The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Monday, November 24, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 88)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:45 a.m., on the 24th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys
at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado,
80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Good morning. Counsel wish to approach?
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 88B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
(Jury in at 8:55 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning. The
strange sound that you hear, which has been called, I'm told,
"pink sound" -- I don't know what happened to white sound --
but that was on because I had a discussion with the lawyers
here at the bench before we started this morning, and that's
why we held you right there at the threshold before coming in.
So it was a bit of a delay, and we apologize for that. But as
I have told you before, sometimes we have these little meetings
ahead of time, and it gives me an opportunity to give certain
rulings and guidance to counsel so that we can proceed without
interruption and without the necessity, as sometimes happens in
trials, of asking the jury to step out and then come back in.
We try to take care of those matters ahead of time so that it
can proceed then without interruption, and I believe we have
done so.
You'll recall that when we recessed early Friday
afternoon, we were hearing testimony from FBI Agent Scott
Crabtree, who is being examined by Mr. Goelman; and we'll
continue with that testimony this morning.
Mr. Crabtree, if you'll resume the stand under the
oath taken last Friday.
(Scott Crabtree was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman, you may proceed.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent Crabtree, at any time during the interview of Terry
Nichols on April 21, 1995, did you tell him what the FBI
intended to do with any information that he provided?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. When was that?
A. During the first interview session that I was involved in.
Q. Please describe what you said to Mr. Nichols as far as that
subject is concerned.
A. That we were basically there to get any information that he
could offer us on any contact he might have had with Tim
McVeigh and that anything that he would tell us, that we would
be going out, trying to verify at a later date.
Q. And at what point did you say that to Mr. Nichols? What
was the subject that was being discussed when you said that?
A. At that particular time, the meeting between Mr. McVeigh
and Mr. Nichols on the 18th and the discussion of him being at
DRMO.
Q. In response to that question, did the defendant provide any
further information to you?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. At the time that he had expected Tim McVeigh to come back
Scott Crabtree - Direct
and pick him up, that he did not appear; that he went to
another building, one that he had to sign into; spent some time
there; and after he put in a bid, came outside; and sometime
after that, Tim McVeigh returned and picked him up.
Q. Before you asked him to provide information that FBI could
verify -- before you told him that you'd go out and verify
information, had he told you about that sign-in sheet anytime
before that?
A. No, he hadn't.
Q. And on April 21, 1995, Agent Crabtree, had you ever been to
Fort Riley?
A. I had been to the Fort Riley --
Q. Had you ever been to DRMO at Fort Riley?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know anything about the layout of the DRMO?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know anything about the procedures followed?
A. No, sir.
Q. At what point of the interview did Mr. Nichols first tell
you about his activities on Tuesday morning, April 18?
A. It would have been during the first interview session that
I was involved in, but it would have been before 6:10, 6:10
break.
Q. And at that point, did he tell you how he and Mr. McVeigh
had supposedly parted ways on Tuesday morning?
Scott Crabtree - Direct
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. That after Mr. McVeigh had picked him up, that they had
returned back to McDonald's in Junction City; that they had
gotten out of the vehicle and that was it, and that he hadn't
seen him since.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols indicate that Mr. McVeigh said anything
memorable when he got out of the vehicle at McDonald's?
A. Not on that occasion.
Q. Do you remember the words that Mr. Nichols used to describe
his parting of ways with Mr. McVeigh?
A. He said Mr. McVeigh got out of the vehicle, and that was
it. And that he hadn't seen him since.
Q. And at that time, did Mr. Nichols tell you that Mr. McVeigh
had supposedly asked him to do something at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. When was your and Agent Smith's final break?
A. It would have been from, I believe, 10:20 to 10:50 that
evening.
Q. And did you spend that time talking with other agents?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you remember what the first question was that you asked
Mr. Nichols when you came back from that final break?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And who asked that question?
Scott Crabtree - Direct
A. I did.
Q. Do you remember the exact words that you used?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were they?
A. I asked him to tell us about any storage lockers that he
has had or had had under his care, custody, or control.
Q. And did you tell Mr. Nichols what it was that led you to
ask him about any storage lockers under his care, custody, or
control?
A. No, sir.
Q. After you asked Mr. Nichols this question about storage
lockers, did he later again tell you about his parting from
Mr. McVeigh three days earlier, on Tuesday the 18th?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. And what did he tell you about the way that he and
Mr. McVeigh had parted company on this telling?
A. That upon getting out of the vehicle, Mr. McVeigh had
requested Mr. Nichols to pick up some belongings for him if he
was not able to pick them up himself.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols indicate where he was supposed to pick up
these belongings?
A. A storage locker in Herington.
Q. And did he provide you specific information about that
storage locker?
A. Yes, sir. He described where it was located.
Scott Crabtree - Direct
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you whether or not he actually had
gone and picked up items from the storage locker?
A. Yes, sir, he said he had on the previous day.
Q. On April 20?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did he tell how he had known on April 20 that
Mr. McVeigh would not be able to pick them up by himself?
A. No, sir.
Q. As a native of Herington, Kansas, are you familiar with the
location of the storage locker that Mr. Nichols described to
you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I'm going to show you what's already been introduced into
evidence as Government Exhibit 92. By the way, Agent Crabtree,
how many traffic lights are there in Herington?
A. I believe one just at Broadway and Walnut. Center of town.
Q. Can you look down at your screen and tell me if you see the
location of the storage shed that Mr. Nichols described to you
when you asked him for sheds under his care, custody, and
control?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Would you circle that with your light pen.
Agent Crabtree, what's the larger road that appears in
the background of that picture? Actually, kind of in the
middle of that picture.
Scott Crabtree - Direct
A. That's U.S. 77.
Q. Can you just draw a line on that, please.
Can you approximate about how far it is from U.S. 77
to that particular storage shed.
A. Maybe 100, 150 yards.
Q. When Mr. Nichols told you that he and Mr. McVeigh had
driven back from Oklahoma City on Easter Sunday, did he tell
you what route they took back to Kansas?
A. Yes, sir. They had come up U.S. 77.
Q. And according to Mr. Nichols, when Mr. McVeigh called him
at 6 a.m. on Tuesday, April 18, what did Mr. McVeigh ask him at
that time?
A. He called to see if he could use Mr. Nichols' truck because
he wanted to look at a few vehicles and pick up a few things.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols indicate whether there was any conversation
about Mr. McVeigh picking up a few things on his way up to
Junction City?
A. No, sir.
Q. And how long, according to Mr. Nichols, did Mr. McVeigh
have his truck for on the morning of April 18?
A. Approximately six hours.
Q. According to Mr. Nichols, did Mr. McVeigh ever provide an
explanation as to why he hadn't used the truck during those six
hours to go pick up a few things at the locker?
A. No, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Direct
Q. Agent Crabtree, on April 21, did Terry Nichols tell you at
any time before 11 p.m. that Tim McVeigh asked him to pick up
items at the storage locker?
A. No, sir.
Q. When he told you about cleaning out that storage locker,
Agent Crabtree, did he tell you what name it was under?
A. No, sir.
Q. At any point in the time that you spent with Terry Nichols
on April 21st and April 22d, did he mention the name "Shawn
Rivers" to you?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. And when was that?
A. That would have been on the following day on Saturday,
while we were at the courthouse in Wichita, awaiting for his
initial appearance.
Q. After you'd asked him the night before about storage
lockers under his care, custody, and control?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Nichols why he didn't pick up or drop
off Mr. McVeigh where he was staying instead of at the
McDonald's in Junction City?
A. Yes, sir. We discussed it numerous times.
Q. About how many times did you discuss this?
A. Roughly every time that we went over the story that he was
picked up or dropped off at the McDonald's.
Scott Crabtree - Direct
Q. And when you asked Mr. Nichols this question, did he ever
tell you that he knew precisely where Mr. McVeigh was staying?
A. Not precisely, no.
Q. Did he ever tell you whether he knew anything about where
Mr. McVeigh was staying in Junction City?
A. Yes, sir. Originally, he had said that McVeigh had told
him he had a room in Junction City.
Q. A room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say on the same topic later in the interview?
A. When we discussed it again later, I was trying to get more
information as to where that might be, it was Tim McVeigh said
that he had a friend where he could stay and perhaps get a
vehicle to continue on his travels.
Q. Leaving aside whether it was a friend or a room, was
Mr. Nichols consistent on the more basic question of whether or
not he knew where Tim McVeigh was staying in Junction City?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And what was his consistent answer?
A. That he did not know.
Q. As well as talking to other agents during the last break,
did you also receive some documents between 10:20 and 10:50 in
the evening?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. What were those documents?
Scott Crabtree - Direct
A. Those were some letters that had been received from
Mr. Nichols' former wife by the office in Las Vegas.
Q. And did you read those letters during your break?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I want to show you what's already been received in evidence
as Government Exhibit 1857.
Do you remember the first time that you read this
letter, Agent Crabtree?
A. It would have been during the break from 10:20 to 10:50
that evening.
Q. And when you first read it, do you remember what you
noticed about this letter?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it?
A. The comments that Mr. Nichols had addressed to Mr. McVeigh
regarding "go for it" and "as far as heat, none that I know
of."
Q. And did you take these letters back into the interview with
you?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. What did you do with them?
A. At the end of the interview, we showed them to Mr. Nichols.
Q. Who gave the letters to Mr. Nichols?
A. I did.
Q. And did you say anything to him when you gave him the
Scott Crabtree - Direct
letters?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you say?
A. I asked him to review the letters because we had some
questions we'd like to ask him about them.
Q. And what did Mr. Nichols do when you told him that and you
handed him the letters?
A. He took the letters and seemed to read -- he looked at each
page. I assumed he read every page.
Q. How long did he take to read them?
A. Three or four minutes, maybe.
Q. And what happened at that point?
A. Then we proceeded to ask him questions again.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols provide you an explanation about the
letters?
A. Yes, we asked him what -- what he wrote the letters for,
and he advised us that he was -- he had gone to the
Philippines, and that this was in place of a will.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols tell you what he had done with the letters
when he went to the Philippines?
A. Yes, sir. He had left them with his former wife and she
was to deliver them and/or follow the instructions for her if
he did not return from the Philippines the following January.
Q. So according to Mr. Nichols, what was supposed to happen
with these letters if he actually did return from the
Scott Crabtree - Direct
Philippines safely?
A. He would get then unopened, undelivered, etc.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols explain to you why he thought his life was
in danger?
A. He just said the Philippines weren't a safe place.
Q. And did you have any response to that?
A. Yes, sir. I asked him based on that, if he had written
such letters every time that he had gone to the Philippines.
Q. And what was his response?
A. No, that he hadn't.
Q. Did he tell you whether he had written these type of
letters on any of the other trips that he made to the
Philippines?
A. No, sir. This was the only occasion.
Q. After he told you that he hadn't written letters on any
other trip to the Philippines, did you ask him anything
further?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. What did you ask him?
A. We asked him to tell us what the comments "go for it" and
"as far as heat, none that I know of" meant.
Q. And what was his response?
A. He didn't have one.
Q. Who asked this question?
A. I did.
Scott Crabtree - Direct
Q. And how loud did you ask the question?
A. The same tone of voice we used the whole evening.
Q. Had Mr. Nichols shown any signs of having difficulty
hearing your questions up to that point?
A. No, sir.
Q. And how long did Mr. Nichols sit there after you asked him
to explain ". . . heat, none that I know of" and "go for it"?
A. Maybe 20 or 30 seconds. Something like that.
Q. What happened after there was no response from Mr. Nichols
for that period of time?
A. I asked him another question, and then Steve and I got up
and left the interview, left the room.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Agent Crabtree.
I have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Agent Crabtree.
A. Good morning, sir.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers appointed to
represent Terry Nichols.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You and I have never met, never talked, have we?
A. No, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. At the time of this event, you had been in the FBI for 13
years?
A. A little less than that. 12 1/2, I think. Something in
that neighborhood.
Q. Joined in '82; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is in '95?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were born and raised, grew up in Herington, Tex --
Herington, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And then went to William Jewell College. Where is
that?
A. It's in Liberty. It's a suburb of Kansas City. Kind of on
the northeast section of Kansas City.
Q. Then you went into the FBI a few months after your
graduation; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go in as an accountant?
A. That was the program area that I was under when I got
selected, yes, sir.
Q. When did the FBI drop that requirement that the agents had
to be lawyers or accountants?
A. I'm not sure, sir, if they have ever had that requirement.
I knew at one time, it seemed to be the predominant professions
Scott Crabtree - Cross
that they drew from. But I'm not sure that there was ever a
time when it had to be one or the other.
Q. Did they drop that in '72 after John Edgar Hoover died?
A. Gosh, sir. I don't know. I was in high school. I don't
know what happened then.
Q. At any rate, you got in because you were an accountant
right out of college; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. There was -- yes.
Q. You went to a few big offices and then ended up by yourself
in Salina, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Just a one-man office and that's you; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's 50 miles from your home, Herington?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's part of the area you cover under your
responsibilities, Herington; is that correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. You know the people there, you know the law enforcement
officials there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Because you deal with them?
A. That's part of my liaison responsibilities, being the RA,
is to meet with the locals.
Q. You knew the chief of police, Barry Thacker?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. He wasn't chief at the time, but yes, sir, I knew him.
Q. He was?
A. He was not chief at the time. Dale Kuhn was in charge of
the department at the time.
Q. Well, you had a director of the department of public
safety, which was Dale Kuhn; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And Barry Thacker was designated chief of police, wasn't
he?
A. I'm not sure exactly what his title was. I knew he
answered to Dale Kuhn, and Dale was the person that I would
direct communications to if I was going to write something to
the department.
Q. And how big is Herington? What's the population?
A. Probably a little less than 3,000 people.
Q. Is that pretty much a stand -- a population that existed
when you grew up there, or did it change in any dramatic
fashion?
A. No, sir. I believe it had been around 3,000 from the time
I was born and raised there until -- even till today.
Q. All right. Now, your jurisdiction also covered Junction
City; is that correct?
A. No, sir.
Q. You didn't cover Junction City out of Salina?
A. No, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Was there a resident agent in Junction City?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. When you received word -- well, first, you told the
jury on Friday that you were selected to do the interview
because you had the most knowledge about the case; is that
correct?
A. In Kansas; that's correct, sir.
Q. And you had been working on this case for two days, had you
not? Didn't you start working on it on the 19th?
A. Yes, sir. The afternoon of the 19th; that's correct.
Q. Okay. And did you go to Junction City on the afternoon of
the 19th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, is that within your jurisdiction or did somebody else
cover that area?
A. Junction City is typically covered out of the Topeka
resident agency, sir.
Q. Okay. But you received the call to go to Junction City to
conduct an investigation; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And from where was that call received?
A. The Miami division.
Q. All right. And where did you go when you received that
call?
A. They directed me to go to Elliott's Body Shop there in
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Junction City on the southwest corner of town.
Q. Okay. Before you went to that location, did you make a
phone call to the location?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you instruct the people to do that you talked to
on the telephone?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection. Scope, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. You've advised the jury that you had the most knowledge
about the case; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Kansas?
A. Yes, sir. At that time, yes.
Q. And how did you obtain that knowledge about the case in two
days?
A. Working on leads connected to the case, sir.
Q. All right. And was one of those leads to go to Junction
City to Eldon Elliott's Body Shop?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before going there, did you instruct the individuals to do
anything concerning documents at that location?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Okay. Did you eventually go to the location?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time did you get to Eldon Elliott's Body Shop in
Junction City on Wednesday, April the 19th?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, he said he knew more about the case.
I assume this is questioning about what he knew about the case.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that right?
MR. WOODS: Yes.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. What time did you get to the body -- Eldon Elliott's body
shop?
A. Approximately 4:30, sir.
Q. All right. And did you take possession of any documents?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And what did you do with those documents?
A. I delivered them to agents that had flown up from
headquarters later that evening so they could be returned to
the fingerprint section at headquarters to be checked for
fingerprints.
Q. All right. Now, did you meet with any individuals at Eldon
Elliott's body shop?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Did you meet with them separately?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was the reason why you were meeting with them
separately?
A. So I would get just their story and they wouldn't hear one
another talk.
Q. And was that so that they wouldn't influence each other's
recollection?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many individuals did you meet with at Eldon Elliott's
body shop?
A. Three, sir.
Q. Who were they?
A. Eldon Elliott himself, Vickie Beemer, and Tom Kessinger.
Q. All right. And you interviewed each of those individuals
separately?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you determine when the truck had been rented at Eldon
Elliott's?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What date?
A. It was on the 17th, two days prior.
Q. So the event was recent to your interview on the 19th; is
that correct?
A. Yes, sir. Two days.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Okay. After interviewing the individuals, did -- what did
you do next in connection with the investigation?
A. Besides seeing that the documents were forwarded to
headquarters, coordinated bringing in a sketch artist so that
possible sketches could be made of the person that rented the
vehicle.
Q. And that was your recommendation, was it not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you made that request through what? The chain of
command that existed from Junction City to Kansas City to
Washington?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. And what was your recommendation?
A. That there appeared to be enough information from the
witnesses that I'd spoken to at that occasion that we could
prepare a sketch; and initially, we had anticipated taking the
individuals to Topeka and having maybe a police artist or a
sketch artist there work on it, and then my office advised me
that they would have somebody flown out from headquarters to do
it.
Q. All right. When you say "sketch," are you referring to one
sketch or two?
A. Two, sir.
Q. Okay. What time did the sketch artist arrive from the FBI
headquarters in Washington?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. He got to the command post at Fort Riley, which is where we
were operating at that time, maybe 4:00 the next morning on
the -- Thursday, the 20th.
Q. Okay. 4:00, and were you there at the time, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you have the three witnesses present?
A. They came in shortly thereafter. I called them when I knew
about what time he was going to arrive and asked them to come
in.
Q. What time did they arrive, approximately?
A. I think Tom Kessinger got there first, and it was not too
long after the sketch artist arrived; and then Ms. Beemer and
Mr. Elliott would have arrived maybe a half an hour or so after
that. Maybe around 5:00.
Q. Okay. Now, did you set (sic) in on the interview that the
sketch artist would have with each individual?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you notice whether or not the sketch artist met with
each individual separately?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And you physically observed that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. How long did that process take where the sketch
artist met with each of those three individuals separately?
A. It probably took approximately two hours to meet with all
Scott Crabtree - Cross
three of them, I believe, before the sketches were completed.
Q. Okay. And did you see the end product of the artist from
Washington?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Two sketches?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, what's his name for the record?
A. Ray Rozycki.
Q. Okay. And approximately, then, what time was it that those
sketches were available?
A. I would guess 6:30 to 7.
Q. Okay. And what did you then do in connection with the
investigation?
A. We had to get the sketches disseminated back to our
headquarters. And I worked on the interviews that had already
been conducted. I worked on the paperwork for that. And then
trying to kind of coordinate what our next response there would
be as far as showing the sketch, setting up interview teams
there for Junction City to go out and show sketches to identify
if anybody knew who they were.
Q. Okay. Do you know personally whether or not the sketches
were then taken by agents and gone around the Junction City
area to exhibit to motels, restaurants, gas stations, etc.?
A. Yes, sir. They were.
Q. Did you take part in that?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. No, sir, I directed the teams and drew up the court --
cordons that they were going to follow and to make sure we
didn't have any overlap or any areas that weren't, you know,
talked to or whatever. But then I stayed back at the command
post.
Q. All right. During the day on April the 20th, did you
learn, based upon your presence at command post, that the name
"Timothy McVeigh" came into the investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did you learn was the reason why his name was then
involved in the investigation?
A. That sketch of John Doe No. 1 was shown to the proprietor
at the Dreamland Hotel in Grandview Plaza and that she had been
able to identify him as Tim McVeigh, and then the information
regarding his signing in there and being seen with the Ryder
truck and a yellow vehicle and things of that nature were also
developed at the same time.
Q. And was an address obtained from the registration receipt?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you recall what state the address was?
A. It was for Michigan, for Decker, Michigan, sir.
Q. Decker, Michigan?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And did you interview that proprietor of the
Dreamland Motel, Ms. McGown, on that day, the 20th of April?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. No, sir, I did not go out and do the contacts. That would
have been Mark Bouton, and I'm not sure who we had teamed him
up with.
Q. All right. Now, what time on the 20th -- April the 20th --
did you first hear Terry Nichols' name, if you did?
A. Did not hear his name on the 20th. It would have been
sometime after midnight on the 21st. Later that evening, early
the next morning.
Q. And you're working pretty much around the clock there in
the command post in Junction City?
A. Yeah. At that point, the other people were covering the
leads and I was kind of directing the activity, so I would have
been in the command post, yes, sir.
Q. And was the command post in communication with the Kansas
City office?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that by an open telephone line?
A. Yes, sir. I believe by Thursday, the 20th, we had both the
supervisor for the Kansas RAs, who normally offices in Wichita,
and the assistant special agent in charge of the Kansas City
division who handled the Kansas RAs -- were by then on site
there at the command post.
Q. In Junction City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's Joe Bross, B-R-O-S-S?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. No, sir.
Q. Soon to be ASAC?
A. Yes, sir. He was the ASAC that was on site there.
Q. And who else was there on site in Junction City
supervisory-wise?
A. Mike Pulice, who has since retired.
Q. All right. And were you also in communication with
Washington, D.C.?
A. The command post would have been, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And were you -- when you say "the command post,"
were you ever in communication with Washington in Kansas City?
A. At some point during the first few days, I had some
contacts with the SIOC unit back at headquarters. But by the
time the supervisors and ASAC are on site, it's more of a
chain-of-command situation where, you know, information would
be reported to them and they would report that information off
from there.
Q. All right. What is SIOC in Washington?
A. It's a -- like a strategic-operation-type center where
information on major cases like this or -- say perhaps like the
TWA bombing case or something like that where there's a lot of
offices involved would then try to coordinate all the
information from all the offices to make sure that everybody is
up to speed.
Q. Is that where the high officials of the FBI are located and
Scott Crabtree - Cross
they are in communication with the field office?
A. I do not know if, say, for instance, the director would
have actually been down in the SIOC center or if he would have
been in his -- his own suite or whatever. I'm not sure exactly
how that would work. But that office communicated directly
with him back at headquarters.
Q. And were you in communication with the Detroit, Michigan,
office on that evening, April the 20th, and the early morning
hours of the 21st?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time did you learn Terry Nichols' name?
A. It was sometime after midnight, perhaps 1:00 in the morning
when I got a call back from the Detroit office based on a
request that I had made of them a couple hours earlier.
Q. All right. And what did you learn about Terry Nichols at
that time?
A. Well, the address that Mr. McVeigh had given at the
Dreamland came back to a James Nichols and that that was a farm
owned by him and that James had a brother Terry and that --
and -- or that Tim McVeigh had been known to spend time at that
address and that there was reports of explosive devices or
bombs or whatever being set off in the past at that location.
And that's basically it.
Q. And do you know if that information came from James
Nichols' ex-wife?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. No, sir. The information I got came from the contact I had
at the Detroit office, and that's basically the information
that came to me is that we had a -- we had a good address for a
Tim McVeigh.
Q. And do you know how your contact in Detroit got the
information there in Decker concerning Terry Nichols, James
Nichols, and McVeigh having visited that farm?
A. On that occasion, I believe it was just through a contact
or a call from the Detroit office to the -- I believe the
sheriff's office in the county where Decker is at. Through
contact with someone there.
Q. All right. Were you aware that the FBI went out and
interviewed that deputy sheriff in Sanilac County that covered
Decker, Michigan?
A. Yes, sir, later.
Q. And in that interview, were you aware that Kelly
Langenburg, the former wife of James Nichols, was present?
A. I do not know who they interviewed -- I mean, I don't know
who was present at the time that interview was conducted.
Q. All right. And when you say "explosives," what type of
explosives are you referring to?
A. At the time, they said -- on very early Friday morning is
that there had been, you know, little explosions or bomb-type
activity at the location, but nothing as to what kind of bomb
or what kind of bombs or anything.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. A little explosion like a pop bottle bomb?
A. No, sir. Just as opposed to a building -- the explosion
that brought down the Murrah Building in context from that to
the smaller explosion.
Q. And this is a farm out in the country; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, what time did you leave Junction City to go to
Herington?
A. Probably sometime around 3:30 Friday afternoon. The next
afternoon.
Q. All right. Now, during that morning, Friday morning, the
21st, did you learn information as to Terry Nichols' address in
Herington?
A. It was either that morning or early that afternoon. I
think it might have been sometime around maybe 1 or 2 that
afternoon.
Q. Okay. And were you in contact with the Las Vegas office
there in the command post?
A. The command post was. I had not been, but the command post
was, yes.
Q. And did you learn that through the interview of the former
wife of Terry Nichols; that you then had the address in
Herington, Kansas, of Terry Nichols?
A. Well, we had it that way, and I also had received it via
another way at the same time.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. You received it from Georgia Rucker, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Georgia Rucker is the realtor in Herington that sold
Terry Nichols his house, arranged the sale, wasn't she?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. She heard the name on the news, the television and
radio, didn't she?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she called you because you all are friends?
A. She's a friend of the family, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. She's in Herington; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you all go to school together?
A. No, sir. She's older than I am. Her husband is a friend
of one of my uncles.
Q. All right. But she knew you personally?
A. Yes. We've met before.
Q. And she called you and said what concerning what she heard
over the news about Terry Lynn Nichols?
A. That she knew Mr. Nichols and advised that he had boughten
(sic) a house there in Herington, and she gave me the address
for the house.
Q. All right. What time did you get that information?
A. Sometime around 2:30.
Q. Okay. And do you recall what time Terry Nichols' name
Scott Crabtree - Cross
started being broadcast over the news media?
A. During those first few days, I didn't watch the news or
didn't hear the news; but when Georgia had called me, she said
that she had heard it on a radio broadcast or something a few
minutes earlier. So I mean, that's the first inclination I had
that his name would have been mentioned in the press.
Q. And that was at 2:30 --
A. Sometime --
Q. -- Kansas time?
A. Sometime before 2:30. I mean, she had -- it took her a few
minutes to find me because I wasn't in Salina, so she had to
initially call the Kansas City office and get my beeper number
and she beeped me, and I called her back.
Q. Okay. And did you know Mr. Seek, Ken Seek that had sold
the house to Mr. Nichols?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. You were familiar with that neighborhood, weren't
you?
A. South 2nd?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, sir. At one time I lived in a house approximately two
blocks from there when I was younger.
Q. Okay. When you got the address, you could picture in your
mind exactly where it was, couldn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Okay. Now, again, what time was it then that you left the
command post in Junction City to go to Herington?
A. I think it was about 3:30, give or take a few minutes.
Q. Now, were you aware that other people -- other people in
the FBI, that is -- were en route to Herington or already in
Herington at that time as of 2:30?
A. Yes, sir. I believe so.
Q. Okay. Who was in Herington, to your knowledge?
A. Steve Smith, who had been at the command post and had been
working with me the last couple of days. And I knew we were
trying to get some surveillance agents down there, but I don't
know at what time they arrived or anything in Herington.
Q. Steve Smith had been working with you in the command post
in Junction City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what time did he depart and go to Herington, Kansas?
A. I don't know, sir. But the Friday afternoon, we had quite
a few agents there at the command post. I -- I had kind of
lost track of the individual happenings of the different agents
and things.
Q. Sure. He left before you did, though; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was in Herington?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were aware that a surveillance team was there or
Scott Crabtree - Cross
en route?
A. I believe so, yes, sir.
Q. And is that called a Special Operations Group?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did that include? What was part of the
surveillance operation?
A. It's a squad of typically eight or ten agents that have
vehicles that are -- that are trained, and that's basically
their job is to -- to do surveillances to find people and watch
people, for substantive investigations that are going on.
Q. Was there an airplane involved?
A. I believe so, but I -- I'm not positive.
Q. And you have FBI airplanes in the Kansas City office, do
you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Assigned to the office?
A. I believe so, sir.
Q. Are they multiengine or single engine?
A. I've never had the occasion to have to ask for air
surveillance, so I -- I really don't know.
Q. Okay.
A. I imagine we have the availability to -- if we don't have
the proper aircraft, to -- to rent it or lease it or whatever;
and our pilots are trained to fly just about everything.
Q. And your office is Kansas City and you're a resident agent
Scott Crabtree - Cross
in Salina; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know Steve Smith, who is a resident agent in
Topeka?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you knew John Foley?
A. Yes.
Q. And was Foley in Kansas City? Was that his assignment?
A. Yes. I believe he was assigned to the Kansas City office,
itself.
Q. And what about Dan Jablonski?
A. He was Wichita. A Wichita resident agent, sir.
Q. So you knew all of these people, you'd worked with them
before?
A. I had met them before. Unfortunately, being in a
one-person office, you don't really work with many other people
unless -- it's a very rare occasion that you have a chance to
work with them. As far as, you know -- I knew Dan from just
going to Wichita and going to the United States Attorney's
office and seeing him.
Steve, this is really the first time I had a chance to
work with him was during this particular event. I mean, I had
met him at firearms and our fitness tests and things of that
nature, but this was our first real chance to work together.
Q. Okay. Now, you advised the jury that there was a
Scott Crabtree - Cross
surveillance team en route or there. Do you know what time
they got there?
A. I believe I heard it was like 3:00, 2:45, something to that
time effect. I know that Steve had told me he met with Jack
Foley sometime around that time, and I think Foley was part of
the surveillance team, if I'm not mistaken.
Q. Were -- could you -- within the command post, you had a
radio there; is that correct?
A. There were radios and telephones and --
Q. And they were in communication with the agents in Herington
and en route; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. There would have been people there talking to
them.
Q. And you were aware that a S.W.A.T. team had been dispatched
out of Kansas City, were you not?
A. No, sir. I don't -- at the time, I didn't know that if
that's, in fact, true. Now, I'm not sure.
Q. You're telling the jury you weren't aware that there was a
S.W.A.T. team dispatched out of Kansas City?
A. By that time, we had all the management on site. My direct
knowledge of everything that was going on coordinating the
investigation was much more focused now. I knew about the
Special Operations Group going down there, but I do not
specifically recall at that time hearing that there was a
S.W.A.T. team en route.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. When you say the command staff was on site, are you
speaking of David Tubbs, the special agent in charge? Had he
arrived at the command post in Junction City?
A. Yes, sir. I believe he had arrived by that time.
Q. What time?
A. I believe sometime around midday. Maybe noon, 1:00.
Q. Certainly before you left the command post?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were not aware that he had dispatched a S.W.A.T.
team out of Kansas City to Herington, Kansas?
A. At that time, no, sir.
Q. What time did you become aware of it?
A. I said I've only heard since that comments about there
being a S.W.A.T. team. I don't know for a fact that there was
a S.W.A.T. team. I've just heard conversations about it.
Q. What is a S.W.A.T. team, to your knowledge, in the FBI?
A. It's just a special tactical team that each office has that
we used to make arrests or, you know, provide a perimeter
around an operation or something like that that might need it.
Q. And you left Junction City at 3:30, was it again?
A. Yes, sir. About that time.
Q. You had your radio on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you were in communication, you could hear and receive
orders from the command post; is that correct?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. Well, when we talked the command post, we use a cellular
phone, but . . .
Q. And you could talk -- did you have a cellular phone with
you as you were driving down to Herington?
A. Yes, sir. We were in Dan Jablonski's car, and he had a
cellular phone and we -- we had contact on the way down with
command post via the cellular phone. I cannot recall
specifically if he had a Bureau radio in his car or not. It is
a -- it's a Task Force car, and I'm not sure that they would
put a radio in that kind of a car. I just don't know.
Q. Well, all Bureau cars have radios in them, don't they?
A. I don't think our undercover cars do. We wouldn't want to
put a drug dealer or something in an undercover car and have
him see a Bureau radio in it.
Q. Were you in an undercover car?
A. It was a Task Force car, and I think it was used from time
to time for that purpose. It was a Lexus, I believe, or
something so . . .
Q. And you're stating there was no radio in that?
A. Not that I recall, sir.
Q. But you had a cellular phone; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, we did. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. Where did you go when you arrived at Herington?
A. To the Department of Public Safety office there on South
Broadway.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. And you knew where that was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had been there before?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you see outside when you arrived at the location?
A. There was a number of vehicles there from people that had
already been in Herington.
Q. A number of FBI vehicles?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many?
A. Six, eight. I -- there was cars there. I'm not sure. I
mean, the police office had vehicles there, also. I --
Q. You can recognize FBI cars, can't you?
A. Usually. They typically look the same.
Q. How many -- how many did you see when you arrived there?
A. My guess would be six to eight. I don't know that when I
pulled up I was, you know, looking to count the number of
Bureau cars there.
Q. It takes about 30 minutes to drive from Junction City to
Herington?
A. It would have taken a little longer, because we were
actually at Fort Riley when we left. We were on the base, so
it wouldn't have been quite as fast if it had been from
Junction City down there.
Q. What time did you arrive?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. Probably sometime after 4. Shortly after 4.
Q. Did you notice Mr. Nichols' pickup in the parking lot?
A. Like I said, I wasn't really paying attention to the
vehicles that were outside. That vehicle would have meant
nothing to me prior to walking into the -- the police station,
so I -- I might have looked right at it. I just don't have any
specific recollection of saying, Okay, there's Terry Nichols'
vehicle.
Q. You certainly became acquainted with it the next day or the
day after, didn't you?
A. Well, I saw it later that evening when it had been pulled
into the garage. That's -- you know. At that time, yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall seeing it when you drove up a short time
after 4 p.m.?
A. Not specifically, sir. Like I said, I was not attuned to
what vehicles were setting (sic) in the parking lot at the
department there.
Q. Do you know whether or not there -- Mr. Nichols' car in the
parking lot had been impounded; that is, taken into custody by
the FBI and entry and access to the automobile restricted?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection to time, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Shortly after 4 p.m. when you arrived, do you know whether
or not the FBI had taken into custody Mr. Nichols' vehicle?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. No, sir.
Q. You don't know that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, you and Mr. Jablonski are together and the two
of you go into the police station; is that correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. Who is present in the police station upstairs when you
arrive?
A. The supervisor by the name of Tom Price was there and a few
of his people on his Special Operations Squad that had been
around.
Q. And who was that?
A. I believe Agent Gillispie was there. Sheila Dobson might
have been there. I -- I don't know all these people by face at
the time. Like I said, I hadn't had a chance to work with them
very much. So when I walked in, I saw a lot of faces that I
just didn't recognize that I come to know later through contact
the rest of the evening.
Q. Okay. And when you walked in, did you learn that no arrest
warrant had been obtained as of that time?
A. I -- I knew that, sir, yes.
Q. All right. How did you know that?
A. Well, nobody told me one had been. We weren't told until
much later in the evening that there was an arrest warrant
issued.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. And were you aware that the process had begun to obtain an
arrest warrant as of that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not have any discussion with Supervisor Price on
the scene or the other agents as to the presence or lack of an
arrest warrant?
A. No, sir. Mostly how the situation had gotten to the point
where it was, because I was going to go down and join the
interview.
Q. And when you began an interview, is it something you need
to know, whether or not an arrest warrant has been obtained of
that individual?
A. I would want to know, sir, I think, yes.
Q. And what inquiry did you make to determine that?
A. I didn't ask. I didn't ask if it had been.
Q. It didn't come to your curiosity about why the FBI is in
Herington, Kansas, en masse and whether or not there had been
an arrest warrant --
THE COURT: He answered that he didn't ask.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Were you aware that the FBI was in Herington en masse?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection to "en masse," your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Okay. Were you aware that there were a number of FBI
people in Herington, Kansas, at that time?
A. Yes, sir. As I've already stated, Mr. Smith and a number
of people from the Special Operations Squad were in Herington.
Q. Okay. And what time, then, did you go downstairs to begin
your part of the interview?
A. Approximately 4:12, sir.
Q. What happened when you went downstairs?
A. We went into the room, introduced ourselves to Mr. Nichols,
and then set down, discussed going over the notes with
Mr. Nichols to bring me up to speed as to what had been said
and proceeded from there.
Q. Okay. Now, you -- you told the prosecutor Friday afternoon
that you were familiar with the FBI policy on recording
interviews of witnesses. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you said that you had read that policy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. How recent had you read it?
A. I'm not sure exactly. It had probably been a while. I --
I don't tape interviews, so it's not something that I would --
would have been something I was dealing with on a regular
basis.
Q. Well, did you advise the jury on Friday as to what the
Scott Crabtree - Cross
policy is?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In detail?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall the questions, "Do you know if the FBI has a
policy with regard to the tape-recording of witness interviews?
"Answer: Yes, they do.
"Question: How long has that policy been in effect?"
MR. GOELMAN: Objection.
THE COURT: Yes. What's your purpose in asking him to
review testimony?
MR. WOODS: The policy as he stated it, and I want to
offer into evidence the one-paragraph policy which is not --
THE COURT: Well, ask him about that, rather than his
prior testimony.
MR. WOODS: All right. Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
May I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Crabtree, I'll show you Defense Exhibit 1656, which has
been provided to us by the Government. If you would review
that one-paragraph policy.
A. Okay, sir.
Q. Does that refresh your memory as to what the policy is?
A. Yes, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Was that the policy you were testifying about on Friday
afternoon?
A. Yes, sir. This is the Bureau policy since before I came in
the Bureau.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may it please the Court, the
Government (sic) would offer into evidence this one-paragraph
policy on the FBI policy of recording suspects, subjects and
witnesses.
MR. GOELMAN: No objection, although the Government is
not offering it, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, it's a defense witness. I
understand that. I mean, defense exhibit. D1656 is received.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Your Honor, may I publish?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, Mr. Crabtree, you mentioned only to the jury the
interview of witnesses. This policy covers interview of
subjects and suspects -- is that correct -- along with
witnesses?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you tell the jury in the Bureau terminology what the
difference between a witness, subject, and suspect is.
A. Witness would be someone you're contacting for information
about a particular event. A suspect is somebody that might
Scott Crabtree - Cross
have more than just knowledge, might have some connection to a
particular event, although nothing definite to link them to a
particular act that we're investigating. Subject would be the
person that is actually the subject of the investigation that
we believe might have actually broken the law, whatever the law
is that is the subject of that particular investigation.
MR. WOODS: All right. Now, I'm not sure that the
jury can read this. Your Honor, I would ask that Mr. Crabtree
read the document.
THE COURT: Well, you read it.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: It's an exhibit. You can read it.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. This comes from section 7, confessions and interrogation;
is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is out of the FBI manual?
A. The legal handbook, yes.
Q. "Tape-recording of interviews. Use of tape recorders for
the purpose of recording the statements of witnesses, suspects,
and subjects is permissible on a limited, highly selective
basis and only when authorized by the SAC." Is that special
agent in charge?
A. Yes, sir. That's what the SAC is.
Q. "To ensure the voluntariness of statement electronically
Scott Crabtree - Cross
recorded, the following conditions are to be adhered to.
No. 1, the recording equipment must be in plain view of the
interviewee. No. 2, consent of the interviewee to the
recording must be obtained and clearly indicated on the tape.
(3) the questioning must be carefully prepared so that the tone
of voice and wording of the questions do not intimidate or
coerce. No. 4, recording tapes must not be edited or altered,
and the originals must be sealed and stored in such a manner as
to ensure the chain of custody. See the SAC memorandum" such
and such "dated 7-29-75."
Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did you make inquiry of David Tubbs, the special agent
in charge, as to whether or not you should tape-record this
interview?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did Agent Tubbs instruct you to not record the interview?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you have any reason to believe that Mr. Nichols would
not give his consent to a tape-recorded interview, since he was
there voluntarily to answer questions and ask questions?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: I had no specific information at that
time to indicate one way or the other.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. At any rate, it's true that you did not record the
interview; is that correct?
A. We did not tape it. That's true, sir.
Q. When you went down to the interview room, it was Agent
Smith and Agent Foley that were conducting the interview; is
that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you told the jury that they read the notes to you and
Jablonski to bring you up to date?
A. Yes, sir. Agent Smith went over the notes. They were his
notes.
Q. All right. And Mr. Nichols at that time made some
additions, corrections; is that correct?
A. I believe he might have made an addition or two, but --
nothing remarkable enough that I even remember what it was.
Q. And you didn't remember what it was?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. What have you used to refresh your memory of this
interview that took place two-and-a-half years ago?
A. The FD 302, the summary of the interview, and the
typewritten version of Agent Smith's notes, and just another --
other items and documents that we had at the time would help
put me in the frame of mind that I had that occasion when we
were doing the interview.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. So Agent Smith's notes are the only thing that was made
contemporaneous with the interview; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you've reviewed those?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
THE COURT: Well, excuse me. I -- there are two notes
here. One is the typed version. One is the handwritten.
THE WITNESS: The typed version.
THE COURT: I think you said the typed version.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I cannot read Mr. Smith's
notes tough -- handwritten notes enough to be able to rely on
those.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Did you check with the handwritten notes and the
typewritten notes to see if they were accurate?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. You just read the typewritten notes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And that's the only contemporaneous memorandum
we have of the interview; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. Well, the notes are, yes.
Q. And you're aware that Mr. Smith took notes before you got
there at 4:12?
A. That is correct, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Approximately how long had he -- had he interviewed
Mr. Nichols?
A. I believe they had been there for maybe almost an hour at
that point.
Q. And he read you notes that -- relating to what had been
said during that period of time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, how long did that take, the reading of the notes?
A. Maybe 10 minutes or so, sir.
Q. All right. What happened at that point?
A. Then we began carrying forward from there.
Q. And when you say "we," were all four of you there
interviewing Mr. Nichols?
A. For a little while, yes, sir.
Q. Who was doing the questioning?
A. Primarily at that point, I began doing the questioning.
Q. And who was taking the notes?
A. Agent Smith.
Q. And when you say "primarily," were the other two, Jablonski
and Foley, asking questions, also?
A. Throughout the interview, whether it be Agent Smith or
them, there could have been other people. I wasn't the sole
person asking questions. I would probably be classified maybe
as the primary questioner.
Q. So you had three people asking Mr. Nichols questions as
Scott Crabtree - Cross
they thought of them?
A. At that point, the primary matters that Agents Foley and
Jablonski questioned Mr. Nichols about was his willingness to
execute the consent to search form.
Q. So while you're asking him questions about his knowledge of
Mr. McVeigh, when he last saw him, they are asking questions
about signing a consent form?
A. Well, we began that discussion. That discussion started
and ended before we got back then into the interview.
Q. Well, how long did Foley and Jablonski stay in the
interview?
A. After we completed our review of notes, it probably took 5
or 10 minutes to do the consent. They were probably there a
total of maybe 40 minutes or so for the review of notes, doing
the consent and a little bit of the questioning.
Q. A little bit of the questioning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But that will be reflected in Agent Smith's notes; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir. It should show.
Q. He was keeping contemporaneous notes of what was being said
during that interview; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you mentioned to the jury Friday that Mr. Nichols was
doing something unusual, in that he was taking time after a
Scott Crabtree - Cross
question and he was -- what did you say? He was closing his
eyes and thinking for a little while?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you told him to stop that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Here's a person who -- did he advise you that he had heard
his name on television in connection with this bombing?
A. He advised us he had heard his name in the press, yes, sir.
Q. Did he advise you he had heard the press conference of the
Attorney General saying she was going to seek the death penalty
on everybody involved in this case?
A. He saw the press conference. I don't know if we talked
about if he mentioned the death penalty or not. I don't recall
him saying that.
Q. And if he wants to take a moment before answering the
question, you found that unusual and you instructed him to stop
it?
A. A moment wouldn't have bothered me, sir. When we're
discussing things that had happened within the two or three
days previously and it was taking 20 to 30 seconds to come up
with a fairly straightforward response, that seemed to be
excessive, yes, sir.
Q. Were you in some rush?
A. No, sir. I just wanted him to tell us the truth, and I
didn't see where having to take that long was an indicator that
Scott Crabtree - Cross
that's what he was doing.
Q. Were you aware that an arrest warrant was going to be
executed that night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are you telling this jury that you had no reason to be
rushing this interview, trying to get as much information as
you could in as short a period of time as you could?
A. There was no particular reason to rush this interview.
Everything up until that point had been at a very fast pace.
We were hoping Mr. Nichols would be able to give us some lead
information that would track us to Mr. McVeigh or Un. Sub. 2 or
whoever.
Q. You knew where Mr. McVeigh was at that time. He was in FBI
custody.
A. Yes, sir. I did.
Q. And your questioning to start off the interview was what
Mr. Nichols knew about Mr. McVeigh, wasn't it? All of his
contacts with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's reflected in the notes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the progress of this interview will be reflected in
those notes, the subject matters that you discussed; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Now, you told the prosecutor this morning that Mr. Nichols
didn't mention storage sheds until you came back in with the
letters after that last break at 10:50; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Well, in the letters, it mentions the storage sheds that he
had in Las Vegas, didn't it?
A. Yes, sir. And that's where the --
Q. He fairly told you, readily told you that he had storage
lockers in Las Vegas, didn't he?
A. Yes, sir. After we questioned him about the storage sheds,
yes, sir.
Q. That's the first time you questioned him about storage
sheds, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So the fact that he didn't mention it early in the
interview -- there's certainly nothing incriminating about
that, is there?
A. Only to the point that he didn't tell us about a
conversation regarding moving some of Mr. McVeigh's belongings
from the storage shed. I thought that was kind of odd that he
didn't mention that earlier when we asked him to discuss all
contacts and discussions with Mr. McVeigh. I thought --
Q. He told you that --
THE COURT: Let him finish his answer.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. He told that you he dropped Mr. McVeigh off in Junction
City on Tuesday afternoon; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then when the storage shed subject came up, he then
volunteered to you that, oh, yes, Mr. McVeigh asked me,
concerning storage sheds I have access to -- he asked me to
clear out the storage shed in Herington. He gave you the exact
address and the exact location of that storage shed, didn't he,
sir?
A. After I asked him, yes, sir, he did.
Q. He didn't deceive you as to the location of it, did he?
A. No, sir.
Q. Told you exactly which one it was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he also told you that he had storage sheds at Council
Grove, didn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he gave you the names of Parker and Kyle, didn't he?
A. The following afternoon, sir, yes, he did.
Q. Now, these comments that you made to the prosecutor about
the questions of the "go for it" and the "heat": Those would
be reflected in the notes -- is that correct -- because you put
such importance on those two statements in the letters that you
showed to Mr. Nichols?
Scott Crabtree - Cross
A. The questions that I asked will not be in the notes. It's
not typical for an agent to record his questions in his own
notes.
Q. So the notes are not going to reflect anything about "go
for it" or "heat" because you didn't -- Mr. Smith didn't put
anything down about the questions?
A. He didn't list my questions; and then, of course, we didn't
get a response so there wouldn't be anything there, either.
Q. Sometimes he does list the questions -- Mr. Smith does --
doesn't he?
A. I believe there was a couple of times that he did, yes,
sir.
Q. But you didn't think this was important enough to put --
Mr. Smith didn't put them in the notes; is that correct?
A. Mr. Smith was taking the notes. I don't know what he wrote
down at that time, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. Certainly wouldn't have been till after.
Q. So everything you learned about the storage lockers at
Herington and Council Grove came from Mr. Nichols -- is that
correct -- during the course of that interview?
A. No, sir. Actually, the letter to Mr. McVeigh from
Mr. Nichols discusses the Council Grove storage lockers. The
information regarding the Herington locker came up as a result
of Mr. Nichols' telling us about removing Mr. McVeigh's
Scott Crabtree - Cross
belongings.
Q. That he voluntarily mentioned it; is that correct? You
didn't know anything about the Herington locker until he told
you about it?
A. No, sir. Not at that time, we didn't know.
Q. Okay. Would you agree with me, Agent Crabtree, that it
sure would be easier for this jury if you'd have recorded that
conversation, those nine hours you were there?
A. Yes, sir. If we had considered him possibly a subject at
the time, there's a good chance we would have recorded it. But
he was just a witness; and I'd interviewed numerous witnesses
up to that point on this case, and I hadn't recorded any of
those interviews then, so --
Q. How many occasions in interviewing witnesses does the FBI
send out S.W.A.T. teams and Special Operations Groups?
A. I don't know, sir. It's a big organization. I don't know
how often.
Q. You certainly have never been on an operation where you
went to interview a witness and they sent out a S.W.A.T. team
and a Special Operations Group, have you?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. You also interviewed Mr. Nichols the following
day when you took him from the jail in Abilene down to Wichita,
didn't you?
A. That's correct, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. And Mr. Smith was doing the driving?
A. Yes, sir. He was.
Q. So you took the notes?
A. No, sir. We didn't take notes.
Q. Well, you -- may I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Let me show you what has been provided to us by -- the
Government's represented as those are your notes of the
interview of the 22d. Is that in error?
A. Those are notes that I took once we arrived in Wichita at
the courthouse after our transportation of Mr. Nichols to the
court was complete. We had no intention of interviewing
Mr. Nichols during that trip. I didn't have a notebook or
anyone to take notes during the trip. These, as I said, were
just kind of a recollection I had once I got to Wichita as to
what he had discussed during the trip down there to at that
point.
Q. How long did it take to drive from Abilene to Wichita?
A. Approximately an hour and a half.
Q. And you stated that you had no intention of interviewing
Mr. Nichols during that trip?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you receive those instructions from the U.S. Attorney?
A. No, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. Did you receive them from the U.S. Attorney's office?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you aware that Mr. Nichols was going to be provided an
attorney once he arrived in court there in Wichita?
A. Yes, sir. I advised him of that fact when we were leaving
the Dickinson County detention facility.
Q. And your purpose was you weren't going to ask any
questions? You'd asked all the questions you needed to the
evening before; is that correct?
A. We'd asked questions to the point where we thought we
should have got a particular answer to the letters. We didn't
get it. At that point, I didn't see much reason for going on
if we weren't going to discuss, you know, what I thought was
clearly something that he should have answered.
Q. Well, you stopped your interview at 12:11; is that correct?
A. I believe that's the time, sir, yes.
Q. And then he was continued to be interviewed by Jablonski
and Foley, didn't he?
A. I believe they went in and talked to him for a few minutes,
sir, yes.
Q. And then arrested him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the material witness arrest warrant; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when did you first learn during that evening that the
Scott Crabtree - Cross
warrant had finally been obtained out of Oklahoma City?
A. During the break from 10:20 to 10:50.
Q. And when you say "break," are you referring to your break?
A. Just a break we took from interviewing Mr. Nichols.
Q. Well, Mr. Nichols would continue to be interviewed by
Jablonski and Foley when you and Smith would go upstairs,
wouldn't he?
A. I think during the first break, Mr. Nichols began talking
to Agents Foley and Jablonski. During the second time that we
had separated from him, he drew a sketch of his house
indicating where we might find firearms and ammunition. I
don't think there was any discussion during the third break.
It was a break only in the sense that we broke apart from him.
We were going upstairs to get more information, to tell people
what we had found, and to see if there was information that we
needed to have to go down and complete the interview.
Q. So the break was a break away from him, but he continued to
be interviewed by Jablonski and Foley; is that correct?
A. I don't think I can term it as being interviewed, sir. My
understanding is he voluntarily started talking to them during
the second break. Our intention was that statements and
questions would come from Agent Smith and myself after the
point that I arrived so we would have one statement made to the
two of us, so we wouldn't have situations where there would be
multiple statements to multiple agents.
Scott Crabtree - Cross
Q. And after that first break when you went back to resume
your interview with Mr. Nichols, Mr. Jablonski read from his
notes to relate the contents of the interview he had had with
Mr. Nichols, did he not?
A. Yes, sir. We went over the notes to the discussion of what
Mr. Nichols had told him during that break; that's correct.
Q. So the break is a break away, not a time to rest; is that
correct?
A. I don't know if Mr. Nichols wanted to not talk or decided
to talk. I don't know what -- I don't know how that whole
particular situation transpired. I wasn't there, sir.
Q. And then the second break, you come back and he's drawing a
diagram of his house. Is that your testimony?
A. He had during that break. I think he was done by the time
we got back, sir.
Q. And did you see the diagram?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it a floor plan of the various rooms and garage of his
house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he point out the location of the weapons and the
ammunition in his house?
A. Yes, sir. There was a key on it that showed where
different things would be found.
Q. Okay. Now, you didn't take part in the search the
Scott Crabtree - Cross
following day; is that correct?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you do with that diagram that Mr. Nichols drew so
that the agents would know where the guns and weapons were?
A. That had been something that had been produced during the
break by Agents Foley and Jablonski. They would have kept that
document, and I could not tell you what either of those agents
would have done with that particular document after we left
Herington.
Q. Do you know whether or not they participated in the search?
A. I don't know if they did or not, sir.
Q. Now, those notes that you have in front of you: Are they
an accurate reflection of what you wrote down as soon as you
got to Wichita to make a note of the conversation you'd had
with Terry Nichols en route?
A. Those -- this is the summary of what I recall during the
conversation that he'd had with us on the way down there, yes.
Q. Will you read that short three or four lines into the
record of your notes.
A. Okay. "Asked about being gone Tuesday, the 18th. Counting
the same. Manhattan. Kinko's business cards and mailing
labels. Then went --" and I cannot read my writing on this
particular next word here. "Got insurance. Pickup. Vehicle
inspection. Home just after 5."
Q. So you were going over the details of Tuesday, April the
Scott Crabtree - Cross
18th, with him; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. He recounted those details to us again.
Q. But you can't read something in your notes?
A. There is a particular word here that I cannot make out what
it is.
Q. Didn't record that conversation, either; is that correct?
A. No, sir.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor. No further
questions.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have any redirect?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent Crabtree, defense counsel asked you some questions
about the FBI taping policy.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you actually read that into the record. Does that --
is that a policy that applies to subjects as well as to
witnesses?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was Mr. Nichols when you walked into that
interview at 4:12?
A. Hopefully, a witness to help us find more information on
Tim McVeigh.
Q. When you walked into that interview, did you have any
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
specific reason to suspect that he might have been involved in
the bombing?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did talk to Mr. Woods about some of the other
interviews you did?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. Of other witnesses?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On this case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you tape any of them?
A. No, sir.
Q. You told the jury on Friday, I believe, that you've never
been in an FBI interview that has been taped; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Have you ever sat in on interviews done by other law
enforcement agencies?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which ones?
A. Kansas Bureau of Investigation, police departments, Salina
and Hays, and other departments since I've been in.
Q. About how many interviews have you been in with the Kansas
Bureau of Investigation, for example?
A. Maybe 30 to 40 or so. Mostly regarding bank robberies or
things of that nature. More violent-crime-type cases.
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
Q. Were any of those taped?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever been in an interview of a witness that was
taped?
A. No, sir.
Q. And is it your understanding that this policy that you read
into the record applies to undercover investigations, as well?
A. No, sir. It does not.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you some questions about your knowledge of
the investigation before you walked into that interview on
April 21; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were talking about information that the FBI had
learned from Ms. McGown, manager of the Dreamland Motel; is
that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What information did Ms. McGown provide about Mr. McVeigh's
stay at the Dreamland?
A. That he had been there at the Dreamland from the 14th of
April through the 18th of April; that he had, for part of the
time, a yellow Mercury-type vehicle. And she also saw him with
a Ryder truck during that stay. That he gave an address of the
Nichols farm in Michigan. That's the sum and substance of it.
Q. Did you learn from different sources at the Dreamland if
that yellow Mercury had been parked at the motel from the 14th
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
to 18th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And had it been parked that entire time at the motel?
A. No, sir. Not the entire time.
Q. Did you -- did they provide a date at which they no longer
saw the Mercury at the motel?
A. After Sunday, sir.
Q. Easter Sunday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did they tell you when the last time that they saw Tim
McVeigh at the Dreamland?
A. It would have been the 18th, sir.
Q. The -- what time on the 18th?
A. That, I'm not sure, sir. I can't recall at this point.
Q. Did they tell you whether or not they ever saw Mr. McVeigh
in the company of anyone else?
MR. WOODS: Can we get a date and time that this day
telling is going on.
THE COURT: Yes. You should have it. Before the
interview, I assume you're talking about.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Do you know if -- if Ms. McGown was asked if Mr. McVeigh
checked in alone or not?
A. I don't specifically recall that, sir.
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
Q. Turning back to your investigation at Elliott's Body
Shop --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- you determined that there -- the investigation
determined that that's where the bomb truck had been rented?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have -- did you have any knowledge when you went
into that interview about the specific phone call that was made
to initiate the rental of that truck?
A. Prior to going into the interview?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know -- did Ms. Beemer when you -- when you
interviewed her tell you about any call that she had taken?
A. Yes, sir. She advised that she had received a call on
Friday from someone that wanted to rent a truck primarily based
on poundage of what was to be transported, as opposed to the
number of rooms of goods that had to be transported.
Q. Friday: That would be April 14th?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you some questions about the S.W.A.T. team
being dispatched. Do you know what time the S.W.A.T. team
arrived in Herington?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever see the S.W.A.T. team in Herington?
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you hear that the S.W.A.T. team was later called off?
A. No, sir. I just heard vaguely that the -- comments about
the S.W.A.T. team being involved. I know nothing specifically
about it. I was in the interview, and I really didn't know
what was going on outside the interview during that evening.
Q. Knowing, as you did, on the 21st about Mr. McVeigh's stay
at the Dreamland from April 14 to April 18, did that affect at
all the questions that you asked Mr. Nichols in the course of
that interview?
A. Certainly.
Q. And how -- how did it affect that?
A. We wanted to know if there had been any contact between the
two of them based on the information from the Detroit office
that both McVeigh had been associated with that address which
was owned by Terry's brother; that we expected there might be
some contact between these two individuals if they were, in
fact, that close to one another. In that proximity, anyway.
Q. And at any time during April 21st or 22d, 1995, did
Mr. Nichols admit to you that he knew that Tim McVeigh stayed
at the Dreamland?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you if you had any reason to suspect that
if you had a tape recorder and it was taping the interview that
Mr. Nichols would refuse to talk to you; is that right?
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you said that you had no information one way or
another?
A. I had no specific information, no, sir.
Q. Did you learn during the course of the interview that
Mr. Nichols had declined to sign a form because the word
"interrogation" reminded him of the Nazis?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many people were present in the interview -- how many
FBI agents spoke to Mr. Nichols at one time with the exception
of the half-hour period when you and Agent Jablonski first
arrived?
A. It would have just been Agent Smith and myself. Primarily
me doing the questioning, Steve asking questions if, you know,
maybe something pertained to what he was trying to put into the
notes.
Q. And you had other FBI agents in the Herington Department of
Public Safety at the time; is that right?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. Why did you use only two agents to speak to Mr. Nichols?
A. That is -- traditionally, when we do an interview, we use
two agents. No really reason to have more than that. It may
feel coercive or something to the person being interviewed if
there was a great number of agents present.
Q. When you went in -- when you returned to the interview
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
after your last break at 10:50 --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- you have letters with you that the FBI had received from
Las Vegas; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you immediately show Mr. Nichols those letters?
A. Immediately, no, sir.
Q. Do you ask your questions about any storage lockers under
his care, custody, or control before or after you showed him
those letters?
A. That was the first subject matter that we discussed upon
returning to the interview.
Q. And did Mr. Nichols ask you what your source was for asking
about storage lockers?
A. No, sir.
Q. When he provided you with storage lockers, he provided you
with information about three of them; is that right?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. And you said on cross-examination that he told you about a
storage shed in Council Grove; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many storage sheds in Council Grove did he tell you?
A. One, sir.
Q. Did he ever tell you that he had another storage shed in
the very same -- in the very same business?
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
A. No, sir.
Q. And you indicated that on the 22d, Mr. Nichols provided you
with two names -- is that right -- that he had used?
A. That he himself had used, yes, sir.
Q. And those names were "Jim Kyle" and "Ken Parker"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he ever provide you with the name "Daryl Bridges"?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he ever provide you with the name "Terry Havens"?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or "Joe Havens"?
A. No, sir.
Q. You talked about the trip that you took with Mr. Nichols
from Abilene to Wichita; is that right? The day after the main
part of the interview?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. And had you and Agent Smith discussed what you were going
to do during this trip before you picked Mr. Nichols up?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. Can you describe that discussion for us?
A. Just that we would not ask any questions. We would just
pick him up and transport him to Wichita and deliver him for
his initial appearance, and that would be it.
Q. And what was the reason for that?
A. Again, we had given Mr. Nichols ample opportunity, I think,
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
the night before to explain to us all his contacts and
communications with Mr. McVeigh. And we don't believe that he
did, especially in relationship to the last letter we showed
him. At that point, there was really no further (sic) in going
with the questions if we can't get responses to the questions
we've already asked.
Q. And you indicated that despite this, Mr. Nichols himself
started talking to you down when you were on that -- on that
trip down to Wichita?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he start talking about?
A. The first thing he started talking about was he inquired of
us whether they had -- we'd conducted the search of his home or
not.
Q. During the course of the interviews on the 21st and 22d,
did Mr. Nichols ever express a particular concern about what
agents would find when they searched his house?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did he express any concern about confusion they might
have?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He was hopeful that anybody that would be doing the search
of his residence wouldn't mistake household items, later
clarified as cleaning solvents -- mistake those in connection
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
with bomb-making materials.
Q. What do you mean, "later clarified as cleaning solvents"?
A. After he made that statement, "household items," I think
that begged a further question on my part. So I followed up
with what kind of item are we talking about. "Household items"
is a pretty broad category to -- to make that statement in
regards to.
Q. Did he ever explain why he thought agents might be likely
to confuse cleaning solvents with bomb-making materials?
A. No, sir. Just that he hoped that it didn't happen or
wouldn't happen.
MR. GOELMAN: Court's indulgence.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Any recross?
MR. WOODS: Just a couple, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, you just advised the prosecutor when you went back in
after that last break you didn't show the letters concerning
the storage locker instructions. You just started asking
questions about the storage locker; is that correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. And Mr. Nichols told you about the one he had in Vegas; is
Scott Crabtree - Recross
that correct?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. In fact, there were two in Vegas, weren't there?
A. He described one in Vegas; but, yes, sir.
Q. And he had two. One was a locker and one was -- one for
his car. Did you understand that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he told you he had one in Council Grove. He said,
"I've got at this -- at this storage shed in Council Grove,"
did he not?
A. Yes, sir. We discussed that storage shed and what effects
he had kept there.
Q. And storage shed can include more than one locker, can't
it?
A. That wouldn't have been my understanding at the time if it
had been separate lockers. I would --
Q. Did you ask him specifically what he meant by "storage
shed"?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Now, you went in (sic) with the prosecutor about what
Ms. Beemer told you during the course of your interview. Did
she advise you that there were two people when the vehicle was
rented on April the 17th, that afternoon at 4:15?
A. On the first interview of her, she believed there was a
second person and was extremely vague about any details about
Scott Crabtree - Recross
that person.
Q. And Mr. Kessinger, did he advise you that there were two
people?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. And Mr. Elliott, did he advise you that there were two
people?
A. No, sir. He said there was one person.
Q. And in the following day, told you that there were two,
didn't he?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols fit that description that you had from
those three individuals?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you told the prosecutor you had no reason to believe
when you went to interview Mr. Nichols that he was involved.
He was being interviewed merely as a witness; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But you've never been in a situation where the FBI sent out
an S.O.G. and a S.W.A.T. team to, quote, "interview a witness"?
A. No, sir.
MR. WOODS: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent Crabtree, Mr. Woods asked you some questions about
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
the Council Grove storage locker and what Mr. Nichols told you
about it.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Again, what was your question that you asked Mr. Nichols
when you came in after your last break at 10:50?
A. I asked him to describe any storage lockers or facilities
under his care, custody, or control.
Q. And did you limit that question in any way as far as time
goes? Did you say, "I only want the storage lockers that you
have now"?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you have any reason to know whether or not Mr. Nichols
understood you to be asking only about storage lockers that he
had --
THE COURT: Improper question.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. What was Mr. Nichols' response?
A. He described three different lockers, two of which by his
own statement had been closed out and he no longer had.
Q. Which of those two lockers had been closed out?
A. The one in Las Vegas and the one in Council Grove.
Q. What information did he tell you about the one he already
closed out in Council Grove?
A. We discussed it being household effects and details as to
the fact that things in -- you know, his belongings had been in
Scott Crabtree - Redirect
there that were now in his house.
Q. Did he tell you an approximate time that he had closed out
that storage shed?
A. I believe March, sir.
Q. And did he at any point indicate that he still had another
shed in the very same business?
A. No, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further.
MR. WOODS: Just one question, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Crabtree, you're aware, are you not, that Mr. Nichols
moved into his house in Herington in March of '95?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And he closed out his Council Grove locker; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. WOODS: All right. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Is he going to be back?
MR. WOODS: We would --
MR. GOELMAN: Not for us, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: We would ask he be on call. He's free to
go but be on call.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, you can return to your
office, but be available in case you're called back.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And of course, consider that you're still
a witness under subpoena. You're excused for now.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: We're going to take the morning recess at
this time, members of the jury. I just -- you know, I'm going
to instruct you about the law in detail at the end of the case,
as I already explained. But it occurs to me that you might be
a little confused because you -- about the hearsay rule, which
is something that confuses all of us from time to time. But
you heard me sustain objections along the way to statements
made by other than the witness on the stand and statements that
the witness heard other people say, and I sustained those
objections all along; and now with this witness, there have
been quite a few questions by both sides, lawyers for both
sides, about what somebody told him.
And those statements were admitted here, and there
weren't any objections to them because the questioning was
about what the witness knew; that is, what Agent Crabtree knew
at the time that he was talking with Mr. Nichols.
So these statements have been received, therefore, not
for the truth of what was told to him, but simply what he heard
and therefore what was in his mind at the time. Now, that's
not subject to the hearsay rule because these are not admitted
for the truth of the matter stated to him.
I'll explain more about how the jury may consider
statements made by the defendant himself in the final
instructions in the case. They are in yet a different
category.
But I just wanted to -- you know, we're not going to
give you a lecture about the hearsay rule here, but it occurred
to me that you may be somewhat confused about why is it that
sometimes these statements are admitted, statements made by
other declarants than the person on the stand, and sometimes
they are not. So, again, the limited purpose here is for what
Mr. Crabtree knew, you know, whether it's true or not.
Now, please do not discuss anything about the case or
anything connected with it during the time of this recess,
remembering that you've got to wait until you hear it all
including the final instructions that I'll give you about the
law at the end of the trial before you can even, in your own
minds, consider the significance or lack thereof of any of the
evidence. And continue to therefore avoid discussion and
anything outside of our evidence.
You're excused now. 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:22.)
THE COURT: All right. We'll be in recess.
(Recess at 10:23 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:44 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Jury in at 10:44 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor. The United States
would call Deputy U.S. Marshal Daryl Ingermanson.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Daryl Ingermanson affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Daryl Ingermanson,
I-N-G-E-R-M-A-N-S-O-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Sir, we just heard you're a deputy marshal. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Where are you a deputy marshal?
A. In Wichita, Kansas.
Q. How long have you been in Wichita?
A. I've been stationed in Wichita since approximately February
of 1988.
Daryl Ingermanson - Direct
Q. Could you just tell us briefly what your duties and
responsibilities are as a deputy marshal.
A. As deputy marshal, we're responsible for processing any
federal prisoners that come into the federal system that are
arrested. We take care of the witness-protection program,
federal warrants. We execute federal warrants and produce
prisoners in court and transport.
Q. Let's focus, if we could, on how you process someone who
comes into federal custody. What do you when you receive
someone into federal custody?
A. When a person is received into federal custody, the
individual is brought into our cell block, and then they're
processed. They're taken -- it's a personal history, what we
call a personal history. It's often performed at the U.S.
Marshal's Service. Their fingerprints and photo is taken.
Q. The personal history, is that something that you use with
every federal prisoner?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, were you assigned in Wichita back in April of 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were you at work on April 22, 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did there come a time when Mr. Nichols was brought to you
as a federal prisoner?
A. Yes.
Daryl Ingermanson - Direct
Q. Did you take personal history information from Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did he cooperate with you and answer all of your questions?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Do you recall asking him, or is there a section on your
form where you asked him about the use of other names?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that section entitled on your marshal's form?
A. The form states "aliases" and then gives different blanks
to fill in any other aliases that they have ever used.
Q. When you spoke with Mr. Nichols on April 22, did you ask
him about aliases, or did you use some other phraseology?
A. When I asked Mr. Nichols -- I usually ask all people when
I'm processing them if they've ever used "any other name"
rather than use the word "alias."
Q. Did Mr. Nichols give you other names that he had used?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Do you recall what names he gave you?
A. Can I refer to the processing sheet?
Q. Sure. If I showed you your processing sheet, would that
refresh your recollection?
A. Yes, it would.
Q. Take a look at your screen.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you see that?
Daryl Ingermanson - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Did you write down the names that Mr. Nichols gave you that
day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What names did he give you?
A. He give me the name of "Joe Rivers" and "Ted Parker."
Q. And were those the only two names that he gave you?
A. Yes. Other than his own name.
Q. He never made any reference to the name "Havens"?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he ever mention the name "Bridges"?
A. No, he did not.
MS. WILKINSON: We have no other questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, sir.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers that was
appointed by the district judge in Oklahoma City to help Terry
Nichols in this case.
You and I have never met. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Daryl Ingermanson - Cross
Q. Now, Mr. Nichols was brought to you as a material witness.
Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. How many material witnesses have you processed in Wichita?
A. In Wichita, I've not processed any.
Q. How long have you been in Wichita?
A. I've been in Wichita since 1988.
Q. This was the first and only one that you have seen in
Wichita?
A. In Wichita, yes.
Q. Material witness warrant?
And on your form -- have you reviewed that form before
you came in this morning?
A. Not this morning.
Q. When did you last review it?
A. I looked at it last week.
Q. Under a topic called "locales" you have "remarks" -- is
that correct -- on your form that you fill out as you're
booking the person in?
A. Yes. There is --
Q. And what does "restraints" mean?
A. I wrote that down. Just an indication that Mr. Nichols had
been brought into the -- in restraints.
Q. What restraints was he in?
A. He was in a waist chain and handcuffs.
Daryl Ingermanson - Cross
Q. As a material witness?
A. Yes.
Q. He told you about his army background. Is that correct?
A. Yes, I believe he indicated that he had.
Q. And you recall what years he was in?
A. No, I do not recall. I'd have to refer back to my book --
or personal history.
MR. WOODS: Let me see if I can find an extra copy.
MS. WILKINSON: Here, Mr. Woods.
THE COURT: We have one here, I think. The Government
has one you can use.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor. I have an extra
copy.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. If you would look at that, Deputy Marshal, and see if that
refreshes your memory. Is that the form that you filled out
for Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, it appears to be the same.
Q. All right. Now, can you refresh your memory as to what he
told you about his Army service?
A. He stated here branch of service was the Army. He stated
that his dates that he was in the military was 5 of '88 to 5 of
'89. He indicated that he had a type of discharge -- he
indicated it was honorable. Rank at discharge he told me was
Daryl Ingermanson - Cross
an E3.
In "remarks," he stated that he was released out of
the Army for family hardship and custody of son.
Q. All right. And did he list his relatives for you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And what relatives were you asking about?
A. Father, mother, any -- any other relatives such as sisters,
brothers, wives. Any relatives --
Q. And he listed all those for you, did he not?
A. Yes. He listed his father and mother, brother.
Q. Who did he describe as his father?
A. He said his father was Robert Nichols.
Q. And where was his address?
A. 7776 Brown City, Imlay City, Michigan.
Q. And his mother?
A. His mother was -- he stated was Joyce Wilt, 1400 Grossbeck,
Lapeer, Michigan.
Q. And going -- your next page: That is the addendum that you
filled out going through his relatives?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did he list as a brother?
A. He listed -- this is kind of cut off here. It's, I
believe, Leslie Allen Nichols. It's -- the sheet here is cut
off, or the print on the sheet.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we have no objection to
Daryl Ingermanson - Cross
admitting Government's Exhibit 1922. It's clear that the
witness is reading from it, which I don't think is appropriate.
MR. WOODS: We would offer it into evidence.
THE COURT: And it's 1922?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, sir, it is.
THE COURT: 1922 is received.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. He listed one brother, Leslie Alan Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. What address did he list?
A. He just said Barnes Lake, Michigan.
Q. And did he list another brother?
A. Yes. James Douglas Nichols.
Q. What was his address?
A. 3616 North Van Dyke in Decker, Michigan.
Q. Did he list a sister?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was her name and address?
A. Suzanne Marie McDonnell of Holly, Michigan.
Q. And brother-in-law?
A. Brother-in-law was Joe McDonnell, also of Holly, Michigan.
Q. Did he list a son?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the name and address of the son?
A. It's a Joshua Isaac Nichols. Address is 7160 Nordic
Daryl Ingermanson - Cross
Lights, Las Vegas, Nevada.
Q. And date of birth?
A. Date of birth is 8-11 of '82.
Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear.
A. 8-11 of '82.
Q. Did he list that as a stepson, or a son?
A. He just told me "son."
Q. Did he list a daughter?
A. Yes.
Q. What was her name?
A. Nicole Lynn Nichols.
Q. Address?
A. 109 South 2nd Street in Herington, Kansas.
Q. And what was her date of birth?
A. Her date of birth is 8-1 of '93.
Q. Did he list an ex-wife?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And what was her name and address?
A. Her name is Lana Padilla. And address is 7160 Nordic
Lights, Las Vegas, Nevada.
Q. Did he list his current wife?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And what was her name and address?
A. Her name is Marife Torres Nichols. Address was 109 South
2nd, Herington, Kansas.
Daryl Ingermanson - Cross
Q. And can you read that date of birth on the bottom?
A. Date of birth would be 6-11 of '71.
Q. All right. This is all information that you take down
regarding the prisoner that's coming into your custody. Is
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did Mr. Nichols list what his occupation was?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And what was it?
A. He advised that he was self-employed, buying and selling
military surplus.
Q. All right. Did he list -- there is a question on your form
where you want to know the description of vehicle. Is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What description of vehicle did Mr. Nichols give you?
A. He said he had a 1984 -- I've written down GMP, but it
was -- clearly must have been a mistake in my writing as a GMC
pickup. It's a Sierra, blue in color. The license plate, he
wasn't sure of the three letter characters that we have on our
tag system; and he gave me a 501 as the three numbers. Kansas
registration, registered in 1996.
Q. Did he advise you that he had just gotten the license plate
and didn't know the number in complete form?
A. I don't recall if that was asked or not.
Daryl Ingermanson - Cross
Q. And you put down on your form as to information concerning
the arrest who the agency is that arrests the individual; is
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And who did you list as the arresting agency?
A. FBI.
Q. And what was the location of the arrest?
A. I wrote down "Herington, Kansas," in there.
Q. All right. And the arrest date?
A. 4-21 of '95.
Q. And what day are you filling out this form? When did you
first receive Mr. Nichols as a prisoner?
A. 4-22.
Q. What time of day was it that you were filling out this
form?
A. The time would have been approximately -- he arrived at the
courthouse at approximately 3:30 in the afternoon, so it would
have been very shortly after that.
Q. Okay. Is that the extent of the conversation that you had
with Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. WOODS: Thank you. No further questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson?
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
Your Honor, now that this is in evidence, I'd like to
show portions to the jury as I ask questions.
THE COURT: You may.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Ingermanson, I focused on a section where you asked
Mr. Nichols about his relatives. Do you see that on your
screen?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. This is his father listed here, Robert Nichols; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Over here in the birth date, you don't list a birth date.
Why is that?
A. It would have been because Mr. Nichols was not -- did not
give me a date of birth.
Q. Okay. Did he give you the age of his father there?
A. Yes. I usually -- if they don't have a date of birth, I
usually ask approximately what age the individuals are, and
Mr. Nichols said between 65 and 67 years old.
Q. And below you have his mother's name, and also you have no
birth date. Why is that?
A. That is correct. It would be for the same reason that he
was -- was not sure of what the -- their date of birth was.
Daryl Ingermanson - Redirect
Q. Okay. And up at the top of where it says "father's name
and phone number," there is a question mark. Why did you write
that question mark?
A. It would have been the fact -- I usually -- if they're
unsure of information they're giving me, I usually place a
question mark on the form to -- where we know that it's --
they've indicated to us that they're unsure of what the number
is.
Q. Okay. Now, let's look at the section that you said was
called "aliases." Is this the form -- the names that you wrote
down that Mr. Nichols gave you?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. You have space there, I take it, for additional names; is
that right?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Now, finally, you also asked about family members and you
asked about associates. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And here is a section -- did Mr. Nichols give you this name
for an associate, Kevin Nicholas?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. When you asked him about associates, did Mr. Nichols ever
mention the name Timothy McVeigh?
A. No, not to my recollection. Never did.
Q. And I just have one final question. If you could take a
Daryl Ingermanson - Redirect
look at the page where you wrote out the names of Mr. Nichols'
family members. Do you see that? You said you wrote an
additional page.
A. Yes.
Q. And at the bottom there, you listed Mrs. Marife Nichols.
Is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. That date of birth: Can you read to the jury what it says?
Let me see if I can focus on it one second.
A. The date of birth that I have written down here is 6-11 of
'71.
Q. Do you know whether or not that is the correct birth date
for Mrs. Marife Nichols?
A. I have no idea.
Q. You just wrote down what he told you?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is this witness to be excused, then?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, he is, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes. We'll call Richard Hagerman.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Richard Hagerman affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Richard Hagerman, H-A-G-E-R-M-A-N.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Hagerman, good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you reside?
A. Herington, Kansas.
Q. How long have you lived there?
A. About 5 1/2 years, 6 years, somewhere in there.
Q. Are you married?
A. No. I have a fianc‚e that I live with, but I'm not
married.
Q. Are you currently employed?
A. Yes. I work for Penny Packer Construction out of
Herington.
Q. And at any point in your career, Mr. Hagerman, have you
Richard Hagerman - Direct
worked for the Dickinson County sheriff's office?
A. I resigned the 27th of October.
Q. This past year?
A. This past year, of this year.
Q. How many total years did you work for Dickinson County?
A. 7 years and 10 days.
Q. Were you working then in April of 1995 for Dickinson
County?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What was your position?
A. Corrections officer.
Q. And generally speaking, what kind of duties did you carry
out?
A. Book in and book out of prisoners and the health and
welfare of the prisoners.
Q. Do you remember what shift you were working on Saturday,
April 22, 1995?
A. 11 to 7. 11 p.m. to 7 a.m.
Q. Let me direct your attention now, Mr. Hagerman, to the
early morning hours of that day, Saturday, April 22. Were you
present when the FBI brought into the Dickinson County facility
Mr. Terry Lynn Nichols?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did you personally participate in the processing of
Mr. Nichols?
Richard Hagerman - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. That is, the intake?
A. That is the intake.
Q. Would you describe to the jury what it is that you did in
the course of processing Mr. Nichols that day?
A. I typed up what we call the IMF or the booking sheet, and I
took Mr. Nichols' property, placed it in a property envelope,
put my initials on that. And my understanding was that was to
go to the marshals. I therefore sealed that. I handed that to
my supervisor, which in return supposedly handed that off to
the marshals.
Q. All right.
A. And that was the last I've seen of the envelope.
Q. You were present there when the personal property then on
the person of Mr. Nichols was turned over to you and other
jailers?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you recall what items Mr. Nichols had on his person when
you took them into your possession?
A. There was a wallet, a knife, a watch, and a few other items
I'm not sure of.
Q. Were those immediately handled by you and placed into a
property envelope?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Take a look on the stand, Mr. Hagerman, for a single
Richard Hagerman - Direct
exhibit. It should be a folder; and inside do you recognize
Government's Exhibit 1852A?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen that before?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. That is what they call "personal property envelope."
Normally what we do is we take the property from the individual
and then we put it in a filing cabinet; but my understanding
was when we got the word that Mr. Nichols was coming to the
sheriff's department, the word was we were to take his
property, seal it, and immediately hand it over to the United
States Marshal's Service.
Q. You understood that he was in federal custody and not
Dickinson County?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. Now, let's talk a little bit more about the
envelope itself. Is Government's Exhibit 1852A the envelope in
which you placed the personal possessions taken from
Mr. Nichols Saturday morning?
A. Okay. At the name --
Q. That is the envelope?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Now, let me direct your attention to the writing that's on
the envelope. Do you recognize any of the handwriting on the
Richard Hagerman - Direct
face of Government's Exhibit 1852A?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. As whose?
A. As Mr. Terry Nichols'.
Q. And do you see your handwriting as well?
A. My handwriting is there, yes, sir.
Q. What kind of entries did you make on the face of that
envelope as you put the items of property into it?
A. I put the name, "Nichols," the date that he was arrested,
the property description, "money." And down there where it
says "the signature of inmate," I put down that he refused.
Q. Why do you write the word "refused" on the bottom where the
prisoner is to sign?
A. Mr. Nichols would not say anything when he was booked into
the jail, or he would not sign any documents.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit
Government's Exhibit 1852A.
MR. WOODS: May I examine the document, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sure.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
May I take the witness on short voir dire, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Hagerman, did you tell the jury that there is writing
Richard Hagerman - Voir Dire
on there of Mr. Nichols'?
A. No, sir. The writing on there is the name Mr. Nichols that
I put on there. That's his property when he came in our
facility. At nowhere is there -- he did not sign that, or
nowhere is his writing on this document.
Q. What did you say: You recognize Terry Nichols, then,
rather than recognize his writing?
A. No, what I'm saying is I wrote this stuff on there.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. And I stated what was on the envelope as being
Mr. Nichols'.
MR. WOODS: All right. I understand.
No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's 1852A?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Hagerman, take a look at the front of the envelope. Do
you see where you wrote down the word "wallet"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall taking a wallet from Mr. Nichols and placing
it in that envelope?
A. Correct.
Q. On Saturday morning?
Richard Hagerman - Direct
A. Correct.
Q. All right. After you placed the items inside that
envelope, what did you do with the envelope itself and
specifically on the back of it?
A. After I -- after I took Mr. Nichols' property and placed it
in his envelope, there is a metal tab. I closed the tab, I
wrote my initials on there, I licked the envelope down there
and placed the metal tab down there, placed tape on that to
seal it, handed it to my supervisor, which was -- which in
return was supposed to hand it over to the United States
Marshal's Service.
Q. I understand. Do you see on the reverse side of that
envelope what you recognize to be your initials?
A. Those are my initials, yes.
MR. MACKEY: Mr. Hagerman, thanks.
Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions, Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Hagerman, my name is Ron Woods. I'm one of the lawyers
that was appointed to represent Terry Nichols in this case.
You and I have never met or talked. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Richard Hagerman - Cross
Q. Did you fill out a booking sheet when Mr. Nichols was
brought in to you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you have that with you?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Do you know where that is?
A. The original booking sheet?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, I have no clue where that's at. I would assume it
would still be at the sheriff's department.
Q. The FBI didn't get that from you?
A. Not that I'm aware of, sir.
Q. What all information do you put on your booking sheet when
you receive a prisoner?
A. Normally, all of our information we receive is from what
the prisoner gives us.
Q. What do you ask him?
A. We ask him his name, his address, date of birth, height and
weight, next of kin, health questions, and that sort of stuff.
Q. And did you fill one out with Mr. Nichols?
A. We attempted to fill one out on Mr. Nichols, yes, sir.
Q. And what happened?
A. When we got there, what we do is we -- what we call a "soft
copy." You just write out the stuff, and then you take what
you call -- a hard copy is you type that up. At no time would
Richard Hagerman - Cross
Mr. Nichols answer any of our questions.
Q. So you asked questions and he didn't answer you.
A. That is correct.
Q. Is that your position?
A. We were told to ask the questions three times and if we
didn't get an answer, move on to the next question.
Q. What time of morning is this when Mr. Nichols is brought to
your custody?
A. Sometime after midnight.
Q. Can you be a little more specific?
A. Not without looking at my book-in sheet.
Q. Do you have that with you?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. You worked from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. Is that correct?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. So it would have been the evening of April 21 and the early
morning hours of April 22?
A. Correct, sir.
Q. Do you recall whether or not it was near the end of your
shift?
A. No, it was in the beginning of our shift.
Q. And how was Mr. Nichols dressed?
A. I don't recall how he was dressed.
Q. Who was with Mr. Nichols?
A. The FBI and the United States Marshal's Service.
Richard Hagerman - Cross
Q. Okay.
A. Along with our -- along with our Dickinson County Sheriff's
Department personnel.
Q. How many people from the FBI were there with Mr. Nichols?
A. I do not know, sir.
Q. More than two?
A. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Q. And how many people were there from the Marshal's Service?
A. To my knowledge, there was only two from the Marshal's
Service.
Q. Now, were they based in Abilene?
A. No, sir. They were the two marshals that sat there. They
were assigned to sit with Mr. Nichols and watch him.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned Dickinson County. What city are
we in here?
A. Abilene, Kansas.
Q. All right. And the jail is there in Abilene, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you had two marshals, you say, that were assigned to sit
with him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know where they came from?
A. No, sir, I don't know where they were from.
Q. And how many FBI agents were there?
A. I do not know how many were FBI agents, sir.
Richard Hagerman - Cross
Q. And how many people from your sheriff's office were there?
A. Just about all of them.
Q. How many is that?
A. There are 15 people assigned to the sheriff's department,
and I'm not sure how many reserve officers there; and there was
a few reserve officers there that night, also.
Q. Just everybody crowded around looking at Mr. Nichols?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. When you say they were all there, what were they doing?
A. I don't know what they were all doing there. They
weren't -- I don't mean they were all inside the jail. I'm
just saying in what we call our booking office and our jail
area.
Q. They were all in the booking office and jail area?
A. No, sir.
Q. How many people from law enforcement were in the booking
area/jail area?
A. The only ones from law enforcement that was in our jail
area was three of us.
Q. And that's who?
A. I'm sorry. There was five of us.
Q. Okay. That's you?
A. That's myself, my partner, my supervisor, the sheriff, and
Richard Hagerman - Cross
I do believe it was one reserve member.
Q. So there were five from the sheriff's office, two from the
marshal's office?
A. No, sir. The two from the marshal's office stood outside
the door.
Q. And where is the door in relation to where you're asking
questions of Mr. Nichols?
A. I'm here and the door is right here. It's --
Q. Right by --
A. It's just one small room, yes, sir.
Q. So they're standing at the door. Why were the FBI agents
standing?
A. I do not know if the FBI was actually there, or if they had
left.
Q. Were they there initially?
A. They were there initially, yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Nichols was dressed how?
A. I do not recall, sir, how he was dressed.
Q. What kind of restraints did he have on?
A. I don't know if he had restraints on at that time.
Q. Can you recall?
A. I was in the office. I don't know. I was in the office
getting ready to do this paperwork. I don't know.
Q. All right. And at a point in time, a wallet was handed to
you?
Richard Hagerman - Cross
A. He was brought into the office. They made him -- my
supervisor and my partner made him empty his pockets, empty his
pockets on the table; and I retrieved that property and placed
it in this envelope.
Q. Who had the wallet?
A. I believe Mr. Nichols had his wallet.
Q. How did he get the wallet if you don't know if he was
restrained?
A. When he came in the office, he was not restrained. I don't
know if he was restrained when he come -- into the jail area.
Q. Any restraints that were on him had been taken off before
he was placed in front of you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your purpose is to fill out the booking information?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And to take the property?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who handed you the wallet?
A. My supervisor and my partner made him empty his pockets on
the table, and then my partner handed me the property and I put
it in the envelope.
Q. Now, are you saying that Mr. Nichols was one who handed you
the wallet?
A. No, sir, I am not saying that. I am saying they had
Mr. Nichols empty his pockets out, place it on the table. My
Richard Hagerman - Cross
partner gave me the property. I placed it in the envelope.
Q. All right. And you had instructions to give it to your
partner, who was going to give it to the Marshal's Service?
A. Sir, I was instructed when he first came in there that the
property would be taken, sealed up, and handed to the United
States Marshal's Service.
Q. And did you see that?
A. When I took the property, sealed it up, I handed it to my
supervisor. There was no U.S. marshals in the room.
In return, my supervisor was going to give that to the
United States Marshal's Service.
Q. And where was it the last time you saw it, the envelope
with the wallet in it?
A. The last time I saw it with the wallet in there is when I
handed it to my supervisor.
Q. Did you see it handed to the marshal?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. What was the hour the last time you saw it?
A. I do not know, sir, the hour.
Q. After this booking procedure is completed, what did you
then do with Mr. Nichols, if anything?
A. After we dressed Mr. Nichols up and we were done with our
paperwork, we put Mr. Nichols in what we call the "weight
room." We took all the weights out, and that was the cell that
we put him in; and two of the United States marshals sat down
Richard Hagerman - Cross
with him, and they observed him all night in the room.
Q. The weight room being W-E-I-G-H-T, rather than W-A-I-T?
A. Correct, sir.
Q. You used one of the cells as a gymnasium or something?
A. We tried to keep Mr. Nichols separated from the rest of the
inmates in our facility; and the only secure place that we had
was our weight room, so we took all the weights out and put
Mr. Nichols in there.
Q. Was there a bed to lay on?
A. I don't recall if at that time -- if we had a bed in there
or not.
Q. All right. What time was it that you put him in there?
A. Sir, I have no idea what time it was we put him in there.
Q. Sometime during your shift before 7 -- between 11 that
night and 7 the next morning?
A. It had to be before 2:00, sir.
Q. All right. And this is a room that the marshals can look
into to observe Mr. Nichols; is that what you're telling the
jury?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you go off duty then at 7 a.m. the -- that morning?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And where was Mr. Nichols, to your recollection?
A. Mr. Nichols was still in what we call the "weight room"
when I left at 7:00.
Richard Hagerman - Cross
Q. And you don't know if there was anything in there for him
to rest on?
A. I don't -- I don't recall if there was a bunk in there. I
don't know if we gave him a chair. I don't know if we gave him
a mattress. I can't recall that, what we actually give him.
Q. And do you know what time Mr. Nichols was then removed from
the Dickinson County Jail there in Abilene?
A. I do not, sir.
Q. Did you work the next day, come on 11 p.m. that night?
A. I don't know if I -- if I came back in there or if I was
off, sir.
Q. Did you see Mr. Nichols after that day when he was placed
in the weight room?
A. No, sir, I never seen him again.
MR. WOODS: All right. Thank you.
No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Hagerman, do you recall having seen any reports
reflecting entries of records that Mr. Nichols was sleeping
during a portion of the time that he was at Dickinson County?
A. Yes. We kept a 15-minute check on him, what we call.
Q. You've seen records that show that some period of time, he
was sleeping?
Richard Hagerman - Redirect
A. I have not seen that since we filled that out.
Q. When you handed the envelope to your supervisor on that
Saturday morning, was the wallet that Mr. Nichols had taken off
of his person inside and sealed?
A. Yes, it was, sir.
MR. MACKEY: I have nothing else, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: Just one question.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WOODS: One area.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, the prosecutor mentioned to you a log that was kept by
your department.
A. Yes. Me and my partner was required to keep a log and do
15-minute checks.
Q. Now, was a marshal there, the two marshals outside the room
watching him also?
A. Yes, sir, there was.
Q. Now, what kind of log were you keeping?
A. It's what we call a jail report. I don't have one to show
you. It's a jail report, and it's also what we call a "suicide
watch" or "special watches" that we put on people. And if they
are to be watched, we put 15-minute checks on them.
We are also instructed that with Mr. Nichols' being in
there along with the two marshals: Do not interfere with the
Richard Hagerman - Recross
two marshals; let them do their thing. So basically, we
just -- we check on him every now and then.
Q. "Let the marshals do their thing": Were they in the room
with Mr. Nichols?
A. There is no room, sir. It's just an open area. You have a
cell right here, and the two marshals had chairs that they sat
right there outside the bars.
Q. Outside the bars?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was "doing their thing"?
A. I'm sorry, sir?
Q. You were instructed to let the marshals do their thing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was "their thing"?
A. They just sat there and watched him.
Q. Did they keep a log, also, to your knowledge?
A. I do not know if they had a log or not, sir.
Q. But you kept a log every 15 minutes to see if Mr. Nichols
was what?
A. When we do our 15-minute checks, it's supposed to be for a
suicide watch. I don't recall if that we did them 15 minutes,
or if we did them by the hour. One of the two.
Q. What did you observe Mr. Nichols do?
A. I couldn't tell you without looking at the documents, sir.
MR. WOODS: Thank you. No further questions, your
Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Are you excusing this witness, then?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Call Special Agent Dan Jablonski.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Daniel Jablonski affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Daniel L. Jablonski,
J-A-B-L-O-N-S-K-I.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Jablonski, for whom do you work?
A. I'm a special agent with the FBI.
Q. And how long have you worked for the FBI?
Daniel Jablonski - Direct
A. I've worked for the FBI for 26 years.
Q. Where are you currently assigned?
A. Wichita, Kansas.
Q. And how long in that city?
A. I've been there since June of 1985.
Q. Agent Jablonski, did you assist other FBI agents in the
course of an investigation of the bombing in Oklahoma City?
A. I did.
Q. For purposes of your testimony today, Agent Jablonski, I
want to direct your attention to Saturday evening, April 22,
1995. And on that date and time, did you have occasion to take
into your possession ce