The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Wednesday, November 19, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 82)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:30 p.m., on the 19th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, and RANDAL SENGEL, Assistant U.S.
Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park
Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing
for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, SEAN CONNELLY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY
MEARNS, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, and ADAM THURSCHWELL,
Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308, Denver,
Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:30 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
MR. TIGAR: May we approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 82B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
(Jury in at 1:32 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please resume the stand, Mrs. Padilla.
(Lana Padilla was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mackey.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
Your Honor, if I could begin by announcing that by
agreement of the parties, Mr. Terry Lynn Nichols returned to
the United States on January 16, 1995.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, that is our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. And, Miss Padilla, let's start with that date, January 16,
1995. Do you recall the day that Mr. Nichols returned from the
Philippines?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you pick him up?
A. Yes.
Q. That morning, before Mr. Nichols got back, did you receive
a phone call at your residence?
A. Yes.
Q. From whom?
A. Tim McVeigh.
Q. Let me show you Government Exhibit 1888. It reflects a
Lana Padilla - Direct
record, does it not, of a phone call from the residence of
Kevin and Jolynn Nicholas, in Vassar, Michigan, to your
residence in Las Vegas; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And what time of morning in Las Vegas was it that you
received that phone call?
A. It was early. It was -- I don't know, 6:00, 6:30. 5:30.
I'm not -- it's a three-hour time difference.
Q. All right.
A. Two-hour time difference. It was early.
Q. What happened in the phone call? Tell us.
A. It was very brief. Just -- in fact, I was still asleep,
and Leonard answered the phone and handed it to me. And it was
Tim asking me if Terry was coming home. And I said I didn't
know when, I was going to wait for a phone call; when he got
into town, I was picking him up at the airport.
Q. Were you expecting him sometime that day, though?
A. I don't remember if it was that day. I know Terry called
from the Philippines with Marife and said that, you know, he
would be coming home, and I don't remember if he said what
date. I expected him, but I didn't know what date.
Q. Mr. McVeigh did call on the day that Mr. Nichols arrived
back into the U.S.?
A. Yes.
Q. Back in December, as you told the jury, when you talked to
Lana Padilla - Direct
Mr. McVeigh, did you tell him then -- that is, Mr. McVeigh --
when it was you expected Mr. Nichols to return?
A. No.
Q. The reference to Kevin and Jolynn Nicholas in the exhibit,
do you know who the Nicholases are?
A. No.
Q. There would be no one at that residence, to your knowledge,
that would have any reason to call you?
A. No.
Q. Tell us, then, about Mr. Nichols' return. What time, if
you recall, did you pick him up, and what happened?
A. It was in the evening. It was dark, early evening. He got
in, I think, a little earlier than expected. Caught a quicker
flight in LA to Las Vegas. I picked him up at McCarran
Airport, took him back to my home, and he stayed there. And
then the next day he went to get his truck.
Q. On the day of his return on January 16, was he with anyone?
A. I didn't see anyone.
Q. To your knowledge, where was Mrs. Nichols and their
daughter?
A. I understood that she was in the Philippines.
Q. On the next day, January 17, could you describe what
happened?
A. 17th, I took my son to work, came back in the house. My
husband was gone to work. And I think Josh was still asleep,
Lana Padilla - Direct
and Terry was standing in the kitchen. And he looked at me
puzzled, and I knew the puzzled look was he had probably gone
behind the drawer to try to find the bag. And I made -- I
guess I said, "Um, are you looking for something?" And he
thought maybe it had gotten stolen -- his look on his face was
as if the money had been stolen.
Q. Did you and Mr. Nichols have a conversation then about the
bag that had once been in the kitchen drawer?
A. We talked a little bit about it.
Q. Describe what you recall.
A. I said that it was safe, I took it to my office. And I
was . . . I was going to get ready for work. Before I went to
go get ready for work, I said -- made a comment that "Let me
know if I can keep some of it," in reference to some support
for Josh. And that was all I said.
Q. In the conversation in the kitchen that morning, did you
say anything to Mr. Nichols in the way of explanation as to why
the bag was gone or why the paper bag had been opened?
A. No.
Q. Did you see Mr. Nichols later that same day?
A. Well, when I got ready for work, I took him to Boulder
Highway to pick up his truck, and it was my understanding he
was going to come over to my office and pick up the money.
Q. Now, before the two of you left your residence on the 17th,
did you receive yet another phone call?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. I recall a phone call from Tim McVeigh.
Q. Let me show you the Exhibit 1888 as to that date,
January 17. Do you see the first entry, again a phone call
from the Nicholas residence to that of yours on the 17th at
about 8:51 Central Standard Time? You see that entry?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Does that correspond with the approximate time period of
your conversation with Mr. Nichols in the kitchen that morning?
A. Is that 8:51?
Q. Central Standard Time, not Las Vegas.
A. It seemed like it was ten to 7, so I don't know. I thought
it was about ten to 7.
Q. Did the phone call from Mr. McVeigh in fact interrupt the
conversation you were having with Terry Nichols?
A. We had already had the conversation. And I was -- I
believe I was in my room getting ready, and I took the phone
and I took it out to Terry, and he took the call, and I went
back to my room.
Q. Did you know it was Mr. McVeigh who was calling?
A. Yes.
Q. And how so?
A. Because I've talked with him before, and he identified
himself and "Is Terry there?" I didn't pay any attention; I
just gave the phone to Terry.
Q. After the close of phone call between Mr. Nichols and
Lana Padilla - Direct
Mr. McVeigh, what, if any, conversation did you have then with
Mr. Nichols?
A. There was reference made to the money; that Tim needed to
borrow some money to buy a vehicle.
Q. Can you be more specific?
A. He said that Tim needed to borrow some money to buy a car,
I guess. And I just made a comment that "Would you give it to
him but not give it to Josh, or to me?"
Q. Now, at that point in time, in the morning of January 17,
had you shared with Mr. Nichols your reaction or response to
having discovered so much money and other assets?
A. No. I was just --
Q. That had not become a subject of your discussion?
A. No. I was just happy he was there.
Q. Later that same day, did Mr. Nichols come to your office?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately what time?
A. Two or three hours later, I guess. I think it's two or
three hours. Towards noontime.
Q. Tell the jury, please, what took place when Mr. Nichols
came to your office.
A. He came to the office. I gave him back the package, the
package -- the brown package, which had been opened. And I
gave him back the Wal-Mart bag with the cash in it minus
$5,000. And he left, and he called me back later when he
Lana Padilla - Direct
realized I had kept $5,000.
Q. Let's go back to the office and give the jury a few more
details. Describe the conversation you had with Mr. Nichols
when you're relaying back to him the contents of the package.
A. There really wasn't any conversation at that time about it.
We were in place of business. He was -- he was professional
enough, he took everything, left. Then we had the conversation
after that. He came back to my office the next day.
Q. I take it, then, on the 17th when you turned over this
property, you did not tell him at that time in doing so that
some of the money was gone?
A. No, I didn't tell him.
Q. When was it, Miss Padilla, that you had removed a portion
of the 20,000?
A. That morning, when I came to the office, I asked Terry for
a figure. He wouldn't give me a figure. We didn't discuss it.
I just assessed a figure.
Q. Before you left your residence, then, in conversation with
Mr. Nichols, had you made clear that you wanted to make claim
to some portion of those moneys?
A. After I asked him, I didn't really ask him after that
again.
Q. Had you made any attempt, Miss Padilla, to restore the bag
in the same condition as when it had been turned over to you?
A. I don't recall trying to -- I think I left it just
Lana Padilla - Direct
obviously that I opened it up.
Q. Now, after Mr. Nichols left, you told us that you heard
again from him?
A. He called me on -- later on. I don't know if it was from
my house or from a pay phone. I don't know. And he expressed
to me that there was some of the money missing.
Q. Tell us about that conversation.
A. And I said that I knew there was and I had kept $5,000.
And he didn't like -- like that figure. He didn't really agree
to that. And he told me he worked on cash and he needed all of
his money. And so we talked about it off and on the next 24
hours.
Q. And did you have yet another conversation at your office
that day with Mr. Nichols about the money that you had removed?
A. The next day when he came back.
Q. All right. Tell us about that conversation.
A. He came back and was trying to explain to me that he needed
all of the money, and I was . . . I did agree to give him back
$2,000. He really didn't want -- he wanted it all, but he
agreed to let me keep the 3,000 if I would open up a savings
account for Josh.
Q. And ultimately did you do so?
A. No.
Q. And why not?
A. My life -- things changed in my household. I became
Lana Padilla - Direct
separated, and the money became used for household.
Q. Miss Padilla, do you recall approximately when it was that
Terry Nichols left Las Vegas in January of 1995?
A. Sometime shortly after he got back a part of the money.
Q. Let me show you again Government Exhibit 1888 for the date
January 18, Wednesday.
Do you see a phone call from your residence to that of
the Nicholases on that morning of Wednesday, January 18, 11:32
Central Standard Time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make that phone call?
A. No.
Q. Where would you have been on Wednesday morning that time,
Las Vegas time?
A. At my office.
Q. You see a second phone call, then, back to your residence,
from the Nicholas residence, from Vassar, Michigan, later that
day, approximately an hour later?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see that? Were you a party to that phone call?
A. No.
Q. To your knowledge, where was Terry Nichols on the morning
of Wednesday, January 18, 1995?
A. Probably at my house. I didn't -- that would have been the
day that he came over to get the rest of the money.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Nichols then left Las Vegas on or
about that date, January 18, 1995?
A. I know he left Vegas. I don't know if it was that night or
the next day, but he left.
Q. Before Mr. Nichols left Las Vegas in January 1995, did you
ever question him about the contents of the paper bag that you
opened?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever question him about any of the letters that
you've shown this jury this morning?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall after Mr. Nichols left Las Vegas when it was
you next heard from him?
A. I recall a conversation. He called, I think it was the
first part of February.
Q. February, 1995?
A. Yeah.
Q. In that conversation, did the two of you talk about
pursuits of income or employment?
A. I remember talking with him about -- he may have called to
talk to Josh, but it's hard to tell. I mean it's usually to
call to talk to Josh. But the conversation was referencing --
we were talking about what he was going to be possibly doing;
and in that conversation I think I recall him -- I suggested
that Josh was looking forward to spending the summer with him
Lana Padilla - Direct
and Tim doing gun shows. And he made reference that him and
Tim were no longer going to be doing gun shows together.
Q. What explanation or reason did he give you?
A. I recall they had different business ideas, and he also
mentioned that Tim didn't like children. And I was really sad
because I thought, you know, this was a chance to -- you know,
the summer for Josh, and I remember the conversation because I
felt sad.
Q. Do you know where Terry Nichols was calling from?
A. No.
Q. In January and February of 1995, did you know any family or
friends of Mr. Nichols in the state of Kansas?
A. Repeat that, please.
Q. In that time period, in early 1995, did you know of any
family or friends of Mr. Nichols had resided in the state of
Kansas?
A. In '95. No.
Q. The conversation in which you learned that Mr. McVeigh and
Mr. Nichols were no longer going to do gun shows together, are
you positive that it took place in February of 1995 and not the
fall of 1994?
A. February.
Q. Let me turn your attention now to March of 1995. Did you
and your husband -- or ex-husband I should say, have
conversations about spring break plans for Joshua?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe those. What plans were made?
A. I thought Josh had a two-week vacation from school, and I
was incorrect. And I had talked to Terry about Josh coming to
visit for two weeks, and that wasn't going to fit his schedule
because he was going to Michigan and taking his wife and child
and they were going to a gun show. But we made plans for Josh
to go for a week, and he went just one week.
Q. Do you remember what week it was that Josh Nichols made
plans to go to Kansas?
A. I think he departed on the 10th of April, 1995, and came
back on the 17th of April, 1995.
Q. And where did he go?
A. He went to Kansas. Herington, Kansas.
Q. And was that because Mr. Nichols was then residing in
Herington, Kansas, in April of '95?
A. Yes, he had just bought a home there.
Q. At any point during Josh Nichols' stay, during the spring
break, did you and your husband (sic) talk again about
extending the time period that Josh would be there?
A. There was a conversation. I don't know if I called Terry's
house or if Terry called me, but there was some talk about him
staying an extra few days.
Q. And was that a phone conversation?
A. Yes.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. Describe what happened in that call.
A. He just asked if Josh could stay until the end of the week,
and he also mentioned Josh coming there to live with him
permanently when school was out.
Q. What did you say in response to that request?
A. I said that Josh couldn't miss any more school, and so Josh
came home as scheduled.
Q. Take a look, please, at Government Exhibit 2047. 2047.
Do you recognize what that is?
A. It's travel plans, itinerary.
Q. Does it accurately show the time and date of departure to
Kansas and return to Las Vegas in April of 1995 for Josh
Nichols?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Government
Exhibit 2047.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 2047 is received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Miss Padilla, according to that exhibit, if you'd take a
look, could you tell the members of the jury what time it was
that Josh Nichols was to fly back to last Las Vegas.
A. He was scheduled to leave Kansas City at 10:45 p.m.
Q. On what date, please.
A. April 17, which was a Monday.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. And what was your practice with regard to making
arrangements to pick up a family member at the airport in due
times?
A. Always call and verify the flight is on time.
Q. Did you have a conversation with Terry Nichols before you
left your residence to pick up Josh Nichols on Monday,
April 17?
A. Yeah, Terry called and said that Josh was on the airplane.
He called from -- I believe he called from the airport.
Q. Do you recall anything else that was said during the
conversation?
A. No.
Q. Let me show you Government Exhibit 1888 one more time for
April 17, 1995. You see the list of phone calls for Monday,
April 17, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see a phone call to your residence?
A. Yes.
Q. At 10:46 p.m., Central Daylight Time, from an airport pay
phone in Kansas City, Missouri?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see a phone call immediately before that to the
Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes.
Q. On April 17, 1995, had you ever heard of the Dreamland
Lana Padilla - Direct
Motel?
A. No.
Q. Miss Padilla, do you recall the date of the bombing?
A. The date?
Q. Yes.
A. April 19, 1995.
Q. And after the bombing, did you have occasion to talk to
your husband (sic) in Herington, Kansas?
A. I talked to him the night before and on the 21st of April,
also.
Q. Would the 21st be Friday?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe to the jury that conversation on Friday,
April 21.
A. It was early Friday morning, around 7 a.m., and I had
called Terry's house in Herington. And I was calling him
because Josh had just gotten back, and he was . . . he was
sharing some information with my other son that Terry was
saying he couldn't get his eyes fixed because I had stolen this
$3,000. So that wasn't like Terry to say anything like that,
so I called him up and wanted to know what was going on, why he
would talk to Josh about personal things when he could -- you
know, we usually talked about those things, so --
Q. In that conversation, Miss Padilla, was it interrupted?
Did Mr. Nichols have to leave at any point?
Lana Padilla - Direct
A. Oh, we had a few words, and I was -- I was, you know,
expressing myself, he was expressing himself, and then he said
he had somebody there and had to go.
Q. And again, approximately what time of morning was it that
you called that day?
A. About 7 a.m., Las Vegas time.
Q. Shortly after that conversation on that same day, Friday,
April 21, were you contacted by representatives of the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. And where were you contacted?
A. I was en route to my office, and they had -- I guess,
called my home and then they paged me and they called the
office. Finally I was at the office. That's where they came.
Q. And in the course of the conversations, did you provide to
the FBI the address -- what you understood to be the address of
Mr. Nichols in Herington, Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. And what address did you give them?
A. 901 South Main, I think.
Q. Or 2nd Street?
A. Or 2nd Street, yeah. 901, I remember.
Q. Did you look that address up in any record of yours?
A. I looked it up in my -- they asked me when was the last
time I talked to Terry and where he was at, and so I told them
I had talked to him at his home. And they asked me where that
Lana Padilla - Direct
was at, and I pulled out my Daytimer and I had written down 901
South 2nd Street.
Q. And that's the information you relayed, then, to the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. From whom did you receive that address?
A. I would have received it from Terry.
Q. In the course of that morning with the FBI, did you come to
know that Mr. Nichols was then being interviewed, or later in
the course of that day, I mean, by the FBI in Kansas?
A. Did I --
Q. In the course of Friday, April 21, did you come to know
that members of the FBI were interviewing Mr. Nichols in Kansas
on that same day, April 21?
A. Much later in the day.
Q. At any point in time, were you requested to make a
statement to Mr. Nichols?
A. I didn't request to make a statement to him, no.
Q. Were you requested to make one?
A. I was asked if I would make a statement and tape it; right.
Q. Would you describe what happened and what you did?
A. I hand-wrote out a statement, and it was from me to Terry;
and also I hand-wrote out one for Josh, and we taped it.
Q. And did you understand the purpose and what use would be
made of that taped statement?
A. Yes. They were to be shared with Terry.
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. Would you tell the jury why it was you made the tape
recording.
A. We were -- we were really kind of in shock and didn't
really -- I don't really know exactly why, but we were asked,
and it seemed like a good idea because maybe helping -- I don't
know what Terry was going through, but I know what we were
going through; and maybe this taped conversation would help
Terry with whatever he was going through.
Q. I have just one final subject area, Miss Padilla. In the
summer of 1995, did you have occasion to talk with Mr. Nichols
again about what you'd seen at the storage shed back in
December of 1994?
A. One time when we visited, there was just mention of what I
had seen, as far as the -- some items in the storage locker.
Q. Focusing on that topic matter, Miss Padilla, could you
describe to the jury who initiated that subject matter, who
raised it?
A. From my recollection, when I visited Terry, he mentioned to
me, "Did you really see" -- I think he said "pipes." And I
didn't remember saying that. I didn't remember seeing that.
Q. We're talking about pipes in the storage shed in Las Vegas?
A. Right.
Q. What did you say?
A. I said, "No." I said, "I saw wigs -- a wig, nylons -- wig,
pantyhose, makeup, and a ski mask."
Lana Padilla - Direct
Q. And what was Mr. Nichols' response?
A. That he was -- used that to scare his wife, Marife.
Q. It would be his wife, Marife Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the only explanation he's given you as to the
possession of a ski mask, wig, makeup?
A. We have never discussed anything else.
Q. Beyond that?
A. No.
MR. MACKEY: All right. I have nothing else, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good afternoon, Miss Padilla.
My name is Ron Woods, as you know, and I'm one of the
lawyers appointed to represent Terry Nichols in this case.
You and I first met a couple of months after
Mr. Nichols was arrested; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You and your son Josh came to Oklahoma City to visit with
Terry Nichols, and you sat down and talked with us; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. In fact, you've been very cooperative in talking with the
lawyers and the investigators that have been appointed to help
Terry Nichols, have you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that because you feel that both sides are entitled to
all of the facts that -- as you know them?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you mentioned that -- on direct examination that you
grew up in the Thumb area on a farm and you went to college for
a little while and then got married in 1970 to Mr. Osentoski.
How do you pronounce that name?
A. That's correct, Osentoski.
Q. And how long were you married to him?
A. We divorced in 1978.
Q. Okay. And Barry and Troy are the sons of that marriage?
A. Correct.
Q. And then you mentioned on direct examination that you were
married to Terry Nichols from '81 to '89?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is the -- where were you living when you first met
Terry, and what year did you first meet him?
A. I was living -- you mean the address?
Q. Well, what town?
A. Oh. Decker.
Q. Okay. And what year did you first meet Terry Nichols?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. It was 1980.
Q. What was the occasion -- how did you meet Mr. Nichols?
A. I had sold a piece of property to another farmer that was
friends with Terry's family, and then he was farming the land
around my house.
Q. All right. And what was the occasion why you or how you
met Mr. Nichols?
A. I approached him about real estate.
Q. You were in the real-estate business at that time, were you
not?
A. Yes, uh-huh.
Q. And did you ask him if he was interested in buying real
estate, to use you as a broker?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And what month in 1980 was that, if you recall?
A. It seemed like it was -- if he was working the fields, it
must have been springtime, but I don't really remember. I
don't remember the month.
Q. All right.
A. It might have been '79 in the winter. I don't -- I know I
was working with this one family person, and he was looking at
farms in the wintertime because that's the least busiest time.
Q. When you say "he" --
A. The other person that bought.
Q. Yes. Now, did Terry Nichols contact you about engaging in
Lana Padilla - Cross
a real estate transaction?
A. I don't remember. If he contacted me or I kept contacting
him, I don't know.
Q. Did there come a time shortly thereafter when a real estate
transaction was entered into by Terry Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you broker that?
A. I was the agent.
Q. The agent, okay. Isn't it true that Terry Nichols made a
$70,000 profit on that piece of property that you arranged the
sale of?
A. Best of my recollection, he did get -- and it might be 70.
Q. What month did you get married?
A. January.
Q. Of '81?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay. And where did you all live initially?
A. In my home that I had on Hadley Road, which was across the
section from the Nichols' farm home.
Q. In Decker? Was the address connected with the village of
Decker?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And how long did you live in that home?
A. I don't remember the sale date. But after I got pregnant,
we sold my home and we moved over to the Decker farm home.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. Is that the one on 3616 North Van Dyke?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And Josh's birthday is August of '82; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So you married -- you moved into the Van Dyke address
before the birth of Josh?
A. Right.
Q. Now, were your two sons living with you at the time, with
you and Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. By "two sons," I mean Barry and Troy.
A. My two older sons; right.
Q. And was Mr. Nichols acting as father to those two boys?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when Josh was born in '82, how old were the two boys,
Troy and Barry?
A. Well, Barry was born in '71, so that would have made him
11, going on 11, when Josh was born. And Troy was born in '74,
so . . . he would have been like 8 or 9, I guess.
Q. Okay.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may I show the witness two
photographs?
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WOODS: And I can deliver them to her.
Lana Padilla - Cross
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. I'll ask you to examine photographs that have been
identified as D1649 and D1648. And have you seen those
photographs before?
A. Yes.
Q. Do they accurately depict what is depicted within those
photographs, the individuals, as of that time?
A. Yes.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may it please the Court, we
would offer into evidence the photos marked as 1649 and 1648.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'd renew our position.
THE COURT: What's the purpose of the photographs?
MR. WOODS: To show the birth of Josh -- not the
birth, but the person of Josh and in relation to the age of the
other two boys that he was growing up with at that time.
THE COURT: All right. I'll receive them.
D1649, D1648?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
May I publish them, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, Miss Padilla, how old were you when Josh was born?
A. 32.
Q. Now, were you older than Terry when you all got married?
A. Yes.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. About how many years?
A. Five years, I think.
Q. Now, who is depicted in -- thank you.
Who's depicted in that photograph?
A. It's Terry, me, and Josh. And it was a Walton Christmas
party.
Q. That's the Christmas of the year '82, right after Josh was
born?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you Government -- Defense Exhibit 1648. Would
you tell the jury who those three males are.
A. The one on the left is Barry, my oldest son, and then Josh
and Troy.
Q. And again, Barry is 11 at that time?
A. Yeah.
Q. And Troy is how old?
A. He was born in '74, so --
Q. You recall approximately how old Josh was in this photo?
A. Looks about maybe eight months.
Q. Now, did the three children live with you and Terry during
the course of your marriage? You mentioned that you got
divorced in '89. As long as you all were living together, you
and Terry, were the three children living with you?
A. Yes.
Q. During the course of your marriage, did -- how was
Lana Padilla - Cross
Mr. Nichols employed?
A. From -- starting with the beginning of the marriage?
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. When I first met him, he was employed on the Nichols farm,
and he was also investing -- he had other rental properties,
another rental property. He was looking in also securing --
looking at other properties in real estate.
And then after we got married, he left the farm and
started selling fertilizer.
Q. And where was that?
A. In Decker.
Q. What was the name of the business that he was working for
selling fertilizer?
A. He was independent. I don't remember the name of the
business. I don't remember the name of the fertilizer company,
either, but he bought the equipment; and it was liquid
fertilizer that he would deliver. He would secure accounts
from other farmers that wanted to use liquid fertilizer rather
than the granule.
Q. All right. And how long did he do that?
A. I . . . for a couple years. Maybe a year and a half. Then
he started working at the co-op elevator, which was in Cass
City, and I was home with Josh at that time. Interest rates
were high. I wasn't working, and he took that job at the co-op
out there.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. What was his job at the co-op? What position did he have?
A. Manager. He ran it. He was recruited for the job through
stockholders.
Q. He was asked to take that job by the owners of the co-op?
A. Stockholders, uh-huh.
Q. Now, you mentioned that he was a dealer for liquid
fertilizer for a short period of time?
Was there occasions where you and Mr. Nichols would
attend county fairs and set up tables to sell items?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And what were you selling, Miss Padilla?
A. Before I was in real estate, I was in direct sales with a
company called Stanley Home Products; and even after I got into
real estate, I still usually had a booth at the county fairs to
continue serving my customers. And Terry and I were very
close, and he just went along and did his thing.
Q. All right. Now, what was he selling at this table with
you?
A. He had the idea of selling for plant food, fertilizer,
liquid fertilizer.
Q. What size of containers do you recall that he --
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Were they small, large, or something that would fit on the
table?
A. Various sizes that would be displayed.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. Were they in bottles, boxes, or what?
A. Plastic bottles.
Q. Do you recall what years those were?
A. Not exactly. Early 80's.
Q. Was that on more than one occasion that Mr. Nichols did
that that you observed?
A. Yes. We usually worked -- there were three county -- three
counties where we lived that were close. There was Huron
County, Sanilac County, and Tuscola County, and we usually -- I
usually attended those fairs.
Q. Now, during the course of your marriage, did you -- the two
of you buy and sell real estate?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many pieces of real estate did the two of
you purchase together?
A. That we didn't live in?
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. 'Cause we moved a lot. We bought -- I think we had three
or four rentals. Terry took care of that.
Q. Was the purpose of buying the real estate so that it could
be rented out and generate income?
A. It was an investment, uh-huh.
Q. And were the properties eventually sold?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, who managed that during the course of your marriage,
Lana Padilla - Cross
the buying and the renting and the upkeep and the sales of the
pieces of property?
A. Terry did.
Q. And what were you doing during that course of time, Miss
Padilla, after Josh was born and you stayed home for how long,
a year?
A. About a year.
Q. And then what did you do when you went back to work?
A. I became -- interest rates were high. I became insurance
licensed and started working with a company out of Columbus,
Georgia.
Q. What was the name of the company?
A. American Family Life Assurance. And I'm still licensed
with them.
Q. Was there a time that you worked for a company called A. L.
Williams?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. '84, '85, '86; right in that general period.
Q. Did Terry Nichols work there for a period of time, the same
time you did?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the nature of that business?
A. It was -- A. L. Williams was a company that believed in buy
term and invest the difference, mutual funds, so we had to get
Lana Padilla - Cross
a security license.
Q. Now, during the course of your marriage to Mr. Nichols, did
he obtain various licenses --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that you were personally aware of?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell the jury what licenses he obtained.
A. He had to get an insurance license to work with A. L.
Williams, and he also obtained a Series 6 and 63 license, which
is a securities -- not a full stockbroker, but mutual funds.
Q. Did he do that through self-study?
A. Self-study.
Q. And did he sell securities for a period of time?
A. Yes, he was very good at it.
Q. Now, at A. L. Williams, did you all ever have sales
meetings or the managers or people come and have sales
meetings?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever hear the phrase "go for it" at those meetings
or anywhere at A. L. Williams?
A. At those meetings, yes.
Q. Now, what did Terry Nichols do after A. L. Williams, after
his employment there?
A. We bought another piece of property, which was like an
80-acre place, and we were busy moving after that; and then
Lana Padilla - Cross
shortly after that, he went to the Army.
Q. Now, you mentioned on direct examination about seeing some
silver coins in the locker when you went to it there in Vegas.
A. Yes.
Q. Have -- when you and Mr. Nichols were married, did you have
precious metals in your possession during the course of your
marriage?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the occasion that you and Mr. Nichols invested in
precious metals? And by that phrase, I'm using your phrase.
Do you mean coins, gold and silver coins and bars?
A. He was more familiar than me with the whole thing, but we
had pails of -- buckets of silver, and we had bars, and we had
large bars and small bars. And we had coins.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols explain to you why he was buying those
items?
A. Well, we were diversified, and I -- we were following
publications like Howard Ruff and Financial, Marco Harelson;
and we were following their direction, and that's what they
were directing. And Terry was studying their business plan,
and he was diversified into that. We were in real estate and
precious metals.
Q. What real -- excuse me. What financial advice or pamphlets
or magazines or newspapers did you observe Terry Nichols
reading during that period of time?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. The Wall Street Journal, and we belonged to some bartering
groups, so we got Barter newsletter. Marco Harelson had a
newsletter called Financial Independence, I think it was, a
monthly magazine. And Ruff Times was a newsletter. And then
when we got into penny stocks, there was another publication
that we followed and subscribed to.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols subscribe to The Wall Street Journal during
the period that you knew him?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether or not he still subscribes to The Wall
Street Journal?
A. My understanding: He does. Yeah, he sent me things out of
The Wall Street Journal, so he gets it.
Q. Now, you mentioned that you got into penny stocks. Was
there a time that you had a substantial investment in the
stocks, the penny stocks or the stock market?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Can you recall approximately how much was invested
in the market during this time, during your marriage?
A. A dollar figure? How much?
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. Terry took care of all that.
Q. Okay. During the course of the marriage, how would you
describe Mr. Nichols' diet -- his living, his health concerns
and his diet --
Lana Padilla - Cross
MR. MACKEY: Objection, Judge.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. That's a rather vague question, but did Mr. Nichols do his
own cooking?
MR. MACKEY: Objection, relevancy.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Did Mr. Nichols do his own cooking?
A. He did most of the cooking, yes.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols have a garden?
A. Yes.
Q. What was grown in the garden?
A. Everything that you could imagine that would feed our
family.
Q. How would you describe his concern about healthy foods
against junk foods?
A. He was . . . he was -- he practiced what he talked about.
Q. What did he talk about?
A. About eating right. Natural foods.
Q. Okay.
A. And we -- he would grind up the wheat and make the bread
and make the pancakes and the waffles and . . . .
Q. Have you ever known Mr. Nichols to use drugs?
A. Never.
Q. Has he ever stated his position on drugs?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. Oh, yes.
MR. MACKEY: Objection, relevance.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. How would you describe Mr. Nichols during the course of
your marriage as to his personal habits of cleanliness,
appearance, etc.?
A. Immaculate.
Q. Even when he worked on the farm, what was his appearance?
A. Neat and clean.
Q. Okay. Is he a type of person who would be slovenly and
smell like a pig farm?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained as to the form of the question.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Have you ever seen him, during the course of your
acquaintance with Mr. Nichols from 1980 through today, appear
slovenly and smell like a pig farm?
THE COURT: Well, that's -- that's the part I'm
sustaining.
MR. WOODS: All right. Your Honor, I'll withdraw the
"pig farm."
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Have you ever seen him appear slovenly and unkempt and
Lana Padilla - Cross
dirty?
A. No.
Q. Now, Miss Padilla, you mentioned for the first time on
direct examination something about a smell. And I'll just ask
you -- I haven't heard this one before -- but what did you mean
by the smell, that you said that Mr. Nichols explained that it
was a new cologne or something, or deodorant?
A. It was a different smell. It was almost like he used a
different kind of soap, I thought maybe. I didn't know
exactly. It was strong, and I didn't know if it was like an
organic soap or something, but it was different.
Q. Did it smell like a pig farm?
A. Did it smell like a pig farm?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained as to the "pig farm."
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. It's a term that's been
used by other witnesses, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Objection --
THE COURT: Which is why I sustained the objection to
it.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. When you became divorced, Miss Padilla, was it an amicable
divorce?
A. I thought so.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. There was nothing harsh, bitter over the divorce?
A. It was painful, but it was . . . we kept in communication.
Q. Was that because you had a child?
A. And I think we're both reasonable people.
Q. You mentioned that Terry Nichols went into the Army in '88.
Was that the beginning of your separation?
A. He went into the Army in 1988.
Q. Okay. And you --
A. That's what started we were apart. But I don't know if we
were really separated at that time, or it was months later.
Q. When he got out of the Army, do you remember the month, of
'89? You mentioned he got out of the Army a year later. Do
you remember when he got out of the Army?
A. I thought it was in May of '89. I'm not sure of the month.
Q. Did you live together from that period, May, '89, forward?
A. No.
Q. So you were separated at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. The divorce was final in December of '89?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, did you see Mr. Nichols between his basic
training in Fort Benning, Georgia, and his assignment to Fort
Riley?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember whether or not he came home to Michigan?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. I'm sure we had to see each other, but I don't remember the
visit.
Q. Did there come a time when Terry Nichols took custody of
Josh, the son, during '88?
A. After basic training.
Q. And do you recall approximately what month that was?
A. No.
Q. And where was Josh at that time?
A. At the time when Terry was in between basic --
Q. Yes. When he took custody of Josh, where was he at that
time?
A. He was either with me or with the babysitter.
Q. Okay. Now, where were you working during that time?
A. I was working in Bay City, Michigan.
Q. And were you staying in Bay City during the week?
A. Sometimes.
Q. And where was Josh Nichols, the son, staying?
A. He was with my brother and sister-in-law.
Q. Okay. And he was five or six years old at that time?
A. Correct.
Q. And was it with your agreement and consent that Terry
Nichols take custody of him and take him to Fort Riley, Kansas,
where he was assigned?
A. After some discussion.
Q. Okay. And what discussion did you have with Mr. Nichols
Lana Padilla - Cross
concerning that?
A. Well, we were separating, and Terry didn't -- because of my
working a lot and not being with Josh, of course, he didn't
want him to be neglected. And also my oldest son was
recovering from drug use, and he didn't want his son around
drugs. And I agreed that that was probably true, and I --
Terry had always raised Josh, and I felt that rather than
having it -- a court decide, we decided. So that was the
decision.
Q. So Terry had Josh living with him in Fort Riley while he
was assigned there in the Army?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever go down there to visit, or were you aware of
what the conditions were?
A. No.
Q. Did you understand that Terry had rented a house off base?
A. Yes.
Q. And that a lady was there during the day taking care of
Josh?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that when you heard about Mr. McVeigh, who had rented a
room at the house, also?
A. It seems that -- no, I think I heard about Mr. McVeigh when
it was basic training.
Q. Okay. Were you aware of whether or not Mr. McVeigh rented
Lana Padilla - Cross
a room from Nichols in the house while he was there at Fort
Riley?
A. I might have been aware of that, but haven't recalled it.
Q. Do you recall what the address was on the house outside the
base, what town it was in?
A. Manhattan, Kansas, I think. I don't know the address.
Q. Now, when Mr. Nichols was discharged from the Army and came
back to Decker, Michigan, where did he live, to your knowledge?
A. He lived on Argyle Road.
Q. What house was that?
A. It was the last home that we bought, the 80-acre farm.
Q. Who lived there with him?
A. My son Troy, and my son Barry was working with his father
in construction.
Q. And where was the father living?
A. Oh, there was a time during that wintertime that Barry and
Troy's father did live in our home there with the boys.
Q. Same time that Terry was, or that was before Terry got
back?
A. It was before Terry came back.
Q. And when Terry got back, who was living with him other than
Josh?
A. Troy, my other son.
Q. All right.
A. And he allowed him to live there.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. Where were you living?
A. I was living in Bay City, Michigan.
Q. So Terry had Troy and Josh that he was taking care of in
the house?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how -- what Mr. Nichols was doing then, where
he was working?
A. No. I can't recall. I don't know.
Q. Pardon me?
A. I think he started working with some construction, Ulfig
Construction, but it was part-time for us. And I didn't really
talk to him about it.
Q. And then the divorce was final December of '89; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then did you learn the next year in late 1990 that
Terry Nichols had gotten married to Marife Nichols in the
Philippines?
A. He told me before he married her he was going to get
married.
Q. Okay. And when was the first time that you met Marife
Nichols?
A. Summer of '91.
Q. Okay. And where was Terry Nichols living then, to your
recollection?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. In Las Vegas.
Q. What was he doing in Las Vegas?
A. He was working -- he was trying to pick up where we left
off with doing some trust deeds and real estate. And he was
working with me doing some installation for water softener --
water -- environmental products.
Q. Was that the company called Consultants?
A. Yes. Yeah.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what type of business was it, again?
A. It was a communication and environmental company.
Q. Okay. And had Mr. Nichols invested in that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that business eventually fail?
A. Yes.
Q. And was there a partner that you had in the matter?
A. Yes.
Q. And was the failure of the business the fault of the other
partner?
A. Terry and I talked about it, and we made the decision to
close it up, and we did, because of apparent drug use of my
partner.
Q. All right. Now, did Mr. Nichols obtain some office
equipment at -- when that business was terminated?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. I think I recall that. It's vague.
Q. You recall a copy --
A. Copy machine. Copy machine.
Q. All right. How long did Mr. Nichols stay in the Las Vegas
area where you were living, to your knowledge?
A. He moved there in April of '91 and left in October of '91.
Q. Okay. And where did he go, to your knowledge?
A. I understood he was moving back to help on the farm.
Q. And that's Decker, Michigan?
A. Decker, Michigan.
Q. And Marife Nichols, his wife, where was she at that time?
A. She was with him.
Q. So she had come to Las Vegas, and you met her there?
A. Yes.
Q. They lived there for a short while, until October, '91?
A. Yes.
Q. And to your knowledge, they moved back to the Decker farm;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, where was Josh Nichols during this period of time?
A. He was living with Terry.
Q. Did he move back to Decker at that time --
A. Yes.
Q. -- in 91? Did he live in Decker in the year '92?
A. Yes.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. How long did Terry live in Decker, Michigan, to your
knowledge at that time?
A. The last -- the next time that I -- that I recall that
Terry said he was moving was in 1993, when he was going to the
Philippines.
Q. And what month, if you recall?
A. I think it was January or February, 'cause Josh came to Las
Vegas to live with me.
Q. What month did Josh come to live with you?
A. I thought it was January or February.
Q. And was Terry Nichols with him at that time when they came
to Las Vegas?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did Terry Nichols and Marife leave from Las Vegas to go to
the Philippines?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. How long did Mr. Nichols stay in the Philippines, if you
recall?
A. Not very long. Very short. Because he was back real short
time, 30, 60 days.
Q. And did Mrs. Nichols come with him, Marife Nichols, come
back to the United States?
A. The best I remember, I believe she did.
Q. And where did they come back to, to your knowledge?
A. They went back to the farm.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. Okay. To Decker, Michigan?
A. To Decker, Michigan.
Q. And how long did he stay on the farm in Decker, Michigan,
at that time to your knowledge?
A. Until -- to the best of my knowledge, he came to Las Vegas
in December of '93, after Jason died.
Q. Okay. So he was at the farm in Decker till December, '93?
And then he came to Las Vegas?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was with him?
A. His wife and the baby.
Q. And the baby who?
A. Nicole.
Q. And how old was she, if you recall?
A. About five months. Four months.
Q. And did Terry Nichols tell you anything about why he had
left the farm in Michigan?
MR. MACKEY: Objection, hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. You may answer that.
A. Terry shared with me that he had a -- there was a problem
on the farm. And I -- I knew from Josh that there had been
problems. Terry's brother was . . . not nice to Josh or to
Marife at certain times, and I think Terry shared with me he
Lana Padilla - Cross
just was fed up and he wasn't going to go back to that
situation again.
Q. In your knowledge of Terry Nichols, is he a passive or an
assertive person?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: He can be -- he can be a little of both.
I mean it's kind of hard to say one way or another.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Is he one that is confrontational --
A. No.
Q. -- and engages in arguments?
A. No.
Q. Does he try to avoid arguments?
A. Absolutely.
Q. He came to Vegas in '93, December, '93, then?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how he was employed or what he did at that
time?
A. Well, I'm not sure. I know of a brief employment with -- I
know Marife was working, and I think he was doing some work for
that restaurant, like a bouncer or a door guard or something.
Q. All right.
A. And we baby-sat on occasion for Nicole. That's how --
Q. Was he seeing Josh during that period, also?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. How long did he stay in the Las Vegas area at that time?
A. Well, he was looking to find a farm opportunity.
Q. Did he tell you this?
A. Yeah. He was looking to find something -- 'cause he loved
farming, and it hurt him to leave his farm. And he -- with all
of his knowledge and experience, the best thing for him to do
would be to find somebody else that appreciated his abilities.
And he told me -- the word "sweat equity" was something we knew
because of our background in real estate, and he was describing
and looking into finding a position like that. And the next
thing I knew, he'd found the farm, Donahue farm.
Q. That's the one in Marion, Kansas, Donahue farm?
A. Right.
Q. Tell the jury what you mean by "sweat equity"; and how did
Terry Nichols explain that to you, what he wanted to do?
A. Well, for instance, if you have -- there's a lot of people
who have been in the agricultural business a long time, and
they don't have anyone to take over and continue what they are
doing; so they look to bring somebody in that maybe doesn't
have any money to buy into it but can earn a position by labor,
sweat equity.
Q. All right. And how long did he work at the Donahue farm in
Marion, Kansas, to your knowledge?
A. I think about six months. September of '94.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. Okay. Now, did he keep in touch with you during that
period of time by phone and giving you his address?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he keep in touch with Josh by talking to him on the
phone?
A. Yes. And Josh visited him there. He went and spent a part
of the summer with Terry and his family.
Q. Is that something that you've encouraged over the years
with Josh and Terry Nichols, that the summers be spent
together?
A. Whatever time they could spend together, yes.
Q. Have you sent Josh to Decker, Michigan, during '92 and '93
when Terry was living there?
A. Josh was with Terry in '92.
Q. You're right. You're right.
A. But in '93, I did send him there. And he came home early
because of confrontations on the farm.
Q. Confrontation, not with Terry?
A. No. Terry's brother.
Q. And then you mentioned the trip over the Easter weekend.
Is that something you encouraged, that Josh spend time with his
father?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Now, you also told on direct examination that Terry Nichols
asked if Josh couldn't move to Herington in the summer of '95;
Lana Padilla - Cross
is that correct?
A. Terry had just purchased that home in Herington, and he was
talking like his business was going to do okay and, you know,
everything -- Marife was there, and he was happy. And Josh
could come and be able to stay with him and it would be better
for him there than in Las Vegas.
Q. Is that something you were considering?
A. Well, Terry and Josh are very close, so it would be kind of
up to Josh. And I'm sure that's something that he would never
want to be away from his dad.
Q. Now, speaking of the home that he had purchased in
Herington, did you receive any information or any inquiries
about being a reference for the seller of that home?
A. Yes. I had an inquiry from the owner of the house as far
as using Terry -- or Terry used me as a reference.
Q. And do you recall approximately what period of time in '95
that was?
A. It was in February or early March seems like.
Q. Okay. Do you recall the man's name who contacted you,
Miss Padilla?
A. No.
Q. What did you tell him in regards to Terry Nichols?
A. I spoke highly of him and told him that -- that his
background in real estate and his abilities and, you know -- I
spoke highly of integrity and his ability to make the payments.
Lana Padilla - Cross
I don't know what questions he asked me, but I know that there
was nothing negative I told him.
Q. All right. Now, was there a time back in the fall of '94
when Mr. Nichols explained to you his understanding of the gun
business, the gun show business and how he planned to make
money at the gun show business?
A. Would you repeat that?
Q. Yes, ma'am. In the fall of '94, after he left the Donahue
farm and you've told the prosecutor that he was in Las Vegas a
couple of times in October, '94, did Mr. Nichols explain to you
his understanding of the gun show business and how he hoped to
have income from that?
A. He explained it to me one time. I don't know if it was
then or November.
Q. Okay.
A. Me, but he talked about it.
Q. Did it appear to be something he had studied like he had
other items of self-study?
A. Yes. Absolutely.
Q. Okay. Now, you've told the prosecutor on direct
examination that Terry Nichols was there a couple of times in
October of '94, there in Las Vegas, and you allowed him to stay
there at your house so that he could spend time with Josh.
A. Not in October, he didn't stay. He usually stayed in his
truck -- I don't know where he stayed in October. But in
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November, we talked about him staying with me.
Q. He was there about two weeks before he left, wasn't he?
A. Approximately, yeah. But he wasn't there every night. And
he was there -- he had the privilege to stay or go.
Q. Now, during that period of time in October and November,
did you ever see Terry Nichols with a beard?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did he have a 1-inch growth at all?
A. I don't -- no, not then, no.
Q. Okay. And you say that he stayed in his truck?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Okay.
A. That was my understanding.
Q. Okay. And you said that you went out to the locker and
looked at the truck; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you described it as a dark-blue color?
A. Dark to me is navy. It wasn't navy. It was just blue.
Q. All right. Did it appear to be old and faded out, the
paint job?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. Or did it appear to be a metallic and fairly new-
looking paint job?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned on direct examination that you
Lana Padilla - Cross
had this phone conversation with Terry Nichols during October
of 1994, when you had a problem at home and the two of you
talked on the phone. Is that correct?
A. No --
Q. You had written a letter and asked him to call?
A. November.
Q. You wrote the letter in October and he got the letter --
A. Right.
Q. -- and called you back on a Sunday; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you had been fairly upset with him because you couldn't
get in touch with him, hadn't you?
A. I'm not a patient person, and I wondered why you don't have
a pager or a cellular, so I wrote him a letter -- not a letter:
Call me.
Q. Okay. At that time, Josh was talking about running away;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were very concerned. You wanted Terry to talk to
him?
A. Yes.
Q. When you got the phone call from Terry, you were -- it's
not your normal, peaceful phone conversation that you had with
Terry, was it?
A. That's correct.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. And you started out on him asking, you know, Why don't you
have a place where I can call you, etc.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say that Terry Nichols tried to avoid that
argument?
A. I really don't think we had a real argument. I mean, I
was -- I was vocal and probably came unglued, but he didn't --
no, he didn't really argue.
Q. Right. He wasn't vocal with you when he was talking
about --
A. No.
Q. -- the Waco incident or --
A. No, he was --
Q. Or the --
A. No, he was quiet, but he spoke it, but he was quiet. But
his voice was a little -- he was maybe -- maybe I upset him
because I was so, you know -- telling him what he should do
with his life.
Q. All right. You mentioned that he stated something about
civil unrest; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he state that he was advocating civil unrest, or that
he was afraid and concerned about civil unrest?
A. He didn't say he was advocating it, no.
Q. Okay.
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. It sounded like he was concerned about it.
Q. Because there had been -- did he give examples of American
citizens shooting each other?
A. We talked about the shooting at the White House. And we
talked about an incident at the grocery store. He was
mentioning that people seemed very happy, you know, that were
shopping and maybe -- maybe I was going in the wrong direction
with my life because I was . . . always seven days a
week . . . .
Q. During that conversation, did he advocate any violence
against the government or any agency of the government or any
person in the government or anybody outside the government?
A. Advocate, no.
Q. Have you ever heard him advocate violence against anybody?
A. No. Never.
Q. Have you ever heard him threaten anybody or state that he
wanted to bomb or harm anybody?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Now, you told the prosecutor about another phone
conversation that you had with Terry Nichols in the first of
1995. It was February of '95. And Terry was over in Kansas,
looking for a home, you said.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you told the prosecutor that you mentioned to Terry
that Josh was looking forward to spending the summer and going
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to gun shows with Tim and with Terry.
A. That's correct.
Q. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And Josh knew Tim McVeigh because they had lived together
at Fort Riley for a very short period; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You had never seen Tim McVeigh at the home there in Las
Vegas, have you?
A. No.
Q. In fact, you've never seen him in person?
A. No.
Q. And you mentioned to the prosecutor that sometimes
Mr. McVeigh would call for Terry or for Josh. Did he ever call
for Josh, or did he do it frequently? Tim McVeigh, that is.
A. Well, he's called me direct when he asked me about Terry's
return from the Philippines.
Q. Right, but did he -- he, Tim McVeigh -- ever call for Josh,
to speak to Josh, that you know of?
A. I really -- sometimes Josh would get the calls instead of
me, and I would maybe hear about them a year later. No, you
know, so . . . .
Q. Well, back to that conversation in February, '95 that you
told the prosecutor about. You said that Josh was looking
forward to spending the summer with Terry and Tim and going to
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gun shows?
A. Correct.
Q. And that was something that you were encouraging, wanted
it?
A. Yes.
Q. And why were you encouraging that? Why did you think that
would be a good thing?
A. One reason was because Josh liked being with his father,
and he would be out of school, and it would be better than
leaving him alone when I'm at work.
Q. Okay. Now, what did Terry tell you when you suggested
that; that Josh was looking forward to that?
A. He said that Tim didn't like children and he wasn't going
to be doing gun shows with Tim.
Q. Did he say anything further about his business with
McVeigh, whether or not it was ongoing, it was split, or they
weren't doing gun shows, or what did he say? Anything further?
A. Terry was someone of very few words. He didn't elaborate,
just that they had different business ideas.
Q. Okay.
A. And he -- I elaborate, but he's very -- doesn't speak, you
know, doesn't elaborate on it.
Q. All right. Now, you mention about the trip that you and
your son Barry took to the locker. This is going to be on
December 17?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. December 17.
Q. Is that correct?
A. 1994.
Q. Okay. And the pickup was there at the storage place; is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you used the directions to get into the locker
and the combination; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you opened it up, you've told the prosecutor
about you opened the briefcase; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you recall the wig being a Tina Turner wig?
A. No.
Q. Okay. You know what a Tina Turner wig is?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. We were only in there a few minutes, like I told the
prosecution.
Q. Sure. I understand. I understand. The wig was in a bag,
wasn't it?
A. My recall was everything was in a bag.
Q. Okay. And there was a label on it, "Pretty Party Shop,"
from Las Vegas. Do you recall seeing that label?
A. I don't recall seeing that label, no. I didn't look for
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labels.
Q. Okay. Did you look at the makeup?
A. Not closely, no.
Q. Did you notice that it was white, creamy, theatrical
makeup?
A. I didn't look at it to remember.
Q. Now, in that storage locker, there was a tent; right?
A. A tent?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Could have been.
Q. Okay. And some camping gear?
A. There was things pertaining to fishing and camping, but I
don't know about a tent. I mean camping and a tent go
together, but I don't remember if there was a tent there.
Q. Okay. And you told the prosecutor that Terry had taken
Josh camping to Zion National Park?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's the one in Utah; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's fairly nearby?
A. Yes. I remember when they went because it was cold and
rainy, and I was thinking they're in the back of that truck.
Q. And you saw some bedrolls, some camping gear, and sleeping
gear inside the storage locker.
Did you see a tanker's mask, and do you know what a
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tanker's mask is?
A. No, I don't know what a tanker's mask is.
Q. Did Terry ever show you any of his Army surplus things?
A. The food. MRIs, I think you call them.
Q. MREs?
A. MREs.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't know. He might have.
Q. Did you ever see an olive-drab mask that tankers wear?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. I mean if you showed it to me, I might remember seeing it;
but I don't remember seeing a . . . .
Q. You saw clothing there that were suitable for camping -- is
that correct -- inside there?
A. I saw his orange vest and his fishing and there was some
camping. I don't know about a tent.
Q. Okay. Now, Barry was there also; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Barry was interviewed by the FBI the same day you were,
on April the 21st; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you've read the memorandums of interview that
the FBI made up when they interviewed you -- right -- when they
wrote up the questions and answers?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Have you read Barry's?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that in one of your visits with
Terry Nichols, he told you that the wig was for scaring Marife;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have sent Terry some birthday cards, haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You know what his birthday is?
A. April Fools'.
Q. And is Terry the type that looks to joke and tease around?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that his nature all during your relationship?
A. He was a -- he found -- it was -- No. 1, it was free fun,
to be a practical joker.
Q. And did you notice that he -- he remained that way after
you were divorced, while you kept in touch with him?
A. I can't -- I didn't live with him, so I can't think of any
exact incident.
Q. Okay. During his visits with you, did he ever joke and
tease around, when he came to Las Vegas?
A. Oh, yeah. He had a very dry sense of humor, yeah.
Q. Okay. And his birthday is April the 1st?
A. April Fools' Day.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. April Fools' Day. Okay.
A. Yeah, there's a few episodes.
Q. A few episodes of what?
A. Humor.
Q. Okay. Of course, he doesn't have the sense of humor in
jail when you visit him, though, does he?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, on the time that Terry was there in Las Vegas, right
before he was going to the Philippines, you had called -- you
had written the letter and said, Look, I'm having trouble with
Josh -- when he talked to you on the phone. You said, Look,
why don't you come spend some time with Josh; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he did. Within the week, he was there; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And he spent -- do you recall approximately the day he got
there? We know he left on November 22.
A. It was like the 9th or 10th. Later that week, because we
had a football game, Josh's first football game, and he was
there.
Q. And the two of you went to that game and watched Josh play
football?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. They were rained out.
Q. Oh, were they? Okay.
A. There was a group of us that went; but, yes, we went.
Q. Was there a game during that period of time where a video
was taken?
A. Yes. Oh, we took a video, even though -- we took the video
of everybody kind of around the evenings.
Q. Now, was there a time when you had a brunch with you and
your family and Josh and Terry?
A. Yeah, right after the game. Terry and Josh and me and my
husband and my other sons, and there was about 11 of us that
went to brunch.
Q. Now, during that period of time, did Josh change whatever
problem that you were facing with Josh?
A. He seemed -- I don't -- I didn't -- I didn't see -- I can't
point to any certain incident that would say he did; but just
spending time with Terry, I think helped him.
Q. Okay. He was not threatening to run away at the end of
Terry's visit; is that correct?
A. No.
Q. Now, before Terry Nichols left for the Philippines, did he
state to you some concern about his safety in the Philippines?
A. No. He mentioned his safety to me in 1993.
Q. Okay.
A. When he came back from the Philippines; when I said, Well,
Lana Padilla - Cross
that was short, you know, what are you doing back?
And he said that it wasn't what he thought it was
because it was very dangerous. But that was in 1993.
Q. Okay. Before he left in '94, did he advise you about the
change in the beneficiary of the insurance policy from you to
Marife?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did he talk to you right before he left for the
Philippines in November '94 about some prices on life insurance
policies and health insurance policies?
A. Yes. Yes, he did.
Q. And what was that conversation concerning?
A. He was looking at trying to get some health insurance
coverage for Marife and Nicole.
Q. And did he discuss life insurance policies, also?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's your recollection that he did not discuss the
change of beneficiary?
A. He did not.
Q. Now, you mentioned on direct examination that you were very
concerned after reading those letters; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were concerned about his safety and about the trip
to the Philippines?
A. Yes.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. You were not concerned about any illegal plan that he may
have entered into, were you?
A. No. That didn't enter my mind.
Q. Okay. And did you receive a phone call from Mr. Nichols
during that time, while he was in the Philippines?
A. Yes.
Q. And how was his mood and demeanor during that time?
A. Very good --
Q. All right.
A. -- at that time. And I was relieved because my first --
those first few months, after opening the letters, I just was
fearful of what -- what his state of mind was.
Q. And when he returned on January the 16th, did you then put
the letters out of your mind?
A. Yes.
Q. Was your concern the fact that you thought there was some
possibility of danger in the Philippines, or that because of
his statements that he may -- well, what was your concern in
November '94 and December '94 when you opened -- you opened the
letter in November '94. What was your concern at that time?
A. After reading the letter, to me, it sounded like a last
will and testament. And there was a time at one time when I
was concerned about Terry. He was depressed, and we were
married; and I -- that -- my antennae went out, and I was upset
and concerned because I know how much Josh loves his dad, and I
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just -- I knew he just lost their son, and I knew that, you
know -- that he was trying to -- it seemed like he was happier
when Marife was around, and I was concerned about him.
Q. All right. Then when he returned in January, mid January,
'95, were you concerned any longer?
A. No. His mood -- he was very . . . he was very happy.
Q. Okay. When you spoke to him on the phone in February of
'95, when he told you he and Mr. McVeigh were going to go their
separate ways in the gun show business, what was his mood over
the phone with you at that time?
A. He seemed fine.
Q. And --
A. Yeah, he seemed fine.
Q. And then you spoke to him during the month of April on more
than one occasion, arranging for the trip of Josh; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the return of Josh via plane?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you speak to him while Josh was there that week?
A. Yes.
Q. How was his mood then?
A. He seemed fine. He brought up the issue of the $3,000,
wanted to know if I opened up the account; and we kind of had
that husband -- ex-husband-and-ex-wife talk, but he seemed
Lana Padilla - Cross
fine.
Q. When you say the ex-husband/ex-wife talk, you all were
pretty amicable over the phone, weren't you?
A. And in person.
Q. And Terry had requested that the 3,000 that he was leaving
with you be placed in a safe, in a savings account for --
A. Josh.
Q. -- Josh, and that he requested that you send him a receipt
showing that it had been done; right?
A. Right.
Q. There was no heated discussion about that, was there?
A. No.
Q. Now, did seeing the silver coins in the locker -- were
those type of things that you had seen in Terry's possession
before, during your marriage?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe Terry Nichols as a frugal person, or a
spendthrift?
A. Frugal.
Q. Would you say he's very frugal?
A. He's very frugal.
Q. During the course of your marriage, was Terry able to save
money, rather than spend money?
A. Yes.
Q. And at the termination of your marriage, was everything
Lana Padilla - Cross
divided up and to the satisfaction of both people?
A. Yeah. Yes.
Q. Now, you mentioned on direct examination that you got a
call from the FBI as you were going to work Friday morning; is
that correct?
A. When I got to my office, I checked my pager and there was a
message from them. And they had already called my office, but
I wasn't there yet.
Q. This is April the 21st, Friday; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And this is after you had gotten off the telephone with
Terry Nichols earlier that morning.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you recall approximately what time it was in Las
Vegas that you were talking with Terry on the phone in
Herington, Kansas?
A. That morning?
Q. Yes, ma'am?
A. It was about 7:00 Las Vegas time.
Q. You know the time difference between Las Vegas and
Herington?
A. I think it's two hours.
Q. Okay. So that would have been approximately 9 a.m. in
Herington?
A. Uh-huh.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you who it was that was present at
that time that he couldn't discuss matters on the phone with
you? Somebody was there?
A. I don't remember him saying who was there.
Q. Okay. But he stated that someone was there?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right.
A. I don't remember who he said. I don't remember if he said.
Q. Okay. Now, what happened when the F -- when you returned
the FBI's call?
A. They said they wanted to talk to me regarding the Oklahoma
City bombing. And I was in my office. And I said, "I don't
know anything, but you're welcome to come by."
Q. And they came to your office?
A. They came to my office.
Q. How many came?
A. Two people.
Q. Okay. Who were they? Do you recall the names?
A. Alan Gough and Dan Kolos. Dan -- Dan Kolos, I think.
Q. You got to know them over the next few days; is that
correct?
Did you get to know the head --
A. Yes.
Q. -- of the office there in Las Vegas?
A. Mr. Prillaman?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Did you spend a lot of time with him?
A. I spent more time in his office with Alan Gough, but
Mr. Prillaman would come in and out of the office.
Q. Did you have more than one discussion with Mr. Prillaman?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when they came to the office, you advised them that
you had spoken with Terry that morning and that he's home?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you had the address as 901 South 2nd in Herington.
And his true address is 109. Are you aware of that?
A. I wasn't aware of that until recently.
Q. Do you know whether or not Terry gave you the wrong
address, or if you wrote it down wrong?
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. Did you give the FBI the phone number that you had
for Terry Nichols, also?
A. I think so, because they asked me if I would mind calling
him again; so I probably pulled the number out.
Q. Now, did you call him?
A. No.
Q. When you were being interviewed by them, did you learn that
Terry had gone to the police station to ask questions?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Wasn't there a time when the FBI was interviewing
Lana Padilla - Cross
you and they advised you that: Well, Terry Nichols has gone
down to the police station?
A. Advised me that --
Q. It wouldn't be necessary for you to call.
A. No. They didn't advise me that way. They had me on the
phone with the hostage coordinator, and then they came in and
said, It's okay, because he's turned himself in.
Q. The hostage coordinator was talking to you to get some
background about Terry Nichols so that he could talk to him; is
that correct?
A. Yeah. I guess.
Q. It was at that point that somebody else broke in and said,
Never mind, he's at the police station.
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And you gave them all the information that you were
aware of -- is that correct -- about Terry Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were trying to cooperate the best you could with
the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you spend the next several days with the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you spend the evenings?
A. For a few days, we were in Circus Circus.
Q. And why was that?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. I think -- there was just so much commotion that I believe
that we needed time away from the house, and they felt it would
be better because of the -- the press and if there were any
other people involved or there was any danger to us. They were
looking out for us. Me and my children.
Q. All right. And how many evenings did you stay at Circus
Circus?
A. I think three or four, because then someone from the press
called our room; and then they moved us to a place called the
Excalibur.
Q. All right. How many days -- how many evenings did you stay
in the Excalibur?
A. I think three.
Q. Now, this is you and Josh and who else?
A. Me and Josh. Troy stayed with a friend. Barry was there
for a while. And then there was someone else that was there, a
gentleman named Jerry Mongilla.
Q. And he's with who?
A. He's what?
Q. Oh, never mind. He's not an FBI agent; right?
A. No.
Q. So how many evenings were you placed in hotels and not at
home, then, from the 21st on?
A. Six evenings. We went home on --
Q. Did you -- I'm sorry.
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. We went home on Thursday, so it was six nights.
Q. Had you requested to be able to go home during those times?
A. Not really. At -- towards the end of the six days, we
started talking about some other things, maybe going out of
town and staying. And I just said I want to go home, and we
went home.
Q. Now, during the day, were you at the FBI office being
interviewed?
A. Quite a bit of the time, from my recall. Then there was a
time when they took us to a counselor, you know, different
things. They introduced us to a counselor, and I took Josh.
Q. Okay. When you were being interviewed by the FBI, did you
notice charts on the wall of statements of various individuals?
A. Not those first six days. The charts on the walls came
later.
Q. Okay. Okay. Was there a time when you were meeting with
the head of the office, Mr. Prillaman, when he stated to you
his opinion of the guilt of the defendants?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. First day.
Q. What did he say to you?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. WOODS:
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. What did Mr. Prillaman, the head of the FBI, say to you
that first day on April the 21st?
A. He said that they were both going to fry, they were never
going to see daylight.
Q. And who was he speaking of?
A. Terry and Tim.
Q. And this is the first day on April the 21st.
Okay. Miss Padilla, when you and Terry were operating
your rental business back in Michigan, when you were buying and
selling property and renting it out, did you use a P.O. box
during that period of time?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the purpose of doing that?
A. I don't know if I remember. We had a P.O. box, and I don't
remember why.
Q. Was that for the receipt and the communications with the
renters?
A. Could have been.
Q. You had a mailing address, of course, at your home --
A. Right.
Q. -- where you were living?
A. Right.
Q. But you utilized --
A. I think we thought it was better to get all of our mail
there because of the money coming in and the mailbox on the
Lana Padilla - Cross
road. You don't know, you know -- it was just . . .
Q. But you did utilize a P.O. box in the course of your
business; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, I have just one item.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry for the delay.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, Mrs. Padilla, you mentioned that there was an occasion
when Terry was there during November 1994 and he had a weapon
with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did -- when you were married to Terry Nichols, did
he have weapons in the home?
A. Yes.
Q. Few, or many?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Okay. You're not into weapons?
A. I mean, how many is "many"? I don't remember. I mean, he
had numbers, you know; but that was a guy thing.
Q. Okay. And upper Michigan is an area where outdoor
activities, hunting, etc., is common; is that correct?
A. Absolutely.
Lana Padilla - Cross
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Miss Padilla, let me show you what has been marked for
identification purposes only as Exhibit 1220, D1220.
Have you seen that before?
A. Well, it's my writing, but I -- I forgot about it.
Q. Okay.
A. I wrote this.
Q. You recognize it as your writing?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall an occasion in 1988 when you helped make a
listing of the weapons that Mr. Nichols had?
A. This is my writing, but I don't recall. I don't recall it.
Q. Okay. Do you recall approximately how many weapons Terry
had at the time?
A. According to this, it says --
Q. Well, without --
A. No, I don't.
Q. Excuse me. Don't mention the number.
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you recall during that time of the separation where you
were listing items that you had in the household for purpose of
division or for purposes of inventory?
A. Terry did that pretty much.
Lana Padilla - Cross
Q. And is this for the purpose of separating the assets in
connection with the upcoming divorce?
A. I think so.
Q. Do you recall helping him on some of that, writing down the
records?
A. I could have.
Q. Is that something that the two of you did jointly
sometimes?
A. Well, in September of '88, we weren't living together, but
I still went home. I don't know if he was home or in -- if he
was home on -- for leave, or if he was in Fort Riley, Kansas.
Q. Do you remember what period of time -- He started in basic
training in Fort Benning in May, '88; is that your
recollection?
A. Yes.
Q. And then basic training usually last 14, 16 weeks? Or do
you know?
A. No, I don't know.
Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not Terry Nichols came home
between basic training --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and his assignment to Fort Riley?
A. Yes.
Q. He did come home?
And did you see him during that period?
Lana Padilla - Cross
A. Most likely, I saw him.
Q. Did you discuss with him the division of property for the
upcoming divorce?
A. We must have, because we did a separation after that.
Q. A separation agreement?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You recall seeing that on file?
A. Yes.
MR. WOODS: All right. Your Honor, may it please the
Court, the defense would offer into evidence the handwritten
list of weapons that Miss Padilla agrees is her handwriting;
and by agreement with counsel, we've omitted the bottom.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. The bottom entry is not your handwriting; is that correct,
Miss Padilla?
A. The bottom or on the back. No, the back is not my
handwriting; that is Terry's. The bottom of the front of this
is my handwriting, but then the word "over" is his handwriting.
Q. And you recognize his handwriting, the word "over"?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, by agreement with counsel,
we're only going to offer the front page of this document into
evidence.
MR. MACKEY: That's correct, your Honor. I believe
Lana Padilla - Cross
that's what the witness will say is of her handwriting.
THE COURT: Well, you have no objection to the
document?
MR. MACKEY: That's correct.
THE COURT: All right. D1220 is received, and you're
going to modify the exhibit.
MR. WOODS: Yes, if it please the Court. I'll have
her identify the modification.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Miss Padilla, would you look at that document that's placed
in front of you, which is D1653. Is that a photocopy or a
Xerox copy just of the front side?
A. It's D1220.
Q. All right. D1220?
A. That's my writing.
Q. Is that a photocopy of just the front side?
A. Correct.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Well, we've got -- is it 1220A or
something?
THE WITNESS: It's 1220.
THE COURT: Well, just let me deal with that.
MR. WOODS: It will be 1220A, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So the Xerox and the one
that's going to be received in evidence is D1220A; right?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor; thank you.
THE COURT: Received, 1220A.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, that's all the questions I
have.
Thank you, Miss Padilla.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey, do you have any follow-up?
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, may I approach with a
question?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 82B2 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
Lana Padilla - Redirect
(In open court:)
THE COURT: Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Miss Padilla, I have just a few follow-up questions, if you
wouldn't mind. Early in the cross-examination by Mr. Woods,
you were shown a couple of photographs of your children. Do
you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Those are photographs that you provided to the defense; is
that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And they're dated many years ago?
A. Correct.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you some questions concerning Mr. Nichols'
propensity to gather information and keep track of things. Do
you recall those questions?
A. Kind of, yeah. To gather information, okay.
Q. Have you known Mr. Nichols to be a kind of person who will
get as much information before acting?
A. Yes.
Q. Rather than simply relying on the word of someone, will
gather facts and then make a decision and act?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you recall when we were talking earlier this morning
Lana Padilla - Redirect
about the exchange of money there in January of 1995 when
Mr. Nichols had returned from the Philippines, you had taken
some of the money out, and there was a discussion; is that
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you remember Mr. Nichols offering how it was that you
could resolve that dispute over the money?
A. He said I could give it all back to him and that he
would -- and I was to trust him to give me back whatever amount
he felt I should have.
Q. Did you decline that offer?
A. Yes, I declined that offer.
Q. Do you recall at any point in time over those two or three
days where there was the discussion about the money that
Mr. Nichols made any statement to you about making life
miserable for you?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe that.
A. We were sitting in my living room and talking, and there
was no one else around. And he just said -- he tried -- he was
trying to convince me I should return the total $5,000 and just
suggested that he could make my life miserable. And I just
laughed at him. Like, oh, yeah, really, I was just miserable
for 60 days.
Q. Miss Padilla, you were asked some questions about the
Lana Padilla - Redirect
background and the raising of your children, both Barry, Troy,
and Josh. At any point in time, Miss Padilla, have you
abandoned your son Josh?
A. The word "abandon" is interpreted by different people
different ways. There was a time --
Q. According to you?
A. According to me, there was a time when I had left Josh for
too many days; but I wouldn't call it abandoning him.
Q. You told the jury that Mr. Nichols loved farming. Do you
recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the last farming job that Mr. Nichols had?
A. On the Donahue farm.
Q. And do you remember that he quit?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember what he did when he quit farming?
A. Went to do gun shows with Timothy McVeigh.
Q. You told the jury earlier that in the phone call on
November 6, 1994, that you were urging Mr. Nichols to spend
some time with his son. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. And eventually, Mr. Nichols made it to Las Vegas and then
left from there to the Philippines, do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where he had originally booked his departure
Lana Padilla - Redirect
for that flight to the Philippines, where the departure site
was?
A. No, I didn't know.
Q. Have you since seen documents that show that that was from
Kansas City?
A. Yes.
Q. And not Las Vegas?
A. Yes; correct.
Q. In the conversation on November 6, 1994, you were very
concerned about your son; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's why you had written the letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Isn't it fair to say that in that same conversation,
Mr. Terry Nichols was not concerned about Josh?
A. I don't -- I don't think that he wasn't -- I don't think he
wasn't concerned about Josh. It just seemed like there was
something else that he wanted to say. And he didn't really
want to talk about Josh.
Q. Instead what he talked about was Waco, the White House, and
other events; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You described that conversation before like two ships
passing in the night?
A. Yes.
Lana Padilla - Redirect
Q. Mrs. Nich -- Mrs. Padilla, do you know that Marife Nichols
went to the Philippines in September of 1994? We talked about
that before. You recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall when it was that she came back to the United
States?
A. I believe it was in the spring of '95.
Q. So she was gone for six months or so?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would include the month of October, 1994; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would include Halloween; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. On Halloween, 1994, did Mr. Nichols use a ski mask, wig,
makeup, or any other items to scare you or Josh or any of the
family members?
A. I can't speak for Josh. But not me.
Q. The ski mask that you've told this jury you saw in the
storage shed in Las Vegas was black; is that correct?
A. It was dark. I thought it was black.
Q. You're not confusing it with an olive tanker mask?
A. Is an olive -- I don't know what an olive tanker mask is.
Q. I'm going to show you what was previously admitted into
evidence as Defense Exhibit 1549. Is the ski mask that you saw
in the storage locker like this, black in color, and full face?
Lana Padilla - Redirect
A. Well, this looks much more dramatic because it's on
somebody's head, but I just looked at it. But it was a full
face.
Q. Black in color?
A. Black in color.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you some questions about employment that
you and Mr. Nichols shared back in the early 80's with an
agency called A. L. Williams. Do you recall those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. And he asked you about a slogan that that insurance agency
had. Do you recall those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. In November of 1994, when you opened the letter that you've
shown this jury and read the words that are on that letter, did
you think for a moment of A. L. Williams?
A. When I opened the letter in 1994, I did not think of A. L.
Williams.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing further.
MR. WOODS: Just a couple, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Miss Padilla, the prosecutor's asked you about that phone
conversation on November the 6th, '94, and asked you was Terry
Nichols concerned about Josh Nichols during that call. Did he
Lana Padilla - Recross
immediately come to Las Vegas after you talked to him?
A. Within a few days he came.
Q. And he asked you if you were aware that he was scheduled to
fly from Kansas City to the Philippines. But he changed
that --
A. That's right.
Q. -- to depart from Las Vegas; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he was able to spend at least two weeks there with Josh
before he left; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And when you related the conversation about Terry
Nichols saying, "I'm going to make your life miserable," was he
threatening you in any manner?
A. Terry's very soft-spoken. And for him to say -- see, that
statement didn't mean anything to me at the time.
Q. You stated that --
A. I mean, I just ignored it because I was -- like I said, I
was traumatized because of the letters anyway; so when he said
that, it was like, oh, big deal, right.
Q. You had already been miserable because you were worried
about him --
A. That's right.
Q. -- for two months while he was in the Philippines?
A. That's right.
Lana Padilla - Recross
Q. You did not take it as any threatening statement to you,
did you?
A. I didn't take it as threatening then, no.
Q. Is Terry Nichols a type of person who would do favors for
people when they asked?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, Miss Padilla. I appreciate
your answering the questions.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Is she now excused?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, she's under subpoena by us;
and we would like her just to be available back in Las Vegas in
the event we needed to call her.
THE COURT: All right. She can go home, then.
MR. WOODS: Yes, of course.
THE COURT: So you can return back. Consider yourself
still under subpoena as a witness. Therefore, you should not
be talking about your testimony or anything connected with the
case with other witnesses.
All right. You can leave. You may step down.
We'll take our midafternoon recess, members of the
jury, during which, of course, please follow the cautions
regularly given and regularly reemphasized of avoiding
discussion about any of these witnesses or anything about the
case, waiting until you hear it all. You're excused now. 20
minutes.
(Jury out at 3:27 p.m.)
THE COURT: Are you going to have the Manning
deposition this afternoon?
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we have -- yes, one witness
before we'd like to offer that.
THE COURT: I don't remember the playing time of that.
MR. MACKEY: And it varies because it was in two
stages. But I think it's about an hour.
MR. RYAN: It's 97 minutes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. And your objection is of record
with respect to that.
MR. WOODS: I don't think there's anything on there we
object to.
THE COURT: Oh.
MR. WOODS: Hopefully they've cut out -- 97 minutes, I
don't remember it being that long. Hopefully they've cut out
Mr. Nigh's questions.
MR. RYAN: We have cut out everything that includes
from Nigh's, including Mr. Mackey's redirect after Mr. Nigh.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. RYAN: We talked about making it shorter, but
defense --
THE COURT: Well, as long as we're certain that it's
edited for this case.
MR. RYAN: It is, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Those objections are taken care of, if
your Honor is talking about the earlier question that we
litigated.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: We still maintain those objections.
THE COURT: That's why I wanted to make this record
show that you were not waiving the previous written objection
that was argued and decided.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: And I'm doing that just because appellate
courts sometimes get confused.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Mr. Woods and I will get this act together
sometime, your Honor.
THE COURT: Court's in recess, 20 minutes.
(Recess at 3:28 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:46 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 3:47 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Next witness.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. Lois Miller.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Lois Miller affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Lois Elaine Miller, M-I-L-L-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Ms. Miller, where do you live?
A. I live in Henderson, Nevada.
Q. What city is Henderson near?
A. Las Vegas.
Q. And what do you do for a living?
A. I am a manager of a mini storage.
Q. And how long have you been the manager of a mini storage?
A. 13 years.
Q. What is the name of the mini storage for which you're the
manager?
A. AAAABCO Mini Storage.
Q. Is that four As, a B, C and an O?
A. Yes.
Lois Miller - Direct
Q. And you're here because Terry Nichols rented some storage
space from you in November of 1994?
A. Yes, a man named Terry -- Nichols -- did rent from me.
Q. And you know that because of the documentation?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that transaction?
A. Well, I mean, I know the document; but as far as
remembering the person, no.
Q. How many storage units do you have at the storage -- the
mini storage unit?
A. Over 2,000.
Q. Excuse me?
A. Over 2,000.
Q. And are you the only person that leases these facilities?
A. I'm the manager, and then I have assistants.
Q. Let me show you what's been marked for identification as
Exhibit 1906. Can you recognize that document?
A. Yes. That's our lease agreement.
Q. Is that the lease agreement with Terry Nichols?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Government would offer Exhibit
1906.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1906 received, may be shown.
BY MR. RYAN:
Lois Miller - Direct
Q. You should have it on the screen up there at the witness
chair there, Ms. Miller.
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to try to make it a little easier for everybody
by zooming in on the front top portion of that lease. Do you
see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Whose handwriting is this?
A. Mine.
Q. What did you record here about this lease transaction?
A. The gentleman's name, the unit number that I rented him,
and the date and the amount.
Q. All right. And who was the -- what's the name that was
used to rent this storage unit?
A. Terry Nichols.
Q. And what storage space was rented?
A. Q106D.
Q. And what was the date?
A. The 16th day of November of '94.
Q. Now, what -- for what time frame was the storage unit
rented for?
A. It was rented from November of '94 to February of '95.
Q. Now, if we could, let's zoom to the bottom of the page and
talk about the handwriting there. Could you take the pen there
on your desk and show me what handwriting on this portion of
Lois Miller - Direct
the document is not yours?
A. The signature -- I'm supposed to go down under here.
Q. There you go.
A. This is not mine, or this, or this.
Q. And whose handwriting is the balance of the writing on this
bottom portion of the exhibit?
A. All except what I have circled is mine.
Q. Now, at the top of this -- what's being displayed has the
name of Lana Padilla. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the purpose of that on this form?
A. She's an alternate person. That's somebody that I could
notify if he failed to pay his rent.
Q. Is the alternate person also entitled to access to the
storage unit?
A. She is if he wants her there, yes.
Q. And who provided you that information?
A. Terry did.
Q. In terms of the address provided, that is -- that was
provided also by Mr. Nichols?
A. Right.
Q. And that is your signature over there where it says "L.
Miller"?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, if we could, let's turn to Exhibit 1904. It has not
Lois Miller - Direct
been admitted in evidence. If you'd click on the side of the
pen there, Ms. Miller, on the side of your black pen.
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Click on the side of it.
There you go.
Tell us what we're looking at here when we view
Exhibit 1904.
A. Okay. That is also a lease agreement for a lot where
Mr. Nichols had his GMC pickup.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Exhibit 1904.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 1904.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, again, Ms. Miller, we'll zoom in to the top here to
allow a little easier access for reading. And again, is this
your handwriting?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. All of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, again, what information does this tell us about the
storage unit being -- or the storage space that was being
rented by Mr. Nichols?
A. Okay. It shows that it's rented by a person named Terry
Nichols and the Lot No. 3, and it was rented on November 26 --
22 of '94, and it was paid for January 22 of '95, and he parked
Lois Miller - Direct
a GMC truck.
Q. And do you recall that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Not the person coming in, but do you recall the GMC pickup
being there?
A. Yes.
Q. At your storage space?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, if we could look down at the bottom of the page, 1904.
Again, would you circle for us the handwriting on Exhibit 1904
here that is not yours.
And the balance of the handwriting is yours, I take
it?
A. Yes.
Q. And you received the information again from Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Again, we see this alternate person named Lana Padilla.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So the same information conveyed to us about the storage
shed would apply here?
A. Yes.
Q. With respect to the pickup truck.
A. Yes.
Lois Miller - Direct
Q. Would you describe that pickup truck as shiny in color, or
dull?
A. I don't really remember.
MR. RYAN: That's all I have, your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
Could we leave that on the screen, please.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, Mrs. Hasfjord.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello, Ms. Miller.
A. Hello.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers that's
been appointed to help out Terry Nichols.
You're looking now at the screen; and do you see the
name Lana Padilla written in there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, did you write that in there, or did your customer
write that?
A. Actually, the customer wrote that one. That is printing,
and I don't print.
Q. Okay. So that would have been written by Mr. Nichols.
Right?
A. Uh-huh.
Lois Miller - Cross
Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell me, what does it mean "the
alternative person" in your business? What does that person --
A. In my business, like if Mr. Nichols failed to pay his rent
and I couldn't get a hold of him at the address that he had
given me, then I could get a hold of Lana to tell him that his
rent is overdue and I was going to sell his stuff if he didn't
pay it.
Q. Okay. And the address that you had then for both the
renter and for Lana Padilla, is that 7160 Nordic Lights
address; correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And they gave you a local Las Vegas phone number that went
along with that?
A. Right.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much. I have no further
questions.
MR. RYAN: Just one, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. In connection with these lease agreements to Mr. Nichols,
did you require some showing of identification?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what did you require?
A. A driver's license.
MR. RYAN: That's all. Thank you, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Nothing further.
THE COURT: I take it you're excusing the witness.
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'd like to call Mr. Eric
McKisick.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Eric McKisick affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Eric McKisick, M-C-K-I-S-I-C-K.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. McKisick.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Where do you live?
A. I live at 11909 Blue Way Avenue, Oklahoma City.
Q. What do you do down in Oklahoma City?
Eric McKisick - Direct
A. I work for the Social Security Administration.
Q. What do you do for them?
A. I'm a staff assistant with them.
Q. And where were you born and raised, sir?
A. I was born and raised in Forest City, Arkansas.
Q. Could you briefly describe your education for the jury?
A. Sure can. I graduated from Forest City High School in
Forest City, Arkansas, in 1977, from there went on to Harvard
University and graduated from there in 1982.
Q. And what was your degree in at Harvard?
A. American history.
Q. Are you married, sir?
A. Yes, sir, I'm married.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. I have two children, Justin, 11, and Sheridan, 4.
Q. And what did you do after graduating from college?
A. Well, shortly after I graduated from college, I started
working for the Social Security Administration in May, 1984.
Q. And have you been working for the Social Security
Administration ever since?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Could you describe for us your career in the Social
Security Administration?
A. Sure. In May, '84, I was hired as a claims representative
trainee; and I worked in that capacity in the Forest City,
Eric McKisick - Direct
Arkansas, office until 1988, at which time I was promoted to
supervisor. And I worked in the Dallas North District Office
from that point until January, '91.
January, '91, I was promoted to program specialist,
systems analyst in the regional office in Dallas; and I worked
in that capacity until I moved to Oklahoma City in 1994 as a
staff assistant.
Q. That is why you moved to Oklahoma City, because you became
a staff assistant?
A. That's correct.
Q. Where in Oklahoma City were the Social Security offices
located in 1994 when you moved there?
A. The Social Security office was located at the Alfred P.
Murrah Building, 200 N.W. 5th Street, Room 111.
Q. That's where your office was?
A. That's where our office was.
Q. In April, 1995, were you still working in the Murrah
Building, sir?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Were there any other members of your family that spent
their days in the Murrah Building?
A. Yes, sir. I had a daughter who was part of the day-care
center for a while. She was a drop-in; and fortunately, she
did not drop in that day. She was sick and unable to go to the
class or day care.
Eric McKisick - Direct
Q. What was your position in April, 1995, in the Social
Security Administration?
A. I was detailed as an operations officer for the Social
Security office there.
Q. What does that mean, operations officer?
A. As an operations officer, I was supervisor of the four
supervisors and second-line supervisor for the rest of the
staff.
Q. What did the Social Security office in the Murrah Building
do?
A. Well, the Social Security office in the Murrah Building,
like 1300 other Social Security offices across the country,
provides support and benefits to individuals who are retirement
age, survivors of deceaseds and disabled. We pay benefits to
about 43-plus million people each month.
Q. How many employees worked at the Social Security
Administration there in the Murrah Building?
A. 62.
Q. What were the hours of operation?
A. Our hours of operation for our employees was 7 a.m. to
5 p.m. For the public, we opened the doors from 9 a.m. and
closed at 4 p.m.
Q. When you say you opened the doors to the public at 9 a.m.,
what does that mean exactly?
A. We opened the -- we started interviewing our customers at
Eric McKisick - Direct
9 a.m. On occasion, we might open a little bit early and may
have a service representative talk to people before 9:00, but
usually at 9:00 our windows opened and we started interviewing
our customers.
Q. So that was when the first appointments generally were, at
9?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What would happen with regard to members of the public
before 9:00 in the morning?
A. Usually they traveled into our north entrance on 5th Street
and reside in that area inside the building for a while; and we
open the doors somewhere before 9:00, and they can come in and
sit down or wait in line.
Q. Where would they wait?
A. In our reception area.
Q. What would be the time of day that the maximum number of
members of the public would be in the Social Security
Administration space in the Murrah Building?
A. We usually get our biggest rush of people when we open the
doors, at 9 a.m.
Q. Would you describe what kind of business the people who
come in to talk to people at the Social Security Administration
would have at 9:00 in the morning?
A. Well, we have several different things that we provide our
customers, chief of which -- one thing we're known for is our
Eric McKisick - Direct
Social Security numbers; and many young mothers would come in
with children to apply for Social Security numbers, the first
Social Security number for their child. Others, like wives who
had recently gotten married, would come in to get a Social
Security card with their new name on it, same number but a
different name. That's usually the biggest --the bulk of our
walk-in traffic, those that are not scheduled for appointments.
The rest of our customers are usually appointments;
that is, they are applying for retirement benefits, survivor
benefits, or disability benefits.
MR. GOELMAN: I'm going to ask to have displayed the
first floor of Government's Exhibit 952.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Tell me if this is the accurate depiction of the way the
floor plan of the first floor of the Murrah Building looked in
April, 1995.
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Now, I think you have a light pen over there. Could you
place it right on the screen and draw a circle around the
waiting room where members of the public would be at 9 a.m. in
the morning.
Are you putting it right on the screen, Mr. McKisick?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, is that area -- was the Murrah Building divided
into two parts, with one part being nine stories high and one
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part being just one floor high?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how is that reflected here on the first floor? Which
part of the building was in the main part?
A. From about here all the way over, you'll see -- this little
area was like a little -- little steps, some steps here. Right
here would be where the building would be separated from the
nine stories' segment and the one-story east wall, east
segment.
Q. So the area to the left the line that you just drew would
be where the one portion of the building was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the area to the right would be the nine floors?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That includes the waiting room?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. What would be inside that waiting room?
A. Inside the waiting room we'll have two rows of chairs going
north and south and one row on the south wall of about four or
five chairs that will be facing the north wall but with their
back to the south wall.
Q. What would those chairs be for?
A. Our customers who are in the office waiting for
appointments or walk-in traffic with -- waiting for their
number to be called or their name to be called.
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Q. How many chairs were there in the waiting area of Social
Security Administration?
A. There were approximately 20 or so chairs.
Q. Would they all be occupied by people with appointments with
the Social Security Administration?
A. Not necessarily. They could be individuals who come in
for -- right off the street for a Social Security card.
We also had some stanchions in there that allowed
people to line up in a queue so they would wait for their
chance to talk to one of our service representatives at the
front windows.
Q. Mr. McKisick, could you click the side of your pen a couple
times to erase those marks.
MR. GOELMAN: Kathi, we're done with this exhibit for
a moment.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. McKisick, did you go to work on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What time did you arrive at the Social Security
Administration that day?
A. Approximately 7:30 a.m.
Q. What did you do when you got there?
A. Usually I just checked to see what I have planned for the
day. I knew that at 9:00 I had an appointment with John Smith
from Langston University, and at 9:15 we had implemented a
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management meeting, a regular management meeting to inform our
new boss of what things were going on in the office.
Q. Okay. Who is John Smith of Langston University?
A. He was a gentleman sent over from the university to review
some of the equipment that we were about to excess. We had
some equipment that was outdated, some typewriters because we'd
come into the computer age. We had more PCs and we were going
to provide those to educational institutions like Langston, so
he was there to review and see how the equipment worked.
Q. What did you do at 9:00 that morning?
A. Well, at 9:00 I went out to the reception area to call for
Mr. Smith, see if he was there so that he can start looking at
the equipment.
Q. Before April 19, 1995, did you know Mr. Smith?
A. No, sir, I had never met him.
Q. So what did you do -- what did you see when you went out
there to the waiting area?
A. Well, when I first went out to the waiting area, I noted
that the room was pretty filled with a lot of people, both
standing and seated. Seemed like all the chairs were occupied,
and we had a little line. I called Mr. Smith's name. And a
gentleman at the back of the room, which would be the west side
room, was standing near one of the counters and reading a
brochure or pamphlet. And when I called his name, he
immediately put the pamphlet down and started moving toward me.
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And at that time, I introduced myself to Mr. Smith.
Q. What did you do after you introduced yourself to Mr. Smith?
A. I invited him inside the building or office proper and took
him to the place where the equipment was stored.
Q. Okay. Mr. McKisick, you testified that at 7:00 is usually
the time when employees would start arriving?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What's the latest that a Social Security employee could
come to work in April, 1995?
A. They can arrive as late as 8:30; and if they arrive at
8:00, they have to work till 5:00. We have flexible beginning
and ending time for our employees.
Q. But at 9, everyone is there?
A. Everyone is there.
Q. After you met Mr. Smith, where did you two go?
A. We went to an area not too far from my cubicle in the rear
of the building.
Q. What were you doing in that area?
A. Well, that's where we had some typewriters; and what he
wanted to do was see how those typewriters operated, to make
sure that they were something that he wanted to take back with
him.
Q. That was the property you were excessing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
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A. We were excessing a couple of typewriters as well as some
computer controllers. First thing he wanted to see were the
typewriters to make sure that they operated properly.
Q. And when you got back to that area, what did you do?
A. Well, first of all, took a look at them and found some
paper for them to put in to roll through the typewriter and
plugged them in. And shortly thereafter, we started -- started
checking out the equipment to make sure it was working.
Q. And what happened just after you started checking out that
equipment?
A. Well, at that point an explosion occurred, and we were
plunked into darkness. It was a loud roar. And it was a
concussive force that kind of moved us or at least me around
and almost off my feet.
And at that point, couldn't see anything, but we could
smell horrible smell and very thick air. I mean --
Q. What do you mean by "thick air"?
A. It was not something you really wanted to breathe but
something maybe easy enough to taste or eat. It was that
thick.
It -- the floors were -- felt like we were kind of
like in an earthquake or something. We found out later it was
not an earthquake but rather a bomb.
Q. What happened after that?
A. Well, I was moved around a little bit, and I felt around me
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because I couldn't see. I felt what I come to find out later
was a conduit from the light fixtures that had fallen -- the
ceiling was not above us anymore but rather at our feet.
We were able to stumble around a little bit. The
floor was uneven because of all the ceiling tiles and light
fixtures and things like that that were no longer where they
were supposed to be.
Q. Was Mr. Smith where you had left him?
A. Pretty much, yes. He called out to me, asking me not to
leave him. And I said, "No, I won't leave you." And I turned
around and then started hearing other things or other people.
I guess the first person I heard was one of our
supervisors who was in a little conference with another one of
the employees. Her name was Gwen Greise, and she was unable to
get herself out of her office area.
The filing cabinets -- or actually, the -- the area
behind her had fallen forward and pinned her in; so she said
she couldn't get out, so I went to her assistance and gave her
some aid. I was able to move around enough of the equipment,
furniture, to ease her out.
Q. What did you do after you got her out?
A. Started walking further and then started hearing other
noises from another employee there by the name of Anita Edge.
She was one of our claims representatives. She was in a
similar predicament; that is, her office area had combined to
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cause her -- well, keep her from getting out of the area.
Q. Did you help her out as well?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What was the floor like, Mr. McKisick?
A. It was a jumble. It was what should have been flat was
uneven, and there was all kinds of equipment strung around,
cabinets. We walked over, around, pushed aside trying to get
out of the office.
Q. Was it dry?
A. Unfortunately, no. No. We -- well, I heard a -- water
running or what I found out later was it was water from -- our
chilled-water supply, kept the air-conditioning cool. It had
been ruptured, and the water was falling from there. And it
was flowing into the office area and rising rapidly.
Q. Mr. McKisick, from the time you started working in the
Murrah Building in 1994, had you ever had a fire drill there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have certain responsibilities in the case of a fire
drill?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What were they?
A. In the event of a fire drill, we would -- as one of
management staff, I would be one of the last people to go out
the door, first making sure that certain areas of the office
were clear of people, like the rest rooms, both the public and
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our employee rest rooms, as well as reception areas, and travel
out that way and make sure the door was closed on the way out.
Q. Did you attempt to do that on the morning of April 19?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Were you able to?
A. I found out very quickly that the drill was not as good as
you would think. During normal time, normal course of business
we could get out of the area without a problem; but that day
was a little bit different.
There was -- it was impassable. The rubble kept us
from moving in that direction. Couldn't -- still couldn't see,
so we were basically feeling our way around; and it was just
impossible to pass through. So I was unable to complete the
normal assignment that --
Q. When you couldn't get out the normal way, what did you do?
A. Well, after a while there was a light that started shining
in the back, back of us on the east side. Found out later that
one of our claims representatives, Rex Irwin, had found his way
or made his way through the rubble in the back and was able to
escape through the east door, which was a fire door. And that
light was enough to steer us in the right direction, so we
turned -- pivoted, turned back around and went straight through
till we were able to get through and out the door.
Q. You got out that way?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
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Q. Did you stay out of the building at that time?
A. Well, for a few minutes. I caught my breath and breathed
some clean, fresh air.
There were some people that started to arrive, fire
trucks, firemen. It had taken us quite a few minutes to get
through and out there, so there was a congregation of people.
One was a marshal who wanted to assist in the evacuation,
helping us out, but he didn't know the lay of the office
building; so I volunteered to go back in there and help him
with trying to locate people and stuff like that.
Q. How many times did you go back inside?
A. Two to three times. I cannot recall exactly.
Q. And during any of those trips, were you able to locate any
other survivors?
A. As I was coming in, others were helping out some other
people; and I was unable to spot anyone else. It was still
very dark. I had, I think, a very small penlight which was
given to me by someone outside. A nurse had arrived there
pretty quickly on the scene. But I wasn't able to see or spot
anyone to help out, really.
Q. Did the Social Security Administration lose any of its
people on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, sir. We lost 16 people.
MR. GOELMAN: I'm going to ask Agent Tongate, with the
Court's permission, Government's Exhibit 1194, which are the
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pictures of those 16 people.
THE COURT: All right. Same position?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may do it.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. McKisick, I'm going to call on you to read the names of
each the 16 members of Social Security that died on April 19
and tell us what they did for Social Security before their
death.
A. The first person you see there is Richard Allen. He was a
claims representative for us, former supervisor, good resource.
The next person you see is -- well, Sandy Avery. She
was a development clerk as well as our data entry operator.
Next one is Oleta Biddy. She worked as one of our
service representatives.
Carol Bowers is the next person. She was an
operations supervisor. She was responsible for some Social
Security claims representatives as well as our reception
service rep. unit.
The next person is Sharon Chestnut. She was a Social
Security claims representative.
Next person was Kathy Cregan. She was a service rep.
data review technician.
The next person is Margaret Goodson, who was a
supplemental security income claims representative.
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Next one is Ethel Griffin, who was also a service rep.
data review technician.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you.
Agent Tongate, could you just put the next chart up,
please.
THE WITNESS: The next person is Ron Harding. He was
a service representative.
Raymond Johnson was an individual who worked for us
through the National Indian Council on Aging.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. But he worked for the Social Security Administration?
A. Well, he was assigned to us; but he really got his paycheck
from the National Indian Council on Aging.
Q. Okay.
A. Derwin Miller, who was a Social Security claims
representative.
Charlotte Thomas served as our appointment clerk.
Mike Thompson served as our supplemental security
income claims representative and worked sometimes as our field
rep.
Bob Walker was a Social Security claims
representative.
Julie Welch was a claims representative trainee, and
she was bilingual; that is, she spoke both English and Spanish.
And Steve Williams was another supervisor who was
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the -- in charge of our -- part of our Title 2 CRs as well as
another section of service rep. data review technicians.
Q. How many supervisors did the Social Security Administration
lose on April 19?
A. Two. Half of the unit I supervise.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Agent Tongate.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. I just have one more area I'd like to explore with you,
Mr. McKisick.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In addition to the 16 people from your agency who died on
April 19, 1995, were there also visitors in your space who died
that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have an appointment at Social Security
Administration -- do you have an appointment system?
A. Yes, sir, we have an appointment system that we check on
each day to determine the people who were scheduled to meet
with us regarding their applications for benefits.
Q. And are some kind of computer records kept of this
appointment system?
A. Yes, sir, we do.
Q. After the bombing, did you go back and research who had
appointments at the Social Security office in the Murrah
Building on April 19, 1995?
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A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. I want to show you Government's Exhibit 1009. Do you see
that on your screen, sir?
A. Yes, sir, I can.
Q. What's that?
A. This is our appointment listing for April 19, 1995, for
Office 783. Office 783 is our three-digit code for Oklahoma
City.
Q. Is that a record that Social Security Administration kept
in the regular course of its business?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1009, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Now, were the people -- would the people accompanying the
people on this list be listed anywhere in Social Security's
records?
A. No, sir. We'd only list the individuals who were scheduled
for the appointment that day.
Q. And so people who had drop-in appointments, they also would
not be listed?
A. They would not be listed.
Q. Why don't you just go across the top of this sheet here and
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explain each of the categories, each of the columns.
A. Okay.
Q. Can you read it? Is it close enough?
A. Yeah, I can read it. It's a little small, but we can go
from the beginning.
At the top it shows the appointment listing for
April 19, '95, Office 783. The first column or heading is "NH
name." "NH" is an acronym for number holder, the person who
has worked and paid into the Social Security number.
The next field or column is "NH SSN," number holder of
Social Security number.
The next column is "CL name." "CL" is an acronym for
claimant.
The next column is a little bit wider. It's "claim
types," and it shows the type of benefits the individual is
applying for.
Q. Can you give us an example of that?
A. Sure. In the first instance, we have -- the first
number-holder name is T. Argo; and the number-holder name is a
field that allows for six characters, so Argo would be the
person's complete last name. First name is initial T., started
with T., their Social Security number. And then the claimant's
name is next, same last name, and the first initial is P. for
Pamela, I think.
The next field is the claim type. It shows "LSDP."
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"LSDP" is an acronym describing the lump sum death payment, a
one-time payment after a number holder has died.
The next field shows the appointment type. In this
field, we have two possible characters or numbers, 1 and 2.
The 2 indicates an in-office appointment. The 1 would indicate
appo