The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Tuesday, November 25, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 90)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:40 a.m., on the 25th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, JANE TIGAR, and REID
NEUREITER, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308,
Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:40 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please. Good morning.
We're a little early this morning because I want to
make the rulings on the videotape that was the subject of the
motion and also briefed in discussion at sidebar yesterday.
With the -- with respect to the concern about the
introduction of counsel, I thought that we could -- I think the
jury has to know who's questioning, and my suggestion is that I
simply advise them that under the procedure followed by
agreement, counsel for Mr. Nichols went first in the
questioning, and I believe Mr. Neureiter was introduced in the
opening statement that you made, Mr. Tigar.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: So I can simply refer to him and remind
them that he was introduced in the opening statement.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: So that seems to me to be the solution to
that concern.
With respect to the substantive matters, first, the
agreement was, I believe, that the photograph would be cropped.
D1625.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. 1625 is in evidence and
will be shown in its entirety through another witness. Our
thought is that when that photograph comes on, we stop the tape
as we do and show the portion of the photograph on the device
with the portion of it obscured.
THE COURT: All right. Then on the question at page
32, question and answer, lines 5 to 13, the objection there
is -- defense objection sustained.
So that should be edited.
And with respect to the material on page 40, I'm
sustaining the objection on page 40, line 19, through 41, line
25, but denying it -- excuse me. The other way around. I'm
overruling the objection on page 40, line 19, through 41, line
25, but sustaining it on page 42, line 1, through page 45, line
5.
I'll repeat that to make sure it's -- you got it
right. Overruled on page 40, line 19, through page 41, line
25. But sustaining on page 42, line 1, through 45, line 5.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. I'm turning pages
slowly.
THE COURT: That's fine. I want to make sure you
understand.
MR. TIGAR: Yes. Yes, your Honor. I have that.
THE COURT: All right. That -- that picks up then,
sort of, at an -- yeah.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, if the -- if you have 45, line
5, there --
THE COURT: I have it here.
MR. TIGAR: -- lines (sic) 45, 6 through 19, I had
thought there was an objection to that. Did I --
THE COURT: Well, there isn't -- it isn't shown as
one, but --
MR. MACKEY: We agree. We withdraw that.
THE COURT: Yeah. That's what I assumed, that
something had happened to that because I'm ready to sustain
that objection.
MR. MACKEY: We anticipated that.
THE COURT: All right. And then as I understand it,
the other objections have been resolved by agreement. Now, are
you going to edit out --
MR. MACKEY: Yes.
THE COURT: -- the objections that have been -- that
have been agreed, I assume?
MR. MACKEY: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire of Government counsel
through the Court when they think to present it so that
Mr. Neureiter will be present to show the exhibits --
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. TIGAR: -- he sponsored.
MR. MACKEY: I would expect what we can get
accomplished in the course of the day is the editing and the
review by defense counsel to be sure that what we produce is in
accord with both our agreement and the Court's rulings, and
we'll plan on playing it probably tomorrow.
THE COURT: Tomorrow. So there's plenty of time to
get it edited.
MR. TIGAR: Counsel will keep in touch, then, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Yeah. I noticed that he was
on the list for today, but --
MR. NEUREITER: Your Honor, if I may be excused. My
presence here was for this purpose.
THE COURT: Certainly.
MR. NEUREITER: Thank you.
THE COURT: All right.
Well, with that, it's now 8:45. I assume we're ready
to start with our next witness. Okay.
(Jury in at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning. We're
ready to resume and call for the next witness.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'll start the morning with
Mr. Robert Dunlap.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dunlap.
(Robert Dunlap affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Robert Dunlap, II, D-U-N-L-A-P.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mearns.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Dunlap.
A. Hi.
Q. Where do you live?
A. Wichita, Kansas.
Q. And how long have you lived in Wichita?
A. My whole life.
Q. And what kind of education have you had?
A. I've got a bachelor of science in electrical engineering.
Robert Dunlap - Direct
Q. Where did you get your college degree?
A. Wichita State University.
Q. And when did you graduate?
A. 1986.
Q. Where do you work now?
A. Equity Standard Numismatics of Kansas.
Q. And what kind of a store or business is that?
A. We buy and sell coins, currency, stamps, things of that
nature.
Q. What's your position or job at Equity Standard?
A. I'm the owner.
Q. Do you have any other employees besides yourself?
A. No.
Q. How long have you been in the coin business?
A. Over 20 years.
Q. How long have you had that particular business?
A. Since October of 1989.
Q. Where is your store located? Where is Equity Standard
located?
A. It's at 8237 East Kellogg in Wichita, Kansas.
Q. Where is that, generally speaking, in Wichita?
A. On the east side of town.
Q. And how long has it been at that location?
A. Since September of 1990.
Q. Tell us a little bit more about what you do in your
Robert Dunlap - Direct
business on a day-to-day basis.
A. We buy and sell coins. We appraise coins. We buy and sell
currency, stamps.
Q. Do you buy and sell actual precious metals, as well?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of precious metals do you buy?
A. We buy gold, silver, platinum.
Q. And do you sell that, too?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. From what sources do you buy coins?
A. From the public, wholesalers, other dealers.
Q. And to whom do you sell your coins?
A. To the same venue. The public, dealers, other wholesalers.
Q. When you sell coins to individual customers, what do you
accept for payment?
A. We accept personal checks up to $250 with proper ID, cash,
and cashier checks.
Q. And when you purchase coins from people who walk into your
store from the general public, how do you pay them for your
purchases?
A. We pay them by check or cash.
Q. Do you prepare a receipt, an individual receipt for every
transaction that you engage in with an individual customer?
A. No.
Q. When do you prepare a receipt?
Robert Dunlap - Direct
A. When requested by the customer.
Q. And what kind of receipts do you prepare when a customer
requests a receipt?
A. We have Ready Forms. They are a duplicate, carbonless
form.
Q. And what kind of information is -- is put down on that form
for a transaction?
A. What was purchased and payment method, check number or by
cash.
Q. Do you put the person's name, as well?
A. If they want.
Q. And you said those were duplicate, carbonless forms?
A. Yes.
Q. How many different forms are generated in a transaction
like that?
A. Two.
Q. And what do you do with those two different copies?
A. We generally give the customer the white copy, and we
retain the yellow copy.
Q. Is that yellow copy retained for your own record-keeping
purposes?
A. Yes.
Q. When a customer doesn't request a receipt, do you -- do you
create any kind of a -- a record for your own internal
record-keeping purposes?
Robert Dunlap - Direct
A. We'll generally retain that on a piece of paper.
Q. What do you do with that information?
A. We'll generally go ahead and transfer that to a receipt at
a later point.
Q. What do you mean by put it on a receipt at a later time?
A. Basically, one of the formalized receipts a customer
requested, we'll transfer once the transaction is not -- the
customer is not requesting a receipt to that receipt.
Q. And so there can be more than one transaction listed on a
particular receipt?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a security camera, any kind of a security
camera in your store?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it a video camera or still camera?
A. Video camera.
Q. How long have you had that video security camera?
A. Since late 1993.
Q. What I want you to do now, Mr. Dunlap, if you would --
there's a large folder on the witness stand in front of you.
If you would look in that folder and find Government Exhibit
235. Do you have that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes. This is a videotape of my premises showing events
Robert Dunlap - Direct
that occurred between 9-13 of '94 and 9-23 of 1994.
Q. How do you recognize that?
A. It has my handwriting on it.
Q. You wrote those dates?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And is that the original videotape for those dates,
September 13 to September 23, 1994?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And was that videotape then created by your security camera
in the ordinary course of your business?
A. Yes, it was.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer Government
Exhibit 235.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Now, Mr. Dunlap, if you would -- well, let me ask you a
question before you move that away. If we were to put that
videotape into a VCR and try to watch it, would we be able to
see what was on that videotape?
A. It would be very difficult. It's a time-lapse version. It
would be very choppy and go by very quickly.
Q. Look in your folder, if you would, for Government Exhibit
236. Do you recognize that, Mr. Dunlap?
A. Yes. This is a real-time version of the -- from the
Robert Dunlap - Direct
time-lapse version.
Q. And is that a real-time version of one single date from the
original videotape, that date being September 14, 1994?
A. Yes it is.
Q. And is the only difference is that's a videotape that you
could actually watch on a VCR?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer Government
Exhibit 236.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 236 received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Now, Mr. Dunlap, if you would look into your folder for
Government's Exhibit 235A and 235B and 235C. Do you have
those?
A. Yes.
Q. What are those?
A. These are pictures of my shop from 9-14 of 1994.
Q. And are those still photographs derived from the original
videotape that you just testified about a moment ago?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. For September 14, 1994?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 235A, B, and
C.
Robert Dunlap - Direct
MR. WOODS: May I examine them, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. Sure.
MR. WOODS: Thank you. No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 235A, B, and C are received.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, there's a stipulation that
the individual depicted in that photograph is Mr. Timothy
McVeigh.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. That is our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right. The jury will accept that
agreement.
MR. MEARNS: At this time, I'd like to, with the
Court's permission, publish 235A.
THE COURT: Please. You may proceed.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. And, Mr. Dunlap, if you could, beginning in the upper
left-hand corner, just orient us to what we see in that
photograph. Tell us what we see.
A. In the upper left-hand corner is the date 9-14-94 and the
time, which is 12:00, 4 minutes after and 15 seconds.
Q. And what do we see then generally in the -- in the
photograph?
A. You see the premise itself. I'm setting (sic) on a chair.
Q. And you have a -- excuse me. If I can interrupt you. You
have a pen that's attached to a wire up there, an electric pen.
Robert Dunlap - Direct
If you could just circle where you are, indicate with an X
where you are in the photograph.
Okay. And could you indicate where Mr. McVeigh is in
that photograph.
Now, is the area where Mr. McVeigh is standing -- is
that the general customer area of your store?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And if you could clear those marks and indicate where the
front door of your store is.
And if you had -- if we were to go out that door,
where would we go?
A. You'd go out on the sidewalk in front of the shopping
center.
Q. What is -- what do we see in the photograph to -- on the --
to Mr. McVeigh's right, or to the left of Mr. McVeigh and to
the -- and to the right? On either side of those -- I guess
they are counters there?
A. There's a chair.
Q. Well, what -- are those glass cases there?
A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Those are showcases.
Q. And what is the -- contained in those?
A. Coins.
MR. MEARNS: And if we could have 235B, please.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. And if you could clear your pen and just indicate for the
Robert Dunlap - Direct
record the date and time of this photograph.
A. It's 9-14 of '94 at 12:05:23.
Q. And if we could have 235C, please.
And if you could indicate the date and time on that,
please.
A. This is 9-14 of '94. And this is 12:07:57.
MR. MEARNS: May I just have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. And if we could just zoom in on the customer there.
These were all -- these were all photographs taken
during the same transaction with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. During this transaction, did you sell anything to
Mr. McVeigh or buy anything from him?
A. I purchased coins from him.
Q. How many coins did you purchase from him?
A. Six.
Q. And what kind of coins did you purchase?
A. 1-ounce gold Maple Leafs.
Q. And how much did you pay for those coins?
A. $2330.
Q. If you would look in your folder there, Mr. Dunlap, for
Government Exhibit 237 and Government Exhibit 1722.
Do you have those documents in front of you?
Robert Dunlap - Direct
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Beginning first with 237, what is that?
A. This is a check drawn on my business for $2330 on September
the 14th, 1994, payable to Marife Nichols.
Q. Was that the check that you gave to Mr. McVeigh for the
coins you purchased that day?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And was that check created and maintained in the ordinary
course of your business?
A. Yes, it was.
MR. MEARNS: We would offer Government Exhibit 237.
MR. WOODS: May I examine the back of it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. WOODS: Thank you. No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 237 received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Dunlap, is this your handwriting on the check?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And we see on the check that it's made out to the -- it's
paid to the order of Marife Nichols.
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you make this check payable to Marife Nichols?
A. I was instructed to do so by Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Turning to 1722. What is that?
A. This is a receipt from my business.
Robert Dunlap - Direct
Q. Is that a receipt that relates only to this transaction?
A. No. It relates to multiple transactions.
Q. And is one of the transactions the transaction with
Mr. McVeigh on September 14?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And was this document created and maintained in the
ordinary course of your business?
A. Yes, it was.
MR. MEARNS: We would offer Government Exhibit 1722.
MR. WOODS: I can't read the copy. Your Honor, may I
examine it?
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. WOODS: Thanks. No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1722 is received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. And if we could first display the entire document.
Tell us what we see on this document, Mr. Dunlap.
A. We see multiple transactions that occurred at my business
during the month of September.
Q. Now, we see in the upper right-hand corner that the date
there is September 15, 1994.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the date that this purchase order was created?
A. Yes.
Q. And was this created for the transaction with Mr. McVeigh,
Robert Dunlap - Direct
or a different transaction?
A. For a different transaction.
Q. Is Mr. -- is the transaction with Mr. McVeigh reflected on
this receipt anywhere?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Could you circle where it's reflected on this receipt.
Okay. And if we could focus on that area of the
receipt, please. Okay. If you could erase the light pen. If
you'd press your -- there you go. And circle it again on this
focused version.
Mr. Dunlap, how do you know that this is -- that this
entry on this receipt is the one that pertains to the
transaction with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Because it's the same check number as the one that I wrote
and gave to Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Okay. Could you tell us what that check number is that's
reflected on this entry.
A. Check No. 2423.
Q. And what is the information that's contained to the left
there? There's a number 6 and then there's some writing there.
A. It's six 1-ounce GML, which is an abbreviation for gold
Maple Leafs.
Q. And what kind of a coin is that?
A. It's a 1-ounce Canadian gold coin.
Q. During the course of this transaction, did Mr. McVeigh ask
Robert Dunlap - Direct
you anything about the check that you gave him?
A. Yes. He inquired about where he could go to cash it.
Q. Did you respond to that question?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you tell him?
A. I told him that he needed to go out to Kellogg and proceed
through two stoplights to Armor and take a right and that the
bank was located right next to Target.
Q. Now, I'd like you to look into your folder for Government
Exhibit 1875, which is in evidence.
If you could pull it out of the larger plastic sleeve.
A. It's stapled shut.
Q. Oh, it's stapled shut. How do the coins that is contained
in Government's Exhibit 1875 compare to the coins that you
purchased from Mr. McVeigh on September 14, 1994?
A. The same type.
Q. Could you hold those up to the jury.
And there are two coins contained in there,
Mr. Dunlap?
A. It appears to be.
Q. And you purchased six from Mr. McVeigh that day?
A. That's correct.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Dunlap.
Now, if you would look into your folder for Government
Exhibit 238.
Robert Dunlap - Direct
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes. This is a videotape of events that occurred at my
premise on 10-13-94 through 10-24 of 1994.
Q. And how do you recognize that as the original videotape for
those -- for those dates?
A. It has my handwriting on it.
Q. Was that videotape also created in the normal course of
your business?
A. Yes, it was.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer Government
Exhibit 238.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. 238.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Now, Mr. Dunlap, if you would locate the videotape that's
marked Government Exhibit 239. And what is that?
A. This is a real-time version taken from the time-lapse tape.
Q. Is that for all of those dates or just for one particular
date?
A. One particular date.
Q. And what date is that?
A. 10-19 of 1994.
Q. That's for October 19, 1994?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is that a real-time tape derived from the original
Robert Dunlap - Direct
information on Government Exhibit 238?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 239.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Now, Mr. Dunlap, if you would locate three photographs
marked 238A, 238B, and 238C.
Do you recognize those photographs?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How do you recognize them?
A. These are pictures that reflect my business premise from
10-19 of 1994.
Q. And are those photographs still photographs derived from
the videotapes, 238 and 239?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer 238A, B, and
C.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. MEARNS: And there is a stipulation with respect
to the individual depicted in these three photographs, that
it's the defendant, Terry Nichols.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. That is our stipulation.
THE COURT: All right. Then we accept that agreement.
Robert Dunlap - Direct
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. If you would clear your light pen, Mr. Dunlap.
And if you could begin by telling us the date and time
that we see reflected there in the upper left-hand corner.
A. This is 10-19, 1994, at 10:11:07.
Q. And if you could put a circle around the individual who's
been identified as Mr. Nichols.
Now, we don't see you in this photograph; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Where were you at the time that this picture was taken?
A. I was in the back room, doing opening duties.
Q. What time does your store open every morning?
A. 10 a.m.
Q. And what time did you arrive at the store and open your
store that morning?
A. 10:06 a.m.
Q. And who was the first customer to come in your store that
morning on October 19?
A. Mr. Nichols.
Q. And what time did Mr. Nichols enter the store?
A. 10:07 a.m.
Q. Approximately four minutes before this still photograph was
taken?
A. Correct.
Robert Dunlap - Direct
MR. MEARNS: If we could display 238B.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. And this is a photograph just taken a few seconds later at
10:11 and 8 seconds; is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: And if we could finally have 238C.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. If you could clear your light pen there. And if you could
indicate with an X where you are.
And an X where Mr. Nichols is.
And back behind Mr. Nichols, we see other individuals.
Do you see those?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Could you just put a circle where those other
individuals are.
Now, if you could clear your light pen for us. And if
we could focus on the camera more specifically on Mr. Dunlap
and Mr. Nichols.
Did you buy anything or sell anything to Mr. Nichols
that day?
A. I purchased some coins from Mr. Nichol (sic) that day.
Q. Do you recall how many coins that you purchased?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you have any record that reflects the purchase of those
coins that day?
Robert Dunlap - Direct
A. No, I don't.
Q. How do you recall that then?
A. By viewing the videotape. It's normal procedure that I do.
Q. And how do -- how did you pay for the purchase of coins
from Mr. Nichols that day?
A. I paid him in cash.
Q. On a typical day, how much cash do you have on hand to
purchase coins or other items from customers that come in?
A. It varies.
Q. And what does -- what is the range?
A. It can be from a few thousand to 8-, 9-, 10,000.
Q. What time did your transaction with Mr. Nichols conclude
that morning?
A. At about 10:17.
Q. And where did Mr. Nichols -- did Mr. Nichols leave the
store at that 10:17?
A. Immediately.
Q. What was your -- the telephone number at your store, Equity
Standards? What is the telephone number at your store?
A. It's area code (316) 689-8773.
Q. And was that the same telephone number that you had in
October of 1994?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MEARNS: I'd like to display Government Exhibit
1888, page 7, please.
Robert Dunlap - Direct
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize this, Mr. Dunlap?
A. It appears to be a phone record from Tuesday, 10-18 of
1994.
Q. And have you examined this record prior to coming to court
today?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Okay. And as you see on that record, there are a series of
telephone calls from a Coastal Mart pay telephone in Council
Grove, Kansas, beginning at 3:32 in the afternoon, proceeding
down the page to a call -- the last call reflected there at
4:05 p.m. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And if you would look at the last phone call from that same
Coastal Mart pay phone in Council Grove, and the "call to" on
the right-hand side, do you recognize the phone number there
that's listed for Equity Standard Numismatics?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that your -- was that your telephone number in
October of 1994?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, if we would turn to the next page, 1888, page A. Have
you reviewed this record prior to coming to court?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And you see there a series of six telephone calls from a
Robert Dunlap - Direct
Denny's pay phone in Wichita, Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. And you see that there's a series of phone calls. Do
you -- could you read into the record what the telephone number
is at that Denny's pay phone?
A. Yes. It's area code (316) 684-9041.
Q. And the first call begins at 10:24 a.m.; is that correct,
Mr. Dunlap?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. When -- when is that time in relation to when Mr. Nichols
left your store that morning?
A. Almost eight minutes after he left my store.
Q. Do you know where that Denny's pay phone is located in
relation to your store in Wichita?
A. Yes. It's about five minutes' walking distance.
Q. I'd like you to look in your folder for Government Exhibit
1734.
Do you see it?
A. Yes, I have it.
Q. What is that?
A. This is an aerial photograph of the shopping center where
my business is located and the surrounding area.
Q. And does it reflect your store?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Does it also reflect the Denny's pay phone that you just
Robert Dunlap - Direct
spoke about a moment ago?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And does it fairly and accurately depict the relative
distance between those locations?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, we would offer Government
Exhibit 1734.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MEARNS: And if we may publish it, please.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Could you put an X by where your store is located in this
photograph, 1734.
And now if you could put a circle around the Denny's
restaurant where the pay phone is located.
And how is it that you know the Denny's pay phone
number that was listed in that record, 1888, is located in that
Denny's restaurant?
A. I went in and looked at it.
MR. MEARNS: I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Dunlap. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one
Robert Dunlap - Cross
of the lawyers appointed to help Terry Nichols in this case.
We saw some photographs from your business in
September of '94 where Mr. McVeigh is captured on your video;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, you keep videos for a long time, evidently, at
your place, do you not?
A. For some -- for some circumstance, yes.
Q. What period of time do you keep the videos that are on your
security camera?
A. It varies.
Q. Well, the FBI came to you in February of '96 and asked you
for these videos, and you had them for October '94; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So what period of time do you keep videos?
A. Well, the videos that I had were for another particular
reason. I'd had a sprinkler system discharge in my space, and
I was keeping them for that.
Q. For insurance purposes to show --
A. Yes.
Q. -- the damage?
A. Yes. And then the -- the refurbishing of it.
Q. So what -- what period of time did you start keeping videos
then in '94?
Robert Dunlap - Cross
A. Initially about eight, ten weeks.
Q. No, what -- what month was it that you started keeping
them?
A. I started -- I have the ones from 1994 from, like, late
July or early August.
Q. All the way through till when?
A. Till now.
Q. So you've kept them every -- every day since August --
July, August '94?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And these are quick-time videos that you can then
just write on your cassette and keep them?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, the first -- first series of photos that were
offered into evidence showed Mr. McVeigh there during a
weekday; is that correct? On Wednesday, September the 14th?
A. It was September the 14th, yes.
Q. And didn't your camera reflect that that was a workday,
Wednesday?
A. I believe so.
Q. During the middle of the week?
A. I believe so.
Q. Okay. And he asked that the check be written out to a
Marife Nichols; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Robert Dunlap - Cross
Q. Did you notice how Mr. McVeigh arrived at your store; in
any particular type vehicle?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you see him leave and get into a vehicle?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So you didn't see him with anyone outside; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. The check was made out to Marife Nichols; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it's endorsed by Marife Nichols on the back; is that
correct?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, why don't you take a look at it and see what name is
on the back of where the -- for the endorsement.
A. Marife Nichols appears on the reverse of the check.
Q. Okay. And those are your checks that you keep as part of
your business; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you have a bank down the street as you related giving
the directions to -- you have a bank that you do business with
that'll cash your checks that you issue to the customers who
sell you items; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you directed Mr. McVeigh to that bank --
Robert Dunlap - Cross
A. Yes, I did.
Q. -- to cash that check?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. Now, the other series of photos that you talked
about in your testimony was of Mr. Nichols on October 19, '94;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the FBI in February of '96 came to you and asked for
the videos; is that correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. And by looking at that video, what, a year and a half
later -- what's the time from October of '94 to February of
'96?
A. It's about 18 months, I guess.
Q. 18 months. A year and a half later, by looking at that
video, you can recall that you bought coins from Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. But you didn't make any record of that one?
A. I can't find the record in my records that reflects that.
Q. Well, sometimes you use checks to pay customers for their
coins; right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, you're required by the Internal Revenue Service to
report to Internal Revenue Service on various transactions when
you buy coins of certain value and content of gold, aren't you?
Robert Dunlap - Cross
A. Certain quantities, yes.
Q. Okay. And the best way to keep those records is a check
register, I assume; is that correct?
A. Check or cash. I mean, write down the receipts.
Q. And in the month of October, you have a check register and
you had 37 checks that you wrote for the month of October,
didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And those were to customers that were selling you items?
A. I couldn't tell you if all of those were to customers
selling items or not.
Q. Okay. Well, you have to keep records for Internal Revenue
Service because of your business, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. But you don't have any record for this
transaction for Mr. Nichols on October 19; is that correct?
A. I don't have any way of reflecting that actual transaction,
no.
Q. Okay. And you have no idea what the transaction was, do
you, a year and a half later when they asked you about it?
A. I know that I did pay the gentleman in cash, and I know I
did buy coins from him.
Q. And you just don't have any recollection?
A. I don't have any recollection of the specific transaction,
no.
Robert Dunlap - Cross
Q. And you do a lot of your business in cash, don't you, sir?
A. We do some, yes.
Q. But you just don't keep records of those cash transactions?
A. No. We do keep records of those cash transactions.
Q. Do you have a record for that day, October 19, '94, of that
cash transaction?
A. I'm not certain of that particular transaction, no.
Q. Okay. Now, do you recall back on September the 6th, when
an investigator from our staff came to interview you?
September the 6th of '95?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And you told him you wouldn't talk to him but that you
would check with the FBI and Mr. Randy Wolverton and he could
come back the next day?
A. No. What I said was that I'd prefer not to speak with him
at that time.
Q. But you asked him to come back the next day?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And is it true that Mr. Killam, the investigator,
came back the next day?
A. No.
Q. On September the 7th, didn't you advise him that you had
spoken to FBI Agent Randy Wolverton and that you had nothing to
say to us?
A. No. What I did was I advised him of the agent's name I
Robert Dunlap - Cross
spoke to at his request.
Q. Okay. And after speaking to the FBI, you had nothing to
say to us; is that correct?
A. I had nothing to say to you before.
Q. Uh-huh. And who was the agent that you advised Mr. Killam
that you had spoken to?
A. I had contacted Mr. Wolverton.
MR. WOODS: Thanks for this opportunity, Mr. Dunlap,
to talk to you. Nothing further, your Honor.
MR. MEARNS: Very briefly.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Dunlap, in your business, do you honor a customer's
request to pay that customer either by cash or by check?
A. Yes.
Q. And on this particular transaction, the transaction with
Mr. Nichols, you paid him -- you paid in cash?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that at his request or was that your decision?
A. I -- I couldn't recollect.
Q. If Mr. Nichols had requested a check, would you have given
Mr. Nichols a check?
A. Most definitely.
Q. And if you had paid him with a check, would you have been
able to identify the specific transaction?
Robert Dunlap - Redirect
A. Yes, I would have.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. You have no recollection of this transaction, do you, sir,
in February of '96 when they first came to you?
A. No.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
MR. MEARNS: Witness may be excused, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agree to excuse?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dunlap, you may step down.
You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. We'll call Mary Garza.
(Mary Garza affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Mary Garza, G-A-R-Z-A.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Garza, where do you live?
Mary Garza - Direct
A. Abilene, Kansas.
Q. And where do you work?
A. Fort Riley, Kansas, at the DRMO.
Q. What does DRMO stand for?
A. Defense Reutilization Marketing Office.
Q. Are you in the military, ma'am?
A. No. I'm a civilian.
Q. Where in Kansas is Fort Riley?
A. About the middle.
Q. Is it between Manhattan and Junction City?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. How long have you been at DRMO?
A. 12 -- a little over 12 years.
Q. You've told us what the initials stand for. What does DRMO
do?
A. Defense Reutilization Marketing Office, and we're a -- sort
of like a recycling center. Everything that's excess, surplus,
or if it's broken, it comes to us and we try to find a new home
for it within the DOD and federal agencies. And then if we
can't do that, then it goes to the sales block and we sell it.
Q. And this excess property comes from where?
A. Comes from the Department of Defense within Fort Riley,
some from Topeka, various organizations -- federal and DOD
organizations.
Q. Ms. Garza, can you make sure to speak into the microphone
Mary Garza - Direct
when you give your answers. Thank you.
What was your position at the DRMO when you started 12
years ago?
A. I was warehouseman.
Q. And what are the responsibilities of a warehouseman at
DRMO?
A. I took in the property and confirmed the paperwork that
went with it, placed it in the appropriate areas.
Q. Was that in-house, inside the DRMO warehouse area then?
A. Yes. Most generally, I worked inside.
Q. How long did you work in the warehouse?
A. About four or five years.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I became a sales writer.
Q. What's a sales writer at DRMO?
A. We do an itemized description of the property and get ready
to catalog it for sale.
Q. And the descriptions are -- are then compiled in a catalog;
is that right?
A. Right.
Q. When are items offered for sale to the public?
A. It takes about 90 days for it to go through the whole
process. It's -- first, we have to find a home for it, and
it's called reutilizing properties. And if we can't find that
home for it, then it goes to the sales block.
Mary Garza - Direct
Q. Okay. That first part of the process, the reutilization
process, what does that involve?
A. That involves my -- my section having to find customers for
it. We check on the Web and various organizations on the base
to see if anyone needs that property first. And then the
federal agencies get contacted, see if they need it.
Q. So in those first steps, is the public involved at all in
purchasing the property?
A. No.
Q. Are you still a sales writer, Ms. Garza?
A. No. I'm not.
Q. What's your position now?
A. Chief of the distribution branch.
Q. What's the distribution branch at DRMO?
A. In charge of reutilization and the sales process.
Q. So you supervise both ends of the way DRMO gets rid of
property?
A. Right.
Q. And how long have you been chief of the distribution
branch?
A. About five years.
Q. Were you chief of the distribution branch in April, 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked for identification
as Government Exhibit 1962, which will pop up on your screen
Mary Garza - Direct
under your window there. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes. It's a layout of Camp Funston.
Q. And is Camp Funston where the DRMO is located?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the way DRMO and
the surrounding area looked in April, 1995?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1962, your
Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Garza, can you take the light pen, which should be on
your left up there -- it's got a cord attached to it -- and
could you mark on this exhibit, just put a circle around the
area that's the DRMO.
Is it about there?
A. It's a little to the left, but that's it.
Q. What are the other areas to the left of the DRMO, itself?
A. Okay. There's like a storage area. There are -- this is
the National Guard units and -- are clear, clear to the left.
And further down here, there is more areas. DOL, they store
vehicles over there, but they are not part of the DRMO.
Q. Ms. Garza, if you're at the DRMO without a vehicle, is
there anyplace to go within walking distance to get a cup of
Mary Garza - Direct
coffee or something?
A. No.
Q. I want -- ask you to take a look now at Government Exhibit
1961. And can you click the side of your pen, Ms. Garza, and
get rid of those marks.
Do you recognize what's depicted in Government 1961?
A. Yes. DRMO.
Q. And is that a fair and accurate depiction of DRMO as it
appeared in April '95?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1961, your
Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Okay. Ms. Garza, using your light pen, could you please
describe the basic layout of the DRMO.
A. This is the -- this is the main warehouse right here. This
part right here is where the offices are. This part here is
where the inside warehouse storage is.
Q. Okay.
A. This is B warehouse. This is an overflow area. This is
our outside yard. This is hazardous back here. We have more
property. Here's -- the middle part coincides with this part,
also. R deck.
Mary Garza - Direct
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry. I can't hear. What was the
middle part?
THE COURT: Would you speak up?
THE WITNESS: This one here?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Yes.
A. This one. For the bigger, bulkier items. They will store
them there, and they also are like Area 2, 3. This is Area 2,
3, 4. 2, 3, 4. 5 -- excuse me, last one is 5.
Q. Okay.
A. And this is the parking lot. And up front is also parking.
Q. Ms. Garza, we'll get into the numbers of the different
areas in a minute. You mentioned that items turned in to the
DRMO are first reutilized and only then offered for sale to the
public; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. How -- once they are determined that they are going to be
offered to the public, how is that done?
A. The sales writers go out and write up the property. And
it's an itemized description. It gets catalogued, and we mail
out catalogues.
Q. Okay. But when the property is finally offered to the
public for sale, is it done through auction or through some
different type of sale?
A. Yes. Auctions and sealed bids.
Mary Garza - Direct
Q. And what's the difference between an auction and a
sealed-bid sale?
A. An auction is live, like in civilian sector. You have an
auctioneer. You register, you have paddles. And a sealed bid
is silent. You get a bidder's registration. You sign your
sheets and your bid sheets. You annotate your bid sheets as to
what item you want and how much you bid, and you hand it in.
And then on the 4th day, that's when we decide who gets the
bid. It's computerized.
Q. The item goes to the highest bidder at that point?
A. Right.
Q. Is the public given an opportunity to inspect items for
sale before both auctions and sealed-bid sales?
A. Yeah. There's a three-day inspection period.
Q. Is that called -- are those days called "viewing days"?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Okay. Now, for any given sale, Ms. Garza, would all the
items at DRMO be offered for sale to the public?
A. No.
Q. About how much of the DRMO's property would be offered to
the public each sale?
A. Just those areas. It's about a fourth of the property.
Q. About a fourth. And what about the -- the rest of the
items that are not offered for sale to the public at that
particular time? Is the public allowed to view those items on
Mary Garza - Direct
viewing days anyway?
A. No. They are not.
Q. Are the items that are for sale and the items that are not
for sale mixed together in the same area?
A. No. They are separated.
Q. And is that what you were talking about before when you
were listing the numbered areas?
A. Right.
Q. Does the DRMO have a policy about whether or not the public
is allowed in areas where there are items that are not for sale
on viewing days?
A. Yes. We try to keep the public out of those areas because
they are not up for sale yet.
Q. What are the reasons for this policy?
A. Because the reutilization program is still in effect. The
stuff can be reutilized all the way up to sale day. There's no
point in having them go through those areas. No. 2, you don't
want to allow some customers in there while others don't have
the opportunity to look.
Q. And how is this policy enforced?
A. Well, the staff's all been informed to try to keep people
out of those areas. So when we see someone, we do ask them to
leave.
Q. Are the areas that are off limits marked in any way?
A. The inside and the outside areas, they have what we call
Mary Garza - Direct
"placards." There's like little signs, and they have numbers
on them. They are all one color. And they should know that
this property -- each pallet has that color on it, and that's
what's up for sale.
Q. Does this policy mean that no one ever gets into an
unauthorized area for any time?
A. No. It -- people have gone through. We try to catch them.
It's hard to keep them in those areas sometimes.
Q. Who enforces this policy in the outside area, out in the
yard?
A. That would be the outside man, Bill.
Q. What's Bill's last name?
A. McDonald.
Q. And what about the people who work inside the office? Do
they have any role in enforcing this rule as it applies to the
outside area?
A. Our office faces part of the yard, so we can pretty much
see the RO area and the sales and "re-ute." section face that
way. So they usually try to watch out the windows, too, when
they can. And if we see somebody, we try to go get them.
Q. Have you ever from the inside personally observed someone
in the off-limits area on the outside?
A. Yes.
Q. And what have you done on those occasions?
A. I've gone out myself, or I've sent someone.
Mary Garza - Direct
Q. Ms. Garza, have you reviewed your records to determine
whether there was a sale in April, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know whether it was an open auction or
sealed-bid sale?
A. Sealed-bid.
Q. Do you know if the viewing days for this sale were the
17th, 18th, and 19th of April?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. And do you know which section of the DRMO the items for
sale on April 18th, were located in?
A. Area 2.
Q. Would you please examine Government Exhibit 1960. It
should be coming up on your screen, Ms. Garza.
A. Okay.
Q. Does this diagram accurately reflect which areas of the
DRMO were open to the public on the viewing day of April 18,
1995?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1960, your
Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Now, Ms. Garza, if you could reach for your light pen
Mary Garza - Direct
again, and mark on this diagram where it is that customers who
came to this viewing day would park.
A. Can you see that?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. That's the front parking lot. And over there is another
parking lot.
Q. And where would customers first enter the sale?
A. Okay. Right here. It's on the yellow.
Q. That little arrow on the yellow part?
A. The yellow block is where they are supposed to go into,
AO2.
Q. Ms. Garza, would it help you if we showed you an
enlargement of this diagram? Would it help you to explain?
A. I can see it. I can't work the pen.
Q. Okay. Would it help you if you could just point --
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, could we move to admit an
enlargement of Government Exhibit 1960?
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, for demonstrative purposes
only.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Garza, if you want to step down, or you can just use
the pointer, whichever is more convenient for you. And point
again to where the parking lots are that you marked down on the
Mary Garza - Direct
screen.
A. Here's the main parking lot. And right in front of here is
parking.
Q. Okay. And then where do customers first enter the sale?
A. Through this door right here.
Q. What -- what does the customer see when they first enter at
that door in the AO2 area?
A. It has steps, and we've got pennants on it, banners
indicating that's the area to go into.
Q. Okay. But once they get inside, what do they first see?
A. They see the ladies with a table and catalogues.
Q. Okay. What -- what else is at the table besides
catalogues?
A. Registration, bidder sheets.
Q. And the catalogues that are at the table, are those what
you were describing you would write when you were a sales
writer?
A. Correct.
Q. They contain descriptions of items for sale?
A. Right.
Q. Is there any way for customers to get a catalogue besides
getting one there at the sale, itself?
A. Through the mailing list.
Q. And in April, 1995, did the DRMO have a mailing list?
A. Yes, we did.
Mary Garza - Direct
Q. Then referring back to the diagram, Ms. Garza, after a
customer went in and got a catalogue and signed in, what would
they do after that?
A. They would look around the area inside here where the
property is at. Then the -- the lady at the desk would tell
them where the rest of it's at. They would have to exit back
out of here and go through this fence, the gate, and see this
property right there and there.
Q. And is there different types of property offered for sale
in the different areas marked in yellow?
A. Yes. Inside property is right here. And that's the stuff
that the weather would damage: Dressers, clothing -- military
clothing, computers, typewriters.
Q. What about the RO2 area?
A. Okay. RO2 has got refrigerators, automotive parts, ammo
cans, things of that area.
Q. You mentioned ammunition cans?
A. Yes.
Q. How were they sold? Were they sold individually?
A. No. By the lot. They were banded.
Q. So could customers open up and examine each individual
ammunition can if they wanted?
A. No, they were -- were banded with a metal band through the
handles of them.
Q. Okay. What kind of things were up for sale in the S2 area
Mary Garza - Direct
up top?
A. Vehicles, abandoned vehicles and cargo trailers.
Q. Abandoned vehicles and cargo trailers?
A. Right.
Q. And if a customer was interested both in items on the
inside and on the outside, you indicated that -- would you
point again to where they would walk.
A. Okay. They would come out of here, and that's the main
gate, drive-in gate. Of course, they don't drive in. And they
would go through this area and then through this area.
Q. And if, after viewing items, the customer decided that he
or she wanted to put a bid down, is there a location to submit
a bid?
A. Yes. They would come back through this area here. This is
what the -- what is called the "auction room." It's the bid
room. There's a cashier's cage here, and that's where they
will go to and submit their bids.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, can the record reflect that
Ms. Garza was pointing at the upper left corner of the
warehouse area depicted on Government 1960.
THE COURT: If you say so. I can't see it.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Agent Tongate. Put it down
now.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. You pointed out where customers would submit their bids.
Mary Garza - Direct
Did the DRMO have any practice of time-stamping the customer's
bid?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And when was that done?
A. After the customer completed his bid sheet and it was given
to the individual taking it.
Q. After the customer handed in the bid sheet, how long would
it take before the bid sheet was time-stamped?
A. Right then and there.
Q. Ms. Garza -- can you click -- no need.
You mentioned that when customers first arrived at the
DRMO, there would be signs directing them where to go?
A. Yes.
Q. What if, for some reason, a customer did not want to follow
the signs and sign in and instead wanted to go straight to the
outside yard? Was there anything physically preventing them
from doing that?
A. No.
Q. Ms. Garza, do you remember the April, 1995 sale?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anything unique about that sale that makes you
remember it?
A. It was a zone sale.
Q. What's a zone sale?
A. We had to combine Fort Leavenworth sale with our sale and
Mary Garza - Direct
sell them together, thinking that would help promote the
property better by having two sales.
Q. And does that mean that you actually showed -- had the Fort
Leavenworth property on your base?
A. No, we didn't.
Q. Did DRMO have any -- did DRMO Fort Riley have any zone
sales before April, 1995?
A. No, we didn't.
Q. Did you have any after April, 1995?
A. No.
Q. Was there anything else unusual about the April, 1995 sale
besides that it was in conjunction with Fort Leavenworth?
A. It was a small sale.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Smaller than what we'd been having in downsize. We were
having about 350 to 400 lots. This one was somewhat over 200
lots, including Leavenworth.
Q. And when you talk about small, are you talking about the
number of items offered for sale?
A. Right.
Q. I want to show you a series of different records,
Ms. Garza, created at different points in the DRMO sale
process. And I'll put up 1960 again. And would you identify
again where the sign-in desk would be when customers first
entered the sale.
Mary Garza - Direct
A. We'll get there. The yellow place.
Q. Right when they would walk in the building?
A. Yeah. Right when they walk in.
Q. Now, would all customers entering the building be required
to sign in?
A. Yes.
Q. How strict was that policy in April, 1995?
A. I always had someone sitting there to -- to help the
customers sign in.
Q. You always had someone sitting there at the desk?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What about if the person sitting at the desk had to go away
for five minutes to use the bathroom or something?
A. I had someone in the office cover that. I'd have them go
down every hour to check on people to see if they needed to be
relieved.
Q. Was there a reason that you were so strict about this
sign-in policy?
A. It's part of the regulation. They want us to have people
sign in when they come in.
Q. And as chief of the distribution branch, did you have any
other interest in having people sign in, having that log
accurately reflect sign-ins?
A. Well, I liked it because I could do my marketing with it.
Found out where people were coming from. I do all the
Mary Garza - Direct
marketing for the branch.
Q. Okay. Would you look inside your folder, please, and see
if you can find Government Exhibit 1963.
A. Okay.
Q. And could you also look and see if you can find Government
Exhibit 1956. It should be the same type of document.
A. Okay.
Q. Are both of those DRMO sign-in logs?
A. Yes.
Q. And are both of those records that DRMO makes and keeps in
its course of business?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I move to admit Government
1956 and 1963.
MR. WOODS: May I examine these, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
Thank you, your Honor. No objection.
THE COURT: They are received. 1963 and 1956.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Garza, you said that the sign-in policy was strict.
Can you say the same for the sign-out policy?
A. No.
Q. Why is that?
Mary Garza - Direct
A. It was hard to control them once they left the yard.
Q. You mentioned that there would be a pile of catalogues when
customers went in; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Could you look and see if you can find what's already been
received in evidence Government 1957 and 1958.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize those booklets?
A. Yes. They are catalogues from the April sale.
Q. April, 1995 sale?
A. Right.
Q. They are both catalogues from the same sale?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, without opening up those catalogues, is there anything
from the front of them that you can see that distinguishes one
from the other?
A. One's been mailed and it's got a mailing label on it and
one hasn't.
Q. Which is the one that has been mailed? Can you look at the
number on that, please.
A. This. 1957.
Q. I want to show you the cover of that on the screen. And is
that the cover from Government Exhibit 1957?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the type of mailing label that the DRMO uses?
Mary Garza - Direct
A. Right.
Q. And can you please read into the record to whom this
particular catalogue was mailed and the address.
A. Joe Rivers, 1228 Westloop, Apartment 197, Manhattan,
Kansas.
Q. When a customer submits a bid at the DRMO, Ms. Garza, is
there a form that the DRMO provides to them where they can list
what items they are interested in bidding on?
A. Correct. It's a bid sheet.
Q. It's called a bid sheet?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Are there any bid sheets contained in the DRMO catalogues?
A. Yes. They are printed inside there.
Q. Where in the catalogue are there?
A. Usually towards the end.
Q. Could you look in Government's Exhibits 1957 and 1958 to
see if the bid sheets are still inside those two catalogues.
A. Yes, they are.
Q. They have not yet been removed?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Could you see if you can find Government Exhibit
1964.
A. Okay.
Q. What's that?
A. 1427 -- it's a contract. Bidder's registration -- excuse
Mary Garza - Direct
me. It's a bidder's registration.
Q. The bid sheet?
A. Yes.
Q. It's one that's been filled out?
A. Right.
Q. Does DRMO keep the bid sheets once the customer has turned
it in?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. And is that a business record of the DRMO?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1964, your
Honor.
MR. WOODS: May I examine, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1964 is received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Is that the color of bid sheets at DRMO when they are first
printed up, Government Exhibit 1964? Is that a --
A. They are white. This one's --
Q. That one is a little darker. Is it hard to read some of
the items on that, Ms. Garza?
A. A little bit. I can probably read them still.
Q. Okay. Can you look and see if you can find Government
Exhibit 1964A, which should just be a copy before the
Mary Garza - Direct
fingerprinting process of the front of that slip.
A. Okay.
Q. And is that just a copy of the front of the same bid sheet?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit 1964A, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. What name is this bid in, Ms. Garza?
A. Terry Nichols.
Q. Okay. You mentioned earlier that when customers submitted
a bid, the bid sheet was time-stamped; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you see a time stamp on this bid sheet?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is it?
A. Left-hand -- 18 March, '95.
Q. Upper left-hand corner?
A. Yes.
Q. And can you read the time stamp into the record, please.
A. 18 March, '95, 12:37.
Q. And could you now look at the back of 1964 and see if
there's a different date where the customer signed.
A. It's 18 April.
Q. Do you know why the time stamp would be different from the
Mary Garza - Direct
written date, Ms. Garza?
A. Because the time stamp was broke.
Q. Do you know how broke the time stamp was?
A. It was off a month and an hour.
Q. Now, was it broke or was it just not set correctly?
A. No. It -- we only used it three days a month. And by the
time we realized it, every month, it would be off. It was --
it just didn't pick up the time. It would run, but it wouldn't
catch up.
Q. It would run, though?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And it was consistently one month and one hour off; is that
right?
A. Right.
Q. So adjusting for the discrepancy in the time stamp then,
was this bid actually submitted at 1:37 p.m. on April, not
March 18?
A. Right.
Q. Why don't you take a look at Government Exhibit 1972. It
should be on your screen, Ms. Garza, if you don't want to
bother finding it.
Is that also a bid sheet from the same sale?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1972, your
Honor.
Mary Garza - Direct
MR. WOODS: May I examine this original?
THE COURT: Yes. Yes.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
Thank you. No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1972 is received.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Just a couple more exhibits, Ms. Garza. Will you find
Government Exhibit 1966, please.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize that record?
A. It's a contract.
Q. How does the DRMO use this contract?
A. It's a 1427. We print it out after we've awarded the
property to the highest bidder.
Q. So after the bidder gets the property, this is the kind of
receipt of sale?
A. Right.
Q. And is this also a business record that DRMO keeps?
A. Right.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1966, your
Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 1966.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Mary Garza - Direct
Q. What sale is this particular document from?
A. 31st of March, '95.
Q. Okay. It's from the month before the sale we had been
talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to turn back to Government 1956, which is the
sign-in sheet that was admitted a couple minutes ago. And I
want to show you page 11 from that sign-in sheet. Would you
please read the third name on this 11th page. I'll zoom in a
little bit more for you.
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry. What number was that?
MR. GOELMAN: 1956, page 11.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you read that, the name on the --
A. Terry Nichols.
Q. And can you read the time that the sign-in reflects.
A. It looks like 12:50.
Q. Would that be a.m. or p.m.?
A. In the afternoon.
Q. So ten minutes before 1 in the afternoon?
A. Correct.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, the parties have reached a
handwriting stipulation that the -- that particular entry,
including the name, date, and time of 12:50, is the handwriting
Mary Garza - Direct
of Mr. Nichols.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. That is the stipulation.
THE COURT: All right. Then we accept it, members of
the jury.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. I just have a couple more questions, Ms. Garza. At the
Government's request, did you review the entire sign-in log
from April 18, 1995, at the DRMO?
A. Right.
Q. And did you search for any other entries in the name of
Terry Nichols?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you also search for any entries in the name of Joe
Rivers?
A. Yes.
Q. And Joe Kyle?
A. Yes.
Q. And Ted Parker?
A. Yes.
Q. And Terry Havens, Joe Havens and Mike Havens?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find that anyone using any of these names signed in
at the DRMO at any time before 12:50 in the afternoon?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Have you been able to locate any record at all that
Mary Garza - Direct
reflects Terry Nichols' presence at the DRMO before 10 minutes
of 1 in the afternoon on April 18?
A. No, I did not.
MR. GOELMAN: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Garza. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of
the lawyers appointed to help Terry Nichols in this case.
You mentioned to the prosecutor that you're not in the
military. Is DRMO -- is that a governmental agency?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And you're employed by the government?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. How many times have you met with the prosecutors in
this case?
A. Three.
Q. Okay. And when was that?
A. I believe the first week of September and Oc -- first week
of October, and this week.
Q. All right. And prior to that, you've met with the FBI a
number of times; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you recall how many times you met --
Mary Garza - Cross
A. No. It was a lot of times.
Q. Okay. More than you can recall numberwise?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, was it the FBI that made the request to you to
try and figure out what's wrong with that clock?
A. Yes.
Q. Because your documents didn't make sense, did they, with --
A. No, they didn't.
Q. -- with your bidder registration and your sign-in -- or
rather your bidder sheet that shows when the person submits a
bid on April 18th, your time stamp shows March 18th; is that
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. So they asked you, you know, would -- to check it and you
checked it personally; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, it's one month off, but it's also one hour off; is
that correct?
A. Right.
Q. Which way is the hour off?
A. It was back an hour. So it should have been up an hour.
Q. So everything should have been up --
A. Daylight Savings Time or something with that.
Q. Well, Daylight Savings Time doesn't change the months, does
it?
Mary Garza - Cross
A. No. It ran slow. Now, I don't -- before the sale, the
lady is always supposed to change it so it's back up to par,
but sometimes we didn't catch it.
Q. That's part of your strict compliance that you run --
A. No. That's common sense.
Q. -- there at the shop?
A. That's common sense. We were trying to get it fixed.
Q. Okay. You were trying to get it fixed for what period of
time?
A. God, that was quite a while back. I think we had a work
order in for it. Before --
Q. For the --
A. Before that.
Q. For the government to fix that clock, you had to submit a
work order to get it moved up a month?
A. No. There had to be something wrong why it wouldn't run.
It was just losing time. I'm not an expert in that field.
Q. Okay. But we know that this governmental time stamp stamps
people in when they submit their bid. The clock was off one
month and one hour.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And it's behind time; is that correct? That month and
hour. So if the person signs in at 12:00 on April 18th, your
time stamp would have it March 18th at 11:00? Is that what
you're telling us about this clock?
Mary Garza - Cross
A. I'm telling you the clock was off one month, one hour.
When they sign in, it doesn't have anything to do with the
clock.
Q. No, I'm speaking of your bidder sheet when the bidder sheet
is submitted and you time stamp it.
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And your explanation was it just kept losing time
over --
A. It just wouldn't -- I don't have a clue why that did that.
Q. Okay. But I assume your other clocks there in that office
were all perfect; is that correct?
A. I suppose not. They are all a couple minutes off.
Q. Okay. Now, you have an exhibit in front of you, 1957, the
catalogue that was mailed to Joe Rivers, Manhattan, Kansas, a
Westloop address.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is that the catalogue that was mailed out in advance
of this sale, your sealed-bid sale of April the 20th? Can you
look at that and see if that's a catalogue that was mailed out
for this sale?
A. Yes, it's the April sale.
Q. All right. And in the catalogue, it announces that you can
view the items on the three days previously; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And that's April 17, 18th, and 19th.
Mary Garza - Cross
A. Right.
Q. All right. Now, would you open that up. How many items
were up for sale there at DRMO at Fort Riley for that sealed
bid, sealed auction sale?
A. 196.
Q. And those are separate lot numbers. Like if you got a big
lot number of ammo cans, that's one item; is that correct?
A. On those, yes.
Q. All right. Now, how many were inside of those items 196 --
how many of them were in the inside warehouse and how many of
them were in the outside area?
A. Okay. In the catalogue, on Item 85, it'll tell you the
outside area starts there.
Q. So the first 1 through 84 is on the inside in the warehouse
and everything from 85 to 195 is on the outside; is that
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, would you look at the bidder sheet that you've
identified that Mr. Nichols submitted.
He submitted bids on how many items?
A. Ten.
Q. All right. Out of that ten, were seven of them items that
were on the outside?
A. Right.
Q. Now, if you would, go back to 1957, which is the catalogue
Mary Garza - Cross
that was mailed to Joe Rivers at the Manhattan address,
Westloop. When those items are listed, 1 through 195, are some
of them circled by pencil or pen?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Can you determine how many are circled there?
You don't mail them out with those circles on them, do
you?
A. No. I'm assuming the customer did this.
Q. Okay.
A. Three.
Q. There are only three items on there that are circled?
A. That's all I saw.
MR. WOODS: May I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thanks.
May I confer with counsel, your Honor? We had been
provided a Xerox copy.
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Is there another catalogue up here?
A. Yeah. This one here.
Q. Thank you. That's the one. Thank you.
Ms. Garza, if you would look at 1958. Now, that is
another catalogue for that same sale; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Mary Garza - Cross
Q. And if you would look through that. And how many of those
items are circled?
A. 20.
Q. Okay. And are there prices out beside a number of those
that are written in by pencil or pen?
A. Yes. Some of them have that.
Q. And do those prices match the prices that were submitted by
Mr. Nichols on his bid sheet that he submitted?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you further testified for the
prosecutor that Mr. Nichols signed a time in on a sign-in log;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, that sign-in log is kept at the office where you go in
to submit your bids; is that correct?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Which sign-in log were you referring to --
MR. WOODS: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
THE WITNESS: Are you talking about this right here?
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Yes.
A. That's at the area that we're selling at where the table is
and the catalogs are.
Q. This is the March 28 one.
Mary Garza - Cross
A. Okay. Either way, they don't hold these at the room where
they put in the bids.
THE COURT: We're getting a conversational tone here
that's hard to hear.
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, your Honor.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. If I may take these.
Now, Ms. Garza, you had discussed and testified about
another sale that Mr. Nichols had taken part in the previous
month; is that correct? In March of '95?
A. Right. Right.
Q. All right. And he had won the bid on that one; is that
correct? On a number of items?
A. I can't recall that.
Q. Okay. Do you recall a contract that you testified about
showing that Mr. Nichols was successful on a bid? It's -- it
should be there in front of you, if you want to refresh your
memory.
THE COURT: 1966, I think.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Okay. And what date was that?
A. 31st March.
Q. And that was a prior sale; is that correct?
Mary Garza - Cross
A. That was an auction.
Q. And the sales are all there at the same location, at the
DRMO?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you testified for the prosecution that a person who
parked there could walk into the gate to view the items in the
outside area; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Without going to the sign-in entry up at the -- up at the
further part of the warehouse; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. There's no locked gate and there's no one there
barring entry into going in and looking at the outside items,
is there?
A. No.
Q. Now, your time stamp on the bidder sheet which shows that
Mr. Nichols filled out a bid for ten items, the time stamp
shows -- again, what was it?
A. 18 March, 12:37. 18 March, '95.
Q. At 12:37?
A. Right.
Q. So by your calculations for the Government on April the
26th -- this is when they brought it to your attention, wasn't
it? April 26 of '95?
A. I don't recall that date. I'm sorry.
Mary Garza - Cross
Q. It was -- by looking at the time stamp and looking at your
watch, that was the day you figured out that it was a month and
an hour off; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But we don't know what was --
A. I mean, we knew it was off before that.
Q. Pardon me?
A. We knew it was broke.
Q. But you're not sure of how far it was off the week before?
A. I can't recall.
Q. Okay. Now, was Mr. Nichols awarded the contract on any of
those ten items that he submitted a bid on?
A. The ones on the contract, yes.
Q. Yes, ma'am. The ones for your April the 20th sale.
A. Correct. He has the contract.
Q. No. For the April the 20th sale, he submitted a bid on ten
items.
A. Oh, I'm sorry. That --
Q. Was he awarded the contract on any of those?
MR. GOELMAN: May I make a foundational objection? If
she knows. This might be something she doesn't know off the
top of her head.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. If you know. Did the FBI ask you to check the prices and
to see what contracts had been awarded on that sealed bid?
Mary Garza - Cross
A. We just -- no. Not in particular.
Q. All right. Okay.
A. At that point, we were just pulling --
Q. Pulling the documents --
A. Pulling documentation.
Q. -- is that correct?
MR. WOODS: All right. Your Honor, we would ask that
(sic) the stipulation that the Government and we have entered
into that the handwriting on that catalogue with the circles
and the price indications is the handwriting of Terry Nichols.
THE COURT: That is on 1957?
MR. GOELMAN: I think that's 1958, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: I believe it's on 1958, your Honor.
THE COURT: 1958. Yes. That's agreed?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Jury accepts that agreement.
Now, that's the catalogue, not the mailed catalogue, the other
one?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, the sign-out dates or sign-out times on that sheet are
not accurate? Is that your testimony?
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, can I just have an exhibit
number of what sheet he's talking about.
Mary Garza - Cross
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. It's 1956.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. When the customers leave the area, be it from the inside
warehouse or the outside warehouse, most of them don't sign the
sign-out sheet, do they?
A. Some of them don't.
Q. Okay.
A. True.
Q. And the ladies managing the sign-in/sign-out sheet often
fill in the times for sign-out, don't they?
A. Sometimes they will try to lock in the times.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you, your Honor. No further
questions.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Garza, you have two catalogues up there from the April,
1995 sale; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Government 1957 and Government 1958?
A. Correct.
Q. Which one of those has the mailing label on it?
A. 1957.
Mary Garza - Redirect
Q. And which one of those has the circles around the items
that Mr. Nichols bid on?
A. I think it was 1958. Just a minute. 1958's got the 20 in
it with the prices on it.
Q. And which one has the handwritten prices that Mr. Nichols
wrote? 1957 or 1958?
A. 1958.
Q. Is 1958 the kind of catalogue that you can get in the mail?
A. It's the same catalogue. This one was apparently picked up
at the DRMO. It has no mailing label or post office stamp on
it.
Q. And you indicated that people pick up catalogues at the
DRMO when they sign in; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do sometimes people use catalogues that they pick up when
they first sign in to make notations when they are walking
around, looking at items?
A. Exactly.
Q. And do sometimes those notations include the price that
they want to bid so that they have a record of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Garza, if someone gets a catalogue in the mail, is that
catalogue necessarily accurate as far as everything that is and
is not going to be offered for sale that month?
A. No.
Mary Garza - Redirect
Q. Why is that?
A. Because of the regulations. The Department of Defense
still has the right to draw property from the sale right --
right up to the sale day. So when we have to make a change,
we -- we annotate that change and we put those -- that
information on the table with the catalogues, let people know
if something has been withdrawn or if there's been something
altered.
Q. And if a customer were to, for whatever reason, not sign in
when they first got there and go directly to the yard, would
they have any way of finding out items that had been withdrawn?
A. Not -- no.
Q. Not until they signed in?
A. Right.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you some questions about the time stamp and
when you noticed that it was off by one month and one hour.
When -- when you spoke to the FBI after the bombing, did you do
a test stamp, Ms. Garza?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what did you determine?
A. It was off by a month and an hour.
Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the time written down by
the customer, Mr. Nichols, as 12:50 p.m.?
A. No, I don't.
Q. And have you ever known anyone to submit a bid before they
Mary Garza - Redirect
sign in?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: One moment, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Unless it's faxed-in bids. We have
faxed-in bids.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. I'm talking about when customers are physically present at
the sale. What do they do first? Do they sign in first or do
they submit a bid first?
A. They sign in first, and then they look around and then they
submit a bid.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Ms. Garza. That's all I
have.
MR. WOODS: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Witness excused?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, and you're excused.
We'll take our midmorning recess at this time, members
of the jury. And again, of course, with the recess comes the
caution of keeping an open mind and avoiding discussion about
any aspect of the case and avoiding anything outside of our
evidence which could influence you which would be improper to
do so on your decisions to be made.
You're excused now. 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:18 a.m.)
THE COURT: Okay. Recess.
(Recess at 10:18 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:39 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Jury in at 10:39 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, our next witness is William
McDonald.
THE COURT: Very well.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(William McDonald affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: William McDonald, M-C-D-O-N-A-L-D.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. McDonald, do you work in the yard at the DRMO in Fort
Riley?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where do you live, sir?
William McDonald - Direct
A. I live in Grandview Plaza. Grandview Plaza, Kansas.
Q. Grandview Plaza, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any grandchildren?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you spend some time in the U.S. military, Mr. McDonald?
A. 24 years, sir.
Q. What branch of the service was that?
A. U.S. Army, sir.
Q. Was a good part of those 24 years spent as a drill
sergeant?
A. Seven of those years, sir.
Q. When did you retire from the Army?
A. 1 August 1986, sir.
Q. And what kind of discharge did you get?
A. Honorable.
Q. What position did you hold at the time you left the Army?
A. Sergeant major, sir.
Q. When did you go to work for the DRMO?
A. In 19 June 1989, sir.
Q. Have you been there ever since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you do for the DRMO at Fort Riley?
William McDonald - Direct
A. I receive surplus federal property, offload it, store it,
document it, ensure it's on record.
Q. I want to show you what's already been received in
evidence, Government 1961. Do you recognize that has a picture
of DRMO?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, may I have Agent Tongate put
an enlargement of 1961 on the easel for demonstrative purposes?
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, sir?
THE COURT: All right.
MR. GOELMAN: I'm talking to the Judge, Mr. McDonald.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. McDonald, is there a pointer up there?
A. Oh.
Q. Could you -- no, no. A wooden pointer? It should be on --
A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q. Could you, please, using Government's Exhibit 1961, or I
guess -- is that 1926? Is that how that one is marked, the
enlargement?
Oh, 1961.
Could you point out where you spend your time at the
DRMO?
A. In this area right here, sir.
Q. And what is that area called?
William McDonald - Direct
A. It is designated RO2, 3, 4 and 5, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, could the record reflect
that the witness pointed to the area directly to the left of
the warehouse?
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Now, what types of goods are sold at the DRMO,
Mr. McDonald?
A. We have military tents, automotive equipment, tires, some
household refrigerators, stoves, even some commercial-type
equipment that come out of mess halls; and we have ammunition
cans. We have a large variety of items that's offered for
sale, sir.
Q. And you indicated that your particular area is the RO area?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That part of the yard?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of things are offered for sale in your area?
A. Those items that can stand weather, that's durable-type
goods that's stored outside, sir.
Q. Can you give us a few examples?
A. Tents, tires, automotive equipment, heavy axles,
transmissions, engines.
Q. Ammo cans?
A. Yes, sir.
William McDonald - Direct
Q. When can the public come in and take a look at the property
when it's offered for public sale?
A. Sir, we offer one sale per month under normal standards.
And we have a three-day viewing cycle prior to the auction or
be it opening date, whichever the case it may be, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with the routine followed by the DRMO on
viewing days before sales?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On viewing days, is the public allowed to view all of the
property at DRMO?
A. No, sir.
Q. What is the public allowed to view?
A. The one area that is being sold, sir.
Q. And how many different sections are there in your
particular area, in the RO area?
A. Four, sir.
Q. For any given viewing day, how many of those are people out
in?
A. One, sir.
Q. And has this policy been consistent since you've been at
the DRMO, since 1989?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you received any directions from your supervisors
about how to enforce this policy?
A. On many occasions, sir.
William McDonald - Direct
Q. And what are those instructions?
A. Politely ask the people to leave the area that they're not
supposed to be in but ensure that they leave.
Q. You've described your job to us at DRMO generally. Does
your job change at all on viewing days?
A. On those days, it increases somewhat because I have to
direct a lot of attention to these areas where people should
not be, sir.
Q. And out in the yard, do you do anything to let customers
know what areas are open and what areas are off limits?
A. I have roped those areas off. I've put up metal containers
to prevent people from going into them. I've put up "do not
enter" signs.
Q. Does that mean that customers never go into any of the
unauthorized areas?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do customers sometimes go in there anyway?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your practice when they do?
A. My practice is to get to them as soon as I can and ask them
to leave that area, sir.
Q. How much attention do you pay to what's happening in the
off-limits areas on viewing days?
A. My attention is there quite often. If I'm off-loading a
truck, I'll still look at these areas periodically to determine
William McDonald - Direct
if there is anyone in there.
Q. How long could a customer stay in one of the unauthorized
areas before you ask them to move on?
A. 15 minutes.
Q. Is that maximum?
A. I would say no more than 20, sir.
Q. Have you ever had someone refuse to leave an off-limits
area after you told them to?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever had to tell someone twice?
A. No, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Agent Tongate.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. I want to show you Government's Exhibit -- well, you've
already seen Government's Exhibit 1961. Do you remember the
April, 1995 sale, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what area in the RO area was open to the
public?
A. It was RO2, sir.
Q. And do you remember the March, 1995 sale?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember which area was open to the public during
that sale?
A. It was RO5, sir.
William McDonald - Direct
Q. Is part of your job helping customers load items that they
purchase into their vehicle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know who Terry Nichols is, Mr. McDonald?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you remember if you ever assisted him after the
March, 1995 sale?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I want to show you what's already been introduced into
evidence as Government 1966. Do you see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recognize what kind of document this is?
A. That's our 1427. It's a release document after a sale,
sir.
Q. And how is this document used?
A. When a bidder is awarded a bid on an item, this form is
filled out, reflecting his name, address, the items that he was
awarded, and of course, what he paid for those items.
Q. What's the -- I'm sorry.
A. And then it also shows us that we have a release for those
items, sir.
Q. What name is this particular form in?
A. "Terry Nichols," sir.
Q. Mr. McDonald, do you see anything on this form reflecting
your name or initials?
William McDonald - Direct
A. The bottom line on this form, Item 340, sir, where the one,
two -- fifth column over says "partial" or "part." That's my
writing; and to the right of that, that's my initials, sir.
Q. Could you please circle those items.
Mr. McDonald, you have to go right on the screen. You
have to go under the window. Sorry.
And now if you could just click your pen, the side of
your pen, it will erase those two circles.
Mr. McDonald, you've indicated that you remember the
April, 1995 sale at DRMO. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know if it was an auction, or a sealed-bid sale?
A. It was a sealed-bid sale, sir.
Q. Do you remember the date of the sale?
A. The bid opening date was the 20th of April, sir.
Q. Do you remember what the viewing days before the sale were?
A. The three days preceding: 17, 18, 19, sir.
Q. Now, what hours is the DRMO open to the public on viewing
days?
A. From 7:00 in the morning to 3:00 in the afternoon, sir.
Q. I want to show you Government Exhibit 1960. Does that
accurately reflect those areas of the DRMO that were open to
the public on April 18, 1995?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And using your pen, can you indicate the RO2 area, your
William McDonald - Direct
section of the yard, that would have been open to the public.
Now, where would customers go first when they arrived
at DRMO?
A. They would go to the entrance door, sir.
Q. Can you make a mark where that is?
A. Located approximately right here.
Q. And then what would they do?
A. They would go outside. We have a door out that they would
go in to view AO2, sir.
Q. If they were interested in viewing items in the yard area,
what would they do after that point?
A. Come back out of the warehouse, sir, proceed north. We
have a small gate right here and a larger gate for vehicles
moving, and then they could proceed on over to RO2 to view that
property, sir.
Q. Do you know if you worked on Tuesday, April 18, 1995,
Mr. McDonald?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any memory of the April, '95 sale for any
reason?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you remember about it?
A. Well, (1) we had an attached sale from Fort Leavenworth.
We had some 30 items that we were selling for them on that
sale.
William McDonald - Direct
And another thing is this was an extremely small sale
as far as I was concerned because the previous three to four
sales had in excess of 350 to around 400 line items that we
were selling.
The RO2 area that we sold in April had less than 200,
sir.
Q. Has your time at the DRMO been devoted exclusively to
working in the RO area?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in your time out there, have you seen sales of
different sizes, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you gotten to know some of your regular customers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you learned some of the people who buy some of the
different items out there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever, since coming to work at DRMO in 1989, seen
someone stay outside in the yard for longer than 45 minutes?
A. Only one person that I can recall, sir.
Q. And do you remember anything about that person?
A. Big man, 6' 2", 6' 3", heavy-set, was looking at some 10-
hundred-20 tires we had in that area, sir.
Q. Do you remember what he was doing with the tires?
A. He was unstacking the tires, looking at each tire, making a
William McDonald - Direct
note on a notepad, and then he would restack the tires.
Q. Was the man who spent -- how long did that man spend there?
A. Four hours or more, sir.
Q. And was the man who spent four hours at the DRMO yard Terry
Nichols?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where did you work on Tuesday, April 18?
A. I worked the RO area, sir.
Q. And do you remember seeing Mr. Terry Nichols in the RO area
on that morning?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. McDonald, are you saying that Terry Nichols was
not there for any amount of time?
A. No, sir.
Q. If the defendant had been in the yard for, say, 10 minutes,
would you necessarily remember him?
A. No, sir.
Q. If the defendant had been in the yard for a half hour,
would you necessarily remember him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. McDonald, what if the defendant had been in the DRMO
yard for five hours on April 18, from 8 a.m. till 12:50 p.m.?
Would you remember him then?
A. Yes, sir, I would have.
Q. Do you?
William McDonald - Direct
A. No, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. McDonald. My name is Ronald Woods. I'm
one of the lawyers appointed to represent Terry Nichols in this
case.
You related that you recall Mr. Nichols from an
earlier sale. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And did you help load those items when Mr. Nichols
came and picked them up, or did you just sign the release, or
what?
A. I loaded -- I loaded Mr. Nichols on the item that I
indicated before, sir, Item 340.
Q. Okay. And what item was that?
A. That was four pallets of M2 ammo cans.
Q. And did other individuals load the other items that had
been awarded on that contract?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who was that?
A. Harold Robinson loaded some. Robert Hanks loaded some.
Q. Okay. Now, you were shown the diagram 1960. Is that
William McDonald - Cross
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. WOODS: Could we have that back on the board here.
Okay.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, you clicked your pen, and that's clear.
The items that were inside on that auction on
April 19: Would you designate to the jury where those are.
Thank you.
For that sale, which is the April 20 bid sale, the
viewing area was 17th, 18th, and 19th -- viewing time, that is.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many items were on the inside?
A. I would say right around 100, sir.
Q. If the records reflected that 1 through 84 -- the catalogue
lists the items and the number, do they not? If the records
reflected that Items 1 through 84 were on the inside, would you
dispute that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. And do you recall how many items were on the outside
that were for sale?
A. In RO2, sir?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Probably some 85 to 90 items, sir.
Q. Now, RO2 wasn't the only area where you had the outside
William McDonald - Cross
items. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had them in -- is that "S" something?
A. SO2, sir.
Q. Okay. And you had the vehicles over there. Is that
correct?
A. We had some property over there, sir. I don't know exactly
what was in that area.
Q. When you have vehicles for bidding on, is that where
they're kept, in that "S" area?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall -- have you looked at that catalogue for the
sale of that day to see what items were for sale?
A. No, sir.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Do you have that handy?
It's up there on the stand?
May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Excuse me, Mr. McDonald. They inform me that it's up here
in your folder.
I'm going to show you what's been marked and admitted
into evidence as Government's Exhibit No. 1958. Can you tell
from that catalogue, sir, what items were for sale that day in
total?
William McDonald - Cross
A. Sir, we started -- should have started an SO2 at Item 181
and went on down to Item 196.
Q. Okay. So you had, what, 15 items that were over at SO2?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And Items 1 through 84: Were they on the inside
warehouse?
A. I'm sorry, sir.
Q. Yes, sir. The items listed in the catalogue.
A. 1 through 84.
Q. 1 through 190-some-odd. Is that correct?
A. Sir, Items 1 through 83 should be on the inside of the
warehouse. 84 and 85 was withdrawn.
Q. And what items pick up, then, on the outside area?
A. Items 86 through Items 180, sir.
Q. Now, the only way that a person can get in and view those
items on the inside warehouse is to sign in. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, a person can get in the outside area by just walking
through that gate. It's a big area where you can drive
vehicles in. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And people that have been there before are aware that the
outside items are out there. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you've got it fenced off with little ropes and flags to
William McDonald - Cross
show what's available, what's not available. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had over 100 items out there. And can you give the
jury an idea of what type of items you had out there, sir?
A. We had refrigeration units. This is household-type. We
may have had one or two commercial type.
Q. Excuse me for interrupting you. Would it help to refer to
that catalogue just to note type of items available outside?
A. Okay. We had metal shipping containers. We had field
wheel assemblies. We had containers, ammunition containers.
We had tents and liners, final drive assemblies, engines. We
had some scrap items out there, including stainless steel,
radiators, scrap canvas, axles, numerous tires -- several
tires, ice-making machine, scrap copper, compressors, spraying
outfits, household ranges.
Q. Okay. A wide variety of items --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- is that correct?
All of it Army surplus, military surplus items that
you're trying to work back into the public, get some sales
value out of the surplus items. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But at first your job at DRMO is to try to reutilize it,
send it back to the military somewhere to be used before
offering for sale to the public? Is that generally the
William McDonald - Cross
function of DRMO?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But you end up giving sales -- having sales for these
various items. Is that correct?
A. As a final result, sir.
Q. Yes. Now, have you viewed the documents of that day, sir,
April 19, reflecting a sign-in date for Mr. Nichols -- sign-in
time, rather, of 12:50?
A. Did I read that, sir?
Q. Yes. Have you reviewed the documents --
A. No.
Q. -- that the Government has provided to you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are they in that folder, also?
MR. WOODS: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked for identification
as 1956, and it's in evidence.
I'll also ask you to look at 1964.
Now, looking at that sign-in sheet -- and there is a
number up there on the corner again. What was that?
A. 1956, sir.
Q. '56, yes, sir. Do you see a sign-in time for Mr. Nichols
at 12:50? It's that discolored one there that the Government
William McDonald - Cross
has got in there.
A. I see it, sir.
Q. Okay. And is that the sign-in time, 12:50?
A. It appears to be, sir.
Q. All right. And then look at the bidder sheet that I
pointed out in front of you; and it's got a number on the
corner which is?
A. 1964.
Q. 1964. And what is the time stamp, sir, on the top of that?
Well, first let me ask you: When a person submits a bid sheet
there in the bid office, is there a time machine there that
stamps that when it's received?
A. Sir, I don't know this. I have no dealings with this
whatsoever.
Q. You don't work in that bid office there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Can we put this 1960 back on the projector.
Can you point out to the jury there where the bid
office is that a person enters into to submit their bid?
A. Right in there, sir.
Q. And that's after looking at the items, a person then walks
in there with a bid sheet filled out on the bid they want to
submit. Is that correct?
A. There is chairs and tables in there, sir. A person can
take their bid sheet in there and fill it out, yes.
William McDonald - Cross
Q. But it's time-stamped when it's submitted. Is that
correct?
A. Sir, I have no knowledge of this.
Q. All right. Is that a -- that Exhibit No. 1964 -- do you
recognize that as being a DRMO exhibit that comes from that
operation you worked with?
A. This is one of our bid sheets, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. All right. Now, the time stamp says March 18 --
right -- at the top?
A. 18 March '95, sir.
Q. And what time does it give?
A. 12:37, sir.
Q. Okay. And if the records show that the clock is off one
hour, it's behind one hour, what time would that make it, one
hour from 12:37?
A. It would be 11:37, sir.
Q. Well, if it's off -- if it's slow one hour according to the
records, if it says 12:37, would 1:37 be the accurate time?
A. Yes, it should be.
Q. Okay. Now, there is another office right here on the front
of that bid office; is that correct? From the outside as
you're walking up, isn't there an entrance there and an office
there?
A. This, sir -- oh, boy.
Right there, sir, would be our primary entrance. That
William McDonald - Cross
is the main entrance that anyone would normally go to at our
DRMO.
Q. And what do you have available out there for the public
that wants to come and just look at the operation at DRMO?
A. Actually, we only have a small foyer there with three or
four chairs where someone could sit down, and then we have a
receptionist once you go through the next door.
Q. Okay. And what's available in that foyer?
A. Just -- I think we have three or four chairs right now, and
it's just -- it's just a place to sit for a while.
Q. Okay. Okay. How big of an area was your area where you
had all those outside items? Can you give us in just an
estimation of the size of it?
A. Sir, that area right there --
Q. Yes, sir --
A. -- will run approximately 215 feet in length.
Q. Not quite a football field long? Not quite a football
field long?
A. Right, sir.
Q. How wide was it?
A. This right here will go approximately 80 feet, sir.
Q. All right. And within that area, you had most of those
outside items stacked up for viewing and inspection.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then over in your S2 area, you had the vehicles. Can
William McDonald - Cross
you tell from that catalogue whether or not you have vehicles
for sale?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many?
A. We did, sir.
Q. Oh, you did. How many vehicles did you have for sale?
A. I'd have to look again for that, sir, but it wasn't many.
10 vehicles, sir.
Q. All right. So you had approximately how many items then in
RO2 for sale? 100-what?
A. I think we had less than a hundred. We ran items -- 86 is
where this property started, and it would run up to Item 180.
Q. Okay. And some of those are big bulk items; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If you have 400 ammo cans, they're listed as one item?
A. Yes, sir, but if you look at all the "withdrawns" that are
listed in here, like 148, 149, withdrawn -- there were several
items that are withdrawn, and the numbers will not give the
true story of the numbers that are for sale, sir.
Q. Can you tell on there how many are withdrawn?
A. It looks like three, sir.
Q. Three were withdrawn?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. In looking at that bid sheet, which was 1964 --
William McDonald - Cross
A. Okay, sir.
Q. It's a little discolored there. Can you tell how many
items Mr. Nichols bid on?
A. 10.
Q. And out of that 10, can you tell from the numbers on there
how many were outside items?
A. Six.
Q. Are there six, or seven?
A. I'm sorry, sir. Seven.
Q. Okay. Now, as I understand your testimony, somebody can
walk through the big gate that -- gate that you have where
vehicles can drive through. People can walk through that and
look at the outside items first. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. But to get back and look at the inside items that's
in the warehouse, you have to sign in; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. McDonald.
No further questions.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. GOELMAN: Just briefly, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. I'm going to put up the second page of Government's Exhibit
1964, which is the bid sheet that you were talking about with
William McDonald - Redirect
Mr. Woods. There are 10 items on there. Is that right,
Mr. McDonald?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are any of those items something that was located in the
SO2 area on April 18?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which one?
A. 109, 116, 131.
Q. Mr. McDonald, were those located in the RO2 area?
A. I'm sorry, sir?
Oh, oh, I'm sorry. These -- the ones I'm calling off
are the RO2 area, sir. I'm sorry. I misunderstood you.
Q. Are there any items at all on that list that were located
in the SO2 area?
A. No, sir. No.
Q. And how many of those items were located inside?
A. Some 84 items, sir.
Q. Okay. On this list, were the first three items on this bid
sheet inside items?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What happens if somebody enters that front office on a
viewing day where you're talking about three or four chairs?
What do the people in the front office tell them?
A. Explain to them where the items that are for sale are
located, sir, and how to get to that area.
William McDonald - Redirect
Q. Where do they direct them? Do they direct them into the
RO2 area, or do they direct them down to sign in at the AO2
area?
A. They direct them to the AO2 area, sir, to sign in.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you some questions about Government's
Exhibit 1858. That's the sales catalogue.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you're out working in the RO2 area on viewing days,
Mr. McDonald, are you carrying around a big stack of catalogues
to hand out to customers?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where do customers get catalogues?
A. When they sign in, sir, at AO2.
Q. Does that catalogue have a mailing label on it?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: That's all I have, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: Just one question.
THE COURT: Yes. All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. McDonald, the bidder sheet, 1964, that's in front of
you: Those items are listed in a numerical order. Is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And bid prices are submitted for each of those
William McDonald - Recross
items. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you. No further questions.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further. This witness may be
excused, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, Judge. We'll call Carolyn
Marin.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Carolyn Marin affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Carolyn Denise Marin, M-A-R-I-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you live, ma'am?
A. Bad Nauheim, Germany.
Carolyn Marin - Direct
Q. What do you do in Germany?
A. My husband is stationed with the Army.
Q. What does your husband do for the Army?
A. Drives a tank.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes, I have two: a son that's 12 and a daughter that's 6.
Q. How long has your husband been stationed overseas?
A. Since January, '96.
Q. Where was your husband stationed before that?
A. Fort Riley, Kansas.
Q. And was he at Fort Riley, Kansas, in April, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you live at that time?
A. We lived in government housing on Custer Hill on the post.
Q. That's right on post?
A. Yes.
Q. On Fort Riley?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you move into that government housing?
A. January, '95.
Q. In April, 1995, was your house on post fully furnished?
A. No.
Q. And to find furniture and other items, did you go to a sale
at the Fort Riley DRMO?
A. Yes.
Carolyn Marin - Direct
Q. Do you remember what month that was?
A. It was April.
Q. Had you ever -- have you been to the DRMO for any reason
before that?
A. No.
Q. And who went to the DRMO in April, 1995?
A. My husband, me and my daughter.
Q. Do you remember what day of the week it was?
A. I don't remember the day.
Q. How old was your daughter at that time?
A. She was 4.
Q. And did your husband work that day?
A. Yes. He was on his lunch break.
Q. What time was your husband's lunch break?
A. Anywhere from 11 to 11:30 until 1:00.
Q. And what was the plan for how you, your husband, and your
daughter would get to the DRMO on that day?
A. He came from work to our house and picked me up and drove
us there.
Q. What time did your husband pick you up?
A. Shortly after 11:30.
Q. About what time did you arrive at DRMO?
A. Maybe 11:40, quarter till.
Q. I want to show you Government's Exhibit 1961. Do you
recognize that?
Carolyn Marin - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that as DRMO?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you take your light pen and mark where you, your
husband, and your daughter parked?
A. Right here.
No, wait. Right there.
Q. Did you and your husband and your daughter sign in when you
first got to the sale?
A. Actually, no. We went into the office first because we
didn't know what we were doing or where we were supposed to go.
Q. Did the office direct you where to go?
A. Yes.
Q. When you entered that particular door, was there a sign-in
desk there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you sign in?
A. At first, we just started to walk off because we didn't
know we were supposed to sign in, and a man called my husband
back and told him that he needed to sign in.
Q. Did you sign in at that time?
A. Uh-huh. My husband did.
Q. I want to show you Government's Exhibit -- first, can you
mark -- strike that. I want to show you Government's Exhibit
1956 and ask you if you see your husband's name anywhere on
Carolyn Marin - Direct
here?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you circle that, please.
Do you recognize your husband's signature?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he write down a time when he signed in?
A. No.
Q. Are there entries just above and just below your husband's
entry that you -- that do have times in them?
A. Yes.
Q. What are those times?
A. The top one is 11:50. The one directly below it, I can't
read. But the next one says 11:56.
Q. Without regard to the log, what is your memory about
approximately what time you and your husband signed in on
April -- on the day that you went to the DRMO?
A. It would have been shortly before 12.
Q. So is the sign-in sheet at least roughly accurate?
A. Uh-huh. Yes.
Q. What did you see when you signed in? Where was this
sign-in log located?
A. When you walked into the door, there was a table set up to
the right, and there was like paper sitting there. There was a
man and a lady there.
Q. You said there were papers on that table?
Carolyn Marin - Direct
A. Right.
Q. Did you get a chance to determine what those papers were?
A. Yeah. They were like a catalogue of the things that were
in there. It had a description of the things that were there.
Q. And how do you know that those papers were catalogues?
A. Because the man handed it to us.
Q. What did you do once you got your catalogue?
A. I rolled it up in my hand and took off to go look at stuff.
Q. What kind of stuff was there?
A. There was dressers, furniture, big boxes of like old BDUs,
old office equipment.
Q. What are BDUs?
A. The outfit that soldiers wear, battle dress uniform.
Q. Okay. What other kind of stuff did you see?
A. Old typewriters, just pieces of things, junk.
Q. Did you find anything that you were interested in?
A. Yeah. I found a dresser, and I looked at a table -- I mean
a chair and a Foosball table.
Q. How long did you spend inside the warehouse on that day?
A. Oh, maybe about 15 minutes.
Q. And was the entire building available for you to go into
and view items?
A. No.
Q. How much of it was -- was open?
A. There was like just two rows of things, and the whole rest
Carolyn Marin - Direct
of the left side was roped off, closed off.
Q. Was there a portion on the right side that was roped off,
too?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do after leaving the warehouse, after you
spent 15 or 20 minutes there?
A. The man told us there was stuff outside, so we walked
around the side of the building.
Q. I want to show you again 1961. And taking your pen, can
you trace the path that you took when you left the warehouse.
Okay. What did you do when you got to that area?
A. There was a bunch of stuff like tires and lawn mowers and
things we weren't very interested in, so we just kind of walked
very quickly through there.
Q. How much time did you spend there?
A. Maybe a minute or two.
Q. Okay. And why did you spend such a short period of time
there?
A. There was nothing there that we wanted to look at and it
was cold.
Q. How were you dressed?
A. We were dressed warm, but I didn't have on a coat or, you
know, hat and gloves or anything.
Q. Had you noticed the weather earlier when you first arrived
at DRMO?
Carolyn Marin - Direct
A. Yes. It was very cold and windy.
Q. And do you remember asking your husband to do anything
because of that?
A. I asked him to move the truck closer to the door so I
didn't have to walk so far.
Q. How long a walk were you trying to avoid?
A. Maybe half a block.
Q. And did he do that?
A. No.
Q. Where did you go, referring back to the aerial -- where did
you go after spending a minute or two in that area?
A. We walked around the storage shed to the back. There was a
couple rows of cars back there.
Q. Can you mark the screen where the couple rows of cars were?
A. Right -- right there.
Q. Somewhere in between those lines?
A. Yeah.
Q. What kind of cars were there?
A. There was a lot of broken-down cars, you know, missing
parts, with flat tires and stuff. And then our car was sitting
at the very end, and it was in really good shape.
Q. Your car?
A. Yeah. We ended up buying the car.
Q. Okay. Tell me about the car that you later ended up
buying.
Carolyn Marin - Direct
A. It was a little gray Chevette, and it was in really good
condition. So we went over to look at it except that it was
cold. So me and Jeneka got in the driver's door because
they're not locked or anything, so we got in there and sat
there because it was very windy, while my husband looked at the
engine.
Q. Jeneka is your daughter's name?
A. Yes.
Q. Where in the Chevette did you and Jeneka sit?
A. In the driver's seat.
Q. How long did you spend there?
A. Just a couple of minutes.
Q. And what were you doing at that time?
A. Just sitting there.
Q. Did you eventually leave the car and --
A. Yeah. My husband asked me to come look at the engine.
Q. And do you know something about cars?
A. A little bit. We've owned a lot of junkers, so we've had
to work on them ourselves.
Q. What happened when you looked at the engine?
A. We just looked at it. It was in really good shape except
there was a fan that had come off and it was just kind of
sitting in there propped up against the engine.
Q. How long did you spend checking out the Chevette?
A. Maybe 10 minutes. 10 or 15 minutes.
Carolyn Marin - Direct
Q. And what did you do at that time?
A. Then we went back inside.
Q. Do you remember the trip from where the cars were located
back into the building?
A. Yeah. It was very cold and we were walking really fast, so
my husband had to pick Jeneka up to carry her.
Q. And why is that?
A. Because we were walking fast and she couldn't keep up.
Q. Do you remember where in relation to your husband you
walked during that journey?
A. Right -- yeah. Right behind him.
Q. Why were you doing that?
A. To block the wind.
Q. Did that work?
A. No.
Q. And how do you remember that?
A. My nose was running, my eyes were watering, my hair was
whipping around my face. It was very, very windy.
Q. Did you end up submitting a bid on any of the items that
you saw that day?
A. Yes. The dresser and the car and the Foosball table.
Q. Were you successful on any item?
A. We got the car and the dresser.
Q. How much was the car?
A. $150.
Carolyn Marin - Direct
Q. How much was the dresser?
A. $100.
Q. I want to show you what's already been received in
evidence, Government's Exhibit 1972. Do you recognize the
writing on the front of that document?
A. Yes. All the writing is mine except the signature is my
husband's.
Q. Is that the signature at the bottom left there, Ms. Marin?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you see both the dresser and the car that you bid
on listed in this list of items?
A. Yes.
Q. And I want to turn your attention to -- back to the first
page to a time stamp that appears in the upper left-hand
corner. Do you see what that says? Can you read it off there?
A. Yeah. It says 18 March '95, 11:27.
Q. Were you at the DRMO on March 18, 1995?
A. No.
Q. Do you know approximately when you submitted this bid?
A. It was 18 April.
Q. About what time?
A. Probably about 12:30ish.
Q. So about a month and hour after the time stamp indicates?
A. Right.
Q. You mentioned that you were successful on bidding on both
Carolyn Marin - Direct
the car and a dresser. How did you find out that you were the
high bidder on those items?
A. We got a thing in the mail.
Q. What kind of thing?
A. A statement saying that we had won the bid on these things.
Q. Would you look on your screen at Government's Exhibit 1973,
which is not yet in evidence, I don't think.
Can you look down on your screen?
A. There is nothing there.
Q. What about now?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It's the paper we got saying that we had gotten the car and
the dresser.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 1973, your
Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Does that reflect that you and your husband were successful
on any of your bids?
A. Yes.
Q. Which ones?
Carolyn Marin - Direct
A. The chest of drawers and the Chevy sedan.
Q. And that's the Chevette?
A. Right.
Q. What did you do when you got that Chevette?
A. We took it home and parked it for a while, and then we
eventually worked on it and got it running.
Q. Have you ever bought another vehicle at a DRMO sale?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever bought another dresser?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever bought anything at any other DRMO sale except
for the one in April of 1995?
A. No.
Q. I want to show you what's already been -- do you see what
date the sign-in log where you identified your husband's name
is?
A. 4-18-95.
Q. And is that consistent with your memory of when you went to
see these items at the DRMO?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. How long total did you spend at the DRMO on April 18, 1995?
A. Maybe an hour at the most.
Q. And was that enough time to look at everything that you
were interested in?
A. Yes.
Carolyn Marin - Direct
Q. Was it enough time to make a number of bids and actually to
buy a car?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any other customers at the DRMO while you were
there?
A. I saw an elderly black man outside, the man and the woman
that were at the table. There was an older gentleman in there,
and outside there was a worker on like a forklift type of
tractor.
Q. After the Oklahoma City bombing, Ms. Marin, did you follow
the investigation in the media at all?
A. A little bit.
Q. And do you remember seeing pictures of Terry Nichols in the
media at sometime after the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to ask you if you would to take a look at
Mr. Nichols, who is sitting at counsel table there.
Did you see Mr. Nichols at the DRMO on April 18, 1995?
A. No.
Q. And does this mean that you can say with certainty that he
wasn't there at any point in time?
A. No.
Q. I want to ask you a little more specifically about the
different areas of the DRMO that you were in at different
times.
Carolyn Marin - Direct
Can you again mark where you bought the Chevette?
A. Well, right in there somewhere.
Q. And when you were looking at the different vehicles up
there, did you see anyone there just kind of standing there in
the -- in that area of the yard?
A. No. There was a worker over to the right, but he was on a
tractor.
Q. After leaving that area of the yard, did you go into the
side of the building where there is a window, to submit bids?
A. Yes.
Q. And can you mark that on this particular diagram?
And when you went in there, did you see any customers
just kind of sitting down there?
A. No. There was no one in there at all.
Q. When you walked back from the yard to the warehouse, did
you walk in front of the warehouse at all?
A. Yes.
Q. And why did you do that?
A. There was no one in the bid office, so we had to go into
the front office, and also because I took Jeneka to the
restroom there.
Q. Can you mark the location where you went in the front
office.
About what time did you go in there?
A. Maybe 12:30, 12:35.
Carolyn Marin - Direct
Q. And about 12:30, 12:35, on April 18, 1995, did you see
Terry Nichols standing in front of the warehouse?
A. No.
Q. Did you see anyone just kind of standing in front of the
warehouse waiting for a buddy to pick him up?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods?
MR. WOODS: May we leave that particular item?
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Marin. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of
the lawyers appointed by the judge to help Terry Nichols in
this case.
You told the jury that when you first got to DRMO that
you went into that office on the corner; that you later went in
to take your daughter to the bathroom. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what did you notice inside that office when you
were in there?
A. It was a very small room, and there was a counter that was
like L-shaped.
Q. Okay. Did you notice any pamphlets around explaining DRMO
or anything like that?
Carolyn Marin - Cross
A. I don't remember.
Q. Okay. And you were directed to go -- if you wanted to look
at the items inside -- you were directed to go down to the
building to another entrance. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's where you actually signed in for the first time.
A. Right.
Q. Your husband signed in in your presence. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you looked at the items that were in the inside of the
warehouse.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall how many items were for sale total when you
were at that sale, that sealed bid?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So nothing that you were paying particular attention
to the number of items. Correct?
A. No.
Q. You were interested in furniture to furnish your house?
A. Yes.
Q. And they had a few items on the inside. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's what you looked at is a chest of drawers, a
Foosball machine?
A. Right. We walked around the whole area, but I was
Carolyn Marin - Cross
concentrating on the furniture.
Q. Looking for furniture; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Then when you went outside and entered into the outside
area, you didn't have to sign in to get into that outside area,
did you?
A. No.
Q. In fact, it was a big, open gate that vehicles can drive
through. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall how many items were available for viewing
and inspection on that outside area?
A. There was just like a couple of rows. It wasn't a very big
area.
Q. Do you recall the number of items that were there?
A. No.
Q. And you mentioned that you saw several things that you
weren't interested in, tires and lawn mowers and things like
that, and so you didn't spend any time inspecting those. Is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were you looking for anything in particular when you went
out there?
A. No. We didn't even know what was out there. We just knew
there was more stuff.
Carolyn Marin - Cross
Q. More stuff?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Stuff that would stand the weather?
A. Yes.
Q. And you found a car that you were interested in.
A. Yes.
Q. And bought it for 150?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. But you were not inspecting those items carefully
for buying them and then reselling them, all the items that
were there lined up in rows. Is that correct?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And it took you approximately one hour to look at
the items in total. Is that correct?
A. Yeah. The whole --
MR. WOODS: Thank you. No further questions, your
Honor.
MR. GOELMAN: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: I take we're excusing the witness.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. You're excused. You may step down.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. We'll call FBI Agent --
Special Agent, excuse me -- Patrick Daly.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Patrick Daly affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Patrick J. Daly, D-A-L-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Agent Daly. Can you tell the jury where you
work.
A. I work in FBI office in Chicago, Illinois.
Q. Are you a special agent?
A. Yes. I'm a supervisory special agent there.
Q. How long have you been an agent with the FBI?
A. It will be 15 years next month.
Q. Did you have any prior law enforcement experience before
you joined the FBI?
A. Yes. I was a police officer in Oak Park, Illinois, for six
years.
Q. And then did you join the Bureau?
A. Yes, I did.
Patrick Daly - Direct
Q. Can you tell us what your current assignment is.
A. I supervise an FBI Task Force of FBI agents and police
officers investigating organized crime.
Q. And you do that in Chicago?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been assigned to the field division in
Chicago?
A. Since probably 3 1/2 years.
Q. So would that mean yo