The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Terry Nichols
Wednesday, December 31, 1997 (afternoon)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury: Volume 149)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:25 p.m., on the 31st day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, and RANDAL SENGEL, Assistant U.S.
Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park
Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing
for the plaintiff.
LARRY MACKEY, SEAN CONNELLY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY
MEARNS, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, REID
NEUREITER, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln
Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for
Defendant Nichols.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:25 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
MR. MACKEY: May we approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 149B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(Jury in at 1:26 p.m.)
(In open court:)
THE COURT: All right. Your next witness.
MR. MACKEY: Mr. William Dilly.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(William Dilly affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: William David Dilly, D-I-L-L-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Sengel.
MR. SENGEL: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. Where are you from, Mr. Dilly?
A. I'm originally from West Virginia, but I -- I live in Ohio
now.
Q. All right. Where in Ohio do you live?
A. Barnesville, Ohio.
Q. Where is that, approximately, in the state?
A. It's central -- east central, real close to the West
Virginia-Pennsylvania border.
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Q. All right. Do you live there with your family?
A. Uh-huh. Yes, I do.
Q. And who is in your family?
A. I have a wife and I have three children.
Q. All right. Now, you told us you grew up in West Virginia.
And in great suspense here, you're not from Oklahoma; right?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. All right, sir. Where do you work in Ohio?
A. I work -- I'm a correctional officer at a -- a division of
corrections prison. State prison.
Q. All right. How long have you been in that position?
A. Five years.
Q. All right. Prior to that, were you in the military?
A. Well, prior to that, I worked in the prison system in West
Virginia; but prior to that, I was in the military.
Q. All right. And when did you enlist in the Army?
A. May of 1988.
Q. All right. And when you enlisted, where did you go for
basic training?
A. I went to Fort Benning, Harmony Church.
Q. And were you in the infantry?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. When you went to basic training at Fort Benning, did you go
into basic training with Terry Nichols?
A. Yes, I did.
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Q. And did you also go into basic training with Timothy
McVeigh?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. When you went into basic training, did you meet
these men as you went down to Fort Benning?
A. Yes. Yes, I met them -- I met them the first day,
actually. Both of them.
Q. All right. The unit you were in there in Fort Benning,
what was it called? Was it a plan that you were in that had a
certain name?
A. Yes, sir. We were in a cohort unit. It was an experiment
the Army used for a couple years to keep the same guys together
for their whole term of service. They have -- they don't have
it anymore. It didn't work. But the plan was that guys would
go through basic training together, AIT, go to the same
permanent duty station all the way till the time they ETS'd out
of the service.
Q. All right. Now, you said AIT. What is that?
A. Advanced infantry training. You have basic training, and
then you have advanced infantry training.
Q. All right. When you arrived in Fort Benning, then, in your
cohort unit, did you see Mr. Nichols and Mr. McVeigh on a daily
basis there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see the relationship between Mr. Nichols and
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Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. They were very close friends.
Q. All right. And you say they were very close friends. Did
they develop a friendship early on at basic?
A. Yes. It was kind of weird. Actually, it was like they
were best friends a couple days after they met. They hung
around together. Actually, Tim kind of followed Terry around.
Terry was made platoon leader as soon as we got there.
Q. All right.
A. He was the oldest member of our group coming in; and we had
a lot of young guys and he carried himself really well, so he
was platoon leader from the start.
Q. All right. Now, you say "platoon leader." Then how many
men were normally in a platoon?
A. Our platoon, I think -- I'm not sure. Maybe 80. 70.
Q. As a platoon leader, what -- what did they do at basic
training?
A. They acted basically as a platoon sergeant would in a
regular unit. He would head the formations. He would be --
our first formation, he would be at the front of the formation.
He would march us. He would -- you know, it was his
responsibility to make sure we were where we were supposed to
be.
Q. At basic training, were there other men that were also made
platoon leaders?
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A. Yes. Each -- we had four platoons in our company; and yes,
each platoon had a platoon leader.
Q. How long was basic training?
A. Total with the AIT -- in infantry, they do it together, so
four months.
Q. All right. For that period of four months, did Mr. Nichols
remain platoon leader for that entire period of time?
A. Yes. From start to finish.
Q. For the other platoon leaders, did they stay in that
position for the entire four months?
A. No. None of the other ones did. No. They all had two or
three.
Q. All right. Did Mr. Nichols, in fact, receive some awards
at basic training?
A. Yes. Terry was our outstanding soldier in our basic class.
Q. All right. At basic training, did -- did Mr. Nichols and
Mr. McVeigh seem to be together on a daily basis?
A. Yes. They -- like I said, they were very close friends.
By the end of basic, it was -- they were like -- almost like
brothers. They -- Tim really, as I say -- when he first came
in, he was really meek. He kind of looked to Terry for
support. He was kind of scared -- like kind of almost looked
like a junior high kid, he looked so young. And Terry -- Terry
was -- he came in and he really -- right from the start, you
know, he took the platoon leader job, and he really -- like I
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said, he was our outstanding soldier. He was. He was our
outstanding soldier.
Q. Yeah. Approximately how old was Mr. Nichols at basic
training; do you remember?
A. Oh, I would guess -- he was six years older than me. And I
was one of the older guys there. So he would have been
probably 32, 33.
Q. All right. And how old was Timothy McVeigh?
A. I would think 18 or 19. Maybe 19.
Q. All right. So you -- you mentioned they were almost like
brothers. Did it seem like Mr. McVeigh looked up to
Mr. Nichols like an older brother?
A. Yes. It was almost like big brother-little brother --
MR. TIGAR: Objection. Leading.
THE COURT: Yes. Let's avoid the leading.
MR. SENGEL: All right. Certainly, your Honor.
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. Now, in observing the relationship, then, between these two
men, was one of them the leader of the two?
A. I think Tim looked up to Terry. Like I said, he was really
meek when he first got there. Really skinny. Even skinnier --
I mean, he was a thin person, but he was extremely skinny when
he first got to basic. He built up after we got there. And he
was scared. A lot of the guys pushed around on him a lot and
stuff, so he looked to Terry kind of for support.
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Q. And between the two of them -- I mean, as I asked you if
you -- if there was a leader between the two of them, who was
it?
A. Well, I would say Terry. Terry was the leader of our whole
platoon.
Q. All right.
A. Everyone looked at him as a leader.
Q. Now, based on your interactions with Mr. Nichols as platoon
leader, would you say he was an intelligent man?
A. Yes. I'd say he was very intelligent.
Q. All right. You mentioned, of course, the cohort unit was
assigned together. Did you all go to Fort Riley together?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. All right. And at Fort Riley, did you at some point become
the roommate of Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes. We came NCO's at the same time, and we were the first
two soldiers in our cohort unit to become NCO's, so they put us
in an NCO room together.
Q. And again, what's an NCO?
A. Noncommissioned officer.
Q. All right. When you became roommates with Timothy McVeigh,
was Terry Nichols still in the service at that time?
A. No. He was not. He had already -- I heard he had got a
hardship, but he had left the service.
Q. All right. While you were roommates with Mr. McVeigh --
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how long were the two of you roommates?
A. A little over a year.
Q. All right. Up until what time period?
A. Until we went to the Gulf War.
Q. And to Desert Storm?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. During the time period that you lived with
Mr. McVeigh, then, approximately how long was that before you
went to Desert Storm?
A. It was a year. We actually roomed together for a while
with -- before we became NCO's, but alone, we were in a room
together at least ten months.
Q. All right. During the time period that you were a roommate
with Mr. McVeigh, did he keep in contact with Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes. He corresponded with Mr. Nichols and -- both written
and phone calls. On a regular basis, yes.
Q. How long -- how often did they communicate?
A. Of course, we were in the field a lot, you know. It would
vary. When we were at the barracks, he -- he -- I'd say at
least on a weekly basis.
Q. Were these phone calls, or letters, or --
A. He would -- you know, Tim would tell me he had called him
or whatever, or he had wrote him. I know like one time, he got
some -- is it beef jerky -- deer jerky that Terry had sent him.
So, you know, they corresponded. I don't know exactly day to
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day how much, but it was a lot, because Tim would tell me, you
know, like, you know, what -- what had been going on. I'd ask
him every now and then what Terry was, you know, doing.
Q. This frequent communication, did it continue for the entire
time period that you were Mr. McVeigh's roommate?
A. Yes. He kept in contact with him in that time frame, yes.
Q. All right. After you went to Desert Storm, did there
continue to be contact?
A. Yes. There was several times where he told me he was
going to correspond with --
MR. TIGAR: I'd like to register an objection to the
hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes. There was several times that he
told me he was going to tell Terry things that we were doing.
So, you know, I'm -- unless he lied to me, I'm assuming that he
did.
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. All right. After Desert Storm, did you yourself get out of
the service?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. Took an early discharge?
A. Well, actually, I was past my ETS time because I had a stop
loss for the war, but I cleared as soon as I got back.
MR. SENGEL: All right, sir.
Thank you. I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dilly. My name is Michael Tigar. I'm
one of Terry Nichols' lawyers.
At 5:28 p.m. on the 21st of April, 1995, you called
the FBI hot line; is that correct, sir?
A. I don't know the exact time; but, yes, I did call the FBI
hot line. Yes, sir.
Q. You called them to say that you had roomed with Timothy
McVeigh for a year when you were stationed in Fort Riley,
Kansas; correct?
A. Yes. I'm sure I told them that, yes.
Q. Yes. You didn't mention Mr. Nichols' name, did you, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. You told the FBI that Mr. McVeigh was a white
supremacist; correct?
A. I don't think I actually said that. They asked me many
questions. I'm not -- I really cannot remember my exact words.
MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. Showing you hot line Lead No. 3354. I know that's not your
document. Could you look at that paragraph, please, and tell
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me if that refreshes your recollection you told them he was a
white supremacist or supremist.
A. I don't remember saying that. I do remember saying about
the survivalism.
Q. Now, do you remember telling them that Mr. McVeigh was an
ammunition and gun freak?
A. Yes, I did. I told them he was very interested in them.
Q. Do you remember telling them that Mr. McVeigh had rented a
storage shed in Junction City, Kansas?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. When he showed up in the Army, he had his own personal
weapons, didn't he? Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q. And he was not permitted to bring his own personal weapons
on base, was he?
A. No one was, no.
Q. And so he rented this storage shed to keep his weapons;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And in that storage shed, he kept other weapons, didn't he,
that he later obtained?
A. Yes, he bought and sold, you know. He got some, got rid of
some.
William Dilly - Cross
Q. So this young soldier was already in the gun-trading-and-
collecting business when he was in the Army; correct?
A. I don't know if he actually was in the gun trading -- he
was -- yeah. He was into the weapons before.
Q. Stored black powder in the shed, didn't he, sir?
A. Yes. He had black powder.
Q. Stored manuals on how to build explosive devices, didn't
he, sir?
A. I'm not sure about that. I mean, he had the survivalism
magazines. I don't know if he really stored them there.
Really, you could have the magazines on base.
Q. Well, did you ever see Mr. McVeigh with documents in his
possession relating to how to build weapons or bombs?
A. Many -- he used -- had Soldier of Fortune and -- I can't
remember the exact names of some of the magazines, but almost
all those magazines have that in the back of them. They will
have storage --
Q. Okay. And he stored -- so he stored things there that had
information how to build bombs; correct?
A. Yes. Those magazines do have that information.
Q. And in addition to that, he stored survivalist materials;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, Mr. McVeigh did talk to you during the
time that you roomed with him that he was extremely upset
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regarding the appointment of two African-Americans to a special
sniper school. Do you remember that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you interpret his opposition to Afr --
Mr. McVeigh's opposition to African-Americans being appointed
to this sniper school as reflecting some white supremist
attitudes?
A. He was upset about it. He was actually the most qualified
person for the job. He was a very good shot. He was just very
surprised that he didn't get one of them.
Q. He was bitter about it?
A. Oh, he was upset because, you know, you work hard to get
those scores, you know. Whenever you're trying to get a
school, you get upset if you don't get it.
Q. All right. Now, in addition to that, Mr. McVeigh told you
that he had purchased, with a friend in Buffalo, 10 acres;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And that he and his -- did he ever mention the name David
Darlak?
A. He might have, but it didn't stick with me. I'm not sure.
Q. Did he say that he was going to get together with this
friend and build bomb shelters after he got out of the service?
A. He said he was going to -- they, I guess, had planned to
make a survivalist-type place there in case something happened.
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They would have a survivalist camp.
Q. Okay. And that was with whoever his friend was in Buffalo;
correct?
A. Yes. I can't remember his name exactly.
Q. All right. You called the FBI hot line a second time on
the evening of April 21, did you not, sir?
A. I may have.
Q. And do you remember just mentioning more about Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. Because I was -- you know, it had been a long time
since I'd seen Mr. McVeigh. And when I first saw him coming
out of the courtroom, I just thought I should call quick
because I knew my name would pop up. Then I recollected more
things because I was kind of -- kind of -- I just got off work
and saw it, and I was just like --
Q. That's him; right? You saw him, you said, Well, that's the
McVeigh I know?
A. Well, you know, actually, I even -- I even waited to see it
again to make -- you know, it was so overwhelming that I just
didn't want to believe it; and then when I saw it again, I --
Q. And the second time you called, you didn't mention Terry
Nichols' name either, did you, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you called again at 7:12 p.m. on the 22d of April, a
Saturday. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
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Q. And that time, you did give them another name, didn't you?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Do you remember the name "Joel Johnson"?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Do you remember giving them the name "Joel
Johnson"?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell the FBI that Mr. McVeigh had a good friend and
an Army buddy who was dishonorably discharged and that that was
Joel Johnson?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was Joel Johnson, this Army buddy of
Mr. McVeigh's, dishonorably discharged for?
A. Discharging a weapon.
Q. Well, don't you all do that in the Army?
A. Well, he discharged a weapon that he had in his poss -- a
personal weapon on base, and you're not allowed to have
personal weapons on base.
Q. Fired it out the barracks window?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. No enemies in sight?
A. There was no enemies in sight.
Q. All right. So this Army buddy of Mr. McVeigh's, Joel
Johnson, what description did you give of him?
A. When -- the -- they had come to talk to me on the phone.
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The FBI contacted me after I called the hot line.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. They asked me -- they were asking me questions about if
I -- you know, anyone that was very interested in explosive
devices. And he was. He made black-powder bombs. That's the
reason I gave them his name.
Q. Oh, Joel Johnson did?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Mr. McVeigh --
A. He would go out on farms. But he enjoyed that, you know,
so that's the reason I gave his name.
Q. Okay. And he was -- but you didn't mention Mr. Nichols'
name in this conversation with the FBI on the 22d, did you,
sir?
A. No, I did not.
Q. All right. Now, when you all got down there to -- where
did you do your basic? In Fort Benning?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were a part of the cohort unit?
A. Yes. Cohort unit.
Q. And Mr. Nichols was the oldest person there; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And what -- you were next oldest in your group that you
knew?
A. Actually, I think there was a Private Anderson that was a
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couple -- myself and a Private Anderson were the next, yes.
Q. And Mr. Nichols got made platoon leader, do you think in
part because he was older than the others?
A. More mature, yes.
Q. And he did a good job as a soldier, didn't he, sir?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Now, is it the same in the Army as in the branch of service
I served; you're supposed to look up to your leader that you
have in basic training?
A. Yes. I looked up to Terry there. I did. I was very
impressed with him. He was a good leader.
Q. Well, you're supposed to look up to your leader, aren't
you, sir?
A. Yes. That's what I -- and I did.
Q. All right. And -- because he's the one that's been
assigned by the military to be responsible for you and march
you around and get you settled and do whatever else platoon
leaders do; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And this was in -- let's see here. This was in May of
1988; right?
A. When we first got there, it was May of 1988.
Q. Now, when did you become aware that Mr. Nichols had a son?
A. It was toward the end of our basic training.
Q. And that was about six weeks in?
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A. No. No. I would say more -- more toward July. Because it
was hot. I mean, it was really hot.
Q. So a couple months, three months?
A. Yeah. A couple months.
Q. Okay. And what did you learn about Mr. Nichols' having
this son?
A. I learned one day because he -- it was really getting hot
and everybody just wore down to -- a certain point in basic
training about halfway through where everybody just -- you
start to give up, you know. And Terry got up in front of us
and gave us a big speech about how, you know, "Yeah, I know
it's bad and I know this is bad." He says, "You know, I've got
a son at home, you know, and I want to go see my son. You
know, and just suck it up, and let's drive on." And I just --
and that's how at first, I heard of his son.
Q. Okay. Now, later, there came a time when Terry actually
went and got custody of his son. You knew that, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And he rented a house there for his son?
A. Yes. I didn't know it was a house, but I knew he rented a
place there.
Q. Did you ever go there where he was taking care of his boy?
A. No, I did not.
Q. But you knew that Terry then had to apply for a
compassionate discharge; correct?
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A. I had heard he had put in a hardship, yes.
Q. And do you know that he got it?
A. I assumed he did. I mean, because he had done nothing to
get kicked out for.
Q. Right. And with his record, it wouldn't surprise you that
he got an honorable discharge, would it?
A. No. Not -- I would expect he would.
Q. And so -- and he got that discharge in what? May of 1989?
A. I don't know the exact month, yes. But it was
approximately -- May or June. That's what I would guess.
Q. When did you all go to Germany together?
A. Oh, I'm trying to think. I'm not really sure. I don't
think Terry went with us to Germany, though.
Q. That was my question. He didn't go with you to Germany,
did he?
A. No.
Q. Now, you and Tim McVeigh and the others went off to
Germany, and Mr. Nichols stayed home because he had his boy;
right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And then you all did something in Germany and got
back to the United States; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, did you serve in Desert Storm?
A. Yes, I did.
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Q. And -- and served with Mr. McVeigh; correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And during this time, Mr. McVeigh -- that you were serving
with Mr. McVeigh, this was after Mr. Nichols had left the Army;
correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir. Quite a bit. A long time after.
Q. Now, how much longer did you and Mr. McVeigh serve together
after Mr. Nichols had gotten a compassionate discharge to go
home and be with his boy?
A. Two years.
Q. Two years?
A. Two years. A little bit more than two years because of the
stop loss.
Q. Now, during that two years you served with Mr. McVeigh, how
would you describe his progress through the ranks? Everybody
comes in as an E1; right?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. What did he make by the time you left him?
A. He was an E5 when he got out of the Army.
Q. Was that pretty good progress for an enlisted person?
A. Yes. It was the same rank I had, yes.
Q. All right. Well, then tell us about yourself. Not
everybody gets to make E5 in that period of time, do they, sir?
A. No. Everyone has a -- I mean, I guess you have a shot.
Everyone has an equal shot. But, you know, only the people who
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get the highest scores and get up -- you have to be -- your
first order has to send you to the board, you know.
Q. And Mr. McVeigh did that; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And he made that progress during this time when you all had
gone to Germany, and then you all fought together in Desert
Storm; right?
A. Correct. Well, you know, he made -- he was always one of
the first ones all the way through. He would -- he was one of
the first specialists. He was, you know, the second corporal
we had in our unit. So he -- he was --
Q. Real hot dog?
A. From the beginning, straight out of basic, he was always
one step ahead of everybody.
Q. Mr. McVeigh was?
A. Yes. Actually, Terry was one of the E2's coming straight
out of basic, also.
Q. I understand. I'm talking about the time after Mr. Nichols
left to take care of his boy. Mr. McVeigh went on and
advanced; correct?
A. Yes. Yes, he did.
Q. Then Mr. McVeigh had a disappointment, didn't he, sir,
about special forces? Did you know about that?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Tell us about --
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A. I wasn't there at the time. I was still at Desert Storm.
Q. Uh-huh. And what did Mr. McVeigh want to achieve in
getting into special forces?
A. Actually, I think -- of course, the special forces itself
is an elite group, but you get to jump in rank. He would have
jumped from E5 to E7, and I think that was his main reason he
wanted to do it.
Q. And he washed out, didn't he?
A. I'm really not -- like I said, I wasn't there. I've heard
three or four different stories on what the deal was. But
myself, I really don't know. I would have to --
Q. When you say you've heard three or four different stories,
when's the last time before today that you ever saw Terry
Nichols?
A. When he left Fort Riley --
Q. 1989?
A. -- in 1989.
Q. Sometime in 1989?
A. Yes.
Q. And of course, after he left, you said that Mr. McVeigh
would tell you that Mr. Nichols had written to him; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You never saw any of those letters, did you?
A. Actually, I did. I think I saw one or two.
Q. You saw one or two letters?
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A. Yes.
Q. Right?
A. I didn't get in his mail.
Q. You didn't get his mail.
A. Yeah.
Q. So all -- basically, other than one or two letters, all you
know about the contact between Mr. Nichols and Mr. McVeigh is
what Mr. McVeigh told you; correct?
A. Correct. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. McVeigh was not hesitant about communicating with
people, was he, about things he cared about? Well, let me --
A. I'm not sure exactly what you're asking me.
Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about the time -- there were times
when you all would go out in the -- on maneuvers where you'd
have to be away from your base or barracks for three or four
days; correct, sir?
A. Usually, 29 days is the way we'd do ours.
Q. Well, on one of those ones where you'd have to be away,
would he -- did he have a book with him, Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. I know what you're talking about now. The Turner
Diaries, yes.
Q. He had The Turner Diaries. Okay. And did he have to
actually make room for it in his pack to be able to carry The
Turner Diaries out there for his overnights?
A. You only got enough room for so much stuff extra in your --
William Dilly - Cross
in your bag. A few things, but not much by the time you take
all your cold-weather gear and everything.
Q. And he chose to put The Turner Diaries in there; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he also urge you, Mr. McVeigh, to read The Turner
Diaries?
A. Yes. He asked me to read it.
Q. Did you read it?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You weren't interested?
A. I -- I was doing my E5 board at the time. I didn't have
time to fool with anything.
Q. I understand, sir. Now, in addition to -- of course,
Mr. McVeigh was a very good friend of yours; correct?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And you roomed together; right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And during the time you roomed together, you would talk
about things; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you -- as a matter of fact, you kept up your friendship
with him, did you not, after he left the Army?
A. After he left the Army?
Q. Yes.
A. I indirectly contacted him a little bit for like a month
William Dilly - Cross
and a half after I got out. But after that, no. Tim never
contacted me -- as a matter of fact, I don't think he contacted
many. I know Private Littleton -- well, he's not Private
anymore. But Littleton, he contacted him a couple times; and
then -- you know, I kept in touch with Littleton and he'd say,
you know, "Tim said hi." But that was basically about the size
of it.
Q. Now, you came forward to testify on Mr. McVeigh's behalf in
his penalty phase, did you not, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, and the -- the FBI came out to see you on the 23d;
correct? Of April?
A. Yes. I'm sure.
Q. Mr. -- Agent Laupert? Do you remember him?
A. Yes. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay. Now, it was at that time that you told him that --
about Mr. Nichols; correct?
A. I'm not sure if that was -- I'm sure it might have been the
first time I said --
Q. Did they ask you about Mr. Nichols, or did you volunteer
the information?
A. I really don't recollect.
Q. And you told them that Mr. McVeigh was a young individual
who looked up to older soldiers like you and like Mr. Nichols;
correct?
William Dilly - Cross
A. Yes. That's true, yes.
Q. He did look up to you, didn't he?
A. Yes, he did. I sponsored him to get his E5, yes.
Q. And he roomed with you; correct, sir?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And he -- do you think he admired the accomplishments that
you had?
A. Admired -- I made it before him. I think he kind of envied
that a little bit.
Q. All right. Envy, admiration.
A. Yes.
Q. But he certainly had your respect; right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And -- I mean, he respected you and you
respected him; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, he even -- despite this relationship that you had with
Mr. McVeigh, did -- did you agree with his politics?
A. No. Not really. I -- I really had no serious views on
politics.
MR. TIGAR: Thank you, Mr. Dilly. No further
questions.
THE COURT: Do you have any redirect?
MR. SENGEL: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The witness, then, I take it,
may be excused?
MR. SENGEL: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that agreed?
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Richeal Thatcher.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Richeal Thatcher affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you state your full name
for the record and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Richeal Thatcher. It's
R-I-C-H-E-A-L, T-H-A-T-C-H-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MR. SENGEL: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. Would you tell us where you live, please, ma'am.
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. And are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Richeal Thatcher - Direct
Q. And how long have you been married?
A. About three-and-a-half years.
Q. All right. I want to ask you about your birth family. And
did you lose a member of your family in the Alfred P. Murrah
Building bombing?
A. My oldest sister.
Q. And what was her name?
A. Robbin.
Q. In addition to Robbin, were there other members of your
birth family?
A. Well, she was pregnant.
Q. No. I'm sorry. I meant other brothers and sisters.
A. In the bombing, no, sir.
Q. No. Pardon me. I'm confusing you. That's my fault.
A. Yeah.
Q. In your birth family, did you have other brothers and
sisters besides Robbin?
A. Uh-huh. I have three sisters and a brother.
Q. All right. Where did your sister work?
A. For the employees' credit union.
Q. All right. Now, your mother and father, do they also live
in Oklahoma City?
A. They live in Bethany.
Q. All right. If you would, please, tell us something about
your family, your mother and father and sisters that you grew
Richeal Thatcher - Direct
up with.
A. Oh, gosh. There are five of us altogether, and we were
born within like a seven-year period, and so we were all really
close. And being military, we moved around a lot, so we
learned to get along well and play together, and we have just
always been close.
Q. Okay. Does your family have the habit of dining together
regularly?
A. Every Sunday. It's like going to church in the morning.
It's -- I don't know when it started. I guess when the first
of us got married and moved away, we -- it -- it just sort of
happened. We all just came back and congregated at Mom and
Dad's for Sunday dinner about 5. And if you're not going to
make it, you call Mom so she doesn't worry. But otherwise,
we're there. There's usually 10 to 15 of us every Sunday.
Q. So did members of the family -- they brought their spouses
along with them?
A. Everybody. Yeah.
Q. Okay. How old was Robbin in April of 1995?
A. 37.
Q. All right. And was she married?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Who was she married to?
A. His name is Ron.
Q. And what was his last name?
Richeal Thatcher - Direct
A. Huff.
Q. All right. When had she married Ron Huff?
A. In March of '91.
Q. All right. I want to show you a photograph we've marked as
Exhibit 2203, Ms. Thatcher. If you would look down in front of
you, you should see it. Is this your sister and her family?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. SENGEL: Your Honor -- your Honor, we're going to
offer Exhibit 2203.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor. Sorry.
THE COURT: All right. It's received. May be shown.
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. All right. If you would, please, tell us who we see in
this photograph.
A. That's my sister Robbin, and her husband Ron, and those are
her two stepsons, Matt and Cory. But to her, they were like
her own kids.
Q. Now, did Ron and Robbin -- were they going to start a
family of their own?
A. Robbin was expecting.
Q. All right. In April of 1995, she was expecting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. How far along was she in April of 1995?
A. Seven months.
Q. All right. And did she and her husband, Ron, know whether
Richeal Thatcher - Direct
they were going to have a boy or a girl?
A. No.
Q. Had they wanted to know?
A. Not really. They really wanted a girl because they had
Matt and Corey, but a healthy one would have been fine.
Q. Okay. Now, when did you first hear about the bombing at
the Murrah Building?
A. Immediately after it happened. I had been downtown for a
prayer breakfast at the Myriad a couple blocks from the
building and had just made it back to my office. And my
husband called to make sure I had got out of downtown.
Q. What did you do after you heard about it?
A. We -- I just stayed at work.
Q. Did you get in touch with any other members of your family?
A. I called Mom. We had a real short conversation. My father
had been downtown when it happened, and she was waiting for him
to call her. So we didn't tie up the phone lines.
Q. All right. Did your father also work downtown?
A. About a block from the Murrah Building.
Q. And I take it he was also aware of the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he go down to where the Murrah Building was?
A. He knew right away when it happened. He had been in
Vietnam a couple tours, and he knew when it -- when he heard
it, it was a bomb. I mean, immediately went out and started
Richeal Thatcher - Direct
looking for Robbin.
Q. All right. Did he then call back to your mother?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And when did you learn that Robbin would have
been in the bombing?
A. We knew that was her building.
Q. Okay. Now, after you heard about the bombing, did you get
any reports of pregnant women that might be at area hospitals?
A. After I got home that afternoon, they said there was one
that was seven months pregnant and she was a Jane Doe at the
time and she had been taken to an area hospital, so I knew it
was Robbin. I figured she's the only one that was seven months
pregnant, so -- but it wasn't her.
Q. After that, did you have to wait a while to learn whether
they recovered Robbin's body?
A. We got a call five days later, on Monday, the 24th, that
they had Robbin.
Q. Did you learn after her death what the sex of the child was
going to be?
A. Yes. We did.
Q. What was that?
A. A girl.
Q. And had Robbin and Ron picked out a name if they were going
to have a girl?
A. Yes. They had already decided on that. Amber Denise.
Richeal Thatcher - Direct
Q. Does your family still have dinners on Sundays?
A. Every Sunday.
Q. Okay. If you would, please, I'd like for you to tell us
what has been the impact of the loss of Robbin on your mom and
dad.
A. My dad, when his building was demolished, they rebuilt like
just half a block down the street; so every day, he goes
downtown and every day, he sees the tourists and stuff go to
the fence. And it's just been horrendous on him, and his
health has not been very well lately; and it's -- it's a
terrific void in our family. Robbin was a -- a link between
all of us, being the oldest.
Q. If you would, please tell us how it's impacted on your
mother.
A. She's more quiet. She lost her firstborn. She tries to be
the same, but you can tell there's something missing. Excuse
me.
Q. And what effect has it had on you and your sisters to lose
your sister Robbin?
A. I lost my best friend. We did a lot of things together.
We bowled for like over 12 years together in the same league,
and she learned to decorate cakes, and we were always doing
crafts and stuff together. And Christmastime, she'd coordinate
all the gifts and the money situation and everything, and we
just -- we were just always close. She was always chattering
Richeal Thatcher - Direct
and, you know, I miss her, you know -- her chatter.
Q. Do Ron and his sons still come to the family dinners on
Sunday?
A. Every Sunday.
Q. Do you still keep a place for Robbin at the family table?
A. We do. We know she's still there.
MR. SENGEL: Thank you.
I have nothing further, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next.
MR. MACKEY: With the Court's permission, we would
like to play Government Exhibit 1425. It's a video of a
youngster, P. J. Allen, who was injured in the bombing.
THE COURT: All right. You may do so.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit 1425 played.)
MR. MACKEY: Next, we'll call Megan Allen.
THE COURT: All right. Megan Allen.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Megan Allen affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Megan Nicole Allen, A-L-L-E-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, Judge.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good afternoon.
A. Hi.
Q. Tell the jury, Ms. Allen, where you live.
A. I live in Norman, Oklahoma.
Q. And have you lived in Norman, Oklahoma, all your life?
A. Born and raised.
Q. Are you attending school?
A. Yes. I'm a freshman at the University of Oklahoma.
Q. Tell the jury the names of your mom and dad.
A. Ted Allen and Laurie Burton.
Q. And did your mom and dad have more than you as children?
A. Yes. There's four of us, and I'm the youngest. There's
Jill. She's 25 now. And Gretchen who's 23. And Spencer is
20. And then me.
Q. Did your mom and dad divorce at some point?
A. Yes. When I was about 8 or 7. They separated.
Q. And after that time, did they each remarry?
A. Yes. Both of them.
Q. After the remarriages, did you spend most of your time
or -- that is, all of your time divided between the two
Megan Allen - Direct
households?
A. Yes. Equal. Both households. I went to both.
Q. So did you have a long opportunity to spend time with your
father even after the time of their divorce?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Were the two households close in proximity to each other?
A. Yes. They were both in Norman, about 5 miles away from
each other.
Q. When your father remarried, what was the name of his new
wife?
A. Kay Goodlow.
Q. And does she have a daughter from a previous marriage?
A. Yes. She has Rachel, who's two years younger than me.
Q. And did you and Rachel over time become very good friends?
A. Yes. Very much so.
Q. Did Ted and Kay then later have a child of their own?
A. Uh-huh. Austin, who's now seven.
Q. So between the two families, there were a total of six
children?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Megan, I want to show you a photograph marked 2211.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move for its admission.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Megan Allen - Direct
Q. Now the jury can see the photograph, Megan. Could you
start on the left-hand side with the woman in the red sweater
and just introduce by name those persons that appear there.
A. Okay. The one on the left, that's my sister Jill, my
oldest, who's 25. That's -- next to her is Spencer. He's my
older brother, who's 20. And that's me right below him --
we're all holding hands, being goofy -- and sitting on my dad's
lap. That's my dad in the middle. And my stepsister is on his
other knee. She is Rachel. And then Austin is down there. He
was about 4 at the time of that picture. And there's Kay,
which is my stepmom, above Rachel. And Gretchen, my second
oldest sister.
Q. Tell us, Megan, a little bit what it was like growing up
with a family with Ted Allen as your father.
A. It was great. We had -- when I remember him, I just think
of happy times. We were all -- I guess I'd -- now that I think
back on it, we were an ideal family. It was just -- I mean, it
was great. I was raised perfectly. And I -- he did nothing
wrong. And -- I -- we just had the best family, and we still
do. We're strong and we love each other and -- so much. We're
really close.
Q. At the time of your father's death on April 19th, where was
he working?
A. He was working at HUD in the Murrah Building.
Q. And how many years, if you know, had your father been
Megan Allen - Direct
working for the federal government and for HUD?
A. I'm not sure. I know a long time.
Q. A long time.
A. Yeah.
Q. Had you had a chance to visit the Murrah Building? Did you
know where he was?
A. Yeah. I had been to his office a couple of times.
Q. On the day of the bombing, were you at school?
A. Yeah.
Q. And how did you learn of the news of the bombing?
A. My teacher had gotten a phone call. She left the room; and
when she came back, she was real -- had this real stern look on
her face and very serious, and we all just kind of sat there.
And she said, "There's been an accident downtown." And she was
like this could affect me, or this could affect you; and I
thought she was just picking random people out. So I didn't
think anything of it. I knew my stepmom and my dad both worked
downtown; but the way she made it sound, it didn't sound that
big. They were telling me there was no deaths or anything.
And so then, they calmed me down because I was crying.
And I didn't know which building was -- either of my parents
worked in. And so the -- my next hour, they took me back to
class. And the teacher got a memo, and it said the building --
the offices that were in the building that was blown up. And
right when they said HUD, I knew that it was my dad.
Megan Allen - Direct
Q. And later in the course of the day, did you go home and
join with other family members and begin to await news?
A. Yeah. They were all there.
Q. How long did you wait before you and the other family
members were officially notified that your father had been
killed in the blast?
A. Seven days.
Q. And during that entire seven days, did all of you as a
family stay together and wait for that news?
A. Uh-huh. We were very close at that time.
Q. Megan, you had mentioned that when your father married Kay
Allen, that Rachel became a stepsister to you?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And a stepdaughter to him?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Describe his relationship, how he treated Rachel.
A. Just like me. I mean, we -- like all of us. He thought
she was so special. All of us. And we knew it was a regular
father-daughter relationship.
Q. How old was Austin at the time of your father's death?
A. He was 4.
Q. And how old were you?
A. 16.
Q. And that was in April of 1995?
A. Uh-huh.
Megan Allen - Direct
Q. In October of that very same year, did any other event
happen to you?
A. Yes. My mom had remarried, and her -- she had remarried
before the bombing, but her husband, my stepdad, died, also.
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'll overrule it.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Go ahead. In 1995, in the summer of 1995, did you -- were
you injured in a car accident?
A. Yeah. I was a passenger in a car. She had gotten in a
wreck, and I got a blood clot on my brain. I had to have brain
surgery.
Q. And going through that experience in the summer of '95, did
you particularly miss your father?
A. Very much so. Yeah. That was probably the hardest time.
Q. Megan, I want you to ask -- answer just a couple other
questions. And having seen Austin over the past two-and-a-half
years and observed his behavior, tell the jury how he has dealt
with the loss of his father.
A. Being 4 at the time of losing his dad, he's -- I mean, he
no longer has a father to look up to. Austin and my dad -- my
dad worshiped Austin. Austin -- they enjoyed each other. My
dad was seriously my brother's hero. And now, he talks about
it, just little things like how tall he wants to be like his
dad and how much he misses him, and he writes -- when all the
Megan Allen - Direct
other kids write notes to their dad, he wrote a note that said,
"I'm sorry. I love you. I wish this didn't happen."
And I just -- and I just watch him every day. And I
feel kind of guilty because I got more time to spend with him
than Austin did. And I just wish Austin could have more, and
Austin wishes he could have more time.
Q. Megan, can you tell the jury from your own standpoint what
it's been like to have lost your dad.
A. Awful. Every single day, I've thought about it. Every
single day -- and there's no escaping it because it comes up in
everyday situations. And starting college is really hard. And
it's nothing I can escape, but I've learned to accept it. But
there's always -- I'm never going to be the same person, ever.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, Megan.
MR. TIGAR: No questions.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness, please.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we'll call Rene McNeely.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Rene McNeely affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Rene McNeely, M-C-N-E-E-L-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. McNeely.
A. Hi.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. I'm a deputy court clerk for Oklahoma County.
Q. And where do you live?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. Where do you live?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. Can you describe your education briefly for us.
A. I finished high school. I've done three years at OU.
Q. OU, University of Oklahoma?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is that in Norman, Oklahoma?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you first enroll in OU?
A. '88. 1988.
Q. And while you were a first-year student at OU, did you meet
a man named Antonio Cooper?
A. Yes.
Q. About seven years later, did you and Mr. Cooper have a
Rene McNeely - Direct
child together?
A. Yes.
Q. And did that baby die in the bombing on April 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to show you Government Exhibit 1047E.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, this is from the big board.
1047 is already into evidence. I don't believe this is.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. I have no objection.
THE COURT: It may be displayed, yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Is this your son?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was his name?
A. Antonio Cooper, Jr.
Q. How old was he when this picture was taken?
A. He had just turned six months old.
Q. And what was his birth date?
A. October 1, '94.
Q. And your son was Antonio Cooper, Jr.?
A. Yes.
Q. His father is Antonio Cooper, Sr.?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you refer to them to distinguish them?
A. Big Tony and Little Tone.
Q. Big Tony, Little Tone?
Rene McNeely - Direct
A. Uh-huh.
Q. I want to talk a little bit about what was going on in your
life in April, 1995. Little Tone was born in October 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you working at the time that you had your son?
A. Yes.
Q. What were you doing at that time?
A. I was a deputy court clerk.
Q. Same position you have now?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you take time off when you had your baby?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did you go back to work?
A. I went back to work December 2d or 3d, '94.
Q. So --
A. December of '94.
Q. When your son was a little bit less than two months old?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do with your baby when you went to work?
A. I put him in the day-care.
Q. Where was that day-care located?
A. In the federal building.
Q. Murrah Federal Building?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. How far was that from where you worked at the county
Rene McNeely - Direct
courthouse?
A. Just two blocks.
Q. And did that closeness allow you to have contact with your
child during the day?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about that, please.
A. We put him in there because it was safe. It was clean.
The people that worked there, they worked really well with him.
And he was close to me, you know.
Q. What did you do during lunch?
A. I had lunch at the day-care with him, because I fed him his
lunch every day.
Q. Did you also see him on other breaks during the day?
A. Yeah.
Q. What was Big Tony doing during the spring of 1995?
A. He was working.
Q. What was he doing for work?
A. He worked for Roadway and Yellow Freight. He had two jobs.
Q. And what did he do for those companies?
A. He -- I think they called it "dock work." He unloaded and
loaded trucks for Roadway and Yellow Freight.
Q. What kind of contact was he able to have with your son
because of his jobs?
A. On the nights when he didn't work, he was at home with us.
Some nights, he might work 11 to 7 or about 8. And if he
Rene McNeely - Direct
wasn't home in the morning before we left going downtown, after
he got off work, he'd always stop downtown and see the baby
before he went home.
Q. Stop at the day-care center in the morning?
A. Yeah.
Q. In early April, 1995, did the -- was there new staff hired
at the day-care center?
A. Yes.
Q. And because of that, did you keep Little Tone out of
day-care for a couple days?
A. For the first three days -- that Friday, they told us there
was a change in the staff. And that Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, I took off work because I just didn't want to take
him in because we didn't know these people. And so those first
three days, me and Tony, we took off, stayed at home with the
baby, went up, met the new people at the day-care, went in and
sat in on the board of directors' meeting for the day-care to
meet all the new people to make sure who we were leaving our
child with.
Q. And did you satisfy yourselves that you were leaving your
child in a safe environment?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you put Little Tone back in day-care at that time?
A. Yeah.
Q. I want to talk about the 19th now. What were your plans
Rene McNeely - Direct
for April 19, 1995?
A. Originally, I was not going to go to work that day. But I
decided to go in.
I wanted to stay off, and I had plans to go buy the
baby new shoes and get a new car seat Tone and I had picked
out, because he was growing out of his -- his first one.
Q. In the end, did you decide to go to work?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Big Tony working that night, the night of the 18th and
19th?
A. He did, but he made it home that morning before we left.
Q. Would you tell us briefly about that morning.
A. That morning, he got home -- he got home early, because we
were still in bed. And I told him I felt like I didn't want to
go to work that day.
And he told me go ahead and stay home and do what you
need to do.
And I said, well, no, I better get up and go ahead and
go to work. And so I got up and Tone -- I knew Tone was going
to sleep that morning. And so I got up, and I got the baby
dressed. And I took him in and put him on the bed with his
daddy, and they played while I got dressed and got ready for
work.
Q. And when you were ready for work and your child was
dressed, what did you do?
Rene McNeely - Direct
A. Tone got up and he helped pack our things out to the car.
And he packed the baby out to the car and, you know, put him in
his car seat and played with him while I was getting ready and
getting everything in and kissed the baby goodbye. And we told
him we'd see him later.
Q. And was that the last time that Big Tony saw his son?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I made it downtown like always. And I was -- I was like 10
minutes late, because there was a big clock in the day-care
door as you go out. And I noticed it was 8:10 as I left out,
because I was late leaving home. And I dropped the baby off,
and I put his things up like I always did. Put his food up and
everything. And -- and I put him down. They had little
play -- play mats, and I put him on the floor and put a toy in
front of him. And I told him, "Baby, I'll see you at
lunchtime"; and I went to work.
Q. Was that the last time you saw your baby?
A. Yeah.
Q. Your -- the county courthouse is only several blocks from
the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you at 9:00 on the morning of the 19th?
A. I clerk for a judge at the county, and he had just -- we
had just went into court and he had just taken the bench.
Rene McNeely - Direct
Q. And do you remember what you experienced when the bomb went
off?
A. The ceiling tiles came in. The windows shattered. And it
rocked our building so hard, I thought it was in our building.
Q. Did they subsequently evacuate your building?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you got outside, did you learn that the bomb had
not, in fact, gone off at your building?
A. Yes.
Q. You learned that it had gone off at the Murrah Federal
Building?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you spend the rest of your day trying to find your
baby?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you go to a number of different hospitals?
A. Yes.
Q. Some of them more than once?
A. Yes.
Q. At some point in the morning of the 19th, did you get in
touch with Big Tony?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you tell him?
A. I -- during that time, I had kept trying to call the house
to get him to let him know something had happened. And I never
Rene McNeely - Direct
did get him. And I finally got in touch with my mom, and I
told my mother, "Go out to the house and get Tony. He's
asleep. Just bang on the door until you get him." And she
brought him to the hospital where I was at the time.
Q. And do you remember when Big Tony joined you at that
hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. I was at Presbyterian, because someone had called and said
that they had a baby matching my baby's description there. So
I went there. And my mom brought Tony there. And I was in
this big waiting room -- it was like an auditorium and with a
lot of other people. And I remember looking up; and I saw Tony
coming down the aisle and -- and I just remember the look on
his face. And he asked me, "Have you found the baby?"
And I said, "No, not yet. Not yet."
Q. Did you and he spend the rest of the day on the 19th
looking for your child?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did you go home that night?
A. We went home about 11:30, because the church we were at --
they had set up like a meeting point. And about 10, 10:30,
they said they weren't releasing any more names for the night
and just to come back in the morning. And so we went home.
Q. What do you remember about arriving home that night?
Rene McNeely - Direct
A. It was the first night I ever went home without my son. He
had never been away from me. Never. No one had ever kept him
or anything. And I had to go home without my baby. And that
was hard.
Q. When was your child -- when was your child's body
identified?
A. May 16.
Q. So about a month later?
A. Yes.
Q. And in the interim, did investigators come to your house in
order to get things that they could use to try to identify him?
A. Yes.
Q. What things?
A. They came and -- they came and they took fingerprints from
his toys and bottles that he had had like that last morning and
off different things in the house. And they took samples of
his hair, like from his car seat and from his -- his little
brush and out of his crib and his first fingernail clippings
that I had clipped when he was about two months old and I had
saved them, and they took those.
Q. I want to talk a little bit about what kind of baby Little
Tone was. In the six-and-a-half months that he lived, did he
develop a very distinct, unique personality?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he like?
Rene McNeely - Direct
A. Tone was a -- he was a happy baby. That's all I can say.
He was happy. That's all he knew, was happiness; and I always
described him as if you were having a very bad day and he just
smiled at you, it would just lighten up your whole day, just
make you feel good. You know -- and he loved to play and -- I
don't know. I don't know.
Q. At the time of his death, was he crawling yet?
A. He was just starting to crawl. He was just starting to
crawl. And he didn't like to sit down. He didn't like to sit
down. He always loved to stand up. He had real strong, hard
calf muscles, because he was always on his tippytoes. He liked
to stand.
Q. Can you offer us a glimpse of how Little Tone's death
affected you personally.
A. Well, it changed my whole life. I felt as if the one I --
I lost my son and -- I felt as if I just -- I lost all sense of
direction. I didn't -- I felt as if I didn't have a purpose in
life anymore. Why? You know. Because I feel like once you've
been a parent, you can't go back from that.
Q. How long was it before you were able to go back to work?
A. I just went back this year.
Q. And when you went back to work, what were your lunch
periods like?
A. Well, before the bombing, I used to go to day-care every
day; and this year, when I went back to work, the first few
Rene McNeely - Direct
weeks, I would just go to my car and sit and cry, because I was
just so used to the routine I had before and now I was -- it
was different. I didn't have him to go see anymore.
Q. What kind of relationship did Big Tony have with your
child?
A. They had a real close bond. They really did. I -- you
just had to see them together to know. But they had a real
close bond.
Q. And on behalf of Big Tony, can you tell us a little bit
about what impact the death of your son had on him?
A. He has -- Tone took the death of our child really hard.
It -- he didn't -- he got to where he never wanted to even talk
about the baby. He -- he didn't even want to stay in the same
house because of the baby's presence in the house and his
things in the house. He just -- he just took it real bad. He
felt like -- I remember him saying he felt like he lost his
only friend in the whole world.
Q. Did Big Tony ever express to you whether he thought that he
personally had failed?
A. Yes. He -- he said he felt as though he had failed as a
father because he didn't -- he didn't save our child. But how
could he?
Q. And did he express that he failed in any other role?
A. He thought he failed me because he couldn't help take the
pain away. And I would tell him, "Tony, you can't. We just
Rene McNeely - Direct
lost our son." You know -- but he felt as though he failed as
a father and failed to -- me because he -- he couldn't help us.
Q. Did your son's death have any impact on your and Big Tony's
plans to get married?
A. Yes. We were going to be married the first week of May;
but during that time, you know, we still hadn't even found our
baby yet. They hadn't found him in the building yet. And so
plans were just kind of put on hold and, you know -- and then
just -- the tension was just so unbearable that Tony
eventually, you know -- he moved out because he couldn't stand
being in the house. And I couldn't move, because I wanted to
be there because I felt close to Little Tone there. But he
couldn't stand to be there. And so he moved.
Q. How long were you and Big Tony together?
A. Eight years.
Q. And what was the cause of the breakup of your relationship?
A. The death of our son.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, Ms. McNeely. That's all I
have.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Ron Burks.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Ron Burks affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Sergeant Ronnie Eugene Burks,
B-U-R-K-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Burks.
A. Good afternoon, ma'am.
Q. Tell the jury where you live.
A. I live in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. I am a police officer for the City of Oklahoma City.
Q. How long have you been a police officer for Oklahoma City?
A. Approximately 10 years.
Q. Do you have any prior law enforcement experience?
A. Yes, ma'am. I do.
Q. What is that?
A. I was a military policeman for eight-and-a-half years, and
I was a police officer for the Midwest City Police Department,
Oklahoma.
Q. Are you married to another member of the police force?
Ron Burks - Direct
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Who is that?
A. That is my wife, Terry. She is a dispatcher.
Q. And do you have any children?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How many children do you have?
A. I have two children. I have a daughter, 19 years old; and
I have a daughter, 5 years old.
Q. What's your 5-year-old daughter's name?
A. Sabrina.
Q. Is that a daughter that you had with your wife, Terry?
A. Yes.
Q. And how old was she at the time of the bombing?
A. She was 3 years old.
Q. Do you recall April 19 and where you were the morning of
April 19th?
A. Yes, I do, ma'am.
Q. Where were you early that morning?
A. I was at home with my wife and child.
Q. Can you tell the jury a little bit about your areas of
responsibility back at that time for the police force.
A. Yes, ma'am. I was currently a canine officer for the
police department.
Q. What is a canine officer?
A. I worked patrol dog, police dog.
Ron Burks - Direct
Q. What is the name of your dog?
A. My dog's name was Arlo, A-R-L-O.
Q. Is he still active on the police force?
A. No, ma'am. We retired him out in January of '97.
Q. Were you working with Arlo in April of 1995?
A. Yes, ma'am, I was.
Q. How did you come to find out about the bombing of the
Murrah Building on April 19th?
A. My -- we received a telephone call that morning. They
called and wanted my wife to come to work in dispatch.
Q. Did she do that?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. I stayed there at home with my child. And then my
mother-in-law came over to our home; and then I got a call from
dispatch, also, to respond.
Q. And were you asked to bring Arlo?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Now, when you first got downtown that morning, what was
your first responsibility or your first assignment?
A. I went directly to the command post, and I met with
Sergeant Don Browning, who was our coordinator for canine. We
were told to go over to the St. Anthony's Hospital; that they
received a bomb threat over there and to search that building
for any kind of devices over there.
Ron Burks - Direct
Q. Now, did Arlo have any training in detecting bombs?
A. No, he had not.
Q. So why did you go over there?
A. Apparently, that's what I was instructed to do. And they
were shorthanded on people that did have that expertise; so the
canine officers -- myself and two others -- went over there and
assisted to look for any kind of devices.
Q. You didn't find anything, did you?
A. No, ma'am, we did not.
Q. Now, did you enter the Murrah Building at some time on
April 19th?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did. After we completed our search of the
St. Anthony's Hospital, we went back to the Murrah Building
and -- to the southwest corner down there.
Q. Were you able to bring Arlo along with you at that time?
A. Yes, ma'am, I was.
Q. Were you allowed to bring Arlo into the Murrah Building?
A. No, I wasn't. We went up on the south plaza of the
building and we were told to wait there. We did not take our
dogs in. There was too many people in it at that time.
Q. And would that have made it difficult for you and Arlo to
find bodies?
A. It could have. Apparently, they felt that way so I didn't
take him in.
Q. All right. Did you nevertheless enter the building to
Ron Burks - Direct
assist?
A. Yes. I did. I took my dog back to the car and put him in
there. Then I went back myself. I went back up to the
building with Sergeant Browning and Sergeant Jan Latta, who's
another canine officer. We entered the building down in the
basement area on the southwest side.
Q. And do you recall seeing anyone who was trapped in that
basement area?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Who did you see?
A. I seen a lady trapped underneath there. Her leg was pinned
underneath a big, high concrete beam. I believe her name was
Daina Bradley.
Q. Now, were there other people down there when you found
Ms. Bradley?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. And did you speak with them about the stability of the
building?
A. Yes, I did. There was a man there that said he was a city
engineer with the City of Oklahoma City. He said that the beam
was unstable; that we was going to have to shore it up so it
wouldn't collapse.
Q. Did you assist in doing that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, did there come a point when there was a first bomb
Ron Burks - Direct
scare in the building?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. What did you do?
A. I remained there.
Q. And did anyone else stay with you?
A. Yes. There was a few people still down there, also.
Q. Were you given any instructions about that concrete pillar?
A. I was told to make sure I -- by this engineer, I was told
to make sure I felt the beam; if it had any type of vibrations,
to warn everybody to get out because the whole structure was
coming down.
Q. Would there have been anything you could do if you noticed
that it was moving?
A. Just other than just yelling out, warning people to get out
is all I could do.
Q. Could you tell the jury a little bit about what you saw
down in that basement area that morning.
A. Yes, ma'am. The -- the area was very dark. I seen
Ms. Bradley pinned underneath this giant piece of concrete with
her leg. There was a lot of debris. There was people moving
around up above us, so the place was unsound. I mean, there
was a lot of dust and pieces of concrete falling down around us
at the time.
Q. Did you see anything on the pillars?
A. Yes, I did.
Ron Burks - Direct
Q. What did you see?
A. I seen a lot of blood and brain matter coming down the
walls, because there was people trapped right above us.
Q. Now, at a certain point, did Dr. Sullivan come down into
the basement area?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did other people enter that area?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a second bomb scare?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And what did you do at that time?
A. The second bomb scare, I was told to leave, to get out;
that it was definitely something there. And so I went ahead
and left with everyone else that I knew that left.
Q. How did you feel about leaving, Mr. Burks?
A. Very guilty. I had a real sense of guilt about leaving.
Q. Why is that?
A. Because I have an oath. I swore an oath to protect and
serve; and I felt I let Ms. Bradley down by going out and the
other people that were trapped.
Q. Did you later learn that Ms. Bradley was successfully
removed from the building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, when you left the building after the second bomb
scare, did you continue to assist with the recovery effort?
Ron Burks - Direct
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went up -- up on the east side of the building to the
garage, came up; and they said that they needed some help
moving some recovery victims over to the church across the
street. And so I went over there to assist them in doing that.
Q. Did they ask you because you were a big guy and you could
carry some of those people?
A. I have no idea, ma'am. They just asked me if I could help,
and I did.
Q. And did you learn that they were asking you to transport
children?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. I picked up this little boy that was already deceased and
carried him over to the church and laid him on the floor.
Q. And what did you notice about his injuries?
A. His face was completely gone. His chest cavity was
completely open. He was dead.
Q. How did that affect you?
A. Very dramatically.
Q. Why is that?
A. Because I pictured my own little girl being that way and
I -- I felt for the parents of that little child, what he had
to go through when that happened.
Ron Burks - Direct
Q. Did you experience some difficulty after that because of
what you had seen?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. So what did you do?
A. I tried to seek some counseling from the police department
to help me out.
MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, did you continue to participate in the rescue mission
in the days and weeks that followed the bombing?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Could we turn for a moment to May 3 and 4.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Were you and your dog, Arlo, asked to assist in recovering
the deceased from the Alfred P. Murrah Building during that
time period?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Did you work with Officer Browning?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do on May 3?
A. On May 3, Sergeant Browning and I, along with our dogs,
were asked by the Medical Examiner's office to assist in
recovering the remaining victims in the building.
Q. Now, before this time, had you done some training with
Ron Burks - Direct
Arlo?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Did you ever notice before any difference in when Arlo
would notice a deceased, whether the person was an adult or a
child?
A. On this particular incident, yes. That did occur.
Whenever Arlo would indicate for a victim, he had a very
distinct indication that I found out later was a child. He
knew the -- in my opinion, he knew the difference.
Q. What did he do when it was a child?
A. Whenever we came up to a child, he would start digging real
tremendously to the point that it actually cut his pads. He
wouldn't give up. He just kept digging and digging and
digging. If it was an adult, he would kind of slow back. He
would indicate, but not as dramatic. It got to be so bad that
I had to take Superglue and glue his pads back sometimes
because he would dig so hard.
Q. Once -- did Officer Browning have his trained dog with him?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And that was -- what was the name of his dog?
A. Gunny.
Q. When Gunny and Arlo would find a body, did you mark the
area in some way for the rescuers?
A. Yes, we would. We would mark it with orange paint.
Q. Okay. Did you continue that the following day, on May 4th?
Ron Burks - Direct
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And do you know why you were brought in at that time?
A. We still had some victims to find that -- that hadn't been
recovered yet; and we were asked to assist them, to get as many
folks out as we could.
Q. Were other people cleared from the building so that the
dogs could focus on --
A. On the 3d of May, they were. On the 4th of May, they
weren't. We were in such a hurry to get everyone out that we
could possibly do it, that we worked around the other -- the
firefighters and the recovery people to assist us.
Q. Was it your understanding that May 4 was the final day of
the investigation, of the recovery effort?
A. That's what I was told, yes.
Q. All right. Did you come upon an area surrounding a pillar
that I think you've referred to as "Pillar 14"?
A. As Pillar 20.
Q. Pillar 20?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was significant about Pillar 20?
A. Both of our dogs -- Arlo had indicated on this pillar that
there was possibly some -- some victims there. I indicated
this to Deputy Chief Mike Shannon, that we still could have
some victims in this area.
Q. Could the rescuers at that point recover the bodies from
Ron Burks - Direct
the area surrounding Pillar 14 -- Pillar 20? Excuse me.
A. No. They couldn't, because the building was too unsound at
that point. We couldn't have got to them without bringing the
whole building down, possibly.
Q. Was it your understanding that soon thereafter, the
building was imploded?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you brought back with Arlo and Officer Browning for
yet another effort to retrieve deceased from the area?
A. Yes, we were, on May 29th.
Q. What did you do on that day?
A. On the 29th of May, Sergeant Browning and I returned to the
scene, took our dogs in, and helped indicate where the other
victims were that we hadn't recovered yet.
Q. Did you find the remaining people?
A. We found a total of three.
Q. For a moment, could you tell the jury a little bit about
the impact of participating in this rescue mission, what it's
been on you.
A. It -- at first, it made me angry, because I did have to
leave Ms. Bradley and I -- that -- like I said, I was sworn to
serve and protect; and I felt I let her down by leaving.
It saddened me because of the death that was involved.
I couldn't sleep at night. Had trouble with that. I've had
moments where I just bust out crying for no apparent reason.
Ron Burks - Direct
Q. Have you had any specific nightmares about what you saw?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. What are those?
A. There was a certain victim that had a look on his face that
I can't get out of my mind; that the -- the impact of the blast
was on his face. And I've had nightmares of that.
Q. Did you have several incidents during the recovery process
that have stayed with you?
A. Yes, I have. One particular incident, I was working the
perimeter. I was so proud of our citizens in Oklahoma City.
We had a -- I had a man drive up in an old, beat-up car. He
had a couple little -- four kids in the back seat. The man
offered me his work boots and said, "Here, you can use these
better than I can." And this guy didn't have anything. And so
he gave me his shoes off his feet.
Another incident was I was working one night, and they
had recovered a Marine in the building. And then when they
took off the slab -- they had found him -- I seen the stripe on
his uniform pants. And we took him out. And it was very
traumatic for me.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Burks.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. MACKEY: Kathy Treanor.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Kathleen Treanor affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Kathleen Treanor, T-R-E-A-N-O-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mearns.
MR. MEARNS: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Treanor.
A. Hello.
Q. Where do you live?
A. I live in a little town just outside of Oklahoma City about
30 minutes away. It's called Guthrie.
Q. How long have you lived in the area of Oklahoma City?
A. Since I was born. I went to school there. Met my husband
that I'm married to now there. Went to school with his
brothers and sisters there.
Q. What's your husband's name?
A. Michael Treanor.
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
Q. When did you and Michael Treanor get married?
A. We got married June 16, 1994. We were high school
sweethearts originally; but life had separated us, and we
married other people and had children by other people. And I
had a little girl and little boy by a previous marriage, and he
had a little boy by a previous marriage.
Q. What was your son's name?
A. Zachary Eckles.
Q. What are your two children's names?
A. Zachary Eckles and Ashley Eckles. David Treanor was his
son.
Q. And was your daughter, Ashley, and Michael's two parents
killed in the explosion in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir, they were. They went down to Social Security
that morning to file for Luther to retire. He was getting
ready to retire.
Q. And Luther Treanor is your husband's father?
A. That's correct.
Q. And what is -- what was Luther's wife's name?
A. LaRue. LaRue Treanor.
Q. And how was it that your daughter, Ashley, was with Luther
and LaRue Treanor on the morning of April 19th?
A. LaRue watched all of our children for us. All of the --
all of her children's children. She had eight grandchildren,
and they all stayed at her house. And as it turned out, Ashley
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
was the only one that she had with her that day. And she just
went along with Luther. I mean, it was just going to be a
quick little trip. They were just going to be there for a
short time, sign some papers. And then they were going to make
a day of it. Maybe do some shopping and have lunch, that kind
of thing.
Q. And those three members of your family were killed in the
Social Security office that morning?
A. That's correct.
Q. How old was Ashley at the time of her death?
A. She was four-and-a-half.
Q. How long had you known Luther and LaRue Treanor?
A. Almost as long as I'd lived in Guthrie. Mike's little
brother, Mark, and I started school together, first grade. We
grew up together. I mean, it's a small town. Everybody knows
everybody. And -- and it's just like one big, happy family.
We went to a little community church together. Mike and I
started dating in high school, as a sophomore in high school,
and we were baptized in this little church. Luther and LaRue
were kind of our mentors and guides and such as we were
teenagers. I -- I'd known them almost my whole life.
Q. Tell us, if you would, what Luther Treanor did for work.
A. He was a milk deliveryman for Townley's Dairy. He had
started the job as a temporary job 27 years ago and just never
left. He also farmed. He had 240 acres outside of Guthrie
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
that he had cattle and wheat. And he had done that all of his
life, since he was a little boy. He had grown up on a farm in
Oklahoma. He loved it. Wouldn't be anywhere else. He -- he
just loved the earth, and was really close to the earth and he
loved his farm. Loved his kids. And he loved his wife.
Q. I'd like you to take a look at Government Exhibit 1208D.
MR. MEARNS: At this time, we'd offer that photograph,
your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Who is that picture of, Ms. Treanor?
A. That is my father-in-law, Luther Treanor.
Q. Tell us what kind of a man Luther Treanor was.
A. Oh, he was a good Christian man. He was a pillar of his
community. He was a charter member of his church.
We tell a story about Dad. He goes to work. He would
go to work 2, 3:00 in the morning. And one day, he was going
to work, and he looked over and he saw a house on fire. And he
pulled off the road, and he tried to wake the people up by
beating on the door. And finally, he just broke the door down
and helped the people get out and saw that everything was okay
and under control and calmly got back in his truck and went
back to work.
For weeks and weeks afterwards, the TV and radio was
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
looking for this man who had saved this family's life. And he
told us he didn't need any recognition, he didn't need any
glory; he just did it because it was the right thing to do.
And he wouldn't have had it any other way. But that was just
the kind of man he was.
He loved his kids. Every one of us. Even if we were
married kids, to him, there was no difference. He loved us all
the same. There wasn't anything he would (sic) do for us. If
we needed money, he was our banker. If we needed moral
support, he was there for us. If we needed encouragement, he
was there for us. There wasn't anything he wouldn't do for us
at all.
Q. How many children did Luther and LaRue Treanor have?
A. They had four children. Three boys and a girl.
Q. And how many grandchildren did they have?
A. At the time, they had eight grandchildren.
Q. I'd like you to take a look now at Government Exhibit
1208C.
MR. MEARNS: And I'd offer that, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Who is that, Ms. Treanor?
A. That's LaRue Treanor.
Q. Tell us, if you would, what kind of a woman LaRue Treanor
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
was.
A. For me, LaRue filled a very special hole. She was my
mother. My mother had passed away, committed suicide a few
weeks before my son was born. And LaRue seemed to recognize
that I needed her. She was my friend. She was my confidant
for quite some time. She seemed to know that I needed a mother
figure in my life.
She was a beautiful woman. Very creative. Very
joyful. Loved to sing. Loved her grandkids. She had a shirt
that she had made. It was so sweet. It was a little teddy
bear Santa, and Santa was holding a scroll with the list of
names and he was checking it twice. And it was all of her
grandkids. And as she would have a grandchild, she would add a
name to that shirt. And it didn't matter that my children were
step-grandchildren. They were still her grandchildren and she
loved them just the same.
Q. I'd like you to take a look now at Government Exhibit 1489.
MR. MEARNS: And we would offer that exhibit, as well,
your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q. Tell us, Ms. Treanor: Who do we see in that photograph,
please.
A. It's my son, Zachary, and my daughter, Ashley.
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
Q. What kind of a girl was Ashley?
A. She was a beautiful child. She was the sunshine of my
life. She still is.
Q. What kind of a relationship did she have with her two
brothers?
A. She ruled our home. Anything that Ashley said, those boys,
they marched right to her tune. And nobody could pick on
Ashley but those two boys. They just would not allow it. They
loved their little sister. She was -- she could do no wrong as
far as they were concerned.
She had such a joyful spirit. I mean, she'd sing all
the time. She'd sing to her dolls. She'd sing this, she'd
sing that. It didn't matter if she knew the words. She'd make
them up as she'd go. She was just so full of life.
We had had some kittens not long before the bombing,
and she picked these little kittens up. And she'd come running
in the house; and she said, "Mommy, Mommy, the cat had
kittens." And she was holding this little kitten right up next
to her, and she was being so careful and so gentle with it.
And I said, "Honey, you've got to take the kitten
back, or you're going to upset the mommy cat."
And she said, "But I just want to love it." And she
was so careful with these kittens, and she just went and took
and laid it right back in the box with the momma cat. And she
just stayed there the whole time and just -- you know, that's
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
just who she was. She just loved life. She was so full of
joy. She was so special to all of us.
Q. What kind of a relationship did Ashley have with your
husband, Michael, her stepfather?
A. You know, we have a blended family; and that's -- that's
difficult at best. And every night, when we'd tuck Ashley into
bed and she'd run in and she'd say, "A kiss and a hug for
Mommy." And I'd go in and I'd tuck her in and I'd give her a
kiss and give her a hug. And we'd talk a little bit and say
our prayers.
And when she was done with me, she'd say, "A kiss and
a hug for Daddy." And Michael would come in and he'd do the
same.
And one night after he had done that, she told him,
"You know, I'm the luckiest little girl in the world because I
have two daddies that love me very much."
Michael came out of the room that night, big tears
rolling down his cheeks; and he said, "Thank you so much for
giving me a daughter."
Q. What has been the impact on your family with the loss of
Luther and LaRue Treanor?
A. I don't even know where to begin. After the bombing --
well, before the bombing, we all would gather at Mom and Dad's
house for holidays. That was the place we came. And it didn't
matter what differences the brothers and sisters might have
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
had; they all stopped at the door. And we came in, and we were
one big, happy family, and we would fellowship together. We
would love and we would have a really good time, and all the
cousins would get together and they would play. It didn't
matter.
Since the bombing, we haven't -- we haven't even been
able to stay in the same room with each other. It has torn our
family apart. We -- we can't see eye to eye on where Dad
wanted us to go with what he was doing. Dad had bought several
acres of land and thousands and thousands of dollars' worth of
cattle, and he mortgaged himself to the point where you could
see that this man was not prepared to die financially. He had
leveraged himself financially to the point where he knew that
he was going to be around and it was going to take him some
time to get out of that.
After the bombing, not knowing, he left us no
instruction, no will. We didn't know what we needed to do with
all these cattle and all this land. We lost the cattle. We
lost most of the land. And finally, after all was said and
done, all of us had to take out mortgages and -- to keep from
losing our homes. We all lived on this one acreage. All of us
except for Brad, who lived just in town. And that was
something that we had holding over us through this whole
two-and-a-half years. We -- we didn't know if the -- the banks
were going to come and take us out of our homes. We'd already
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
lost our family, and then we had to worry about this.
Q. What has been the impact, the effect, on you and your
family of the loss of your daughter, Ashley?
A. There was a great deal of -- of pain, as you can imagine.
It took me a long time to just find the will to live, to go on.
Ashley was the sunshine of my life. She was such a beautiful
child. The last day I saw her -- normally, Ashley would get up
in the mornings when we would get up, and she would greet us at
the -- at the door when we would be coming out of the bedroom.
But not this morning. This morning, she didn't want to get up.
She cried and screamed and I had to -- to sit on the bed and
dress her. Normally, I didn't have to do that. And she begged
me: "Mommy, please don't go to work today. Please stay home
with me and play with me today. I need you to stay home today,
Mommy." And I couldn't. I had just started a new job.
And so I took her to Mom's house that morning and --
and left her, and she was okay then. I mean, everything was
okay. And she threw her arms around me and she kissed me one
last time. And the next time I saw her was in a box. I buried
a little, white box. I never saw her again. And I had to live
with the guilt, the guilt of it being a mother that had to
work. And I wanted to die because my daughter was gone. She
was taken from me. She was taken from my family. I have no
daughter now. I have no future with my daughter.
The first day of school, I sit there in the parking
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
lot, remembering that we had been counting the days. We had
137 days until she started school. And I sit there in that
parking lot for most of the day, and I cried because we weren't
going to get that. It was gone. It was stolen from me.
MR. TIGAR: If the Court please --
MR. MEARNS: Thank you. I have no further questions.
MR. TIGAR: May we approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: All right. We'll -- I'm going to excuse
the witness. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 149B2 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
THE COURT: We're going to take the recess; and we
will clearly complete, I think, the testimony yet this
afternoon and perhaps earlier than five. But of course, you
know what I'm going to say about the witness you've just heard
and the outburst of anger that you just heard. Understandably,
the woman lost control.
And as I said to you in some detail this morning, when
these people come in and get asked about these things, that,
you know, are so sensitive for them and touch the basic
emotions here -- you know, this woman lost. And the volume
with which she expressed her anger is something that may have
been intended to suggest more to you than she was asked. And
you'll have to disregard it. Obviously, that was
inappropriate. But we're not here to deal with anger, we're
not here even for the people on the jury to deal with grief and
sorrow and revenge and vengeance. I don't have to go through
all of that again with you. I think you understand what I'm
saying. But this is an example of what is inappropriate for a
witness to do. And so you'll have to disregard that part of
her testimony, remembering also, of course, that you must be
careful throughout all recesses to keep open minds. Avoid
discussion about the witnesses that you've heard or anything
else in connection with this matter until next week when it's
given to you for a decision.
So you're excused now. 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 3:11 p.m.)
THE COURT: We'll be in recess. 20 minutes.
(Recess at 3:12 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:32 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
MR. TIGAR: May we approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 149B3 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
(Jury in at 3:33 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Next witness.
MR. MACKEY: Mr. Mike Shannon.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Mike Shannon affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Mike Shannon, S-H-A-N-N-O-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed, Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Where do you live?
A. Mustang, Oklahoma.
Q. And you're an Oklahoma City fireman?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what -- how do you -- how do others in the fire
department refer to you -- officially?
A. Chief of Special Operations.
Q. Chief Shannon, where were you born and raised?
A. Oklahoma City.
Mike Shannon - Direct
Q. And are you married?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have children?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was your father? What did he do for a living?
A. He was a firefighter.
Q. How about his father?
A. Firefighter.
Q. Where did you go to high school?
A. Ponca City West.
Q. After graduating from high school, what did you do?
A. I went to the Navy.
Q. How long did you serve in the Navy?
A. Four years.
Q. Was that during Vietnam?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you serve in Southeast Asia?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And after being discharged from the United States Navy, did
you join the fire department?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how long have you been with the fire department as of
today?
A. A little over 20 years, almost 21.
Q. Now, what is -- I think you ran it by us pretty quick a
Mike Shannon - Direct
moment ago, but what is -- what are your responsibilities with
the fire department?
A. I'm in charge of tactical rescue, tactical and technical
rescue, water rescue and hazardous materials.
Q. What are hazardous materials?
A. Products that are -- can create immediate danger to life
and health conditions, whether it be by commercial or
noncommercial products, chemicals.
Q. By virtue of your position and your training in the fire
department, what position did you have regarding the Oklahoma
City bombing?
A. I was in charge of rescue operations.
Q. What does that mean, the rescue operations?
A. As stated by the fire chief, I was in charge of technical
rescue and recovery inside the building.
Q. Did that include the men and women who died in the
building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is the station that you were assigned to in April of
'95 in relationship to the Murrah Building?
A. Station 1, five blocks west.
Q. Did you hear the explosion at 9:02?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how long did it take for you to arrive on the scene at
the Murrah Building?
Mike Shannon - Direct
A. About three minutes.
Q. Arrived at about 9:05?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let me show you a photograph that's been marked as Exhibit
944. Do you recognize that scene?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is --
MR. RYAN: I believe this is in evidence, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
MR. RYAN: I ask to display it to the jury.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Chief Shannon, are you in this photograph?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. There is a pen there on your desk. Would you take that pen
and circle where you are in this photograph.
And approximately what time of the morning is this?
A. This is 2, 3 minutes after the explosion.
Q. Where had you parked your vehicle?
A. At the corner of 5th and Hudson.
Q. About half a block from where you're displayed --
A. About a half a block from where I'm located right now.
Q. I take it at this point you're running towards the
building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was with you that morning?
Mike Shannon - Direct
A. Once I got into the building -- I was by myself for the
first 4 or 5 minutes; and Danny Atchley, the photographer from
the fire department, was accompanying me the biggest part of
that morning.
Q. Let me also show you Exhibit 1000. Do you recognize that
scene?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. RYAN: Offer Exhibit 1000.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Proceed, may be shown.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. About what time of the morning is this?
A. This is probably around 9:08 or 10.
Q. Tell us -- or tell the jury and the Court what we're seeing
in this photograph.
A. The fires across the street had been taken under control.
There were 50 cars on the north side of the street over in this
area. And I had made two entries into the building at this
time, and I got out one person -- one person here. And I'm
standing here.
Q. Why don't you take us back, then, to the time where you're
running towards the building, and tell us what you had done
between the earlier photograph, Exhibit 944, and what is
displayed here in Exhibit 1000.
A. I had entered the building approximately over in this area
Mike Shannon - Direct
here, climbed in through a window, had got halfway through the
first office area. Two ladies were laying down in the debris
with office debris over them. I helped them to their feet.
One had a slight leg injury. She very vividly explained to me
that there were 25 children in a day-care center on the 2d
floor and was explicit, to say the least, about telling me to
go to the 2d floor and see about the babies.
Q. When you say she was "explicit," what do you mean?
A. She was extremely explicit about telling me to get my
person to the 2d floor.
Q. She grabbed you by the collar?
A. Grabbed me by the collar and my bunker gear and my tie and
was real close, nose to nose, while I was helping her to her
feet; and she explained to me how many children and where they
were located and for me to get to the 2d floor.
Q. After you had this encounter with these two women and
learned about the day-care facility, what did you do?
A. I tried getting to the hallway that was just behind, just
to the south of them and where I met a person that was bringing
this person out, Tom Hall. And I took him from that rescuer, a
police officer, and carried him outside and laid Tom Hall down
the street and went back in. And this is when I was stopped
and I was asked some information about outside from here.
Q. What was the condition of Mr. Tom Hall, the man that's
laying there in the street?
Mike Shannon - Direct
A. I really didn't think that he would survive. His face had
been burned, had a lot of shrapnel damage to his face. His
carotid had been cut. There was a flap of skin across his face
from the neck and side of his face. His hair had been matted,
and he was wet, a lot of water and body fluids on him, real
slick. And he was in a ball because both legs were broke real
severely at the femurs. He was hard to carry by yourself. He
was real slippery. It was a job not to drop him, to get him
outside to the street. I didn't think he would survive.
He introduced himself to me a year later. I didn't
recognize him.
Q. After you talked to the ladies and brought Mr. Hall out,
you said you talked to someone else that gave you some
information. What did you do after that?
A. I went back in the building, went down the hallway. It was
pitch black in the hallway then from the debris blocking out
the sunlight and the smoke coming in; found the elevator shaft,
knew that the stairwell was close to the elevator shaft, and
proceeded up to the stairwell to the 2d floor where the
day-care center was at, entered the 2d floor and surveyed the
area there.
Q. What did you find?
A. There was a lot of debris in the area, large, large debris,
heavy concrete. A large piece of concrete fell out of a cross-
member and hit me in the head, hurt.
Mike Shannon - Direct
Q. Did you have a helmet on?
A. I had a helmet, and it knocked me to my knees. That
brought a concern of fall hazards. And I looked up at the
ceilings and saw that one of the main crossbeams had been
broken in half, and a lot of debris was falling at that time;
and I didn't go any further on the 2d floor and -- because of
the falling debris from the -- from there and went on to the 3d
floor.
Q. Just describe for us, if you will, what you did.
A. Going to the 3d floor, there were a lot of people in chaos
on the 3d floor, people jumping off of office debris. Office
furniture had been blown to the south side of that floor, and
people were crawling over the office furniture trying to help
people. And they were jumping onto the floor, which was
causing the floor to vibrate, and debris was then falling from
the floor down into the -- down -- that's what hit me, was that
vibration.
Going around the debris, I found two ladies that were
trapped. And there were some people trying to help them. I
was trying to show them how not -- how not to treat the ladies
that were down because they were being injured further by their
efforts. And I got that -- tried to get that under control of
helping them in a little better manner.
And that was the size up on the 3d floor that brought
me into surveying individuals up there.
Mike Shannon - Direct
Q. Did you at some point there in the early time in the
building come upon Danny Atchley?
A. Danny Atchley was on the 2d floor. I went back down to the
2d floor, and Danny Atchley had been removing -- had found
several children, small children. My own children were at a
day-care center, 3 and 5; and we were trying -- and they were
the same size; and Danny was -- I asked Danny how many he had
found, did he find -- we were expecting them all to be in
one -- one area. And they were scattered further than we
thought. Danny had removed four that morning and was in the
process -- you couldn't get very close to Danny. He was
throwing a lot of debris over his back and shoulder.
Q. What did you view your responsibility as that morning?
A. To reduce the amount of risk hazard, hazard and known
perceived danger, and to reduce the risk or exposure to that
known and perceived danger to the rescuers and workers that
were going to be in that area, not to let any more of them be
injured than -- than was -- than was possible.
Q. Did that cause some conflict inside of you?
A. There was a lot of conflict from things you want to do
morally or what you are traditionally taught to do and what
your job description had to be. You couldn't do the typical
job of a firefighter of stopping and rendering aid to an
individual; and every time I did, I would find myself behind
vs. going forward with supervising and recognizing hazards and
Mike Shannon - Direct
risks throughout the building.
Q. What did you do in that first hour in terms of -- give us
an overview, not person by person but an overview of what you
were attempting to accomplish in the first hour.
A. I took a note pad and started writing down the hazards and
the locations of those hazards and where seemed to be the most
accumulation of people, of people alive and the people --
rescuers trying to perform rescue, recognizing the hazards for
that particular location, collapse hazards and fall hazards,
and trying to assess where to keep people away from until we
could get some support in there, to better assess the hazards
and better to render those hazards ineffective.
Q. Were there people who were unable to get out of the
building?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 981. Do you
recognize that photograph?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that you the morning of April 19?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. RYAN: We offer Exhibit 981.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, may be shown.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Tell the jury what we're seeing in this photograph, if you
Mike Shannon - Direct
would.
A. This is on the 3d floor, just east. Right behind me, it
drops three floors into what was called "the pit," and before
me is rubble and three floors to the rubble pile, and the
crater was out front.
Nancy and Patty were to my left.
Q. Excuse me. Nancy and Patty who? Nancy Ingram and Patty
Hall?
A. Yes. They were behind me to my left. They were the two
ladies that were trapped on the 3d floor.
At my feet is Mr. Youngblood.
Q. What is he doing?
A. He was trapped by some heavy material. I was able to move
that off, but in doing that I trapped myself out on top of this
ledge. I couldn't get off. And at this point I was trying to
get the attention of a truck officer to get me an aerial
ladder. The chief that was working outside -- to get me an
aerial ladder so I could get off and I could get the patient
off.
He was severely injured -- extraordinarily, severely
injured from the buttocks to the knees.
Q. What happened with respect to the aerial ladder and
Mr. Youngblood?
A. They brought an aerial ladder up, and we got him
stabilized, immobilized, and put him into a Stokes stretcher, a
Mike Shannon - Direct
type of basket, and removed him from that ledge down to the
ground.
Q. Are you knowledgeable about the fact that he lived for 23
days in the hospital?
A. I wasn't until six, eight months ago.
Q. Let's talk about Nancy Ingram and Patty Hall. What were
you doing for them that morning?
A. The first people there, there were just people off the
street and they were trying to help. And they were doing
things like holding them by the shoulders and just pulling on
them, and that caused a lot of pain. And the ladies were
crying out; and I was trying to get the people with the best
intentions not to pull on the ladies anymore, to lay them down
and wait for the rest of the fire department to show up and
trying to show some people how to use some leverage and not to
set the collapsed pieces of steel and concrete back on top of
them when they'd pry it up. It was the best of intentions, but
sometimes it was frustrating the rescue efforts of those two
ladies.
Q. At some point that morning, was there a bomb scare?
A. At 10:30 that morning, there was a bomb scare.
Q. And was there ever a bomb?
A. No.
Q. What happened as a result of the bomb scare?
A. The building had to be evacuated. All the rescuers had
Mike Shannon - Direct
to -- had to leave, leaving some of the people entrapped.
Q. And did those include Ms. Ingram and Ms. Hall we've been
talking about?
A. They were delayed. I allowed -- went back and stayed with
the two teams that was working with those two ladies. Patty
come out a little bit earlier than Nancy and just as the bomb
scare was being halted -- was being brought in. And then
Nancy -- I allowed that team to stay in a few minutes longer
because they were very near of removing her. And so I allowed
them to stay a little bit longer to get her out.
Q. And they did that?
A. And they did that.
Q. Let me show you Exhibit No. 968. You can identify that,
can you not?
A. Sure.
Q. It's the Murrah Building?
A. It's the Murrah Building.
MR. RYAN: We would offer Exhibit 968, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Is it already in, your Honor?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Yes, it has been.
MR. TIGAR: We have no objection.
MR. RYAN: Thank you.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, with respect to this exhibit, we'd like to use this in
terms of you trying to explain to the jury who was left in the
Mike Shannon - Direct
building at 10:30 and where they were located. Can you do
that?
A. This area right in here, Nancy and Patty were at behind
that debris, and they were taken out right at 10:30. About
10:35, Nancy came out.
The area inside the pit and to the bottom behind --
this front area is called "the pile" or "the Christmas tree."
Behind this area was the three other -- three other --
three, four people that were left in that -- at the bomb scare
when we evacuated. They were left.
Q. Do you know where Terry Shaw was?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you -- can you circle where -- approximately where
Terry Shaw was trapped?
A. If you were ahead -- if you had X-ray vision, you could
look through this spot right here and you would see the area.
It's at -- between Columns -- this is Column 16. She's at the
end of 16, between 16 and 14 in a V -- in a V-shaped collapse
behind the Christmas tree.
Q. How about Daina Bradley? Where was she located?
A. Daina Bradley, if you had X-ray vision, would be at the end
of 22 -- at the end of 20, on the first floor, straight through
the building.
Q. How about Priscilla Salyers? Where was she located?
A. Priscilla and Daina were in line, directly in line with
Mike Shannon - Direct
each other. And Amy were all directly in line with each other.
Q. Amy Petty?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that Brandie Ligons was trapped at 10:30?
A. No.
Q. You later learned that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what instructions did you give the rescuers who were
attempting to render aid to these trapped victims?
A. I told them they needed to leave the structure because
there was a secondary bomb and that we wouldn't tell the
victims that. We told -- I told them that we had to get some
more -- some heavier equipment to move the concrete.
There were a lot of discussion with them that they
didn't -- the rescuers didn't want to leave, and it took a lot
of persuade -- persuasion right down next to an order for them
to leave the structure.
Then went down to the hole and spoke to Daina myself,
and the other ladies were hollering in the background screaming
for help.
Discussing -- told her that we would be back. She
begged me not to leave her, begged me to -- I wouldn't leave a
dog like this; that it was a situation that you -- if you left
people there and the bomb was real, you would lose the rescuers
along with the victims. If you didn't -- if you allowed
Mike Shannon - Direct
them -- made them leave, you were going to be the person who
were cold-hearted and calloused and not allow emotional aid to
the people trapped.
It put you in a very difficult position to make the
call and to deal with it and to go along with that later.
Q. Harsh words were exchanged?
A. Very harsh words. There were friends that didn't speak to
me for a long time afterwards.
Q. Let me show you Exhibit 997. Can you identify that as a
picture within the Murrah Building that morning?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: We would offer 997.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
THE WITNESS: This is the area behind the Christmas
tree. And the area this way -- I'm not coming off the --
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. There you go.
A. It's not moving.
Well, I'll draw an arrow. If it points this way
towards the end of the screen, just the other side of the pole,
piece of shoring is where Terry was at in a V-shaped collapse
behind that, in that area there.
Q. Terry Shaw?
A. Yes.
Mike Shannon - Direct
Q. Did you know how long it was before Terry Shaw was removed?
A. It was three -- about three hours after we came back from
the second bomb scare.
Q. Let me show you Exhibit 982. Can you identify this
exhibit?
A. Yes. This is a -- this was the main beam of Column 20.
Q. Just a second, Chief Shannon.
A. I'm sorry.
MR. RYAN: Let me offer Exhibit 982.
MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I have a continuing
objection?
THE COURT: It seems to me to be cumulative.
MR. RYAN: That's fine. I'll withdraw the exhibit.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Let me show you Exhibit No. 986.
MR. RYAN: We offer this exhibit, your Honor.
MR. TIGAR: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Where are you going?
MR. RYAN: The point of this, your Honor, is to allow
Chief Shannon to demonstrate to the jury what happened with the
floors of the building.
THE COURT: All right. Objection overruled.
Received.
You may proceed.
Mike Shannon - Direct
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Chief Shannon, with this exhibit, could you explain to the
jury what happened with the building and the floors?
A. There are three types of collapse: a V, a lean-to, and
pancake. And this is a very typical textbook pancake collapse.
You can count many of the floors here, this being the 9, 8, 7,
partial of 6. The areas down in front here were all packed
together from Floors 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 -- were all mixed here.
Down in this area was the day-care center and
memorabilia, articles.
The pancake -- everything between these floors here
and the entire space of the floors was compacted roughly in a
space between my elbow and palm of my hand. All the office
furniture, victims, everybody was compacted into that area, and
that was kind of the biggest profile you could see of the
entire building.
Q. You told us earlier that your concern as the chief was to
reduce the risks and hazards to your firemen and to the
rescuers.
I'd like for you to tell the jury what the primary
risks were to your firemen and to the rescuers.
A. Three primary risks to the people were fall hazards --
things that could fall or swing off of the debris and strike
people -- collapse of the building -- the building was still
relatively unstable and trying to support the building so it
Mike Shannon - Direct
wouldn't continue its collapse -- and then the -- an extreme
amount of biohazards from the deceaseds.
Q. Let me show you Exhibit No. 990. Do you recognize that
exhibit?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer 990.
MR. TIGAR: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled, received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Would this exhibit, Chief Shannon, help you describe the
falling hazard that you recognized from the building?
A. The main slab here was referred to as "the mother slab"
unaffectionately, and the mother slab weighed about
40,000 pounds. The small widowmakers that was down here
because of the wind and the debris would fall at different
times and come close to some of our people rescuing -- some of
the rescue workers and became unnerving.
This type of fall hazards were, as you see up here,
everywhere throughout the building and became a challenge how
to work around it and to remove the hazard.
The risk of the people, intimate risk of the people
being -- having something fall on them and -- was everywhere
throughout the building, from light debris to heavy pieces of
concrete. And the smallest debris I've circled here is
probably 150 to 200 pounds.
Mike Shannon - Direct
Q. You said the second hazard that you recognized was the
potential for the building collapsing.
A. Yes.
Q. In your judgment, how near was this building to collapse?
A. Early on -- it got better as the shoring was put in and
sort of stabilizing the building -- there was different
concerns that the -- if the mother slab fell, she would release
energy on the south side causing the south side to fall south.
And from this part of the building to the east or if this swung
straight down, it would hit into the shoring that had been
built, lateral shoring, causing the front to be sucked to the
south and causing the whole west side of the building to
collapse.
Q. Let me show you Exhibit No. 988, our final exhibit. Can
you identify that exhibit?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: We would offer Exhibit 988.
MR. TIGAR: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. Received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Chief Shannon, what are we seeing in this photograph?
A. I'm sitting there, called the cave -- I'm sitting -- it
looks a lot better now. This is taken about Day 5, Day 4 or 5.
The -- in the cave early on, the biohazards being into this
area -- the cracks in this area produced a lot of body fluids
Mike Shannon - Direct
to be dripping down on the rescue workers while you were in
there digging, and the area you see here is water and body
fluids mixed. A lot of it has been evaporated off, and only
the heavy products are left. Shoring has been established in
this area to make it more safe for the rescuers to work in.
And the far back shoring was cribbing.
And you could get back in that area if you crawled on
your back and you just -- just pushed through the fluids.
You'd tie a rope typically around your ankle; and when you get
back in there, they'd pull you back out. You couldn't mobilely
pull yourself back out. And you'd survey different hazards and
risks and recognize how many victims were left in different
areas, where to direct the people to.
Q. How many days did you spend inside this building following
April 19?
A. 16.
Q. And how many hours did you spend in that building?
A. 288.
Q. In 16 days?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when were the last bodies recovered?
A. That we recovered during that -- a little before midnight
on May 4.
Q. After that, what happened with respect to the building?
A. They had the implosion later on in the month, and they
Mike Shannon - Direct
removed three more from after the implosion.
MR. RYAN: That's all the questions I have, your
Honor.
MR. TIGAR: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness.
MR. MACKEY: Carl Brown.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Carl Brown affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Carl LaRue Brown, last name B-R-O-W-N.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. SENGEL: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. Will you tell us where you live, please, Mr. Brown.
A. I live in Choctaw, Oklahoma, 18300 Whippoorwill Vista.
Q. Where is Choctaw in relation to Oklahoma City?
A. About 15 miles due east of Oklahoma City.
Q. How long have you lived there?
A. Since 1985.
Q. How old are you, sir?
Carl Brown - Direct
A. I am 52 years old. I turn 53 this August.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am. I have a beautiful wife. She is an elementary
teacher, reading specialist. I have one daughter left at home.
She's a graduate of Oklahoma State University.
Q. How many children did you and your wife have?
A. We had three children. My son was hers by a prior
marriage; but when I first dated her, I fell in love with him,
so he's my son by adoption. He's a wonderful young man. We
lost him in 1981 when he was crossing the street. A car hit
him.
Q. Did you lose another daughter in the bombing of the Murrah
Building?
A. Yes, sir, I did. Dana LeAnne Brown, married name Cooper,
was the director of the day-care. She had been in the day-care
approximately three weeks this time.
Q. Did you -- excuse me. I need to ask you another question,
sir, Mr. Brown. Did you lose someone else in the bombing?
A. Yes, I did. My grandson, my only grandson, Anthony
Christopher Cooper -- and we call him Christopher -- was in the
day-care with her. He was two-and-a-half years old.
Q. You mentioned that your daughter, Dana, had been in the
day-care three weeks. What job did she have?
A. She was the director of the day-care. This was her second
time to have worked in that day-care. In 1988 while she was a
Carl Brown - Direct
junior in high school, she entered into the day-care vocation;
and after working at a day-care in Midwest City approximately
two or three months, her -- the owner of that day-care bid upon
the first day-care in the Murrah Building. And when she got
the contract, she moved Dana downtown to help open that center.
And, of course, Dana was in kind of a trainee position where
not only was she a caregiver for the children but she was
somewhat of an intern, learning management skills.
Q. In April of 1995, how old was Dana?
A. Dana was 24 years old. She was born -- she would have
turned 25 in November.
Q. And in April of 1995, how old was Christopher?
A. Christopher was 2 years old in September, so that would
make him 2 years 8 months at the time of the bombing.
Q. I'd like to show you, if you'd like, right in front of you
there, Mr. Brown, the screen, a photograph marked Exhibit
1047A.
A. Yes. That's one of the better pictures of Dana. She --
Q. Just a moment, Mr. Brown.
MR. SENGEL: Your Honor, I'm going to offer 1047A.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, may be shown.
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. Again, if you'd tell us, is this your daughter?
A. Yes, it's my daughter, Dana.
Carl Brown - Direct
Q. How soon was this taken before April of 1995?
A. I believe this picture was probably taken a year, possibly
18 months, two years before the bombing. She really didn't
change much in that time. She looks a lot like my wife did
when my wife was 22 and 23 years old.
Q. I'd like you to look next if you would at another
photograph in front of you. It will be marked as 1047B.
A. That's Christopher, my grandson.
MR. SENGEL: Your Honor, I'm going to offer 1047B.
MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: It's received, may be shown.
BY MR. SENGEL:
Q. And again, how old was Christopher in April of 1995?
A. Christopher was 2 years 8 months old in April of '95. This
picture was probably taken 6 weeks -- maybe not over 6 weeks
prior to the bombing. This is a picture prepared for Easter.
Q. And was Dana married at the time?
A. Yes. She married her childhood sweetheart, Anthony Cooper.
They married in 1990. She finished high school -- well, both
daughters, my younger daughter and Dana, finished high school
in the same year in 1989.
Carrie went on to OSU, and Dana stayed in the
child-care business as well as progressing in her education at
Rose State and Central State. And then in 1990, she married
A. C., Anthony Christopher Cooper, Sr., and the two of them
Carl Brown - Direct
were pursuing their education while -- while she was still in
the day-care, various skills of management level.
Q. You mentioned that Dana was pursuing her education. What
was she training to become?
A. She was pursuing a degree in elementary education at the
time of her death at Central State University. She needed
approximately one more semester, I believe, before she would do
her practice teaching. She wanted to be a kindergarten
teacher.
Dana had such a wonderful, wonderful talent with
children that, you know -- I don't know what caused her to go
into child care; but I do know that she started caring about
children while in junior high school working with the pulpit
ministry in our church. And then as I stated, as a junior in
high school, she started in the day-care business, and she was
pursuing that. She felt like when she moved into management of
day-care she almost had to leave the children, so that's why
she was pursuing the degree as an elementary teacher to be a
kindergarten teacher, so she could be back with the children.
That's where her love was.
Q. Your grandson Christopher: If you would tell us briefly,
what was he like?
A. He was the greatest blessing God ever gave me. Christopher
was -- was a vibrant young man, full of life and happiness. I
can't -- can't really describe just the joys I had with him.
Carl Brown - Direct
Christopher appreciated the things we did with him,
and he returned that with his love.
And all Sunday mornings when we'd be in church, my
youngest daughter, Carrie, sang in the choir at the front of
the church, and A.C. and Dana and Linda, my wife and myself
would sit midway back. And it may seem somewhat immature, but
Carrie and I, as soon as church was dismissed, would rush out,
not running over people but rush back to the nursery to see who
could get there first, because whoever picked up Christopher
got the most wonderful hug from him. And it was -- you know,
he was just that type of boy. And, you know, it's -- I don't
know how else to describe him. He loved to please us; and, of
course, being that way, our whole life was dedicated to
pleasing him.
Q. When were Dana and Christopher's bodies recovered from the
Murrah Building?
A. The bombing on -- occurred on Wednesday morning. We were
fortunate. Christopher was -- we were advised that they had
recovered Christopher on a Saturday afternoon. The following
Sunday, late in the afternoon, we were advised they had
recovered's Dana's body, so we didn't have to wait as long as
many people.
Q. I'd like you to, if you would, please, Mr. Brown, tell us
the effect the loss of Dana has had on your wife and your other
daughter.
Carl Brown - Direct
A. It's been a devastating loss for my whole family. First of
all, I'd like to tell you about my mother, Christopher's
grandmother (sic).
THE COURT: No, Mr. Brown. I understand your wanting
to do that, but we have to stay within limits here.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Carrie loved to do things with Christopher. And when
we lost Christopher, what -- you know, she was -- she was
somewhat devastated. It was a year before she could sit even
back in the choir again.
Carrie will turn 25 this year. She is living at home
because she's the sole surviving member of my children, of
three children. Carrie is all that's left.
When Dana and A. C. first discovered they were
pregnant, our family was tight-knit enough that the way they
announced is that Dana and A. C. came to Oklahoma State
University to Carrie's dorm room while Linda and I were
visiting Carrie; and there in the dorm room, instead of telling
us they were expecting, they asked Carrie, "Would you like to
be an aunt?" And from that time forward, you know, Carrie
was -- was alive, and it -- she still suffers. She can't --
she doesn't socialize near as much as she once did.
My wife has done very well, but she, too, suffers
every time we see children in a restaurant. We can't help but
have a little bit of a tear in our eyes. You know. We see a
Carl Brown - Direct
young child and think of the many blessings that we shared and
enjoyed with Christopher.
For myself, I think I'm recovering, but -- but I would
want you to know that I'm a woodworker by hobby. I love
working with wood. I've done it most of my life. And I made
Christopher's cradle, then I made his highchair, then I made a
rocking-horse-type thing for him which, you know, when he came
into the room seeing that rocking chair sitting in the middle
of the room and then looked at me, the biggest, most beautiful
grin that ever existed just popped on his face, you know.
And -- that's what a woodworker lives for is to -- when you
make toys and see that great, big grin on a child, you know
that that's -- that's the most you can expect out of that day.
There is nothing better.
That's gone now.
I had -- had two or three toys in process in my
garage. I'd already made some toys for him for Christmas, and
he had played with those; and I had pictures of him doing that
that I cherish dearly. But those two or three