The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Tuesday, November 18, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 80)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:32 p.m., on the 18th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, SEAN CONNELLY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY
MEARNS, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, REID
NEUREITER, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln
Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for
Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:32 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 1:32 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please resume the stand, Mr. Moore.
(Roger Moore was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: Miss Wilkinson.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Moore.
A. Hi.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. Before lunch, you were telling us about reporting the loss
of your property from November 5, 1994; is that right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. I'm not sure that I spoke clearly each time I asked you the
questions about the firearms, but were all those firearms
stolen on November 5, 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. So I would have been wrong if I said November 4; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after the robbery, did the police ask you to come up
with the names of people who had visited your property?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you provide those names to the sheriff's office?
A. To the detective in charge of investigation.
Q. And is he a member of the sheriff's department?
A. Yes.
Q. And whose name did you provide at the top of your list?
A. Timothy McVeigh.
Q. And had Timothy McVeigh visited your home?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember on how many occasions?
A. Three.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. Do you remember when you first met him?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. January '93 in Florida. Ft. Lauderdale.
Q. Where in Ft. Lauderdale did you meet him?
A. At a gun show on -- at the armory.
Q. What did you notice about him when you first saw him?
A. He was dressed as if he was going to a military parade in
his Desert Storm outfit.
Q. He was wearing --
A. Desert Storm.
Q. -- camouflage fatigues?
A. Desert Storm cameo.
Q. A sand color?
A. Yes.
Q. What else was he wearing?
A. His polished boots.
Q. Did you see anybody else dressed that like that at the gun
show?
A. No.
Q. Did you speak to him that day?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you make arrangements to see him at another gun
show?
A. Later that day, I asked him where he was going, and he said
Roger Moore - Direct
to Dinner Key, and I said, "Would you share a table?"
Q. Is Dinner Key another gun show?
A. Yes.
Q. In Florida?
A. South Florida.
Q. And how long was it after the first gun show in
January 1993 when you met Mr. McVeigh?
A. One month.
Q. Did you share a table with him at that second gun show?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you talk to him during that gun show?
A. Some.
Q. Did you notice during those first two gun shows what
Mr. McVeigh was selling?
A. T-shirts, canteens, duffel bags, couple of sleeping bags,
and a pile of Turner Diaries.
Q. Turner Diaries, is that a book?
A. Yes.
Q. And he had several of them?
A. Six or seven.
Q. Now, the second gun show where you shared the table with
Mr. McVeigh, was that also in January of 1993?
A. First week in April -- I mean, excuse me, first week in
February.
Q. First week in February. Did you and Mr. McVeigh get along
Roger Moore - Direct
well at that point?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make plans to see each other again?
A. Not to the degree of plans. I told him that if he was
going west, the next best gun show that he could go to, the
biggest, was Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Q. Did you tell him that you would be there?
A. Probably.
Q. Did you tell him about Karen Anderson?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you go to the gun show in Tulsa in the spring of
1993?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see Mr. McVeigh there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And during that time, did you have discussions with him at
the Tulsa gun show?
A. Limited.
Q. Do you remember when the Tulsa gun show was in 1993?
A. It's usually the first weekend in April.
Q. Now, in 1993, do you recall the siege at Waco?
A. Kind of.
Q. All right. Do you recall when the fire was at Waco?
A. The 19th.
Q. Of April?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Of 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see Mr. McVeigh at the gun show in Tulsa before
that date, April 19, 1993?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Moore, did you hear my question? Did you see
Mr. McVeigh -- was the Tulsa gun show before the fire at Waco?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. If you don't understand my question, please ask
me --
A. I'm sorry.
Q. -- to repeat it. So you said the gun show in Tulsa was
during the first weekend of April of 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. You talked to Mr. McVeigh there?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time had you become interested in something known
as the New World Order?
A. To a degree, yes.
Q. What had you done at that time?
A. At that time very little.
Q. Had you read any books about it?
A. One.
Q. All right. Were you concerned about it at that time?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. Somewhat.
Q. Did you discuss the New World -- New World Order with
Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he interested in that?
A. More than I was.
Q. Do you recall in general what he said about the New World
Order?
A. He thought it was a U.N. takeover of the United States,
basically a U.N. takeover of the entire world, one currency, a
one-world government, a one-police-force government.
Q. Did you and Mr. McVeigh discuss whether there was any
foreign military equipment on U.S. military bases?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he concerned about that?
A. Very much so.
Q. Did you want to look into that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that in the summer of 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after the Tulsa gun show in April of 1993, did
Mr. McVeigh come to your home?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did he stay?
A. Approximately a week and a half.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. Did he come right after the Tulsa gun show?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when he was there, did you speak to him?
A. Certainly.
Q. Did you talk about politics?
A. To some degree; not too much at that point. Talked about
Waco most of the time.
Q. Okay. Again, were these discussions before the fire?
A. Yes. He'd been to Waco.
Q. At that point he had already been to Waco?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he tell you what he had seen at Waco at that point?
A. Well, he was back with the -- as far back as they pushed
them, 2 miles back, you couldn't see too much. But he was
extremely upset about it.
Q. Did he tell you what he saw? Were there agents surrounding
the compound?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he upset about that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, during this visit in early April of 1993, did you talk
to him about firearms?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he interested in guns?
A. Tremendously.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. How do you know that?
A. He read every gun magazine that I had in the house.
Q. And did you discuss your firearms with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Only to a limited degree and basically on calibers.
Q. You did not show him your gun collection?
A. No.
Q. Now, what other type of things did you discuss with
Mr. McVeigh in early April of 1993 when he was at your home?
A. What he was going to do when he left and which way he was
going and what he wanted -- what he actually wanted to see of
the West.
Q. What did he say?
A. He was going out West and then work his way up to Oregon,
Washington, and then make a loop and go back to New York.
Q. Did he ever mention to you anything the government had done
to him?
A. He indicated that he thought there was a very good
possibility that when he got inoculated in Arabia that they had
put a glass -- tiny glass transistor in his posterior.
Q. He told you that during that visit?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he concerned about that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, during his visit in early April of 1993, did he have
access to your home?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. More than likely.
Q. And did you ever stop him from going into rooms that he
wanted to go into?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell him at that point that you and Miss Anderson
were going to go to military bases that summer?
A. I can't answer that question. I don't know.
Q. Could you have told him that?
A. I could have.
Q. And would you have shared that information with him?
MR. TIGAR: Object to speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, during that visit, did you discuss the security of
your property with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Very -- quite a bit.
Q. What did you discuss with him?
A. How to best use anything that was on the market to get more
security so that somebody couldn't just walk on.
Q. Did you walk your property with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Complete perimeter.
Q. Did you get advice from him about the security of your
property?
A. Not really. Because it's a very difficult situation.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. If the witness is
Roger Moore - Direct
consulting a writing during the testimony, we'd like to see it.
MS. WILKINSON: I think it's a nervous habit.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Are you looking at a document in your hand?
A. I'm looking at the gun list.
Q. Why don't you just turn it over.
MR. TIGAR: Pardon me, your Honor. I didn't know what
it was.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: I'm not looking at it. I was just
holding it.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Moore, when you were talking to Mr. McVeigh about
security, did you take any measures to establish more security
for your property at that time?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell Mr. McVeigh that you had no security devices
to your property?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did there come a point when Mr. McVeigh left?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall why he left?
A. He seemed antsy, and I got the impression that we were too
laid-back and easygoing with the animals and it just wasn't
fast enough for him.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. Did he tell you where he was going?
A. Kingman.
Q. Now, did you exchange any letters with Mr. McVeigh after
that visit in early spring of 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he write you any letters after the fire at Waco?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall him discussing the fire at Waco in those
letters?
A. Yes.
Q. In substance, what did he say to you?
A. He was very upset. More so than before.
Q. Did you see him again in 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. Soldier of Fortune convention in the third week of
September.
Q. Soldier of Fortune convention. Where is that located?
A. Las Vegas, Nevada.
Q. Is that where it's held every year?
A. Every year.
Q. And were you there to sell ammunition?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Miss Anderson with you?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. When did you see Mr. McVeigh at that convention?
A. On Friday.
Q. Now, before you had -- between your visit with Mr. McVeigh
at your property and seeing him at this Soldier of Fortune
convention in the fall of 1993, had you and Miss Anderson gone
out to look at military bases?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you look for foreign military equipment?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find anything?
A. No.
Q. Did you become more or less interested in the New World
Order after that?
A. Less.
Q. Now, when you saw Mr. McVeigh at the Soldier of Fortune
convention, did you talk to him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you talk about?
A. Not too much because he wasn't around much.
Q. All right. Did you tell him about your trip to the
military bases?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he tell you about his interest in the New World
Order at that time?
A. He was more interested.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. More interested?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you -- did he discuss with you the fire at Waco in the
fall of 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his demeanor when he discussed that with you?
A. Bright, flashing eyes.
Q. Now, did you and Mr. McVeigh have some argument during that
Soldier of Fortune convention in the fall of 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your argument about?
A. He seemed to be settled on a word of "patriot," and there's
many people in that particular convention. And at that
convention they hand out a piece of paper that said, "These are
not subjects to discuss, and it's a non-political convention."
And there was a gentleman at the corner of the table that had a
badge on his belt, partially hidden by his jacket, but it was
still -- I could see it.
Q. Did it look like a law-enforcement badge?
A. It was a law-enforcement badge.
Q. What happened?
A. I finished talking with him; and in the last sentence that
he gave me, the word "patriot" was in it. And McVeigh walked
up at the time just exactly in time to hear that. When the man
walked away, he followed the man and got hold of him by the arm
Roger Moore - Direct
and he started talking to him.
Q. Could you hear him talking to that law-enforcement agent?
A. No. He was about 15 feet away.
Q. Did he return to your table?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened?
A. I told him not to do that, I could get kicked out of the
show; and if I once got kicked out, I'd never be able to get
back in.
Q. Now, do you recall whether that sheet -- or that conduct
sheet that you received from the Soldier of Fortune gun show,
whether it specifically prohibited the use of the word
"patriot"?
A. It did not.
Q. Then why were you so angry at Mr. McVeigh?
A. They didn't not want political discussion of any kind at
that show.
Q. What was your concern about your ammunition business at
that time?
A. I didn't want to get kicked out of the show.
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh's reaction to you when you talked to
him about his confrontation or discussion with the
law-enforcement agent about the word "patriot"?
A. He got in my face like a top sergeant and raised his voice,
and I raised my voice.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. You raised your voice?
A. Yes.
Q. And what happened?
A. We were asked to leave the booth.
Q. Who asked you to leave the booth?
A. The lady that was there.
Q. Did you leave?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you and Mr. McVeigh exchange additional words?
A. We calmed down and went over to the refreshment area.
Q. Did you see him again after that point? At the gun show --
excuse me, at the Soldier of Fortune convention?
A. Only at the end.
Q. What happened at the end?
A. He gathered up his stuff and was going to come back over to
the motel, and I asked him -- I told him that I couldn't -- I
could no longer let him bunk into the motel like I did the
previous night.
Q. Now, did you see him again then at the Soldier of Fortune
convention --
A. No.
Q. -- in the fall of 1993?
A. No.
Q. Did you see him again in 1993 at another gun show?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. When was that?
A. Two weeks later at Knob Creek, which is West Point,
Kentucky, 20 miles south of Louisville, Kentucky.
Q. Is that the machine-gun shoot that's held there?
A. Yes.
Q. When would that have been?
A. First week in October.
Q. Of which year?
A. '93.
Q. Okay. Were you able to speak to him at that point?
A. 10 or 15 minutes.
Q. Did you have any substantive discussions about any of the
issues that you had raised --
A. No.
Q. -- at the Soldier of Fortune convention?
A. No.
Q. Did you spend any significant time with him at the Knob
Creek machine-gun shoot?
A. No.
Q. Now, after that time, did he write you any letters, after
October of 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the content of any of those letters?
A. Not of any significance.
Q. Now, I want to ask you when was the next time that you
Roger Moore - Direct
personally saw Mr. McVeigh again after October of 1993.
A. April -- between April and May of '94.
Q. Had he called in advance to tell you he was coming?
A. No.
Q. What happened?
A. Just showed up at the door and knocked.
Q. How long did he stay?
A. Overnight.
Q. Now, you let him stay at your house even though you had had
this argument in the fall?
A. Pretty hard to kick somebody out when they knock on your
door.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh tell you where he was going after he left
your home?
A. He said he was going to Saucier, Mississippi, and look at
the 300 U.N. vehicles that were down there. And then from
there, he was going to Avon Park, which is another base that's
kind of out of the way in central Florida, and then he was
going to go to his sister's and work as a electrical assistant
to get money for traveling again.
Q. At any time during your conversations with Mr. McVeigh, did
he tell you that he was going to Michigan?
A. Yes. This was before that.
Q. What did he say?
A. He never said he was going to Michigan. He wrote a letter
Roger Moore - Direct
saying he had gone to Michigan.
Q. Did he say why he was going to Michigan -- why he had gone
to Michigan?
A. No.
Q. Now, in the spring of 1994 when Mr. McVeigh stayed with
you, did you get into another argument with him?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall talking to him about some type of launcher
system or rocket-flare system you had developed?
A. I made a comment.
Q. What did you say?
A. I didn't appreciate him stealing the idea.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh leave shortly after that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he ever come back to your house again after that?
A. No.
Q. Now, that was sometime you said in the spring of 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. After that point, did he write you any letters?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, between that time -- that is, April of 1994 or April
or May of 1994 -- and the robbery date, November 5, 1994, did
you receive any letters from Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the content of those letters?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. The only letter I can remember the contents of was the one
where he said he was in New York --
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we have a date and some
details as to whether the writing is in existence?
THE COURT: Yes, we ought to have a foundation for the
absence of the letter.
MS. WILKINSON: Sure.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Do you recall when you received the letter?
A. No, I do not.
Q. What did you do with the letter after you read it? Do you
recall?
A. No.
Q. Did you keep all of the letters that Mr. McVeigh --
A. No.
Q. -- sent you?
A. No, we did not.
Q. Now, tell us what Mr. McVeigh wrote you about during that
time period.
A. He wrote about a black Ford following him on an interstate
up in Illinois -- up in New York and that eventually they
knocked him off the highway and wrecked his car.
Q. Now, let's move to November 5, 1994. After the robbery on
that date, you said you gave the sheriff's office Mr. McVeigh's
name?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Did you try and contact Mr. McVeigh, yourself?
A. Several weeks later, when I wrote him about the robbery.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. I figured he ought to know, and I figured he might be able
to help.
Q. At that time did you suspect his involvement?
A. It was possible.
Q. Why is that?
A. Well, they suggested to give them a list of anybody that
had been in the house in the last two years. We gave them
three names. He was the only one we couldn't find and had no
phone number for.
Q. Now, when you wrote him, did you -- did you keep a copy of
the letter you wrote him to tell him about the robbery?
A. You mean make a copy?
Q. Yeah.
A. No.
Q. Do you remember when you wrote it? The first letter you
wrote him about the robbery?
A. Late November, early December.
Q. And did you give him any of the details of the robbery?
A. Not the type of detail we're talking about that we give the
sheriff's office.
Q. All right. Did you invite him back to your property?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. No.
Q. Not in that letter?
A. Not in that letter.
Q. Did you ever invite him back to your property?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. The more we looked into it and the more we talked to
people, the more I decided that if he was involved and we could
get him back to the property, that Karen and I could stare him
down and he would eventually blink and we could find out
whether he was in on it.
Q. Well, while you were investigating the -- his potential
involvement, did you also investigate the potential involvement
of other people?
A. Everywhere we could find help.
Q. And did you sometimes come across leads about potential --
other robberies?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you interested in pursuing those leads?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever discuss a plan to capture the robbers?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that plan?
A. Three of the different people that we ran across in -- that
had been robbed in '94 offered substantial rewards, totaling a
Roger Moore - Direct
hundred thousand dollars. And I wrote McVeigh, since he's
always needing money, and I said, "If you'd come back here and
solve these, you'd have a hundred thousand dollars."
Q. So you shared with him the plan to try and capture the
robbers?
A. Right.
Q. And did he agree to come back?
A. In his last letter, he said he would come back in May.
Q. But he never appeared before April 19, 1995?
A. No.
Q. Now, did you write to Mr. McVeigh again sometime in the
spring of 1995?
A. We received his last letter in mid March; and just before
going to Knob Creek, which is the second weekend in April, I
wrote him back.
Q. Did you keep a copy of the letter that Mr. McVeigh wrote
you in mid March of 1995?
A. No.
Q. In that letter, did he ask you certain questions?
A. Yes.
Q. And in your letter back to him, did you respond to some of
those questions?
A. Some of them.
Q. When you wrote that letter in April of 1995, do you recall
when you wrote it?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. On Wednesday on the way out of town to Knob -- to
Louisville, Kentucky.
Q. And do you recall the date or approximate date of the gun
show that you were going to attend that year in 1995?
A. It would be the -- I'd have to look at a calendar. It
would be the second Wednesday.
Q. So if April 19 were the third Wednesday, it would have been
seven days before that, April 12?
A. Yes.
Q. You wrote the letter on April 12, 1995?
A. If it was a Wednesday.
Q. Okay. And when did you mail the letter?
A. On the way out of town.
Q. And do you recall preparing that letter?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall how you responded to Mr. McVeigh's
questions?
A. To some degree.
Q. Okay. What was your purpose in writing that letter?
A. Politeness and also to get him to come back.
Q. Did you discuss with him in that letter things that you
thought he was interested in?
A. Yes.
Q. What type of things?
A. New World Order.
Roger Moore - Direct
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, if the letter is in
existence --
MS. WILKINSON: We're going to put in. I'm just
laying the foundation. I'm about to offer it.
THE COURT: I thought the witness said he didn't have
it.
MS. WILKINSON: He didn't have it, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, if the letter's in existence, let's
deal with it.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. To what address did you mail the letter?
A. Kingman, Arizona.
Q. Take a look at Government's Exhibit 2104, please,
Mr. Moore.
Do you recognize that letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you write that letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that your handwriting?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you address it to Tim?
A. Yes. Tim Tuttle.
Q. How did you sign that letter?
A. Bob.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers Exhibit 2104, your
Roger Moore - Direct
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 2104 is received.
MS. WILKINSON: We would like to publish it.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Moore, would it be fair to say that you don't have the
neatest handwriting?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you read this letter to the jury, and let's start
with the first line.
THE COURT: I don't see it on the screen.
MS. WILKINSON: There it is.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: "Tim: I'm writing you this letter and
answering it question for question."
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Moore, does it say "writing" or "reading"?
A. "Reading," excuse me.
Q. Could you read that line again.
A. "Tim: I'm reading your letter and answering it question
for question."
Q. Are you referring to the questions that Mr. McVeigh asked
you in his previous letter?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. Okay. Can you read the next line.
A. "No. 1, since the robbery, we are phasing out of this
activity."
Q. What do you mean by "this activity"?
A. We're getting out of the business.
Q. What business?
A. The ammunition business.
Q. All right. And can you read the next line.
A. Yes.
Q. The next phrase.
A. "No. 2: Since November election, mail order is off
80 percent and some shows are off 50 to 75 percent. All
dealers are getting creamed, no more money."
Q. And was that your -- just your interpretation of what had
happened to your business since the election?
A. No, that's an interpretation of everybody I know around the
country in the business.
Q. Okay. Read the next line, please.
A. "See what the NWO has done to our dollar, 83 yen from 144
in two years."
Q. Now, NWO, what does that stand for?
A. New World Order.
Q. Okay. "83 yen from 144 two years" -- does that say "ago"?
A. "Ago."
Q. Read the next line, please.
Roger Moore - Direct
A. "Plan is to bring down country and have a few more things
happen. Then offer the 90 percent solution." And then "Better
red than dead."
Q. Okay. Let's go back. It says, "Plan is to bring the
country down"?
A. Yes.
Q. What plan are you talking about?
A. The United Nations' plan, or whatever plan it is that the
government -- that this New World Order has.
Q. Okay. "And have a few more things happen," what did you
mean by that?
A. Well, Trade Center bombing, anything. Three or four things
that would scare the heck out of the people in the country,
they'd accept any kind of a compromise.
Q. All right. And then the next line, "They offer the
90 percent solution, better red than dead," what did you mean
by that?
A. That's a standard buzzword in any book that you read
anywhere on that type of subject.
Q. Meaning on the standard buzzwords for New World Order?
A. No. "Better red than dead."
Q. But here what are you discussing?
A. Things that I thought he'd like to hear.
Q. Now, go down to the next line, please, and read that for
the jury.
Roger Moore - Direct
A. "Please remember I have a few more years of experience plus
seven in Air Force and 40 years of shooting."
Q. Is that self-explanatory?
A. Yes.
Q. What does the next line say?
A. "Not much product to build, no sales."
Q. What are you talking about there?
A. There's nothing really to bag up and get ready to go to a
show with because what inventory we had on hand would probably
last six months.
Q. Meaning your ammunition inventory?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, read the next line to the jury, please.
A. "This is the only cause, but the important thing is to be
as effective as possible."
Q. What did you mean by "the only cause"?
A. Educate people and get pamphlets and brochures and
magazines out to as many people as possible.
Q. Educate them about what?
A. The New World Order.
Q. Is that referring to the same plan up here that you talked
about with the New World Order?
A. Yes.
Q. And had you discussed that with Mr. McVeigh in the past?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. And you knew he was -- did you know whether he was
interested in that?
A. You mean in getting out brochures and pamphlets?
Q. Or interested in the whole -- educating people on the plan,
yes.
A. He'd been trying.
Q. Now, can you read the next line.
A. "I know of no people that are interested in this plan."
Q. Which plan are you talking about?
A. The reward plan.
Q. All right. Read the next line, please.
A. "Even Special Forces people probably wouldn't tell us as
the attitude of trust is mostly gone."
Q. What did you mean by that?
A. They're kind of a tight-lipped, high-echelon organization;
and he wanted to know if he could get information from Special
Forces people, and I said I don't think so.
Q. What type of information did he want to get from Special
Forces people?
A. Something that might help him run down the robbers and come
up with a reward.
Q. All right. Can you read the next line, please.
A. "After all this time, I can't believe you'd say I drive you
batty as I've calmed down and you are getting more hyper."
Q. Is that self-explanatory?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. I would say so.
Q. Now, the next line, you say, "We must track down the
robbers"; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you underline "must"?
A. Yes.
Q. Read that sentence to the jury, please.
A. "We must track down the robbers to know where and who saw
and took certain stuff and also be able to determine how far
the security has been compromised."
Q. What were you referring to there?
A. The farm.
Q. The robbery of the farm?
A. Yes.
Q. Read the next line.
A. "Got two super leads at the Tulsa gun show last week."
Q. What two leads are you referring to?
A. Robbery leads.
Q. Read the next line, please.
A. "Even if I wanted to," I don't -- "I didn't have several
problems that you don't know about, I can't write on."
Q. What problems were you referring to?
A. One is Karen was not interested in me getting in on a
robbery plan, running around the country with him trying to do
that. She thought it was too dangerous. The other was my
Roger Moore - Direct
health.
Q. When you say "a robbery plan," what do you mean by -- do
you mean actually conducting robberies or looking for the
robbers?
A. Looking for the robbers.
Q. She didn't want you out there --
A. Undercover work.
Q. Read the next sentence, please.
A. "Karen is not interested in the slightest at this point."
Q. What are you referring to there?
A. Basically the first -- the sentence above.
Q. Meaning your plan to capture the robbers?
A. Right.
Q. Read the next sentence, please.
A. "While I was gone to Florida this winter, she met couple of
Special Forces Vietnam long-range reconnaissance, and they have
convinced her -- they have her convinced to put it out of her
mind and have fun."
Q. Had you discussed with Miss Anderson some Special Forces
people she had met while you were away?
A. Yes.
Q. And did she share with you her views on this plan you had
to capture the robbers?
A. Yes.
Q. What did she tell you?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. She thought we ought to just forget about it, earn the
money on the stock market, and wipe it out.
Q. Now, read the next line for the jury.
A. "I personally think each time you were -- you were here
that you got the wrong impression."
Q. Next line.
A. "I'm the serious patriot, and Karen is not interested."
Q. What did you mean when you said "I'm the serious patriot"?
A. I was trying -- he always liked her better and got along
with her better, and we always had friction, and I was trying
to reverse the situation.
Q. Why did you say you were a serious patriot?
A. I thought he'd like that.
Q. Now, starting with "Karen is not interested," could you
read that again and go on to the next line.
A. Are we going back up?
Q. No. You read "I'm a serious patriot"; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you just start from there?
A. "Karen is not interested in risks, etc. She's even pissed
at me for taking night-vision photos and sending them to
right-wing magazines."
Q. Did you ever take pictures with night-vision goggles and
send them to right-wing magazines?
A. Camera equipment.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. Pardon?
A. Night-vision camera equipment.
Q. Did you?
A. I've never owned them.
Q. Why did you say this in this letter?
A. I thought he'd like to hear it.
Q. Did you discuss with him looking for vehicles and that type
of equipment?
A. With that type of equipment.
Q. Not with that type of equipment, but foreign military?
A. Yes.
Q. But you never took photographs and sent them to right-wing
magazines?
A. I didn't have the equipment.
Q. Did you ever take pictures at all at military bases?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever take pictures and share them with other people
of issues related to the New World Order?
A. No.
Q. Now, can you read the next line?
A. Anyone -- "Anyway, watch out for the radiation, virus spray
and all other type of electron, electron mind-altering
devices."
Q. Had you ever discussed with Mr. McVeigh, radiation, virus
spray, and all other type of electron mind-altering devices?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. I listened to what he had to say about it.
Q. Did he talk about all of those items?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you put this in this letter?
A. I wanted to be -- look like I was on his side if that was
the only way I was going to get him back to Arkansas.
Q. Read the next line, please.
A. "You need some space blankets to keep out of satellites'
eyes."
Q. What was that a reference to, Mr. Moore?
A. That's a common-knowledge thing, that a space blanket, if
you cover yourself with it, heat-imaging equipment can't find
you.
Q. And did you discuss that with Mr. McVeigh previous to this
letter?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the purpose of that?
A. He knew that from Desert Storm.
Q. Why did you discuss it with him?
A. I wanted to know about it.
Q. Read the last line, please.
A. "Let's let May go. If you want -- if you want . . . write
when you move" and have news -- "or have news."
Q. And you signed it, "My best, Bob"?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Direct
Q. And over there on the left, did you write "burn" on there?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you write that?
A. He always writes that on his.
Q. Now, you said, "Let's let May go." What was that a
reference to?
A. His last letter, he said something about coming in May.
Q. Did you want him to come in May?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you want him to come in May?
A. We're too -- Karen and I are too busy getting the farm back
from the winter ravages, and she has shows to go to; and I
didn't want him there when I was by myself.
Q. Why was that?
A. I wouldn't be -- I couldn't handle staring him down. I
thought needed two of us.
Q. Now, in this letter, Mr. Moore, did you ever intend to
refer to any plan to bomb the Murrah Building?
A. No.
Q. Now, when you saw the robber on November 5, 1994, could you
tell whether it was Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. How could you tell?
A. He's easy to spot.
Q. Was it Timothy McVeigh?
Roger Moore - Direct
A. No.
Q. Why wasn't it?
A. He wasn't 6' 2". He wasn't light-complected like an Irish
person, and he wasn't slender.
Q. Would you have rec -- did you recognize Mr. McVeigh's
voice?
A. Would I?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And did the robber's voice sound anything like Timothy
McVeigh's voice?
A. No.
Q. So you never believed Mr. McVeigh was the man who held a
shotgun to you; is that right?
A. Absolutely not.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Moore.
A. How do you do.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers appointed
to help out Terry Nichols.
A. I understand.
Q. You first met Mr. McVeigh at a gun show in Ft. Lauderdale;
Roger Moore - Cross
is that correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. And he had -- he was dressed in full Desert Storm uniform;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it your understanding that he was no longer in the
military?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it unusual for veterans to dress up in their full parade
uniform at gun shows?
A. I don't know the law on that.
Q. Not whether it's legal or not, but is it unusual, in your
experience, to see people manning tables or personning tables,
I guess we should say --
A. In full uniforms?
Q. Yes, full.
A. It's not at the Soldier of Fortune.
Q. Now, you talked about the Soldier of Fortune. What is the
Soldier of Fortune show in Las Vegas?
A. It's a -- basically a combination parts show, trade show.
Most of the new manufacturers from the United States are there,
with booths, big booths: Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Winchester,
Colt, and the rest of them. Some foreign. This time we had
one from Brazil. We've had them from Israel. And then there's
smaller tables where people have used -- there's ammunition
Roger Moore - Cross
tables where they have also used collectors' items like
90-millimeter casings. A lot of collectors and different odds
and ends. And then usually at the back of the show they have a
military-vehicle display, which is put on by the Arizona
Military Vehicles Collectors Association.
Q. And what does the term Soldier of Fortune refer to?
A. Probably a merc.
Q. What's a merc?
A. Mercenary.
Q. And are there discussions at this show of becoming a
mercenary or how to be one?
A. No.
Q. Is there literature available at these shows about how to
be a mercenary?
A. No.
Q. And that was what you told us earlier, that discussion of
politics is discouraged?
A. Right.
Q. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Even though discussion of politics is discouraged, would it
be fair to say that those attending have a certain political
view, predominantly?
A. More than 50 percent?
Q. Sure.
Roger Moore - Cross
A. No.
Q. Now, when you saw Mr. McVeigh there in Ft. Lauderdale, you
bought some things from him; correct?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And how long was it that you spoke to him before you asked
him if you could share a table at the Dinner Key show?
A. I didn't ask him that the first time.
Q. This was the second time you came back?
A. It's a small show. You walk around it three or four times
before you leave so that you don't miss something.
Q. So on your second time at Mr. McVeigh's table, you asked
him that; is that correct?
A. No, I asked him where he was going next. He said Dinner
Key in Miami.
Q. And then when did you ask him about sharing a table?
A. I said, "How did you get a table there?"
He said, "I rented it a long time ago." That's a
difficult show to get in.
Q. That was my next question. Why is that a difficult show to
get into?
A. Because it's a show down in the Cuban area, and a lot of
people go to that show, and it's limited space.
Q. Now, you had lived in Florida for many years; correct?
A. Right.
Q. You had five boat businesses; right?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Right.
Q. And so you're pretty well-known businessman in the Florida
community; correct?
A. I wouldn't say that. I tried to keep a low profile, and I
worked 90 hours a week, so I didn't know anything but the
suppliers.
Q. And so you were -- were you surprised that this young
soldier had been able to get a table at the Dinner Key gun
show?
A. Yes.
Q. And you asked him if he would share it with you?
A. Yes, I did. I said, "If you have any space, could I borrow
half a table?"
Q. Why did you select him to share space with?
A. I didn't know anybody else that had a table.
Q. What was it you wanted to sell?
A. Just some stuff I had in the garage that was old military
stuff.
Q. What old military stuff was that?
A. Canteens, ammo boxes, a few parts, an M-16 barrel.
Q. Now, it was after that that Mr. McVeigh -- you invited him
to your farm; is that correct?
A. No, we didn't invite him to the farm until he was at Tulsa.
Q. Now, how many people have visited your farm there on your
invitation since you've bought it?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. You mean both farms?
Q. No, the new farm first.
A. New farm. Four or five.
Q. So would you say it's pretty rare to -- for you to invite
somebody to come and share your hospitality there overnight?
A. It would be unusual.
Q. You go to -- how many gun shows a year did you go to in
1993?
A. Myself or Karen?
Q. Yourself.
A. The two in Ft. Lauderdale, two in Florida; Tulsa; Knob
Creek twice; and the Soldier of Fortune.
Q. That was all that you went to?
A. Yep.
Q. She went to many more; is that correct?
A. Twice as many.
Q. Now, the business that you have with Ms. Anderson is called
the American Assault Company; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a partnership?
A. It's really nothing.
Q. Well, how -- what dollar volume of business did the nothing
do in 1993?
A. 65,000.
Q. And was that your gross sales or profit?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Gross sales.
Q. Now, you testified earlier that you're in the habit of
traveling with large amounts of cash; correct?
A. I didn't say that.
Q. Are you in the habit of traveling with large amounts of
cash?
A. What is a large amount of cash?
Q. Are you in the habit of traveling with $50,000 in cash?
A. No.
Q. About how much cash do you travel with?
A. Coming up here right now, today, at this place?
Q. On average.
A. 1500.
Q. You said in direct examination that when traveling, you
might decide to buy something, such as a horse trailer;
correct?
A. Right.
Q. Do you carry enough money so that if you saw a horse
trailer that you like, you can buy it?
A. That's right.
Q. How much is a horse trailer?
A. 2- to 3,000.
Q. You said that you carry enough money so that if you wanted
to buy a motor home, you could. How much is a motor home?
A. 10-, 15,000. But you don't --
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Pardon me?
A. You don't have to pay for it all at once. I'm sure if you
put a $5,000 deposit, they'd give you time to send them a
cashier's check.
Q. You said that you cannot get credit cards; is that what you
said?
A. Yeah. That's right.
Q. Have you -- as a result of your Florida boat business, you
have substantial securities accounts, do you not, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. They -- in the several millions of dollars; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Have you never received from a bank one of those things
that say, "Congratulations, Mr. Moore, you're preapproved for a
credit card"?
A. Lately.
Q. So -- and -- on what did you base your statement on direct
examination that you can't get a credit card?
A. I went to Barnett Banks, which is the largest bank holding
company in Florida. They advertised in the paper that they
wanted new credit card people. My wife and I went up there,
and we were turned down.
Q. Did you give them a net-worth sheet?
A. Yes, I did. And I told them they could call the brokerage
house and that we had a $250,000 house paid for and we owed no
Roger Moore - Cross
money and I had never borrowed money. And he said, "You have
no credit. I can't give you that."
Q. So that's your one -- that's the only experience you had of
attempting to get a credit card?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, you also said that you have an insurance man from
State Farm Insurance in Florida?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, what's that person's name?
A. I don't remember right now. He's deceased. He had a heart
attack about three years ago.
Q. And your testimony is that you asked some insurance agent
whether you should get a floater policy on your firearms;
right?
A. Right. In Florida.
Q. In Florida. And did he tell you how much it would cost to
have a floater policy on your firearms?
A. Yes.
Q. About 1 percent?
A. $2700.
Q. Do you know what that is as a percentage of the value that
you were talking about?
A. 6, 7.
Q. And did this insurance agent then tell you that you
shouldn't buy this policy?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. No. He said, "Here is the" -- he gave me the pluses and
minuses.
Q. And did this insurance agent tell you that he was afraid
that people that worked for his company might tell somebody
that you were insured so that you would be robbed and killed?
A. He said it's a possibility.
Q. And did you continue to carry insurance with this company
that had people in it that their own agents said might rob and
kill you?
A. I've been with State Farm Mutual since I was 16 years old.
Q. And you're still with them?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever, after the event that you've talked about
today, filed a lawsuit against State Farm for malpractice in
advising you to be underinsured?
A. No. And I probably wouldn't. I've seen enough of
courtrooms right now.
Q. Is this your first experience in court, sir?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, you told us that -- excuse me.
On October -- excuse me. Talking about -- November
the 5th, 1994, is the date we're talking about. You said you
got up, what, about 8, 8:15 in the morning?
A. 8:30.
Q. And you confronted somebody with -- as you walked
Roger Moore - Cross
outside -- right -- or somebody confronted you?
A. Yes.
Q. And this -- this person that you saw was wearing a ski
mask; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And was that person dark-complected?
A. I would say no. I'd say it maybe had some suntan.
Q. Do you remember being interviewed by the Federal Bureau of
Investigation on the 28th of April, 1995, in Hot Springs,
Arkansas?
A. If that was the first date they came, that was -- that
would be the right date.
Q. Did you -- do you remember telling the agents at that time
that the robber appeared to be dark-complected?
A. No, I can't say that I remember that.
MR. TIGAR: D810.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Show you the report of interview and ask you if -- just to
look there and see if that refreshes your recollection. I
understand that's not your document, sir.
A. Where are we?
Q. Right there, sir.
Does that refresh your recollection that you told the
agents --
A. I think there's a difference between dark-complected and
Roger Moore - Cross
having a little suntan.
Q. I understand there's a difference, sir. My question is:
Did you tell the agents that the person was dark-complected?
A. If that's the interview that the agents typed.
Q. My question is: Do you remember telling them that the
person was dark-complected?
A. No.
Q. Now, you told us that the person appeared to have a beard;
is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you -- did the hair of the person come underneath the
mask?
A. The mask was tucked in the jacket -- the collar of the
shirt.
Q. Now, you also told us about being wrapped up in duct tape;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, where was this penknife that you were able to free
yourself with?
A. On the table, glass table right next to the couch.
Q. Now, was that penknife in plain sight?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it open?
A. Yes.
Q. And after the -- this person left the house, how long did
Roger Moore - Cross
you wait before you reached for the penknife?
A. First thing I did was raise my eyes 'cause I could see
under the duct tape and I wanted to make sure nobody was
standing in the doorway with a shotgun. When I determined I
couldn't see anybody, then I tried to get to the penknife.
Q. Now, you had heard the sliding door of your van close;
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. You had heard another door of your van close; correct?
A. The driver's door.
Q. How did you know it was the driver's door?
A. It took the guy that long to walk around the van. I could
hear him walk around the van.
Q. So you surmised it was the driver's door; correct?
A. The van was up against the house, so he had to walk around
the back.
Q. You didn't -- so you didn't see anybody, and then you used
the penknife; correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, it was your plan to chase the robber in a vehicle;
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, later on that day, sir, you went to your van, did you
not?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. And you looked in there for a list of weapons with serial
numbers; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it wasn't there, was it?
A. No.
Q. You had placed a list of weapons with serial numbers in
your van; is that your testimony?
A. We had done that when we moved from the other farm.
Q. Now, in that place where the list with serial numbers was
kept, there was also some cash; right?
A. Right.
Q. And was the cash still there?
A. The cash was laying on the middle of the floor with all the
keys, next to the driver's seat.
Q. So the cash was not where you'd left it; it had been taken
out of the hiding place, left on the floor. And only the list
with the serial numbers was gone; is that your testimony?
A. That is.
Q. Now, who owned these weapons, sir?
A. I owned all but the ones that are registered in other
people's names: My wife and Karen.
Q. Now, you did have insurance, did you not?
A. Homeowner's.
Q. You had a regular homeowner's policy that covered your home
for fire and related kinds of incidents; correct?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Lawsuits.
Q. Lawsuits. And the -- your house is, what, about 1800
square feet?
A. Approximately.
Q. And we've seen pictures of it. It's a frame house; and
what was the replacement cost insurance for the homeowner's
part of the policy?
A. Somewhere around 85,000.
Q. And in addition to that, you had contents insurance;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And on -- as of November the 5th, 1994, the contents
insurance was $63,000; correct?
A. If that's what you say. I don't know the exact amount.
Q. Do you know that it was about $60,000?
A. It's usually a percentage of what the house is worth.
Q. I'm asking you, sir -- I understand -- I'm asking you, sir,
for your recollection. Do you recall now what the amount of
contents insurance was that you had?
A. I do not. I know that it's more than 50 percent.
Q. Now, there came a time, sir, when you went to Washington,
D.C.; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Oh, let me ask you: Do you recall making a claim -- the
amount of the claim you made with the insurance company for the
Roger Moore - Cross
property?
A. You mean on the theft?
Q. Yes.
A. I made a claim on the theft. Not for the amount.
Q. Yes.
A. Because they don't pay the amount. I made a claim, and
they required a police report of what I turned in.
Q. Right. Do you remember telling the FBI that you made a
claim for $59,000?
A. No.
Q. Were you with Mr. Spivey when he added up the amount that
you claim to have lost?
A. I was with Mr. Spivey. I don't know if he added it up or
not. It was already added at the bottom.
Q. Did you ever see his report that he made adding up the
loss?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember telling the FBI that you made a claim for
$59,000 on the property?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Now, you did go to the FBI headquarters in Washington,
D.C., on the 4th of May; correct?
A. If that's the date I flew in, yes.
Q. And at that time you identified a number of weapons as
belonging to you; correct?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you identify any of the weapons as belonging either to
Ms. Anderson or to your wife, Carol Moore?
A. No.
Q. Carol Moore is your wife?
A. Correct.
Q. You've been married how long?
A. Since 1955.
Q. And the deed in your house that lists you as brother and
sister in Arkansas is in error; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, what is Ms. Anderson's relationship to you, sir?
A. She works -- she runs the farm for us when we're not there
and when we're there.
Q. Is she your girlfriend?
A. You could say that.
Q. I'm asking you, sir, is she your girlfriend?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is this an intimate relationship?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, after this person left your house, you went to the
neighbors'; is that correct?
A. After I determined they were home.
Q. And that's the Powells?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Now, at that time Mr. Powell was not there; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you testified on direct examination that you called the
sheriff's office immediately; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, do you remember being interviewed by Mr. Spivey?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told Mr. Spivey that you did not call the insurance
company first; is that right?
A. I made a mistake. We had a little bit of a friction about
him being an adjuster, and he just rubbed me the wrong way, and
I got a little bit rattled.
Q. Now, he made a tape recording of your conversation, did he
not, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you remember being asked, "So you called the sheriff
from their house?
"Answer: Yeah.
"Question: You called the sheriff's department?
"Answer: I didn't call the sheriff, no. The first
person I called, I called Bill Stoneman.
Do you remember telling him that?
A. No. But if I said the first time I called the sheriff's
department, then I called the sheriff's department."
Q. I beg your pardon?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. You said in there -- you read that -- please reread that.
Q. Uh-huh.
"Question: So you called the sheriff from their
house?
"Yeah.
"Question: You called the sheriff's department?"
A. Let's stop right there.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. He said, "Did you call the sheriff's department from your
house?" Yes, I called the sheriff's department.
Q. And that's true, isn't it, you did call the sheriff's
department?
A. I certainly did.
Q. Now, is it also true that the first person you called was
Bill Stoneman?
A. I'm not sure of that.
Q. Now, on direct examination, you said that you called the
sheriff first and then somebody else; correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. Well, isn't it a fact, sir, that when Mr. Powell came home
from where Mrs. Powell had gotten him, he said, "Have you
called the sheriff?" and you said, "No," and he said, "Don't
you think you better do it?" and then you called the sheriff?
Isn't that what happened?
A. He didn't come home for a hour and a half, so I don't know
Roger Moore - Cross
how -- in fact, he didn't come to his house. He came to my
house -- by that time, there were already five sheriff's cars
already there.
Q. The question is: Isn't it a fact, when Mr. Powell came to
the house, he said, "Have you called the sheriff?" and you
said, "No, I haven't," and then he said, "Hadn't you better do
it?" and then did you it? Yes or no.
A. No.
Q. Now, you said that Mr. Spivey rattled you; is that right?
A. No, he rubbed me the wrong way.
Q. Sir, he came out to your house on what date?
A. I really don't know. I think it's listed there. I think
it's the 16th.
Q. 16th. So that would have been 11 days after the incident;
correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, you understood that his job was there to adjust the
claim; correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Well, what was it that he said that rubbed you the wrong
way?
A. They're not too happy with settling claims. And he just
had a tone of voice I didn't like 'cause I was already robbed
of 60,000. I knew I wasn't going to get hardly even
10 percent, so I didn't think they should act like that when
Roger Moore - Cross
I'm paying them insurance.
Q. Well, was he rude to you, sir?
A. I would say so.
Q. Did he express hostility?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he express suspicion?
A. I don't know about that, but I know that Carol -- Karen got
into an argument with him about it.
Q. What did Miss Anderson and the insurance adjuster say in
this argument?
A. I have no --
MS. WILKINSON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
MS. WILKINSON: I think he's answered.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Was that outside your presence?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, at some point during the day, then, the sheriff's
people came; is that correct, sir?
A. To my house?
Q. Yes, to your house.
A. I don't remember that.
Q. At some point, were you interviewed by the sheriff's
officers on the 5th?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Where did that interview take place?
A. Starting at Mr. Powell's.
Q. Did it continue at your house?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you tell the sheriff's officers that the person who
had confronted you was between 5-foot-11 and 6 feet tall and
weighed 185 pounds?
A. I think there was a range on the weight.
Q. My question, then, is, sir: As you remember it, isn't it a
fact that you told them that the person was between 5' 11" and
6 feet and 185 pounds?
A. I can't recall that.
Q. Now, this person you say confronted you, dragged you a part
of the way; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. How much did you weigh at that time?
A. 215.
Q. 215 pounds?
A. Yes.
Q. And how far did this person drag you?
A. 7 feet. On carpet.
Q. Now, on direct examination, you said that when you came out
of the house, you saw this person and it was a horrible
picture; correct?
A. That's true.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Now, in your van that day, did you have a publication that
had a horrible picture on it?
A. I didn't consider it a horrible picture. It meant no harm
to me.
Q. Going to show you what's been marked as Defendant's D1549,
and ask you if that's a picture that you had on the seat of
your van on that day?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you have that in your van that day?
A. I had that in my van. Not in plain sight.
Q. But that's -- that was your publication; correct?
A. No.
Q. Was it a publication that had been in your van for a while?
A. I picked it up at a gun show.
MR. TIGAR: All right. We offer it, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: Is it D15 --
MR. TIGAR: D1549, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Does that look like the person that you described to the
police as having robbed you?
A. No.
Q. Do you see a black ski mask?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Do you see the ski mask tucked into the collar?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you see signs like Waco veteran and ATF; correct?
A. I can't read those. I see ATF. I didn't see --
Q. The person who you say confronted you didn't have any
badges on; correct?
A. Didn't have any black suit on, either.
Q. Okay. From the neck up, does that look like the person
that you told the police had robbed you?
A. They all look similar with black ski masks.
Q. My question is: From the neck up, does that look like the
person that you said robbed you?
A. The picture's not clear enough to see a beard growth.
Q. Now, you told us earlier that the ski mask -- that the
person had hair around the opening of his mouth; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you said that he had at least a one-inch full growth;
is that what --
A. It appeared that on the chin, there was a one-inch full
growth.
Q. So that when you said earlier that it was about a half an
inch, in fact, it was, according to you, about an inch; is that
correct?
A. It could be an inch on the chin, and it could be a half
inch around the mouth.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. And this person that you say confronted you had a long,
elongated head; correct?
A. Correct. That could account for the beard on the chin.
Q. Now, at what time of day did you unlock the door and go
outside?
A. 9:15.
Q. 9:15. Did you tell the sheriff's officers who responded
that it was at 8:30?
A. I have no idea.
Q. You don't remember?
A. No.
Q. Now, you did talk to Mr. Powell when he got back; is that
right, sir?
A. You mean over to my house?
Q. No, when Mr. Powell got back to the house, to the Powells'
house.
A. I recall him coming over to my house when we were over
there with the sheriff's department.
Q. Now, let's be clear about the relationship. The Powells
are your neighbors; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You trust them to look after your property when you're not
there; correct?
A. On the outside.
Q. All right. And the Powells are -- Miss Verta Powell; is
Roger Moore - Cross
that right?
A. I don't know her name. They called her "Pudge."
Q. She's known as "Pudge"; right?
A. That's a nickname.
Q. That's her nickname, and that's Mrs. Powell; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you went over there at sometime in the morning of 5th;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you told her that you had been robbed by more than one
person, didn't you?
A. No. I said, "I've had an armed robbery. I need to use the
phone."
Q. Is it your testimony that you did not tell Mrs. Powell,
known as "Pudge," that you'd been robbed by more than one
person?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you then use the telephone immediately?
A. Yes. As soon as I looked up the number off a book.
Q. And did you talk low to someone and explain what had
happened in the robbery?
A. I tried not to disrupt her. She was fiddling around with a
VCR in the living room.
Q. Who did you talk to?
A. Sheriff's office.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you called Mr. Stoneman and
talked low and explained what had happened in the robbery?
A. I don't remember talking low.
Q. Isn't it a fact that you called Mr. Stoneman and described
what happened in the robbery before you called the sheriff's
office?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Now, do you remember talking to Mr. Lance Powell that day?
A. Is that the son?
Q. Well, he was born in 1969.
A. Must be a son.
Q. Do you remember talking to Lance that day?
A. No. He came in and made a statement to the law-enforcement
officials.
Q. Do you remember telling Mr. Moore -- excuse me --
Mr. Powell that there were at least two individuals who robbed
you because you saw one and heard another one?
A. No.
Q. Do you deny that you told Mr. Lance Powell that there were
at least two individuals who robbed you because you saw one and
heard another one?
A. I never talked to the son.
Q. Now, was one of the people that you asked to help you
investigate this matter someone named David Wegner?
A. Might have been. But he lives in Tulsa. He could have
Roger Moore - Cross
been of very little help.
Q. Now, in March, 1994, was Mr. Wegner assisting you at your
table at the Tulsa gun show?
A. He assists Karen whenever she's up there.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh show up on that occasion?
A. Wouldn't be March. That would be April.
Q. Whenever the Tulsa gun show was in 1994, did Mr. McVeigh
show up?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you introduce Mr. McVeigh to Mr. Wegner?
A. I have no idea.
Q. What name was Mr. McVeigh using at that time?
A. McVeigh.
Q. Now, did you talk to Mr. Wegner about this incident of
April -- November of 1994 with Mr. Wegner at the 1995 Tulsa gun
show?
A. I think you're off a year.
Q. Well, the episode took place in November of 1994; correct?
When was the next Tulsa gun show after that?
A. April of 1994.
Q. April 19 -- is April, 1994, after November of 1994? Isn't
the next one 1995?
A. April of 1995, yes.
Q. 1995.
A. But the previous question you asked about April of 1994.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. I apologize for mixing up --
A. It was April of 1993 when he was at the first Tulsa gun
show.
Q. Let's clear that up. Is it your testimony, sir, that
Mr. McVeigh did not attend the Tulsa gun show with you in 1994?
A. Which one?
Q. How many spring gun shows are there in Tulsa, sir?
A. Two.
Q. Was Mr. McVeigh with you at either of the two spring gun
shows in Tulsa in 1994?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember ever introducing Mr. Wegner to Mr. McVeigh?
A. No. I'm never -- I'm rarely at the booth.
Q. Testimony -- is it your testimony that you did not
introduce Mr. McVeigh to Mr. Wegner?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, now going to the spring of 1995: Did you see
Mr. Wegner in the spring of 1995 at a gun show in Tulsa?
A. See him every time. He used to be head of security for the
state fairgrounds.
Q. And did you tell Mr. Wegner that you were convinced that
McVeigh masterminded the robbery?
A. No.
Q. Do you deny telling him that you were convinced that
Mr. McVeigh masterminded the robbery?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. I'd like you to rephrase the question.
THE COURT: Well, is there something you don't
understand about the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes. It's a yes-and-no question, and
I'd like to say that I might have told him that there was a
possibility but not that I absolutely knew one way or another.
I didn't know.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. All right -- that's -- let me not be unfair to you, sir.
By that time, you -- in 1995, the spring of 1995 -- had you had
any discussion with the FBI about this investigation?
A. Which investigation?
Q. The investigation of the events of November 1994.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you say to Mr. Wegner in words or substance that
you thought Mr. McVeigh might have masterminded the robbery?
A. Probably.
Q. Now, in addition to mentioning Mr. McVeigh's name, you
mentioned the name of a man named Trickel to authorities;
correct?
A. They asked for people that had been at the house.
Q. And Mr. Trickel was just someone who had been at the house;
correct?
A. Yes; correct.
Q. He's not someone with whom you discussed politics and the
Roger Moore - Cross
patriot movement, was he?
A. No.
Q. He's just a dealer; correct?
A. He's an ammunition manufacturer.
Q. Now, you also enlisted the aid of a man named Charles
Abeyta in Muskogee; correct?
A. Yes. Karen did.
Q. And that was a contact made by Ms. Anderson; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you direct her to make that contact?
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss with Miss Anderson investigating the Ft.
Smith, Arkansas area?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you believe that that was a likely place to look
for evidence concerning this episode?
A. They had a car tag. When they ran it down their NCIC, it
turned out to be a vacant lot.
Q. Did you believe that this was a likely place to investigate
this episode, regardless of how it turned out?
A. All places would be likely places, including Ft. Smith.
Q. And did your view that this would be a likely place have
anything to do with the proximity of Ft. Smith to Elohim City?
A. I don't know where that is. I've never been there.
Q. Now, sir, in the letter that was read . . . do you remember
Roger Moore - Cross
writing to the Fifty Caliber magazine about this episode?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you believe that law enforcement had done an
adequate job investigating this matter?
A. Which law enforcement?
Q. Arkansas law enforcement.
A. No.
Q. Now, on November the 5th, 1994, did you go to the local
insurance agency in your community?
A. I don't know what day it was.
Q. Do you remember sometime within the next few days after the
5th, going to the insurance agency in your community?
A. It would be a logical step.
Q. Did you meet there someone named Ms. Dana Priddy, a
customer service representative for the Farmers Insurance
Group?
A. I don't know that. The head of the agency is Jan Dies.
Q. Yes. The agency is Jan Dies; correct?
A. Right.
Q. Did you meet someone other than Miss Dies and describe what
had happened to you?
A. If she wasn't at the office, I would describe it to the
other lady.
Q. Now, did you tell her that you believed that the federal
government was involved?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. No.
Q. Did you tell her that "they came in wearing ski masks while
I was in my living room"?
A. No.
Q. Do you deny saying "they came in"?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you deny saying that it happened while it (sic) was in
your living room?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell that person that you were tied up with duct
tape but managed to free yourself by cutting the duct tape with
a knife from the kitchen?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell that person whether you had been bound with
anything other than duct tape?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Approximately November 18, 1994, did you telephone the Jan
Dies insurance agency? This would be after Mr. Spivy came to
you.
A. I would have no idea.
Q. Did you become an -- you testified you were angry with
Mr. Spivy; correct?
A. No; we had a little bit of a friction. I couldn't -- I
wouldn't call it angry.
Q. Did you call -- the question is, sir: On November the
Roger Moore - Cross
18th, 1994, at 11:45 a.m., did you call the Jan Dies insurance
agency and demand that Miss Priddy put Jan Dies on the
telephone immediately or you would come to the insurance agency
and smear her all over the counter?
A. I deny that.
Q. Did you discuss with the people at the Jan Dies insurance
agency your dissatisfaction that the -- Mr. Spivy had not done
what you thought was an adequate job of investigating?
A. He did an adequate job. He was rude.
Q. You remember telling Mr. Spivy that someone broke into your
house?
A. Being caught outside with a shotgun is not a break-in.
Q. That's not my question. Did you remember telling Mr. Spivy
that someone broke into your house?
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss -- do you remember discussing with Miss
Dana Priddy in the insurance agency the percentage of your
recovery that you might receive from the insurance company?
A. Not really.
Q. Uh-huh. Do you remember expressing anger to Miss Priddy or
Ms. Dies -- excuse me -- with Miss Priddy that you would not be
fully compensated by the insurance company for the loss you
were claiming?
A. I knew I wouldn't be fully compensated.
Q. Uh-huh. My question, sir, is: When you were told you
Roger Moore - Cross
would not -- Did they tell you that you would not be fully
compensated?
A. I don't remember that. It's common knowledge that I
wouldn't -- I've known that since I was 20 years old that you
wouldn't be compensated without a rider.
Q. Sir, my question is: When did you express upset or anger
about the fact you wouldn't be fully compensated to the
personnel at the Dies insurance agency?
A. I didn't.
Q. Now, do you remember on the 5th of November meeting
Corporal Ronald Karchevski?
A. Local police or state police, State of Arkansas police?
Q. Either State of Arkansas or Garland County, whatever law
enforcement officer first arrived.
A. You mean on the robbery date?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I don't remember the name.
Q. Did you -- do you remember a police officer coming in and
greeting you while you were talking on the telephone at the
Powells' residence?
A. I only remember a police -- a sheriff's officer driving up.
Q. All right. When the sheriff's officer drove up, do you
remember that you were talking on the telephone at that time?
A. May have been.
Q. Do you remember giving the telephone to the sheriff's
Roger Moore - Cross
officer who arrived so that that officer could talk to whoever
it was you were talking with?
A. No, sir.
Q. What -- during the time you were at the Powells' and
talking on the telephone, were you talking to a person who was
then in the state of California?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you tell the officer that someone had called the Powell
residence looking for you?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. Do you deny, sir, that someone called you at the Powell
residence looking for you while you were there that morning?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. You don't remember whether it happened or not; correct?
A. No. That's an hour after a robbery with a shotgun. I
wasn't in very good humor.
Q. Now, when you left your house on that morning, sir, were
you wearing the same trousers that you had worn when you met
this individual you've told us about?
A. No.
Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you rolled down an outer pair of
trousers and showed what you said were the trousers you had
been wearing to Corporal Karchevski of the Garland County
Sheriff's Department?
A. I might have put on another pair over them.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Now, do you remember also speaking that day to Detective
Sergeant Shelby Terry of the Garland County Sheriff's
Department?
A. He was the lead investigator.
Q. And did you tell Detective Sergeant Terry that you felt
there were at least two suspects involved?
A. No.
Q. Do you deny that you told him that there were at least two
suspects involved?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, sometime after this event, do you remember speaking of
it to a man named Rodney Bowers?
A. Read the name again.
Q. Rodney Bowers, a reporter for the Arkansas Democrat
Gazette?
A. Oh, okay. It's possible.
Q. Do you remember?
A. No, I don't know the name. But the Arkansas Gazette did
bug us.
Q. Okay. Did you speak to Mr. -- do you remember speaking to
a Gazette reporter over the telephone?
A. It's possible.
Q. Uh-huh. And do you remember telling the reporter that the
guy had been standing there since dawn; they could determine
that?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And what was it that led you to say that one
could determine that the guy had been standing there since
dawn?
A. At the time, before this happened, there was about 3 inches
of grass at that spot. And by standing there that amount of
time, changing from one foot to the other, the grass had been
pushed down into the mud, and there was a hard mud spot about
24 inches in diameter where the person had been standing.
There was no grass left.
Q. The Powells have a dog, don't they, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Combination pit bull and something else?
A. No.
Q. What is it?
A. It's just an old red dog, about 15 years old, tired as
hell.
Q. Does it bark?
A. Only when there's people around on the property.
Q. Hmm. Did the dog bark that night, sir?
A. Yes. That's what Powell said.
Q. Is it your testimony that the Powells told you that the dog
barked?
A. About a week later.
Q. I want to be sure about this, sir: It is your testimony
Roger Moore - Cross
that the Powells told you that the dog had barked during that
time? Correct?
A. At that night, Friday night?
Q. Yes, that night, sir.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, going back to the reporter for the Arkansas Democrat
Gazette, do you remember telling him: "Whatever I was doing
for the FBI is F-blank up because they blew my cover"?
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, could we have a time for
when this conversation occurred?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Yes. All right.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Do you remember when it -- do you remember when it was that
you spoke to the reporter from the Arkansas Democrat Gazette?
A. No.
Q. Was it sometime in 1995?
A. I think they called half a dozen times.
Q. Okay. Was the first time that they called after this whole
business had begun to be in the papers, after the bombing of
the Murrah Building?
A. No.
Q. Is that the first time?
A. They called right after the robbery.
Q. Okay. Well, now -- then let me ask you: Do you remember
Roger Moore - Cross
having a conversation with Mr. Bowers or a Mr. Whiteley from
the Arkansas Democrat Gazette sometime in the middle of 1995?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember -- You do remember interviews with the
reporters; correct?
A. After the robbery.
Q. After the robbery. Do you remember interviews with the
Arkansas Democrat Gazette reporters sometime in June of 1995?
A. No. We decided not to talk to any reporters after the
first 30 days.
Q. Is it your testimony that you did not have a telephone
interview with Mr. Rodney Bowers of the Arkansas Democrat
Gazette anytime between May 1 and June 22, 1995?
A. I can't recall that.
Q. Do you remember ever saying to Mr. Rodney Bowers or any
other reporter: "Whatever I was doing for the FBI is F-blank
up because they blew my cover"?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Do you deny, sir, having ever said to any reporter words
in -- that statement in words or substance?
A. No.
Q. You do deny it?
A. I do deny it.
Q. Have you ever been an agent of the Federal -- an operative
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Or any other federal agency. No.
Q. Now, the voice that you say you heard that morning was real
deep; is that correct?
A. They changed their voice and dropped it an octave, about
like mine is getting now.
Q. All right, sir. My question is -- please have a drink of
water, and then I'll put my question.
The voice was real deep; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Mr. Moore, would it be best if we asked the Judge to take
our afternoon recess right now?
A. Keep going.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: It's the Judge's court.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, Mr. McVeigh came to the ranch sometime in the summer
of 1994; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he discussed that he was living in caves in the Kingman
area to save money and learn survival techniques; correct?
A. Practice survival techniques.
Q. Practice survival techniques. What did he tell you he was
practicing them for?
A. He never mentioned that. I thought he was nuts.
Q. And did you, in your American Assault Company -- did you do
Roger Moore - Cross
business with people that identified themselves as
survivalists?
A. No.
Q. You were aware of survivalist techniques?
A. Correct.
What are techniques?
Q. Well, you know about -- you sell items that people can use
for camping; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You know how people can avoid being spotted by satellites;
correct?
A. We never sold space blankets until this year.
Q. So -- but you do know about that; right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And at gun shows, are there a lot of things sold that are
survivalist-type items?
A. Certain gun shows.
Q. Did you participate with Ms. Anderson in correspondence
with a man named Steve Colbern?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Colbern?
A. Yes.
Q. On the telephone?
A. On the telephone.
Q. Have you ever written to Mr. Colbern?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. No.
Q. Were you discussing with Mr. Colbern anything to do with
Mr. McVeigh?
A. No.
Q. Were you discussing things that Mr. Colbern was ordering?
A. I had nothing to do with mail order.
Q. What was the topic of your discussion with Mr. Colbern?
A. I wanted --
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor -- excuse me.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer. You may answer.
THE WITNESS: I wanted to know what he did for a
living and what area he worked in.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Did you relay that information to Ms. Anderson?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you said that the person that you confronted that day
said to you, "Don't worry about the guns, they're going to
gangs"; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, the guns that were taken were mostly long guns;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, how many firearms did you have in the living room area
where you were in the duct tape?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Two.
Q. And one was a firearm that was right next to your lounge
chair; correct?
A. On the other side.
Q. Pardon me?
A. On the other side.
Q. Now, was it in a closed container or an open container?
A. Closed.
Q. A box?
A. A Xerox box.
Q. And why -- what do you mean by a "Xerox box"? A cardboard
box?
A. One that holds 10 reams of Xerox paper.
Q. And it had its cover --
A. Right there, behind you.
Q. Oh.
A. A box that size.
Q. Box like I'm showing the jury?
A. Right.
Q. That can hold 10 reams of paper?
A. Right.
Q. Did the -- This person that you saw in the ski mask: Did
that person look in that box?
A. I was blindfolded.
Q. You didn't know?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. No.
Q. Oh. When you -- for a part of the time, you had a jacket
over your head; is that right?
A. When I was laying on the floor.
Q. And then you did not have a jacket over your head; right?
A. Right.
Q. You had duct tape around your eyes; right?
A. Across my eyes.
Q. Across your eyes. And you were in a seated position on the
floor; is that right?
A. Yes. Right.
Q. And when you looked your head up, you were able to see; is
that correct?
A. If you wanted to do that.
Q. Well, you wanted to do that after the person left; correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, you said that you could hear footfalls; correct?
A. Right.
Q. So you knew that somebody was, you said, walking around
your house; right?
A. Making trips.
Q. Uh-huh. Now, how much of your house floor is carpeted?
A. The entire house. Except for the kitchen.
Q. Didn't you say on direct examination that it was easy to
hear footfalls because there were wood floors and you could
Roger Moore - Cross
hear the footsteps?
A. Yes.
Q. So is it your testimony that the carpet is over the wood?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you told us that for a time, you had police ties on;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, police ties are things that are like the plastic wire
ties or cable ties -- correct? They're just stronger?
A. They're stronger.
Q. Uh-huh. And at some point, you say you asked the person to
do something about those because they were tight. Is that your
testimony?
A. I told him my hands -- I couldn't not feel my hands any
more; I had a blood sugar problem. That's all I said.
Q. And then the suspect, the person, instantly just went snip-
snip; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And did you see what the snip-snip was with? Did you see
what tool was used?
A. No. My face is on the floor.
Q. All right. And at that -- it was at that point you say the
person got you into a seated position, or did you get yourself
into a seated position?
A. He got a hold of the back of my collar and turned me over
Roger Moore - Cross
and dragged me 6 foot over to the couch.
Q. Dragged you 6 feet, leaned you against the couch?
A. Yes.
Q. At that point that that person leaned you against the
couch, how far away from you was this open penknife?
A. 2 1/2 feet.
Q. On the table right by the couch; correct?
A. I'm still blindfolded.
Q. I understand your testimony, sir. Was it right by the
couch where you were, the table?
A. 2 1/2 feet.
Q. Now, you asked the person if they were Feds; right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, did there ever come a time during this whole
episode --
A. I said that in singular.
Q. Pardon me?
A. I said that in singular.
Q. You asked the person?
A. "Are you a Fed?"
Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the FBI that you asked them
if they were feds?
A. I might have.
Q. All right. And by "they," did you mean singular?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Now, did there ever come a time during this whole encounter
in which the person said: "I'm tired; I'm going to untie you
now; would you please help me load some of these guns"?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. And you're smiling at me, sir. Has someone told you that
somebody once said that the intruder did that?
A. Run that by me again.
Q. Have you ever heard that version that was in my question?
A. No.
Q. Never heard it before today?
A. No.
Q. Now, before today, you have met with the Government
lawyers; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. On how many occasions have you met with the Government
lawyers?
A. In the United States?
Q. Yes, in the United States. Have you met with them outside
the United States?
A. No, I just wondered if you wanted it here or elsewhere.
Q. All right. I didn't -- I didn't understand your response,
sir.
Yes: How many times have you met with them in any
place.
A. Twice in Oklahoma City.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Now, was that in preparation for your grand jury testimony?
A. Yes. Once.
Q. Once in preparation for your grand jury testimony?
A. Once for grand jury testimony.
Q. So that would have been before August of 1995; correct?
A. Oh, certainly.
Q. And then when was the other time in Oklahoma City?
A. Just to go over everything from start to finish.
Q. In December of 1995?
A. That's right.
Q. And then how many times in Denver?
A. Three.
Q. Well, did you meet with them in July of 1996?
A. Maybe August.
Q. Well, did you meet with them in both July and August, 1996?
A. It's possible.
Q. So that would be twice?
A. Yes.
Q. And then did you meet with them again in November of 1996?
Sir -- May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. I know this is not your document, sir; but I'm going to
show you this and ask you if that refreshes your recollection
as to the occasions upon which you met with Government counsel.
Roger Moore - Cross
A. It could be. I lost track. I've met with FBI and
attorneys so many times, I couldn't tell you.
Q. When you say with "FBI and attorneys," you mean with
Government attorneys; correct?
A. And then FBI individually.
Q. Yes. You have never met with Mr. Nichols' attorneys;
correct?
A. No.
Q. Now, you did meet --
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I will be a while longer. I
don't know when your Honor wants to take a break.
THE COURT: We're about halfway in the afternoon, so
we will break.
You may step down, Mr. Moore.
Our 20-minute recess. Members of the jury, we will at
this time take our usual recess, which will be for the usual
period of time, with the customary cautions regularly given of
please avoid discussion of the case or even thinking about it
yourselves in your own minds, remembering that we've a ways to
go and you'll hear a lot more than what you've heard now and
that you have to wait until you hear it all until you draw any
inferences or conclusions in your mind. And of course continue
to avoid anything outside the evidence.
You're excused now, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 3:15 p.m.)
Roger Moore - Cross
THE COURT: Recess, 20 minutes.
(Recess at 3:15 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
MR. TIGAR: Does your Honor prefer that I get standing
at the lectern to save time?
THE COURT: I don't have a preference.
(Jury in at 3:36 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please resume the stand, Mr. Moore.
Mr. Tigar, you may continue.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Moore, you did have an interview, did you not, on
October 10, 1995, with a Mr. Richard Reyna?
A. Yes.
Q. And --
A. At the Soldier of Fortune?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes.
Q. That was in Las Vegas, Nevada?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Reyna introduced himself to you as an investigator
for the Timothy McVeigh defense team. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember telling him repeatedly in that
Roger Moore - Cross
interview that you would do nothing to hurt Timmy?
A. No. I said I couldn't do anything to hurt him. I had no
evidence to hurt him in a trial.
Q. And you expressed your desire that that be conveyed to
Mr. McVeigh's lawyer; correct?
A. Yeah. I didn't want to be called as a witness for nothing.
Q. Right. And do you remember saying that "The prosecution
better not count on me for very much because I will not have
much to say because I don't know anything. I cannot even
identify who it was that robbed me"?
A. That's true.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Reyna that you had no insurance on the
property that was stolen?
A. No.
Q. You deny that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Reyna that the robbery absolutely ruined
you?
A. No. It might have ruined the business, but it didn't
ruin -- it didn't ruin me financially.
Q. Because your net worth is substantial. Is that fair to
say?
A. I'm retired.
Q. You have a securities account in the millions of dollars.
Correct?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. I think that's a little overstated.
Q. You have a securities account over seven figures -- in
seven figures. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember saying to Mr. Reyna that you were glad
the FBI did not execute a search warrant at your home the day
after the Oklahoma City bombing because at that time you had
more weapons in your home than were found in the Davidian
compound in Waco, Texas?
A. Run that by me again.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Reyna in words or substance that you were
glad the FBI did not execute a search warrant at your residence
the day after the Oklahoma City bombing because at that time
you had more weapons in your home than were found at the
Davidian compound in Waco, Texas?
A. That would be an error.
Q. You deny saying that to Mr. Reyna?
A. Yes. That would -- never mind.
Q. Yes, sir?
A. Never mind.
Q. Did you want to add something to that?
A. Then I'd have to have more weapons than I had robbed from
me.
Q. Yes. That was my question, sir. You deny saying that to
Mr. Reyna?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Now, before the break, we were talking about Mr. Colbern.
Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you and Ms. Anderson attempt to put Mr. Colbern in
touch with Timothy McVeigh?
A. I did not.
Q. Do you deny that you and Ms. Anderson attempted to put
Mr. McVeigh in touch with Mr. Colbern?
A. I did not.
Q. Do you remember testifying before the grand jury in this
matter?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember being called down to Oklahoma City and
administered an oath and testifying before 23 citizens?
A. Certainly.
Q. And do you remember being asked the following questions and
being -- and making the following answers, page 50, line 6?
"Question: Just very briefly, can you" --
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, could I just have a moment
to look at --
THE COURT: Yes, you may, if you have a transcript
there.
MR. TIGAR: I'm going to go down through 20.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you. From line 6?
Roger Moore - Cross
MR. TIGAR: Line 20. 6 to 20.
THE COURT: Do you have it?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. "Question: Just very briefly, can you describe that to the
grand jury?
"Answer: Karen was talking to Steve Colbern one day,
and she said he was the type of guy that used to come out of
somewhere. I never did know where he worked. He would never
tell us that. He always talked to us on the phone. He seemed
to be kind of a loner. And she said he liked to do desert
maneuvers; and she said, 'I know somebody else in Kingman that
likes to do the same thing.'
"Question: And who was that?
"Answer: That was Tim McVeigh.
"Question: And did you folks put them in -- kind of
in communication with each other through --
"Answer: We attempted."
Do you remember being asked those questions and making
those answers?
A. Yes. When you say "we," that's probably the pivotal point.
Q. You said "we." Is that correct, sir?
A. I've said "they" a lot of times in the robbery, when I
meant one, just accidentally.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. So your testimony is that when you said "we" to the federal
grand jury, you meant "she"?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you mentioned that the first time you saw Mr. McVeigh,
he had a pile of those red books; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And those red books were The Turner Diaries; right?
A. Right.
Q. And that's the book that everybody hates; right?
A. Well, I don't think the people that buy them hate them, but
I don't think the general public cares for them.
Q. You told the grand jury that's the book that everybody
hates. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever read that book?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh urge you to read the book?
A. Yes.
Q. And you started?
A. Read 30 pages.
Q. Now, were you with Ms. Anderson when she was asked by the
FBI in late April of 1995 whether she knew Steve Colbern?
A. What location would that be?
Q. That was in Hot Springs, Arkansas, sir.
A. At what location?
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. At the FBI office.
A. We were never -- we were never questioned together.
Q. Do you remember having a conversation with Ms. Anderson
about the FBI asking her if she knew Steve Colbern?
A. It's possible.
Q. My question, sir, is do you remember having a conversation
with Ms. Anderson about the FBI asking her if she knew Steve
Colbern?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did she tell you in that conversation that they had
asked her about Mr. Colbern?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did she say that she had denied knowing him?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk to her about going to the FBI and correcting
anything that she had said about Mr. Colbern?
A. No.
Q. Now, you mentioned that Mr. McVeigh had said to you that
Russian vehicles were being stored in Mississippi?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did he tell you where these vehicles were in his view?
A. Saucier, Mississippi.
Q. Did he tell you that they were in plain sight on Highway 49
running from Gulfport to Hattiesburg?
A. Yes, sir.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. About 35 miles north of Gulfport?
A. Something like that.
Q. Did he tell you -- had you ever seen pictures of that
location?
A. Did he ask me or tell me?
Q. No, had you ever seen pictures of that location?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you see pictures of a building with the sign Aromar
on it?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you went looking to see if there were Russian
vehicles, is that the location that you went to?
A. I never went.
Q. Did you ever go looking for -- to see if there were Russian
vehicles?
A. At that location?
Q. At any location.
A. At the northern bases in 1993.
Q. And you never went to Mississippi to look. Is that right?
A. No. Absolutely not.
Q. Now, before the break I was asking you about Ms. Priddy,
the person at the Jan Dies insurance agency. Did you ever
display a badge?
A. No.
Q. To one of the employees there?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you deny that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you deny displaying a badge and saying, "I shouldn't
show you that"?
A. No, sir.
Q. No. Do you deny that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in an attempt to investigate this matter, you
contacted Chief John Brown; is that correct, sir?
A. I did no investigation on this matter other than the few
weeks that I had before I left for Florida.
Q. Did you contact a man named John Brown?
A. No.
THE COURT: Are we talking -- when you say "this
matter," are you talking about the November 5?
MR. TIGAR: Yes. The November 5 matter.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. In connection with the November 5 matter, did you speak to
a man named John Brown of the Alexander Police Department in
Arkansas?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever spoken to a man named John Brown concerning
an investigation of the November episode?
A. Not to the best of my recollection.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Can you remember ever telling anyone that you suspected
that the Garland County, Arkansas sheriff's deputies had
removed the list of guns and serial numbers from your van?
A. It's possible.
Q. Sir, I'm asking for your best recollection. Do you ever
recall telling anyone that you suspected that the Garland --
Now, you live in Garland County; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And these troopers that came there are Garland County
troopers; correct?
A. True.
Q. Do you remember ever telling anyone that you suspected the
Garland County troopers having removed the list from your van?
A. It's possible.
Q. All right. And can you remember to whom you told that, if
you did?
A. I certainly cannot.
Q. All right. Now, do you -- was it the Garland County
sheriff's people who had told you to put the list inside your
van?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember ever telling anyone that it was at the
suggestion of the Garland County troopers or sheriff's
department that you put the list inside your van?
A. No.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Now, you wrote a letter to the Fifty Caliber machine-gun
magazine; correct, sir?
A. The club, yes.
Q. What is that magazine called?
A. I really don't know. I don't subscribe to it.
Q. I'm going to place up what's been identified -- or in
evidence rather as D1647.
Now, who composed that letter, sir?
A. I can't tell you. Usually, I dictate these letters, so I
don't know whether I composed it or I dictated it or somebody
else did.
Q. Showing you, sir, the last page of D1647, is that your
signature?
A. Certainly.
Q. Now, looking back here to page -- the first page -- do you
see that -- you say, "The perpetrator then dragged victim into
living room"?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Is that the way you remember it now, sir?
A. No. But it doesn't matter to them how it happened. I was
just interested in the two guns. They didn't print any of that
anyway.
Q. I understand they didn't print it, sir. This letter is
dated December 1, 1994; correct?
A. Yes.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. You sent it to the magazine because you wanted it
published; correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You wanted to send a "sorry note for gun collectors";
right?
A. Right.
Q. You're telling us that "the perpetrator then dragged victim
into living room" is not something that occurred; is that
right?
A. From where I crawled in to where I wound up flat on my
face, it would have been a 2- or 3-foot drag. It could be
possible.
Q. But it's different from the version that you now remember;
correct?
A. No.
Q. And then you have, "Victim said, 'Down the hall in the
bedroom in the filing cabinet.'" You didn't tell us "Down the
hall in the bedroom in the filing cabinet" as words you'd
spoken when you testified on direct examination, did you, sir?
A. Where is this, please.
Q. Pardon?
A. Where is this, please.
Q. Last of the paragraph where my finger is: "Victim
said . . ."
A. Uh-huh.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Do you see that, sir?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. My question is this is not consistent with the version that
you gave us on direct examination, is it?
A. You're right. I told him it was on the computer desk in
plain sight.
Q. Now, this paragraph you were shown before: "Our main
concern is to find the perpetrator so we could determine
whether this had something to do with law enforcement or a
patriot group or a professionally possibly retired SEAL or
Special Forces person." Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. What did you mean by "patriot group"?
A. Militia group. Militia groups are normally underfunded,
and 77 guns would help a great deal.
Q. And you're familiar with militia groups, are you, sir?
A. No, I am not. I've never attended a militia meeting.
Q. Have you had a business relationship at any time with the
head of the Montana militia, known as MOM?
A. I have visited them on one occasion by accident.
Q. And when was that that you visited them by accident?
A. The summer of '93.
Q. Were you with Ms. Anderson?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you state that "law enforcement cooperation at this
Roger Moore - Cross
point has been extremely limited." Is that a true statement?
A. Yes.
Q. After the bombing of the Murrah Building, the FBI came to
see you quite a bit. Is that correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did there come -- excuse me. Did there come a time
when they stopped talking to you?
A. They advised us they were finished with us about the 15th
of June and said they would appreciate if we would go on a
vacation.
And I said, "That's great. I want to go to the fly-in
at Oshkosh, Wisconsin. Never been there, and I'll see you."
Q. Did you identify that time as approximately the time that
Michael Fortier made his plea bargain that they stopped
interviewing you?
A. No. I paid no attention to what he did.
Q. Do you remember telling an investigator for Mr. McVeigh
that the FBI conversation stopped at about the time that
Michael Fortier made his plea bargain?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember ever telling any investigator that the
conversation stopped at about the time that Michael Fortier
made his plea bargain?
A. No.
Q. Earlier we were talking about your having gone to FBI
Roger Moore - Cross
headquarters in Washington, D.C., to identify firearms as
yours. Remember that, sir?
A. Certainly.
Q. And on that occasion, do you remember identifying as yours
a .22 long-rifle caliber, Ruger Model 10/22, Serial No.
114-36756?
A. No. I said it might -- it looks exactly like mine. I
couldn't possibly tell you. The gun is only worth $125. There
is thousands of them out.
Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you -- gun's only worth $100,
you say?
A. $125. If it had a scope, 175.
Q. Now, and that's -- most of the guns on the list with the
exceptions that you noted are the sorts of guns you see a lot
at gun shows, a lot manufactured; correct?
A. Explain that again, please.
Q. Most of the guns on your list that you and Ms. Anderson
made are the sorts of things that are commonly sold at gun
shows; correct?
A. Not all of them. Not even half of them.
Q. All right. My question is, then, sir: Isn't it a fact
that on the 4th of May, 1995, you positively identified as
belonging to you the Ruger -- the serial number of which I've
just read.
A. At the J. Edgar Hoover Building in Washington, D.C.?
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, I did not.
Q. You deny having positively identified. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you remember being present there with Special Agent
Jessie?
A. Yes. He took me there.
Q. Did you also look at a 7.62 by 39-millimeter Ruger Mini-30,
Serial No. 189-57425?
A. I might have looked at a Mini-30. I can't tell you the
serial numbers. I didn't bother to look at any of the serial
numbers.
Q. Did you positively identify weapons on that date as
belonging to you?
A. The gas gun, the Winchester commemorative gold-plated gun,
and the custom .308 that I had the stock carved for on a Mauser
action.
Q. Those are the only three weapons that you remember having
positively identified that day?
A. Positively identified?
Q. Yes, sir, positively identified.
A. I probably identified the .30-06 Remington 700 with the
carved sling.
Q. Let me ask you, sir: Did you positively identify a Ruger
7.62 by 39-millimeter?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. That would be impossible.
Q. And you said you did not positively identify the .22
long-rifle Ruger 10/22; correct? Is that your testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, during your contacts with Mr. McVeigh, what name did
he use?
A. At what time?
Q. At any time during the time that you knew him.
A. It was "Tim McVeigh" until he was in Kingman, Arizona,
maybe three or four months; and then he wrote and said he
wanted to change his name to "Tim Tuttle," address the mail to
"Tim Tuttle."
Q. Now, from that time forward, what -- did you ever
communicate with him at any address other than Kingman, Arizona
address?
A. None.
Q. And that was always the Stockton Hill Road address?
A. I think so.
Q. That is, did you --
A. I did not address the letters.
Q. Okay. Did -- Ms. Anderson addressed all the letters?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many letters did you write to Mr. McVeigh from the
time that you first met him in Ft. Lauderdale until the last
letter, one that you were asked about on direct examination?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Probably between seven and nine.
Q. And were all of those addressed by Ms. Anderson?
A. They -- I might have addressed a couple, but I would have
had to got the address from her. I wouldn't remember that.
Q. Did you write "burn" on the bottom of all the letters?
A. No.
Q. Does Ms. Anderson write "burn" on the bottom of all her
letters, to your knowledge?
A. Well, I wasn't there for four months. I wouldn't have any
idea how to tell you that.
Q. On every letter that you have observed her write, does she
write "burn"?
A. No.
Q. Now, have you had an opportunity to discuss with
Ms. Anderson your recollections of the events of November,
1994?
A. You mean the robbery?
Q. The events -- I understand that you believe -- you say it's
a robbery, sir. I'm asking you about the events of November,
1994. Yes. Have you had an opportunity to discuss that with
Ms. Anderson at any time?
A. We discussed it at great lengths for months.
Q. When is the last time that you discussed it?
A. Oh, up until now off and on.
Q. Did you discuss it with her last evening?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. No.
Q. Did you see her last evening?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you discuss the fact that she'd been a witness?
A. I knew she'd been a witness.
Q. Did you discuss with her the fact that she had been a
witness?
A. I don't understand that. If I knew she'd been a witness,
why would I --
Q. Did you discuss with her what had happened to her in court?
A. No, I did not. We were advised not to.
Q. All right. And you obeyed that admonition; correct?
A. I certainly did.
Q. Now, did -- would it be fair to say that Mr. McVeigh had
very defined political views?
A. Yes.
Q. And how would you describe those views?
A. Focused, radical.
Q. Radical in what sense?
A. Against the federal government.
Q. And did he have views against the federal government's
views on gun control?
A. Not near as much as he had views on the BATF.
Q. And did you agree with his views on gun control?
A. Not entirely.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Did you agree with the assault-weapon ban?
A. I don't think they banned anything that made any
difference.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh have views about racial matters?
A. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Q. Did you ever hear him express his views on race relations
in the United States?
A. He had a book, if you can call that a view. I don't know
if he had the book to sell or to read. It was called White
Power.
Q. Having a book is not any evidence that he believed or
didn't believe something in it, would you say, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, by the way, you had a filing cabinet -- some
two-drawer filing cabinets at home; correct?
A. Three of them.
Q. Now, did you have one that had a label on the front that
said "Cam 2 racing gasoline"?
A. Yes.
Q. Where -- what did that mean, that "Cam 2 racing gasoline"
label on your file cabinet?
A. That is a decal they gave me when I built a racing boat for
Benihana restaurants. I have a Benihana jacket, also.
Q. How does racing gasoline in your knowledge differ from
ordinary gasoline?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. It's higher octane.
Q. And do you have to buy it at some special place?
A. I don't know where they buy it.
Q. Now, when you were building these boats, did you build
racing boats?
A. We built four.
Q. And would they be described as high-performance boats?
A. Top-performance boats, unlimited.
Q. All right. You built them. Right?
A. We did not build the boat itself. The hull.
Q. You built the hull?
A. Bertram built the hull called a "38 Mopi." They brought it
up to our shop on a trailer and left it there, and we put in
the mechanical, the flaps, the steering and all the rest of the
stuff.
Q. Did you put in the engine?
A. Yeah.
Q. And these were engines that ran as (sic) high-performance
gasoline?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you ever go to a place where you watched this boat
perform?
A. You mean in a race?
Q. No, out on the water.
A. I rode in one once.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Your boat facilities were down on the east coast of
Florida?
A. Yes, Ft. Lauderdale.
Q. In the Lauderdale area. And you were involved in building
fiberglass boats of various kinds at various times. Is that
right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Now, you testified you got a letter from Mr. McVeigh
sometime in January -- or a letter came to your Arkansas home
sometime in January of 1995. Is that correct?
A. That's what Karen said.
Q. And after -- you saved that letter. Correct?
A. I can't tell you.
Q. But you've seen the letter; correct?
A. I don't know. There is only one letter that we found that
we gave to the FBI, and I don't know what date it is.
Q. I'm going to place on the displayer here just the first
page of what's been received as Government's 1746 and ask you
if that refreshes your recollection that that was a letter that
came to your Arkansas address from Mr. McVeigh.
A. Looks good.
Q. All right. By that you mean it looks like that letter;
correct?
A. It looks like that letter.
Q. When is the first time you actually saw that letter?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Have to be when I came up in the end of March.
Q. March of '95?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, after -- and Ms. Anderson -- excuse me -- Ms. Anderson
had saved this letter?
A. She must have. I think we found that letter in the back
pocket of the van stuffed away.
Q. And when did you find it?
A. On the way back from Knob Creek.
Q. Is it March of '95?
A. Yeah. No, April.
Q. April of '95?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. But before the bombing of the Murrah Building; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is it your memory, sir, that Mr. McVeigh wrote you
another letter after this one?
A. Probably.
Q. Well, when you say "probably," what causes you to hesitate?
A. Well, I'd have to read that whole letter and then I could
tell whether I advised her to write him back. If that's the
letter about him being in the car accident --
Q. Yes, sir.
A. -- then I asked -- I had her write him back.
Q. And you -- did it help you to remember that you had her
Roger Moore - Cross
write him back by reading the letter Government's Exhibit 2104
that you wrote to him?
A. I don't know what that is.
Q. Well, do you remember reading -- Ms. Wilkinson or
Government Counsel reading aloud for the jury the letter that
you wrote to Tim, the letter that ends "burn"? Remember that?
A. Yeah.
Q. And that letter is a response to some letter other than the
one I just showed you; correct?
A. Certainly.
Q. All right. And the letter to which it is a response is one
that you remember getting after -- or excuse me -- that you
remember having sent after the McVeigh letter to you that I
just had you look at. Correct?
A. There was --
MS. WILKINSON: Can I object, your Honor?
THE COURT: Well, I'm confused about the question.
MR. TIGAR: Well, I'm confused by my own question,
your Honor, so I'll ask it again.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. McVeigh wrote you in January; correct?
A. I guess so.
Q. All right. Then -- and soon after that letter got there,
Ms. Anderson called you up and read the letter to you; correct?
A. Probably.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. And then you asked her to write him back; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the letter that you asked her to write him back: She
didn't keep a copy of; correct?
A. You mean make duplicates?
Q. Yes.
A. We don't make duplicates of any letters.
Q. After you asked her to write him back, did he write you
again?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did that next letter come?
A. Middle of March.
Q. Do you remember where it came from?
A. Most of them came from Kingman.
Q. Did you ever get a letter from Mr. McVeigh other than from
Kingman, Arizona?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. And did you ever write to him anyplace other than Kingman,
Arizona?
A. Never.
Q. Now, did you discuss with the FBI the fact -- excuse me.
Did you discuss with the FBI your contention that
someone had stolen the serial numbers of the weapons?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you tell the FBI that anybody robbing you wouldn't
Roger Moore - Cross
know where the numbers were?
A. Not unless they were a psychic.
Q. And yet the numbers were missing when you got to your van;
correct?
A. May I get in a point?
Q. Well, I'm afraid that all you can do, sir, is answer the
questions that I'm asking.
A. Yes, they were missing.
Q. Now, did -- were you concerned in the spring of 1995 with
the allegation that money that had been derived from the
weapons that had been taken from your house had been used to
finance the robbery -- finance the bombing of the Murrah
Building?
A. If that was the case.
Q. Do you remember saying to an investigator who interviewed
you that it doesn't fit in that they bought the bomb with it
because the stuff was bought before the robbery?
A. The newspapers reported that.
Q. Uh-huh. And do you remember making that conclusion that it
didn't fit in?
A. What? Explain that again.
Q. Do you remember telling an investigator that it doesn't fit
in that someone would have used this robbery to finance a
bombing because, according to the papers, everything had been
bought?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. The ammonium nitrate was bought supposedly, according to
the papers, in September or October.
Q. But you had no personal knowledge; right?
A. No.
Q. Now, you said that in direct examination that Mr. McVeigh
had access to the house all the time he was there; correct?
A. Well, I never saw him go in my bedroom; but when you're out
feeding the animals or you're in the shower, that takes 20
minutes out of the day.
Q. And in addition to the time when Mr. McVeigh was there when
you were present, you know that he was there at a time when you
were not present. Correct?
A. Yes. You mean during the winter?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah.
Q. And you were aware, also, that Mr. McVeigh's habit was to
just walk around and help himself to anything he wanted;
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, you wanted to help Mr. McVeigh with his gun show
business, didn't you, sir?
A. No. I didn't know he was in the gun show business. He was
selling off his surplus stuff.
Q. Well, you knew that he traveled to gun shows. Correct?
A. Well, he was nearly out of stuff when he left Tulsa.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. You had seen -- you met him at a gun show; right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You went to Dinner Key with him at a gun show; right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. He shared a table with you at Tulsa; correct?
A. Karen let him put some stuff on about 3 feet of the table
and he sold most of it. I figured that was the end of it.
Q. Well, isn't it a fact, sir, that you heard Mr. McVeigh say
that he was going to make a loop; that is to say, he was going
to go to Arizona and then he was going to wind up through these
other places you told us about on direct examination and wind
up back at his father's home in New York? You remember telling
me that, don't you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And you sat around with maps and tried to tell him how to
do it and where to go, didn't you?
A. I certainly did.
Q. Now, sir, was it McVeigh's habit when he wrote to you to
write "burn" on his letters?
A. He started that in '95.
Q. On the letter that you -- that I just showed you a few
minutes ago, which is Government's Exhibit 1746 -- thank you,
Ms. Goodman -- does he write "burn" on the bottom of that?
A. No.
Q. He writes, "Careful and watch your back." Correct?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. That's right.
Q. Now, sir, did you have a list of people at your home that
you were going to give to law enforcement if you ever got in
trouble?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Now you're smiling, sir, when you make that answer;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Or when you heard the question. Have you ever heard that
someone had said that you had done that?
A. No. But the FBI knows what I think about snitches.
Q. What do you think about snitches?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Well, they had one at Ruby Ridge, and
they spent an awful lot of money to get a guy in jail; and it
cost them an awful lot of money for $400 worth of shotguns.
And they spent three years with a government informant up there
trying to talk the guy into building them. It seemed kind of
dumb.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. And you've told the FBI this?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you also have a view about the FBI's conduct in Waco?
A. I think if they want to serve a search warrant, I think
Roger Moore - Cross
anybody in the room that had -- that was a reasonable person,
they could have served the search warrant. The sheriff has
indicated that a number of times.
Q. Do you disagree with what the Government did in Waco? Is
that your testimony?
A. I think a prudent person would.
Q. And you consider yourself a prudent person?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this American Assault Company that you have: When did
that acquire the name "The Candy Store"?
A. Somebody at a gun show that Karen was at suggested she name
it "The Candy Store." I was not there.
Q. Okay. And did you acquiesce in or agree with that decision
to call it "The Candy Store"?
A. You mean on her volition?
Q. Yes.
A. Doesn't matter to me.
Q. Now, whose business is that, hers or yours?
A. Half and half.
Q. And do you split the profits?
A. No.
Q. How are the profits accounted for and reported?
A. I do it.
Q. And do you keep records of the orders that are made -- that
are filled and who bought things and to whom they were sent?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And how long are those records kept?
A. Three or four years.
Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you keep your records for
three or four years?
A. Yes.
Q. And in addition to these records that you keep three or
four years, do you also keep a journal; that is to say, an
accounting-type journal?
A. They're all kept in a book, spiral book, for the year.
Q. And it's on that basis that you report -- you report as a
sole proprietor, then?
A. Yes.
Q. And you report as a d/b/a, doing business as, on Schedule
C. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You report your doing business as American Assault Company?
A. Yes.
Q. And The Candy Store?
A. We don't use "The Candy Store." That's like a -- a
nickname.
Q. And when you send out your -- when you put ads -- excuse
me -- in magazines, do you -- Do you put ads in magazines?
A. Shotgun News.
Q. Do you use the name "The Candy Store" in those ads?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. We haven't put ads in the Shotgun News for over a year.
Q. When you were putting ads, did you use the name "The Candy
Store"?
A. I can't recall because I don't put in the ads.
Q. Ms. Anderson takes care of the day-to-day conduct of the
business; is that right?
A. She takes care of the paperwork.
Q. In addition to selling ammunition, is there anything else
that American Assault Company sells?
A. Flares. Some parts -- we don't advertise parts. Flares,
pyrotechnics, parachute flares, road flares for people that
have trouble on the road, and distress flares for people that
are hiking that have smoke on one end and a flare on the other,
so at night they can use the flare and in daytime they can use
the orange smoke.
Q. Now, in addition to the things you sell through American
Assault Company during the 1990's, did you and Ms. Anderson
sell other things?
A. Not -- I didn't.
Q. Did you sell beginning in, say, 1987, down to November of
1994 -- did you ever sell books?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you sell or offer to sell pornographic tapes?
A. I didn't.
Q. Did you ever offer to sell to a federal agent 10
Roger Moore - Cross
pornographic tapes for $10 apiece?
A. It's possible.
Q. And when you say "it's possible," does a recollection come
into your mind?
A. That's nine years ago.
Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested this took
place -- might take place in Utah?
A. Yeah. I know what took place in Utah. I know what took
place in Utah.
Q. I understand, sir. Did you at any time offer to sell
pornographic tapes to a federal agent in 1988?
A. I do not recollect. I was not up there to sell
pornographic tapes. I was up there to sell ammunition.
Q. Now, you told us that after the robbery, you were
interested in making a list that you could provide to law
enforcement and to the insurance authorities. Do you remember
that?
A. You mean a list of the things that were stolen?
Q. Yes. A list of things that you were claiming that were
stolen.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember, sir, being shown -- perhaps you still have
it up there -- Government's Exhibit 1739. Do you have it
there?
A. I don't know. It would be better to tell me what it is. I
Roger Moore - Cross
don't know --
Q. It is a list dated November 13.
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Is that it?
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Yes, sir. Going to Government's Exhibit 1739, I'm going to
place this up here. Do you see this Item 9, large, unopened
UPS boxes containing tracer ammo?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, whose ammo was that?
A. I paid for it.
Q. And was that ammo in connection with American Assault
Company?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, American Assault Company was a business that you were
conducting out of your home; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you had homeowner's insurance; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have business insurance?
A. No.
Q. Now, was that ammo that had been received -- was that ammo
that had been received from Mr. Strommen?
A. Yes, sir.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Was it the ammo that had just been received from
Mr. Strommen?
A. Several days.
Q. And did you, in fact, call Mr. Strommen to get a duplicate
copy of the invoice?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you cause that to be done?
A. I didn't cause it to be done. I don't take care of the
paperwork.
Q. Do you know that a duplicate copy of the invoice was
obtained?
A. No, I do not.
Q. I'm going to show you what's been received in evidence as
Defendant's 1201. And I ask you, sir, if you've ever seen that
before?
A. No.
MR. TIGAR: Has that not been received, Ms. Hasfjord?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: No, it has not.
THE COURT: Oh, yes, I think it has.
MR. TIGAR: Perhaps under a Government number, your
Honor. Let me show it to --
MS. WILKINSON: I believe it's been admitted under a
Government number -- it was a defense number?
MR. TIGAR: To clarify, if I've not done so, may I
offer D1201.
Roger Moore - Cross
MS. WILKINSON: We have no objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's received. I know we've
seen it before.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Moore, do you ever remember seeing that before?
A. No, I don't.
Q. So do you know of any other ammunition in a box other than
the ammunition that had been received from Mr. Strommen?
A. Would you leave that up there for a moment, please.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Pardon? Now, repeat the question.
Q. Do you know of any other ammunition in a UPS box --
A. Two boxes.
Q. Okay. Do you know of any ammunition other than large,
unopened UPS boxes, other than the Strommen ammunition?
A. No.
Q. And are you able -- do you have as you sit there any
explanation for the disparity between the $925 on the invoice
and the $945 on the list?
A. No, other than when we made up the list, we didn't have the
invoice.
Q. The list is dated the 13th. Is that correct?
A. I don't know. I don't have a copy of the list.
Q. See that: "Revised 11-13"?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Invoice is dated the 7th. Is that correct? Is that right?
A. Yeah. But that's when he made it up in Wisconsin. That
doesn't mean we had it in our possession.
Q. I understand. And you don't know of your own personal
knowledge, do you, what conversation Ms. Anderson had with
Mr. Strommen about that matter; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Sir, towards the end of your direct examination, you were
shown a copy of a letter that you sent to Mr. McVeigh. Do you
remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Before I ask you that, sir, isn't it a fact that you were
not robbed on the 5th of November, 1994? Yes, or no?
A. We were robbed on the 5th of November, 1994.
Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you and Mr. McVeigh worked out a
plan to get these guns out onto the market and you would
collect whatever you could for the insurance company -- from
the insurance company? Is that a fact, or not?
A. No.
Q. You deny that?
A. I deny that.
Q. Sir.
Now, you testified on direct examination that you had
received a -- that you had sent a letter to Mr. McVeigh;
Roger Moore - Cross
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you said that the letter was designed to try to get
Mr. McVeigh to come and visit you. Is that right?
A. Right.
Q. I'm going to place up on the screen what has been received
in evidence as Government's Exhibit 2104.
Sir, in calendar 19 -- well, does American Assault
Company still operate?
A. To get rid of the balance of the inventory because the
shows are very slow.
Q. And what is it that causes sales to be slow?
A. Approximately two weeks before the November election in
1994, when most of the gun people that came to gun shows were
told by the media that the Republicans were going to sweep the
Congress and the Senate, everybody said, "huh," took a deep
breath and said, "We don't have to worry about stockpiling
stuff anymore because there is not going to be any more gun
laws." And the shows absolutely dropped free fall with no
parachute.
Q. And when was it that the shows free fell with no parachute?
A. Two weeks before the election, when it was obvious that the
Republicans were going to win the House and Senate.
Q. So you thought that the gun show business was going to turn
south and get bad; is that right?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Every time you went to one, that's what happened.
Q. And your sense that the gun show business was about to go
bad was formed in late October, 1994. Is that right, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was it your sense that the market value of items that
were being sold at gun shows would diminish?
A. Only the ammunition and parts went down, not the guns. The
guns have gotten higher.
Q. So that if you were going to make any money in this
business, selling guns was going to be the better way to do it
than selling ammo. Is that right?
A. I don't need the money.
Q. My question was if one was going to make money in this
business, best way to do it was to sell guns and not ammo;
correct?
A. Right now, nobody is making money.
Q. My question, sir, is in October of 1994, a prudent business
person would conclude that the way to make money was going to
be selling guns and not ammo; isn't that right?
A. We didn't realize this had happened for the first four or
five months. It didn't happen immediately. It started then.
Q. But didn't you say a moment ago, sir, that gun dealers had
anticipated this result and began to do so shortly before the
election?
A. Gun purchasers.
Roger Moore - Cross
Q. Pardon me?
A. The people that come to gun shows, not the dealers.
Q. And the dealers, of course, would feel the effect of it;
correct?
A. I would so -- I would think so, although there is more gun
shows now than there ever was.
Q. We're talking about the feeling at that time.
Sir, looking now at Government's Exhibit 2104, you
said, "I'm reading your letter and answering it question for
question." See that, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, "No. 1, since the robbery, we are phasing out of this
activity."
You're telling him that you're phasing out of the sale
of ammunition. Is that your testimony?
A. That's right.
Q. And the reason you're phasing out of the sale of ammunition
is that the ammunition business is not so good. Correct?
A. That's right.
Q. The predictions that people had made there towards the end
of October of 1994 had begun to come true; correct?
A. Right.
Q. And this fact that the ammunition business was going down
and -- was a fact that you had shared with Mr. McVeigh before
this time; is that right?
Roger Moore - Cross
A. Before which time?
Q. Before you wrote him this letter.
A. No. This is the first time I've told him that.
Q. You corresponded with Mr. McVeigh every few months. Is
that correct?
A. To the best of my ability.
Q. Is it your testimony that you never had any correspondence
with Mr. McVeigh about what was happening to the ammunition
business before this letter?
A. Not to the best of my knowledge, or I wouldn't have to
write this.
Q. You say, "Since November election, mail order is off
80 percent. Some shows are off 50 to 75 percent. All dealers
are getting creamed."
Now, by that you mean ammuniti