The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Wednesday, November 26, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 93)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:30 p.m., on the 26th day of November,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, and
AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S. Attorney General,
1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver, Colorado, 80294,
appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys
at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado,
80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:30 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, please, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 93B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
(Jury in at 1:36 p.m.)
THE COURT: Hello, members of the jury. We apologize
for the delay. I had one of these little private talks with
the lawyers about scheduling, so we're ready for the next
witness.
MR. MACKEY: We are. Regina Bonny, please.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand.
(Regina Bonny affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Regina Bonny, B-O-N-N-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed, please.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Ms. Bonny, where do you live?
A. In Oklahoma City.
Q. How long have you lived in Oklahoma City?
A. All my life.
Q. Where do you work?
A. For the Midwest City Police Department.
Q. Where is the Mid -- where is Midwest City located?
Regina Bonny - Direct
A. It's approximately 10 miles east from Oklahoma City.
Q. Is Midwest City essentially a suburb of Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been working for the Midwest City Police
Department?
A. A little over 12 years.
Q. And what do you do for them?
A. I work the narcotic investigations.
Q. How long have you been working narcotics investigations?
A. Approximately 10 years.
Q. Did there ever come a time when you were assigned to a
federal narcotics task force?
A. Yes.
Q. When were you assigned to that?
A. I was assigned in February of 1993 to the Drug Enforcement
Administration.
Q. And where was that federal task force, that DEA task force
located in April of 1995?
A. The Alfred P. Murrah Building.
Q. What floor of the Murrah Building?
A. The ninth floor.
MR. MEARNS: May I have the ninth floor of Exhibit
952, please.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recognize this diagram, Ms. Bonny?
Regina Bonny - Direct
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you indicate with that electric pen that you have up
on the witness stand -- not that one. There should be one
that's connected to a wire. Okay. If you could reach down
underneath the screen and just draw a large circle around the
office space where the DEA task force was located in April of
1995.
A. There was task force in both ends of DEA. We were kind of
scattered.
Q. Okay. And if you could clear -- during the time that you
were assigned to this task force, did you get to know the
different people who were employed by the DEA or assigned to
that task force?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you get to know where they -- where their desks or
offices were located?
A. Yes.
Q. If you could clear that pen and begin first with the DEA
office space on the left and take us through those offices and
just tell us who was assigned in those particular locations in
April of 1995.
A. Okay. Right in here, Rona set (sic) here and Michelle set
here.
Q. What are Rona and Michelle's last names?
A. Michelle's last name was Lehman. Ms. Rona Chafey.
Regina Bonny - Direct
Q. Okay.
A. Carrol Fields sat right there.
Q. Okay. If you could continue through the office space.
A. Okay. Don Webb sat in here, office by hisself (sic).
Dave Schickendanz set here.
Phil Long set here.
Judy Hoke sat next to Phil Long.
Carrie Lenz set here.
Ken McCullough.
Joe Wyzinski.
Mike Bakios.
Rob Ryan sat over here.
Q. And were there DEA employees also assigned to that DEA
office space on the right of this chart?
A. Yes.
Q. And could you tell us who -- who had offices or desks
assigned in that area of the ninth floor.
A. Yes. My desk was right -- right here.
Frank Marino's was right in here.
Kevin Waters was right here.
Steve Day was in here.
Eddie Joe Dillard was in here.
And V. Underwood was in here.
Q. Was anyone assigned to that office space behind that?
A. No.
Regina Bonny - Direct
Q. In April of 1995, did the DEA also occupy space on the
seventh floor of the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: If we could have the seventh floor --
floor of Exhibit 952, please.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Could you clear the pen for us, Ms. Bonny.
Could you tell us who then was assigned to that green
DEA office space that we see in the upper right-hand corner.
A. Yes. Donetta -- I can't remember Donetta's last name. My
mind just went blank.
Dave Fry.
Betty Robins.
There was two others. I can't remember their names.
THE COURT: Perhaps you can suggest some names and see
if she can --
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Do you recall that there were five people assigned in that
space?
A. Yes.
Q. What were those people responsible for? What kind of
investigations?
A. They were responsible for the pharmaceutical, enforcing
pharmaceutical laws.
Q. Those are -- do you use the term "diversion agents" for
Regina Bonny - Direct
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a lot of interaction with the diversion agents
with DEA?
A. No.
Q. And is that how you're not necessarily familiar with all of
the people that were necessarily assigned in that space?
A. Right.
Q. I want to direct your attention now to Wednesday, April 19,
1995. Were you working that day, Ms. Bonny?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did you get to work that morning?
A. It was around -- between 8 and 8:15 a.m.
Q. What did you do after you arrived at work?
A. I dropped my briefcase and my purse off at my office. I
walked down to the main office, got my coffee, talked with the
girls a little bit.
Q. Who did you see that morning?
A. I saw Rona, Carrie, Carrol, and Shelly, and Dave
Schickendanz.
Q. How long did you have the conversation with the women that
you've identified?
A. It was for quite a while. I stayed longer than I normally
did.
Q. Where did you go after you had that conversation?
Regina Bonny - Direct
A. I walked back down to my office and started typing a
report.
Q. And what time -- approximately what time did you get back
to your office?
A. It was five or ten minutes I had been down there, and
that's when I heard the explosion.
Q. So you were back in your office for about five or ten
minutes before the explosion?
A. Right.
Q. Tell us about what happened when you experienced the
explosion.
A. I was sitting down, typing. The first thing that happened
was the lights went out. My computer went off. I stood up. I
heard the explosion. The last thing I remember seeing was a
coat rack. The next thing I knew, I was down on my knees, and
my arms were above my head, and I was -- there was stuff on top
of me.
Q. Were you knocked -- excuse me. Were you knocked
unconscious for a short period of time?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you see when you regained consciousness?
A. A lot of rubble that was on top of me and in front of me,
so I just started digging my way out.
Q. What did you do?
A. I got my hands free and used my hands to pull things off of
Regina Bonny - Direct
me.
Q. How long did that take?
A. It took a little while. I -- I don't know how much time.
Q. What did you do next?
A. After I was able to get the stuff off of me, I crawled
underneath the desk and was able to find a place where I could
stand up. I looked around. I knew -- when I looked around, I
noticed that -- I knew then that a bomb had exploded just by
the destruction.
Q. So what did you do?
A. I instantly started hollering to see if anybody could hear
me, and then I heard the two ATF agents hollering for help.
Q. So what did you do?
A. I went to where they were hollering at. The first agent I
came to, he was covered in rubble.
Q. Who was that? Do you recall seeing Mr. Staggs that
morning?
A. Yes. It wasn't Skaggs (sic). It was Vernon, Vernon
Buster.
Q. What did you do when you saw Mr. Buster?
A. I started pulling the rubble off of him. I got the rubble
off of him. And there was a piece of metal in his back, and he
told me he couldn't get up. So I pulled the metal out of his
back and then he got up. I looked him over to make sure that
he was okay as far as bleeding real bad, and he was okay then.
Regina Bonny - Direct
And then I went to Jim Skaggs (sic).
Q. What did you do at that point?
A. He was sitting down. And he had a very bad head injury. I
got him to stand up. I told him I was going to take his shirt
off and -- and put it around his head. I unbuttoned his shirt
and I stuffed part of the shirt into the hole of his head and
wrapped it around his head, and I told him to hold his shirt
tight against his head. And then I told them both that we
needed to get out of the building. It took us a while to find
a stairway. When we found it, I took them both outside. I
asked some people out there to get them medical help. And then
I saw Dave Schickendanz. I asked him where the girls were at,
and he told me they were still up in the building. So I go
back up in the building to get the girls out.
Q. What did you see when you got back into the building?
A. I was running up the stairs, and there was a man on the
stairway who was having problems getting down the stairways. I
asked him if he needed help, and he told me yes. I started
helping him down, and somebody come up from behind me and they
said that they would take him down, and I said okay.
Q. So what did you do next?
A. I continued going up the stairs to the ninth floor. And I
got to our office, and the DEA office was not there.
Q. Did you speak to or have a conversation with anybody who
was on the ninth floor at that time?
Regina Bonny - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Did you speak to an ATF agent by the name of Luke Franey?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. At that point, did you then exit the building for the last
time?
A. I went on different floors hunting for people. And then
I -- I exited and I went hunting for help. And found my
husband in the intersection, and my husband took me to the
doctors at that point.
Q. How many employees of the Drug Enforcement Administration
were killed in the explosion on April 19th?
A. Five.
Q. And did you know all of those people?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, may Agent Tongate display
Government Exhibit 1082?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Subject to our discussion, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes. Same position.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Ms. Bonny, the first person depicted in the upper left is
Shelly Bland; is that correct?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. What was Ms. Bland's position with the DEA?
A. She typed the agents' and the task force officers' reports,
Regina Bonny - Direct
and she was learning how to do asset forfeiture.
Q. How long had she been employed by the DEA?
A. Approximately one year.
Q. The next woman over to the right of that is Rona Chafey.
How long had she been employed by the DEA?
A. A little over a year.
Q. And what did she do?
A. She typed task force officers' reports and agents' reports.
Q. The next woman is Carrol Fields. What was her position
with the DEA?
A. She was the office manager. She handled everything.
Q. And as of April 19th, 1995, how long had Ms. Fields been
working for the DEA?
A. 30 years.
Q. On the second row, the first -- the woman pictured there is
Carrie Lenz; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did Ms. Lenz do for the DEA?
A. She did asset forfeiture.
Q. And how long had she been working for the DEA?
A. For approximately -- it was three or four years.
Q. And the fifth person pictured on the chart is Agent Ken
McCullough; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he was, in fact, a DEA agent?
Regina Bonny - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. How long had Agent McCullough been working for the DEA?
A. Approximately three or four years.
Q. And on April 19th, 1995, was Agent McCullough a federal law
enforcement officer engaged in the performance of his official
duties?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to coming to court this afternoon, Ms. Bonny, did you
put the names of these five individuals on a floor plan of the
ninth floor of the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, that is -- we've identified
that as Government Exhibit 952I.
THE COURT: All right. Same position with respect to
that?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar, do you have some questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, ma'am.
A. Hello.
Q. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the lawyers that
Chief Judge Russell appointed in the case way back in May of
1995.
Regina Bonny - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. I wonder, could you -- can you answer just a couple of
questions?
A. Sure.
Q. Okay. The DEA, that's called -- that's the Drug
Enforcement Administration; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And their law enforcement responsibilities include
detecting and investigating and helping to prosecute people
that are using illegal drugs; right? Is that one of the things
they do?
A. That are using -- that are distributing drugs.
Q. Distributing drugs. Right. That's -- I mean, they go
after drug dealers; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then there was the particular thing you were working
on. Was that the diversion program? Were you working in the
diversion program?
A. No.
Q. Oh, but other people in the office were doing that?
A. The people that was on the seventh floor --
Q. Okay.
A. -- was working on diversion.
Q. That means diverting things out of the regular
pharmaceutical use for illegal sale; is that right?
Regina Bonny - Cross
A. I couldn't tell you their responsibilities. I didn't work
with them.
Q. All right. You worked with the agents that were going
after the illegal drugs, the street drugs; is that what you
were doing?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about
your going up and down those stairs --
A. Okay.
Q. -- if that's okay.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you see -- was there -- there was a lot of debris and
rubble; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And was there water dripping down that you could see? I
mean, did it look like water pipes were broken or anything like
that?
A. Not where I was at.
Q. Okay. And was the -- were the ceiling -- did they have
those -- the suspended ceilings, you know, with the ceiling
tiles, in the --
A. They did have.
Q. -- in those floors? And those were coming down; right?
A. Yeah. Those were gone.
Q. That was a part of the debris that was in there; correct?
Regina Bonny - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And things that were in the office were broken up and just
hurled around by the force of the explosion; is that what you
saw?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Okay. Thank you very much. I have
nothing further. Thank you for answering my questions.
MR. MEARNS: She may be excused, your Honor.
THE COURT: I take it that's agreed.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, of course.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: FBI Agent Donald Sachtleben.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Donald Sachtleben affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Donald Sachtleben, spelled
S-A-C-H-T-L-E-B-E-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Sachtleben, you're an agent with the FBI; is that
right?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. How long have you been an agent?
A. Just over 14 years now.
Q. And did you attend undergraduate university at
Northwestern?
A. Yes. I received a bachelor's degree from Northwestern.
Q. And where did you attend law school?
A. Yes, I did. De Paul University.
Q. Now, where were you assigned back in April of 1995?
A. At that time, I was assigned to the San Francisco field
office.
Q. And after the bombing on April 19th, 1995, were you sent to
Oklahoma City?
A. Yes. I traveled to Oklahoma City that same day, arriving
about 1:00 in the morning on the 20th.
Q. So I take it you didn't go to the crime scene on
April 19th?
A. No. I called in and then went to a hotel.
Q. Okay. That morning on April 20th, were you assigned to be
a team leader?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What was the number of your team?
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
A. Team No. 5.
Q. And can we call you the "parking lot guy"?
A. I think so.
Q. Were you in charge of the parking lot at the crime scene
across from the Murrah Building?
A. Yes. Yes. My -- the parameter or area that my team was
assigned to was, in fact, the parking lot across from the
building, as well as the Athenian Building next to it.
Q. And because of the nature of the damage to that area, did
you and your team stay in that one area, and was that assigned
a separate grid area?
A. Yes. We designated that as Grid No. 5, and my team stayed
there pretty much the whole time that I was at the scene.
Q. When did you and your team begin examining evidence in the
parking lot across from the Murrah Building?
A. Approximately midday on the 20th.
Q. I said "examining." Maybe I'm wrong. Or collecting
evidence, would that be --
A. Looking at the scene and beginning to collect, yes.
Q. Can you tell us first what you saw when you looked at the
parking lot that first day.
A. Well, on the morning of the 20th, when I first walked
through the parking lot, I saw a good number of cars in that
parking lot that had damage to them. I saw a good deal of
debris scattered around the cars. Some of the debris appeared
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
to me to have been from the building; that is, I could see
window frames and pieces of rubble. And that pretty much
covered the -- the surface of the parking lot.
Q. Okay. How did you first conduct your search of the parking
lot area?
A. The first thing I did was to designate from my team several
individuals to photograph the entire parking lot. In addition
to that, I assigned some of the team members to sweep out an
area in the northeast corner of the parking lot that we could
then use as a -- a collection point, administrative point for
the team.
Q. Okay. And did you keep track of the cars that were in the
parking lot?
A. Yes. I did also -- while the photographers were working, I
assigned several people to go around and number each car and,
while they were doing that, to collect information on license
plate, the vehicle identification number, that sort of thing.
Q. Now, during that time that you and your fellow teammates
were in the parking lot, did you actually seize some evidence?
A. On the 20th, yes, we did -- we did seize some evidence on
the 20th.
Q. And did you continue to do that in the days following the
bombing?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Before we get to some of the evidence you seized, could I
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
show you a few pictures of the parking lot so you can orient
the jury.
A. Okay.
Q. I'm going to show you what is not yet in evidence marked
Defendant's Exhibit 1666. Do you recognize that picture?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And I don't know if you can see it here, but up in
that corner, do you see these -- some personnel walking along
there?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that help you recognize this picture?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. How does it help you recognize the picture?
A. Well, the -- I believe from -- it's a little fuzzy image
here, but I believe that that is our team arriving at the scene
or -- or at the scene, rather, that day, the 20th.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Defendant's
Exhibit 1666.
MR. TIGAR: That's D1666, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: D1666, sorry.
THE COURT: All right. So you don't have any
objection to it?
MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor. This is one I've been
waiting for.
THE COURT: All right. D1666 received.
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
MS. WILKINSON: May we exhibit it, please?
THE COURT: Yes. Surely.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, Mr. Sachtleben, does this show the entire parking lot?
A. No. This shows perhaps the northeast quadrant of the
parking lot.
Q. Okay. Let me see if I can take it back a little bit so we
can show the entire picture first. Now, let's orient the jury
if we could.
A. Okay.
Q. Down here, this vehicle right here, do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And where was that located in the parking lot in -- in
relation to the Murrah Building?
A. That is the closest to the Murrah Building of the parking
lot. The parking lot -- what you're pointing at there, that
would be the south edge of the parking lot for -- perhaps for
convenience's sake -- we used to refer to that as the front of
the parking lot, meaning that it faced the Murrah Building.
Q. So is 5th Street right there between the --
A. Yes.
Q. -- vehicle we're pointing to and the Murrah Building?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. So if you were in a portion of the Murrah Building, would
you be looking out on the parking lot the direction of this
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
photograph?
A. Yes. This photograph was taken from a crane that was in
between the parking lot and the Murrah Building.
Q. Okay. And that's why we're getting this angle zooming down
on the parking lot?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, back here, before this was exhibited to
the jury, you were telling them that you recognized -- or you
thought you recognized them; is that right? Some of this
personnel?
A. Yeah. It's a little difficult to see here on the screen;
but when I saw this photograph earlier in hard copy, I believed
I recognized them.
Q. All right. Now, down here, do you see where I'm going with
my pen? This area. Tell the jury what area that is.
A. That is the northeast corner of the parking lot. That is
the area that we swept out when we first began looking for
evidence in the parking lot.
Q. Now, why did you sweep out that area?
A. Well, I felt it was important that the team have a place
where they could meet, gather their equipment, store any
equipment at the scene. And to do that, it was obviously
important to clear out any evidence that might have been
located in that area first.
Q. Now, let's move this picture a little if we can. But do
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
you recognize what this is right here?
A. Yes. That's a tree.
Q. All right. And is that somewhere in the parking lot?
A. Yes. It's in the -- sort of the center of the parking lot.
Perhaps a little bit to the northern portion of the parking
lot.
Q. And can we use that as a point of reference when we look
through these other photographs of the parking lot?
A. We could, yes.
Q. Okay. Now, let's go back down here to these vehicles here.
Did you see some vehicles that had been damaged by some sort of
fire?
A. Yes. Some of the vehicles exhibited charring that I would
have associated with a fire.
Q. All right. And did you see other types of damage to
certain vehicles?
A. Yes. I observed what I believed to be some significant
blast-wave damage to the vehicles.
Q. Okay. And now let's look back here. From reviewing just
this photograph, can you tell, were all the vehicles on this
portion of the parking lot damaged by fire?
A. No. They were not.
Q. Let me see if I can give you a picture of the other portion
of the parking lot. This hasn't been exhibited yet, but it's
defense -- D1665.
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
MS. WILKINSON: I'd move for its admission, if there's
no objection.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: D1665 received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, does this show the other side of the parking lot?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Okay. And here, we are at the tree; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And so over this way in the photograph, we're looking to
the right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, can you orient the jury again down here.
What are we looking at? Excuse me. Right down here, what are
we looking at?
A. Well, this again is the -- what I would call the front of
the parking lot, meaning the 5th Street side closest to the
Murrah Building. And you see there a portion of the sidewalk.
Q. Okay. I want to focus in, if I can. In this portion here,
do you see this area right there?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what happened in that area?
A. That was an area that the fire department was using on the
20th when I arrived, and it appeared to me as if some of the
material on the ground had been pushed back by the fire
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
department personnel there.
Q. And were -- at that point when you saw it, was the fire
department using that to put out fires or as part of the rescue
mission?
A. It appeared to me as part of the rescue mission. There
were no fires at that time.
Q. Okay. Now, I don't think you can see it in that
photograph, but I'm going to show you another one that's closer
up. Do you see this little item there? I don't know if you
can see it on your screen. It appears to be a box.
A. I see an item there.
Q. Okay.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, before we go to the other photograph that shows that,
tell the jury what this building is right back here.
A. That is a portion of the Athenian Building.
Q. All right. And this building back here?
A. That is the Journal Record Building.
Q. All right. Now, if we go down to this corner area that I'm
drawing out from this doorway basically, what did -- how would
you describe this portion of the parking lot?
A. I would call that the northwest corner of the parking lot.
Q. Okay. And in that northwest corner of the parking lot, did
you see much damage due to burning of vehicles?
A. Not that much. I believe one or two vehicles back there
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
had exhibited fire.
Q. Okay. Now, let me show you --
MS. WILKINSON: I move for its admission, Defense
1662.
MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry, your Honor. D1662.
MS. WILKINSON: Excuse me.
MR. TIGAR: I didn't hear what she said. If counsel
is going to put in all of the ones that we were talking about
yesterday --
MS. WILKINSON: I'm only going to use 1662 and 1664,
but we have no objection to the admission of the remainder of
the 1660 series.
MR. TIGAR: All right.
THE COURT: And what do they consist of?
MS. WILKINSON: I believe the other ones are 1661,
1663, and 1667.
MR. TIGAR: We should have 1661 through 1667 with a D
in front of each one.
MS. WILKINSON: That's fine, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. They are received, D1661
through D1667. Okay.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay. Now, Agent Sachtleben, let me see if I can zoom --
there we go. So we get the tree again.
A. All right.
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
Q. Is that the portion of the tree right here?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And do you see this barrel right here?
A. Yes, I see a white plastic bucket there.
Q. And do you see that box?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you read what that box says?
A. I -- it's kind of fuzzy here, but I believe it says
"bleach."
Q. And do you know why that bleach and barrel were there?
A. Well, I observed the -- the fire department using them in
what appeared to be some decontamination -- excuse me --
decontamination of their boots, clothing, and other gear.
Q. Let me show you 1664. What angle are we looking at when we
look at 1664?
A. We're looking pretty much due west along 5th with the
Athenian Building in the background there.
Q. All right. For those of us that aren't very good with
north, south, east and west, can you orient us to the street
and the Murrah Building?
A. Yes. The Murrah Building is to our left in this
photograph. And 5th Street runs, again, along the left side of
the photograph.
Q. Why don't you take that black pen there attached to the
wire and draw on the screen and show the jury, if that would be
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
easier.
A. All right. The Murrah Building would be right here. And
this is the direction in which 5th Street runs.
Q. So for purposes of your search, would this be called the
front of the parking lot?
A. That is what we called it, yes.
Q. Okay. Now, in these photographs we've just looked at --
and let me put 1665 back up, and you can just press the side of
your pen. There are lots of vehicles; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you process all the vehicles that were in this
parking lot?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do with the vehicles after they were
processed?
A. I released them to the custody of the Oklahoma City Police
Department.
Q. And before you did that, did you recover some metal
fragments from some of those vehicles or around the area?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, if I could have the
witness step down to identify a piece.
THE COURT: You may, yes. You may step down.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay. I want you to take a look at 743. Do you recognize
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And this is one portion of 743; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is this another portion right here? Can you tell?
A. Yes. They are connected. They are connected there; and
then this piece here, this narrow piece of metal is also a part
of it.
Q. And did you recover Government's 743?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where was -- if you could turn and face the jury. Where
was 743 recovered?
A. This was recovered from a Chevrolet van that was parked in
the front of the parking lot, and it was actually embedded in
the Chevrolet van.
Q. On what day did you retrieve it from the Chevrolet van?
A. That would have been April 24th.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd move for the
admission of 743.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. You may.
MR. TIGAR: What's the most convenient way? Should I
just stand beside the agent?
THE COURT: I think it's easier.
MR. TIGAR: It will be very brief. Yes.
Donald Sachtleben - Voir Dire
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello, Agent. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one of the
lawyers helping Terry Nichols.
Is this what we're looking at, this bent piece of
metal?
A. Well, we're looking at this piece of metal which connects
then to this piece of metal, and then this piece of metal was
originally attached to it. But since the -- its recovery, it's
come apart.
Q. All right. And this was in that Chevrolet van that was at
the front of the parking lot that you identified, that white
van?
A. Yes.
Q. That -- that one?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, when you saw it, was it -- did it have rubble
on it?
A. No. Not -- not really.
Q. It was in pretty much this condition?
A. Pretty much. I couldn't see all of it, obviously. It was
in the van.
Q. Had it been -- what, it had been propelled somehow into the
van?
A. Looked that way to me, yes.
Donald Sachtleben - Voir Dire
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 743 received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Sachtleben, I'm not sure the jury can see what's
attached to this. This is a portion of frame rail or some
portion of some rail; right?
A. This -- you're talking about this piece?
Q. No. This piece. But behind it, is there something else
attached?
A. Yes. That, I've come to know as the steering assembly.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. Personal
knowledge?
MS. WILKINSON: Just what it appears to be for
purposes of description.
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: The jury can't see it, and I don't
think I can lift it up.
THE COURT: I understand. But don't rely on what
somebody else told you it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Right. We'll have another witness
state what it is.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. But it appeared to you to be a steering wheel?
A. It appeared to me to be a portion of the steering assembly.
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
Q. This whole thing was inside that van?
A. Yes. That entire object.
Q. If you can take your seat for a minute -- actually, you can
stand right here and I'll get the pictures.
Agent Sachtleben, before coming to court today, did
you review some photographs, Government's Exhibit 745 and 744?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And do those show this piece before you removed it from the
van?
A. Yes, they do.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's
Exhibit 744 and 745.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Agent, looking here at 745 --
A. Yes.
Q. -- you recovered this thing here, 743, on the 24th; is that
right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Well, when you recovered it, was there all this black smoke
in there?
A. No.
Q. No. So this picture was taken when?
A. Sometime prior to my arrival.
Q. Right. And by the time you got there on the 20th, all the
Donald Sachtleben - Voir Dire
fires were out; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. But other than the thick, black smoke and the flames that
are depicted here, it's the same scene?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. All right.
MR. TIGAR: No objection on that one.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, this is 744; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. The picture. Now, is this a picture that was taken under
your direction?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And did you take a picture -- was your purpose to take a
picture of this Item 743 in place before you recovered it?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that the practice of your team, to take a picture
of these items before they were recovered?
A. In some instances, yes.
Q. All right. And you were the one that directed this be
taken?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: No objection on that one, either.
THE COURT: 744, 745 received. May be shown.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Sachtleben, I think it's just easier if we just stand
right here. I'll hold it up. This is 745; correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Tell the jury what they are looking at.
A. We're looking into the parking lot, so the orientation here
would be from the general vicinity of the Murrah Building into
the parking lot, the northerly direction, if you will. And you
can see here this Chevrolet van and just these little portions
of these "leaves," I guess you can call them, right here.
Q. And you told Mr. Tigar that you had a picture taken before
you retrieved this item from the van; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And this is 744. What does this show?
A. This is looking back toward the Murrah Building taken from
the parking lot, and we're looking here into the Chevy van.
And you can generally see how the item was embedded into the
front of the van.
Q. And I take it you weren't able to just pull this piece out
of the van?
A. No. It took us a little bit of time. We had to pretty
much cut away the entire front portion of this van and
basically peel it out of there.
Q. I'm going to show you another piece of evidence.
I can't see the -- maybe you can help me out here. I
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
don't see the Government exhibit sticker. It should be there.
A. 742.
Q. Do you recognize 742?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you retrieve that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When did you retrieve that?
A. That was retrieved on April 23d.
Q. And where did you retrieve it?
A. From the front portion of the parking lot on the ground in
between some of the cars.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer 742.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. So this was -- this was lying on the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it covered with any of this rubble or did it have
any of this rubble over any part of it at the time you
recovered it?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Did you take a picture of it in place before you recovered
it?
A. I don't recall doing that, no.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 742 is received.
Donald Sachtleben - Direct
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Sachtleben, maybe you can help me. I think there
might be a little room. If you can put that on the corner of
the table so the jury can see it.
A. Certainly.
Q. And what does this appear to be to you?
A. It appears to be a -- a large, heavy-gauge metal sort of a
U shape, a U-bolt perhaps here.
Q. All right. And tell us again where you found it in the
parking lot.
A. Front edge of the parking lot. There were several rows of
cars there, and it was just between those rows of cars.
Q. You can take your seat.
Now, when you processed the parking lot area, did you
begin in a certain portion of the parking lot?
A. Yes. We -- I directed that we begin at that northeast
corner where I had had them clear out the area, and we
basically worked out from that area into the rest of the
parking lot.
Q. And after you finished processing the parking lot, did you
allow others to come in and use it for other purposes?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Tigar.
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello again, Agent.
A. Hello.
Q. We were looking earlier at this picture which is in
evidence as Government's 745. That over here on this side,
that's the -- the Chevy van from which you recovered this big
piece here; correct? Government 743.
A. Yes.
Q. And as you said, when we asked about it before, this -- all
these fires here had been put out; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. But what we're seeing here in the orange are the flames of
the burning vehicles; correct?
A. It appears that way.
Q. And the Chevy van apparently -- did it look as though it
had caught fire?
A. No.
Q. The Chevy van you depict at the time you recovered it as --
in Government Exhibit 744 and you see -- this melting of the
inside upholstery of the Chevy van?
A. Could be.
Q. Well, did you -- did you inspect it?
A. I did.
Q. Did it appear to you that it had been melted?
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
A. I couldn't tell if that was a melting or -- or what kind of
damage that was, but it's -- it's possible it was melting.
Q. All right. Now, looking back again at 745, do you see this
wheel here?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is that, as you observed it, the wheel of one of the
automobiles in the parking lot, or is that a wheel from the --
that came from somewhere else?
A. No. I believe that's a wheel of one of the vehicles. In
fact, I think it's still connected to the vehicle right there.
Q. As you can see it. Now, does that wheel appear to you to
have been distorted?
A. Possibly. I -- it's kind of hard to tell from that
photograph.
Q. Well, the -- do you remember having noticed that wheel at
the time that you were looking there?
A. I don't particularly recall that particular wheel.
Q. Now, sir, so that we can orient ourselves. This is what's
in evidence as Government's 940.
A. Yes.
Q. And here's where the -- the Murrah Building is -- or was;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then there's N.W. 5th Street; right?
A. Yes.
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
Q. And the parking lot there, that's the parking lot we're
talking about; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. The northeast corner you referred to is up here closest to
the Journal Record Building; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And this -- the parking lot is bounded on the other side by
the Athenian Building, the brick building?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, how did you receive your assignment to be the
search agent in charge of Grid 5?
A. I received it at an administrative meeting that I attended
on the morning of the 20th.
Q. And that was a meeting presided over by Special Agents Dave
Williams and Rick Hahn; is that right?
A. They were there. I don't know that they were presiding
over it.
Q. Did you understand that they were to be the crime-scene
coordinators?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you -- you said you recovered 743 on the 24th of
April; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And -- refresh my recollection. When did you recover this
other piece, the U-bolt piece we were looking at earlier? I
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
don't know where it is.
A. The 23d.
Q. The 23d. There it is. This one. This one.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you recovered this U-bolt piece, which is
Government's --
A. It's on the red tag.
Q. On the red. I see. 742. Did it have this discoloration
on it? The white and --
A. Yeah. To some extent, it did, yes.
Q. -- the rust?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Well, has anything happened to change the appearance of it
since you recovered it that you can remember?
A. It looks perhaps a little more corroded than when I first
saw it, but it's generally the same appearance.
Q. Now, when you recovered these items, these heavy ones, what
did you do with them?
A. Labeled them, packaged them as appropriately, and then
brought them at the end of the shift to the Evidence Control
Center.
Q. How did you -- did you personally take them to the Evidence
Control Center?
A. Yes.
Q. In what sort of a conveyance?
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
A. Depended on the day. We had various vehicles available to
us, and we would use whichever vehicle was available that
afternoon.
Q. Did -- now, at any time during your search activity, did
you ever see a Ryder truck that had been brought down there by
the ATF?
A. I saw a Ryder truck. I don't know that it was brought down
by the ATF.
Q. Did you see a Ryder truck with barrels in the back --
A. No.
Q. -- that you remember?
A. I did not.
Q. All right. At your briefings, it would be asked by -- you
would discuss at your briefings what sorts of things you ought
to be looking for; correct?
A. We did, yes.
Q. And when was the first briefing at which the idea that this
bomb had been carried in a Ryder truck mentioned, if you
recall?
A. It was fairly early on. I don't know if it was the first
day, but the first couple of days.
Q. So that you think the 20th or 21st?
A. Certainly, yeah.
Q. And you're familiar with sort of generally how the
investigation proceeded; correct?
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And you're familiar that it was very soon that pieces of
the Ryder truck were identified; that there was a VIN number,
and that someone formed a hypothesis that that was the truck
that was involved; right?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. There's a cup of
water. I am going to put it back over here on this table.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now -- now, do you remember a discussion that you ought to
be looking for plastic?
A. I -- yes. Along with other items, yes.
Q. And when's the first of the meetings at which you can
remember hearing that you ought to be looking for plastic?
A. I don't recall the date that that first came up.
Q. Who -- who was discussing that?
A. I do not recall who brought that to our attention.
Q. Do you remember either Special Agent Williams or Special
Agent Hahn discussing the notion that blue plastic might have
been involved in this?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember them ever discussing that any particular
color of plastic should be searched for?
A. Not particularly, no. I just knew that -- that plastic was
one of the items that we discussed looking for.
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
Q. All right. And you don't remember when that was first
raised?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, was Mr. Burmeister a part of your team?
A. No, he was not.
Q. Was Mr. Kelly a part of your team?
A. No. They were a separate team.
Q. Well, did you observe that Mr. Kelly had any responsibility
for searching for items within your area?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And how was it that Mr. Kelly got some responsibility for
searching in the area that had been assigned to you?
A. Well, actually, their search began before ours did. When I
arrived midmorning of the 20th, they had already begun -- I
observed them conducting a search and I discussed with them the
areas that they were searching.
Q. And when you say "they," you mean Mr. Kelly, Ronald Kelly?
A. Yes.
Q. And for -- for our information, who is he?
A. Mr. Kelly is a chemist in the FBI Laboratory.
Q. And was Mr. Kelly -- who else do you mean by "they"?
A. I recall Mr. Burmeister, Mr. Kelly, and there were, I
believe, one or two others with them, someone taking
photographs, someone else assisting them.
Q. And when -- when is the first time that you can remember
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
seeing Mr. Kelly there? That morning of the 20th?
A. I don't know if -- I know I talked to Mr. Burmeister on the
20th. I don't recall talking to Mr. Kelly that day.
Q. Now, where was Mr. Burmeister?
A. In that parking lot.
Q. And was he participating in searching things?
A. Yes.
Q. What area of the parking lot was Mr. Burmeister in?
A. He was in -- I observed him -- and we discussed later -- in
basically the entire parking lot. Mostly, when I saw him on
the 20th, it was in the western portion, though.
Q. And did you have a discussion with him about what he was
looking for?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you arrived at about 12 -- about 1:00 in the morning
on the 20th at Will Rogers Airport?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it raining then?
A. No.
Q. Did it rain later that night?
A. I don't recall, sir. I was asleep.
Q. Okay. When you -- was it wet on the ground as though it
had been raining when you got into Will Rogers?
A. Absolutely, yes.
Q. I mean -- and was it -- was it wet like the gentle rain
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
that droppeth from heaven or an Oklahoma gully-washer-type wet?
A. It was my first visit to Oklahoma, sir, but it was wet.
Q. All right. Now -- and when you got out there to the
parking lot on the 20th, was -- was there -- were there signs
that the parking lot had been rained on?
A. I saw some water, yes.
Q. All right. Now, you said that you chose that northwest
corner as your area that was going to be the place where you
would collect evidence; correct?
A. Northeast corner, sir.
Q. Excuse me. You're right. Northeast corner. And that is
the corner that's closest to the YMCA; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. That is to say, if you were standing -- put 940 back up
here, if I may -- here, this -- where I'm putting my hand, the
finger is the northeast corner; correct?
A. That's right.
Q. That's directly across the street from the YMCA; correct?
A. Yes, yes, it is.
Q. That orients us. And you testified earlier -- here's
Defendant's D1666. That's the photograph that shows your group
there; correct?
A. It appears to, yes.
Q. Now, what's -- is this green stuff in here grass or debris
of some kind?
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
A. It's -- it's foliage. It's not grass. It's some leaves
off the tree, other types of loose debris.
Q. Okay. And the green that surrounds -- if I can move this
over, here -- that's also the foliage that's just been knocked
right off that tree; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And there's a bunch of broken white stuff around here.
That's some kind of debris, is that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what kind of debris is that?
A. It's kind of hard to tell from this photograph. There was
quite a bit of -- of paper. There was some sheet metal, other
things that appeared as though they had come from the Murrah
Building.
Q. And you see this sign that is laying on the ground here.
Did that appear to be a sign -- see where that fellow is
standing? Here. Let's go in. We can look. There. I don't
know if you can -- can you see that or is it too fuzzy?
A. It's a bit fuzzy. I --
Q. A bit fuzzy. Let me go out again. This machine is
supposed to compensate for that, but -- there we go. There --
it looks like somebody standing here; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that sign appeared to be a sign that had been simply
tipped over by some sort of a force such as a blast wave;
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you were shown earlier a picture of a box and a
barrel. Do you remember that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you see -- see the barrel; correct?
A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. Excuse me.
Q. And in the box, do you see bags?
A. It looks like some sort of plastic.
Q. That looks like a plastic bag. Can you make out the logo
on that bag there?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, at the time you arrived on the 20th, there
were -- this is not -- in the original picture, do you see what
I'm pointing to here? A little bottle? Would it help if I
passed this up to you and then we could ask you about it?
A. Could be. Sure.
Q. Do you see some Ozarka water bottles on the ground there?
A. Oh, yes. Yes.
Q. And -- and do you remember those being there on the morning
of the 20th?
A. Yes.
Q. They didn't look like they were deposited by any force of
any blast, did they?
A. They didn't appear to have any damage on them, no.
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
Q. All right. So are -- is that more consistent with somebody
having drunk some Ozarka water and dropped the bottle on the
ground?
A. Seemed reasonable.
Q. Now, who was it that had access to this area?
A. On the 20th?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. On the 20th, there were quite a few rescue workers around
that area.
Q. And by "rescue workers," you mean people from the various
agencies not only in Oklahoma City and Oklahoma County, but
those who had come from many, many parts of the country to
help; correct?
A. On the 20th, I think it was mostly Oklahoma, but yeah,
there was quite a few different agencies there.
Q. And those folks were, because of the importance of the
rescue effort, free to come and go across that area; is that
right?
A. Across the front, mostly, but yes, there was -- there was
quite a bit of traffic along the front edge there.
Q. You didn't have any responsibility to tell them to clear
off, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. And you didn't tell anybody to clear off, did you?
A. I did not.
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
Q. Okay. Now, in addition to that, you said that these cars
that were there were being inventoried and then turned over to
the Oklahoma authorities; is that right?
A. After we looked at them for evidence, yes.
Q. Now, you said that you recovered 743 on the 24th. Did that
mean that you were not releasing any cars until after that?
A. No. Each day, as we went through the vehicles, those that
we completed that day, we turned over to the local authorities.
Q. Now, you stated on direct examination that some of these
cars had damage that looked like they had been on fire;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And did it look like they were just burned out hulks of
cars?
A. I wouldn't -- a few were -- looked like they had been
almost totally consumed in the fire. Others just had moderate
fire damage.
Q. And when we say "a few," these two vehicles here where my
finger is, they are just burned out; correct?
A. They -- yes. They looked as though they had had
extensive --
Q. And up there, this vehicle and the pickup truck next to it
looks just plain burned out, doesn't it?
A. They had, I would say, less fire damage than the ones in
the front.
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
Q. Now, the ones that were fire damaged in that way, many of
them had the tires entirely burned off, did they not?
A. To some extent, although, usually, a tire won't really
completely be consumed in a fire.
Q. Well, I'm going to ask you to look at now Government
Exhibit 745 in evidence. You saw a big version of that
earlier. I'm going to zoom in on this tire. This car. Does
it look like the tire is gone from that rim?
A. I really can't see. There doesn't appear to be much left,
but, usually, there's -- there's some portion of it still
attached.
Q. Now, earlier, on direct examination, we were talking
about -- I'm going to put up D1665. This is an overview of the
whole parking lot; correct? Let me turn the light on and see
if I can make it brighter. There.
A. No. I would call that about the left two-thirds.
Q. Two-thirds. All right. And over here, the brick part,
that's the Athenian Building; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the roof of the Athenian Building and part of the
superstructure had tumbled down into the parking lot, had it
not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you can see that rubble along here; correct?
A. That's correct.
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
Q. And you noticed that some of it is actually deposited on
this car that's left there; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this building back here, the tan one is the Journal
Record Building; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And portions of the roof of that have also fallen down
here; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you see this area here in the front where -- with my
finger, that's where a skip loader or front-end loader had come
in and pushed some things back; right?
A. It appears that way. I didn't see it.
Q. It looked -- now, during the week, as automobiles were
removed from this area, was the skip loader in there cleaning
up after it? Pushing things around?
A. No. Generally, what I did was to clean around the vehicle
first and then pull the vehicle out and we processed them.
That is, we went through the vehicles, looking for evidence
over on -- on Robinson Street.
Q. Now, did your responsibility include anything to do with
the crater?
A. No.
Q. Could you see the crater from where you were?
A. Yes.
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
Q. Did there come a time when it was filled in?
A. No. I really don't recall ever -- filling in.
Q. Well, when you got there, there was a big hole, blast
crater in front of the Murrah Building; correct?
A. There was a hole covered in a blue tarp when I first
arrived.
Q. Did you ever see anybody fill that hole with earth or other
fill material?
A. Not that I can recall, no.
Q. Okay. Now, sir, did there come a time when you were there
that the FBI established a sift site?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was that sift site, while you were there, ever located
in the parking lot that was a part of your responsibility?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Were -- were you aware that the sift site was -- was
later there or you didn't -- you don't know one way or another?
A. I wasn't there when that occurred.
Q. Okay. And you just -- you don't know whether or not it did
or you just weren't --
A. I do not have any knowledge of that.
Q. Okay. Now, how long did you stay?
A. I left on May 5.
Q. And were these meetings with Special Agent Williams and
Special Agent Hahn held every day during the time you were
Donald Sachtleben - Cross
there?
A. I saw Mr. Hahn most days. I don't recall seeing
Mr. Williams every day.
Q. But they were responsible for the overall management of the
crime scene until the time you left; is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: I have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MS. WILKINSON: Just one. Mr. Tigar, could I have
D1665?
MR. TIGAR: There you go.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Sachtleben, you began your search on what day at the
parking lot?
A. April 20th.
Q. And you finished it on what day?
A. Roughly April 28th.
Q. And you were there every day, April through -- April 20th
through April 28th?
A. Yes.
Q. So there was no sift site in the parking lot during that
time period; is that your testimony?
A. No.
Donald Sachtleben - Redirect
Q. Okay. Now, I want to focus again on this northwest corner
here of the parking lot. On April 21st, had you gotten to that
portion of the parking lot to do your search?
A. No.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Briefly, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Did -- I want to put this back up there again. Did you see
anybody else other than your team searching over here on the
21st?
A. The 21st, Mr. Burmeister, Mr. Kelly, and several other
individuals that were affiliated with his group were in that
area. Yes.
Q. And you saw them there on the 21st; is that right?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Nothing further, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: This witness can be excused.
THE COURT: Agree to excuse?
MR. TIGAR: Oh, yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: FBI Agent Bob Morton.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Robert J. Morton affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Robert J. Morton,
M-o-r-t-o-n.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good afternoon, Agent Morton.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. You work for the FBI?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How long have you been with the FBI?
A. Over nine years.
Q. You're an agent with them?
A. Yes, ma'am, I am.
Q. Where are you currently assigned?
A. I'm assigned to the Chicago field division.
Q. And were you assigned there in April of 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you have any additional responsibilities back in April
of 1995 other than being an agent?
Robert J. Morton - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What were they?
A. I was a team leader on an Evidence Response Team.
Q. What does a team leader do?
A. An Evidence Response Team is a group of trained agents who
collect evidence. The team leader is responsible for managing
the team on callouts, ensuring that crime scene is worked
properly and documentation is -- is accumulated and the
evidence is collected.
Q. On April 19th, were you directed to report to Oklahoma City
to assist with the investigation of the bombing crime scene?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did you go there with your other fellow members of the
Chicago ERT?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you fly or drive?
A. We drove.
Q. Why did you drive?
A. We drove because we realized that a lot of people were
flying in to get to the scene and we wanted to bring enough
equipment with us to process the crime scene when we got there.
Q. And you did that?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Now, did you work for -- on Agent Daly's team when you were
there?
Robert J. Morton - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you collect evidence while you were there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And today, can you tell us about one of the pieces of
evidence that you recovered.
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Do you recall working on -- I believe it was April 28th,
1995?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you recover a large piece of a metal fragment then?
A. Yes, I do (sic).
Q. What did you recover?
A. I recovered a large piece of what appeared to be truck
framework.
Q. All right. Can you step down and tell us if you recognize
that piece over here on the table.
A. It's this one.
Q. Government's Exhibit 731?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you find this?
A. I found it in the rubble of the Murrah Federal Building on
the northwest corner.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer 731.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 731 is received.
Robert J. Morton - Direct
Would you, back at the witness stand, restate where
you found it. It was a little hard to hear.
MS. WILKINSON: Sure.
THE WITNESS: I found the piece in the rubble of the
building, the northwest corner of the building.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. I'm going to show you what's not yet in evidence,
Government's Exhibit 843. Do you recognize this aerial
photograph?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And does this fairly and accurately depict the crime scene
approximately the time you saw it?
A. Yes, it does.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer 843.
MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry.
No objection.
THE COURT: 843 is received.
MR. TIGAR: Do you have it?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Morton, using this -- first, can you orient the jury
on what they are looking at, please.
A. This is the Murrah Federal Building. This is the parking
lot across the street. This would be Harvey and then that
Robert J. Morton - Direct
would be Fifth and Fourth Street.
Q. Would it be easier if I turned it north and you could tell
the jury and identify where you found the piece you just
showed.
A. Yes. The piece I found was -- was on the northwest portion
of the building, which would be -- it would be right here.
Q. Okay. And you're pointing to the left side of the building
if you're looking down?
A. Right.
Q. Where was it?
A. It was in the rubble in this portion of the building.
Q. Actually inside the building?
A. Inside the building.
MS. WILKINSON: We have no further questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Agent Morton, you recovered the piece of metal that you
showed us on the 28th; correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you'd been there since when?
A. Since the 20th, sir.
Q. In Oklahoma City. What time did you get there on the 20th?
Robert J. Morton - Cross
A. Around noon.
Q. Did you immediately join a team at noon?
A. We checked into the hotel and approximately 2:00, we were
at the command post.
Q. And were you on supervising Special Agent Daly's team?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Were you on his team for the whole period of time that you
were in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Your first assignment, was it not, was to search one of the
grids?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then, you were moved to searching in the rubble of the
Murrah Building, itself; correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. And as a part of your search, were you directed by anyone
to search for particular kinds of things?
A. We would receive updates daily on -- on things to look for.
Q. And when -- when's the first update you can remember
receiving about looking for things that appeared to be parts of
a Ryder truck?
A. I think I recall actually the very first day.
Q. And when was the time that you received an update on
looking for plastic?
A. Exactly what day, I don't recall.
Robert J. Morton - Cross
Q. There came a time when you began to look for plastic;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And in fact, you recovered some white plastic and some blue
plastic; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you turned that in to your team leader?
A. That's correct.
Q. And when you would turn items in to the team leader, the
team leader would decide whether it was a keep or not keep;
right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, the piece of metal that you identified here
today, was that photographed in place?
A. No, it was not.
Q. All right. Did you have a photographer on your team?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. That was Agent Schwabech?
A. At various times, various members could assume the duties
of the photographer.
Q. Agent Schwabech -- Greg Schwabech -- you know who that is;
right?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. He was on your team at least some of the days?
A. He was on the team all of the days.
Robert J. Morton - Cross
Q. In addition to that, you had a sketcher; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you sketch the item in place?
A. No, sir.
Q. And your sketcher was named Daniel W. Gane; correct?
A. Kane. Yes.
Q. Kane. I'm sorry. I couldn't read it. And he is an FBI
employee; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. But not a special agent?
A. He is a special agent.
Q. Pardon?
A. No, sir. He is a special agent.
Q. Okay. And then you had a Special Agent Kevin Blair;
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Blair was the recorder; right?
A. Correct.
Q. And what's the recorder's job?
A. He was typing all the entries into the computer to print
out the sheet for the daily collection of evidence.
Q. So would Special Agent Blair then do that computer work at
the end of each day's shift? Or did he have a laptop on the
scene?
A. We had a laptop.
Robert J. Morton - Cross
Q. So he would go around with a laptop?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. I have nothing
further.
MS. WILKINSON: This witness can be excused.
THE COURT: May he be excused?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor. ATF Agent David
Opperman.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(David Opperman affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
State your full name for the record and spell your
last name.
THE WITNESS: David Girard Opperman, O-P-P-E-R-M-A-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Opperman, tell the jury, please, where you live and
David Opperman - Direct
work.
A. I work for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in
Houston.
Q. And how long have you worked for ATF?
A. Seven-and-a-half years.
Q. And in April of 1995, were you an agent then for ATF?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you called to assist in the collection of evidence at
the bomb scene in downtown Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. When did you arrive?
A. About 10 p.m. the night of the 19th.
Q. And approximately how long did you stay to assist in those
efforts?
A. Till the first week of May, I believe.
Q. I have some questions limited to one piece of evidence,
Agent Opperman; and let me direct your attention, if I could,
to Saturday, April 22d. Were you carrying out those duties on
that day?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did you have occasion to search an area located on the
northeast corner of Robinson and 6th Street?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And on that day and in that place, did you retrieve certain
physical evidence?
David Opperman - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to coming to court this afternoon, Agent Opperman,
did you take a look at a photograph previously admitted into
evidence as 728?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And does that photograph depict the site of the collection
of a certain piece of evidence?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, with Agent Tongate's
assistance, I'd like the witness to show where the building is
on the photograph.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Opperman, does that aerial photograph capture the
area of 6th Street and Robinson?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Okay. Either stand up and point it out to the jury, or
with the aid of the pointer, just show them what building in
particular you searched and recovered evidence from that day.
A. It would have been on this building right here.
Q. All right. Now, just for our orientation, since it's an
aerial, could you point out the Murrah Building?
A. The Murrah Building is right here.
Q. All right. And approximately what distance from the bomb
crater was it that you recovered evidence in that intersection
David Opperman - Direct
you've described?
A. It's a block and a half to two blocks.
Q. Would you describe, Agent Opperman, exactly where it was
that you found this particular item.
A. We located it on the rooftop of the building.
Q. And how tall a building?
A. One-story building.
Q. I'm going to show you now at this time what's not been
admitted yet, Government Exhibit 789. It should come up on
your screen in a moment.
Do you recognize what's shown in that photograph?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what is that, please.
A. This is a piece of the truck frame that we recovered from
the top of this building.
Q. Does that accurately depict the location of that item of
evidence as you found it on Saturday, April 22?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Government
Exhibit 789.
MR. TIGAR: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Describe what the jury is looking at, please, Agent
Opperman.
David Opperman - Direct
A. This is a section of approximately a 4-feet piece of truck
frame that we found located on top of this building that
Saturday.
Q. And have you seen the photograph that also depicts that
item of evidence, but gives perspective as to its location to
the Murrah being?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let me show you now Government Exhibit 788. It's not yet
admitted. And is that that photograph?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And does that accurately depict the proximity of this piece
to the Murrah building?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I would move to admit Exhibit
789 -- excuse me. 788.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. And talk through the photograph, if you would, for the
jury, as to what we're seeing, please.
A. This photograph was taken to show the perspective of where
we located this piece of evidence to the Murrah Building
itself.
Q. And in which direction as we're looking towards the Murrah
Building? If you wouldn't mind, just take the pen that's up
David Opperman - Direct
there with the wire on it. Reach down below the tabletop and
press on the computer screen and just put a checkmark or X
where the Murrah Building is located.
A. This is the Murrah Building here.
Q. And just circle the item of evidence again.
And please tell us again the approximate distance
between the Murrah Building and the site of the evidence.
A. It's a block and a half to two blocks.
Q. Now, according to this photograph, there is another
structure that stands between the Murrah Building and the site
of the evidence; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you just circle that building.
And how tall was that structure?
A. It's a three-story building.
Q. Agent Opperman, after these photographs were taken, did you
then actually physically remove the item of evidence?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let me ask you at this time, with the Court's permission,
to step down to the table here in front of you and examine,
please, Government Exhibit 787 and tell the jury whether that's
the same piece of evidence that you found on the rooftop on
Saturday, April 22d.
A. Yes. This is the same piece here.
Q. And how do you recognize it?
David Opperman - Direct
A. The damage to it located here and these grooves in it and
comparing it to the photographs.
MR. MACKEY: I would move for the admission of
Government Exhibit 787.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Opperman, one final question: Do you recall what the
weather conditions were like on that day?
A. Saturday morning, it was cold and windy and rainy.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you. That's all I have.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, Agent. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm one
of the lawyers appointed to help out Terry Nichols.
You recovered this on the Saturday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that would be what date? I'm --
A. The 22d.
Q. 22d. And were you -- and you were part of a search team
that was assigned to search that particular area; correct?
A. Yes. Yes, sir.
Q. You had arrived there on the 19th; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
David Opperman - Cross
Q. So it -- and had it rained the night of the 19th?
A. I drove through rain getting there.
Q. All right. So -- you got there late on the 19th?
A. 10 p.m.
Q. Had it quit by the time you got there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you probably checked into a motel and got some sleep;
right?
A. That's exactly what I did.
Q. Did it look like it had rained more overnight when you were
sleeping, when you got up in the morning?
A. I -- I don't recall.
Q. Okay. But you do recall that on that Saturday, there was
more wind and rain; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, could you step down here, please, with the Court's
permission.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Now, when you found this piece -- how heavy is this?
A. I'd say 50 to 70 pounds.
Q. All right. I'll do my best. I got it. I want to turn
around and come over here to the jury. And do you see where it
looks like there's been some pinging or hammer work on one of
these edges here? See -- I don't want to rest it on the jury
David Opperman - Cross
box. Let's see. See right there? Is that the condition it
was when you found it, just like that where it had sheared?
A. I don't remember.
Q. But --
A. I don't remember examining that that close.
Q. Okay. But, all of this distortion here, this tearing of
the metal: That was what it looked like when you found it;
isn't that right?
A. I believe so.
Q. Pretty -- pretty much like that; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And this folding back, the way that this is just folded
like a piece of cloth: That was the way it looked like when
you found it; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you see here where there's actually a fracture mark
here?
A. Yes.
Q. On the edge? That was the way when you found it; right?
A. I --
Q. As best you can remember?
A. I don't recall. I don't remember.
Q. Right. This looks pretty much like the piece of metal you
found with all of these distortions on it; is that fair to say,
sir?
David Opperman - Cross
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Okay. I have nothing further, your Honor,
of the witness.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MACKEY: He may be excused.
THE COURT: Agree to excuse him?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You're -- you may leave. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'll need five minutes to
get this table out and bring another one in for the next two
witnesses.
MR. TIGAR: I want to warn Government counsel: I'm
not sure that's on there exactly right.
THE COURT: All right. We'll take a recess now. Even
though it's a little earlier than normally so you can readjust
these things.
Members of the jury, we'll take our mid-afternoon
break, then, at this time for the usual 20-minute period with
the usual cautions: keeping open minds, avoiding discussion
about the case or anything connected with it and anything
outside of our evidence.
You're excused now. 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 2:58 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. We'll recess.
(Recess at 2:58 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:18 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
You've changed the set again.
All right.
(Jury in at 3:19 p.m.)
THE COURT: Okay. Next please.
MR. MACKEY: Call at this time ATF Agent Lowell
Sprague.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Lowell Sprague affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Lowell Sprague, S-P-R-A-G-U-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Agent Sprague, where do you live?
A. Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Q. And how are you employed?
Lowell Sprague - Direct
A. I'm a special agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
Firearms.
Q. How long have you been an agent with the ATF?
A. Since May of 1985.
Q. Where are you currently assigned?
A. Tulsa field office.
Q. And how long have you been assigned there?
A. Since May of 1985.
Q. Do you have -- did you have any law enforcement experience
prior to 1985?
A. Yes, I did. I was employed by the U.S. Secret Service and
prior to that, the Tulsa Police Department, beginning in 1976.
Q. For the past 21 years, you've been involved in law
enforcement?
A. That's correct.
Q. Where were you on the morning of April 19, 1995?
A. I was in Tulsa.
Q. What were you doing?
A. I was at the Drug Enforcement Administration field office
there in Tulsa.
Q. Did information come to you that morning about what had
just occurred in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. And what did you do?
A. I immediately received orders to report to Oklahoma City
Lowell Sprague - Direct
and assist in any way I could.
Q. On the afternoon -- excuse me. On the afternoon of
April 19, did you participate in a search of 5th Street in
Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And approximately what time did you do that?
A. It was late in the afternoon or early in that evening.
Q. And in the course of that search that afternoon, did you
come across a vehicular part?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you mark and tag it?
A. I did.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, may I approach the exhibits?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Agent Sprague, let me first ask you if you can identify
what's been marked as Government's Exhibit 734?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is the truck part you found on the afternoon of
April 19?
A. That is.
Q. I also ask you if you can identify Exhibit 733?
A. Okay. That depicts the same vehicle part.
Q. Do both of these photographs accurately represent what you
saw on the afternoon of April 19?
Lowell Sprague - Direct
A. Yes, they do.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Government's
Exhibits 733 and 734.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received, may be shown.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, if you would, Agent Sprague, show us what we're
looking at in this photograph.
A. This is the front axle to the -- to a vehicle, a large
vehicle. That is the south curb line of 5th Street.
This is looking, I believe, west -- or eastbound to
the intersection of Broadway right up here.
Q. And about how far is this front axle located in terms of
where the Murrah Building is located?
A. I would say well over a city block.
Q. Let me give you a different perspective with Exhibit 733.
And again, if you would, point out the front axle of the
vehicle to the jury.
A. This would be the front axle here. This photograph depicts
the axle and then continues westbound down 5th Street. This is
the south curb line of 5th Street here.
Q. All right. What building is this we're looking at here,
this white one?
A. I believe that's the YMCA building.
Lowell Sprague - Direct
Q. And this tall building here in the distance?
A. Would be the Regency Tower building.
Q. Can you see the Murrah Building on this photograph?
A. No, you can't. It would be over here on the -- also on the
south side of 5th Street.
Q. And you're indicating to the top left-hand corner of the
building?
A. That's correct.
Q. I mean of the photograph?
A. That's correct.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, may the agent have permission
to step down?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Agent Sprague, if you would without displaying the exhibit
to the jury, could you look under the tarp and see if this --
what's been marked as Government's Exhibit 732 is the axle that
you located on the afternoon of April 19?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. And is it?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And how do you know that?
A. There is a tag affixed to the axle that I filled out,
completed and affixed to the axle that date.
Q. Do you also recognize the axle itself?
Lowell Sprague - Direct
A. I do.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, the Government would offer
Exhibit 732.
MR. TIGAR: May I just look at it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. Certainly.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 732 is received.
You can take the cover from it there.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Do you know how much this thing weighs?
A. I don't, no. I know it's heavy, though.
Q. And would you show the members of the jury what you're
speaking of when you say the front axle that you found on 5th
Street.
THE COURT: Maybe you can elevate that lift.
MR. RYAN: Yes. Thank you, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: It would be this piece right here,
Exhibit 732. Here's the tag with my initials and date that I
affixed to it that evening.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, you can be seated.
That's all the questions I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Tigar?
MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Lowell Sprague - Cross
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, Agent. I'm Michael Tigar, one of the
lawyers appointed to help out Terry Nichols.
Did -- this item here was photographed in place before
it was recovered; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And was that done under your direction?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Were you a part of a search team that day?
A. I was.
Q. And was that an ATF search team or a joint search team?
A. It was a joint effort.
Q. This was on the 19th?
A. That's correct.
Q. And in the afternoon?
A. Late afternoon. Early evening.
Q. Who was in command of the search process or crime-scene
processing at that point?
A. I'm not sure who was in command.
Q. Did you later meet Agent David Williams?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Now, you put on this axle this tag and the red tape.
Correct?
A. I put the tag on. I don't know about the red tape.
Q. Okay. And -- and on the -- this writing on the side here:
Lowell Sprague - Cross
Can you see what I'm holding up, the tag?
A. No, sir, I can't.
THE COURT: You may step down so you can see what
Mr. Tigar is referring to.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. This is your writing on the tag; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the initials LHS; and that's you; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, the writing on the other side, which is
50508028Q987DW: That is not your writing; correct?
A. That is not. That's correct.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor.
Sorry, sir.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. That was put on afterwards; right?
A. It must have been. It wasn't there when I affixed it.
MR. TIGAR: It was not there when you affixed it.
Thank you, your Honor. No further questions.
THE COURT: All right. Excusing him?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next.
MR. MACKEY: Yes. FBI Agent Todd McCall.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(Anthony McCall affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Anthony Todd McCall, M-C-C-A-L-L.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent McCall, do you work for the FBI in Dallas?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How long have you been a special agent in Dallas?
A. I've been in Dallas six-and-a-half years.
Q. And in April, 1995, were you one of the leaders of the
Dallas FBI Evidence Response Team?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. When did you first hear about the bombing in Oklahoma City?
A. At about 9:15 a.m. on Wednesday, April 19.
Q. And were you later directed to drive up to assist in the
investigation, later on the 19th?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. At about 10:30 in the evening on the 19th, did you
Anthony McCall - Direct
coordinate a search on N.W. 5th Street right in front of the
Murrah Building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And at the time of that search, did you know anything about
cars?
A. Yes, I do; and at that time I did, also.
Q. Okay. Did you during that search recognize some pieces
that you thought were debris from a large vehicle?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And with the Court's permission, I'm going to ask you to
step down and see if you can find three different pieces under
the tarp here.
THE COURT: You may do that.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: They're not in evidence. They oughtn't be
displayed.
MR. GOELMAN: I'd inquire of Mr. Tigar through the
Court if he has any objection to doing it this way and having
him identify these objects.
MR. TIGAR: If I can look at it, your Honor. I don't
think so.
These pieces?
MR. GOELMAN: This one, this one, and that one.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Anthony McCall - Direct
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Agent McCall, I want you to take a look at what's been
marked for identification Government's Exhibit 757 and tell me
if you recognize that.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. This is what used to be a torque converter from an
automatic transmission.
Q. How do you know -- when did you first see that torque
converter?
A. I saw this torque converter on N.W. 5th Street in front of
the Murrah Building probably about 10:30 that evening.
Q. How do you know that's the same item you saw?
A. First of all, the damage that was -- that had been done to
the torque converter, I noticed there were some dents in the
torque converter that looked like had been made by a bolt head.
And additionally, there is a tag on the side with my initials
on it.
Q. Could you take a look at that -- I think it's marked
Government's Exhibit 759. No, it's 760. It's the medium-size
item there?
A. Yes. This is a crankshaft from the -- a motor that was
also there on N.W. 5th Street in front of the Murrah Building
that was also picked up that night at about 5:30.
Q. How can you identify this as the same crankshaft that you
Anthony McCall - Direct
saw on April 19?
A. First of all, I remember looking at the piston and pushrods
that were still attached to the crankshaft; and again there is
a tag on this item with my initials on it.
Q. Directing your attention now to the big piece of metal.
A. Yes. This is also a section of a frame from a truck that
was also in front of the Murrah Federal Building. A couple of
things that got my attention when I first saw this: The bent
and twisted end at one end and then the other end that was
somewhat -- almost undamaged with the bracket still bolted to
it and again a tag with my initials.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we offer Government's
Exhibits 757, 760, and 763.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. GOELMAN: Take a seat, please, Agent McCall.
May I approach, your Honor, to show him some
photographs?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. McCall, I'm showing you what's been marked for
identification as Government's Exhibit 759. Do you recognize
what's depicted there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is that a fair and accurate depiction of the way that
Anthony McCall - Direct
particular piece looked when you saw it?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government's 759, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Agent, did you cause this or ask this photograph be taken?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And when you recovered these items, was it dark?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. But can you -- even though this -- this does not appear to
have been taken in the dark. Right?
A. That's correct.
Q. But these positions are the positions that you remember
these items being; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And are you able to tell that in part by the relative
position of the white line and so on, things like that?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Okay. No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Anthony McCall - Direct
Q. Agent McCall, can you please describe for the jury what
they're seeing in this photograph.
A. The item that I mentioned a few moments ago, the torque
converter, is right here in the center of the picture. This is
the centerline of the street. The Murrah Federal Building
would have been to the left of the photographer. The
photographer would have been standing in the street facing the
north-northwest, with the apartment building down the street
and again, like I said, the Murrah Building to the left of the
photographer and again the torque converter sitting there in
the street.
Q. There appears to be some fluid around the torque converter.
Was that the case when you first saw it?
A. When we appeared at the scene, the first time I saw that,
yes, there -- I would have seen that fluid on that -- on the
street. Later in the evening when this was picked up, it had
rained and the entire street was wet.
Q. Were you able to determine what that fluid was when you saw
it?
A. Based on my knowledge of cars, it would have been
transmission fluid, because a torque converter is full of
transmission fluid.
Q. Thank you. I want to show you what's been marked for
identification as Government's Exhibit 761. Can you see the
crankshaft that you recovered in this picture?
Anthony McCall - Direct
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Is there anything different about this picture and the way
the scene appeared when you saw it when you arrived on
April 19?
A. There was no smoke; and then when I recovered the item,
there was yellow crime-scene tape on the item.
Q. Is that picture an accurate depiction of the way the part
itself looked and the location of the part?
A. That's the right location; but before I recovered the part,
someone had taken yellow crime-scene tape and placed it on the
item itself.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 761, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you please point out the crankshaft that you've tied
here in court in this picture.
A. The crankshaft is right here. The torque converter is
right there, and the car that was in the other picture is there
towards the center of the street. Again, this picture would
have been taken by the photographer -- was facing facedown N.W.
5th Street with their back to the intersection of Robinson, and
again the crankshaft right there and the torque converter about
20 feet closer to the crater.
Anthony McCall - Direct
Q. Can you identify what would have been the right lane of
traffic if you were headed east on N.W. 5th Street?
A. There would have been a lane for parking here, and then
there would have been a lane for driving here and here and
here.
Q. And the crankshaft is right on top of the white line on the
right side of the right lane?
A. That's correct.
Q. Agent McCall, finally I'm showing you what's been marked
for identification Government's 764.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see one of the pieces that you've identified in
court in this picture?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of its location and
its appearance when you saw it on April 19?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government's 764, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: 754?
MR. GOELMAN: 764.
MR. TIGAR: Oh, 764. Thank you. No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you point out the piece of truck rail that you
Anthony McCall - Direct
recovered on the 19th.
A. Here on this pile of debris is the frame section itself
that we recovered. This is the end that is damaged, this is
the end that is undamaged, and this is debris that had cascaded
out of the building from the explosion; and this picture was
taken by a member of my Evidence Response Team.
Q. Can you tell from this picture where in relation to the
street and the curb and the front of the Murrah Building you
found the piece of side rail?
A. This picture would have been taken with the photographer
facing a westerly direction. The building would have been to
the photographer's left, and the street would have been to the
photographer's right. This would have been the right area
right here.
Q. Can you see lines from the street itself on this picture?
A. I can't see any right now, no.
Q. Thank you, Agent.
Finally, Agent McCall, I want to show you what's
already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 728 and have you
indicate where you found these three pieces of debris.
A. The building right here: That blue dot right there is the
crater itself. The frame would have been just about 15 feet to
the east of the crater. The torque converter would have been
about 60 or so feet to the east of the crater, and then the
remaining piece, the crankshaft, would have been about 80 or so
Anthony McCall - Direct
feet to the east of the crater, almost in a straight row.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Agent McCall.
That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: What was that exhibit number?
MR. GOELMAN: 728.
MR. TIGAR: 728: It's in, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Go ahead, Mr. Tigar.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Hello again, Agent. I'm Michael Tigar, one of the lawyers
appointed to help out Terry Nichols.
You know cars; right?
A. I know a little bit about cars.
Q. You rebuild cars, don't you?
A. I've rebuilt a couple of Mustangs -- or actually working on
one. I've rebuilt another.
Q. So when you saw these things, you knew what you were
looking at; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, looking here at this -- this is a piece of crankshaft?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The one that I'm pointing to here, which is --
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor.
Anthony McCall - Cross
Can you help me out here what exhibit number that is,
sir?
MR. GOELMAN: 760.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, Mr. Goelman.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. This is 760; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, in its original state, these pieces here like this
were connected to something; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. So in order to get to where it is, this thing has to have
been torn out of the place where it originally was; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it bears marks around the edge that's consistent with
that; right?
A. I would believe so, yes.
Q. And in addition to that, did you see scorching on there?
Do you see what looks like scorching, or does it look more like
just what you'd see normally in a shop working on an engine?
A. I didn't closely examine the piece when I picked it up. I
picked it up and tagged it and put it in the truck.
Q. Okay. And similarly, you told us this torque converter in
real life -- this torque converter is just, you know, like
perfectly round; right?
A. That's correct.
Anthony McCall - Cross
Q. What time of day did you get up there, sir?
A. I arrived in Oklahoma City at approximately 1:30 p.m.
Q. And so you were in a position to see the situation when it
was light; correct?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Now, at the time you arrived -- here is Government's
Exhibit 761.
MS. WILKINSON: Mr. Tigar, there is no screen here.
MR. TIGAR: There is only one screen.
THE COURT: I think the jury may be able to see it.
MR. TIGAR: Well, all right. I'll try.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. This is the picture you were shown. I'm putting it up here
instead of using the big one -- that has all that black smoke;
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, that fire had been put out; correct?
A. There was no smoke when I arrived, no.
Q. So your visibility of the scene was unobstructed; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. This black smoke here looks like it reduced visibility down
to some very short distance; right?
A. I was not there, so --
Q. Well, you can see here that you can hardly make out some of
these details; correct?
Anthony McCall - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. So that's consistent with visibility having been reduced to
a very short distance; right?
A. If you say so.
Q. Well, I'm just asking you, sir, your interpretation of the
picture. Does it look like it's a short distance?
A. It would appear to be a short distance.
Q. Something -- I mean impossible to tell, you know, but
short?
A. Correct.
Q. On the order -- all right.
Now, this picture -- you were shown a picture, 764.
Maybe we should get the big one.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. TIGAR: If I may, your Honor.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. If we can look at this together: That's that piece of
frame rail; correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that -- your Evidence Recovery Team asked you to --
excuse me -- You asked somebody in your team to take a picture
of it; right?
A. That's right.
Q. You had a photographer with you?
A. That's right.
Anthony McCall - Cross
Q. Now, had Agents Williams and Hahn arrived yet?
A. I believe they had.
Q. Were they the ones that were directing which parts you were
to search?
A. No.
Q. Somebody else made that assignment; is that correct?
A. No. I made the assignment.
Q. Oh, you were making the assignment what to search.
Now, it appears in this picture there is some pink
here around this.
A. Correct.
Q. What's that?
A. I believe that's paint.
Q. Did you direct someone to spray-paint with pink around the
item before it was recovered?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you know who did?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Is that a standard technique in evidence recovery, to mark
the location of an item that's to be recovered with pink paint,
or with some other kind of paint?
A. It's not mine, no.
Q. When you first saw this item, the frame rail, was the pink
paint already there?
A. Yes, it was.
Anthony McCall - Cross
Q. Were you directed to look for things and pick up things
that had pink paint around them?
A. No, I was not.
Q. So you're telling us that you -- you have no knowledge as
to how that paint got there; correct?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Now, was it you that made the decision to have the item
photographed in place before it was moved?
A. Yes.
Q. And why did you do that?
A. A practice we tried to adhere to, have pictures taken of
evidence items before they were moved.
Q. In fact, it is FBI procedure also to make a sketch, is it
not?
A. Generally, it is.
Q. Did you make a sketch in this instance showing where this
item had been recovered?
A. I do not believe so.
Q. You thought that a picture was adequate; correct?
A. At that point in time, we were trying to get more equipment
into the scene, so we picked up the item and took pictures and
did what we could at the time.
Q. Did the best you could; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. But -- now, you stated that at some point the rain began;
Anthony McCall - Cross
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What time did the rain start to your memory?
A. It was about 8 p.m. when a pretty strong storm came
through.
Q. Thunderstorm?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you're from Houston; right?
A. Dallas.
Q. Dallas. Excuse me. You know what a thunderstorm is?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And that was one; correct?
A. That was one.
Q. Now, how long did that last?
A. It lasted at least 30 minutes.
Q. Now, was there rain later, then, in the evening?
A. I do not recall any more rain after that storm passed.
Q. Okay. And how did the morning of the 20th dawn, if you
remember?
A. I was still there at the scene, and I believe it dawned
with fairly clear skies.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you. No further questions, your
Honor.
Thank you, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: I just have one question, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. McCall, Mr. Tigar asked you whether or not you had that
piece sketched?
A. Correct.
Q. What was the priority when you were doing searches on
April 19, 1995?
A. Priority was to get as much debris off the streets so that
we could get emergency rescue equipment and other heavy
equipment in to obtain victims out of the building.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing further.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Excused, I assume?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, our next witness, Mr. Ed
Paddock.
Your Honor, we can proceed for a while. This witness
may need to ask the Court's indulgence to shift some of the
physical evidence.
THE COURT: All right. You just let me know when
you're ready to do that.
MR. TIGAR: Once again, your Honor, although I may
wish to voir dire on some items, we have no objection to all
the covers being taken off at this point.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
MR. TIGAR: If that's going to assist in the
presentation.
MS. WILKINSON: That would assist. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right.
(Edward Paddock affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Edward Michael Paddock, P-A-D-D-O-C-K.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Paddock.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Are you here to tell us what you know about Ford trucks?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. Can you tell us what your profession is?
A. I'm a mechanical engineer, more specifically an automotive
mechanical engineer.
Q. Could you tell the jury just briefly about your educational
background.
A. I received an associate's degree from the University of
Edward Paddock - Direct
Scranton in Pennsylvania in 1962, I received a bachelor's of
mechanical engineering from the University of Detroit in 1965,
and I received a master's of mechanical engineering from the
University of Michigan in 1968.
Q. And did you have on top of that any other education?
A. At one time I thought I might be a patent attorney and
attended law school at night, but -- and received a juris
doctorate in 1973 from Wayne State University in Detroit.
Q. But you've never practiced law; is that right?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. You had a real job?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And why don't you tell the jury where you worked for
the past 34 years.
A. Starting in 1962 as a cooperative engineering student, I
started out at Ford Motor Company and went alternating
three-month periods to school and to work and stayed with Ford
for 34 years until last December 31.
Q. And during your time, or your career at Ford, did you have
a variety of different jobs?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. At certain times in your career, did you focus on trucks?
A. I focused on trucks primarily throughout my entire career.
Q. And can you give the jury a description of the types of
jobs you did for Ford?
Edward Paddock - Direct
A. Well, I was a trainee, I was a draftsperson, I was a test
engineer, a development engineer, a durability engineer, a
design engineer, a design supervisor in several different
organizations within truck operations, and that's a thumbnail
sketch.
Q. And during that time, you learned a lot about Ford trucks;
is that right?
A. An awful lot, yes.
Q. And what was your last job before you retired from Ford?
A. I was a design analysis engineer in one of the advanced
engineer departments.
Q. What did you do as a design analysis engineer?
A. I provided technical support to younger engineers in the
company, to outside people, such as suppliers, to attorneys. I
helped defend product liability lawsuits and that type of
thing.
Q. In that capacity, were you ever called to testify?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And have you testified in court previously?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, you told us you retired last December from Ford?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Where are you currently employed?
A. I'm employed by a company called Failure Analysis.
Q. And what does Failure Analysis do?
Edward Paddock - Direct
A. Well, Failure Analysis is part of a much larger
organization called the Failure Group, and the Failure Group is
an international engineering consulting firm which specializes
in the analysis of failures, primarily related to disasters;
and in the Detroit office, I specialize in engineering failures
associated with automotive products.
Q. How long have you worked for Failure, then?
A. Since January 3 of this year.
Q. Did you complete all your -- let me start with this: Were
you asked by the federal government to assist in the
investigation of the Oklahoma City bombing?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And were you asked to look at metal debris that was
recovered from the crime scene in downtown Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you do some analysis?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you complete all of that analysis before you
retired from Ford?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, can you tell us when you were contacted by the FBI to
assist in this investigation?
A. Well, I happened to be in Oklahoma City on April 25 of
1995, and I was contacted just about that time.
Q. What were you asked to do?
Edward Paddock - Direct
A. At the time, I was asked to visit with the FBI and to
render assistance in providing part identification.
Q. Did you do that at that time?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Do you recall how long you spent in Oklahoma City at that
time?
A. Five days.
Q. And over the past two years, have you continued to inspect
metal fragments that were recovered from the crime scene?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you make any identifications of those parts?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you do that?
A. I consulted a variety of Ford documents and engineers'
drawings.
Q. Could you give us an idea of what type of documents you
looked at?
A. Well, I started out with the invoice for the vehicle. I
looked at the -- something we call the technical specification
list, which is a summary of major parts. I looked at the bill
of materials which contains all of the parts on the vehicle. I
looked at the engineering drawings of many of the parts and an
exemplar vehicle.
Q. During your participation in this investigation, do you
recall how many parts you identified from the crime scene?
Edward Paddock - Direct
A. I want to say it was about 195 or '96, right in that order,
just a little bit shy of 200.
Q. Today, have you only selected a few that you want to show
the jury?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, you told us that you were contacted by the FBI back
shortly after the bombing; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. And did you receive from them a VIN number?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what were you asked to do with that VIN number?
A. I was asked to investigate and to identify the type of
vehicle and the parts on that particular vehicle if I could.
Q. Were you able to do that, knowing the VIN number?
A. In part, yes.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. Well, I was able to pull the bill of materials, which
identified hundreds of parts on the vehicle; and it also
allowed me to pull engineering drawings, which I utilized to
identify other parts.
Q. At some point did the FBI show you a rear axle which had a
confidential VIN number on it?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you inspect that?
A. Yes.
Edward Paddock - Direct
Q. And did that assist you in determining the public VIN?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury a little bit about what a vehicle
identification number does.
A. Well, a vehicle identification number is something which is
required by the federal government, primarily the National
Highway Traffic Safety Administration. It has 17 digits in it,
and all of those digits mean something in terms of identifying
this particular vehicle.
Q. And have you prepared a chart to assist -- or assist you in
explaining to us what those 17 digits told you about the
Ryder -- excuse me -- about the Ford truck?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to determine when you reviewed all that
paperwork whether Ford had actually manufactured that truck?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you determine?
A. I determined that Ford did, indeed, manufacture that
vehicle.
Q. In what year?
A. In 1993.
Q. And did you determine what happened to that truck after it
came off the Ford assembly line?
A. It was eventually sold to a company, Ryder Truck Rental.
Q. And when was it sold to Ryder?
Edward Paddock - Direct
A. It was delivered to Ryder March 1 of 1993.
Q. If -- if you look at the 17 digits on the VIN number, will
you able to -- or are you able to determine identifying
information including the information you've just shared with
us about the year of the manufacturing of the Ford truck?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's
Exhibit 798 for demonstrative purposes.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 798 received, may be used for
demonstrative purposes.
MS. WILKINSON: May I ask Agent Norman to come forward
to put it up?
THE COURT: Yes.
You maybe want to use the easel there.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Paddock, is it fair to say this chart has a lot of
information on it?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. Could you start at the top and tell us what's
highlighted in yellow there.
A. At the top is highlighted the 17-character VIN number.
Q. And you have, I see, certain numbers underneath those 17
characters. Is that right?
A. Correct.
Edward Paddock - Direct
Q. Can you use your pointer -- I think it's there in front of
you, and you can step down if you keep your voice up, or if you
can do it with the light and tell the jury starting with
Category 1 what those characters indicate to you about this
truck.
A. Well, the first three indicate the world manufacturer,
which is Ford Motor Company.
It also identifies it as an incomplete vehicle, which
means that it's not ready to perform its intended function. It
needs something else done to it, which is the addition of a
body by someone else.
Q. Could we stop right there for a moment. Could you tell us
when Ford manufactured this truck, did they manufacture the box
that was on the truck?
A. Not on the back, no, ma'am.
Q. So what portions of the truck did Ford manufacture?
A. They manufactured that thing which is called the chassis
cab, which is the frame, all the suspension, and the cab, which
is where people sit and drive the unit.
Q. Do you know who manufactured the box that was put on top of
your Ford truck before it was sold to Ryder?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Who was that?
A. Morgan Body.
Q. Now, if you could continue and tell us what was the next
Edward Paddock - Direct
category.
A. The next digit is an "N," identified is the brake class.
All vehicles fall into a brake class, and that's something
required by the federal standard.
The next three digits, F72, that means it's a -- that
means it's a Ford F700 chassis cab with a low-profile option.
It's a special vehicle which has a low profile to accommodate
certain aftermarket bodies such as this Ryder truck.
The J is the engine, which is a 7-liter, electronic,
fuel-injected Ford.
The 4 is a check digit. It's a digit which is used to
calculate and determine that all those other 16 digits, if
they're properly recorded, will result in a 4. It's a computer
technique to verify proper input.
The P is a letter designated by the federal standard,
which means it's a 1993 model year vehicle.
The V is the plant which Ford uses to produce this
vehicle.
Q. And what plant is that where this vehicle was manufactured?
A. That's the Kentucky truck plant down -- outside of
Kentucky.
Q. Is that the only Ford truck plant that makes the F700
series?
A. Yes, ma'am.
That was outside of Louisville, Kentucky.
Edward Paddock - Direct
Q. Sorry. Go ahead.
A. And the A is the first -- first of six digits used for a
sequence number; in other words, it's A26077. If it went to
100,000, it would be a B00001.
Q. You can take your seat.
Is that a number that helps you determine when it came
off the assembly line in terms of --
A. Not very well, no.
Q. And is it unique to that vehicle?
A. It is unique to that and all other Ford vehicles, yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury what a confidential VIN is?
A. A confidential VIN varies, and it is that part of the VIN
after the 4; and it may have eight, seven, six digits in it.
It all depends.
Q. In this case, what was the CVIN for this truck?
A. The CVIN was PVA26077.
Q. Is that a unique number for this truck?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And does -- where does Ford put the entire public VIN on
this F700 series truck?
A. It's put on a certification label required by NHTSA, and
that label is affixed to the door, or the B pillar.
Q. Why is it put on the door and not on the window like our
cars have?
A. These trucks tend to be so high that if you went to look at
Edward Paddock - Direct
the VIN number -- say a police officer or whatever -- you
couldn't reach it, you couldn't see it.
Q. Now, we heard early in this case a little bit about the
confidential VIN number. Do you or does Ford place that on
various parts of the truck?
A. Yes.
Q. Why do they do that?
A. To assist a -- police officers and law enforcement agencies
in identifying vehicles which may have been stolen and the
parts stripped and sold.
Q. On what portions of the truck do you mark the CVIN?
A. We mark it on the rear-axle housing, we mark it on the
transmission, we mark it on the frame, and we mark it on the
engine.
Q. Now, in front of us we have quite a few pieces -- what I'll
call unidentified -- metal fragments from the crime scene. And
you've reviewed these before coming to court?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you also brought some exhibits to compare these pieces
to?
A. Yes.
Q. How did -- or how did you come by these exhibits, or let's
call them exemplars?
A. We tracked down the next sequentially built Ryder truck,
and that would be the vehicle with the last digit of an 8, and
Edward Paddock - Direct
purchased it from Ford -- from Ryder Truck Rental. And when I
say "we," I mean Ford Motor Company.
Q. So are these exemplars made from the truck that was of the
next F700 series truck off the Ford assembly plant?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did you take the truck and make it into these
exemplars?
A. We just dismantled it piece by piece and reassembled it
after we had cleaned it up and painted it.
Q. Will this assist you in showing the jury what these pieces
looked like before they were involved with the explosion?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you can -- we can look at this piece right in front
here with the front bumper. This looks rather cleaned up. Is
this what the truck looked like when you purchased it?
A. No, it was dirty and rusty, and we cleaned it up and
repainted it.
Q. And did you add any additional paint for purposes of
explaining your testimony to the jury?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. We painted various parts, which I had identified as
fragments found at the bomb scene, in different colors to
assist in picking them out from all black parts.
Q. And did you also cut away certain portions of the exemplars
Edward Paddock - Direct
to show the jury certain portions of the truck?
A. Yes.
Q. We'll move this one; but can you describe what this is, the
wheel that I'm pointing to?
A. That's the wheel and the tire.
Q. What did you cut away from there?
A. We cut away part of the wheel so one could see the inside
or the brake system.
Q. Now, did you examine the rear axle from the crime scene --
that was recovered from the crime scene?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Could you step down, Mr. Paddock.
If you can push that right in front of the jury. And
we need to move this exemplar -- is that right -- to show the
rear axle?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer 791 for
demonstrative purposes, the exemplar of the rear axle.
MR. TIGAR: May I inquire of counsel?
THE COURT: Sure.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Let me -- 791 -- Hi, there. I'm Michael Tigar. I'm
helping out Terry Nichols.
This is 791, the rear-axle exemplar?
Edward Paddock - Voir Dire
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TIGAR: No objection to that, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay, Mr. Paddock. This is the rear axle that was
recovered at the crime scene, which is 637A -- I'm looking at
the wrong one. I think it's 630.
It's 630. And did you examine this piece?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you determine what it is?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you determine that it is?
A. It is the thing that houses all of the internal parts of
the axle called the rear-axle housing.
Q. And did you examine the CVIN here?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What did you determine about that?
A. It is the vehicle that was eventually sold to Ryder, and it
has a partial VIN number of PVA26077.
Q. And can you describe for the jury just briefly what the
rear-axle housing consists of?
A. Well, it primarily consists of the housing itself and the
two tubes upon which all the bearings, spindles, the wheels and
eventually the tires.
Edward Paddock - Direct
Q. And can you describe for them what this rear-axle housing
looked like before when it was attached to the Ford truck?
A. Well, essentially it looked like the part we have marked as
791.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I don't know if some of
the jurors want to stand to -- because this is so close.
THE COURT: Well, all right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Go ahead. You can explain how this was attached originally
using the exemplar.
A. Well, basically the attached -- out at each outer end were
all the bearings which held the brake assembly. We had a brake
assembly at each end which we cover with a hub at each end, to
which we mounted the wheels, two on each side.
Q. And this portion where the CVIN is -- where is that on our
exemplar?
A. In the same place roughly, and it has the next sequential
number, which is PVA26078.
Q. And this damage here right in the center area?
A. That's a tear caused by high forces.
Q. Now, you told us this was attached to the wheel rim; is
that right? And the brakes?
So to remove this rear-axle housing from that portion,
what would you have to do?
A. You'd have to disconnect the U-bolts, which are mounted
Edward Paddock - Direct
roughly in this area on each side, and those U-bolts go up to a
spring, and the spring is mounted to the frame; and that's what
bolts everything together.
Q. Since I mentioned a U-bolt, can you identify this,
Government's Exhibit 742?
A. Yes. 742 is actually -- three pieces together here. One
is the U-bolt, and one is a shock bracket, and one is a spring
cap. And at one time, the spring cap was on the top. The
springs went through the U-bolt, and the lower part was bolted
to the axle.
Q. Now, this U-bolt: Was it in this shape when it was
attached to the axle?
A. No, it looks exactly like the letter U inverted, and it is
in its original condition.
Q. Where on this rear-axle housing --
A. It would go roughly right in that area when it was in its
original condition.
Q. Mr. Paddock, during your analysis, did you also look at
portions of the engine?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And were you able to determine that certain items from the
crime scene were part of the engine of the F700 Ford truck?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I'd offer Exemplar 807 for
demonstrative purposes.
Edward Paddock - Direct
MR. TIGAR: May I just look, your Honor?
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received for the demonstrative purpose.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, Mr. Paddock, do you see this item right here?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What is that?
A. That's a crankshaft that was in the original 7-liter
engine.
Q. You were pointing to Government's Exhibit 760. Is that
right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you examine this crankshaft?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you compare it to the exemplar, Government's
Exhibit 807?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you show the jury where the crankshaft would be in the
engine?
A. Well, the crankshaft starts naturally at the front of the
engine. This would be the front of the engine where your fan
and your radiator is situated, and I would be at the rear of
the engine where the transmission is situated; and the
crankshaft runs from front to rear and is marked with a casting
Edward Paddock - Direct
part number which I've highlighted in yellow.
Q. Now, have you cut away this exemplar, Government's Exhibit
807, to show the jury the crankshaft?
A. Yes. We've cut away the entire right side of the engine
plus the top.
Q. Can you describe how the engine was constructed and how the
crankshaft was inside the engine before you did this cutaway?
A. Basically, it was mounted from the bottom with all the
journals and the bearings, and the cutaway portion of the
engine looked exactly like the remaining portion on the
opposite side.
Q. How difficult would it be to get the crankshaft out of the
engine?
A. You couldn't unless you completely dismantled it.
Q. Turn it sideways.
I don't know how easy it is for the jury to see this.
It's too heavy for me to lift, Government -- no, leave that
right there, please -- all right. 757. Can you lift that up
and show the jury.
Did you determine what Government's Exhibit 757 was?
A. Yes. It is the torque converter which is mounted to the
transmission and to the engine, and it originally looked like
the part which is on the back of our other exemplar.
Q. Can you describe for the jury the changes in Government's
Exhibit 757? How does it look different from the original?
Edward Paddock - Direct
A. Well, it's obviously deformed on one side, and the output
shaft is displaced relative to its internal parts.
Q. Why don't you put it down before I ask you another
question.
How was the torque converter, Mr. Paddock, attached to
the engine?
A. It comes in as part of the transmission and it is then
bolted to the flywheel which is on the engine itself.
Q. What type of metal is used to keep the crankshaft and the
torque converter in the engine?
A. It's a casting that comes actually on the transmission.
Q. How difficult is it to remove the torque converter from the
engine?
A. Again, you have to dismantle the torque converter or a part
of it from the engine.
Q. On this little dolly is 713. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes. It is the --
Q. Don't pick it up. Why don't we turn it towards -- if you
can push it.
Did you examine 713?
A. Yes. That is the ring gear.
Q. What is a ring gear?
A. A ring gear is something which went inside the rear axle
and is actually the thing that turns or is turned by the engine
which turns the transmission, which turns your drive line which
Edward Paddock - Direct
turns your ring gear, which turns your wheel and makes your
vehicle go.
Q. Can you show us on the rear-axle exemplar, 791, where this
ring gear would have been when the truck was manufactured?
A. It would have been -- it would have been mounted internal
to the housing which we looked at before, and the shaft would
have come out towards the front of the vehicle.
Q. And again, how -- what is the manufacturing process for
putting this wheel-axle housing together and the ring gear?
A. Well, this all comes into the Ford plant. We purchase it
from Rockwell Standard, and we install it in one piece.
Q. How difficult would it be to get the ring gear out of the
rear-axle housing?
A. Again, you'd have to dismantle all of the bolts and
everything which hold it and its other associated parts
together.
Q. Instead of moving back to the other exemplar, can we look
at this exhibit here, Government's Exhibit 722, I believe it
is. Excuse me.
722. Did you examine that?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you determine what it is?
A. It is a front wheel. There are six wheels on this vehicle.
I think we found five. It originally started out looking like
the white one that is on our rear-axle exhibit. This happens
Edward Paddock - Direct
to be a front, and I can tell that by all of the parts which
are still attached to it.
Q. And obviously, this has changed shape considerably?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that fair to say? Do you notice any other changes to
it?
A. No.
MS. WILKINSON: I believe at this time, your Honor, we
need just a few minutes to move the exhibits.
THE COURT: Rearrange things?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes.
THE COURT: If you'd like to stand and stretch at this
time, members of the jury, feel free to do so.
This is one reason we don't have carpeting in this room.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I stand and watch this in
a convenient location?
THE COURT: Yes. Certainly.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay, Mr. Paddock. We're not going to be able to move all
these pieces because they're a bit too heavy. Why don't you
start, if you could, by describing to the jury what this
exemplar shows and then we'll compare the pieces.
A. Well, the exemplar shows the front part of the vehicle,
normally where the engine would be situated right in this area;
Edward Paddock - Direct
and it has the bumper, the two side rails. We call them
longitudinal side rails. This particular vehicle had a
reinforced frame side rail, and that's done by putting on a
second piece over the initial piece, and that's called a liner.
It's pretty hard to p