever heard of a company called Ground Zero
Impact?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you know at that time what was located at the
Manhattan, Kansas address listed there for Ground Zero Impact?
A. No, I didn't.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
Q. But you see that that's the same address as on Mr. Nichols'
business card?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, in addition to these labels about Ground Zero Impact,
did you also find containers with ammunition in various parts
of the basement?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And in what kinds of containers did you find ammunition?
A. Ammo boxes, cardboard boxes, and tin can.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. And a tin can, cookie can.
Q. So some of the ammo cans and other items that you seized
contained ammunition; they weren't empty?
A. That's correct.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, with Agent Tongate's
assistance, I'd like to show several items to the witness.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, I've loaded you up there with a few exhibits.
For the record, do you have in front of Government Exhibit
1860?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. 1861?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. 1862?
Jerry Tucker - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. 1864?
A. Yes.
Q. And 1865?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have all of those in front of you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, you looked at those before coming to court, didn't
you?
A. Yes.
Q. In 1860, 1862, 1864, and 1865 are there separately marked
samples of ammunition?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And those were just samples from what you had found?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you recognize all of those exhibits as the
ammunition cans and containers that you found in Mr. Nichols'
basement on April 22?
A. Yes, I do.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 1860, 1860A, 1861,
1862, 1862A, 1864, 1864A, 1865, and 1865A.
THE COURT: I haven't heard these A described.
MR. ORENSTEIN: I'm sorry.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. These separately marked samples that you just mentioned a
Jerry Tucker - Direct
moment ago --
A. Yes.
Q. -- those are marked with the A numbers?
A. Yes.
Q. So 1861A is a sample from 1860 -- 1861, rather?
A. Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: With that, your Honor --
MR. WOODS: I think I understand. No objection.
THE COURT: So these exhibits are received. 1860,
1860A, 1862, 1862A, 1864, 1864A, 1865, 1865A, and 1861.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor. We have
nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Agent Tucker.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers appointed by
the district court in Oklahoma City to help Terry Nichols in
this case.
You and I have never met; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Jerry Tucker - Cross
Q. Okay. You've been in the FBI for 30 years?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was your educational background to become qualified to
be in the FBI?
A. Four-year college degree and three years of on-the-job
training as a support employee.
Q. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you.
A. I have a four-year college degree, and I have five years
support time, which would qualify me for consideration for an
agent's class.
Q. Okay. Where did you go to college?
A. Southeastern University.
Q. Is that that school in Washington that a lot of the clerks
go to?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you became a agent after five years?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. In April '95, you were assigned to Omaha?
A. Yes.
Q. And you got assigned to go to Herington; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when did you arrive in Herington?
A. Would have been on the evening of the 21st.
Q. And you participated in the search on Saturday, the 22d?
A. Excuse me. I got in Kansas the 21st. I believe I got in
Jerry Tucker - Cross
Herington on the 22d.
Q. Okay. That's Saturday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you took part in the briefing prior to the execution of
the search warrant?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you read the search warrant?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And who was the affiant on this search warrant? Do
you recall?
A. I don't recall.
Q. How many people were there in the briefing?
A. I don't know.
Q. Who led the briefing?
A. I don't recall.
Q. What team were you on?
A. I was a part of the Omaha team.
Q. Okay. Who was part of your team as you went from room to
room to search? Who were the members of your team?
A. Mary Jasnowski was the supervisor, and she gave me the
assignments. I worked with quite a few other individuals
during the course of the search.
Q. You were sort of in every room, weren't you?
A. In the house, yes.
Q. And you didn't mention the bedroom; but you helped search
Jerry Tucker - Cross
the bedroom, too, didn't you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Weren't you part of the team that was in the bedroom when
Mr. Tongate found the money?
A. No, I was not.
MR. WOODS: May I have one moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Do you recall the bedroom being designated 1B?
A. I believe so.
Q. And you recall Mr. Nellis being the one that kept the
recovery log of the items found in that room?
A. I believe so.
Q. And that team consisted of William Nellis, Joanne Thomas,
Jerry Tucker, and Larry Tongate?
A. It's possible.
Q. Well, have you reviewed the evidence recovery log in this
case before you testified about the evidence that you
recovered?
A. I don't believe I recovered any evidence from the bedrooms.
Q. You were on that sheet, weren't you, that items were
recovered there?
A. I may be on a sheet, but I didn't recover any evidence in
the bedroom.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Tongate recovering some money in the
Jerry Tucker - Cross
bedroom?
A. I learned that he had, yes.
Q. Did you learn it while you were there observing it?
A. No.
Q. All right. You recall how much money was recovered?
A. I don't recall.
Q. All right. Now, the exhibits that were shown -- the
Kinko's receipt appeared to be real smudged and dirty, we
couldn't read it, and it was taken off the screen real quick.
Do you have that in front of you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you tell us the date and time that's on that Kinko's
receipt?
THE COURT: Is this 1993?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, Exhibit 1993.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: The time is 2:15. The date is 4-18-95.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. And it's a Kinko's where?
A. On Anderson Street, Manhattan, Kansas.
Q. All right. Does it say what the item is that was
purchased?
A. It lists a price, but I don't know what item was
purchased --
Q. All right.
Jerry Tucker - Cross
A. -- from the receipt.
Q. Was that laying next to the box of business cards where you
found the business cards?
A. It was in that area, yes.
Q. And you testified to the jury that you took one of the
business cards out of the box?
A. Yes.
Q. How many were in the box, approximately? I mean, you
didn't count them, of course, but --
A. I believe it was rather full.
Q. All right. And the business card that was shown on the
screen was real smudged. It wasn't dirty like that when you
took it out of the box, was it?
A. No.
Q. Was that the fingerprint process that made it dirty like
that?
A. I would assume so.
Q. You didn't make it dirty like that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall while you were there at the house, 109 South
2nd Street, how far away the Catlin's Grocery was?
A. I'm not aware of the grocery.
Q. Okay. There was an open lot, wasn't there, behind
Mr. Nichols' house?
A. I don't know. I wasn't behind, in the lot.
Jerry Tucker - Cross
Q. You were just only in the house, didn't notice the
surroundings?
A. It was dark by the time I got there.
Q. What time did you get there?
A. A little after 7, I believe.
Q. And this is in April?
A. April.
Q. Daylight Savings Time?
A. It appeared to me it was towards dusk time of the day.
Q. Okay. You didn't notice the surroundings, notice where
Catlin's Grocery was?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did you ever go around Herington? It's not that big, is
it?
A. I recall visiting one cafe there.
Q. Did you ever notice where Catlin's was?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. You're aware that some businesses have fax machines
to receive faxes for customers, aren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen any sacks of fertilizer, sir, in your career
in the FBI, in 30 years?
A. Yes, I've seen fertilizer.
Q. And don't they have an explosive label on them? Isn't that
required?
Jerry Tucker - Cross
A. I really don't know.
Q. Have you examined the sacks of fertilizer, 34-0-0, that are
alleged to be in connection with this case in any location?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Haven't seen any explosive label on any label for
ammonium nitrate?
A. I don't understand what you're saying.
Q. Yes, sir. Have you seen any labels on commercially sold
ammonium nitrate?
A. I've never bought any.
Q. Have you seen any in connection with this case?
A. It's only the ones I have here.
Q. Well. Are you aware that it's a state requirement that you
put an explosive label on ammonium nitrate fertilizer?
A. I'm not aware of that, no.
Q. Now, you distinguished for the jury the difference in price
between ground and prill; is that correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And are you aware that the ammonium nitrate comes in prill
forms?
A. Yes.
Q. And that some labor has to be applied to get it to a ground
state?
A. I don't know how they do that.
Q. Well, didn't you see -- didn't the FBI seize a blender from
Jerry Tucker - Cross
Mr. Nichols' house and a paper funnel?
A. I don't know that they did.
Q. You're not aware of what was seized at the house?
A. I'm aware of what I've taken.
Q. Were you aware of what Mr. Nichols told the FBI about how
he blended it and put it in bottles?
A. No, I'm not aware of that.
Q. And you haven't seen the blender that was seized from the
house?
A. I don't recall seeing a blender.
Q. At any rate, the prices on the bottles indicate a
difference between ground and prill; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the directions indicate how to mix it with water as a
plant food.
A. Yes.
Q. Have you been to any gun shows, Mr. Tucker?
A. I don't believe I have.
Q. You don't believe you have?
A. I can't recall ever being to one.
Q. Okay. And the ammunition that you have stacked in front of
you there is of various calibers; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In various containers?
A. Yes.
Jerry Tucker - Cross
Q. There are price tags on the bottles of ammonium nitrate; is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, did you put a case number on the items that you
seized?
A. What do you mean by a "case number"?
Q. Do you know what a case number is in the FBI?
A. An FBI case number?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you put that case number on any of the items that you
seized?
A. Yes.
Q. Which items did you place it on?
A. I put it on the boxes and the containers I put them in.
Q. What case number did you put on the items?
A. I put down the case number that we were given at the time
and --
Q. What is it, for the record?
A. It is 174A-OC-52160.
Q. Now, that's not the case number, is it, for the Oklahoma
City bombing investigation?
A. No, it's not.
Q. Did you label all the items you seized with that number?
A. Yes.
Jerry Tucker - Cross
Q. All right.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor, no further
questions.
THE COURT: Any redirect.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes, your Honor. I also -- I
apologize. I neglected one of the items, if I may do that,
rather than recall the agent later, with Counsel's indulgence
as well.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Agent Tucker, I've placed before you Exhibit 1867. Do you
see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if you would look inside that and look for two devices
marked 1867A and 1867B.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize those?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Are those items that you found in the basement storage area
of Mr. Nichols' house?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. What are 1867A and B?
A. The label says they're an anti-intrusion device, a
detector, anti-intrusion device.
Q. And that's what it says on both of them?
Jerry Tucker - Redirect
A. Yes.
Q. And 1867 is the can in which you found them?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 1867, 1867A, and
1867B.
MR. WOODS: Is this a different one than the one that
was previously entered?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes.
THE COURT: Marked differently, anyway.
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: It's marked differently, or these are
marked differently.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
Okay. Thank you.
No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, 1867, 1867A and B are received.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, Agent Tucker, on cross-examination, Mr. Woods was
asking you about the Kinko's receipt and the business cards
that you found; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you know when the business cards were purchased?
A. No, I don't.
Q. But if they were purchased with that receipt, then they
Jerry Tucker - Redirect
weren't purchased until April 18; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you were also asked about your knowledge of fertilizer
being sold commercially and labeling requirements. Do you
recall being asked about that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any state law that requires commercially
sold fertilizer to be called Ground Zero Impact?
A. No, I'm not.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, I have nothing further,
your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, Mr. Tucker, the labels on those bottles aren't calling
the ammonium nitrate Ground Zero Impact, are they?
A. No, sir.
Q. That's the name of the company that's selling them, isn't
it?
A. I would assume so.
Q. Okay. Now, did you put labels on these new objects that
have come in? By "labels," I mean did you put your initial on
it and did you also put the case number on it?
THE COURT: This is 1867A?
MR. WOODS: Yes. I'm sorry, your Honor. For the
record, you're correct.
Jerry Tucker - Recross
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. The new items the prosecutor just offered into evidence,
1867 and A and B, I believe: Did you put your initials and the
case number on that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Is it the wrong case number again?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you. Nothing further, your
Honor.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Nothing further. The witness is
excused.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. WOODS: He's excused.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
If somebody will get these exhibits, please.
The clerk will take care of the exhibits.
Next witness.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. We'll call Linda
Pascoe.
THE COURT: Go ahead and swear the witness.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Linda Pascoe affirmed.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat here, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Linda K. Pascoe. P-A-S-C-O-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I proceed, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, sir.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good morning, Miss Pascoe.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where are you from, please.
A. Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Q. What do you for a living in Hot Springs?
A. I work in Arkansas Bank and Trust Company as the operating
officer.
Q. Does the Arkansas Bank and Trust have more than one branch?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Where is the branch located in which you work?
A. The downtown main branch.
Q. Downtown Hot Springs?
A. Yes. 835 Central Avenue.
Q. About how far is that from Royal, Arkansas?
A. About 20 miles, 15 to 20.
Q. And now, does the Arkansas Bank and Trust Company rent out
safe-deposit boxes?
Linda Pascoe - Direct
A. Yes, sir, they do.
Q. And does the bank keep any records in connection with the
rental of its safe-deposit boxes?
A. Yes, sir, we do.
Q. Are you familiar with those records as part of your duties?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I'd like you to reach into your folder and find, if you
can, Government Exhibit 1872.
Do you have that, ma'am?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recognize 1872?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is it, please?
A. It's a safe-deposit record agreement. It's also disclosure
and signature card for the safe-deposit box at our ABT, between
us and our client.
Q. ABT: That's your bank, Arkansas Bank and Trust?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a record that's maintained in the ordinary course
of the bank's business?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 1872, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 1872.
MR. ORENSTEIN: And if I may display it.
Linda Pascoe - Direct
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, sir.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, ma'am, let me ask you: Looking at that record, who is
renting that box -- First of all, what is the box number?
A. Box No. 3092.
Q. Who is renting Box 3092 at the Hot Springs branch of your
bank in the fall of 1994?
A. Carol M. Moore and Roger E. Moore.
Q. Now, do you have any personal knowledge, yourself, of those
two persons besides whatever you see in the records?
A. No, the banking records.
Q. Did you also look for bank records concerning Mr. Terry
Nichols?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. Did your bank have any such records?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you mentioned that people renting this box, 3092, were
Roger Moore and Carol Moore; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. According to this record, Government Exhibit 1872, when did
they rent that box? When did they begin renting it?
A. Date rented was October 15, 1991.
Q. And when was this box closed out?
A. December 2, 1994.
Linda Pascoe - Direct
Q. Was anyone other than Roger Moore or Carol Moore authorized
to use that safe-deposit box?
A. No, sir.
Q. And if anyone else was authorized to use it, would it be
listed on this form?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, if you look up in the upper right-hand corner, it says
Box No. -- let me focus your attention there -- Box No. 3092-9.
A. Yes.
Q. Did can you explain the "dash 9," please.
A. "Dash 9" is our branch location. We rent other safety
deposit boxes at other areas, and this gives us the area that
box is in.
Q. So this is the record for the only 3092-9 box in downtown
Hot Springs?
A. At the downtown branch, yes.
Q. Beneath the names at the top, there's a description, a
physical description of the people who rented boxes. Do you
see that?
A. Yes, sir, the size.
Q. Yes, size, weight, hair, etc. What is that there for?
A. That's to describe the person coming in so that if the
clerk happens to be a different clerk, they'll have something
to match their ID to, to make sure the picture and ID match to
sign and open the box.
Linda Pascoe - Direct
Q. It's another security measure?
A. Right.
Q. Let me focus your attention, please, on the sort of middle
of the right-hand side of the document, where it says, "release
of the box."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you explain what that means?
A. When they come in to release the box or close out the box,
the customer must acknowledge the fact that they've been into
the box, there is nothing there, and they no longer wish to
have a box.
Q. And when did that happen in this case?
A. December 2, 1994.
Q. That same day, December 2, 1994, did Roger Moore and Carol
Moore take out another box at the same branch?
A. Yes, sir, they did.
Q. Let me ask you to look at Government Exhibit 1872A, which
you should have with you.
Do you have that?
A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir.
Q. What is that, please.
A. It's a safe-deposit record and agreement between Arkansas
Bank and Trust and Carol M. and Roger E. Moore.
Q. And what is it dated?
A. December 2, 1994.
Linda Pascoe - Direct
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers -- I'm sorry.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Was that kept in the ordinary course of your business?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers 1872A.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. And the date you just mentioned, December 2, 1994: That's
the same date that the earlier box was closed out?
A. Exactly.
Q. Okay. Going back to 1872, the earlier box, how many keys
were issued when that box was rented out?
A. You're talking box 3092, the original box?
Q. Yes.
A. There were two keys issued.
Q. And is that reflected on the rental agreement?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, when the Arkansas Bank and Trust Company rents out a
safe-deposit box, how does it package its keys? Are they
packaged in any way?
A. They -- they're packaged in small envelopes with a snap on
them that each key is put in an individual envelope and given.
Q. Now, let me ask you to find 1873 in evidence, which should
be in your folder. Do you have that there?
Linda Pascoe - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And why don't you pull it out from that plastic envelope.
Tell the jury if you recognize what Exhibit 1873 is.
A. Yes. It's one of the envelopes we place the keys in.
Q. And let me ask you to open up the envelope and take out
what's inside.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize that as one of the keys for an Arkansas
Bank and Trust box?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And does it have the box number stamped on it?
A. Box No. 3092.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I retrieve the exhibit for a
moment, your Honor --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: -- to display it on the ELMO?
Thank you.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Do you see there, Miss Pascoe, the back of the envelope
that has the letter M written on it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that a marking there that's placed by the bank?
A. No, sir.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor. I have nothing
further on direct.
Linda Pascoe - Direct
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good morning, Miss Pascoe.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help out Terry Nichols. And I just want to get some details
about how the safe-deposit box system works so that our record
will be complete.
I'm going to place on the device here the -- what's
been received as Government Exhibit 1872. Do you have a copy
of that up with you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, if we look here, we see that the box is
rented in the name of Carol Moore; correct?
A. Right.
Q. And then the other name is Roger Moore, and after that is
the word "husband"; correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, where did you get the information that Roger Moore is
the husband of Carol Moore?
A. That was given to us by Miss Moore, Mr. Moore.
Q. Would it be given to you by the customer?
Now, again, you didn't -- did you handle any part of
the transaction that we're looking at?
Linda Pascoe - Cross
A. No, sir, just the security end of it to make sure the
documents were right.
Q. All right. So what we're looking at are the bank records,
and what we know is what you can tell from the records; right?
But the person who rents it, they tell you what the
relationship is; right?
A. Right.
Q. And in addition to telling you that Mr. Moore was her
husband, Mrs. Moore also signed on at least one occasion a
survivorship contract; right?
A. Right.
Q. And that is attached to 1872A; and that just tells the bank
that if one of these two people is -- dies, that the other one
has the right to come in and get in the box; right?
A. Exactly.
Q. Looking back at 1872, you issued two keys; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that we can see way down at the bottom here, it says,
"Receipt of two keys is hereby acknowledged"; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the way this works is that the two people who are on
the contract have the right to come in and get in the box;
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when they -- a person shows up at the bank and says,
Linda Pascoe - Cross
"Hello, I am the box holder," they present their key and some
identification; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you got to have both things, you have to have the key
and you have to have something that identifies you as the same
person that rented it; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, if -- if I showed up and said that my name is
Roger Moore and you looked and you saw that I have blue eyes
instead of green and I didn't have the same color hair and
didn't look anything like him, then I wouldn't get in even if I
had the key; correct?
A. More than likely you wouldn't get in the box.
Q. That's the way you plan it, that I wouldn't get in there?
A. Right.
Q. The person who has the key, that alone didn't get them in
the box? Another key is needed; is that the way you work it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So simultaneously the box holder and another employee of
the bank have to be at the box in order to open it up and get
it out; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when somebody rents one of these boxes, you don't have
any way of knowing what they put in the there; correct?
A. Correct.
Linda Pascoe - Cross
Q. You advertise the boxes as being suitable for their
confidential documents; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much. I have nothing
further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Very briefly, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. The procedures for entering the box and for using it,
that's something that you explain -- not you personally, but
the bank explains to its customers when they rent the boxes;
correct?
A. Right.
Q. But if somebody has a key who isn't a customer, you don't
know whether they would know that or not?
A. No.
Q. And you were asked about what the box is suitable for
containing. Does the record that you've offered here today --
does that say how large the box was?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it 3 inches by 10 inches?
A. Right.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you. Nothing further.
MR. TIGAR: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Witness excused, I take it.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
We'll take our midmorning recess, members of the jury,
which of course is subject to the same cautions and
restrictions as all recesses were before and still are of
please keep open minds, avoiding discussion among yourselves
and all others about anything connected with the case and
continuing to avoid anything outside the evidence that could
influence you in this case.
You're excused now, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:26 a.m.)
THE COURT: We have some exhibits coming up, I assume,
through a witness that I see scheduled here where there's
objection? These Exhibits 975 and 1244.
MR. WOODS: Is that Mr. Franey?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, they've agreed to withdraw
those.
MS. WILKINSON: We don't intend to offer them.
THE COURT: All right. And then there's also a motion
concerning testimony of a Roger Moore.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: And I see him on the schedule.
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, we filed a motion, also, your
Honor.
THE COURT: I see it. Do you have argument in
addition to the motion?
MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor. We -- this matter has
been briefed and argued extensively. We wanted to let the
Court know what the state of the record was.
THE COURT: All right. The motion to bar the
testimony is denied.
The motion on impeachment is also denied because I
don't consider this to be an impeachment issue, but an issue
relating to the nature of the business and the nature of gun
shows. So those are the rulings, I believe, for -- that we
need to make on matters that are coming up soon.
We'll take the recess.
(Recess at 10:28 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:48 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 10:48 a.m.)
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. United States would
next call Ms. Peggy Money.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Peggy Money affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Peggy Sue Money, M-O-N-E-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Orenstein?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Money.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where are you from, ma'am?
A. Jacksonville, Florida.
Q. Now, with a name like Money, you wouldn't be in the banking
industry, would you?
A. Yes, I am, in fact.
Q. Well, which bank do you work for?
A. First Union National Bank.
Q. Where is that located?
A. It's located in Jacksonville, but they have offices
throughout Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Virginia, and the
New England states.
Q. Your office is in Jacksonville?
Peggy Money - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Does the bank have a branch in Sebastian, Florida?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. What are your duties with the bank?
A. My duties include -- I manage the area that handles liens,
levies, and garnishments. We also handle the research on
records subpoenas and also witness subpoenas, and part of that
responsibility is attending depositions and court appearances
for the state of Florida.
Q. Now, does the First Union National Bank of Florida rent out
safe-deposit boxes?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Does the bank keep records in connection with those
rentals?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. It's part of your job to be familiar with those records?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You've got a folder in front of you. I'd like you to see
if you have there Government's Exhibit 1869.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is Government's Exhibit 1869?
A. This is a safe-deposit box contract.
Q. Is it a certified copy of a record and you made that copy?
Peggy Money - Direct
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is it kept in the ordinary course of your bank's
business?
A. Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: I'd like to offer Exhibit 1869, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1869 received.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Let me display it, if I may, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. That's part of the record, 1869, that's on your screen now?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this is a record for Box 347. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. At which branch?
A. At the Branch 583. That's the numeric number for the
Sebastian branch.
Q. That's the number we see right at the top there, 583?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in -- according to this record, in the fall of 1994,
who was renting Box 347 at the Sebastian branch of your bank?
A. The box was rented in the name of Carol Moore and Roger E.
Moore.
Peggy Money - Direct
Q. Now, Ms. Money, aside from what you may see in these
records, do you know anything personally about Carol Moore or
Roger Moore?
A. No.
Q. Did you also receive a request to search the banks records
for records concerning a person named Terry Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any such records in the bank's files?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, this document that is on the screen still, the rental
for Box 347, according to this record, when was the box rented?
A. July 21, '94.
Q. And starting on July 21, 1994, who was authorized to have
access to Box 347?
A. Carol Moore and Roger E. Moore.
Q. Was anyone other than those two persons authorized to have
access to that safe-deposit box?
A. No.
Q. If someone else were authorized, would that show up on the
records that you've got there?
A. Yes, it would.
Q. Now, the record shows the size of the box, if I may focus
in on it there. Is that that "3x10"?
A. Yes, that's the size.
Q. What does that mean?
Peggy Money - Direct
A. Well, they've got various sizes. That's 3 inches by 10.
Q. How deep is that, by the way?
A. Pardon.
Q. How deep is that?
A. Is 3-by-10 inches.
Q. How far back does it go? Do you know?
A. Well, it would be 3-by-10, so the deep would be 10 inches.
Sorry.
Q. Now, returning to the full document, there is another
portion here which I'd like to ask you about. It says, "Closed
12-13-94." Can you explain that, please.
A. They came in and requested the --
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: -- safe-deposit box be closed.
THE COURT: The "they came in": You don't know that.
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: That was the objection?
MR. TIGAR: That was the objection.
THE COURT: Just what the record shows is what you
know.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. What does the record show?
A. The box was closed December 13, '94.
Q. At that same day was there another box rented by those same
Peggy Money - Direct
individuals?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you to take a look at Government's Exhibit 1869,
please.
Do you have that? I'm sorry. 1869A?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that, please.
A. This is a box that was opened December 13 of '94 in the
name of Carol Moore and Roger E. Moore, and it's the Box
No. A536.
Q. And at which branch?
A. Sebastian Branch No. 583.
Q. So same branch, just a different box was opened the same
day the first one was closed?
A. Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Government offers Exhibit 1869A.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Ms. Money, in order for a customer to open a new box at the
Sebastian branch or any branch, do all of the renters have to
be there personally?
A. No, they do not.
Peggy Money - Direct
Q. They can sign on later?
A. One person can open the box and sign a temporary card and
take the permanent card back to the joint owner or the other
party to sign and bring back in.
Q. Now, how many keys does the bank normally issue in its
normal practices when a box is rented out?
A. Normally when it's issued in two parties, it will issue two
keys.
Q. And how are those keys packaged, if at all?
A. They normally will put the keys in a little key envelope.
They will usually write the box number on it, and it will have
the name of First Union on the little key envelope.
Q. The bank personnel put the box number on the envelope?
A. The bank representative should write the number on the
envelope, and they usually also put the size of the box.
Q. Let me ask you to take a look at Government's Exhibit 1871,
which you should have up there with you. If you could just
take that out of the plastic envelope.
MR. ORENSTEIN: That's already in evidence, I believe,
your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Why don't you just take that out of the plastic envelope so
you can take a look at it.
Peggy Money - Direct
What is 1871, please.
A. Okay. 1871 is the actual key, Diebold key, and the key
envelope.
Q. Now, first of all, you mentioned Diebold. That's what's
stamped into the key itself?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the manufacturer for the keys that the bank issues?
A. Yes.
Q. And you recognize the envelope that 1871 is with?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you recognize that envelope?
A. That is the key envelopes that are issued when they
purchase or request a safe-deposit box, and those are the
envelopes that are made just for that purpose.
Q. And is there anything written on that envelope to indicate
which box it's for?
A. It has the number 347 and also the size of 3-by-10.
Q. So those are the key and envelope that are associated with
the records for that box, 347?
A. Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, ma'am.
I have nothing further on direct, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Peggy Money - Cross
Q. Good morning, ma'am.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help Terry Nichols.
I wanted to start by putting up here what's been
received as 1871, and that's that key envelope. Right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you see it says: "For your extra key. Keep in a safe
place"?
Do you have two different kinds of envelopes you give
to people; that is, one for the one and one for the extra?
A. That's up to the customer. They could put two keys in one
envelope or they could give them two envelopes. It depends on
what the customer requests.
Q. All right. So in the normal course of your business, the
extra key -- that would be the customer's choice to have an
envelope that says that; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, could you take a look, please, at what you have up
there at Government's Exhibit 1869 and look at the entry
record, if you would, please.
A. The 1869A?
Q. No, just 1869. Not the A but the first one.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, is what I'm showing you here a copy of some cards that
Peggy Money - Cross
are kept in a card file?
A. What you're showing me is the entry record, yes, sir.
Q. I see. Now, on this entry record, we have an initial date
of 7-21-94, and then we have some other entries by Carol Moore
on through '94. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, on the next card, we have 7-21-94 typed in; and does
that simply -- that is designed to carry over the record from
one card to another?
A. Yes, it was. This indicates that Card No. 1 that's
indicated with the 1 in the circle -- that means that Carol
Moore actually rented the box and she took the permanent card,
which is the 2, back to have the co-owner to sign the card; so
that's why you'll see the 1 and the 2. It doesn't normally
happen that way. It's only when they have to take the card to
get another signature.
Q. I see. So we have Carol Moore alone on the top one, and
then we move down and we see Roger Moore has signed on here?
A. Yes.
Q. So that he'd be the co-owner; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you have any records that show what the
relationship is between these two people?
A. No.
Q. Now, these dates down here: These represent the dates and
Peggy Money - Cross
hours upon which the people who signed in accessed the box; is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So first we have 7-21, 8-26. With then we have 11-30-94.
This is November 30, 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. And the box was not closed out until December 13, 1994. Is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And these two cards that I've just showed you represent the
only entries into that box. Is that right?
A. Yes. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, in order to get in the box, it's just like -- I
mean, how long have you been in the banking industry?
A. Well, I've been with this bank 21 years but a total of
about 26.
Q. Safe-deposit box works the same in every bank you've ever
worked for; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You get one key the bank has, one key the customer has, and
the record shows every time somebody goes in. Right?
A. Yes, that's correct.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, ma'am. I appreciate
it.
I have nothing further, your Honor.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Nothing, your Honor. The witness is
excused.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're now excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we will call ATF Agent Luke
Franey.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(Luke Franey affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Luke Franey, F-R-A-N-E-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Agent Franey.
A. Good morning.
Q. Could you tell the jury which agency you're associated
with.
A. Yes. I'm employed by United States Treasury Department
Luke Franey - Direct
within the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Q. Commonly referred to as the ATF?
A. That's correct.
Q. Are you a special agent with ATF?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. How long have you been so?
A. Since July 5 of 1988.
Q. Did you go to college?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I attended Sam Houston State University in Huntsville,
Texas, graduating in 1986 with a bachelor's degree in criminal
justice.
Q. What did you do after you left college?
A. I worked a short time for the Port Aransas Police
Department.
Q. Where is that?
A. In Port Aransas, Texas, down by Corpus Christi.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I was then employed by the U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services, in their Office of Inspector General, which is
their investigative arm.
And then -- excuse me -- in 1988, I was hired by ATF
out of the Dallas field division.
Q. Can you tell the jury what you do as an agent with the ATF.
Luke Franey - Direct
What's -- what are your duties and responsibilities?
A. My job as an ATF agent in the Oklahoma City field office is
to investigate violations of the firearms, explosive -- also
the alcohol and tobacco violations as well -- in the western
half of the -- western half of Oklahoma.
Q. You mentioned Oklahoma City. Is that where you're
currently assigned?
A. That is correct.
Q. Were you assigned there in April of 1995?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And can you tell the jury where the offices of the ATF are
located on April 19, 1995.
A. Our office was located in the Murrah Building at 200 N.W.
5th Street in downtown Oklahoma City.
Q. On which floor did you have your ATF offices?
A. We were on the ninth floor.
Q. Could you take a look at your screen at Government's
Exhibit 853 which has not yet been introduced into evidence.
Do you recognize that photograph?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What does that depict?
A. That is a picture of the Murrah Building in downtown
Oklahoma City prior to April 19 of 1995.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we offer 853.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
Luke Franey - Direct
THE COURT: Received, 853.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Franey, can you tell the jury what they're looking at
here, please.
A. That is a view from the northwest looking at the Murrah
Building. 5th Street would be the street that is running
directly in front underneath the glass side there.
Q. And that glass side is the north side of the building; is
that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now -- we'll get to the diagram, but where were the ATF
offices? Were they on the glass side or others of the
building?
A. There were actually two ATF offices on the ninth floor of
the Murrah Building. The law enforcement office was on the
southeast corner, which would be the opposite side of the
glass; but we also had a compliance and licensing office which
would have been on the northwest corner of the building.
Q. Okay. Let's look at 952, the floor plan for the ninth
floor. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you take your pen. And let's start with the small
office there at the front, which I assume is the office that
you just described that abuts the windows. Is that right?
A. Down right here.
Luke Franey - Direct
Q. Down there in the right-hand corner of the diagram?
A. Yes. This area right here is the ATF compliance office.
Q. What does the ATF compliance office do?
A. ATF compliance is the -- is the branch of our agency that
handles the licensing and compliance for alcohol, tobacco,
firearms, and explosive dealers.
Q. How many employees worked in that office in April of 1995?
A. There were three employees.
Q. Now, could you move over to the left and tell us about the
other ATF offices there.
A. This area over here, which is on the southeast corner of
the ninth floor, was the ATF law enforcement office.
If you would come off of the elevators down here,
which is the way we came up, proceed eastbound down the
hallway, coming down here to the entryway to our office.
Q. And whose office would you see as you walked in there?
A. Actually, this first area in here as you come into here --
I'm a little bit off with my pen here, but right into there is
our -- was basically the greeting area.
Directly through here was the office that was actually
an open-bay area that seated our secretary and office manager,
Valerie Rowden.
Q. And could you continue on. Who would you see next if you
walked through the office?
A. If you walked through the office, this office here was our
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supervisor's office, Alex McCauley. This office in here was a
coffee room and a fingerprinting room. We kept supplies and
whatnot in there.
As you would continue down the hall eastbound, this
was a conference room over here which just had a big conference
table in it.
This office right here would have been Special Agent
Donald Gillispie's office.
Continuing down the next office on the south side of
the building would have been Special Agent Mark Michalic and
Special Agent Harry Eberhardt's office.
Directly across from them in this area here was
Special Agent Darrell Edwards' office.
Continuing down the hall eastbound, this last office
down here actually held three: Special Agent Delbert Canopp,
Special Agent Karen Simpson, and Special Agent Tim Kelly.
Directly across from their office was my office.
Q. Now, tell us what's there in that last area that abuts the
wall.
A. The last area here is our evidence vault, this area here;
and this right here is our -- is the outside storage area,
outer vault, and also our computer -- our LAN system.
Q. Now, on this diagram we see that DEA and Secret Service
also had offices with the ATF on the ninth floor. Is that
right?
Luke Franey - Direct
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you know some of the people who worked in the DEA
office and the Secret Service office?
A. That is correct.
Q. How did that come about?
A. Well, in Oklahoma City, all the federal law enforcement
agencies are rather small. Most of them are outposts for their
agencies. We all worked on the ninth floor. Customs office
was down below us several floors; but we all worked together on
a daily basis. We socialized together, holiday parties and
whatnot.
Q. Did you work on investigations at times together?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did you get to know the staff of the DEA that was there
depicted on the ninth floor?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you get to know the Secret Service staff that had
offices on the ninth floor?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Agent Franey, let's turn to April 18, 1995, if we could.
Tell the jury what you and your fellow agents were doing on the
evening of April 18.
A. On the evening of April 18, 1995, myself and other agents
in the office were involved in an investigation with the Norman
Police Department on an individual who was a convicted felon
Luke Franey - Direct
that was involved in possession, sale, and transfer of machine
guns and narcotics.
We worked late into the evening of the 18th, actually
into the morning of the 19th till about 1:30 in the morning.
At that time, my supervisor, Alex McCauley, advised me, "We've
got enough evidence against this individual. You need to go
ahead and prepare an arrest warrant for him."
So early that morning, or late in the evening the 18th
or the 19th, I was under orders from my supervisor to prepare
an arrest warrant for Mr. Wolf. So I got home about 1:30 in
the morning on the 19th, got up early, and arrived at work on
the morning of the 19th about 7:30 a.m.
Q. You said you were working on an investigation in Norman,
Oklahoma. Could you tell the jury how far Norman is from
downtown Oklahoma City.
A. Norman is approximately 15 miles south of Oklahoma City.
Q. When you got into the office that morning, your purpose was
to draft this arrest warrant. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were there other people in the office that morning?
A. There were that came in after myself.
Q. Who else did you see that morning?
A. Actually, the first person that came in after me was our
office manager/secretary, Valerie Rowden. I never actually saw
her that morning till after the bombing. I heard her. She was
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actually surprised that someone was there before her. She's
usually there at 8:00; and we work such crazy hours, we're
usually not there at 8:00 in the morning. So when she came in,
she hollered back who was there. I said it was me, and she
started laughing that I was there that early.
But after her, my supervisor, Alex McCauley, came to
work and then Special Agent Harry Eberhardt; and I saw both of
them --
Q. Go ahead.
A. -- Eberhardt and McCauley in the office.
Q. Did you have a discussion with Agent Eberhardt that morning
before 9 a.m.?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did he leave the building?
A. Yeah. He came into my office and said that he was going
back over to Federal Courthouse, which was just south of the
Murrah Building. He was waiting for a jury to come back on an
arson trial. He advised me that he was going to stop at the
credit union on the way out to pick up some money and then head
over and wait on his jury.
Q. I want to show you a diagram here. Hold on one second.
This is Government's Exhibit 949, which I believe is already in
evidence.
Take your pen, and there in the middle is the Murrah
Building. Is that right?
Luke Franey - Direct
A. That's correct.
Q. You said that Agent Eberhardt was on his way to the Federal
Courthouse?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Can you show the jury how close the Federal Courthouse is
to the Murrah Building, please.
A. This would be the Federal Courthouse here. It is directly
south of the Murrah Building location. There was a plaza area
out through the back of the building and directly across the
street. I would say no more than a hundred yards.
Q. If you came down those elevators you were pointing out to
us earlier and walked right across the plaza, could you go
right across there? Is there anything blocking that entry to
the Federal Courthouse?
A. No, there is not; and actually the way we usually went
is -- there was a common parking lot underground between Murrah
Building and the Federal Courthouse, so most of the time we
would go down -- take the elevators down to the basement and
then walk across and come up from the basement of the
courthouse.
Q. Now, let's return to the morning of April 19. You said you
spoke to Agent Eberhardt and he left. Do you recall what you
were doing around 9 a.m. that morning?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What were you doing?
Luke Franey - Direct
A. I was talking on the telephone to another agent in our
office, Agent Darrell Edwards. He's one of my partners at
work. We work a lot of cases together. He had worked with me
late the night before.
Q. Do you know where he was when you were talking to him?
A. Yes, ma'am, I do.
Q. Where was he?
A. He was at his residence.
He is -- was shot in the line of duty several years
ago, and he has problems with his neck; and a lot of times he
needs to -- you know, he stays home and lays on ice packs,
especially if we're working late at night, sitting in cars and
things. It hurts him. So I called him right about 9:00 and
asked him where he was, kind of teasing him; and he said he was
laying on ice packs. And I said, Well, you need to come on in
because if I obtain this warrant, we're going to have to go
arrest Mr. Wolf.
Q. What happened next?
A. Sometime during that conversation with Agent Edwards, I
heard a loud explosion, a loud noise. I heard the girls in the
DEA office. My desk actually abutted up to a common wall with
DEA there. I heard them scream. I heard a loud roaring noise,
and then my office started coming apart.
Q. Did you recognize some of those voices of the women over in
DEA?
Luke Franey - Direct
A. I did prior to the explosion. You know, I heard Carrol
right across the way from me. She has a very distinctive
voice, and she was laughing and joking; and I couldn't hear
exactly what they were joking about, but just normal early-
in-the-morning cutting-up, you know, hollering back and forth.
Q. What happened to you during the explosion, Agent Franey?
A. First thing I remember is sitting at my desk hearing the
explosion, hearing the screams and hearing the roar sounding
like a locomotive coming through the building. It startled me.
I had no idea it was. I remember looking up and seeing the
ceiling and the light fixture falling and throwing up my arm to
try to block that. And the next thing I remember is just
getting hit with -- I assume the blast pressure, loud -- or
very strong burst of wind.
And I remember pushing back from the desk; and the
next thing I remember is being on the floor, kind of halfway in
the hallway and halfway in the office opposite from the south
side from my office.
Q. Do you have any idea whether you were unconscious for any
period of time?
A. You know, I believe I was. I don't know for sure. The
reason -- you know, I have talked to our secretary, Valerie,
who was in the office as well when the explosion occurred; and
she was on the opposite side of the office. And after the
explosion, she said she screamed and screamed for me to come
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get her. She was scared, wanted me to help her out of the
office; and I don't remember any of that. I don't remember
anything hearing for a while. You know, once I come to, or I
realized that I'm on the floor, I started yelling to her and
got no response.
Now, she was already able to get herself out of the
building and down on the floor (sic) before I even remember
anybody calling.
Q. What did you do when you got yourself up off the floor?
A. The first thing I did is just look around. I mean, I
couldn't -- I didn't know what had happened. I was confused.
I think I was dazed. I -- first thing that I can remember is
getting up trying to get out of the building. I was able to
stand up; and as I was turning to go down the hallway opposite
the way I do when I was coming in, I could go just a short
distance and then the floor was sheared off, down, from, I
guess, the explosion. You could see all the way down to the
pile of rubble down there.
Q. I take it, then, you couldn't walk in that direction and
get out of the building?
A. No, ma'am, I could not.
Q. What else did you see?
A. I was looking around at that point. I could see out of the
front of the building where the front part of the building used
to be. I could see across into the parking lot across the
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street. I distinctly remember a huge wall of flame, orange
flame shooting out of the Athenian Building. I remember big
clouds of black smoke pouring into the building, hearing car
alarms going off, hearing -- seeing cars on fire in the parking
lot.
Q. Now, you said you saw a fire coming out of the Athenian.
Can you look at Government's Exhibit 973. Do you recognize
that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Does that depict what you've just described?
A. It looks very similar. Obviously, at that time my view was
nine stories up. I believe that photograph is from a street
level, but that is very similar.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer 973.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 973.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Franey, tell the jury -- the jurors what building
they're looking at that's back there in the back of this
photograph.
A. That, I believe, is the Athenian Building, the Water
Resources building; and then the other building in the far
background, I believe, is the apartment building that was
northeast -- or northwest of the --
Q. Is that the Regency Towers?
Luke Franey - Direct
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, here in the front there is a fire. That is what
you're talking about near the area of the Athenian Building?
A. That was in the general area where I saw it. At the time
that I saw it, it was much larger.
Q. Did you see cars on fire in the parking lot at that time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you see any firefighters or rescue workers attempting
to put out those fires at that time?
A. Not at that time, no, I did not.
Q. Now, what did you do after you looked out and saw this
scene?
A. I was actually kind of confused at that time. I had -- I
didn't know what had happened. Obviously, something terrible.
I mean, I didn't know whether it was a natural-gas explosion,
or a bombing, or what. I had no idea.
At that point, I started looking around the office to
see what was left, and I mean it just looked like -- you know,
like a tornado or something had come through there. The
ceiling was gone, the walls were gone, everything was hanging
down. Things were blown all over. Just, you couldn't even
really recognize it.
I remember thinking I need to get on the radio. We
need help. Obviously, I could hear people screaming and crying
for help and whatnot.
Luke Franey - Direct
I remember seeing one of our handheld radios that we
use when we're in the field. And I picked it up and turned it
on to the car-to-car frequency, meaning that you have a
repeater that you can use that's usually on top of the building
or somewhere, and you can reach for long distances; but with
the handheld radio, they were very limited in their distance.
And I turned that on to the car-to-car frequency and started
calling for help on the radio.
Q. Did anyone respond?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Who responded to you?
A. Agent Michalic. He was at the point where he was a little
bit far out where we couldn't get very good communications. I
could hear him sometimes and he could hear me sometimes, but we
couldn't have a steady conversation; and I just remember
saying, "You guys need to get in here. There has been an
explosion at the building. There is people hurt."
And other agents started coming on the air saying what
was wrong, what's going on. And I was trying to explain to
them the situation, tell them they needed to come downtown.
Q. At some point, did you find a tape recorder?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do with that?
A. Throughout the morning there, the time that I was in the
building, I had done several different things; and I remember
Luke Franey - Direct
finding the tape recorder there in the rubble. And I remember
back to the academy when they said that if you're conducting a
post-blast investigation, when you're interviewing witnesses,
it's very important if you can determine what color flame or
what color smoke was seen after the explosion.
And I don't know why I thought of that. I have no
idea. They say you revert to your training sometimes in
stressful situations. I just remember that, and I picked that
up and started documenting those things and to the best of my
recollection what happened that morning at times and what I was
doing and what I saw.
Q. Were you totally calm and able to do that in the best way
possible at that point?
A. I guess, you know, at the time I -- it just seemed crazy.
I felt like I was in a daze, felt like I had been in a boxing
match, really not sure what's going on. When I listened to it
later, it is kind of eerie, you know.
Q. At some point did you attempt to look out the back windows
of the south side of the Murrah Building?
A. That was the area that I could actually get around to
fairly easily. I had view out of the southeast corner of the
building. You know, I kind of had a little island of area
there of about three offices. Agent Eberhardt and
Michalic's -- the big office that had the three agents in it
and then my office and a little bit of Agent Edwards' office
Luke Franey - Direct
there, so about three-and-a-half offices I could get around in.
But the farther you got out to the front of the
building, the floor would shake; and from talking on the radio
to the agents, they're saying, "Stay away from that area."
Q. Could you get into the evidence room?
A. Yes, I did. At one time I did get in there, because I
remember hearing the girls from DEA screaming. I was thinking
about that. At that time, I had no idea how bad it was. And I
remember, well, maybe I can get over there. If they're still
there, I can help them. They might need help.
So I went to our outer evidence vault and climbed over
the cage in through the ceiling. You know, the ceiling was
broken. There were pipes hanging down; so I was able to grab
onto a pipe and come over the top into the evidence vault.
I went to the back of our evidence vault, the back
wall, which was another common wall with DEA; and I kicked the
shelves down and kicked a hole into the DEA office through the
wall, what was left of the DEA office. When I got over there,
I was really surprised that the whole front, the whole office
basically or the majority of the DEA office was just gone,
and --
Q. Did you find the ladies who were screaming?
A. No. No. You know, I looked around and I looked under what
rubble there was and called out verbally to try to get a
response. And I think at that point right there is when it
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really hit that he -- that they weren't there; that they were
probably down in the rubble pile.
Q. I take it, then, you couldn't get out of the building going
forward, either?
A. No, no. I was really -- I just -- in a small area back
there that I was able to move around fairly freely in, but it
was -- I couldn't get westbound into the other part of the
building because the floor was gone. There was a big crevice,
and there wasn't much on the front part of the building to go
to.
Q. Tell the jury what you did when you went back to the
windows.
A. I went back to the windows; and I was able to see, you
know -- By that time, you know, A lot of people were coming to
the building to help. There were a lot of people from the