The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Friday, November 21, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 86)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:45 a.m., on the 21st day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, SEAN CONNELLY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY
MEARNS, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, and REID NEUREITER,
Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308, Denver,
Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Good morning.
ALL: Good morning.
THE COURT: Are you ready to proceed?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Jury in at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
JURY: Good morning.
THE COURT: You'll recall we were hearing testimony
from Agent Smith when we recessed, and we'll continue now with
his testimony.
Agent Smith, you may resume the stand.
(Stephen Smith was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: Mr. Woods, you may resume your
questioning.
CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Agent Smith.
A. Good morning, Mr. Woods.
Q. When we left yesterday at 5:00, we were discussing the fact
that you were in front of the Department of Public Safety and
you were with Agent Price, Gillispie, and Foley; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were concerned about a hostage situation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were able to communicate -- one of the four of you
were able to communicate with Supervisor Chornyak -- how do you
pronounce his name?
A. Chornyak.
Q. Chornyak, in Kansas City, and he was able to call in to the
Department of Public Safety to determine whether or not there
was a hostage situation; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. Now, on direct examination, you told the prosecutor that
there was discussion amongst the four of you outside about the
fact that you had no arrest warrant at that time. Do you
recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were aware, were you not, that arrest warrant was being
sought during that day?
A. No, I was not. Not prior to the interview.
Q. You were aware, were you not, that a Special Operations
Group had been dispatched out of Kansas City to Herington,
Kansas; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, from Wichita and Kansas City.
Q. What was the purpose of the presence of the Special
Operations Group in Herington, Kansas?
A. They were to surveil Terry Nichols.
Q. Surveil him for how long?
A. It was not determined.
Q. Wasn't the instructions "surveil him until arrest warrant
was obtained"?
A. I don't know those instructions.
Q. You were on the radio, you were communicating with
everybody on the scene, were you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your radio pick up any transmission that was transmitted by
the S.O.G. and all the agents, weren't you?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. You were aware, were you not -- who's David
Tubbs?
A. He's the Special Agent in Charge in Kansas City.
Q. He was your ultimate superior within that division of
Kansas, wasn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And is that the same David Tubbs that got promoted
to Atlanta?
A. Yes, he worked in --
Q. To a larger office; right?
A. He is still in Kansas City. He worked on a case in
Atlanta.
Q. And is that the Olympic bombing case, the Richard Jewell
case that he was in charge of?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. So he's back in Kansas City now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The -- were you aware that he dispatched the S.W.A.T. team
between 12:30 and 1:00 p.m. out of Kansas City to Herington,
Kansas?
A. I was aware that the S.W.A.T. was dispatched to Herington.
I did not know what time, no, sir.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. Now, what was the purpose of the S.W.A.T. team coming to
Herington, Kansas?
MR. MACKEY: Objection, Judge.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. And it's your testimony you had no idea that arrest warrant
was being sought for Mr. Nichols on that day?
A. Not prior to the interview, no, sir.
Q. Just all these agents were in Herington for some unknown
purpose, you don't know what the purpose was; is that correct?
A. The agents coming to Herington were going to surveil Terry
Nichols.
Q. And you don't know what the purpose of that was?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, yesterday -- have you had a chance to review your
testimony, the transcript of your testimony from yesterday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Yesterday you spoke to the prosecutor on direct
examination, and you said that Mr. Nichols told you he believed
in the views expressed in The Spotlight; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's going to be reflected in your notes; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. We'll get to those notes in just a minute.
And yesterday you told the prosecutor on direct -- let
Stephen Smith - Cross
me read it to you, when you were talking about what Mr. Nichols
told you that he did at the DRMO, when Mr. McVeigh dropped him
off. You recall that exchange of testimony that you gave?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You stated: "Mr. Nichols got out of the -- got out of his
pickup truck and looked at items for sale in a building and
was -- they decided to meet up, to have Timothy McVeigh come
back at approximately noon that same day. When Timothy McVeigh
did not show up at noon, Terry Nichols went into another
building where he had to sign in in order to look at items
inside that building also."
Is that going to be in your notes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. We'll get to those notes.
"Did he tell you what he did once he signed into this
building?
"Answer: Yes, he signed into this building and then
looked at the items that were for sale inside and bid on some
of those items and came outside after approximately an hour of
looking at those items, and Mr. McVeigh showed up shortly after
that."
That chronology of two buildings is going to be in
your notes, that's your testimony?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, you mentioned that during your testimony
Stephen Smith - Cross
yesterday on direct that this was the first time anybody's ever
asked you for a copy of your notes, when Mr. Nichols asked you
after you read them to him that first break, when the two
agents came in. Do you recall that testimony, that the two
agents, Crabtree and Jablonski, came in, and you read the notes
to Nichols?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you stated to Mr. Mackey, "This is the first time
anybody's ever asked me for my notes."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, in April, '95, you had been an agent for --
what, '91 did you get out of training academy?
A. November of 1991.
Q. So you'd been an agent for, what, 3 1/2 years?
A. No. Yes, sir, 3 1/2 years.
Q. All right. And you told the jury that you've worked on
numerous, numerous cases, bankruptcy fraud, kidnapping -- let's
see what type of cases you said you worked on. Kidnapping,
white-collar crime, bankruptcy fraud, theft of government
property, bank robberies, fugitives, drug cases, numerous,
numerous cases; is that your testimony?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many times have you testified in trial in front of a
jury like this?
A. Two or three times.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. No; how many times, sir?
A. I don't recollect specifically. I would assume it was two
or three times.
Q. What case was it that you've testified in a Federal Court
in front of a jury before? What was the name of the defendant?
A. David Gottlieb.
Q. All right. What was the nature of the offense?
A. Bank robbery.
Q. And was that your case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. What was the second case?
A. Another bank robbery trial in Springfield, Missouri, in
1992, and the defendant was Bubba Cheek or Donny Wiggins.
Q. And those were two of your cases, you were the case agent
on those; is that correct?
A. I was not the case agent on the second trial down in
Springfield.
Q. So you've had one case where you were the case agent that
went to trial in front of a jury?
A. And then I would change that right here, sir, I'm sorry;
but David Gottlieb ended up pleading, so we did not have a
trial. We pled that trial.
Q. You just thought that you appeared in trial and testified
in front of a jury?
A. Excuse me, sir, I misspoke.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. How many times have you actually testified in front of a
jury in a federal trial, sir?
A. In a federal trial, it would be one time.
Q. All right. Now, you stated to the prosecutor that you have
interviewed hundreds and hundreds of individuals; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many targets of the investigation have you personally
interviewed?
MR. MACKEY: Objection to -- use the term "target"
without foundation.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Do you know what a "target" is of an investigation in the
FBI terminology?
A. The subject of investigation.
Q. All right. How many times have you personally interviewed
the target of an investigation?
A. I would estimate 40 to 50 times.
Q. 40 to 50 times.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how many of those people got indicted?
A. All of them.
Q. Okay. What . . . what were the names of five of the cases,
sir?
MR. MACKEY: Objection, Judge.
Stephen Smith - Cross
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. And Mr. Nichols asked you for a copy of the notes; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there was a copy machine there in the police station,
wasn't there?
A. Mr. Nichols did not ask for a copy of the notes for a
specific time. He just said if he could get a copy of the
notes --
Q. I didn't ask you that, sir. The question was was there a
copy machine in the Department of Public Safety?
A. I assume so, yes, sir.
Q. You know that some articles were copied on that machine,
don't you, that belonged to Mrs. Nichols?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you knew that there was a copy machine in that
Department of Public Safety, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you copy the notes for Mr. Nichols?
A. No, sir.
Q. You had no intention of providing copies of his (sic) notes
to him on that day or the subsequent day, did you?
A. He did not condition the request to having --
Q. Sir, did you have any intention of giving Mr. Nichols a
Stephen Smith - Cross
copy of his (sic) notes on that day or the next day?
A. A copy of my notes?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No.
Q. Mr. Nichols told you, didn't he, that he had heard on the
news -- and that's why he was in the Department of Public
Safety -- he had heard on the news that his name had been
mentioned as someone wanted in connection with this case?
A. He had mentioned that he had heard his name and his
brother's name, yes, sir.
Q. And he had heard the press conference of the Attorney
General, Janet Reno, hadn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you're aware that she was stating they were going to
seek the death penalty for everybody involved in that case, are
you not?
A. I had not seen that press conference, and I was not aware
of that, no, sir.
Q. And yet you thought that was strange that Mr. Nichols would
want a copy of his notes on that day?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, do you recall during the testimony yesterday when
Mr. Mackey asked you did he tell you something, and you would
Stephen Smith - Cross
always answer, "No, he did not"? Do you recall those numerous
exchanges?
A. Excuse me?
Q. Yes. In your direct examination with Mr. Mackey yesterday,
do you recall numerous questions of Mr. Mackey when he said,
"Did Mr. Nichols tell you" something, and you would say, "No,
he did not"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Do you recall the exchange where Mr. Mackey
asked you concerning the phone call that Mr. McVeigh made to
Mr. Nichols, Mr. Mackey asked you, "Did he tell you how long he
had had phone service?"
Your answer was, "He did not."
Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ask him during the course of that interview how
long he'd had phone service?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Mackey asked you, "Did he tell you how Mr. McVeigh had
his phone number?
"Answer: No, he did not tell us how."
Did you ask him that question?
A. No.
Q. Do you know how "information" works, when you call up the
phone company and ask for information?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You ever done that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall on the discussion about Mr. Nichols' trip to
Oklahoma, Mr. Mackey asked you: "Did Mr. Nichols give you any
reason as to how it was he knew the time of travel from his
home to Oklahoma City?
"Answer: Yes. He said he determined that it would
take five hours to get from central Kansas down to Oklahoma
City.
"Question: Did he give you a basis for how he knew
that?
"Answer: No, he did not."
Did you ask him about that?
A. Mr. Nichols said that he had decided that it would take
five hours to get down to Oklahoma City.
Q. And Mr. Mackey's question was, "Did he give you a basis for
how he knew that?"
And your answer was, "No, he did not."
Did you ask him?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Concerning the questions about Mr. Nichols telling his
family he was going to Omaha, do you recall the question where
Mr. Mackey asked --
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I object to the use of the
Stephen Smith - Cross
transcript in this fashion without further foundation. He's
simply reading into the record yesterday's proceedings.
THE COURT: Objection is overruled.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. When you advised on direct examination that Mr. Nichols
had told his family he went to Omaha -- do you recall that
testimony?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. Mackey asked you, "And did he give you a reason for
making that statement to his family?
"Answer: No, other than he said he did it because
Terry -- because Tim McVeigh asked him to do that.
"Question: Did he give you any reason as to why he
didn't simply lie to McVeigh as opposed to his family?
"Answer: No, he did not."
Did you ask him that question?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you remember the discussion about Mr. Nichols telling
you, driving around downtown Oklahoma City, and you mentioned
"that building"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall the question, "You told the jury that
Mr. Nichols said he had driven by 'that building,' the Murrah
Building. Did he explain to you how he came to use that
description?
Stephen Smith - Cross
"Answer: Yes. He said that he had driven past that
building a couple of times, and it was obvious in the context
of the interview that it was the Alfred P. Murrah Federal
Building.
"Did he tell you why he remembered that building in
particular?
"Answer: No, he did not."
Did you ask him that question?
A. No, I did not.
Q. "Question: Did he give you any basis for explaining why he
even recognized the building in order for him to describe it to
you?
"Answer: No, he gave no basis."
Did you ask that question?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know of many people in the country on Friday who
wouldn't recognize that building?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Do you recall the questions about leaving the car,
Mr. McVeigh left the car in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. "Question: You told the jury he expressed to you that he
had a feeling that the car was going to be left in Oklahoma
Stephen Smith - Cross
City; is that right?
"Answer: That's correct.
"Question: Did he explain what gave him that feeling?
"Answer: No, he did not."
Did you ask him that question?
A. No, sir.
Q. "Question: Did he give any description of the vehicle that
was being left behind in Oklahoma City?
"Answer: Mr. Nichols said that the way that Timothy
McVeigh talked, he thought it was a larger model and that he
was leaving it in Oklahoma City.
"Question: Did he tell you why he thought or would
describe to you that it was a larger model car.
"Answer: He did not explain that."
Did you ask him that question?
A. We asked him that. He said that the way that Timothy
McVeigh talked, it appeared that it was a larger model.
Q. The question was "Did he tell you why he thought that?"
"Answer: He did not explain that."
Was that incorrect; he did explain it?
A. No further than what he had said, that Timothy McVeigh had
told him.
Q. Did Mr. --
"Question: Did Mr. Nichols explain how he knew that
information about the vehicles and the cost, given the amount
Stephen Smith - Cross
of contact as he reported to you between himself and
Mr. McVeigh?"
"Answer: No, he did not."
Did you ask him that question, sir?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, you recall the questions and answers about Mr. McVeigh
going from Arizona to New York?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That trip?
Question was, "Did Mr. Nichols tell you why it was
that Mr. McVeigh would go to Kansas in order to go to New York?
"Answer: No, sir, he did not."
Did you ask him that question?
A. No, sir.
Q. "Question: Did Mr. Nichols tell you or mention to you at
any point in time that he had any reason to believe that he had
been observed by anyone while driving downtown Oklahoma City on
Easter Sunday?
"Answer: No, he gave no reason."
Did you ask him that question?
A. No, sir.
Q. At that time when you were doing the questioning, were you
aware of the camera at the Regency Towers?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Have you since become aware of it?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you seen the video and the photographs from it?
A. I've seen the photographs from it, yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall the discussion that you had with Mr. Mackey
about the trip from Oklahoma City to Junction City about the
conversation inside the truck?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. "Question: What was Mr. McVeigh's response, according to
Terry Nichols, when he said, 'What are you going to do, rob a
bank?'"
"Answer: His response, Mr. McVeigh's response,
according to Mr. Nichols, was that, 'No, but I've got something
in the works.'
"Question: Did Mr. Nichols explain to you why he
first questioned Mr. McVeigh about robbing a bank in response
to something big, why did he come up with that?
"Answer: No, he did not."
Did you ask him that question, sir?
A. No.
Q. Now, you recall the discussion you and Mr. Mackey had about
going to DRMO, being dropped off, and then Mr. McVeigh picking
him up and taking him back to McDonald's?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. Mackey asked the question: "Did Mr. Nichols
explain why, after waiting for the pickup, that he was prepared
Stephen Smith - Cross
to drive out of his way to drop Tim McVeigh off?
"Answer: No, he did not."
Did you ask him that question, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall the questions and answers concerning
Mr. Nichols going to the cable outlet on April the 20th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. "Question: Did he tell you he had not had any cable
service prior to April the 20th, '95?
"Answer: That's correct.
"Question: Did he tell you why on that day he chose
to request cable service?
"Answer: No, he did not."
Did you ask him that question, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, at the end, you and Mr. Mackey talked about this
letter and your recognition of the phrases in there, "as far as
heat, none that I know of," and the phrase "go for it"; do you
recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you stated that Mr. Nichols was asked the question but
that he gave no response.
A. That's correct.
Q. And you felt that was significant, those phrases, didn't
you?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you put those in your notes anywhere, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, being 3 1/2 years out of the academy, you were
somewhat fresh in your mind about what they were teaching in
the academy, weren't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And don't they teach you to write down everything you can,
especially early in an investigation because you don't know
what's going to be significant and what isn't significant?
A. That's correct.
Q. They teach you to be as thorough as you can and try to
capture every word, since you're not going to use a tape
recorder, try to -- teach you to capture every word, don't
they, sir?
A. That's what these notes reflects.
Q. Okay. We'll get to those notes. We're going to get to
notes in just a second.
During the course of that interview that started
shortly after 3:00 p.m. and ended shortly after 12:00 p.m.
(sic), you came upstairs on occasion, didn't you, during those
lengthy breaks?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You stated that there were three breaks for two hours each?
A. Three breaks totaling two hours.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. Totaling two hours. And that wasn't just to come up and
drink a Coke, was it?
A. No, sir.
Q. In fact, you were advising your superiors who were present
on the scene of what you were learning in that interview,
weren't you?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you were getting feedback from what agents were
learning out in the field, weren't you, so that you could go
back and answer questions -- ask questions?
A. That's correct.
Q. Who was present upstairs that was superior to you in the
FBI hierarchy?
A. In Herington?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. ASAC Watson, SAC Tubbs.
Q. So Mr. Tubbs had arrived on the scene to personally take
charge and supervise this part of the investigation there in
Herington; is that correct?
A. Mr. Tubbs showed up that evening. I do not know what time
he showed up.
Q. He was the man in charge for the FBI; is that correct?
A. He was in charge of the Kansas City division, yes, sir.
Q. All right. Who else was present?
A. Tom Price, Mike Shannahan. I believe those were the four
Stephen Smith - Cross
individuals that were superior to me, of a supervisory
position.
Q. Those were all supervisors, were they not?
A. Two supervisors and then Assistant Special Agent in Charge
and then SAC.
Q. Mr. Price was a supervisor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What about Gillispie -- was he a supervisor?
A. No, sir.
Q. He was just a street agent like you?
A. Just a street agent, like me.
Q. How many years had he been in?
A. I do not know.
Q. Who else was upstairs that you noticed during the course of
that evening?
A. When we would go upstairs, Jack Foley and Dan Jablonski
would go downstairs.
Q. No, sir, who was upstairs?
A. Besides those people I mentioned, I don't have a
recollection besides those people.
Q. Did U.S. attorney for the state of Kansas come?
A. Mr. Rathbun showed up at some point during that evening,
yes, sir.
Q. All right. And tell the jury what the U.S. attorney's
function is and who -- where does he fit in in the scheme of
Stephen Smith - Cross
directing the FBI?
A. The U.S. attorney is the prosecutor who handles the
investigation or handles the case in court; and Mr. Rathbun was
the U.S. attorney for Kansas at that time.
Q. In fact, he is the top federal law enforcement official in
that district, isn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He's certainly over Mr. Tubbs, isn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you had a number of supervisors upstairs to seek advice
from; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were able -- the FBI was able to communicate with
the SIOC in Washington where even higher officials were
available to give direction, were you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. You have those notes back in your possession,
sir?
A. Yes, 1924.
Q. Thank you.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may it please the Court, the
defense would offer into evidence Government's Exhibit 1924.
MR. MACKEY: Judge, I would object unless we're going
to offer the typewritten versions and the 302 itself.
MR. WOODS: I've compared the typewritten versions,
Stephen Smith - Cross
and they're not accurate or complete.
THE COURT: Well, it seems to me for completeness they
both should be in if one is going to be in.
MR. WOODS: May I be heard at the bench on this, or I
can argue it here, your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead and argue it.
MR. WOODS: I have looked at the typewritten version
and compared it with this version here. It is not accurate.
THE COURT: Well, the witness is the one who adopted
it. This is the witness's notes. The witness also adopted the
typewritten version.
Is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
So it's my ruling that one can't come in without the
other.
MR. WOODS: The typewritten notes only, not the 302.
We object to the 302 which was --
THE COURT: I didn't say anything about the 302.
MR. WOODS: Well, I think he offered both, your Honor.
THE COURT: You said the typewritten version,
Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, I did. That, and also the 302.
MR. WOODS: We object to the 302.
THE COURT: I don't think the 302 is relevant.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
Stephen Smith - Cross
THE COURT: So take your choice, Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Well, we certainly want the notes in, and
given the Court's ruling, we'll accept the agent's version of
the typewritten notes.
THE COURT: All right. That's 1926; right?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'll receive 1924 and 1926.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, Agent Smith, just for clarification purposes so the
jury can follow this, you've got the pages numbered on the top
right; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you've written on the back sometimes. Did you use
just the front page initially? You'd have front page of 1 and
then you went to the front page of 2 in a chronological
sequence as you were interviewing Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then when did you come back and fill out the back of
page 1?
A. If I could take a look at the notes --
Q. You don't have a copy there?
A. I have a copy in the other room.
THE COURT: Well, maybe we have another copy.
MR. WOODS: I asked that he be provided a copy --
Stephen Smith - Cross
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
MR. WOODS: -- overnight, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have them there now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. The question is, Agent Smith -- you started out on page 1,
and then you got a page 2, but there's writing on the back of
page 1. Did you -- when you were interviewing Mr. Nichols, did
you write on the front page of page 1 and then turn over and
write on the back of page 1 and then number the second page
page 2, or how did this come about chronologically?
A. It looks confusing, and in actuality, it's not. What I did
is I took notes on the front of page 1, on the front of page 2,
the front of page 3, on the front of page 4 to the bottom where
the notation is "about 4:12 p.m., Dan and Scott."
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Then I went back to page 1, and we reviewed the notes with
Terry Nichols.
Q. So the first four pages are what you took before
Mr. Jablonski and Mr. Foley -- or Mr. Crabtree and Mr. Foley
(sic) came in; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. All right.
A. I went back to page 1, and I made additions to things that
Terry Nichols had omitted the first time he had the information
Stephen Smith - Cross
he had given us. So those notations are on the margins of the
first page, the second page, and the third page and the fourth
page.
Q. Just the front part, the margins?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
A. And then I went to the fifth page, the front of the fifth
page.
Q. When you resumed the interview?
A. Yes, sir, after we went over the notes and made other
clarifications in the margins. We went to the fifth page. I
went and I took notes on the front of the fifth, sixth,
seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, and eleventh.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. And then we took our first break at 6:10. So the first 10
pages -- excuse me, the first 11 pages are notes from 3:15 or
3:18 in the afternoon until 6:10.
Q. Just the front of those 11 pages?
A. Just the front of those pages.
Q. All right.
A. We took a break, we resumed the interview at 7:07, and then
I went to the front of the document -- the front of the notes
at 7:19 as noted on the front page of the notes, and I say that
we're going to go over the story. So Scott Crabtree and I
telling Terry Nichols that we're going to go over the whole
Stephen Smith - Cross
thing again at 7:19 p.m. At 7:19 p.m. I change the color of my
pen. I was taking all my notes in blue. On the front page, I
write "7:19, go over story," and I change to a black pen. So
all the notes after 7:19 are in black, and all the omissions
and clarifications for things that we had gone over are in
black.
So we went on the first page at 7:19, the front of the
second page at 7:19, in black; and then I went to the closest
page to continue the note recitation, and that would be the
back of page 1.
Q. That's the closest page to continue it?
A. Yeah. If I'm on the front of page 2 and it's in a -- if
I'm on the front of page 2, writing notes in black ink after
7:19, I'm going to go to the back since it's right there, on
the back of page 1, to write the continuation of things that he
was mentioning.
Q. Okay.
A. And then I went to the back of page 2, the back of page 3.
Q. All right.
A. And then we took our second break --
Q. All right.
A. -- at 8:14 to 8:44. We came back in and went back through
the interview -- I'm still on the back of page 3.
Q. Okay.
A. Same color, black pen. And in the back of page 4, the back
Stephen Smith - Cross
of page 5, back of page 6, and the page of page 7; and then
bottom of that page is when we took our last break at 10:21 as
noted on the back of page 7. And from there I would go to the
front of page 12 in black ink after the break.
Q. What break was this, the 10:20 break?
A. 10:20 to 10:50 -- 10:21 to 10:50. Excuse me, I went to the
front of page 11. If you look at the front of page 11, the
last notation is 7:17 p.m. before I go to the first page at
7:19, and then I catch up again at 10:50 after our break. So
it appears confusing, but it makes perfect sense because I
changed color pens to show where in the interview we were
talking about these things; and then I would go to the back of
that page because it was relevant to the information on the
front of that page.
Q. All right. So we can then -- excuse me. You had more?
A. Yes, sir. And then from 10:50 until the end of the
interview, I took notes on pages 11 through 15 in black ink.
And then at the end of the interview, I put numbers on all the
pages in the black ink 'cause that was at the end of the
interview, and I just numbered the front of the pages as being
1 through 15 as noted in the upper right-hand corner that you
were mentioning earlier.
Q. And did you number the backs of the pages at all?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Thank you for that explanation. And let's go through these
Stephen Smith - Cross
notes, then.
Well, let me first, before I get into that. When you
went inside the office, Mr. Nichols was there with his wife,
Marife Nichols, and his infant daughter; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Agent Price was with you, your supervisor?
A. He was not my supervisor, but he was a supervisor; and he
was with me, yes, sir.
Q. And who made the search of Mr. and Mrs. Nichols?
A. Jack Foley did a pat-down search of Mr. Nichols, and Marife
Nichols was searched by a female matron from the Herington
Department of Public Safety.
Q. And you observed that?
A. I observed Jack Foley do a pat-down search of Terry
Nichols, and I was aware that a female matron was coming. I
did not observe her doing a pat-down search of his wife,
Marife.
Q. Did you observe the search of the child?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, during the time that you're downstairs with
Mr. Nichols, where was Mrs. Nichols?
A. She was upstairs, I believe.
Q. Did you separate them immediately and take Mr. Nichols
downstairs?
A. Mr. Nichols told his wife that he was going to speak with
Stephen Smith - Cross
the FBI agents, so we followed him downstairs.
Q. And some FBI agents stayed with Miss -- Mrs. Nichols; is
that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Let's start with your notes, Agent Smith. And
I'll try to zoom in here so we can make sure we've got the
whole page; and we'll just start at a top, and then we'll have
to come up to catch the bottom part.
And if you will, sir, read for the jury -- just start
at the top and make sure that the picture on the screen there
depicts everything so that nobody's missing anything. If you
will, read for the jury what that says. This is your first
page; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I'll put up a little bit here so that we can see. That's
numbered "SS," that's Steve Smith, No. 1; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Sir, if you will read for the jury what each
line says.
A. All 22 pages?
Q. We're going to start with this page, sir.
A. I'm going to read from the exhibit here. It's the same as
on the screen. Is that --
Q. It's my understanding that's an exact copy that you're
looking at.
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir. "4-21-95, Herington public safety office, 3:15,
searched Nichols in office."
Q. All right. Go ahead. Next line.
A. Do you want me to read them in sequence as to what Terry
Nichols told us --
Q. Yes, sir.
A. -- or just read them --
Q. I assume these notes are in sequence; is that correct?
A. They are. That's why I mentioned that. That's why I
mentioned that the 7:19 is not going to be right after 3:18, of
course.
Q. We understand that. You've explained that. The next line
is "Terry Lynn Nichols."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what's the next line?
A. "DOB 4-1-55."
Q. And did you check his driver's license to determine if that
was true?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see his driver's license that night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see any forms of identification that night of
Mr. Nichols?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't ask for his wallet or anything out of his wallet?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. What's the next line?
A. "SS," for Social Security, "371-68-4869. Not use it
anymore."
Q. And the next line?
A. "Random number on DL because not use SSAN."
Q. And did you check the Social Security number at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. What's the next line?
A. "Present job" -- "present job" is a black ink, so that's
later in the interview -- "buy and sell used military items."
Q. When you say "that's later in the interview," just that
line that says "present job" is the thing that's later in the
interview; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This other information you're getting right up front from
Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did he say?
A. "Buy and sell used military items, ammo cans, hand shovels,
ax, surplus sandbags."
Q. Okay. Now, what are these crosses or Xs you've got in
front of each statement?
A. That would be in regards to answer to a question or another
comment that Mr. Nichols made in regards to another issue as
Stephen Smith - Cross
opposed to just going --
Q. That's the way you separate the sentences or the topics --
is that correct -- so you can tell where a new sentence or
thought is starting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So you have a cross there, but nothing's next to it.
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. What's the next cross?
A. "Go to shows."
Q. What was that in response to?
A. Where he sells his military surplus, he goes to gun shows
and sells his items.
Q. Okay. What's the next statement?
A. "No one else at home."
Q. What was that in response to?
A. We asked him if anyone was still at his house, at 109 South
2nd in Herington.
Q. All right. What's the next statement?
A. "Left house and heard name on radio news."
Q. And the next?
A. "Manhattan station, heard name two people from Michigan."
Q. "Heard name" and what else?
A. The --
Q. The extra information is what you added later; is that
correct, sir?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir, when we went over --
Q. All right. We'll come back to that.
A. Okay.
Q. We want to do this in the sequence that you did it.
A. Right.
Q. Is that the most fair way?
A. Right. And that's how it's depicted on 1926, is the -- the
Exhibit 1926 is chronologically as to how the interview went.
Q. All right. So the next thing you said was "two people from
Michigan"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he's relating what the television news is stating; is
that correct?
A. No. At this time, he's mentioning that a radio broadcast
from the Manhattan, Kansas station had mentioned that two
people from Michigan were being sought in connection with the
Oklahoma City bombing.
Q. All right. What's the next statement?
A. "James Nichols, a brother."
Q. And the next?
A. "Terry Lee Nichols."
Q. Is that the two names that he's mentioning from Michigan?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the next statement that you took from him at that time?
A. "In process of being arrested. James is my brother."
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. And did he state that he saw that on the news, or what --
how does that fit in with your interview at 3:00?
A. He said he was confused a little bit. He said that he
didn't know if Timothy McVeigh was in the process of being
arrested or if he heard that the two people from Michigan were
in the process of being arrested. He did not know. It
was . . . .
Q. What's the next statement you took from him?
A. "Came to PD to see what's what. Do not want another Waco."
Q. And then you've got a cross with a new thought?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What does that say?
A. "Stopped at surplus store, need shingles, trade tools for
shingles."
Q. And the next?
A. "Got out of car, had a feeling that I was being followed,
got back in."
Q. Okay. Now, you've got some circles over here on the left
that are in blue. What are those, sir?
A. The circles in blue are things that Terry Nichols had
omitted to tell Jack Foley and I and that he told Jack Foley,
I, Dan Jablonski, Scott Crabtree during the note review.
That's why it's in blue there, and there are just other things
in the margin. Some of them are in blue, some of them are in
black. The black would be after the 7:19, and the blue would
Stephen Smith - Cross
be when the four agents were in the room going over the notes.
Q. So it's fair, then, in your sequence to come back to that,
when we get to that chronology at 7:00; is that correct?
A. In black, yes, sir.
Q. Well, these are in blue.
A. Right. That was after 4:12.
Q. So we'll come back to those; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. We're trying to do it the way you did it.
A. Right. And that is depicted on 1926.
Q. Yes, sir. All right. We'll come back to that, then.
So you went to the top of page 2; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And show you that this is page 2. We've got page 2 up
here; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, what did he next say to you at that time?
A. At the bottom of page 1, it says, "Got back in." The top
of page 2 says, "car and headed to PD." The left-hand corner
there.
Q. Okay.
A. So that "car and headed to PD" is continuation of car and
headed to police department.
Q. You're speaking right here?
A. Yes, sir.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. All right. What's the next statement?
A. "James Douglas Nichols. Decker. Decker, Michigan."
Q. What about these statements over here in blue? When did
they get added?
A. They came at the note recap, note review at 4:12. The
information in the upper right-hand corners, not the black at
the top -- excuse me -- it ended, but the blue in the
right-hand corner.
Q. All right. Did you go across the page as you were
interviewing Mr. Nichols there initially?
A. No. I wrote down "car and back to PD," and then the next
thing was "James Douglas Nichols," and then "Decker, Michigan."
Q. And "large two-story frame house." What does that refer
to?
A. That was something that Terry Nichols had neglected to
mention to us originally, and that was something that we added
later on after the 4:12 note review: that James Douglas Nichols
had a large, two-story frame house, and that was the one that
Timothy McVeigh had stayed with he and his brother for a month,
and he estimated anywhere from two to six weeks.
Q. What did you next ask Mr. Nichols, then, following your
time sequence?
A. I asked him who his brother was. That was the crux of the
information from the Manhattan station news broadcast on page
1.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. Yes, sir.
A. And we asked who his brother was, then he went into
specifics about James Douglas Nichols, Decker, Michigan.
Stepson -- Terry Nichols' stepson, Josh Nichols.
Q. You're saying that Terry Nichols said that Josh Nichols was
his stepson?
A. That's what he said. That at times his stepson -- or at
times his stepson lived in that farmhouse, also.
Q. Okay. Go ahead.
A. And then the next statement was "Used to live with him in
Decker, Michigan."
Q. Who was Chase Nichols here that you've got over on the
right side?
A. Chase Nichols was something -- an individual that Terry
Nichols told us about after the note recap; and he says that
Chase Nichols was his brother's, James's -- James Nichols' son,
Chase Nichols who apparently sometimes lived up at that
farmhouse, also. But that was after the two other agents came
in the room.
Q. All right. Well, let's stick with what you're getting from
Terry Nichols here initially. Your notes say that Terry
Nichols told you that Josh Nichols was his stepson?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. What did he say next?
A. Used to live with him in Decker, Michigan, about two years
Stephen Smith - Cross
ago, 3616 North paren. Van Dyke, me, wife, child, child died of
suffocation at house."
Q. And next?
A. We went into the FD 395 advice-of-rights form.
Q. And that's the 3:26 entry; correct?
A. 3:26 p.m., yes, sir.
Q. So we're still within the first few minutes of the
interview?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how do you reflect that here?
A. I reflected it that at 3:26 is when Jack Foley started
initiating the advice-of-rights form, and I said that read
form -- excuse me -- "read us form out loud," meaning Terry
Nichols read the form out loud to us.
Q. Yes, sir. And the next entry?
A. It says, "interrogation was like the Nazis, I do not like
that word."
Q. All right. And the next entry is at 3:43.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you explained yesterday on direct that that delay was
because Mr. Nichols was waiting and deciding whether or not to
continue to talk; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Wasn't there also delay because one of you in that bottom
basement had gone upstairs to find out what to do because he
Stephen Smith - Cross
hadn't signed the form?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall whether or not someone contacted Washington
to inquire what to do because he wouldn't sign the form?
A. No. No, sir.
Q. Are you saying that did not happen?
A. You asked me if I knew that. I don't know that. I did not
know that, and I do not know that.
Q. You're saying you have not learned that in the course of
this investigation?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know who Howard Shapiro is?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who is he?
A. I believe he's chief counsel for the FBI.
Q. At that time, he was the top lawyer in the FBI; was that
correct?
A. That's what I'm assuming, yes, sir.
Q. Are you saying that he wasn't contacted during that time
period to inquire what to do since Mr. Nichols won't sign the
form?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. At some point in time, did you receive instructions to
Stephen Smith - Cross
continue the interview, sir? During that period of time, did
someone come down and tell you to continue the interview?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who was present there in that room other than Mr. Nichols
and yourself?
A. Jack Foley.
Q. That whole period of time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And no one left?
A. No, sir.
Q. And no one came in --
A. No, sir.
Q. -- and gave you any instructions?
A. No, sir.
Q. That's your testimony?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So the next entry's at 3:43?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what happens then?
A. "Refused to sign the FD 395." That's the advice-of-rights
form.
Q. All right. And what's the next entry?
A. "Saw McVeigh Sunday."
Q. Now, these entries over here on the right: Are they not
part of the statements you're getting from him at this time,
Stephen Smith - Cross
3:43?
A. No. The information we got from him after 3:43 was that he
had last seen McVeigh in November. And then after the 4:12,
when the other two agents came in and we did the recap or
reviewed the notes, he said that his last contact prior to
Sunday was in November or January.
Q. Well, let's stick with what he's telling you right here.
"Saw McVeigh Sunday." What's the next entry?
A. "In my eyes, I did not do anything wrong, but I can see how
lawyers turn stuff around."
Q. All right. What's the next entry?
A. "I did not know nothing." The entry in between there was
given to us during the note review.
Q. So you had skipped a line, and then you come back later and
fill in that line, this particular line here?
A. Yes, just like I skipped a line after the 3:43 notation, I
skipped a line between "But I can see how lawyers turn stuff
around" to the next statement that he made, "I did not know
nothing."
Q. And you're saying Mr. Nichols used a double negative there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What's the next entry?
A. "Hesitant BC" for because "lawyers can turn stuff around."
Q. Did you ask him what he meant by that?
A. No, sir.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. What's the next entry?
A. "Heard McVeigh is in custody." "On the news" was added at
the note review.
Q. What's the next entry?
A. "Not see any hotel in JC."
Q. And the next?
A. "Do not know if he rented a Ryder truck."
Q. And the next?
A. "Saw in OK City on Sunday."
Q. Is that a continuation of the sentence there?
A. Which sentence?
Q. Well, you've got a cross designating a new subject. "Saw
in OK City on Sunday." What's under that?
A. "Picked him up there and my TV. He called me and said I've
got car problems and if you want your TV --" go to the next
page, which is right there. It says, "-- Come pick me up." If
you can spot it. It's kind of difficult. But it's the first
line right here, which is a continuation of the previous page.
Q. So when you got to page 3 here, you started on this line?
A. Yeah, the top line of the page.
Q. All right. And all this other stuff is added later?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So what's the next entry, then, as you were
interviewing him in time sequence?
A. "Last November, I dropped TV off with my wife and babies
Stephen Smith - Cross
equals Vegas."
Q. Wife and babies?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. What's the next entry?
A. Two months ago --
Q. Can you remove that line you've got there.
A. Oh, excuse me. Sorry.
The next entry was: "Two months ago, mentioned in a
letter if you are in the vicinity of Vegas, you can pick my TV
up."
Q. Okay. And the next entry?
A. "I came back" home. Or "came back here." Excuse me.
Q. Okay. And the next?
A. "Dropped him off at JC McDonald's."
Q. "JC" stands for?
A. Junction City.
Q. And you've got a continuation over here of "on Sunday"?
A. "On Sunday late at night or early Monday morning."
Q. Is that an addition later?
A. No, that was actually at the first mention of the drop-off
at McDonald's -- was he said that he dropped him off on Sunday
night, late at night at a closed McDonald's, or early Monday
morning.
Q. Okay. And then the next entry?
A. "Apparently left car in OK City."
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. What's he referring to there?
A. That McVeigh had apparently left his vehicle in Oklahoma
City.
Q. Okay. And the next entry you took from him?
A. "He was vague on a lot of things. Lot of small talk."
Q. Next?
A. "Knew him in the Army. It seemed like he was different
when he got out."
Q. And the next?
A. "He seemed nervous. He gets that way sometimes in the
past. Did not seem quite that bad in the Army."
Q. And the next?
A. "Drove down by self, five hours, then five hours back with
McVeigh."
Q. Then the next?
A. "I cannot see why he would do it."
Q. The next?
A. "He said he was going to get inheritance shortly from his
grandfather."
Q. Then the next?
A. "He would have money to do whatever he wanted."
Q. Okay. And were these things on the margins; and then this
stuff at the bottom: Was that added later?
A. Yes. The things on the top, the things on the left margin,
the things on the bottom, are all in blue, so that was in the
Stephen Smith - Cross
note recap session after 4:12. Things in black in the
right-hand margin and the bold in the middle of the page are
after 7:19, when we go over the story for the third time.
Q. Okay. And we'll get to that in that time sequence. So you
should be on top of page 4 now; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So just so you're accurate, it's page 4 -- is that right --
with your initial on it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And again, you're separating the answers or the change of
subjects with these crosses on the side?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What's the next topic you go into?
A. "When I go to gun shows, people say ATF and FBI murdered
all the people in Waco. Let them say it."
Q. The next entry?
A. "Hear four or five people at show who say government
getting out of hand. I feel that way also on occasion."
Q. Okay. And the next?
A. "On trip up from Oklahoma City, it is possible he mentioned
Waco incident, not recall specifics."
Q. Okay. And the next?
A. "Said he got a room in JC, McDonald's was closed, but the
Denny was opened."
Q. So he's saying here that McVeigh told him he had a room in
Stephen Smith - Cross
JC?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's early in the conversation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. "McDonald's was closed." Now, what's he talking
about here? Where are you in the time sequence of asking
Mr. Nichols questions?
A. As you can see at the bottom of the page, it's before the
4:12, before the two other agents come in. I am asking him a
question -- well, I'm sorry. Terry Nichols said that Timothy
McVeigh was hungry again, they had stopped at the McDonald's
prior to that -- McDonald's off of 77 in Kansas, and he said
that McVeigh was hungry again and that the McDonald's was
closed, so that he could not eat there, but that Terry Nichols
noticed that the Denny's was up the street and that it was
open.
Q. This is -- these entries here are in relation to your
questions to Mr. Nichols regarding picking Mr. McVeigh up in
Oklahoma and bringing him back to Junction City.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this entry, "McDonald's was closed": That's part of
the response Mr. Nichols was giving you?
A. Mr. Nichols, as I mentioned, said that Timothy McVeigh was
hungry again and that he wanted to eat but that the McDonald's
that he dropped him off at was closed, so he wanted to go -- to
Stephen Smith - Cross
Terry Nichols says that the Denny's was open up the street, but
he did not know that Timothy McVeigh had gone there.
Q. Let's stay with what you wrote down here. McDonald's was
closed. And what's the next entry?
A. "But the Denny's was open."
Q. And the next?
A. "I dropped off and said that I would catch him later."
Q. And the next?
A. "He knew someone around JC he could possibly get a vehicle
and head on his way back home, New York, see relatives in New
York City."
Q. Mr. Nichols related to you that McVeigh told him that he
knew somebody that he could call, get a vehicle?
A. Either call or see in person, because he said he could
possibly get a vehicle from someone, yes, sir.
Q. He knew someone -- is that "'round JC," or what?
A. "Around JC," yes, sir.
Q. All right. What's the next entry?
A. "He said he bought it cheap, did not know if it was worth
fixing. Traded."
Q. What are you referring to there?
A. Terry Nichols is saying that Timothy McVeigh told him that
the car that apparently was left in Oklahoma City -- that he
had purchased it cheap and that Timothy McVeigh did not know if
the car in Oklahoma City was worth fixing.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. All right. What did he say next?
A. That he -- that Timothy "had traded or bought two or three
vehicles since I saw him last. That was in November. Cheap
cars, not having luck with cars."
Q. Okay. And the next entry?
A. "He knows guns a lot better than I do. Knows ballistics,
bullets, etc."
Q. Okay. And next?
A. "He is more interested in guns than I am. He looks at it
to when he talks to people. I look at it to make money."
Q. And the next?
A. "Trying to sell my private guns because I may have too
many."
Q. Okay. Now, you have the entry at 4:12 p.m. that Dan and
Scott -- is that Dan Jablonski and Scott Crabtree?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what does that mean; that they have come into the
interview?
A. Yes. They have knocked on the door and they came into the
interview, and I introduced these two agents to Terry Nichols.
Q. Okay. So we've completed four pages, and you've related to
us that this is when you went back and read these four pages to
Mr. Nichols in the presence of Mr. Jablonski, Crabtree, and
Foley; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. So do we need to go back to the front of page 1 now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, relate to us on this page where additions are made.
A. The additions that were made after the -- during the note
review were in the left corner there -- or in the left circle,
down halfway through, "Heard about Tim --"
Q. Are we speaking of this entry?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And tell the jury what was added there at 4:12 break.
A. Or shortly thereafter. "Heard about Tim news then."
Q. And was this added?
A. "Saw composites, did not look a lot like him, Tim."
Q. Now, was there anything else on this page that was added
when you read the notes to Mr. Nichols in the presence of the
four agents?
A. No. My copy here is not -- is not as dark. I mean, I
think it's been copied a few times. But, no, there's no
other -- I don't believe there's anything else added here. I'm
having a tough time between the blue and the black.
No, sir.
Q. Okay. So those other additions came at 7:00, after 7?
After 7?
A. After 7:19, yes, sir.
Q. So do we need to go to the front of page 2, now, to see
what other additions were made after this 4:12 --
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- reading of the notes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, tell the jury, starting at the top, what was
added.
A. In the upper right-hand corner, it says, "Tim McVeigh,"
parentheses, "about two years ago," end parentheses, "stayed
with us for a month, anywhere two weeks to six weeks."
Q. Okay. And where is he speaking of "stayed with us"?
A. At the Decker, Michigan -- at 3616 North Van Dyke in
Decker, Michigan, the farmhouse that James Nichols lived in.
Q. Is this the addition that you put in, the large two-story
farmhouse?
A. That was the next thing. The next thing I added, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. What next was added?
A. I believe the next thing that was added right below there,
"Sometimes brother's son, Chase Nichols, stayed there, also."
Q. And do you know whether or not Chase Nichols is a son of
James Nichols and Kelly Langenburg?
A. I do not know.
Q. All right. What else as we go down these lines was added
during this time?
A. Okay. The next notation was "Last contact prior to Sunday
was in November or January."
Q. So at 4:12, he's telling you -- shortly after 4:12 in the
Stephen Smith - Cross
reading of these notes -- he's telling you his recollection was
his last contact was back in November or January?
A. Yes. Because previously he'd said that he had not seen him
since November of 1994. Then he said that he was not sure if
it was either November of 1994, or January of 1995.
Q. All right. And the next entry addition?
A. "Son Joshua, TV."
Q. That's one over here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he's calling him his son here and not stepson; correct?
A. Yes, sir. It was confusing.
Q. To you, or to him?
A. To me.
Q. Okay. Now, what's the next addition?
A. "Call from son that he picked it up two months up to time I
got it back."
Q. Okay. This entry where he says "got call": What are
you -- what is that entry explaining?
A. That entry explains that Terry Nichols received a call from
his son Joshua that Timothy McVeigh had picked up the TV set
from Josh and his mother, Lana Padilla; and then I say, "two
months up to time I got it back." So two months up to the time
that Terry Nichols got his TV back.
Q. Where is that? Are you speaking right here?
A. No, sir. "Son Joshua, TV"; and then if you go right to
Stephen Smith - Cross
the -- right after "TV," it says, "call from son that he picked
it up, two months up to time I got it back."
Q. Okay. What's the next entry?
A. "Got call at approximately 3 p.m. after Easter dinner."
Q. That's the one over here on the margin?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And next?
A. "I might not drop it off because I'm pressed for time to
get back East."
Q. What did that refer to?
A. The TV that Timothy McVeigh was bringing to Terry
Nichols -- he did not know if he could bring it to him in
Herington, because he was going to see his relatives on the
East Coast and he was pressed for time and he did not know if
he could make it up to Herington.
Q. This is Mr. McVeigh's statement that Mr. Nichols is
relating to you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What about this circle over here: Was that added?
A. Yes, sir, this was added at that time, also. Assumed call
was from OK City. He was coming from out West to visit
relatives East.
Q. All right. Are there any other additions on this page of
what Mr. Nichols told you?
A. No, sir.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. So should we go to the front of page 3, then?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And again, this is page 3 with your initials on it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And tell the jury what was added during this rereading
shortly after 4:12.
A. "Gave son TV in Vegas in November."
Q. That's this entry here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. "Thought that if I wanted a TV back then, go pick up. Send
letter to mailbox in Arizona, Kingman."
Q. Did he say who he was sending the letter to?
A. He said that he sent the letter to Timothy McVeigh at a
mailbox drop in Kingman, Arizona.
Q. Okay. And is this next border -- margin entry -- 4:34?
A. He went back -- then we went to the top of the page.
Q. Okay. Let's go to the top.
A. Okay. "On phone, just keep between the two of us. Just
repeat Omaha if your wife asks."
Q. His next entry?
A. "Seemed private on other calls, my business, no one is to
know his business."
Q. Okay. What did he say then?
A. "Some private are trivial things."
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. "Some private are trivial things." Is he describing
Mr. McVeigh's request for privacy?
A. He was describing telephone calls that Mr. McVeigh wanted
private that were not important; that were very trivial
matters.
Q. That was Mr. Nichols' description; that they were trivial?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what next entry did you make then?
A. In the next entry is the 4:34 consent. But I would like to
mention that "told him that if he was in area to pick it up,"
right above the top of that page, where it says, "Come pick me
up," that notation above that, if you go to the top of the
page.
Q. All right. Where are you speaking of?
A. Right here.
Q. All right. Read that to the jury.
A. "Told him that if he was in area to pick it up."
Q. And what are you referring to there?
A. That was in relation to the letter that Terry Nichols sent
to Timothy McVeigh requesting that if he was in the area of Las
Vegas, to pick up the TV set for him.
Q. Do you know how close Las Vegas is to Kingman?
A. It's approximately 90 miles. 180 miles round trip, I
believe.
Q. And would you click that pen.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Thank you.
Okay. What was the next entry?
A. 4:34. "Consent to look at house."
Q. That's this one here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's where Mr. McVeigh -- Mr. Nichols said, "Yes, if
my wife or I can be present." Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What's the next entry?
A. "Left about 10 minutes after call."
Q. That's the border entry?
A. Yes, sir. We'll go straight down the left margin.
Q. We're still talking about the call on Easter Sunday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. What's the next entry?
A. "He gave me directions to go downtown, gave me the exits."
Q. And the next?
A. "Go round block couple times and I'll see you."
Q. Okay. Is there anything else on this page that you added
at that time?
A. Yes. "Decided it would take approximately five hours," at
the bottom left there. If you scoot the page up a little.
Q. That was added at that time after the 4:12 rereading?
A. Yes. Right after he had said that Timothy McVeigh told him
to go around the block a couple times, "and I'll see you."
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. Okay. Is there anything else on this page that was added
at that time?
A. Yes. Then the stuff at the bottom of the page where it
says possible -- or "possibly Main Street exit, 8th Street,
circle the block and picked him up, went past that building a
couple times."
Q. Now, in your questioning to Mr. Nichols, did you ask him,
"Did you go past the Murrah Building?"
A. No, I did not.
Q. What did you ask him concerning going around Oklahoma City?
A. We asked him to describe how he picked up Timothy McVeigh,
and he gave these descriptions.
Q. And you never -- the agents never mentioned the Murrah
Building or the federal building to Mr. Nichols; is that your
testimony?
A. We asked Mr. Nichols later if Timothy McVeigh could build a
device to blow up the federal building. We did not ask him
specifically in this context about the Alfred P. Murrah Federal
Building.
Q. Is there anything else on this page that you added?
A. Not at that time, sir.
Q. So we need to go to -- well, you didn't add anything to the
front of page 4; is that correct?
A. No, sir.
Q. So does that then complete the additions that were made
Stephen Smith - Cross
after the 4:12 rereading?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So then we go to page 5?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was a break taken at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, who's present after -- you got four agents there.
Who's present as you resume?
A. Dan Jablonski and Scott -- and Jack Foley left the
interview room at approximately 4:53, and Scott Crabtree and I
continued the interview on page 5 shortly thereafter. I do not
know specifically in the pages of notes when they left. But
they did leave and we continued with the interview.
Q. So prior to the rereading, it had been you and Foley.
After you reread the note, it's then you and Crabtree; is that
correct?
A. After they left, yes, sir.
Q. So is it accurate, then, to resume at the top of page 5?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is page 5, according to your notes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the next entry you made concerning your
questioning?
A. "Met at basic training in Georgia, then came up to Fort
Riley."
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. And this "1988" above there: Was that added later?
A. That was added after he had mentioned this. He added that
it was in 1988 at basic training.
Q. Okay. What's the next entry?
A. "Previous wife Vegas, we should be separated and maybe you
should go into the Army."
Q. And the next?
A. "Separated two or three years."
Q. And the next?
A. She had an office Bay City, Army recruiting station there
also, recruited."
Q. Okay. And what discussion are you having here with
Mr. Nichols concerning separation and going into the Army?
A. His wife had suggested to him that maybe they should be
separated for a couple years and maybe he should go into the
Army and she had an office in Bay City and in that office
complex there was an Army recruiting station and that he was
recruited out of that station, the same office building that
she was working in.
Q. All right. And what does the "fall of '88" refer to?
A. That is the basic training that he and Mr. McVeigh had
taken in Georgia.
Q. Okay. And you've got "fall of '88 reunited." What does
that mean?
A. Oh. Excuse me. He went to basic training, apparently
Stephen Smith - Cross
earlier; and Terry Nichols said that in the fall of 1988, he
was reunited with Timothy McVeigh at their first duty station
at Fort Riley, Kansas.
Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Nichols entered the Army in
May of '88?
A. Yes. Yes, sir.
Q. So in the fall of '88, he's completed basic training and
he's in Fort Riley. Is that what he's telling you?
A. Yeah. And that he's reunited with Timothy McVeigh.
Q. What's the next entry?
A. "Almost one year in Army. Got out in May, 1988, or 1989."
Q. And the next?
A. "Honorable discharge. She moved to Bay City. Not take
care of Josh, so try to get custody."
Q. And Josh, again, is his son?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you cleared that up by then as to whether or not it was
his son or stepson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did you learn?
A. Mr. Nichols -- I mean I wouldn't be confused if it was my
son or my stepson, and he said that it was his stepson
originally, and then he said it was his son. And on the third
mention, when he said, "take care of Josh," this was meaning
that it was his son at that point.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. So you're telling the jury that it was his confusion as to
whether or not his son or stepson?
A. Yes. I'm not going to write down "stepson" unless
Mr. Nichols said that.
Q. And the next entry?
A. "Tour two weeks in Germany, then sergeant told me to stay
behind to drive German officers around and then after two weeks
decide if I wanted to stay or not. Got honorable discharge."
Q. What did you understand him to tell you regarding this
two-week tour in Germany, etc.?
A. Mr. Nichols was saying that he was going to go on a
two-week tour in Germany and that his sergeant had told him
that he was going to have to stay behind and drive German
officers around the post at Fort Riley and that he needed to
decide whether he wanted to stay in the Army or not. And at
that point Terry Nichols said that he got out of the Army.
Q. And he had, what, an honorable discharge?
A. Yes, sir. That's what he said: "Got honorable discharge."
Q. What's the next entry?
A. "Make sure you come down 8th Street."
Q. We're back on talking about going to Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir. This is in regards to the conversation that
McVeigh called Nichols and giving him descriptions on getting
down to Oklahoma City.
Q. Okay. And what next entry did you put?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. "Make your circles, went south on 8th, possibly. Drove
around block to 15, 30 minutes. All big buildings. Went as
far as a car dealer and drove by a post office."
Q. Okay. And the next?
A. And then he mentioned also in relation to that statement
there that it could have been a half an hour instead of the 15
to 30 minutes and then that the route of the blocks was not
always the same, meaning that when he was driving around
waiting for McVeigh down in Oklahoma City that the routes that
he was taking were not always the same.
Q. Okay.
A. Then he said that he "glimpsed down an alley to other
street and saw that it was Tim when drove around block."
Q. And the next?
A. "Driving east, saw through alley. Then looked --" I'm
sorry. He said "looked," and then I scratched it out -- "then
drove north and back west, picked him up on a two-way street."
Q. Okay. So is it fair, then, to go to the top of page 6?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is page 6, according to your notes and your
initial; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Tell the jury what entry you next made.
A. "He was not wet when he got into my car. It was raining
when in Oklahoma City. It was pouring on way back, on freeway
Stephen Smith - Cross
back here. He wears black T-shirts all the time. T-shirt and
jeans normal. T-shirt, no pocket, no V-neck. Go down 8th
Street. Came from Arizona. Going back east to see family and
bringing TV. Going to meet someone else in Midwest."
Q. This entry over here in parentheses: Was that added later?
A. He mentioned that underneath -- after mentioning about the
T-shirts that McVeigh wears and he doesn't have any pockets or
V-necks that he also wears combat boots and tennis shoes.
Q. Okay. And this entry over here on the left: Was that
added later or at the same time?
A. Yes. At the same time, and Terry Nichols was saying that
he guessed that Timothy McVeigh was wearing tennis shoes when
he picked him up in Oklahoma City.
Q. So he was telling you that he was coming from Arizona going
where?
A. Back East to see family and bringing TV.
Q. Okay. And is this the next entry?
A. Yes, sir. "He does not want --" it should be "people" --
"to know what he is doing. This is his nature. So he told me
to tell wife that you were going to go to Omaha."
Q. Okay, and what's the next entry?
A. "I told wife that I was going to Omaha to pick up Tim with
car problems. Then told wife on way to PD today that I went
down to Oklahoma City instead of Omaha."
Q. Okay. And what's this next cross for new entry?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. "On way back to Herington, Florence, Kansas."
Q. What was that Florence, Kansas, put in there about?
A. Terry Nichols said that on the way back from Oklahoma City,
to Herington, Junction City, that he had stopped in Florence,
Kansas, to buy diesel fuel.
Q. And you're aware that he had a diesel pickup truck; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir. He had told us that he carried additional gas
cans in the back of his pickup truck in case he needed to get
diesel.
Q. Did he tell you that he had those extra cans so that if he
saw somewhere that they were selling it cheap that -- that he
would buy extra diesel?
A. No, he did not.
Q. What next entry do you have here?
A. "Tim told me turn here, turn there, which way is out, and
he directed me out to the interstate."
Q. And the next entry?
A. "Occasionally carry additional diesel fuel in back of
truck."
Q. And the next?
A. "Got gas on way down in Kansas, about at border, took 77
south to border, diesel gas, no tolls going down or coming
back."
Q. Did you ask him why he doesn't pay tolls or take the toll
Stephen Smith - Cross
road?
A. No, I did not.
Q. In Kansas, there's a toll road where you have to pay money
just to go down an interstate, isn't there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What's the next entry?
A. "Station was on right side of road, going down. Had snacks
and soda inside for sale."
Q. Now, is this part right here --
A. Then he added that -- that he got on 35, then down to OKC.
Q. And that's where you can get on the interstate without
paying the toll?
A. Once you get into Oklahoma, yes, sir.
Q. And the next entry?
A. "Tim had TV sitting on sidewalk. Not see his car. Way he
talked, it sounded like a larger model."
Q. And this on the side?
A. "Had a compact Chevy before that," meaning he had a compact
Chevy before the car that he was leaving in Oklahoma City.
Q. So do we now go to the top of page 7?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is page 7, according to your initial and your
numbering system; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And tell the jury what entries you made based on your
Stephen Smith - Cross
interview with Mr. Nichols.
A. The first entry on page 7 was, "Got in accident, then got
another car, then bought my brother's car in 1 -- or January of
1995."
Q. All right. And this circle, is that added later?
A. It was added two minutes later, after he had mentioned that
"he paid 4-, $500 for the car from brother James in Decker,
Michigan. Then he said bought $500 after he got it and got in
accident." So these are at the same time, but I wanted to make
a differentiation there.
Q. Okay. And what's the next entry here?
A. "He said it was an older Chevy or Pontiac, dark blue, small
station wagon with hatch."
Q. And the next cross entry?
A. "He was up in Michigan when his car got hit" --
Q. Excuse me, what's this one right here?
A. We had just gone over that, that he paid 4- or $500 for a
car from brother James in Decker, Michigan.
Q. All right. Now, we've got a cross, but we've got some
stuff in the margin. What comes first?
A. The cross. "He said that he was up in Michigan when his
car got hit and then bought brother's car."
Q. Who is he speaking of there?
A. Timothy McVeigh.
Q. And the next entry?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. "Do not believe that the car that broke down was James's
former car."
Q. And the next?
A. "Put same amount of money into James's car that he paid for
it."
Q. Next?
A. "On way back, stopped in town off 77 at McDonald's, he got
something to eat."
Q. "He" is referring to who?
A. Timothy McVeigh.
Q. And the next entry?
A. It's the -- in the margin there, "I get sleepy tired when I
drive sometimes, and Tim asked if I remembered that."
Q. Let me get that on the screen. "I get sleepy tired"?
A. "I get sleepy tired when I drive sometimes, and Tim asked
if I remembered that."
Q. Remembered what?
A. They would have conversations in the car or truck, and
Timothy McVeigh would ask a question about a certain
conversation they had just had, and Terry Nichols would respond
that he didn't remember that conversation. And he described
that as being sleepy tired because he drives a lot, he gets
that way.
Q. Okay. Okay. So then the next entry is going to be this
one?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. "Then stopped at Florence, Kansas, to get diesel near 77
and 56. Gas station on southwest side."
Q. Okay. And the next entry?
A. "Went straight up to JC. Got to JC about 1:30 a.m."
Q. "JC" again is Junction City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what do you have entered right after 1:30 a.m.?
A. "Went in McDonald's, put TV in back."
Q. Okay. What about this right here?
A. This was added a minute later, that he said that he knew
somebody there where he could stay and get a car.
Q. And this is Mr. McVeigh was stating to Terry Nichols he
knew somebody there where he could stay and get a car?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And you stated that McDonald's -- well, go ahead,
pick up where you --
A. "McDonald's on Washington was closed. He said to drop me
off there and he'd call someone. He said he was hungry but not
open, but Denny's was open."
Q. Okay. The next entry?
A. "Pulled in between McDonald's and service station."
Q. And the next?
A. "And then I got back on Washington Street. He was walking
towards Texaco or Conoco. He was clean-shaven when picked him
up. He had a little bag, solid green laundry bag, like Army
Stephen Smith - Cross
laundry bag with drawstrings."
Q. Now, these two entries on the side, when were they put on?
A. They were put on right after that last statement, and Terry
Nichols said that he got home about 2:00 a.m. on that Monday
morning, and he thought it stopped raining when got into
Kansas.
Q. Now, is it in sequence if we go to top of page 8 next?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And again, this is your initials and page 8?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell the jury what you next wrote down from your
interview with Mr. Nichols?
A. "Threw it on floor when got into truck along with TV."
Q. And by "it," you put "bag" above "it"?
A. Yes. Then he further explained that the "it" he was
referring to was the green laundry bag that Timothy McVeigh
had.
Q. Okay. What's the next entry?
A. "Catch you on the way back. Usually says this when we
leave each other."
Q. Next?
A. "He gave me a call on Tuesday morning at approximately
6:00 a.m., and I'd like to use your pickup a little bit."
Q. And the next?
A. "Fort Riley had sealed-bid auction, Monday, Tuesday,
Stephen Smith - Cross
Wednesday."
Q. Now, what -- how did that come up?
A. That came up -- Terry Nichols said that Timothy McVeigh
called at 6:00 a.m. wanting to borrow his truck, and Terry
Nichols told him that Fort Riley had a sealed-bid auction that
Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday and that he wanted to go to that
auction. So he was telling Tim McVeigh that "I want to go to
this auction, and if you're not going to take too long, you can
borrow my pickup truck."
Q. And this is Tuesday, the 18th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the next cross?
A. "Knows couple guys in JC, find a car."
Q. What does that mean?
A. Terry Nichols tells us that Timothy McVeigh knows a couple
people in Junction City and he could find a car as opposed to
borrowing his truck. That was his thought as to why he didn't
need to let Timothy McVeigh borrow the truck.
Q. And the next entry?
A. "I was just up when got called. 'Can I use your pickup for
a little bit? I need to pick up a few things and look at a few
vehicles.'"
Q. And the next?
A. "I said that 'I want to go to an auction today. If it is
not going to take too long, you can drop me off at auction so I
Stephen Smith - Cross
can review it, then borrow it.' Then we would be going our own
way after that."
Q. And the next?
A. "He said he was not in a real hurry, at home for an hour.
Left home at 7 a.m."
Q. Okay. And the next?
A. "Agreed to meet at McDonald's in Junction City at 7:30
a.m."
Q. Okay. And next?
A. "Blond hair, not much stubble." I crossed out "beard."
"A crew cut always."
Q. And had you asked him for a description of McVeigh?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what's the next entry?
A. "Picked him up, drove up to Fort Riley. I got out and told
him to be back at noon."
Q. Okay.
A. "McDonald's, back on freeway, K-18 through Ogden, then to
post, Fort Riley."
Q. Is this in response to your question of "How did you get to
Fort Riley?"
A. Yes, sir, how did they get from the McDonald's in Junction
City to the auction.
Q. All right. What's the next entry?
A. "He showed up after 1:00 p.m."
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. Okay.
A. "Went into building and signed in before 1:00 p.m. and
looked at items inside, then left."
Q. All right. And the next entry?
A. "Went outside after bid," and he showed -- "and he drove
up. Dropped him off at McDonald's, and that was it."
Q. Now, is there anyplace in your notes there where you wrote
down that he went into two buildings?
A. No, not in the notes. Mr. Nichols had said that he had
gone into a building and then came out of that building at noon
because he was supposed to meet Timothy McVeigh; and when
Timothy McVeigh did not show up, that is when he went into
another building where he had to sign in and looked at those
items to bid on.
Q. It's not in your notes, is it, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. You recall him telling that he went to an outdoor area to
look at items?
A. No, sir.
Q. Is it in sequence, then, to go to the top of page 9?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And again, this is your initial and page 9?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what's your next entry?
A. "Said he was looking at a couple cars, assumed that he
Stephen Smith - Cross
bought a car. Got out of car and not seen him since."
Q. Now, are we -- what topic are you discussing here with
Mr. Nichols?
A. The discussion that they had in the car, in the pickup
truck going from the DRMO at Fort Riley back to the McDonald's
in Junction City. And he said that Timothy McVeigh had said
that he had looked at a couple cars, and Terry Nichols said
that he assumed that Timothy McVeigh may have even bought a
car.
Q. Okay. And where are you in the notes, then; right here?
A. Yes. Then he said he got home. "And then I got home."
Q. What about these entries on the mailbox -- when did that
come up?
A. That came up at the same time also. He did not give us a
time that he had gotten home with the notation on the left
there. So then he said after he dropped Timothy McVeigh off at
the McDonald's in Junction City, "I picked up my mail in
Manhattan, Mail Boxes, Etc. 1228 Westloop, 197." Then he said
he tries to get his mail twice a week.
Q. Then what is the next entry here; right here?
A. This entry in the left-hand margin where Terry Nichols said
that Timothy McVeigh says that he lives light, in reference to
only having a green duffel bag to have all his belongings.
Q. All right. So you have an entry here, "wanted to live in
Manhattan or Junction City"?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did he say there?
A. "But too expensive, multiple listings, looked at house, two
realtors," not homes. I crossed out "homes." "Saw in Junction
City. One called in Manhattan, both on 6th, one on north side,
one on south side, closer to Main Street."
Q. Is he talking about the realtors that he had seen about
buying a house?
A. Yes, sir, that there were two realtors in Junction City.
They were -- both had offices on 6th Street. One was on the
north side and one was on the south side.
Q. And what's the next entry here?
A. He said that "he'd looked at prices of guns and houses and
too expensive in Junction City and Manhattan."
Q. And next?
A. "Looking for owner-financing house."
Q. Next?
A. "In a listing in Junction City, saw some houses in
Herington."
Q. Next?
A. "Moved because wanted to sell military surplus and get into
more gun shows. Too cold in Michigan for too long."
Q. He was giving you his reason for moving to Kansas?
A. Yes. And he gave us -- those are two kind of conflicting
reasons. He said that he moved from Michigan to Las Vegas
Stephen Smith - Cross
'cause it was too cold in Michigan for too long during the
winters and that he moved to Kansas from Las Vegas because he
did not -- because he wanted to sell military surplus and get
into more gun shows.
Q. And the next entry?
A. "Lived near Marion, Kansas, for one year, Donahue Farms
ranch."
Q. And the next?
A. "Could not find a job paying good in Vegas. Got to
Manhattan and checked want ads and went to work at Donahue
because had new John Deere tractor."
Q. The next entry?
A. "3616 North Van Dyke, Decker, Michigan, then to Vegas, then
to Marion, Kansas. Mother's house, lived there on two
occasions."
Q. Now, were you going back over places he had lived; is that
your questioning?
A. Yes, he -- excuse me. He had said that he had gone from
the 3616 North Van Dyke, Decker, Michigan address, moved to Las
Vegas, and then back -- then moved to Marion, Kansas, so he was
detailing his travels, his -- where he'd lived.
Q. And what about this entry in the margin?
A. The entry in the margin is -- says, "Bought farm in
approximately 1975. And he mentioned that after he said that
his "mother's house, lived there on two occasions," was the
Stephen Smith - Cross
3616 North Van Dyke and that they had purchased the farm in
approximately 1975.
Q. Okay. Your next entry?
A. "Born in Lapeer, Michigan, and mother still lives there."
Q. And the next?
A. "Remodeled it in 70's, two-story farmhouse. Brother may
own house now. Lived there from 1991, 1993. Lived there from
1975 to 1980. Married first wife, moved into her house in
Decker, sold it, bought another, went into service," went back
to -- "went back," and then on the front of the next page.
Q. So we go to top of page 10, then?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is your initial and page 10?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the "Argyle Road," what is that?
A. That's in regards to where he moved after he went -- after
he was in the service, went back to Argyle Road for address
after service.
Q. All right. What is this next sentence?
A. "First wife moved out to Bay City."
Q. That's this entry right here?
A. This entry right here.
Q. "First wife moved out to Bay City"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the next entry -- if you'll click that off.
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. "Let her first ex-husband live in house to take care of two
children."
Q. Next?
A. "Fixed house up and was there for approximately one year.
Not more than two years. Sold house plus 80 acres to neighbor
for $90,000 in 1990 or 1991."
Q. The next entry?
A. "Moved to Las Vegas to be near son. That is when wife came
over from Philippines. Met her in the Philippines when he was
on vacation."
Q. Next?
A. "Went back over there later and married her in November of
1990 or 1991."
Q. Next?
A. "Lived in Vegas for six months to a year and saw Josh quite
a bit."
Q. Next?
A. "Have joint custody of Josh. Josh was here for a week over
Easter."
Q. Next?
A. "Worked at Donahue's for six months driving tractor, Tim
Donahue."
Q. Next?
A. "Not like working for someone else."
Q. And next?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Then there's a "so" there also. It's "So not like working
for someone else."
Q. Yes, sir.
A. "He provided a house for us 2 miles south of ranch. RR 3,
Rural Route 3, Box 83, Marion, Kansas."
Q. And next?
A. "Tim came by and said that 'Let's do some gun shows. Go it
alone and try to make a business. Ours would be better, see
family.' He wanted to do more of guns, handle more long guns,
guns to sell. I wanted to buy more Army surplus and sell."
Q. Next?
A. "Pick up stuff cheap here and sell at shows elsewhere."
Q. Next?
A. Then he said that his wife went back to the Philippines
with child after Marion. In the left margin there above
your --
Q. And it says what?
A. "Wife went back to Philippines with child after Marion."
Q. Okay. What is this last entry here?
A. "Tim and I went to one in Colorado, two or three in Arizona
and one in Nevada."
Q. That's going to be --
A. -- page 11.
Q. This is page 11. And you picked that up right here; is
that correct?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It's talking about where he and Tim had gone to gun shows?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. These entries above were made later?
A. They were -- I just continued that first -- that one
comment in regards to the gun shows. 'Cause he said, " . . .
two or three in Arizona," which would be the first, the first
line. And then I said "sometime" -- I'm sorry, then I wrote
down that he said, "Sometimes both would drive to shows and
sometimes one would drive."
Q. Right here, above?
A. Yes. That was mentioned after the gun shows that they had
gone to. He said that sometimes they would both drive or
sometimes they would just one of them would drive to the shows.
Q. What is this entry?
A. "Two waters." We had supplied him two waters during the
break, and I just wanted to make sure that that was captured.
Q. So resuming what your questions and answers are, it's right
here?
A. Yes, sir. "Pooled money, less expenses, and split it."
Q. And the next?
A. "Did not ask for any gas money from him."
Q. Next?
A. "I pay for everything in cash. I do not have any checks,
credit cards."
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. Next?
A. "Got mail in Marion and Manhattan."
Q. Next entry?
A. "Stayed at Sunset in Junction City for three weeks prior to
Herington."
Q. Yes, sir.
A. "While wife was in Philippines."
Q. And then you've got an entry for 6:10 p.m., took a break?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And an entry stating what?
A. He got two pieces of pizza, water, and that we asked about
the rest room, if he needed to use the rest room.
Q. So the break lasted from 6:10 to 7:07?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that when you went upstairs and briefed the other
FBI agents what you had learned during the course of the
interview?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you told them about Mr. Donahue; correct?
A. I don't have a recollection that that conversation
specifically took place. I do not know what I briefed them
about. I didn't take notes as to what I briefed them about.
Q. Did you take your notes upstairs and read to the
supervisors what you had learned from Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, I gave them highlights of what he had said.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. And did you get additional information at that time from
the agents as to other topics to ask him about?
A. I believe we did, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And was there a discussion at that time about the
status of the arrest warrant that was being sought?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nobody mentioned to you when you were briefing them or you
were being briefed about the status of an arrest warrant?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did anybody mention to you that a lawyer had called and
wanted to speak with Mr. Nichols?
A. No, sir.
Q. What else happened during that 6:10 to 7:07 p.m. break?
A. Scott Crabtree and I went upstairs, and Jack Foley and Dan
Jablonski went in the interview room and sat with Terry Nichols
outside the interview room when Scott Crabtree and I were
upstairs. We talked to other agents. I imagine we had a piece
of pizza, too. And I got some water.
Q. And do you know what information you got at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. The information you gave was what was in your notes; is
that correct?
A. What was in my notes and what Mr. Nichols had told us.
Q. Now, do you know whether or not Mr. Jablonski and Mr. Foley
continued the interview while you were gone?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. I did not know that at that point, no, sir.
Q. Did you learn later?
A. Yes. I learned that they -- Terry Nichols had brought up
some discussions during that break.
Q. And were notes made of those discussions?
A. Not by me, no, sir.
Q. No, you weren't there. But did they make notes of those
discussions?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did they give them to you?
A. No, they did not.
Q. So to resume at 7:07, do we stay on this page and pick up
right here, or do we go back somewhere?
A. No, we stay there at 7:07 after the break, and I say, "Back
in interview with Scott."
Q. And that's Mr. Crabtree?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. 7:14: What is this entry?
A. "Again to consent search of house and car with wife
present."
Q. How many consent forms did he sign?
A. He only signed one consent form.
Q. You're just asking him again if he will still agree to it?
A. Yes. We asked him if he would agree to a consent search of
his house and his truck with his wife present, because Terry
Stephen Smith - Cross
Nichols was still being talked to so he could not be present;
and he agreed that he would give that consent for that search.
Q. If his wife could be present?
A. Correct.
Q. And she never was present during the search, was she?
A. We didn't execute the consent search warrants. We didn't
use the consent search warrants.
Q. You didn't?
A. Did not.
Q. She never was present during any search, was she?
A. I don't believe so. No, sir.
Q. So what's the next entry?
A. We did not use the consent searches that Terry Nichols
signed for the house. Later we used consent searches that his
wife signed.
Q. And you didn't use the consent searches that he signed for
the house because the U.S. attorneys told you they weren't
good, didn't they?
A. No, they decided that they were going to actually get a
search warrant for the two, for the house and the truck.
Q. Did they tell you that because you had offered to have
Mr. Nichols present during the search, that those consents
weren't valid?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Stephen Smith - Cross
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. What's the next entry?
A. "Went upstairs and said okay," meaning that I went upstairs
and told my superiors and other agents that it was okay to
search the house with Marife Nichols present.
Q. So you went up and told your supervisors that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Based on that consent that Mr. Nichols gave, it was okay if
his wife was present at the search?
A. Yes, because at the 4:34, when he signed the consent, he
asked prior to that if his wife or himself could be present.
We said that was possible; and then we were going to search
that evening, so we wanted to make sure, since Terry Nichols
was still being interviewed, that it was okay that his wife be
present during a search. And that's what we went back down,
asked him. He said, yes. I went back upstairs.
Q. Who did you tell that to back upstairs?
A. My superior and other agents upstairs.
Q. Was the U.S. attorney there at the time?
A. I don't believe so, no, sir.
Q. So what's the next entry?
A. "7:16, back in interview."
Q. And the next?
A. "7:17, been through Omaha, no P.O. box in Omaha, Nebraska."
Q. And now here, we pick up at 10:50 in different color. So
Stephen Smith - Cross
do we need to go back to another page here at 7:17?
A. Yeah. At 7:17 we told Terry Nichols that we were going to
go over the whole story again that he had given us during the
first four hours of the interview. So we went to page 1 and
made -- made a notation, changing my pen to a different color,
to black, and made a note at 7:19 to go over the story in the
left-hand margin of page 1.
Q. So we start with page 1, then, again?
A. Yes. We go back to page 1, at the top of the document --
the top of the interview notes, and we go over the whole story
again.
Q. This is your initial and it's page 1?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, do you want to point out to the jury what
entries were made on your notes after 7:19 on page 1.
A. Okay. As I mentioned earlier, this is not a dark copy
'cause it's tough to differentiate the black and the blue. But
the first entry here, "present job," is what he -- whoops --
is -- the first entry that he mentions after -- when we're
going over the story, he says that his present job is buying,
selling.
Q. But you'd already gone over that much earlier when you put
the jobs down about buy and sell surplus?
A. Right, I asked him in the first part of the interview what
he did for a living, and he said that he buys and sells. And
Stephen Smith - Cross
when we went over the notes, he said that his present job was
that, so I wrote down "present job."
Q. What other additions did you make here after 7:19?
A. Right here where it says "my." And then "and brother's
mentioned in regards to OKC."
Q. And is he explaining that he heard his and his brother's
name mentioned on the news broadcast?
A. On the radio news broadcast from the station in Manhattan,
Kansas, yes.
Q. And your next addition?
A. Over here.
Q. If you scratch that -- omit those marks?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. If you could erase those marks. So that we can move down
the page. Just click on the side.
Now, can you show the jury what additions were made
here.
A. "At home," and he reemphasized that he -- "on." Then he
says again, "two people from Michigan."
Q. Let's go back to that "at home." What are you meaning
there?
A. That he heard Timothy McVeigh's name on the news; then when
he got back home, that he watched it on the TV.
Q. After hearing it on the radio, he went home, watched it on
TV; is that what you're saying?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. Yes. He was kind of confused as to whether he heard
Timothy McVeigh's name mentioned on the radio or at home or
whether he had seen him and heard him on both. But then he did
say he did hear his name on the news then at home and he heard
his name for the first time at home on TV, but he believed he
had heard Timothy McVeigh's name also on the radio broadcast.
Q. What is the next addition?
A. "Heard about OKC bombing yesterday at cable outlet in
Herington."
Q. Where is that, sir?
A. I had just -- right here. Let me click these off.
Right here.
Q. What did he tell you here?
A. "Heard about OK City bombing yesterday at cable outlet in
Herington." Then below that, "Got a paper last night and got
three different papers, read about it last night, Wichita,
Salina."
Q. And what's this entry, "no reception on TV"? Wasn't that
added at the same time?
A. That was added after this comment about buying three papers
on that night. Then he says that he had no reception on TV
till today. At 9:00 a.m., cable.
Q. Did he tell you why he had no reception on his TV?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Didn't mention that the TV didn't have an antenna to it?
Stephen Smith - Cross
A. No, he didn't.
Q. So the front of page 1, then, complete?
A. No. In the left-hand margin here, these comments came
next, and I'll read those. "Home to lumberyard, purchased" --
I'm sorry. "Home to lumberyard, parked there, and heard name
and did not go in."
Q. And what's he explaining there?
A. He's explaining the Manhattan radio broadcast. He just
said that he had heard it on the radio broadcast, but he did
not tell us how he had heard about it. So he explained to us
he was going to lumberyard, stayed in his truck, did not go
into the lumberyard, then came home and watched the TV news,
the news coverage.
Q. Okay. If you'll click your pen. Is that the end of page
1, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, do we go to the back of page 1, or do we go to the
front of page 2?
A. The front of page 2.
Q. Again, this is page 2, according to your initials and
numbering system?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, tell the jury what additions you made here.
A. At the top of the page, he says: "Came into house and
asked her if she heard about it on TV. I said it was serious.
Stephen Smith - Cross
She did not believe."
He said, "Heard on radio that two people in process of
being arrested." That was at the same time that he mentioned
that he came into the house. So this left --
Q. This entry on the left here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he talking about a discussion he's having with his wife?
A. Yes, that he told his wife that he had heard on the radio
that two people were in the process of being arrested.
Q. And this comment you have over here about her, is that the
wife?
A. Yes, sir. Marife Nichols.
Q. What next did you add to this page?
A. Right here, and this is in response to a question.
Q. Excuse me. I'm going to move it so the jury can see it.
Then you can mark it. If you'll erase those marks.
All right. What did you put down?
A. Right, that phrase there, "Not headed out of town. Should
not find clothing for going out of town."
Q. Did you ask him if he was heading out of town while you
were following him?
A. Yes, we asked him that because he was going on Highway 56
south of town; and right at Surplus City, directly south of
that business, there's absolutely nothing except the highway.
So we were kind of curious as to whether he was going out of
Stephen Smith - Cross
town or why he was down at Surplus City.
Q. Is this the same Surplus City that he had explained to you
he had been to earlier when he first heard his name on the
radio?
A. No, he said he went to the lumberyard, and that lumberyard
was not the Surplus City.
Q. All right. Can you erase that mark.
And what did you next add on this page?
A. Then I went back to the page -- back of page 1.
Q. So front of page 2 is complete?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, can you read that for the jury -- this is all new
addition -- right -- you can just read it verbatim?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Can you read --
A. He went on to explain what he had explained on the top of
page 2, about going into the house and telling his wife that
his name had been mentioned in the news. He said that "asked
her if she had heard about it. She does not believe it.
Turned TV to a news station for 15 minutes. Janet Reno was on
there discussing investigation. General lingo that they always
give. It was a press conference. Then heard Tim's name on TV
for first time. Said he was picked up for a car violation not
far from OK scene. Thought and swore I cannot believe it was
him because he was heading back to see his family and he was
Stephen Smith - Cross
back there in OKC. When I heard his name on TV, that is when I
figured out why my name was on the radio, because I was his
friend. I was feeling shock because heard my name, how am I
involved, how am I connected to it. I must not have known him
that well for him to do that. Friendship is about the same
with him now as five years ago.
"We went our separate ways lately because he did not
like all my practical joking and joking. Told my wife he did
not like all that. I feel upset that I am involved in a sense
because of him and knowing that I am not."
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, does the Court want to take a
break at this time?
THE COURT: Keep going.
MR. WOODS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. So that's the back of page 1; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you then resume on the back of page 2? Is that the
sequence you took these notes?
A. Yes, sir, yes, sir.
Q. And can you read that to the jury? All of this is new
information; is that correct?
A. Yes. And the next thing that Terry Nichols said was that
he feels -- he said: "I feel I cannot trust anyone any more
than Tim." He said "except," and then he said he meant "than."
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. Can you tell us where you're reading from here?
A. Yes. It's right at the top of the page.
Q. All right. Right here?
A. Right here.
Q. Okay. So if you'll just read verbatim.
A. "I feel I cannot trust anyone any more than Tim. I have
loaned him money in the past. I would be shocked if he
implicated me. Tim takes responsibility for his actions. He
lives up to his arrangements. My wife said this morning that
Tim lives life on edge. I did say this morning, and it was
before heard that Tim had been picked up.
"She just got off phone when came in with news. She
got -- she just got off phone with Raymond, California." Then
I put a little circumflex there, "and Raymond B, her friend,
and she was joking around with him about Tim being involved.
She met him in Philippines."
Q. That's Raymond B that she met in the Philippines?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you've got a lot of notes in the margin here. Can you
tell --
A. Then we went to the top, and he was explaining that he had
received a call --
Q. Can you erase -- there you go.
A. -- from his ex-wife that morning, also, and he said "after
call from ex-wife this morning, she got mad because I told
Stephen Smith - Cross
Josh"; semicolon, "wife got upset, want to go home, she has
friends there, you've got friends like Tim."
Q. And this is an explanation of his just conversation with
his wife, Marife?
A. Yes. That Marife had gotten upset because Terry Nichols
had talked to his ex-wife that morning and that she was mad
because she wants to go home to the Philippines and she doesn't
have any friends in the United States and that Terry has
friends in the United States like Tim McVeigh.
Q. What's this entry here on top?
A. He explained after he said this -- all the way down to the
right margin, he explained that basically Lana was his ex-wife.
I did not know the name of the ex-wife yet. He said Lana, and
then he said that his ex-wife "called because Joshua told
Barry," parentheses, "(oldest son) that dad had put 3,000 to
Lana for account."
Q. All right.
A. And then he went off on the left margin to explain the
$3,000 comment. "Gave her money to put into account for Josh.
Gave her 3,000 cash in person in January. Not get statement
yet. In January said she would copy statement and send out."
Q. All right.
A. And the circle there in the middle of that page: "He likes
to drive fast." He gave that as a -- an example of how Timothy
McVeigh lives his life on the edge.
Stephen Smith - Cross
Q. And those are all the entries on the back of page 2; is
that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then where do we go, to the front of page 3?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is page 3, according to your initials and note.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And can you tell the jury what additions you made to page
3?
A. Yes. This addition here. "When he said he would tell me
things at times that would be in code for me to understand
equals think about later and able to understand." Then he made
this notation: Born in 11 -- I'm sorry. "Both in 11 Bravo,
infantry."
Q. Is that an explanation of what unit he and McVeigh were
assigned to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the entry you just made over here with these marks:
What are you referring to there?
A. In regards to the drive from Oklahoma City to Junction
City, Terry Nichols said that Tim McVeigh told him things that
were in code and that he would -- once he thought about them
later, he would be able to understand what Timothy McVeigh
meant by some of the things he was saying.
Q. And the next entry?
Stephen Smith - Cross
Can you erase those marks.
A. Right here. "Talking generalities. At times seemed hyper
or nervous, been that way other times, too. He was over at
Desert Storm, and he seemed nervous afterwards. I did not go
to Desert Storm." So all this --
Q. Those are remarks Mr. Nichols made about Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. They were remarks about what he and Mr. McVeigh had
talked about during the conversation from Oklahoma City to
Junction City; that they had talked generalities and that -- we
asked him if -- or what Mr. McVeigh's demeanor was on the trip
up from Oklahoma City to Junction City, and Terry Nichols said
at times Timothy McVeigh seemed hyper and nervous, and then he
went on to explain that Timothy McVeigh had been that way at
other times was mostly like after Desert Storm.
Q. Was there anything else on the front of page 3 that you've
added?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you want to erase those remarks.
THE COURT: Now I think we'll break, Mr. Woods.
We're about halfway through the time for today --
You may step down, Agent Smith.
-- and we'll take the break remembering that we would
expect after we come back from the 20-minute break to go
through to 1:00, since this is our schedule on Friday; so as I
say, you may wish to fortify yourself during this time. Of
course, please follow the caution regularly given at all breaks
of avoiding any discussion about the case or any of what is
happening in court, and keep open minds and avoid anything
outside the evidence.
You're excused now for 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:47 a.m.)
THE COURT: We'll recess.
(Recess at 10:48 a.m.)
* * * * *
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Stephen Smith
Cross-examination Continued by Mr. Woods 10001
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
1924 10022 10024
1926
* * * * *
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 21st day of November, 1997.
_______________________________
Kara Spitler
