The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Wednesday, December 3, 1997 (morning)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 103)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:45 a.m., on the 3d day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, and
REID NEUREITER, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite
1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:45 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
Good morning.
MR. WOODS: Good morning, your Honor. Housekeeping
matter.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WOODS: During the testimony of Agent Smith, the
FBI, we played a tape recording of Lana Padilla and Josh
Nichols.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: That exhibit was 1652. The Court asked
for a transcript of that to be in the record, and that's D1652A
that we offer into evidence at this time.
THE COURT: Yes. It won't be a jury exhibit. It will
be a part of the record.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. And the Government
provided the transcript, so they consent to it.
THE COURT: Good. Thank you.
Are we ready to then proceed with Mr. Elliott?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
(Jury in at 8:47 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
JURORS: Good morning.
THE COURT: Once again, we appreciate the extra effort
that I know some of you had to make in view of the weather this
morning, so thank you very much for your prompt arrival.
We'll continue with our trial. You will recall that
yesterday when we recessed, we were hearing testimony from
Mr. Eldon Elliott, and we'll resume with his testimony now.
Mr. Elliott, if you'll resume the stand under the oath
that you took with us yesterday.
THE WITNESS: Here?
THE COURT: Yes, please.
And, Mr. Woods, you may continue.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
(Eldon Elliott was re-called.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
Eldon Elliott - Direct
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Elliott.
A. Good morning.
Q. When we took our recess yesterday at 5:00, I think we were
to the point where you had talked to Mr. Dave Russell, the vice
president of Ryder, who asked you to pull the contract on a
certain truck number; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. And he advised you not to talk to anybody and that an FBI
agent would be contacting you; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, approximately what time did Agent Crabtree arrive at
your business?
A. I believe it was around 4:00 or maybe just a little after.
Q. Okay. And did you have the contract there to give to him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you have all the paperwork, the inspection form, the
reservation form, and everything?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, can you tell the jury, then, what you recall about
this transaction. The rental agreement reflected that it was
rented on April the 17th, Monday; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. To a Mr. Robert Kling?
A. Right.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
Q. Now, had you met or talked with Mr. Kling prior to that
date of April the 17th?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. Would you tell the jury what day that was, sir.
A. That was on April the 15th, on Saturday.
Q. Okay. What time do you open up your business on Saturday?
A. We open up at 8:00, but I normally get there around 7:30.
Q. And how long did he stay?
A. We stay -- we stayed till about 10 to 11:00.
Q. When you say "we," is your shop open, doing body work or
anything, or what?
A. No, whichever's there, if I'm there, I stay later. If I
have the gal there, well, she leaves earlier than what I do.
Q. Are you open just for the Ryder business, or is your whole
shop open?
A. Just for Ryder on Saturday mornings.
Q. What time was it that you had any conversation with
Mr. Kling that day?
A. When he came in to pay for the -- put the deposit down and
make the reservation on the truck. He'd got a quote the day
before, and he came in to pay so he could make a reservation to
have the truck there.
Q. Do you recall about what time that was?
A. Probably come in about -- probably about a quarter till 9.
Q. And was he by himself that day?
Eldon Elliott - Direct
A. Yes, he was.
Q. What conversation did you have with him, as best you can
recall?
A. He just said he had got a quote the day before and he would
like to make a reservation on that. And I pulled up -- put it
in the computer to pull up his name in the reservation to make
the quote; and I said, "You want to put the $80 down for the
reservation?"
He said, no, he wanted to pay for the whole truck
rental while he had the money so he didn't spend it so that the
truck would be ready for him when he come to pick it up.
Q. Okay. And what was the total amount, if you recall?
A. I believe it was, with the deposit and everything, it was
$280.32.
Q. Now, you mentioned that you got into the computer to pull
up the quote; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you filled out some information when he paid the
full amount?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to show you what's in evidence as Defense Exhibit
1709. And can you see that well enough on the screen,
Mr. Elliott, to recognize the date on there?
A. Yeah, up in the right-hand corner, it's April the 15th of
'95.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
Q. Okay. Now, is this the form that was printed out of the
computer based on what information you put into it that day?
A. If this is the reservation, it would be. I'm not able to
read whether that's reservation or quote.
Q. Let me hand you the original since this is such a light
copy here.
MR. WOODS: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. This is a copy we've been provided. Can you read that one?
A. Yes, I can. This is the reservation that I printed out for
him.
Q. Now, what type of information did you obtain from Mr. Kling
in order to put onto the form?
A. The -- just -- everything was on the form about except
going in the reservation, I asked for his driver's license at
that time; and then I printed this out to where it showed that
he's paying the money and the balance due would be zero.
Q. Okay. What type of information did you take from his
driver's license?
A. I believe I just took the address off his driver's license.
Q. Okay. And what address did you type in, Mr. Elliott?
A. The "428 Maple Drive, Redfield, South Dakota."
Q. Okay. And was that typed in correctly, or did you make any
misspellings, or do you know?
Eldon Elliott - Direct
A. I don't remember.
Q. Is that the way it reads, "Maple Street"?
A. M-A-L-P Drive.
Q. M-A-L-P?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not it was Maple, or was it
M-A-L-P?
A. I don't remember.
Q. You recall testifying earlier that you might have made a
mistake typing it in?
A. Yes, I said I could have made a mistake.
Q. Do you recall whether or not you actually saw the driver's
license?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. I take it that's your practice and procedure,
to get the information from the driver's license, rather than
have it orally related?
A. Yes, it is. Because I'm not a good speller, and so I
always ask for a driver's license to use it.
Q. And that was a South Dakota driver's license, as best you
recall?
A. Best I recall.
Q. Okay. Now, did -- how did Mr. Kling pay you?
A. In cash.
Q. Okay. And full amount was $280-and-some-odd cents?
Eldon Elliott - Direct
A. Yes, it was.
Q. How long did the transaction take between you and Mr. Kling
there in the office that day?
A. I would say probably 10 to 15 minutes.
Q. So you had a chance to observe him fairly closely?
A. Yes.
Q. Just the two of you in the office at that time?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Do you recall how he was dressed that day?
A. All I remember he had on was just a T-shirt 'cause I've got
a counter kind of like this here, and he's standing on the
other side; and so all that was showing was just the top part
of his -- upper part.
Q. Yes, sir. Now, later on, the FBI gave you a photo lineup,
and you identified Mr. McVeigh; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Based upon you having seen him and talked with him
that day, Saturday, and then also on Monday; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Do you recall any other conversation that happened
there in the office that day, Saturday, that would be helpful
to the jury?
A. I told him at that time that I'd noticed that he didn't
have -- take no insurance on the truck. And he says -- he had
told me that, no, he didn't need insurance 'cause he was a good
Eldon Elliott - Direct
driver, he wasn't going that awful far and he had drove the big
trucks out at Fort Riley and he didn't need insurance.
And I said, "At this time, I need to explain to you,
if you're not taking insurance, that you are liable for the
damage on the truck or the cost of the truck if it was totaled
out."
And he said, "I understand that."
And I said, "Okay. In case you change your mind, all
you have to let us do -- let us know on Monday when you come
in, and we can add the insurance to the truck."
And he said, "Okay. Thank you."
Q. Now, is that your policy, you don't require insurance on
the rental; is that correct?
A. They don't have to take the insurance, but we have to
explain to them that they are responsible and then it's -- they
sign that when they sign the contract that they're responsible
for the truck if they don't take insurance.
Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Kling sign this document that you
prepared that day, Saturday?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Sign that in front of you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Okay. Now, when was the next time that you had any contact
with Mr. Kling?
A. On Monday.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
Q. And is that April the 17th?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you recall approximately what time it was?
A. I'm going to say it was probably about 4:20, 4:25 in the
afternoon.
Q. Okay. Now, that form that you filled out on Saturday that
Mr. Kling signed, did you leave that for Vicki Beemer, your
employee there, for Monday to book the reservation?
A. Yes, I did. Mr. Kling got a copy, and then two copies is
kept for us.
Q. Okay.
A. And they was there for Vicki on Monday morning.
Q. Was there a time specified that the truck was to be ready
for Mr. Kling?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. What time was that, sir?
A. He wanted it around 4:20 in the afternoon.
Q. Okay. Was that on your reservation form, did it say 4:20?
A. I don't believe it puts a time on.
Yes, on the thing it was for 1600 hours on 4-20 -- on
4-17 of '95, was supposed to pick it up at 1600 hours.
Q. And that's 4:00?
A. That's 4:00.
Q. Okay. And that's the information, then, that you left for
Vicki for Monday morning, to make sure a truck was available
Eldon Elliott - Direct
and to be available to rent it; is that correct?
A. That's correct. I left a copy just like this for her.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned to the jury that you saw
Mr. Kling that afternoon at 4 what?
A. I would think it was around 4:20, 4:25, something like
that.
Q. Where were you that afternoon?
A. I was out in the shop working.
Q. By "working," what were you doing?
A. Well, I was working on a car, but I don't remember just
what it was I was doing at that time.
Q. Okay. Doing mechanic work or bodywork?
A. It would be bodywork.
Q. Okay. And how did you have an occasion to come into the
office, if you did?
A. Vicki Beemer come out with the walk-around inspection sheet
and said, "You need to come in and inspect this truck for me,"
because we always inspected the trucks.
Q. Okay.
A. And so I walked in the office with her and took the
inspection sheet and --
Q. Did you see Mr. Kling at that time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you have a short conversation with him at that time?
A. Yes, I did. I spoke to him and asked -- I said, "I got to
Eldon Elliott - Direct
go out and do the walk-around. Would you like to come out with
me?"
And he says, "No. That's okay. I'll just wait here."
Q. Did you mention anything to him about insurance?
A. Yes, I did. I said, "Did you change your mind? Would you
like insurance?"
And he said, "No, I don't want the insurance."
Q. Now, when you mentioned the insurance, was that because you
recognized the individual from the prior --
A. Yes.
Q. -- occasion?
A. Yes, it was, your Honor.
Q. Was there any question in your mind that was the same
individual?
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. And did you go outside and do the walk --
THE COURT: I don't know if the question and the
answer matched there. No, it wasn't the same individual, or no
question?
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry, your Honor.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. My question was was there any doubt in your mind that it
was the same person.
A. No, there wasn't no doubt in my mind that that was the same
person.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, did you go out and do the walk-around, Mr. Elliott?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. Did Mr. Kling go out with you?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Was there a slight mist or slight rain at that time?
A. Yes, it was just a real slight mist. It was so slight, you
know, I wouldn't call it a rain, but it was a real light mist.
Q. Do you recall what the temperature was? Was it cold, hot,
whatever?
A. Well, it wasn't hot. It was cool in the spring. It wasn't
hot, but it wasn't real cold, either.
Q. Okay. Okay. How long would it take you to do the
walk-around?
A. Probably a minute or two.
MR. WOODS: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Elliott, I've handed you what is admitted into evidence
as Defense 1712. Do you recognize that copy, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And would you tell the jury what that copy is in your
business records, how you utilize it.
A. Okay. This is a safety and walk-around inspection. On the
Eldon Elliott - Direct
one side it has the pictures of the big trucks, the pictures of
the smaller trucks, the tow dolly, and the trailers that the
cars go on. And we note on there if there's any scratches on
the truck or any marks or anything on it. Basically when
they're not taking insurance, we make sure of every little
scratch that's on that truck, so when they get to the other
end, they're not trying to charge them for something they did
not do.
On the other side of the sheet is the safety questions
like don't drive too close and hit a car and wet pavement be
careful and cutting corners and under things too low. And they
have -- read that and initial that and then sign it down at the
bottom.
Q. Okay.
A. And then they get a copy of that to go with them.
Q. Did you make any markings or any notations on the form
concerning the condition of the Ryder truck?
A. Yes, I did. There was little, light like limb marks down
both sides of the truck and a little mark on the left front
bumper; and then down below here, I circled where it says
"scratches" and such as that on the truck.
Q. Did you say "limb marks"?
A. Well, like tree-limb marks that might have scratched the
paint real lightly.
Q. Yes, sir.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
A. No damage, but just real light marks; but I indicated it.
Q. Yes, sir. How long did that take you to do the walk-around
and inspection?
A. Probably about 1 to 2 minutes.
Q. What did you next do?
A. Then I walked back inside and showed him the inspection
slip and then give it to Vicki and told him to have a safe trip
and if he was ever in the area and we could help him again,
why, come in and see us.
Q. When you were in the office, how many people did you
observe in the office?
A. It was Mr. Kling standing there and my mechanic, Tommy
Kessinger, setting there. There was another gentleman standing
in there with Mr. Kling, and Vicki Beemer was in the office,
beside myself.
Q. Okay. And did you have any conversation with the other
individual, or just with Mr. Kling?
A. Just with Mr. Kling.
Q. Okay. When you were out making the inspection, did you
notice an automobile outside?
A. They was an automobile setting there, yes.
Q. Okay. And can you tell the jury, just give a description
as best you recall at that time.
A. It was -- I just took a short glance at it, and it was a --
what I could remember, it was either a medium-size or a
Eldon Elliott - Direct
full-size, light-color car.
Q. Okay. And were there any other customers inside the office
other than those two individuals?
A. No, they was not.
Q. Did you recognize that car as belonging to one of your
employees?
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you a question. Back on Saturday,
did you see whether or not Mr. McVeigh came in an automobile,
or were you inside the office all the time?
A. I was inside the office when he came in. And just as he
got ready to leave, the phone rang, and I answered it. And I
did not see what kind of car he was driving. In our office,
our windows is a little high. Unless you're standing up and
looking, you can't see out of them.
Q. Excuse me, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
A. And I did not see what kind of car. I just heard the door
shut and car start up.
Q. That was my next question. Did you hear anything to
indicate that there was a car outside?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. Now, how far are you located out west of town there?
A. It's just right at a mile or maybe just a fraction. I call
it a mile out of town. It might be just a little bit over a
mile from Washington Street, the main street in town.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
Q. Did most people walk, or come by automobile when they come
to your business?
A. Well, they mostly come by automobiles. We have had some
walk. We have had some ride a bicycle, but the majority comes
by car, yes.
Q. So you're pretty much a mile out, isolated there; is that
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Are you up on sort of a hill?
A. Yes, we're on a side hill. Our building sets probably 12
foot above the road, and then it goes into a nice, big, tapered
bank back up. I have the top part leveled off for the Ryder
trucks to set up there.
Q. Okay. Now, back on Monday, again, when you were in the
office there, it was a very short period of time, I take it; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you observe Mr. Kling have any conversation with the
other individual?
A. When I walked back in, they was talking. I did not hear
what they was saying.
Q. Weren't paying any attention, I take it; is that correct?
A. Wasn't paying no attention.
Q. Did you give a description of the other individual in any
form or fashion?
Eldon Elliott - Direct
A. No. Not really. I just took a glance at him. And the hat
that he had on, and I can't tell you what he really looked
like.
Q. Okay. Could you tell the jury whether or not he was
shorter or taller than Mr. Kling?
A. To be truthfully, no. He might have been just a little
shorter than Mr. Kling.
Q. And how do you make that conclusion?
A. By kind of my height and looking at him as I walked by.
Q. How tall are you, sir?
A. About 5' 10".
Q. Okay. And was that the last time you saw Mr. Kling?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, did Mr. Crabtree ask you pretty much those same
questions when he came to visit you that afternoon, Wednesday
afternoon, the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you provided the contracts and things to him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, on that contract you have in front of you, is that the
one that has Mr. Russell's name written at the top and a phone
number?
A. Yes, it is, sir.
Q. After you had the interview with Mr. Crabtree that
afternoon, where did you next go?
Eldon Elliott - Direct
A. He had the interview with me, and then with -- I believe it
was Vicki and then Tom.
Q. These were all separate; is that correct?
A. Yes, that was all separate. And then he said we had to go
to -- with him to Topeka to be fingerprinted.
Q. Did he explain to you why you were going to be
fingerprinted?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was that explanation?
A. He just wanted all of our fingerprints so that in case of
any fingerprints on the paper or anything, it wouldn't be --
for us, our fingerprints.
Q. They could eliminate you as the Robert Kling; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And did you get to Topeka?
A. No, we did not. We started out, and we just got out of
town a little ways, and he got a phone call and said that we
needed to go to Fort Riley to the CID office, they was going to
do the fingerprinting there and then they was flying a sketch
artist in.
Q. And how long did you stay there at Fort Riley in the CID
office? That evening.
A. I'm going to say it was probably two, two-and-a-half hours,
something like that, maybe.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
Q. So did you leave and go home before the sketch artist
arrived?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What time did you leave, approximately?
A. Well, I'm going to say we probably left Fort Riley about 7,
7:30, somewhere along in there.
Q. Did Mr. Crabtree interview you separately out there at Fort
Riley before you went home that night?
A. I was interviewed separately. I don't really remember who
it was that interviewed me that night out there.
Q. Did more agents arrive on the scene there at the CID
office?
A. They was the next morning, but I don't know if they was
that evening.
Q. At any rate, you went home at sometime on the evening of
the 19th; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What were you told about coming back for the sketch artist?
A. They said, "Go home and get a good night's sleep, and we'll
call you when the sketch artist get in and you'll come back out
in the morning."
Q. Did you receive a phone call?
A. That evening?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I believe it was two or three, sir.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
Q. I was going to ask you, did you receive more than one?
A. Yes.
Q. Was what the nature of the calls?
A. Well, first off, they wanted to know what the number was on
the top of the -- this inspection form, and I told them. So
then later on, they called again and wanted to know what the
other number was on the top of the inspection form.
Q. What is the other number?
A. The other number was Dave Russell's home phone number.
Q. And what was the first number?
A. The first one was his office phone number.
And then we got another call about -- probably 3:30,
4:00 in the morning and said we needed to -- I needed to meet
Vicki at the shop and bring her out to Fort Riley, so I came in
and we went from the shop to Fort Riley. Vicki's husband
brought her in. So they drove out, and I drove out to Fort
Riley to the CID office.
Q. And when you got to the CID office, were you interviewed
again by the FBI?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And was that separate, away from the other individuals,
Miss Beemer -- was Mr. Kessinger out there at that time?
A. Mr. Kessinger I think was already out there when we got
there with the sketch artist.
Q. When the FBI interviewed you, was it separate, you were
Eldon Elliott - Direct
apart from the other people?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. How long did you stay there at that time?
A. Well, I believe we got to leave Fort Riley that morning
about -- I got to leave about 7:00.
Q. Okay. And did you meet privately with the sketch artist
and take part in compiling a sketch?
A. Yes, I met separate with him. And he asked me some
questions, and then he showed me a sketch that he had made with
Mr. Kessinger and asked me if I could add anything to it, and I
says no.
Q. That was my next question. Did you take part in compiling
the sketch, or had it already been done by the time that they
met with you?
A. Yes, it had already been done, sir.
Q. Let me show you what's in evidence as D1699 and ask if you
recognize this as the sketch that was shown to you?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. That's one that was shown to you that night of the 19th?
A. Well, I can't say this is exactly the one, but I think
that's the one, a picture of the one I seen.
Q. Okay. And you were asked if you could add or delete
anything from the sketch?
A. Right.
Q. And what did you tell them?
Eldon Elliott - Direct
A. I said, no, that looks -- that looks like what it was.
Q. Okay. Were you shown another sketch that evening, or just
this one?
A. I think it was just this one.
Q. You remember who the sketch artist was, what his name was?
A. No, I don't. They flew him in from Washington, D.C.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Elliott, I'm going to hand you what's been marked for
identification purposes only as D1707 and D1708 and ask if you
have seen either one of those before, sir.
A. Yes, I had.
Q. Where did first see -- what -- can you tell us which one
you saw, or did you see both of them?
A. I seen two copies that day.
Q. Okay. And were the copies one in color and one black and
white?
A. I think they was both black and white.
Q. Okay. And who showed you the items?
A. I don't remember all the names. We was in Oklahoma City,
and Jon Hersely was there.
Q. This agent right over here on the end of the table,
Mr. Hersely?
A. Yes.
Eldon Elliott - Direct
Q. Okay. And who else?
A. And prosecuting attorney, and they was a lady there.
Trying to remember if they was two ladies. I don't remember
their names.
Q. This is before you went to the grand jury; is that correct?
A. Yes, I believe it was.
Q. And was it a photo lineup that you were being shown?
A. Pictures like this.
Q. And when you were shown the photo lineup, did you make an
identification?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you identify Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And was that the Robert Kling that you had had two
occasions to meet with and talk with?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Okay. And are those copies of the -- can you look at those
and see if those are the copies of photo lineup that you were
shown?
A. I'm sure they're copies of it, yes.
Q. There's a signature on the back of the black-and-white one.
Is that your signature, or is that just a notation that's been
given to us?
A. No, that's my signature and my initials.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Your Honor, we would offer into
Eldon Elliott - Direct
evidence 1607 and '8. Been provided by the Government. One of
them's a color copy and one's black and white.
MR. MEARNS: We have no objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. They're received. Is it 1607?
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry, your Honor. It's 1707 and
1708.
THE COURT: All right. Received.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, Mr. Elliott, I take it because of the short time you
saw the second person, you cannot make an identification of him
in any form; is that correct?
A. No, I cannot.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Mr. Elliott, thank you very much,
sir. Nice to have met you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mearns.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Elliott.
A. Good morning.
Q. You told us yesterday afternoon that you've been in the
body-shop business for about 27 years?
A. In my own business 27 years.
Q. How long have you been in the body-shop business?
A. I worked for Chevrolet garage for 16 1/2 years before I
opened my own shop.
Eldon Elliott - Cross
Q. So you've had your own shop now for about 10 years?
A. No, I've had my own shop 27 years, so altogether about 43
years.
Q. And how long have you been in the Ryder rental business?
A. I think it's around six or maybe going on seven years now.
Q. I want to direct your attention first to the morning of
Saturday, April 15, that you've spoken about a little bit this
morning, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. You told us that Robert Kling or Bob Kling came in at about
8:45; is that right?
A. Somewhere between 8:45 and 9:00, something like that.
Q. And you spent about 10 or 15 minutes with him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And during that 10 or 15 minutes, would it be fair to say
that you had an opportunity to observe his face from a very
close distance?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And you had an opportunity to look in his face in good
lighting?
A. Right.
Q. And you had an opportunity to talk with him at some length
about this Ryder rental truck that he was going to get?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And it's based upon the fact that you were able to look at
Eldon Elliott - Cross
him so long that you've been able to identify Mr. Kling as in
fact being Mr. McVeigh; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, on the afternoon of April 17, the next Monday, you
were asked to do -- you were asked by Ms. Beemer to do the
walk-around for that truck; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. About how long do you think you were in the office on your
way through the office to go out to do the walk-around that
day?
A. Probably not over a minute or two.
Q. And about how long were you in the office on your way back
after you'd finished the walk-around, when you came back into
the office to give the papers back to Miss Beemer?
A. Probably not quite that long.
Q. Less than a minute on that?
A. Probably around a minute or less.
Q. And during the time that you were in the office, you saw
that Ms. Beemer was behind the counter at her desk?
A. When I came back in, yes.
Q. And Mr. Kessinger was sitting in a chair in the office,
both times that you walked through the office; is that correct?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And Mr. McVeigh was standing at the counter; correct?
A. Yes, kind of at the end of the counter.
Eldon Elliott - Cross
Q. And when you walked through the first time, when you walked
through the office the first time, you immediately recognized
Mr. McVeigh as the same man you had seen Saturday morning?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, on which walk through the office -- on the way out to
do the walk-around or the way back -- on which of those
occasions did you see the other person in the office?
A. I took the glance at the second person when I walked out --
or when I first came in to do the walk-around, just a glance at
him; and when I come back in, I glanced at him as I turned and
handed the walk-around to the -- to Vicki and talked to
Mr. McVeigh.
Q. When you say "a glance," how long are you talking about?
Just a second?
A. Oh, probably less than a second.
Q. Less than a second that you saw him?
A. Right.
Q. And the only thing that you can recall about him is the hat
that he was wearing; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Describe that hat for us, please.
A. It was a white hat with like lightning, blue lightning
strikes going back the side. And it was kind of unusual. That
was the only reason I really glanced at it, because it was
unusual.
Eldon Elliott - Cross
Q. So the white was in the back of the baseball cap?
A. It was all kind of white with just blue lightning stripes
going back the side.
Q. So it was white and blue with the blue strikes going
towards the back?
A. Right.
Q. Now, with respect to this -- the other person that you saw,
did you talk to him on April 17?
A. The second person?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I did not.
Q. And did he speak to you at all?
A. No.
Q. And did you see him speak to Ms. Beemer?
A. Not to Miss Beemer, no.
Q. And did you see him speak to Mr. Kessinger?
A. No.
Q. And did you see him speak to Mr. McVeigh?
A. They was talking when I came back in, but I did not hear
what they said.
Q. Where was -- where was this other person standing?
A. As you walk in my shop, I've got a desk and counter; and
the counter goes across the front and turn down the end kind of
like this. Mr. McVeigh was standing right at the corner of my
counter, leaning on it. The other guy was standing in the
Eldon Elliott - Cross
corner to the right of my counter, and I walked between the
two.
Q. Okay. So was this other person closer to Mr. Kessinger or
was -- let me ask it a different way.
Was Mr. McVeigh closer to Mr. Kessinger, or was this
other person closer to where Mr. Kessinger was sitting?
A. Well, they would probably be both about the same distance
because he was kind of standing in the corner of the office,
and McVeigh was standing right at the corner of the counter.
So maybe Mr. McVeigh was a little closer to Tom.
Q. Can you tell us what color this other person's hair was?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. Can you tell us whether he was wearing a jacket?
A. I didn't pay no attention to that.
Q. Can you tell us what color his pants were?
A. No, I can't.
Q. Can you tell us how much he weighed?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you about a couple of occasions on when you
spoke to Agent Crabtree or other FBI agents on April 19 and
April 20. Do you recall those questions?
A. Right.
Q. Now, Mr. Crabtree came to your office, you said, about
4:00, 4:30 on April 19; correct?
A. Right.
Eldon Elliott - Cross
Q. And he interviewed on that occasion; right?
A. Right.
Q. And do you recall telling Agent Crabtree that you only
remembered one person, Mr. Kling, being in the office on the
afternoon of April 17?
A. I don't remember telling him that, no.
MR. MEARNS: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Mr. Elliott, if you would take a look at that, and in
particular there's one sentence highlighted there. If you'd
read that to yourself.
Does that refresh your recollection that you told
Agent Crabtree on the afternoon of April 19 that you only
recalled one person being in the shop, one person, Mr. Kling,
or Mr. McVeigh, on the afternoon of April 17?
A. I still don't remember telling him that.
Q. With respect to the other person, Mr. McVeigh and the other
person that was there, that you say was there on April 17, you
don't know if they were actually together or not, do you?
A. I can't say that they was actually together, no.
Q. You didn't see them come into the office together?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You didn't see them leave together?
A. No, I did not.
Eldon Elliott - Cross
Q. And with respect to the car that Mr. Woods asked you about,
you don't know if that was the car that Mr. McVeigh arrived in
that day?
A. No, I don't know that was the car.
Q. In fact, you don't know how Mr. McVeigh got to your shop on
April 17?
A. That's right.
Q. In fact, you -- on April 15, on Saturday, you heard him get
into a car, close the door and drive away; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. But on April 17, you don't know whether he walked to the
store or whether he was driven to your shop; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And would it be fair to say that cars come and go quite
frequently from your shop there, from the body shop?
A. Sometimes.
Q. People are coming there to drop off cars to get bodywork
done; right?
A. Right.
Q. And people are leaving cars there sometimes overnight;
right?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Mr. Woods asked you a question about being shown that
sketch, that one sketch that he showed to you. Do you recall
that question?
Eldon Elliott - Cross
A. Right.
Q. And you were shown that sketch in the early morning hours
of April 20; is that right?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And the -- Mr. Rozycki or the sketch artist didn't show you
the sketch of any other person, did he, that morning?
A. No, he did not.
Q. And just one final area. On April 19, when Agent -- Agent
Crabtree called before he showed up; is that right?
A. On the 19th?
Q. Yes. Excuse me, on the afternoon of the 19th?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And among other things, Agent Crabtree told you to make
sure none of the employees left; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And to try to identify -- to find the documents that
related to the Kling rental; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And he also asked you to try to find out who else could
have seen the Mr. Kling who rented the truck; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And prior to Agent Crabtree arriving, you had already
identified Mr. Kessinger as the other person -- that is,
besides you and Miss Beemer -- who could have seen Mr. Kling on
the afternoon of April 17; right?
Eldon Elliott - Cross
A. Right.
Q. And you did that, you were able to do that by having
Ms. Beemer speak to Mr. Kessinger about the rental; right?
A. Right.
MR. MEARNS: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any follow-up?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Elliott, when -- Mr. Crabtree asked you not to talk
amongst yourself before he got there; is that correct?
A. I don't remember if he said not to talk -- 'cause he wanted
to find out who was -- could have seen anybody in there.
Q. Okay. Did you and Mr. Kessinger and Miss Beemer talk
amongst yourselves about the description of the individual --
A. No, we just -- before Mr. Crabtree got there? No, we did
not. We talked about the contract, and she started asking the
employees who was in there, and that's when she found out Tom
was setting in there.
Q. And when Mr. Crabtree interviewed you the afternoon of the
19th and the early morning hours of the 20th, was that on your
recollection, or what somebody else had told you?
A. Would you repeat that?
Q. Yes, sir. When Mr. Crabtree interviewed you on the
afternoon of April 19 and the early morning hours of the 20th,
Eldon Elliott - Redirect
were you giving him your memory of what you recalled, or was it
something that somebody else had told you?
A. No, it was my memory, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, the prosecutor asked you about possibility of
Mr. McVeigh walking there that afternoon of the 19th (sic).
When you saw him and asked him about had you changed your mind
about insurance, was his face wet, or was his upper clothes
wet?
A. No, it was not.
Q. And it was misting out at that time?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Mearns, the prosecutor, asked you about
this individual. Did you see him leave with Mr. McVeigh? You
had gone back to the shop; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Do you know whether or not your business conducted any
other rental right after Mr. McVeigh left with the other
individual that was there?
A. No, it did not.
Q. Okay. Did it conduct any other business, auto repair or
body shop?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did you see that individual anytime after there in your
shop from 4:20 on?
A. No, I did not.
Eldon Elliott - Redirect
Q. What time do you close up?
A. Closed at 5:00.
Q. You recall that light-color sedan being in the lot when you
closed up at 5:00?
A. No, it was not.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you, very much, sir.
Appreciate it.
MR. MEARNS: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Elliott --
MR. WOODS: He may be excused, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that agreed, he's excused?
MR. MEARNS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: He may be excused.
All right. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: To go home, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NEUREITER: May Mr. Bodley be excused to try and
procure the presence of a witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOODS: Mr. Rozycki is the next witness.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Raymond Rozycki affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Raymond T. Rozycki, R-O-Z-Y-C-K-I.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Rozycki. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one
of the lawyers that was appointed by the district judge to
represent Terry Nichols in this case.
You and I have never met; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Tell the jury what your occupation is, sir.
A. I'm employed by the FBI.
Q. Yes. As what?
A. And my job title there is a visual information specialty,
and I work as a forensic artist.
Q. And would you tell the jury what a visual information
specialty is in general terms.
A. In this case, a forensic artist is an artist who uses his
artistic skills during the course of criminal investigation or
trial.
Q. And how long have you held this position, sir?
A. 16 years.
Q. And what is your education background and your experience
background that qualified you for this position?
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
A. I have a degree, a bachelor of fine arts in painting and
printmaking. I came to the FBI during the course of my work
there, had much on-the-job experience and was trained at the
FBI school for composite art.
Q. Did you work in the art field before you joined the FBI?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what type of experience did you have at that time?
A. I've had a -- since about 1975, I've worked as a fine
artist. I've taken classes, additional classes, and had my own
studio and done my own work, had some individual shows and
things of that sort.
Q. Okay. When you had your own studio, what type of work were
you doing at that time? What type of artistic work?
A. Figure and portrait work.
Q. So how many total years do you have after your degree in
fine arts of doing this type of work, sir?
A. My degree was in '81, so that's --
Q. 16 years' experience?
A. About.
Q. Okay. Approximately how many cases have you worked on
where you have done sketches for the agents in their
investigation?
A. Now it's roughly in the area of . . . it's between 25 and
30.
Q. Okay. I want to call your attention back to April of '95
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
in connection with the Oklahoma City bombing case. Did you
work -- did you have an occasion to work on that case, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you tell the jury when you first received word that
your services were needed in connection with that
investigation.
A. That was on the 19th when I was at home and told that I
needed to get to Kansas.
Q. Was that the day of the bombing, to your recollection?
A. I'm not quite sure of the date of the bombing.
Q. You haven't kept up with it since that time, I take it?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Been working on other cases?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Approximately what time on April the 19th did you receive
word that you needed to go to Kansas?
A. That would be around 8:00, I believe. Washington time.
Q. Okay. And how did you get to Kansas, if you did?
A. I took a small plane. They had a plane waiting for me at
National Airport, and took a small plane to Kansas City, and a
state trooper drove me to Junction City.
Q. Was this an FBI plane?
A. I'm not really sure.
Q. When you say "a small plane," you didn't catch a commercial
plane; is that --
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
A. No, sir.
Q. You get to Kansas City, and a state trooper takes you to
Junction City?
A. To the fort there. Fort Riley, Kansas.
Q. Fort Riley? And who do you meet with at that time?
A. Agent Crabtree and Agent Smith, I believe.
Q. Is that Steve Smith?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Just two agents?
A. Correct.
Q. What was the purpose of meeting with the agents?
A. The agents are the first on the scene, and they make the
assessment of whether my services are necessary. And they had
the information -- any information that I would need in
starting the drawings.
Q. Did you obtain any information from Agents Crabtree and
Smith about the overall status of the investigation at that
time?
A. Not really. No. I tried to limit what I got from them to
the specific job that I had to do.
Q. What type of information, then, did you obtain from Agents
Crabtree and Smith?
A. Their assessment of -- excuse me -- the witnesses --
telling me who the witnesses were. Their assessment of who was
the best one -- who had the best recollection, and the order to
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
start with on those witnesses.
Q. All right. And after meeting with those two agents, did
you then meet with some witnesses?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you meet with first?
A. Mr. Kessinger.
Q. Did you meet with him separately?
A. No. No. There were two agents present initially and in
the room with me and Mr. Kessinger.
Q. How long did the agents stay in the room with you?
A. Roughly a half an hour.
Q. Did you then continue to meet with Mr. Kessinger to draw
your sketch?
A. That's correct.
Q. How long did that take?
A. Two to three hours.
Q. Can you give the jury just a brief description of what
process you go through when you meet with a witness in order to
draw a sketch from their memory?
A. Initially we sort of get to know each other, exchange
pleasantries, and I tell them about the process that we'll go
through, show them the forms, the form and the book --
Q. By "book," what do you mean?
A. It is the catalogue of facial -- the FBI facial catalogue.
MR. WOODS: Okay. May I approach the witness, your
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Rozycki, I've handed you a item marked Defense Exhibit
1730. Is that the number that's in the right corner?
A. That's correct.
Q. And have you seen exhibits identical to that before?
A. Yes.
Q. And . . .
MR. WOODS: We would offer that into evidence, your
Honor, before we begin talking about it, 1730.
MR. MACKEY: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, D1730.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, is that the FBI's facial catalogue that you use in
connection with interview of witnesses?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. And without describing it in detail, tell the jury briefly
what the facial catalogue contains.
A. It contains a number of faces, persons' faces broken down
into categories, those being the shape of the face and other
facial characteristics, the eyes, eyebrows, cheeks, chin, ears,
and things of that sort, hair.
Q. Are there 25 categories in there, to your recollection?
A. I believe, yes.
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
Q. And approximately, what, 16 different photos per category?
A. That's correct. It varies.
Q. And how do you utilize that with a witness?
A. The witness is instructed to look through the catalogue,
first emphasizing the overall head shape and pick out
photographs -- and look at photographs and pick out
characteristics that closely resemble their recollection of the
person that they saw.
Q. And approximately how long does this process take on the
average, per witness?
A. It varies on their -- how deliberate they are and how well
they remember the face. It can take half an hour to an hour.
Q. Okay. On this particular occasion, did you draw one sketch
of one individual or two sketches of two individuals with
Mr. Kessinger?
A. Two sketches of two individuals.
Q. Okay. And how long did that take?
A. Again, between five and six hours, I think.
Q. I'm going to show you what's in evidence as Defense Exhibit
1699. Is that one of the sketches you drew, Mr. Rozycki?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Okay. You put your initials on it anywhere, or can you
just recognize it as one that you drew?
A. Often or -- often I put my initials on it, and I can
recognize this as one I drew.
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
Q. Okay. And I'm also going to show you what's in evidence as
Defense 1731. Is this the second sketch you drew after your
interview with Mr. Kessinger?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. Now, after your interview with Mr. Kessinger, did
you have a meeting and interview with any other witnesses
present there at Fort Riley there that evening?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you meet with first after Mr. Kessinger?
A. Mr. Elliott.
Q. Did you show one or both of the sketches to Mr. Elliott?
A. I showed one of the sketches to Mr. Elliott.
Q. Which one, do you recall?
A. Our designation of Un. Sub. No. 1.
Q. And did Mr. Elliott indicate to you that he could add or
delete anything from the sketch?
A. No, he couldn't. He could not add or delete anything from
the sketch.
Q. What were his words, if you recall, how he described that?
A. That, I can't recall exactly. His recollection was very
scant about the individual.
Q. And as to Vicki Beemer, did you meet with her?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you show her one or two of the sketches?
A. One of the sketches. The Un. Sub. No. 1, again.
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
Q. And did she say she could add or delete anything from the
sketch?
A. Nothing from the sketch. Her information was more about a
remark that the individual made. That was mostly her
recollection of that.
Q. Okay. Do you recall what the remark was?
A. It was about -- related to his birthday. It was in that
time frame.
Q. Did she tell you that the sketch was not accurate in any
way?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, after you do the sketches -- excuse me. Were there
any other witnesses that it was shown to there that night in
your presence?
A. No, sir.
Q. After you do the sketches, what happens to them?
A. Copies are made and given to the agents, and at that point
it goes out of my hands.
Q. Okay. Your purpose was solely to draw the sketch?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you take part in distributing the sketch --
A. No, sir.
Q. -- to potential witnesses?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you take part in releasing it on national TV?
Raymond Rozycki - Direct
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see your sketches on national TV the next day?
A. No. No.
Q. You don't watch TV?
A. Well, not at that point. I was traveling between there and
Oklahoma City.
Q. When was the first time you saw your sketches on TV?
A. On TV . . . I'm not -- I didn't watch much TV in Oklahoma
City. I really don't know. It was after -- well after the
fact.
Q. Did you, or did you not see your sketches on TV?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay.
A. Know that I saw them in newspapers, but I can't recall on
TV.
Q. Okay. At any rate, to your knowledge, they were
distributed nationwide; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, you said you went to Oklahoma City?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you do anything in connection with these witnesses in
Junction City down in Oklahoma City?
A. No, sir.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, Mr. Rozycki.
We pass the witness, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mackey.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Rozycki, the first time that you met Tom Kessinger,
Eldon Elliott, and Vicki Beemer was in the early morning hours
of Thursday, April 20, 1995; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. When's the last time you've seen those three individuals?
A. In the jury room.
Q. In the witness room?
THE COURT: Not the jury room.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. The witness room, excuse me.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. So you've been waiting with Mr. Kessinger and Mr. Elliott
and Miss Beemer the last couple days?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. As a forensic artist, it doesn't fall to you, I take it,
Mr. Rozycki, to routinely interview fact witnesses to develop
information about what a person might know or recall about an
event; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. That falls to the special agents at the FBI; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that division of skill was in your mind when you
Raymond Rozycki - Cross
arrived early that morning and talked to Agent Crabtree and
Agent Smith; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you relied entirely on their assessment of who had the
best opportunity to observe and therefore who might have the
most information to relay to you; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the assessment that Agent Crabtree provided to you was
of those three individuals, you should speak first to Tom
Kessinger; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. His assessment was that Mr. Kessinger had the best vantage
point; right?
A. Correct, yes.
Q. And that he had the best recall -- detailed recall of what
he had seen on Monday, April 17th?
A. That's correct.
Q. You produced, based on your interview with Mr. Kessinger
and only Mr. Kessinger, the exhibits that have been shown to
you here, those two composites; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You showed to Mr. Elliott and Miss Beemer the composite of
John Doe No. 1; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not show the composite of John Doe 2 to either
Raymond Rozycki - Cross
Mr. Elliott or Miss Beemer, did you?
A. That's correct.
Q. Why didn't you do that?
A. Their recall of that individual was nonexistent, virtually
nonexistent. And Mr. Elliott was not present when that person
was there.
Q. Your understanding that neither Mr. Elliott or Miss Beemer
had even the slightest amount of information sufficient for you
as a forensic artist to display your work product and say, "Can
you add or delete?"
A. That's correct.
Q. So you didn't even bother to show them Un. Sub. No. 2?
A. Again, right.
Q. And when shown Un. Sub. No. 1, they offered absolutely no
other details; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. MACKEY: I have nothing else.
MR. WOODS: Just short.
THE COURT: Yes, all right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Rozycki, you just mentioned that Mr. Elliott was never
present when John Doe 2 was present?
A. The space in time that we were talking about where there
were two people in question, which is the time when
Raymond Rozycki - Redirect
Mr. Kessinger and Miss Vicki Beemer were in the room together
with these two individuals, Mr. Elliott was not present.
Q. Okay. And you say that Mr. Elliott's recollection of John
Doe No. 1 was vague?
A. Correct, yes.
Q. Did you learn that he had had two separate meetings and two
conversations with John Doe No. 1?
A. No, sir.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thanks, Agent Rozycki.
No further questions, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing.
THE COURT: Is he excused?
MR. WOODS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Agreed, Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Jeff Davis.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(John Davis affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: John Jeffrey Davis, D-A-V-I-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
John Davis - Direct
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Davis.
A. Good morning.
Q. Will you tell the jury where you live.
A. I live in Junction City, Kansas.
Q. How long have you lived there?
A. Since 1976.
Q. What's your occupation?
A. I am an alarms monitor and a 911 operator on Fort Riley.
Q. And working for who?
A. Service Care of America, out of Atlanta.
Q. And is that under any portion of Fort Riley, the Army?
A. It's a government contract.
Q. You work with the provost marshal?
A. Correct.
Q. How long have you been doing that, sir?
A. Since '94. November.
Q. During 1995, how were you employed?
A. I was working there part-time at the provost marshal's
office, and I was also employed at Hunam Palace Chinese
restaurant in Junction City.
Q. Okay. I want to call your attention to April of 1995,
short time before and after the bombing in Oklahoma City, which
was on April the 19th. Do you recall that time period?
John Davis - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And I specifically want to call your attention to April the
15th, the Saturday before the bombing. Did you work that day
for Hunam Palace?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Do you recall what time of day that you went to work for
them?
A. I got into the restaurant around 5:30.
Q. What type of duties did you have at the Hunam Palace?
A. I was delivery personnel. We answered the phone and also
do miscellaneous cleanup.
Q. How long had you worked there as of April, 1995?
A. In April of '95, I'd been there approximately four years.
Q. How many owners had been there during your four-year
period?
A. That was the third set of the owners.
Q. Changed hands three times?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it one of the few Chinese restaurant delivery
restaurants in Junction City?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it the only one?
A. I believe it was at the time, yes.
Q. How did you -- how did the business obtain call-in orders?
Did you put pamphlets out in motels and businesses?
John Davis - Direct
A. Yes, we occasionally, if business got slow, went out and
blanketed most of the hotels in the area with our menus.
Q. Okay. Were there ads, also, in the Yellow Pages?
A. Yes.
Q. Based on your experience there, the number of years, can
you give an estimation of what portion of the business came
from motels and what portion of the business came from the Fort
Riley or just private homes?
A. Fort Riley probably accounted for roughly 60 percent -- 60
to 70 percent of our take-out, the hotel would probably account
for about 10, and then private in Junction would account for
the rest.
Q. Okay. Now, did there come a time on the evening of April
the 15th that you made a trip to the Dreamland hotel?
A. Yes, sir. It was the second delivery of the evening.
Q. And again, what time did you start work?
A. I got in around 5:30.
Q. And were there orders at that time ready for you to
deliver?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many?
A. There were two orders waiting when I got there.
Q. Okay. Do you recall what the second order was?
A. Not offhand, no.
Q. Was it nearby, or was it --
John Davis - Direct
A. It was up the street, to one of the trailer courts on Grand
Avenue.
Q. And what delivery did you decide to make first?
A. I went up the street to the trailer court first.
Q. Now, what -- let me show you --
MR. WOODS: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as D1739. And do
you recognize that item, sir?
A. Yes. It's our form for delivery orders.
MR. WOODS: All right. We would offer into evidence
D1739, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, D1739.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Is this the form that's attached to the food that you're to
deliver?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And what type of information is compiled on the form?
A. It's the contents of the order, the last name, the address,
and the phone number.
Q. Okay. What name was on that order?
A. Kling.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may I publish this?
John Davis - Direct
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Now, this is the form that was attached to the food, and I
take it you go somewhere to pick up the food and the form
within the restaurant; is that correct?
A. Yes. We take the order over the phone, fill out the form,
put it into the window by the kitchen. They cook it, and then
it comes out and we pack it up in a bag, staple the ticket to
the bag, and deliver it.
Q. Okay. When you say "we take the order over the phone," did
you take this order over the phone, Mr. Davis?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And when you got to work, is it your testimony this was
ready for you to deliver?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, how can you tell this is the Dreamland?
A. It's written under the -- on the address line, Dreamland,
Room 25.
Q. All right. And the name "Kling" is the customer?
A. Correct.
Q. And what are the numbers here, the "8-1108"?
A. That would be the phone number.
Q. Do you know what the prefix is there?
A. The "8" is 238. We just use the last number of the first
three.
John Davis - Direct
Q. Is that the prefix for all of Junction City or something?
A. It's 238, 762. There's various.
Q. Now, the log number, 23, what does that mean?
A. We also kept a daily log of all orders to keep track of who
delivered the orders. It's numbered so that -- at the end of
the night, when we check out, that's what our commission is
based on.
Q. All right. And what type of commission did you get -- how
are you paid for your work there at the Hunam Palace?
A. I was receiving 4.50 an hour and 7 percent of whatever we
took out in food. After tax.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. I'm going to show you what's marked for identification
purposes as 1738, D1738. Do you recognize that item, sir?
A. Yes, it's a copy of our daily log.
Q. And is it a daily log for any particular day?
A. Not written on it, no.
Q. How -- how do you tell what day it is if you all don't keep
a date on there?
A. Our -- the owner of the restaurant at the end of the night,
when we closed up, would take all the tickets from the orders,
wrap them in the log, and then put a rubber band around it and
write the date on the outside.
John Davis - Direct
Q. Okay. And this order for Kling at the Dreamland shows it's
Log No. 23?
A. Correct.
Q. And on the item in front of you, is there a 23?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And you recognize that entry?
A. Yes. It's to the Dreamland Motel.
Q. Wait. Before you read into the record --
MR. WOODS: We would offer that item into evidence,
your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: No objection.
THE COURT: D1738 will be received.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. What does Item 23 on your log reflect?
A. It's an order to the Dreamland Motel that came in at 5:00
for $9.65.
Q. Does it reflect who the delivery person was?
A. Yes. It's myself.
Q. So there are two records, then, kept showing the order and
the delivery?
A. Correct.
Q. Approximately what time did you get to the Dreamland?
A. I would guess around 5:45.
Q. What route did you have to take from the Hunam Palace to
get there?
John Davis - Direct
A. Well, I ran up the street, which is about three blocks, to
the trailer park; left the trailer park, went through Fort
Riley, out to Grandview Plaza, to the Dreamland.
Q. Is this an alternate route that you would have normally
taken?
A. Yeah. There was -- there is a bridge that is situated that
would have blocked access if it had been out, which it was.
Q. And had you been to the Dreamland before, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many times in your four years of
delivery?
A. Oh, 50 or more.
Q. Do you go there -- what frequency is that? Can you give us
an idea of how frequent you go to the Dreamland?
A. It would vary from season to season. During the summer
months, they've got a lot of seasonal jobs around; and that was
one of the motels that a lot of the seasonal workers would stay
at. So it would be more frequent during the summer. One,
maybe two a week.
Q. Was it your experience that construction workers stayed at
the Dreamland?
A. Construction workers, roofing crews.
Q. Okay. And you often received orders from those?
A. Yes.
Q. Were those located on any particular wing of the motel?
John Davis - Direct
A. Yes. It would -- the office is situated in the center.
The building's in an L shape. Most of the long-term people
that were there stayed over to the right of the office.
Q. On the east wing?
A. Correct.
Q. And did you know where Room 25 was when you were making
your delivery?
A. Not right offhand, no.
Q. When you drove up, what did you see?
A. I pulled into the parking lot, and there was a gentleman
standing in the doorway of the first door to the left of the
office.
Q. And did you look at the door number to see if that was Room
25?
A. No. The door was already open.
Q. Did you look at any other doors to see that you were on the
right side of the motel to find Room 25?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it your determination that you were in the right
area?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Where did you park?
A. I parked very close to directly in front of the open door.
Q. Was there another car right in front of the open door, to
your recollection?
John Davis - Direct
A. Not that I can recall, no.
Q. And what happened after you parked?
A. I got out of the car with the bag of food, removed the
ticket from the bag, and approached the gentleman in the
doorway.
Q. Did you have a conversation with the gentleman?
A. A short one. His food was fairly late at that point. He
asked if I had had a problem getting out there due to the
bridge being out. And I told him that no, I'd just gotten to
work late and we were running a little behind.
Q. Was he angry or upset that his food was late?
A. No, he didn't appear to be.
Q. Was there any other conversation that you had with him?
A. We discussed the fact that it was fairly nice out that day;
it had been rather dreary and rainy the week prior.
Q. Okay. And how was the individual dressed, if you recall?
A. Casually. I mean, he wasn't dressed in sweats and a
T-shirt and looking scraggly and bummed out; but he was just
casual dress: jeans, T-shirt type.
Q. Was he wearing a military uniform or camouflage --
A. No.
Q. -- fatigues or anything?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. And where was he standing during this period that
you had a conversation with him?
John Davis - Direct
A. He was standing in the doorway.
Q. How close did you get to him?
A. Oh, close enough to hand him the food at arm's reach. 3
feet.
Q. How long did you stay there in conversation with him?
A. 2 to 3 minutes.
Q. Did he pay you for the items?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did he pay you?
A. With cash.
Q. Where did he obtain the cash from?
A. I believe he pulled it out of one of his front pockets.
Q. And the order was for 9.65?
A. Yes.
Q. How much did he give you?
A. $11.
Q. Okay. So a tip of $1.35?
A. Correct.
Q. What did you do at that time? Any further conversation at
all with the individual?
A. Not that I can recall, no.
Q. Did you ask him if he was Mr. Kling when you walked up to
him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Is it -- I take it from your testimony you had decided that
John Davis - Direct
that was Room 25, by looking at the numbers on the --
A. Yes.
Q. So was there any question in your mind that you were going
to the right place?
A. No. Not at all.
Q. Did he indicate that he was waiting on the food?
A. I assumed that when I pulled up.
Q. Did the individual go into the room and shut the door
before you left?
A. I don't recall.
Q. What did you do after you gave the food to him, got the
money? What did you next do?
A. I got back in my car, returned to the restaurant.
Q. So your total time with the individual was approximately
how long?
A. 2 to 3 minutes.
Q. Now, were you contacted by the FBI two days after the
bombing? The bombing occurred on April the 19th.
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you when you were contacted?
A. I was at work at the restaurant.
Q. And who was it that contacted you, if you recall?
A. I believe it was Gary Burgess from the Junction City -- or
the Geary County Sheriff's Office and an FBI agent.
Q. Did you know Mr. Burgess?
John Davis - Direct
A. Not personally, no.
Q. Did you know who he was, being a local office?
A. Yes, a local office.
Q. How big is Junction City, by the way?
A. Approximately 25,000.
Q. Most people know each other?
A. Well, there's smaller groupings; but, yeah, I mean it's a
small town.
Q. Had you done business at the Dreamland and at the
McDonald's and Eldon Elliott's? You know where those places
are?
A. Yes.
Q. Firestone store?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. On Friday, April 21, did -- what happened at that
time when the FBI questioned you? Were the records available
of the delivery?
A. I don't know that they were at that time.
Q. And were the records available shortly thereafter?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to determine based on the log that's in front
of you and this order form, the Kling order, that you were the
delivery person?
A. Correct.
Q. Were you able to determine that on Friday when they first
John Davis - Direct
approached you, April 21?
A. I believe we went and went through a process of elimination
with the other drivers.
Q. How many drivers work there?
A. I'm not sure how many are currently employed there. There
were two or three of us at that point.
Q. Okay. And did they show you some sketches at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. Two.
Q. And were you able to identify anybody at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Did you have a subsequent meeting with the FBI
where they showed you a photo lineup with individuals?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And were you able to identify anybody in that photo
lineup?
A. No, sir.
Q. By the time that they showed you the photo lineup -- which
was the following week; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you remember what day it was?
A. Not offhand, no.
Q. Had you seen a photo of Mr. McVeigh in the newspaper?
A. I believe I had by that point, yes.
John Davis - Direct
Q. Did you tell the agents anything about having viewed that
photograph in the newspaper?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. What did you tell them?
A. I believe that I said that I had -- that Sunday, the
morning paper that Sunday had run a picture of Mr. McVeigh from
the shoulders up -- I believe.
Q. And what did you tell the agents concerning the photo
lineup they were showing you?
A. That none of the pictures that I was shown was the person
I'd delivered to.
Q. What did you tell the agents concerning the description of
the individual as it compared to the photograph in the
newspaper of Mr. McVeigh?
A. That there were several things that didn't fall in line and
made me believe that it was not Mr. McVeigh that I delivered
to.
Q. All right. The individual that you saw and talked with --
how long, two to three minutes?
A. Correct.
Q. What was his hair color, if you recall?
A. It was a very dark blond, light brown.
Q. Was it short, in a burr haircut?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Was it -- can you give the jury an idea of what length of
John Davis - Direct
the hair it was and how it was combed or styled?
A. It wasn't styled. It was fairly -- it looked like he'd
been kind of just lounging around in his room. And the length,
2 inches on top, above the collar in back.
Q. Style was not a good word to use. How was the hair? Was
it combed, or unkempt, tousled, or what?
A. I would -- I would go with unkempt and tousled.
Q. And was that different than what you saw in the newspaper
photo of Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. What about any facial characteristics of Mr. McVeigh --
excuse me -- of the person that you saw at the room that night
that was different from the photo that you saw of Mr. McVeigh,
just the facial characteristics?
A. The nose was not the same. The ears.
Q. What was different about the nose?
A. Mr. McVeigh has a rather prominent nose, and his ears stick
out from his head, as opposed to laying flat up against his
skull.
Q. And the individual you saw at the motel -- what was
different about his nose and his ears?
A. His nose was not a prominent feature of his face, and his
ears didn't appear to me to be larger than average.
Q. Okay. Anything about his mouth?
A. Not specifically.
John Davis - Direct
Q. Anything about the width of the face?
A. He had a fairly slender face with what a -- what I would
term a severe jaw line, squared off.
Q. Let me clarify the record here. When we say "he," I'm
talking about the person at the room.
A. Yes; correct.
Q. The person at the room that you saw had a slim face?
A. Yes.
Q. And you saw the photograph of Mr. McVeigh?
A. Correct.
Q. And he has a slim face?
A. Yeah, rather slim.
Q. Were they both similar in their slimness?
A. Yeah. I . . . that's not how I judge who I deliver to.
Q. Okay.
A. I took the face as a whole, and it did not match up with
the pictures I was shown.
Q. Okay. And you saw this picture on Sunday, the, what, 23d
of April?
A. I would assume so, yes.
Q. And you had seen the individual at the room on the 15th,
eight days before?
A. Yes.
Q. So is it accurate to say that your memory was fairly fresh
at that time?
John Davis - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anything about that delivery that evening that
stood out in your mind, about going to the Dreamland and the
bridge being out?
A. Well, I had had a -- not so much an argument but a
discussion with my boss as to which way I needed to go, because
she had been out there previous on the way into town and said
that the bridge was out, and I had been out there the night
before, out to Grandview, and I do not remember it being out
the night before. And the delivery was to the opposite side of
the office from most of our business out there.
Q. And those are factors that cause you to remember the event?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you tell the agents there when they showed you the
photo lineup that you could not identify the individuals in
there?
A. Correct.
Q. And did you tell them about the difference in the
description of what you recognized at the room?
A. I believe I did.
Q. Okay. Now, have you had a lot of meetings with the
Government since that time, Mr. Davis?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you give the jury an idea of how many meetings you've
had with the Government?
John Davis - Direct
A. A dozen or more.
Q. How many?
A. A dozen or more.
Q. And where have they taken place?
A. In various locations. Been out here once to talk with
them. Several meetings in Junction City at my apartment. I
met with them on occasion down at the police department, also.
Q. Okay. And this is over what period of time?
A. Initially -- the initial month following the delivery and
the bombing, probably, oh, once every other day, like the first
week. And then it slowly dropped off.
Q. Did it pick up again at some point in time?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. When was that?
A. The grand jury empaneled down in Oklahoma City. And also
the -- shortly after ABC ran the composite that I worked on
with Miss Boylan.
Q. And when was that? Do you recall?
A. Not offhand.
Q. All right. How many times have you come to Denver here to
meet with the FBI and the prosecutors?
A. Once.
Q. When was that?
A. Would have been in September of '96, I believe.
Q. And did you meet with them in '97?
John Davis - Direct
A. Not -- no. That I can recall.
Q. Okay. What's been the tenor of those meetings? How would
you characterize the meetings?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Davis.
I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Davis. How are you?
A. Good morning.
Q. You've testified before, have you not, about this subject
matter?
A. Yes.
Q. And before coming to court today, have you reviewed a
transcript of your testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you study it carefully?
A. I looked over it this morning.
Q. How many different times have you read that transcript?
A. Three, maybe four.
Q. Mr. Davis, did you find any misstatements on your part in
that transcript?
A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
John Davis - Cross
Q. Every word that you said before, you stand by today?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Davis, on Saturday, April 15, it fell to you to make a
delivery to Room 25 at the Dreamland Motel; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you've shown the jury an order form from your business,
and the customer's name was Kling; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. No first name?
A. No.
Q. Correct? Kling, Room 25?
A. Yes.
Q. At the Dreamland Motel; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Mr. Davis, you don't quarrel with evidence that there were
two phone calls to the Hunam Palace that same day, do you?
A. I'm not aware of how -- of how many phone calls we had, no.
Q. Do you remember whether Mrs. Bai or anyone else at the
Hunam urged you, since you arrived a little bit late, to get on
with the job because one customer was already complaining?
A. I don't recall whether or not they'd already called in and
complained or not, no.
Q. In any event, you grabbed two bags and you headed out the
door on Saturday, April 15th; correct?
A. Correct.
John Davis - Cross
Q. You made the short stop first?
A. Yes.
Q. And then took the long drive through Fort Riley to Room 25
of the Dreamland; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. At that point in time, Mr. Davis, did you have any idea who
the registered guest was in Room 25?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you since April 15, 1995, seen a registration card for
that room?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember seeing, reading in the Junction City paper,
where a copy of the registration card for Room 25 was printed?
A. I may have.
Q. Do you remember that the name of the guest registered to
Room 25 was Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. And the delivery you made, you have no absolutely no doubt
was to Room 25; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Not next door, not the east wing, but definitely Room 25?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Davis, let me hand you at this time what's been
admitted into evidence as defendant Exhibit 1709. Do you see
that in front of you?
John Davis - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. It's been previously identified as a reservation form at
the Elliott's Body Shop bearing the signature of Robert D.
Kling. Do you see that signature?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the date of that reservation form is Saturday,
April 15, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. It's been also agreed, Mr. Davis, that it was Tim McVeigh
who signed the name "Robert Kling" on that form. All right.
With that representation, Mr. Davis, let me ask you: When you
delivered the bag to your customer in Room 25 on Saturday, did
you ask him to sign anything?
A. No, I did not.
Q. On that moment, as you drove off of -- after this delivery,
there was nothing special about that delivery that would give
you any reason at that time to collect and store and retain all
the details about that 2-minute encounter; correct?
A. No.
Q. It was one of many deliveries that you've made over time?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you were -- you made some 15 more deliveries that
same night; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And over the years at the Dreamland Motel, you have made
John Davis - Cross
literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of deliveries;
correct?
A. Not to the Dreamland, no.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Not hundreds.
Q. Around Junction City?
A. Yes.
Q. And there's something common about those deliveries, is
there not, Mr. Davis? They're momentary; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Very short duration?
A. Most of the time, yes.
Q. And virtually all of the customers are different?
A. With the exception of a few regulars, yes.
Q. Because so much of your business goes to Fort Riley and so
much at Fort Riley turns over its staff, you don't see many
same faces time after time, do you?
A. No, not often.
Q. And it is your testimony that this particular person inside
of Room 25 on Saturday was a person you had never seen before
and have never seen since?
A. Correct.
Q. Well, let's turn our attention now, Mr. Davis, to Friday,
April 21, two days after the bombing in Oklahoma City.
A. Right.
John Davis - Cross
Q. And about six days after this delivery to Room 25.
A. Yes.
Q. Are we focused?
A. Sure.
Q. You show up at work on Friday evening, do you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And shortly after arriving, there's a couple of police
officers, FBI agents, and local officials who are asking
questions of the delivery men at the Hunam; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And they go about their business, and they eventually get
to you because they're looking to find who it was that made the
delivery to the Dreamland Motel on Saturday; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, at the start of that interview, Mr. Davis, you
understood they were there as part of an investigation of a
massive bombing that had taken place two days before in
Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. You understood that's what they were there to do, to ask
questions that might help in that investigation; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. There was nothing about that interview, Mr. Davis, that
would prohibit or inhibit or restrain you in any fashion from
cooperating fully with law enforcement when they asked you
John Davis - Cross
about what you knew of that delivery; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You, of course, would want to cooperate fully, given the
nature of the crime and the assignment they had; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, before you started talking to the police officers that
afternoon, Mr. Davis, had you seen any news accounts in the
Junction City paper about individuals in Junction City somehow
connected to the bombing?
A. I can't say either way; that I did or did not.
Q. Let me hand you at this time what's been marked for
identification as Government Exhibit 2125. Take a look at
that, please.
And can you tell from the cover page that that's a
portion of the newspaper, from the Daily Union in Junction
City, for this same day, Friday, April 21, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you flip through it just a moment.
A. Sure.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Davis, do you see in Government Exhibit 2125 two
composite sketches that were part of that newspaper article on
Friday, April 21, 1995, in Junction City?
A. Yes.
John Davis - Cross
Q. Do you remember -- can you tell this jury whether you had
seen those composites before the time that you talked to the
FBI and the police officers?
A. I believe they were aired on television, and I'm sure I
would have seen them then.
Q. To what degree of certainty, Mr. Davis, is it that you
recall having seen the composites before you talked to the
police?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. But this was, was it not, Mr. Davis, the very first time
that anybody had asked you to freeze your mind and replay in as
much detail as possible what you had seen and observed and
could recall from this delivery; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And the officers made clear that any and all information
you might have and could remember, they wanted to learn from
you?
A. Correct.
Q. Asked open-ended questions: Tell us everything, all
details that you possibly can remember about that delivery;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And at that time, of course, they asked you: Did you make
the delivery? And you told them yes?
A. Correct.
John Davis - Cross
Q. And then they said, Mr. Davis, describe the customer that
you handed the bag to; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And at that time, Mr. Davis, knowing the import of this
interview, you told them it was definitely a white male?
A. Correct.
Q. It was not Hispanic?
A. Correct.
Q. It was not any other race. It was definitely a white male;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You told them that this individual was 28 to 29 years of
age; correct?
A. Late 20s, early 30s, yes.
Q. 28 or 29 years of age?
A. Yeah.
Q. Were you that specific on --
A. I don't know if I was that specific or not.
Q. Mr. Davis, take a -- open the book, please; and you should
find a tab for an interview marked April 21, 1995. Do you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. In the first page of the interview. Look down to the
next-to-last paragraph in that same interview. You see that?
A. Yes.
John Davis - Cross
Q. All right. Take a moment and just read it to yourself,
please.
Have you read it?
A. Yes.
Q. Having read it, Mr. Davis, do you recall telling the police
officers on that evening that this individual, this customer,
was 28 or 29 years of age?
A. I have no specific memory of that now, but that's what it
says.
Q. Do you have any reason, Mr. Davis, to doubt the content or
the accuracy of this descriptive information written up by the
officers that evening?
A. No.
Q. You also told the officers that this individual was
approximately 6-foot-tall?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told them his weight was approximately 180?
A. Correct.
Q. You described his hair as short and sandy?
A. Yes.
Q. And that he had a clean-cut manner?
A. Yes.
Q. Clean-cut look?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were certain that he had no mustache?
John Davis - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. And that was everything that you could provide in the way
of details to those officers six days after the delivery and
two days after the bombing; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You did not at that time, Mr. Davis, begin to describe size
of ears; correct?
A. No.
Q. Shape of a nose?
A. No.
Q. Color of the eyes?
A. No.
Q. The facial features in any form or fashion; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Because at that time you couldn't recall any; isn't that
true?
A. Correct.
Q. You have in fact consistently admitted, Mr. Davis, that
what stuck out in your mind about this customer were three
things: his height --
A. Yes.
Q. -- his weight, and his build?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have felt secure in your memory that he was
slightly taller than you; correct?
John Davis - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. You have felt secure in your memory that he was around 180?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have felt secure in your memory that this was a man
of slender build?
A. Yes.
Q. And then in every other respect about physical
characteristic, Mr. Davis, the scale drops off, does it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And when it comes to the face, Mr. Davis, on that day and
any other day, you have, do you not, very little specific
recall of the customer's facial features?
A. Correct.
Q. On that same day, at the Hunam Palace, the police officers
showed you two diagrams, did they not?
A. Yes.
Q. Two composites.
And I'll show you at this time what's been admitted as
Government -- excuse me -- Defendant's 1731.
MR. MACKEY: I can use the ELMO, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Davis, you recall the police officer showing you this
sketch?
A. Yes.
John Davis - Cross
Q. You took your time and studied it, I hope.
A. Yes.
Q. You looked at what's on that piece of paper and compared it
to your memory of the person you had encountered in Room 25,
did you not?
A. Correct.
Q. You knew how important it was to be precise and accurate
about your statements, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And at that time you told the police officers, "If this
person had a slightly thinner face, it might be somebody I
know; but I don't know where from." Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. They showed you, did they not, Mr. Davis, what I'm
displaying as Defendant's 1699?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Correct? Same first time you'd been asked any questions
about this delivery; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And in similar fashion, you studied this carefully, did you
not?
A. Yes.
Q. Knew how important it was that the law enforcement officers
get as much accurate information as possible as part of this
investigation; correct?
John Davis - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. You studied it, compared it to your memory of this customer
you had seen, and you told the police officers, "It's nobody I
know."
A. Correct.
Q. Then you went on to say, did you not, Mr. Davis, that "I
make so many deliveries, I cannot recall faces"?
A. Yes, I assume I did.
Q. Do you have any doubt that you made that statement when
first asked about the identity and description of your customer
when shown this composite?
A. Without opening this again, no.
Q. Mr. Davis, after the police officers left that Friday
evening, could you tell the members of the jury who it was that
you first spoke to about what you had seen and observed on
Saturday, April 15, in your delivery?
A. Outside of the restaurant? Who I spoke to first outside of
the restaurant?
Q. Yes.
A. It would have been a media contact, and I can't even recall
right now who it was.
Q. Could have been somebody from the Washington Post?
A. Yes. That was who it was.
Q. And would you tell the members of the jury when you first
spoke to any representative of the Washington Post?
John Davis - Cross
A. I can't recall a specific date offhand.
Q. I'm going to show you at this time what I've marked as
Government Exhibit 2128.
MR. WOODS: Thank you.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. You can tell from reviewing that exhibit, can you not,
Mr. Davis, that that's a Washington Post article that appeared
on April 24 -- Monday, April 24, 1995; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And page through it, as I see you doing, to the end, and
see if you can't find a quote that you gave to the Washington
Post that was published on Monday, April 24.
A. Yes.
Q. Having reviewed that exhibit, Mr. Davis, can you tell the
jury now when it was that you first spoke to a reporter from
the Washington Post?
A. It would have been, I assume, that weekend.
Q. Talked to the police on Friday; you were in the paper on
Monday; sometime in the course of the weekend, Saturday,
Sunday, you spoke --
A. Correct.
Q. Who called who?
A. They called me.
Q. And how did they have your name?
A. I really don't know.
John Davis - Cross
Q. And at that time, Mr. Davis, they asked you some questions
about much of what's been talked about here this morning?
A. Yes.
Q. "Who was this man that you delivered the Chinese food to";
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And at that time, Mr. Davis, in a statement to a newspaper
reporter, you said, "It wasn't Tim McVeigh"?
A. Correct.
Q. On Friday, you told the law enforcement officers, "I don't
recall faces." And by the weekend, it's your testimony,
Mr. Davis, you had ruled out Tim McVeigh as that customer?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Davis, what happened in the weekend, April 22 and 23,
that would move you from no recall to absolute certainty that
it was not Tim McVeigh?
A. Thought. Going back over events my head.
Q. Realizing how important it would be to be accurate?
A. Yes.
Q. You wouldn't make an offhand comment to a newspaper
reporter without having checked your mind and your memory about
the details; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Had you ever met Tim McVeigh before?
A. No, sir.
John Davis - Cross
Q. Well, how was it, Mr. Davis, that you could be so sure by
the weekend that the customer you delivered to was not him?
A. Because from my recollection, it didn't look like
Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Well, you've got to compare your memory to something, do
you not, Mr. Davis, in order to say: Therefore, I know the man
I delivered the bag to was not Tim McVeigh; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And the only something you had over the weekend, was it
not, Mr. Davis, was a portrait photo --
A. From shoulders up.
Q. -- of Tim McVeigh that you saw in a newspaper?
A. Correct.
Q. It wasn't a real, first-edition photograph, was it?
A. No.
Q. It wasn't a book-end photo that showed more of his build
and manner?
A. Correct.
Q. It was nothing more than a newspaper printout of a portrait
shot of Tim McVeigh; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Nothing in that portrait shot of Tim McVeigh would tell you
how tall he was?
A. Correct.
Q. Nothing in that shot would tell you how much he weighed?
John Davis - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. And nothing in that small portrait snapshot of Tim McVeigh
would tell you, would it, anything about his build?
A. No.
Q. And yet on that basis and that basis only, Mr. Davis, you
then made the statement to the Washington Post reporter: It
ain't Tim McVeigh.
A. Correct.
Q. And the day after, the day after this Washington Post
article appeared, the FBI came back to seek your assistance,
did they not?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. You were a man who had delivered a product to Room 25, same
room in which the person named Tim McVeigh was registered, and
they wanted to ask you some more questions; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. They wanted to test your memory of this encounter with this
person against several photographs of different individuals;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And they told you, Mr. Davis: We want you to look at this
photographic spread; you may or may not see the person who you
delivered the bag in this spread. Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. They told you: Set aside what you may have seen or read in
John Davis - Cross
the newspaper, rely only on your memory, draw it up in your
mind, compare it with what's on that photo spread; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Gave you clear instructions to study the photographic
spread and select, if you could, the person that you had
delivered the bag to, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Mr. Davis, when they showed you the photographic spread,
you had already taken a public position, had you not, that it
was not Tim McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. You expected, did you not, that Mr. McVeigh's photograph
may well be among the several that were being shown to you on
that day; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew before you began to look at those photographs
that you were not going to select Tim McVeigh; isn't that true?
A. Maybe so. But it is also my recollection that I did look
at those photographs.
Q. And you studied them?
A. Yes.
Q. But before you began looking at them, you had already ruled
out Tim McVeigh as your customer, had you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you complain at any point in time, Mr. Davis, to
John Davis - Cross
anybody that you remember this meeting with the agents and the
photographic spread because they had interrupted your plans to
meet another reporter who wanted to talk to you about your
story?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was that reporter?
A. I don't recall offhand.
Q. Do you remember, Mr. Davis, how many different reporters
you've spoken to since the time that you made this delivery?
A. A dozen or more.
Q. Washington Post, we've already talked about.
A. Right.
Q. Dallas Morning News for sure?
A. Correct.
Q. Kansas City Star?
A. Sure.
Q. And a number of correspondents for television stations;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. One of those meetings with a television correspondent took
place on the anniversary, the first anniversary, Mr. Davis, of
the Oklahoma City bombing. Do you recall?
A. Yes.
Q. You recall there was a flood of publicity around the
anniversary, news stories about the bombing?
John Davis - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. The developments in the investigation, progress of the
case; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you were invited to be interviewed; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. But they didn't want to just hear your story, did they,
Mr. Davis? They wanted you to sit down with a composite
artist; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And recall all the details about this person, so much so
that a composite, a facial composite, could be drawn up;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you did that? You cooperated with them?
A. Yes.
Q. At any point in time before then, Mr. Davis, had you
volunteered or told the FBI: I have now enough information in
my mind about this person's facial features, I can help, I can
sit down and work with your composite artist and come up with a
sketch?
A. No.
Q. But when the television station called, you agreed, did you
not, to meet with them?
A. Yes.
John Davis - Cross
Q. You left Junction City; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Drove up all the way to Topeka?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you spend a weekend with those people?
A. No, I did not.
Q. How much time did you spend with the composite artists?
A. About four hours in the afternoon, and then we went to
Topeka; and I was back at work by 11 that evening.
Q. And the composite artist was a woman named Jeanne Boylan?
A. Correct.
Q. And you took your time going through your memory, did you
not, with Miss Boylan about the details of this customer's
face?
A. Yes.
Q. And spent many hours, as you described, coming up with your
best description of the person, facial representation of the
person, you had delivered that bag to; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Let me show you Government Exhibit 1629.
Do you see that, Mr. Davis?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that composite the result of your meeting with
Jeanne Boylan on or about the anniversary of the bombing?
A. Yes, it is.
John Davis - Cross
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Government
Exhibit 1629.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. You may publish it, if you
wish.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Davis, this composite is the result of your work with
Jeanne Boylan; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Is that your testimony?
At any point in time, Mr. Davis, have you taken a good
close look at your composite, Government Exhibit 1629, and
compared it to the Un. Sub. 1 composite that was shown to you
by the police officers on Friday, April 21?
A. I don't think I consciously have sat down with both of them
in front of me, no.
Q. Would you do that now.
Mr. Davis, would you agree with me that there is
virtually no similarity between your composite and the Un. Sub.
1 composite?
A. No.
Q. They are quite different, are they not?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Davis, I have just a couple final questions, if you
John Davis - Cross
don't mind.
You told the officers on Friday, April 21, that one
thing you were sure of is that there was one man and one man
only in Room 25; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Have you ever, Mr. Davis, said to anybody that there was
more than one person in that room?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Davis, take a look at this dark-haired woman back here
at the second table. Have you ever met her before?
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. Do you remember in September of 1996, on an occasion that
Mr. Woods asked you about, staying at the Burnsley Hotel?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Davis, do you remember meeting the bartender at the
Burnsley Hotel?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you in that visit to Denver, Mr. Davis, tell the
bartender you saw two people in Room 25?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. You deny that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you deny in equal fashion, Mr. Davis, having made the
statement to Jeanne Boylan, the composite artist that you spent
several hours with, in April of 1996, that Tim McVeigh, in
John Davis - Cross
addition to your composite person, was in Room 25?
A. Yes, I emphatically deny that.
MR. MACKEY: Thanks, Mr. Davis.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Mr. Davis, follow-up on the question: I'm not quite sure
what he was asking. The dark-haired lady: Was that the
bartender at the Burnsley?
A. No. I do not believe so.
MR. MACKEY: I agree with that, your Honor.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. I'm not sure what the connection was. But you've never met
this lady, have you?
A. Not that I can recall, no.
Q. She's not met you?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. You know whether or not she lives at the Burnsley?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Mr. Mackey asked you did you try to help the
officers. Do you recall those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. And on Tuesday, you know -- you were interviewed on Friday,
April 21. Then on Tuesday, the 25th, when they showed you the
John Davis - Redirect
photo lineup? Do you recall that date?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you think that you were trying to help the
officers when you told them that, "Look, my recollection is
it's different than what the picture of McVeigh is in the
paper"?
A. Yes.
Q. Have your interviews with the Government from that date
been sort of the tenor that you've just went through with
Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: To some extent, yes, they have.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Has the Government -- have you met with these agents here
at the table, Mr. Hersley and Mr. Tongate?
A. Yes.
Q. How many occasions?
A. Several occasions.
Q. Have they told you how important this case is?
A. Yes.
Q. Have they discussed your duty as a witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you been encouraged to change your testimony?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
John Davis - Redirect
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Not overtly, no.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. What do you mean by "not overtly"?
A. The process of giving an oral description of the person I
delivered the food to, the number of times that that has been
gone back over, rapidly in succession, and to still be asked
that same question consistently when my answer remains
consistent to me feels like the response they receive is not
the one they would like and that we'll go over this again and
again and again.
Q. Okay. How many times have you gone over it with them?
A. I can't put a number on it.
Q. Pardon me?
A. I couldn't put a number on it.
Q. Is it over 20?
A. I'm sure.
Q. Now, Mr. Mackey asked you about the contacts with the
press. Did you ever initiate contact with the press?
A. No.
Q. He showed you newspaper articles. Have you read newspaper
articles about this case from the day it happened?
A. I can't say with certainty that I have from the day it
occurred, no.
Q. Okay. Have you seen quotes from anonymous federal law
John Davis - Redirect
enforcement authorities giving details of the case?
A. I may, or may have.
Q. Have you seen that every witness the Government talks to
then gets contacted by the press?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Did you initiate any contact with the press?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did the -- contact with the press happen shortly after your
interview with the Government agents?
A. Yes.
Q. And they -- the press initiated the contact with you?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. When Miss Boylan did that sketch, did you advise her
that that was inaccurate in any way?
A. I did not see the final sketch.
Q. The sketch that you saw, the final one -- excuse me.
What sketch did you see before it became final?
A. We had roughed in some of the facial features. She had not
completed the final shading.
Q. Did you ever indicate to her that it was as dark as is
portrayed in that sketch?
A. No.
Q. Did she ever tell you why she was going to do any
John Davis - Redirect
particular shading?
A. I don't believe that -- I don't know whether it was herself
or the producer that was working on that. My understanding was
that the final composite would be darker several shades so that
after it went through several generations of copying, it would
lighten up and still look the way it needed to.
Q. Did you ever describe the individual as that dark as is
portrayed in that sketch?
A. No.
Q. Is it accurate as to the darkness?
A. No.
Q. As to the length of hair, is it accurate?
A. Fairly accurate. I never got out a ruler and measured --
Q. Sure.
A. -- the person's hair.
Q. Was -- the individual that you met at that room that night,
did he have a burr haircut?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you deal with a individual and you give the food and
get the money, do you look at the individual in the face?
A. Usually, yes.
Q. Okay. And did you tell the officers as soon as you could
that your recollection is this is not the same person as Tim
McVeigh?
A. Yes.
John Davis - Redirect
Q. Did you think that you were trying to help them?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get the feeling that after that point that you
haven't helped them?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Davis. No further
questions.
MR. MACKEY: Just a couple follow-up questions.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Davis, you have been asked to go over this transaction
a number of times, have you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And I heard you tell the jury that you can't quite
understand that because you have been consistent from the
beginning about your recall.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what you told the jury? Is there anything
consistent, Mr. Davis, about first telling the police officers
"I can't recall faces" and later coming up with your composite
drawing?
A. Initial answer would be no.
Q. Just one final question, Mr. Davis. You looked at this
John Davis - Recross
order form for delivery to Room 25, have you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is for one order and one order only; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. One customer and one customer only?
A. I would assume so, yes.
Q. Room 25 at the Dreamland?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: That's all.
MR. WOODS: Thank you. He may be excused.
THE COURT: Are you excusing -- all right.
Agreed?
MR. MACKEY: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Davis. You're
excused.
Members of the jury, we'll take our recess. We went
longer than we sometimes do, but sometimes, you know, we try to
take these recesses sort of according to the flow of the
testimony.
So now we'll break for 20 minutes as has been our
custom, and of course please continue to follow the cautions
given about recesses: Avoiding discussion of the case among
yourselves and others, keeping open minds and waiting till
you've heard it all before you -- as you know that you must,
before you talk about it with other jurors. And of course you
must not talk about it with anyone who is not a juror at any
time.
You're excused now for 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:46 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. We'll be in recess.
(Recess at 10:47 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 11:05 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 11:06 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Next witness.
MR. TIGAR: Yes. We're calling Mr. Richard Reyna,
your Honor. He is in the court with the consent of the
Government.
THE COURT: All right. If you'll come forward and be
sworn, please.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Richard Reyna affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Richard Reyna, R-E-Y-N-A.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Richard Reyna - Direct
Q. Mr. Reyna, what kind of work do you do, sir?
A. Private investigator, sir.
Q. How long have you been in that business?
A. I went from a police officer to a private investigator, so
it's been since 1973.
Q. And before 1973, you were a police officer?
A. No, sir. I started as a police officer in 1973.
Q. I see.
A. And I -- in 1985, I began to do this sort of business.
Q. Now, in 1995, sir, were you doing some investigations
connected with the Oklahoma City bombing case?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. And in the course of doing that, did you meet Mr. Roger
Moore?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell the jury when you met Mr. Moore.
A. If I may refer to my report?
MR. TIGAR: Yes.
Your Honor --
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Do you need that to refresh your recollection?
A. Just on the date, sir.
Q. Go ahead.
A. September 30 of '95.
Q. Where did you meet him, sir?
Richard Reyna - Direct
A. I met Mr. Moore at the Sands Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas,
Nevada.
Q. Did you have more than one meeting with him, or just one?
A. I had two.
Q. Will you tell the jury, please, the dates of those two
meetings.
A. The first meeting was September 30, 1995. The second
meeting was October 1, 1995.
Q. And did he discuss the events that he said had happened to
him on the 5th of November, 1994?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he say anything about what -- whether he would or could
hurt Timothy McVeigh?
A. He said it both ways. He said he would not hurt Tim
McVeigh and he could not hurt Tim McVeigh.
Q. Did he say anything about whose guns were stolen?
A. He said that only his weapons were stolen.
Q. Did he express surprise at that?
A. He was surprised that the other weapons were not touched.
Q. And did he say anything about weapons that he had had in
his house and a search warrant? Did he say anything on that
subject?
A. He mentioned that it's a good thing that a search warrant
had not been executed in his home a few days before because he
had more weapons than the people that -- the Davidian people.
Richard Reyna - Direct
Q. Now, did he express -- what did he say was the day on which
he was referring to when he said they were glad -- he was glad
that the FBI had not executed a search warrant?
A. Okay.
Q. If you need to refresh your recollection, sir, it's at the
next-to-last page, the last full paragraph.
A. He just said that he was glad that the FBI did not execute
a search warrant at his place on the day after the bombing in
Oklahoma City because at the time he had more weapons in his
home than were found at the Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.
MR. TIGAR: No further questions. Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Any, Ms. Wilkinson?
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Reyna.
A. Good morning.
Q. We just met during the break, didn't we?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. You were kind enough to speak to me before you took the
stand?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Thank you. You were hired or assigned by the court as an
investigator for Mr. McVeigh; isn't that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Richard Reyna - Cross
Q. And as an investigator, part of your job was to go out and
interview witnesses?
A. That's correct.
Q. And when you did that, I assume you were trying to figure
out what they had really said and what had really occurred?
A. That is correct.
Q. Trying to find out the truth?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And when you questioned these witnesses, including
Mr. Moore, you went over the details of their prior statements?
A. That's correct.
Q. Went over the events?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. With Mr. Moore, you talked about the robbery on November 5,
1994?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you asked him the details of that robbery?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And he told you those details, did he not?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. He told you that the robber had a ski mask on, didn't he?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. He told you the robber had a shotgun?
A. Yes.
Q. And he told you that he was duct-taped across the eyes?
Richard Reyna - Cross
A. He was duct-taped.
Q. Told you he couldn't identify the robber?
A. He could not identify him.
Q. Didn't he tell you that he was sure it was not Timothy
McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after your interviews with Mr. Moore, you wrote up a
report?
A. That's correct.
Q. That's your practice, is it not?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you write up a summary of what the witness told you;
correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Provide that to the attorneys to assist them?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And when you do that, you try and include all of the
relevant information, don't you?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And sometimes you use your own words to describe what
happened -- to summarize?
A. To summarize, yes. Sometimes.
Q. And sometimes you use quotes to say what the person said
exactly?
A. That's correct.
Richard Reyna - Cross
Q. And we can distinguish that by reviewing your report and
see where you put quotes and where you did not?
A. That's correct.
Q. But you do try and include all the information that the
witness told you; correct?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. And did you try and do that when you wrote up your
interview of Mr. Moore?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Could you look at your report -- or can you recall before
you look at your report whether you ever wrote anywhere in this
report that Mr. Moore told you that the robber had a ski mask
on?
Do you need to look at your report?
A. I probably -- I do.
Q. Go ahead.
A. I remember that there was a mention . . .
I did not include that in there.
Q. In fact, you didn't include most of the details of the
robbery in this report, did you?
A. I didn't. I just -- I went over with Mr. Moore what he had
told the police.
Q. And it was consistent with what you had read in other
reports. Is that correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Richard Reyna - Cross
Q. So you decided not to include any of that detail in your
report?
A. That is correct.
Q. So this is not a complete summary of your interview of
Mr. Moore, is it?
A. Obviously it is not.
Q. And you selected certain things to put in this report, did
you not?
A. That is correct. And sometimes there are things that
sometimes one forgets.
Q. You didn't put any of the real details of the robbery in
here, did you?
A. No, because I had attached the police reports as to what he
told the police.
Q. Do you mention that attachment in your report?
A. No, I do not.
Q. So if I just have the report, I wouldn't know about the
attachment. Is that right?
A. Well, the attachment was given to me by the office. They
already knew about it, so --
Q. But you didn't incorporate that attachment in your main
report?
A. No, ma'am, I did not.
Q. Now, you've told us that when you put some of the
information in this report, you use your own words to summarize
Richard Reyna - Cross
what Mr. Moore told you; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you talked about whether he could or would not
hurt Mr. McVeigh, you didn't use quotes on those words, did
you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And was it your understanding from speaking to Mr. Moore
that he was trying -- that he was telling you that he could not
hurt Mr. McVeigh because he didn't -- he couldn't identify the
robber?
A. That's what I felt at the time, yes.
Q. That's what you understood from him?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And he made it clear to you that he could not -- that he
was sure Mr. McVeigh was not the robber?
A. He was sure that he was not the robber.
Q. He also made it clear to you, did he not, that he believed
Mr. McVeigh was involved with the robbery?
A. He thought -- he suspected it.
Q. And you included that in your report, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you also mentioned in your report, did you not, about
this search warrant and the comments about the guns being in
his home?
A. That's correct.
Richard Reyna - Cross
Q. You didn't use quotations when you put that in your report,
did you?
A. Understand, please, sometimes when I use quotations,
it's -- I want to get it to the attention of that -- the
reader. It's something that I think is really interesting. On
the other hand, sometimes I fail to do that and I can't put a
verbatim word for word as to what this -- and how this person
told me. It was very difficult. We were going from one
subject to another, so I was trying to write everything down as
best as I could.
Q. But you can't say it's a verbatim rendition of his
statements, can you?
A. It is not verbatim. It's generally what he told me.
Q. And again, we focus on the quotes as things that he told
you that you remember he told you directly; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you take notes when you were interviewing
Mr. Moore?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you bring your notes to court?
A. I told you that -- I have no objections. I'll gladly
search for them and send them. I'll give you whatever I've
got.
Q. They haven't been provided to the Government thus far;
correct?
Richard Reyna - Cross
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Mr. Reyna, just one more question: When you reviewed the
police reports of the robbery and you listened to Mr. Moore's
statements, were there any inaccuracies that you recall?
A. No.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Reyna, are you aware of the discovery rules under which
items are provided to the Government?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And do you know of your own knowledge whether or not
typewritten reports or only -- or agent field notes are
supposed to be provided? Do you know one way or another in
this case?
A. Typewritten reports. That's what we've always been
receiving.
Q. Now, did Mr. -- Government counsel asked you about things
that Mr. Moore said. Do you remember him saying anything about
insurance?
A. Yes. He said that he didn't have insurance to cover the
loss.
Q. Did he say anything about the effect of the robbery on him?
A. If I could refer back to my report, please.
Richard Reyna - Redirect
Q. Yes. Next-to-last page, the second full paragraph from the
bottom.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, if we could just make it
clear whether he's reading from the report, or refreshing his
recollection.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Yes. Are you refreshing your recollection?
A. I'm going to refresh my recollection. I won't read from
the report.
Q. With your recollection thus refreshed, can you tell us?
A. I haven't found it yet. Sorry, sir.
Q. Second paragraph from the bottom.
A. All right.
And your question again, please.
Q. Yes. Did he say anything about the effect of the robbery
on him?
A. Well, he just said that it ruined him or would ruin him.
Q. Now, so that we're clear here, when is the first time that
you and I spoke about your coming to testify here today?
A. Last night.
Q. And when did you get here?
A. This morning.
Q. You were asked questions about quotes that -- from
Mr. Moore. Is that correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Richard Reyna - Redirect
Q. Now, would you look, please, at the second-to-last page at
about the middle where it says, "Mr. Moore commented." Do you
see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you see the quote marks there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that what he said to you that you put in quotes
there?
A. That is exactly what he said to me.
Q. Will you read it, please.
A. "The prosecution better not count on me for very much,
because I will not have very much to say because I don't know
anything. I cannot even identify who it was that robbed me."
Q. And did he -- did Mr. Moore say how many people it was that
robbed him?
A. Mr. Moore suggested it could have been two people.
MR. TIGAR: No further questions. Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Ms. Wilkinson?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Reyna, Mr. Moore has been consistent with you that he
could never identify who the robber is; is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And when he told you that the robbery had ruined him, did
Richard Reyna - Recross
he say that it financially ruined him?
A. I would think financially. That's the way I took it.
Q. Well, do you recall what you wrote in your report about
comparing his life to Jennifer McVeigh's life?
A. Well --
Q. How did he say it in that context, Mr. Reyna?
A. Like it ruined him personally, his life.
Q. What was your understanding of that comment? Wasn't it --
didn't you tell me that your understanding was that it was
being associated with this case and the publicity?
MR. TIGAR: Object to "didn't you tell me," your
Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Mr. Reyna, haven't you said in the past that your
understanding of his statement was that he was concerned about
being associated with this case and the publicity surrounding
this case?
A. That's the way I interpreted it.
Q. That's how you described how he was ruined?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, you told Mr. Tigar that Mr. Moore suggested to you
that two people could have been involved?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did he tell you that he only saw one robber -- saw one
Richard Reyna - Recross
robber?
A. He didn't see anyone. He just felt that there was one
because one person did all the talking.
Q. Well, he saw the person in the ski mask, didn't he?
A. Well, initially, yes.
Q. So he did see one person?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And didn't he tell you that he heard the first person refer
to a second person?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Did he say that he could have heard a second person?
A. He didn't tell me that he could have heard. He just
suspected that there was someone else.
Q. But he told you that he had never seen a second person;
isn't that right?
A. That's correct.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions.
MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry to make it -- but it is -- just
what was raised in that.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Mr. Reyna, would you look, please, at the second page of
your report, the third paragraph. Do you see a reference there
to "life being wrecked"?
A. Yes, sir.
Richard Reyna - Redirect
Q. And that's the one -- that's the reference that includes
the reference to Jennifer McVeigh; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, did the subject of the effect of this on his
life come up again a second time?
A. No. He just mentioned -- the second time mentioned the
loss of the weapons.
Q. Okay. And would you look at the next-to-last page, sir,
the second paragraph from the bottom.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, you see "Mr. Moore stated," etc., there. Using that,
does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not the
subject of the effect of the robbery on him came up a second
time?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor. The witness
didn't say he didn't recall. He said it didn't occur.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Again, please.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Did the subject of the effect of the robbery on him come up
a second time in your conversation with him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that on a different day from the first time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And the -- on the second day, tell the jury what did
Richard Reyna - Redirect
he say the effect of the robbery on him was?
MS. WILKINSON: Objection, your Honor, if he's going
to read from the report.
THE COURT: According to your recollection.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. According to your recollection.
A. According to my recollection, he said he didn't have any
insurance and this would ruin him.
MR. TIGAR: No further questions. Thank you,
Mr. Reyna.
MS. WILKINSON: He can be excused, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: He may be excused.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. Mary Martinez.
Mr. Thurschwell will question.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NEUREITER: Dale Carlson.
MR. WOODS: I'm sorry. We had a change of order.
It's Dale Carlson.
THE COURT: Dale Carlson?
MR. WOODS: And Mr. Neureiter will question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Dale Carlson affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Dale Carlson, C-A-R-L-S-O-N.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEUREITER:
Q. Mr. Carlson, you and I have never met, have we?
A. Pardon me?
Q. You and I have never met, have we?
A. No.
Q. My name is Reid Neureiter, and I've been appointed to help
out Terry Nichols.
Where are you from, Mr. Carlson?
A. Herington.
Q. Is that Herington, Kansas?
A. Yes, ma'am -- yes, sir.
Q. How old are you?
A. 71.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. Oil field.
Q. Are you retired now?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Harry Herbel?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know Mr. Herbel?
A. When I retired from the oil field, I worked for him just
Dale Carlson - Direct
part-time.
Q. What kind of a business is Mr. Herbel in?
A. Surplus.
Q. And where does he have that business?
A. In Herington.
Q. Can you tell us what kind of facilities he has there in
Herington to do his surplus business?
A. He's got two facilities.
Q. What are they called?
A. Surplus City and Surplus Outlet.
Q. What are the locations of those two -- those two
businesses?
A. One of them is on 11th Street -- or -- I don't know for
sure. I think one is on 5th Street and another one is on
Trapp, I think it is.
Q. On Trapp Street?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you work for him on occasion?
A. Yes.
Q. And tell us about how you work for Mr. Herbel.
A. Well, I -- when I retired, why, he couldn't get anybody to
work in his carpet deal, so he said he wanted me to go there
for a couple months. And I stayed there too long. My wife got
sick and got cancer, and so she died in November, '9 -- let's
see. A year ago. I took care of her for eight months before
Dale Carlson - Direct
that, so I had to quit Herbel.
Q. In April of 1995, were you helping out Mr. Herbel in hi