PUBLIC NOTICE RE: ELECTRONIC TRANSCRIPT COPY CERTIFIABILITY
WARNING: This electronic transmission of the official transcript of proceedings is deemed certifiable only to the extent that the reader of this message is viewing a first-generation authorized transmission. All subsequent transmissions of this first-generation electronic copy and all copies printed therefrom are unauthorized and non-certifiable, and the Official Reporter assumes no responsibility for consequences stemming from the use of such unauthorized non-certifiable copy. Responsibility for such consequences is that of the person or organization whose use of a non-certifiable unauthorized transmission or printed copy creates those consequences, including civil liability arising therefrom. No portion of this file may be redistributed or resold without permission, pursuant to California Government Code Section 69954(d). Authorized certifiable transcript copies are protected by digital signature. If you would like to purchase an official transcript of the proceedings, contact NetCourt, 1316 Harding Place, Charlotte, North Carolina, 28204 or click here.
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
2 DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE
3
SHARON RUFO, ET AL., )
4 )
PLAINTIFFS, )
5 )
VS. )NO. SC031947
6 )
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ET AL., )
7 )
DEFENDANTS. )
8 _________________________________________)
9
10
11
REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT
12
DECEMBER 20, 1996
13
VOLUME 36
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
REGINA D. CHAVEZ, CSR #8446
25 OFFICIAL REPORTER
26
27
28
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI ESQ.,
3 THOMAS LAMBERT, ESQ.,
PETER GELBLUM, ESQ., and
4 EDWARD MEDVENE, ESQ.
Firm: MITCHELL SILBERBERG & KNUPP
5 11377 West Olympic Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90064-1663
6 For: Plaintiff Goldman
7
8 JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Ave.
9 New York, NY 10017-5090.
For: Plaintiff the Estate of
10 Nicole Brown Simpson
11
12 MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
Firm: HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
13 444 South Flower St.
Los Angeles, CA 90071.
14 For: Plaintiff Rufo
15
16 PAUL F. CALLAN, ESQ.
Firm: CALLAN, REGENSTREICH,
17 KOSTER & BRADY
One Whitehall St.
18 New York, NY 10004
For: Plaintiff Estate of.
19 Ronald L. Goldman
20
21 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: ROBERT C. BAKER, ESQ.,
MELISSA BLUESTEIN, ESQ., and
22 PHILIP BAKER, ESQ.
Firm: BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
23 2650 Ocean Park Blvd., #300
Santa Monica, CA 90405-2936.
24
-and-
25
DANIEL LEONARD, ESQ. and
26 ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQ.
Firm: BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD.
27 6355 Riverside Blvd.
Suite 2-F
28 Sacramento, CA 95831
3
1 CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
DEFENDANTS' WITNESSES: PAGE
2 ---------------------- -----
GRODEN, ROBERT (Resumed)
3 DIRECT (L) 2
CROSS (G) 6
4
5 RIEDERS, FREDERIC
DIRECT (BL) 119
6
RIEDERS,
7 CROSS (TL) 159
REDIRECT (BL) 199
8
9 Legend: (B) = Mr. Robert B. Baker
(BL) = Mr. Blasier
10 (BR) = Mr. Brewer
(C) = Mr. Callan
11 (G) = Mr. Gelblum
(K) = Mr. Kelly
12 (L) = Mr. Leonard
(M) = Mr. Medvene
13 (MB) = Ms. Bluestein
(P) = Mr. Petrocelli
14 (PB) = Mr. Philip Baker
(TL) = Mr. Lambert
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
4
1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS MARKED FOR I.D.
2
PLAINTIFFS'
3 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
----------- ------------ -----
4
2284 Copy of Mr. Groden's resume 36
5
2285 Curriculum Vitae of Robert Groden 44
6
2282 Copy of appendix to hearings 61
7
2071 Copy of a photograph with markings 77
8
2072 Copy of a photograph with markings 77
9
2072 Blow-up of Exhibit 2072 80
10
2076 Copy of a photograph with markings 77
11
2287 Blow-up of Exhibit 2071 77
12
2288 Blow-up of Exhibit 2076 78
13
2290 Photograph back of a camera 87
14
1924 Contact sheet 89
15
2291 Copy of notes of Mr. Groden 106
16
561 Chart dated 2/19/95 RE: EDTA 161
17 analysis
18 562 Six test charts collectively 166
19 566 Chart dated 2/23/95 RE: EDTA 166
analysis
20
2294 Comparative chart 171
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
5
1 DEFENDANTS'
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
2 ---------- ----------- -----
3 1931 Blow-up from the 1-1 photograph 3
purported to be Mr. Simpson's
4 left leg
5 1215 Chromatogram of Q206 No. 4088 132
6 1216 Chromatogram of Q206 No. 4094 132
7 1208 EDTA chart with six charts 134
collectively
8
1218 Chromatogram of Q204 No. 4084 138
9
1219 Chromatogram of Q204 No. 4049 138
10
2292 Chart labeled repeat of Q204 140
11
2293 Chart labled control from Q204 140
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
6
1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE
2 PLAINTIFFS'
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
3 ---------- ------------ -----
4 561 203
5 566 203
6 2294 203
7
8 DEFENDANTS'
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
9 ---------- ------------- -----
10 1208 203
11 1215 203
12 1216 203
13 1218 204
14 1219 204
15 2292 204
16 2293 204
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
1
1 SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1996
2 9:14 A.M.
3 DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE
4 APPEARANCES: (AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
5
6 (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER)
7
8 (The jurors resumed their
9 respective seats.)
10
11 THE COURT: Morning.
12 MR. PETROCELLI: Morning.
13 JURORS: Morning.
14 MR. GELBLUM: Based on Mr. Leonard's
15 representation that he has only three or four minutes
16 left, he's asked to reopen, and we've agreed. It's
17 three or four minutes.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 THE CLERK: Sir, you are still understand oath.
20 Would you state your name again for the
21 record.
22 THE WITNESS: Robert Groden.
23 THE CLERK: Thank you.
24 MR. LEONARD: Morning, Mr. Groden.
25 THE WITNESS: Morning
26
27
28
2
1 ROBERT GRODEN
2 the witness on the stand at the time of adjournment on
3 Wedensday, Decmeber 18, 1996, having been previously
4 duly sworn, was examined and testified further as
5 follows:
6
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
8 BY MR. LEONARD:
9 Q. Mr. Groden, did we have an opportunity
10 yesterday to come to the courtroom and work a little
11 more with the Elmo machine?
12 A. Yes, we did.
13 Q. As a result of that, were you able to
14 illustrate a couple of these points a little bit
15 better?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, with the Court's
19 permission, I'd ask that Mr. Groden be permitted to
20 walk down, and I can examine him from the Elmo, so he
21 can manipulate it.
22 And what I'd like to -- what I'd like to
23 do is, display one image that you -- but he's going to
24 point out some of these elements again.
25 We really need to turn all the lights out
26 in the courtroom, if that's acceptable, just for 30
27 seconds.
28 THE COURT: All right.
3
1 MR. LEONARD: Thank you.
2 MR. P. BAKER: The photograph on the machine is
3 1931.
4
5 (The instrument herein referred to
6 as Blow-up from the 1-1 photograph
7 purported to be Mr. Simpson's left
8 leg, was marked for identification
9 as Defendants' Exhibit No. 1931.)
10
11 MR. LEONARD: As soon as you're set up, turn
12 the lights out.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 THE COURT: Yes?
15 JUROR: I just need to ask the deputy something
16 real quickly, if you don't mind.
17 Pardon me.
18 THE BAILIFF: May I approach?
19
20 (Bailiff and court converse sotto
21 voce.)
22
23 THE COURT: (The Court indicates to candy.)
24 JUROR: Thank you. My fellow juror has saved
25 me.
26
27
28
4
1 (One juror hands another juror a
2 cough drop.
3 Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Do you have the -- do
4 you have the image in the position you want it, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 THE COURT: You're going to have to speak
7 loudly, because we can't hear you.
8 THE WITNESS: All right.
9
10 (Lights are switched off.)
11
12 Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Now, can you -- first
13 of all, just so the record is clear, this is a --
14 would you describe what this is?
15 A. This is a close-up of the left leg from
16 the 1-1 photograph or a blow-up of the 1-1 photograph
17 purported to be Mr. Simpson's leg.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Now, why don't you show again, the
20 anomaly that you discovered in this portion of the
21 photograph.
22 A. Yes. What we were describing the other
23 day is this area along here (indicating), this darker
24 area with the vertical stripes on it, that looks very
25 much like a worm, or a retouching mark. It alternates
26 back light and so on, and so on, which -- what appears
27 to be brush strokes or digital domain, could be
28 interpreted as being cleaning, which is a way of
5
1 duplicating one specific area within the photograph
2 and putting it to another point.
3 This is an anomaly that is not common.
4 This is not graphic grain; it does not appear in any
5 way to be photographic grain, but does appear to be
6 retouching.
7 Q. There another elements on the other leg
8 that you wanted to illustrate a little more clearly?
9 A. Yes, there is.
10
11 (Witness adjusts Elmo.)
12
13 The horizontal line I discussed is this
14 (indicating), where it is lighter, below that point
15 and darker above. And at the point where the
16 horizontal line goes through the line there, is what
17 appears to be obvious retouching or some anomaly that
18 does not belong. This is not part of the actual,
19 original photograph.
20 That pretty much displays it as much as
21 we can with this.
22 MR. LEONARD: Okay.
23 We can turn the lights back on.
24
25 (Bailiffs comply.)
26
27 MR. LEONARD: You may retake the stand.
28
6
1 (Witness complies.)
2
3 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, with that, I don't
4 have any further questions on direct.
5 THE COURT: Okay. You may cross-examine.
6 MR. GELBLUM: Thank you, Your Honor.
7
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. GELBLUM:
10 Q. Morning, Mr. Groden.
11 A. Morning.
12 Q. You're aware, sir, aren't you, that
13 you're not the first person the defense hired to
14 examine this photograph?
15 MR. LEONARD: Misstates the evidence, Your
16 Honor.
17 Q. You're not aware what your -- that the
18 defense retained a man named Pat Clark, who took the
19 photographs -- Buffalo, New York --
20 THE COURT REPORTER: Your Honor, I didn't get
21 that question. I'm sorry.
22 MR. BAKER: Since it was stricken, we ask it
23 not be repeated.
24 THE COURT: No, you will not repeat it. You
25 will approach the bench.
26 MR. GELBLUM: I will, Your Honor.
27
28 (The following proceedings were
7
1 held at the bench, with the
2 reporter.)
3
4 MR. PETROCELLI: I was present at the Scull
5 deposition with Mr. Baker in Buffalo, New York, and he
6 had a man by the name of Pat Clark, from Hy Zazula
7 Associates present at the deposition.
8 A break was taken, and Mr. Clark, with a
9 magnifying glass and some lights, looked at the
10 negatives and looked at all the subject photos while
11 we're at the Scull deposition, over a period of time
12 in the course of the deposition. And his name is
13 identified right here (indicating) on the record.
14 THE COURT: What is the relevance of that --
15 MR. PETROCELLI: Now, because --
16 THE COURT: -- with regards to this witness?
17 MR. PETROCELLI: We're entitled to know whether
18 this witness is aware of the fact that there has been
19 another examination of that photo by the defense, and
20 what that expert's opinion was -- that expert opined
21 that it was an authentic photograph, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: You may ask him whether or not he's
23 aware of an opinion by somebody else in forming his
24 own opinion, but that's it.
25 MR. GELBLUM: Whether he's aware --
26 THE COURT: You can't get into the fact that
27 some other expert examined it through this witness.
28 MR. PETROCELLI: If he's aware of it --
8
1 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor --
2 MR. PETROCELLI: He relied on this deposition.
3 He read this deposition. That was brought out on
4 direct examination, that this is one of the pieces of
5 information that he relied on in rendering his
6 opinion.
7 MR. GELBLUM: In the transcript, it says
8 that -- it refers to the fact that he examined the
9 photographs, Mr. Clark, and he's read this deposition.
10 MR. LEONARD: Wait.
11 MR. BAKER: Your Honor, we're entitled -- and
12 we had, because we had never seen this photo, and we
13 were entitled to, and had a consultant there. That
14 consultant was never named as an expert in the case;
15 he was simply a consultant and to help me -- I'm not a
16 photo expert -- to ask questions. And he did
17 certainly look the at the photo.
18 They're not entitled to any -- ask any
19 questions about consultants that we had.
20 THE COURT: Did this consultant testify?
21 MR. PETROCELLI: No, he never testified, Your
22 Honor.
23 THE COURT: Then what's the relevance?
24 MR. PETROCELLI: Whether he relied on anything
25 that person said or did, which is part of the
26 deposition on which this witness relied upon in giving
27 his distinct opinion.
28 MR. BAKER: He did not. There's nothing in
9
1 this deposition about Mr. Pat Clark's opinion. It's
2 just a cheap shot.
3 THE COURT: Just a minute. Show me where he
4 stated an opinion.
5 MR. PETROCELLI: Whose opinion?
6 MR. GELBLUM: He didn't.
7 THE COURT: Their expert.
8 MR. PETROCELLI: He did not state an opinion.
9 This fellow, on direct, stated as part of his
10 testimony, that he relied on this deposition
11 transcript.
12 THE COURT: Excuse me. What is it that he
13 relied on with respect to the other expert?
14 MR. PETROCELLI: That's what we're trying to
15 find out, when he talked to him.
16 THE COURT: Excuse me?
17 MR. PETROCELLI: When he talked to --
18 THE COURT: Did the expert say anything about
19 those photographs?
20 MR. PETROCELLI: Did this fellow --
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. PETROCELLI: -- talk on the record? No.
23 THE COURT: Then it's sustained.
24 MR. PETROCELLI: On what theory?
25 THE COURT: On the theory there's nothing in
26 here which he relied upon with regards to his opinion.
27 MR. PETROCELLI: Suppose this fellow had a
28 conversation with Mr. Clark?
10
1 THE COURT: Why don't you ask him that.
2 MR. PETROCELLI: That's what we want to ask
3 him; that's what we're trying to do.
4 MR. BAKER: I'll represent to the Court they've
5 never spoken.
6 THE COURT: You can ask whether they spoke,
7 period.
8 MR. PETROCELLI: Fair enough.
9 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, why didn't they ask
10 him that at his deposition?
11 He never spoke to him.
12 THE COURT: Beats the hell out of me. And it
13 doesn't matter.
14
15 (The following proceedings were
16 held in open court, in the
17 presence of the jury.)
18
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, you ever
20 spoken with a gentleman named Pat Clark at Hy Zazula
21 and Associates in New York City?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Before you took this assignment,
24 Mr. Groden, you knew that the defendant and his
25 lawyers were trying to prove the picture was a fake,
26 right?
27 A. I knew there was an issue relating to
28 that, yes.
11
1 Q. You knew the defendant and his lawyers
2 were trying to prove the picture was a fake?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. LEONARD: Objection. That's argumentative.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) The answer is yes, you
7 did know that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you knew you wouldn't be asked to
10 come to court to testify unless you said it was a
11 fake, right?
12 MR. LEONARD: Argumentative, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 A. I would assume I would not have been
15 called if I'd have not found that.
16 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) How much time did you
17 spend with Mr. Leonard preparing for your testimony,
18 on Wednesday?
19 A. Two or three hours.
20 Q. You went over your opinion you would
21 be --
22 A. Basically, we went over photographs that
23 morning, nothing else.
24 Q. And you went over what you -- what you
25 were going to say when you got on the stand, correct?
26 A. We discussed, yes, things relating to the
27 photographs.
28 Q. You looked at photographs?
12
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Leonard looked at the photographs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you and he both had the contact
5 sheets that we have today, so you had all the pictures
6 in front of you?
7 A. We had the two contact sheets and the
8 enlargements that we discussed, yes.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Leonard asked you whether you
10 were a professional witness, and you said you were
11 not; is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And you're also not a professional photo
14 analyst, are you?
15 A. Well, I've been paid.
16 Q. Yes-or-no question, sir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You are?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And have you ever had any formal training
21 in analyzing photographs?
22 A. I have my own experience, yes.
23 Q. The question was asked, have you ever had
24 any formal training in learning how to determine
25 whether a photograph is authentic?
26 A. No.
27 Q. You've never taught a course in
28 photography, right?
13
1 A. No.
2 Q. Never published anything in the field of
3 questioned photographs, correct?
4 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 MR. GELBLUM: I can ask again:
7 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You never published
8 anything in the field of questioned photographs,
9 correct?
10 MR. LEONARD: Withdrawn.
11 A. That's not true.
12 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Remember having your
13 deposition taken in this case --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- just couple months ago?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Page 43, line 24, Mr. Leonard.
18 Remember being asked this question:
19
20 (Reading:)
21
22 Q. And you've never published
23 anything in the area -- in the field of
24 questioned photographs?
25 A. Like a textbook?
26 Q. Anything.
27 A. No.
28 Remember giving that testimony?
14
1 A. Relating to a textbook situation, yes;
2 but I have spoken about --
3 Q. Mr. Groden --
4 A. -- photographs.
5 Q. Mr. Groden, you don't have to make an
6 argument.
7 A. I'm not trying to.
8 Q. Remember giving that testimony that you
9 had never published anything in the field of
10 questioned photographs?
11 A. We've clarified it as a textbook. In
12 that case, yes; that is true.
13 Q. Would you like to see it?
14 Let me put the testimony up on the Elmo.
15 There was a second question, sir, page
16 43, line 24. See that, sir?
17 (Reading:)
18 Q. And you never published
19 anything in the area of the in the field
20 of questioned photographs.
21 A. Like a textbook?
22 Q. Anything.
23 A. No.
24 You see that?
25 A. Yes, I see that.
26 MR. GELBLUM: Okay. You can take it off.
27 (Mr. Foster complies.)
28
15
1 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Would you tell the jury
2 which professional organizations you belong to in the
3 field of questioned photographs?
4 A. None.
5 Q. How about in the -- the field of
6 photography with a professional organization?
7 A. None.
8 Q. Do you know the names of any professional
9 organizations that deal with questioned photographs?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you certified by any professional
12 organization in the area of authenticating
13 photographs?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you ever received any awards for
16 photo analysis work?
17 A. Directly, no.
18 Q. And before this case, you've never
19 qualified to testify as an expert in court, have you?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. This is your first time in court as an
22 expert, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Pretty exited about doing this?
25 A. Not particularly.
26 Q. New way for you to make some money?
27 A. Strange question.
28 Q. Can you answer it?
16
1 A. Would you repeat the question.
2 Q. Yeah.
3 You see this as a new way for you to make
4 some money in your career, sir, testifying as an
5 expert in court?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How much you being paid, by the way?
8 A. About $8,000.
9 Q. That's how much you've been paid so far?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What's your daily rate?
12 A. $2,000.
13 Q. Per day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And have you been paid everything you've
16 billed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And have you done some work you haven't
19 billed for yet?
20 A. I'm here today. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. You already got paid for
22 Wednesday --
23 A. No.
24 Q. -- did you?
25 A. That's not true.
26 Yes, I have been, yes.
27 Q. That's pretty serious money for you,
28 isn't it, Mr. Groden, $8,000?
17
1 A. Not really, no.
2 Q. Well, as recently as a few months ago,
3 weren't you spending some of your time out on the
4 street in Dealey Plaza, hawking videotapes?
5 A. I was selling my videotapes, yes.
6 Q. Out on the street in Dallas?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, why don't you tell the jury what you
9 do for a living?
10 A. I'm a writer.
11 Q. What do you write about?
12 A. The assassination of President Kennedy.
13 Q. Mr. Leonard asked you something about if
14 you retained an interest in the Kennedy assassination
15 since the late '70s. Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Little more than an interest in it, isn't
18 it, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It's your life, isn't it?
21 A. It's my life's work.
22 Q. Okay.
23 How many books have you written about the
24 Kennedy assassination?
25 A. I've been involved in writing five books
26 on the case.
27 Q. You haven't written a book about any
28 other subject, have you?
18
1 A. No.
2 Q. And how many videotapes did you produce
3 about the Kennedy assassination?
4 A. Two.
5 Q. Was one of them reedited, and -- two
6 forms of one of them?
7 A. That's correct, yes.
8 Q. Which one is that?
9 A. It's called JFK, The Case for Conspiracy.
10 Q. And you also have consulted on some
11 movies about the Kennedy assassination?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is there anything else you do for a
14 living?
15 A. Right now, no.
16 Q. Can you tell the jury what the JFK
17 Presidential Limo Tour is, sir?
18 A. The JFK Limo Tour is a recreation of the
19 motorcade route for students of history, people who
20 are concerned with the issues of the assassination.
21 And it -- it started, I believe, last August in
22 Dallas.
23 Q. And what's your role in that?
24 A. Now?
25 Q. Yeah.
26 A. None.
27 Q. You had some role in August?
28 A. Yes.
19
1 Q. And you would write, and what happens is,
2 they take -- is it a mock-up of the actual
3 presidential limo that President Kennedy was shot in?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. You drive that from Love Field, where he
6 landed that day, and take that route, and end up at
7 Parkland Hospital?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You have speakers in the car that have
10 the gunshots and things like that --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you sit in the car and narrate?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you not repair photo-processing
15 machines anymore?
16 A. I haven't in many, many months.
17 Q. Are you doing any photo processing these
18 days?
19 A. Not these days, no.
20 Q. When did you stop doing that work?
21 A. Possibly, last summer. I would say a
22 year ago this past summer.
23 Q. Before your deposition on September 27?
24 A. Of this year?
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Don't you recall telling me on
28 September 27, that you repair photo-processing
20
1 machines?
2 A. I do.
3 You just asked me whether I was still
4 doing it now, and I said I haven't done it in several
5 months.
6 Q. You said you stopped before your
7 deposition, right?
8 A. Well, I would still do it if the
9 opportunity came up. I'm not doing it now.
10 Q. Okay.
11 But you weren't doing it at the time of
12 the deposition, even though you told me you were,
13 right?
14 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, Mr. Leonard asked
17 you some questions on Wednesday about the House Select
18 Committee on Assassination. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the only one congressional
21 committee you've been a consultant to?
22 A. As a formal consultant, yes.
23 Q. Now, in terms of your education, you
24 dropped out of high school after the 11th grade; is
25 that right?
26 A. That's correct.
27 Q. Okay. Then you spent a year in the Army?
28 A. That's correct.
21
1 Q. And a year of college in the Army?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. No photographic courses during that year?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Am I correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why did you leave the Army after one
8 year?
9 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Not relevant.
10 THE COURT: I don't know if it is or not.
11 MR. LEONARD: Can we approach?
12 THE COURT: You may.
13
14 (The following proceedings were
15 held at the bench, with the
16 reporter.)
17
18 MR. GELBLUM: What our argument, Your Honor, is
19 going to be, is that this man is not playing with a
20 full deck and was discharged from the Army; it is
21 related to that.
22 THE COURT: Excuse me?
23 MR. GELBLUM: His discharge from the Army is
24 related to instability.
25 MR. LEONARD: What?
26 THE COURT: You have to be a little more
27 specific than that.
28 MR. GELBLUM: Medical reasons relating to his
22
1 inability to cope with military life.
2 MR. LEONARD: What does that have to do with
3 anything?
4 MR. GELBLUM: Our contention is that this man
5 is not a particularly stable person. He doesn't have
6 any business testifying in court at all, much less as
7 an expert.
8 MR. LEONARD: Number one is, why wasn't this
9 raised during the voir dire, if you felt he was
10 unstable. You were making an argument that he wasn't
11 an expert.
12 Number two, how can you -- the guy's 51
13 years old -- you're trying to connect up a problem
14 which he may or may not have had when he was 18 years
15 old to now. Is that what you're trying to do, based
16 on -- on a -- on perceived problems he had in the
17 Army? How is that relevant?
18 MR. GELBLUM: Remember, Dan, you went back to
19 when he was 12 or 13 years old when his interest in
20 photography --
21 MR. LEONARD: I remember, yeah.
22 MR. GELBLUM: This is more recent.
23 THE COURT: I'll allow you reasonable --
24 MR. GELBLUM: It's just one question. I'm just
25 going to ask him the reason. Whatever he says --
26 THE COURT: All right.
27
28
23
1 (The following proceedings were
2 held in open court, in the
3 presence of the jury.)
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Sir, you left the Army
5 after only one year because of some health problem; is
6 that right?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. What was the problem?
9 A. Sinus problems.
10 Q. Sinus?
11 A. Sinus problems.
12 There are actually two -- two separate
13 issues. One was a sinus problem that they were not
14 able to resolve, and the second was the fact that I
15 was -- I was beaten up by a sergeant. And to sweep it
16 under the rug, they gave me a discharge instead.
17 Q. Did you have some inability to cope with
18 military life, sir?
19 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative,
20 irrelevant.
21 THE COURT: Overruled.
22 A. Did I?
23 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Yeah.
24 A. I coped with it for a year until the
25 discharge.
26 Q. Didn't you testify before the Rockefeller
27 Commission, sir, in the 1970s sometime?
28 A. Yes.
24
1 Q. Didn't you tell them the reason you left
2 the Army was you had an inability to cope with
3 military life, having something to do with a medical
4 problem?
5 A. I don't recall what I said to them back
6 then.
7 Q. Would you like to see your testimony?
8 A. Sure.
9
10 (Mr. Gelblum hands document to
11 witness.)
12
13 MR. LEONARD: Can I see it, Counsel?
14 MR. GELBLUM: Before he gives the answer.
15 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Wait. Before you give
16 this answer, do you recognize this as your Rockefeller
17 Commission testimony?
18 A. No, I don't, but it might well be.
19 MR. GELBLUM: Want to look it over?
20 MR. LEONARD: May we have a date?
21 MR. GELBLUM: I don't -- I have just an
22 excerpt.
23 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, can we approach?
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) When did you testify
25 before the Rockefeller Commission?
26 A. I believe 1975.
27 Q. Does that look like your testimony?
28 A. I can't say that it is; I can't say it
25
1 isn't.
2 I don't recognize this as my testimony.
3 Q. You don't?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You sure you testified before the
6 Rockefeller Commission?
7 A. Yes. Oh, yes.
8 Q. What did you testify about?
9 A. About the Kennedy assassination.
10 Q. Remember being questioned at length about
11 your credentials?
12 A. No, I don't have any --
13 Q. Why don't you read that over.
14
15 (Witness reviews document.)
16
17 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You recognize that now
18 as your Rockefeller Commission testimony?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. Is this a fake?
21 A. I don't know. I have not seen my
22 Rockefeller Commission testimony since I gave it.
23 Q. You don't remember being questioned about
24 your credentials by the Rockefeller Commission?
25 MR. LEONARD: Asked and answered.
26 A. It was more than 20 years ago.
27 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) That's when your
28 experience with altered photographs is, 20 years ago?
26
1 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Misstates his
2 testimony. It's argumentative.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, speaking about
5 that experience, Mr. Leonard had you talk about your
6 experience creating fake photographs on Wednesday.
7 Remember that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That was mostly what you talked about,
10 was creating advertisements with a can of hair spray
11 in the air. Remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, when that's created, what
14 elements -- is that created from that fake
15 advertising?
16 A. It -- it can vary. Depends on what's
17 submitted. It could be flat art; it could be slides;
18 it could be negatives; it could be photographic
19 prints. It could be any number of things.
20 Q. Those are things that are submitted and
21 created for the purpose of creating that composite
22 photograph, correct?
23 A. Um-hum, yes.
24 Q. It's not taking a photograph as to be
25 taken for some other purpose and altering it, correct?
26 A. That could happen if somebody wanted a
27 background that was taken for some other reason.
28 Q. Is -- you just said, generally speaking,
27
1 you're taking pictures or other elements that are made
2 for the purpose of creating this composite, and then
3 you create the composite, correct?
4 A. That's a fair assessment, yes.
5 Q. Now, you also testified on Wednesday that
6 you -- this is a quote -- "I believe I occasionally
7 consult with others regarding the authenticity of
8 photographs." Is that right?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. "Occasionally" means that, in your entire
11 life, there have been two times where somebody has
12 paid you to try to determine the authenticity of a
13 photograph, correct?
14 A. I can't say that's accurate, no.
15 Q. Do you remember testifying Wednesday
16 morning, outside the presence of the jury, sir, in
17 this courtroom?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And do you remember we talked about this,
20 and you identified two times where you had done that?
21 You going to change your testimony now?
22 A. I don't want to change anything.
23 What you asked me then, I do not believe
24 is what you asked me now.
25 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that in your entire
26 life, that you have been paid to determine whether a
27 photograph is authentic exactly twice?
28 A. That is not true.
28
1 Q. Okay. How many times, sir?
2 A. I can't tell you how many times. I can
3 tell you several occasions, more than two.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Did you forget to mention those at your
6 deposition two months ago, sir, three months ago?
7 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Do you remember having
10 your deposition taken?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Remember I asked you about all the times
13 you had been paid to determine the authenticity of
14 photographs?
15 Remember that question?
16 And you remember how many you listed?
17 A. I don't remember exactly how many. I
18 don't remember the terms of the question.
19 Q. In fact, at the time of the deposition,
20 you actually identified once, didn't you?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. Do you have a problem with your memory?
23 A. You've just asked me a question.
24 Q. Answer my question. Do you have a
25 problem --
26 MR. LEONARD: Argumentative.
27 THE COURT: Overruled.
28 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) This is a real
29
1 question, sir.
2 Do you have a problem with your memory?
3 A. My memory is not always the greatest.
4 Q. You've had some strokes, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did it affect your memory?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 I'd like to you look at --
10 MR. GELBLUM: Mr. Leonard, this is on pages 30
11 to 31 of the deposition.
12 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) If you can review this,
13 sir, starting at page 30, line -- line 2 -- I'm sorry.
14 Up here, page 29, line 21, down to page 31 line 17.
15
16 (Witness reviews transcript.)
17
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Remember I asked you about jobs you had,
21 where somebody had paid you for determining the
22 authenticity of a photograph?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. You said the National Enquirer, 14 years
25 ago?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And then you said -- I asked you if there
28 were any others, and you said, "none I can think of
30
1 right at the moment"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then you thought of another one?
4 A. How do you mean?
5 Q. Did you think of another one because you
6 told me at deposition there was the one?
7 A. No. During the deposition, you asked me,
8 except for the House Assassinations Committee.
9 Q. You weren't a paid consultant?
10 A. For the House Committee?
11 Q. Yeah.
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And your job there was what?
14 A. Many things, such as determining the
15 authenticity of photographs.
16 Q. Let me put aside the House Committee for
17 a second. We'll deal with that in quite a bit of
18 detail later on.
19 Putting that aside, how many times have
20 you been paid to determine the authenticity of a
21 photograph?
22 A. Not counting the House Assassinations
23 Committee, as I recall, twice.
24 Q. Twice.
25 So, a minute ago, when I asked you how
26 many times, you said you couldn't remember.
27 It's three, right? Two plus the house?
28 That's 3?
31
1 A. I did it several times for the House
2 Committee. It wasn't just once.
3 Q. That's one job, right? The House and
4 then two other jobs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 And let's talk about those two jobs.
8 One was the National Enquirer, 14 years
9 ago?
10 A. Approximately.
11 Q. That was something about a voodoo ritual?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in fact, you didn't have to examine
14 that closely; you looked at it and saw there was
15 static electricity that was causing the problem?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That wasn't an altered photograph, right?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How much were you paid for that, by the
20 way?
21 A. I don't recall at all.
22 Q. You sure you got paid?
23 A. Pretty much so, yes.
24 Q. Now, the second one was -- was what?
25 What was your second job that you had
26 where somebody paid you to determine the authenticity
27 of a photograph?
28 MR. LEONARD: I assume we're still setting
32
1 aside the House --
2 MR. GELBLUM: We are indeed.
3 MR. LEONARD: Okay.
4 A. Someone came to me about -- about four
5 years ago, and had a series of photographs that
6 purported to show what was claimed to be spiritual
7 entities within a photograph. And I was asked to see
8 if I could find any evidence of tampering with the
9 photographs.
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And again, it was
11 pretty easy to look at. You looked at it and saw
12 there was fogging on the print, right?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Well, not a big, detailed analysis of
15 altered photographs, right?
16 A. Not to determine that, no.
17 Q. All right.
18 And again, putting aside the House
19 Committee for a minute, in addition to those two,
20 there's only one other time in your life when somebody
21 has asked to you determine the authenticity of a
22 photograph, where you didn't get paid, correct?
23 A. No, that's not true.
24 Q. Well --
25 Reading from your deposition, starting at
26 page 31, line 18.
27 Q. Now, tell me about any
28 time that you've worked for somebody
33
1 else, without getting paid, where the
2 job involved determining the
3 authenticity of a negative or a print.
4 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I'm going to object.
5 That is -- there's -- that's a different question than
6 he just asked. He asked if he had ever been asked by
7 anyone. Now's he asked him if he ever worked for
8 anyone. That's a different question. I object to
9 that.
10 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer it.
11 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) All right. Let me ask
12 you this one, sir, since we're apparently splitting
13 hairs up there.
14 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Move to strike that
15 statement.
16 THE COURT: Stricken.
17 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Other than the National
18 Enquirer and this other photo with the nothing gone,
19 and the -- and the spirits, how many times have you
20 worked for somebody without getting paid, determining
21 the authenticity of a photograph?
22 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 A. How would you define "worked?" Looking
25 at a photograph, studying it? What do you mean by
26 that?
27 Q. Well, did you just phase out for a
28 second?
34
1 Didn't you hear your counsel use the word
2 "work" and you nodded?
3 A. No. I nodded that you were
4 misrepresenting the question.
5 Q. I see.
6 Let's read the deposition now.
7 Now, tell me about any time that
8 you've worked for somebody else without
9 getting paid, where the job involved
10 determining the authenticity of a
11 negative or a print.
12 You didn't say anything about not
13 understanding the word "worked."
14
15 A. About a month ago, a new
16 photograph turned up in Dallas that
17 shows the road sign that's blocking the
18 view from Abraham (phonetic) section
19 up -- standpoint from where the
20 president was in this photograph, which
21 had never been seen before, seemed to
22 show what appeared to be a bullet hole
23 in the sign.
24 Now, if there had been a
25 bullet hole there, it would have been
26 very interesting, because it would have
27 proven other than what was found.
28 What it actually was, it
35
1 was just a printing mistake. The way I
2 determined that was the so-called bullet
3 hole was about 300 percent sharper than
4 the rest of the picture, which is a
5 physical impossibility with photographic
6 signs.
7 Q. Did you get the negative?
8 A. No, but I can get the
9 negative.
10 Q. What?
11 A. Just from the print
12 itself, I could determine that -- I
13 could determine that if it had been a
14 closer situation, if it hadn't been so
15 incredibly obvious to me, if it had
16 looked genuine, I would have had to -- I
17 would have to examine the negative to
18 determine one way or the other.
19 Q. Did you determine that was
20 a printing error or a deliberate
21 forgery?
22 A. No; it seemed to be an
23 error. It didn't seem to be a forgery.
24 Q. And that's the same thing
25 with the National Enquirer photo of the
26 spirit; it was static electricity in the
27 negative?
28 A. In that particular case,
36
1 yes.
2 MR. LEONARD: I'm going to object at this
3 point.
4 MR. GELBLUM: It's the next couple of
5 questions.
6 Q. Any other time where
7 somebody else has asked to you determine
8 whether a photograph was authentic?
9 A. None that I can think of
10 at the moment. But if I do, I'll let
11 you know.
12 Q. Now is the time?
13 A. No. I can't think of any
14 right now.
15 Remember that testimony?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you have a resume, don't you, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Leonard didn't use this yesterday,
20 but I want to show it to you.
21 MR. GELBLUM: If we could have this marked next
22 in order.
23 THE CLERK: 2284.
24
25
26 (The instrument herein referred to
27 as Copy of Mr. Groden's resume
28 was marked for identification as
37
1 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2284.)
2
3
4 MR. LEONARD: Peter, can I see a copy of that,
5 please.
6 MR. GELBLUM: Yes.
7
8 (Mr. Gelblum hands Plaintiffs'
9 Exhibit 2284 to the witness.)
10
11 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Take a look at that and
12 confirm if that's your resume -- actually, three pages
13 of a resume and another five pages of what you call a
14 profile?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you created this document, these
19 documents?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Now, this resume starts out on the first
22 page, work history, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the first entry is videotape
25 production and editing?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Let the jury see what are you're looking
28 at here.
38
1
2 (Document displayed on Elmo.)
3
4 Q. First entry is videotape production and
5 editing, next entry is photographic optical affects
6 experience, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you say in the second sentence there
9 that you've worked on many major motion pictures
10 including one called "Executive Action."
11 What did you do on that movie, sir?
12 A. I was a consultant, not hired by the
13 production company itself, but had made suggestions to
14 deal with the creation of motorcade footage relating
15 to the assassination.
16 In other words, finding relevant footage
17 and connecting between the production company as
18 liaison and the optical house where it was produced.
19 Q. Who did you make those suggestions to?
20 A. Well, among others, there were probably a
21 couple of researchers involved, I did, from the
22 optical house itself.
23 Q. You didn't get a credit on the film, did
24 you?
25 A. No.
26 Q. And on the second page -- I'm sorry, the
27 bottom of the first page, Steve, I apologize --
28 there's another heading down there, photographic
39
1 laboratory technician?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on the second page you say you're
4 familiar with all portions of black-and-white lab
5 work; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then we get some management
8 experience, and there's your repair work, and then now
9 we get your photographic consultant work, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Now, the first sentence says:
13 (Reading:)
14 Robert Groden has been a photographic
15 consultant for the United States House
16 of Representatives since 1975.
17 Q. That's just not true, is it, sir?
18 A. It certainly is true.
19 Q. You just told us that you worked for the
20 House Select Committee in the late '70s and that's the
21 only committee you've been a consultant for, right?
22 A. That's true.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And that sentence goes on to say:
25 (Reading:)
26
27 And was staff photographic consultant
28 with the initial capital letters to the
40
1 House Select Committee on assassination
2 from 1975 to 1979.
3
4 Q. That's not true either, is it, sir?
5 A. It is true.
6 Q. Well, remember testifying here on
7 Wednesday? Was your memory that bad?
8 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. Remember testifying Wednesday, sir?
11 Do you remember testifying in this court
12 on Wednesday?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Two days ago?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember the dates you gave the
17 jury then?
18 A. From the middle of 1976 until the middle
19 of 1979.
20 Q. Right.
21 And this says 1975, right?
22 A. I was working with the people who were
23 creating the committee. I was helping raise support
24 for it.
25 Q. Oh, okay.
26 But you weren't, in fact, called a
27 consultant in 1975, were you?
28 A. No.
41
1 Q. Okay.
2 You then say that you authored the
3 dissenting opinion report for the Committee.
4 That's also not true, is it, sir?
5 A. It is true.
6 Q. Well, in fact what you wrote was
7 something called "comments" on the panel's report,
8 right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 And the Committee printed a page before
12 your little comments saying that they disagreed with
13 you, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And this was a panel of photographic
16 experts that you were a consultant to, right?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. You disagreed with the panel of
19 photographic experts, right?
20 A. In many issues, yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 And they did not adopt your conclusions
23 at all.
24 In fact, they rejected them, right?
25 A. They adopted some, they rejected some.
26 Q. This was not a dissenting report for the
27 Committee, this was just your little add-on that they
28 agreed to publish for you, right?
42
1 A. No, they asked me to publish my opinions.
2 Q. No.
3 You asked them if you could publish -- if
4 they would publish it, right?
5 A. I don't believe so.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Let's take a look.
8 I'm going to show you portions of the
9 appendix to the hearings, it's Volume 6 from the
10 Senate -- from the House Select Committee on
11 Assassinations, page 295.
12 MR. LEONARD: May I look, so I see that before
13 it's published in any way.
14 MR. GELBLUM: Yeah.
15
16 (Witness reviews document.)
17
18 Q. Is this your -- sorry, wrong side of the
19 pen.
20 Is this the letter you wrote to the
21 chairman of the Committee in January 3, 1979?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you asked them to publish it, right?
24 A. I was told by Jane Downey (phonetic) that
25 this is the form it should take.
26 Q. Somebody told you to ask them?
27 A. Yes, um-hum.
28 Q. Do you agree now that you did ask them?
43
1 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 Q. Well, here's the preface that the
4 Committee wrote.
5 THE COURT: Why don't you show it to
6 Mr. Leonard if you're going to use it.
7 MR. GELBLUM: Sure.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Gelblum.
9
10 (Mr. Gelblum shows document to
11 Mr. Leonard.)
12
13 MR. GELBLUM: I think I may have an extra copy.
14
15 MR. LEONARD: Is this mine?
16 MR. GELBLUM: No.
17 MR. LEONARD: I'd love to keep it.
18 Okay, thanks.
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) See the last sentence
20 of the first paragraph. It says:
21 (Reading:)
22
23 As a consultant to the Committee, Groden
24 was given access to the work of the
25 photographic evidence panel and asked
26 that the Committee publish his comments
27 on the panel's report.
28
44
1 Q. Is that a true statement?
2 A. Yes, it's true.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. But only in the respect that's what I was
5 told I had -- the way I had to represent the question,
6 the issue.
7 MR. LEONARD: You going to read the rest of it
8 now or do I have to?
9 MR. GELBLUM: I'll read the rest of it later or
10 more of it later.
11 MR. BAKER: Can we have that identified by
12 number.
13 THE CLERK: Next in order.
14 2285.
15
16 (The instrument herein described
17 as a Curriculum Vitae of Robert
18 Groden was marked for
19 identification as Plaintiffs'
20 Exhibit No. 2285.)
21
22 THE COURT: What?
23 THE CLERK: 2285.
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, you know a man
25 named Robert Blakey?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Who's that?
28 A. G. Robert Blakey is the -- or was the
45
1 director of the House Select Committee on
2 Assassinations.
3 Q. Say it again?
4 A. He was the director and chief counsel, as
5 I recall, of the House Select Committee on
6 Assassinations.
7 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I'm going to object
8 to this line of questioning.
9 May we approach briefly?
10 THE COURT: You may.
11
12 (The following proceedings were
13 held at the bench with the
14 reporter:)
15
16 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object to this. I
17 thought we were talking about the photographs in this
18 case. If he wants to go back and relitigate the
19 assassination, the conspiracy theory, we're willing to
20 do that.
21 I mean he's prepared to justify his
22 opinions in this case. I didn't ask him any of his
23 opinions in that case. I simply asked him if he was a
24 photographic consultant. He was.
25 The rest of that report says he made an
26 important contribution to the Committee.
27 MR. GELBLUM: That's one line.
28 MR. LEONARD: Yeah, it's an important line.
46
1 MR. GELBLUM: The rest of it says that they
2 disagree with him, he made lots of mistakes.
3 THE COURT: How much longer are you going to go
4 through this?
5 MR. GELBLUM: Not much further.
6 MR. LEONARD: I want an offer of proof.
7 MR. GELBLUM: You don't get it.
8 Your Honor, he's relying on this
9 Committee as his sole claim to fame for any
10 credibility of any kind of expertise.
11 MR. LEONARD: No, that's not true.
12 THE COURT: I'm not prepared to litigate the
13 contents of that report.
14 MR. GELBLUM: I'm not going to ask my more
15 questions about his report.
16 MR. LEONARD: That's an absolute misstatement.
17 His primary expertise is the fact that he
18 did this --
19 THE COURT: Mr. Leonard, you submitted that as
20 part of his qualifications. He has a right to
21 cross-examine.
22
23 (The following proceedings were
24 held in open court in the presence
25 of the jury.)
26
27 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Blakey was the
28 director of the Committee?
47
1 A. As I recall, the director and chief
2 counsel.
3 Q. Okay. You've heard him say that.
4 MR. LEONARD: Objection, hearsay, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You think Mr. Blakey
7 would vouch for your --
8 MR. LEONARD: Objection, irrelevant, hearsay.
9 THE COURT: Sustained. Argumentative.
10 MR. LEONARD: Argumentative. Ask the jury be
11 admonished.
12 THE COURT: Jury is admonished that anything
13 Mr. Blakey has said has not been received into
14 evidence. You're to disregard any reference thereto.
15 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, your resume goes
16 on to say that he was called upon to testify about the
17 photographic evidence in the assassination of
18 President John F. Kennedy before four governmental
19 investigative bodies; the Rockefeller Commission --
20 that's the one you couldn't recognize in your
21 testimony, right?
22 MR. LEONARD: Objection. That's argumentative.
23 MR. GELBLUM: I showed him the transcript.
24 MR. LEONARD: That assumes the transcript is
25 authentic.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) When you did the
28 Rockefeller Commission, you were you showed the
48
1 Zapruder film?
2 A. Yes, among other things.
3 Q. You didn't testify about altered
4 photographs, did you?
5 A. I said it was 21 years ago. I don't
6 recall exactly what I testified to, but I know the
7 Zapruder film was one of the issues.
8 Q. Altered photographs was not one of the
9 issues, right?
10 A. I can't say that. I don't know that.
11 Q. You don't remember whether it was?
12 A. Over 20 years ago, no, I don't --
13 Q. The Senate Intelligence Committee, showed
14 them the Zapruder film?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What did you do with them?
17 A. Spoke about various issues relating to
18 the assassination questions that were raised by the
19 photographic evidence and the Zapruder film.
20 Q. What year was that?
21 A. As I recall, that was 19 -- probably --
22 probably around 1977 or so.
23 Q. You didn't testify about altered
24 photographs there, did you?
25 A. I don't recall.
26 Q. Okay.
27 And then we have the House Select
28 Committee, which we've talked about.
49
1 Then you say:
2 (Reading:)
3 I've been called upon to testify before
4 the Assassination Record Review Board.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is the Assassination Record Review
7 Board?
8 A. The Assassination Record Review Board
9 does -- an investigation is going on now to try to
10 determine what issues relating to the assassination,
11 photographic and documentary, should be released to
12 the public.
13 Q. You didn't testify, you didn't give
14 expert testimony before them about altered
15 photographs, did you?
16 A. I believe I did.
17 Q. Well, in fact, sir, you were deposed
18 twice by the Assassination Records Review Board
19 relating to your theft of photos from the government
20 when you worked in the House Select Committee,
21 correct?
22 MR. LEONARD: Objection. That -- There's a
23 lack of foundation. It's argumentative.
24 I'd asked to approach at this point.
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Isn't that correct?
26 THE COURT: Overruled.
27 You can answer yes or no.
28 A. No, that is not. If you're asking if I
50
1 stole photographs from the government, the answer is
2 absolutely no.
3 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) I'm asking you the
4 subject of what you put on your resume is your
5 testimony before the Assassination Records Review
6 Board, it was not expert testimony, it was depositions
7 that you were required to submit to about the subject
8 of your theft of government documents, correct?
9 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, first of all, there's
10 no inconsistency. It's also argumentative. It's --
11 MR. GELBLUM: This is a speaking objection.
12 MR. LEONARD: It's a lack of foundation.
13 I'd ask to approach.
14 This is character assassination. It has
15 nothing to do with the photographs in this case.
16 THE COURT: Bring your proof.
17 MR. PETROCELLI: I'd ask --
18 MR. LEONARD: Ask some questions about the
19 photographs.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Leonard.
21 MR. GELBLUM: I'd ask the jury be admonished
22 and Mr. Leonard be admonished in front of the jury
23 about these improper remarks.
24 THE COURT: I think I'd admonish both of you to
25 stop your outbursts.
26 (The following proceedings were
27 held at the bench with the
28 reporter:)
51
1
2 MR. BAKER: I'll stand in between them.
3 THE COURT: Good idea.
4 Where's the proof?
5 MR. GELBLUM: I spoke with the man who took the
6 deposition. I don't have the documents. I don't have
7 depositions. I have to subpoena him. I have a
8 subpoena I can serve --
9 THE COURT: Excuse me.
10 MR. GELBLUM: I don't have the depositions,
11 Your Honor. I spoke with the man who took the
12 depositions for the Assassination Records Review Board
13 and he told me that this is what happened.
14 MR. LEONARD: What happened?
15 MR. GELBLUM: The man was deposed twice. He
16 knows full well it's absolutely true, and he took -- a
17 man named Jeremy Gunn (phonetic) from the
18 Assassination Review Board took his deposition twice
19 in June of this year and a little later.
20 THE COURT: Why don't you have the depositions?
21
22 MR. GELBLUM: Because I just found out about it
23 last week, Your Honor. I just found this man.
24 THE COURT: I'm not going to permit you to
25 admit these inflammatory accusations without some
26 proof.
27 MR. LEONARD: He said --
28 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor --
52
1 MR. PETROCELLI: He admits he was in a
2 deposition.
3 THE COURT: Excuse me. You just got somebody
4 that I don't know anything about telling you --
5 MR. GELBLUM: I'll give you his phone number.
6 THE COURT: I don't want his phone number.
7 MR. GELBLUM: He is the man who took the
8 deposition.
9 THE COURT: I'm not letting you shoot from the
10 hip.
11 MR. GELBLUM: I'm not shooting from the hip.
12 THE COURT: Don't do it.
13 MR. GELBLUM: I have documents.
14 THE COURT: Don't do it.
15 MR. LEONARD: I move for mistrial.
16 MR. GELBLUM: Oh --
17 MR. LEONARD: Yes. He put before the jury --
18 he said you were deposed because you did steal, that's
19 outrageous. They cleared him.
20 MR. PETROCELLI: Shhh.
21 MR. LEONARD: I move for a mistrial.
22 THE COURT: You're request for a mistrial is
23 denied.
24 MR. GELBLUM: Can I ask him if he was deposed?
25 THE COURT: No. I don't like the way you asked
26 him based on what you know.
27 MR. LEONARD: Ask the jury be admonished there
28 is no evidence that he stole anything.
53
1 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, what better
2 evidence --
3 THE COURT: You don't have any evidence at this
4 point.
5 MR. GELBLUM: The person who took the
6 deposition --
7 THE COURT: Where is he?
8 MR. GELBLUM: He's in Washington, D.C.
9 THE COURT: Exactly.
10 MR. GELBLUM: If you want --
11 THE COURT: Exactly.
12 MR. GELBLUM: I'll bring him in. We'll
13 subpoena the records and bring him in.
14 THE COURT: You bring him in.
15 But you're not going to do it now.
16 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, he's on the stand, I
17 have to ask him the question.
18 It's absolutely true, Your Honor. It is
19 absolutely true.
20 MR. LEONARD: What's true?
21 THE COURT: You're not going to ask it in that
22 fashion.
23 MR. GELBLUM: Let me ask it --
24 THE COURT: You've already done your damage.
25 MR. GELBLUM: Let me ask him whether he's been
26 deposed.
27 THE COURT: You've already done the damage.
28 And you can ask him whether he's been
54
1 deposed, period.
2 MR. GELBLUM: On the subject --
3 MR. PETROCELLI: Can we ask him about the
4 subject matter?
5 THE COURT: No.
6 MR. LEONARD: He already did that and
7 misrepresented to the jury --
8 MR. GELBLUM: I did not.
9 MR. LEONARD: You did.
10 MR. GELBLUM: I did not. Knock it off.
11 THE COURT: I'm not going to permit this.
12 MR. LEONARD: Ask the --
13 MR. GELBLUM: I ask him if he's been deposed --
14 THE COURT: You already asked him --
15 MR. GELBLUM: I thought you could ask him that,
16 but he didn't answer that question. If you go back in
17 the record, he doesn't answer.
18 THE COURT: You can ask him if he's been
19 deposed, period.
20 MR. GELBLUM: Okay, fine.
21 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I ask that the jury
22 be -- he made a representation in his question --
23 THE COURT: I'm not going to -- I have already
24 admonished them.
25 MR. LEONARD: Thank you.
26 MR. LEONARD: I ask that they be admonished.
27 THE COURT: You've already asked me. I said I
28 would. Why do you have to ask me again?
55
1
2 (The following proceedings were
3 heal in open court in the presence
4 of the jury.)
5
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 Ladies and gentlemen, the Court is
8 instructing you to disregard Mr. Gelblum's question to
9 the effect that the question accuses this witness of
10 having stole anything.
11 This is a case in which the law requires
12 that evidence be produced to show a fact.
13 The plaintiff or any counsel, even
14 defense counsel, cannot establish evidence by
15 innuendo.
16 That was a question that had innuendo in
17 it. There is no evidence whatsoever before you to
18 show that this witness stole anything at any time.
19 Everybody understand that?
20 JURORS: Yes.
21 MR. LEONARD: Thank you.
22 THE COURT: Now, let's cut out that type of
23 question.
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, isn't it
25 true you've been deposed by the Assassination Report
26 Review Board twice this year?
27 A. That is correct.
28 Q. On the next page of your resume you say
56
1 Mr. Groden has been called to present photographic
2 evidence as an expert consultant in the Manning case,
3 international bombing incidents, and several other
4 court cases.
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In fact, you never testified in court as
8 an expert on photographic evidence before this case,
9 correct?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. But you have appeared on -- what does it
12 say, 2,000 television and radio shows?
13 A. Approximately, yes.
14 Q. That includes nine times on "Inside
15 Edition"?
16 You want to look at page three of your
17 profile?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "Oprah Winfrey" and "Geraldo," right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, turn to the last page of the
22 profile, please. It talks about your videotape you
23 produced?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I think you told us before that the
26 "Case for Conspiracy" you re-edited and are selling a
27 second version; is that right?
28 A. That's correct.
57
1 Q. And that's because somebody asked you to
2 take some footage out?
3 MR. LEONARD: Objection, hearsay, irrelevant.
4 Ask to approach.
5
6 (The Court reviewed real-time
7 computer screen.)
8
9 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.
10 Your request to approach is denied.
11 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Okay.
12 Are you using footage in that videotape
13 from somebody named Haskel (phonetic)?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And somebody else named Tower (phonetic)?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you have their authorization to use
18 that?
19 MR. LEONARD: Objection, irrelevant.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 A. I had permission from the agent, for
22 Steve Haskel prior to it's use. And I had not had
23 permission from Tina Tower. I tried to get it but
24 could not locate her, she had changed her name and
25 moved to a different town.
26 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) So you used the footage
27 anyway?
28 A. Yes. I had done a lot of work for her
58
1 that I had not been paid for and I didn't think that
2 she would mind.
3 Q. And is she suing you now because of that?
4 MR. LEONARD: Objection, irrelevant.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 A. Yes, she has filed suit.
7 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, turning to the
8 photograph in this case --
9 THE COURT: Okay. We'll take a 10-minute
10 recess, ladies and gentlemen.
11
12 (Recess.)
13
14 (Jurors resume their respective
15 seats.)
16
17 THE COURT: You may examine.
18 MR. GELBLUM: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) On Wednesday, sir,
20 you and Mr. Leonard had an exchange about a couple
21 times you've had deals with "National Enquirer."
22 You recall that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The one we talked about this morning
25 already, 14 years ago with the voodoo ritual?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. The second is with the photo at issue in
28 this case?
59
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And you were contacted by the "National
3 Enquirer" and asked to look at this photograph; is
4 that right?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And you agreed to do it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then they didn't call you back?
9 A. No. They called me back once after that
10 to try to set up an appointment, and they never called
11 me back after that.
12 Q. They didn't hire you to do it, right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Now, were you trying to suggest, sir,
15 with that testimony that you -- the "Enquirer" didn't
16 ask you to render an opinion about this photograph
17 because you would have said that it was not authentic?
18 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 A. What I told the gentleman who contacted
21 me was that I would tell them whatever it was that I
22 found no matter which way it went.
23 I never heard from them again.
24 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Okay.
25 You hadn't seen the photo at that point?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Are you telling -- trying to suggest,
28 sir, that the reason -- I'm sorry -- that one reason
60
1 that you think this photo may not be genuine is
2 because it was first published in the "Enquirer"?
3 A. I never said that.
4 Q. You're not trying to suggest that, are
5 you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Because you yourself have sold photos to
8 tabloids, correct?
9 A. That's a misrepresentation.
10 Q. Okay.
11 In December 1991, sir, didn't you sell
12 autopsy photographs of John F. Kennedy to the "Globe"
13 tabloid?
14 A. I did not.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Did you enter into a contract with the
17 "Globe" to sell autopsy photos of John F. Kennedy for
18 $50,000, sir?
19 A. I did not.
20 Q. Do you recognize what I'm putting in
21 front of you now?
22 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object, not
23 relevant.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25
26 (Witness is handed magazine.)
27
28 A. Yes, I recognize it.
61
1 Q. What is it?
2 A. It a copy of the "Globe" dated
3 December 31, 1991.
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And the cover story is
5 about autopsy photos of John F. Kennedy, correct?
6 A. That is correct.
7 MR. GELBLUM: I'd like to mark next in order, a
8 contract between you and the "Globe" for the sale of
9 those photographs.
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Is that what that is,
11 sir?
12
13 (Witness reviews document.)
14
15 A. Would you repeat the question.
16 Q. Yes, sir.
17 MR. GELBLUM: What's the number on that?
18 THE CLERK: 2286.
19
20 (The instrument herein described
21 as a copy of appendix to hearings
22 was marked for identification as
23 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2286.)
24
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Exhibit 2286, that's a
26 contract between you and the "Globe" bearing your
27 signature on page 2, for $50,000 to sell autopsy
28 photographs of John F. Kennedy to the "Globe," isn't
62
1 it, sir?
2 A. No, it is not.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Is your name on it?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Okay.
7 And you're agreeing to sell some
8 photographs for $50,000?
9 A. No, I'm not.
10 Q. What are you agreeing to do, sir?
11 A. To give them exclusive rights to a story
12 about autopsy photographs being faked and to consult
13 with them for the writing of such a story.
14 Q. Okay.
15 And you gave them the photographs to use
16 in the story?
17 A. I allowed them to use the photographs in
18 the story.
19 Q. You were paid $50,000 for that, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you didn't sell them the photos, you
22 just sold them the right to publish the photos?
23 A. I sold them the rights to the story and
24 allowed them to use the photographs in the story to
25 prove a point.
26 Q. Those are some of the photos you obtained
27 from the House Select Committee when you were there?
28 A. That's correct.
63
1 Q. Those are autopsy photos of John F.
2 Kennedy, right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. So you certainly don't have any problem
5 with Harry Scull selling the photograph of Mr. Simpson
6 to the "Enquirer," do you?
7 MR. LEONARD: Objection argumentative.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, you read
10 Mr. Scull's deposition, didn't you?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And you saw he testified that he had the
13 original negative of the photograph of Mr. Simpson
14 wearing the Bruno Magli shoes at the Buffalo Bills
15 game, right?
16 A. That's what he testified to, yes.
17 Q. Are you're saying he's lying, right.
18 MR. LEONARD: Objection, vague, argumentative.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 Q. You're saying he's lying when he says he
21 has the original negative because you think it's a
22 copy negative, right?
23 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
24 THE COURT: Why don't you ask a question
25 instead of a -- why don't you ask a question as a
26 question instead of an accusation.
27 MR. GELBLUM: I'm entitled to ask leading
28 questions.
64
1 THE COURT: Now, you may ask a question so it
2 sounds like a question.
3 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, isn't it
4 true that you're contending that Mr. Scull was lying
5 at his deposition when he said he had the original
6 negative?
7 MR. LEONARD: Same objection.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 MR. LEONARD: Vague. Had the negative when?
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 A. I don't know whether he has the original
12 negative or not. What I testified to in my deposition
13 is what was shown to me, and purports to be the
14 original negative, is not.
15 Q. Well, and that's what was shown to you by
16 Mr. Scull's attorney, right, Michael O'Connor?
17 A. In Buffalo?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As the purported original negative,
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So if it's another negative and Mr. Scull
24 says he still has the original negative, then your
25 position is he's lying about that, right?
26 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative, asked
27 and answered.
28 THE COURT: That's argumentative. Sustained.
65
1 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You also read the
2 deposition of Gerry Richards (phonetic), didn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object, at this
5 point. Ask to approach.
6 THE COURT: Are we going to spend our time up
7 here?
8 MR. LEONARD: No, Your Honor, but --
9 THE COURT: Okay, approach.
10 MR. LEONARD: Thank you. Very briefly.
11
12 (The following proceedings were
13 held at the bench with the
14 reporter.)
15
16 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, Gerald Richards is
17 the ex -- photographic expert that the plaintiffs
18 retained and did not call in their case.
19 MR. GELBLUM: So what?
20 MR. LEONARD: I'm objecting to any publishing
21 of his opinion through this expert. This expert did
22 not rely on his opinion in any way. I think that's
23 improper hearsay.
24 MR. BAKER: This is their second attempt to get
25 this in.
26 MR. LEONARD: They tried to do this through
27 Bodziak.
28 THE COURT: Was his deposition taken?
66
1 MR. LEONARD: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Did their witness take this -- read
3 this deposition?
4 MR. LEONARD: Yes. But he's not relying on his
5 opinion. I think it's improper.
6 THE COURT: Okay. I'll sustain the objection.
7 Lay foundation that he relied on it. If
8 not, then you can't use it.
9 MR. GELBLUM: He reviewed it.
10 THE COURT: I don't care whether he reviewed it
11 or not. If he didn't rely on it, you can't use it.
12 You got it?
13 MR. GELBLUM: He also opined about
14 Mr. Richards' credentials. Can I ask him about his
15 credentials?
16 THE COURT: If you don't lay foundation that he
17 relied on it, you can't use it. Period. Okay.
18 Let's get going. Get to the subject
19 matter.
20
21 (The following proceedings were
22 held in open court in the presence
23 of the jury.)
24
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You read Mr. Richard's
26 deposition?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you rely on that in any way in forming
67
1 your opinion in this case?
2 MR. LEONARD: Objection, vague what portions.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 A. I'm not sure that I did. I noted what he
5 said.
6 Q. Did you rely on any portion of it in
7 forming your opinions in this case?
8 MR. LEONARD: Objection, vague.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 A. I don't specifically remember whether I
11 did or I didn't.
12 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Well, you recall that
13 he said that?
14 MR. LEONARD: Objection, calls for hearsay.
15 THE COURT: The witness says he may have, he
16 may not have.
17 You may inquire.
18 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Do you recall
19 Mr. Richards opined that he made no -- found no
20 indication of forgery whatsoever in this photograph?
21 A. I read his -- that he found no
22 indication.
23 Q. Do you recall that he opined that he did
24 not find any indication of forgery of this photograph?
25 A. I do not specifically recall that he said
26 that.
27 Q. Okay.
28 He didn't say it was a fake, did he?
68
1 A. I don't believe he did, no.
2 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I move to strike. No
3 evidence he relied on that.
4 MR. PETROCELLI: Said he may have.
5 THE COURT: He said he may have, may not have.
6 It's vague.
7 MR. LEONARD: Now he's refreshed his
8 recollection to a specific portion. I ask that it be
9 stricken.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 MR. LEONARD: Without a foundation being laid.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, you recall
14 from reading the deposition of Mr. Richards an expert
15 witness being retained by the plaintiffs in the case?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You found, as you said, his deposition,
18 that he had incredible credentials?
19 MR. LEONARD: Objection.
20 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.
21 MR. LEONARD: Move to strike.
22 THE COURT: Stricken.
23 MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor --
24 THE COURT: You already tested me.
25 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Are you also -- in
26 preparation for this -- in connection with this
27 photograph, you read the article in the "Enquirer"
28 where this photograph is printed, didn't you?
69
1 A. No, I have not.
2 Q. Did you look at it?
3 A. I glanced at it for a moment in a
4 supermarket, while standing in the checkout line.
5 Q. And you recall that in the article --
6 MR. LEONARD: Objection, calls for -- this is
7 going to call for hearsay.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. LEONARD: I'm trying to -- okay.
10 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Did you rely on
11 anything in the article in forming your opinion that
12 you've given in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You also recall Mr. Scull's deposition
15 that he said he -- he testified at his deposition that
16 about a week after he took the picture, he sent a
17 print of this very photograph that we're talking about
18 to Pro Football Weekly?
19 A. I don't remember the specific timing. I
20 remember that he said he sent a copy of it. But I
21 don't recall that --
22 Q. Do you recall he said he sent it shortly
23 after he took it?
24 A. He said that he took it --
25 MR. LEONARD: Objection, irrelevant.
26 THE COURT: Overruled.
27 A. I remember that he said he sent it, but I
28 don't -- I don't recall exactly when he said he did
70
1 it.
2 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Just want to show you
3 Mr. Scull's deposition --
4 MR. LEONARD: I have an objection to that.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 THE COURT: Witness has indicated he relied on
7 portions of Scull's deposition.
8 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I withdraw the
9 objection.
10 THE COURT: As there is no opinion?
11 MR. LEONARD: I assumed he was going to publish
12 it. I withdraw the objection.
13 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) On page 84 of
14 Mr. Scull's deposition, the question from Mr. Baker:
15 Why is it that you sent an image of Mr. Simpson to Pro
16 Football Weekly?
17 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, he's publishing to
18 the jury.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. GELBLUM: Would you read that to yourself.
21 MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I move to strike what
22 he just said.
23 MR. GELBLUM: The witness said he didn't
24 recall.
25 THE COURT: Well, let him read it.
26 MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, for the record,
27 this entire deposition was played to the jury in our
28 case in chief, this entire deposition, on videotape.
71
1 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Does that refresh your
2 recollection, sir, that Mr. Scull testified that he
3 sent the picture to Pro Football Weekly about a week
4 after he took the picture?
5 A. That appears to be what he said.
6 Q. That was about nine months before the
7 murders here?
8 A. I have no idea.
9 Q. Well, if the murders were in June of '94,
10 the picture was taken September 1993, about nine
11 months, right.
12 MR. LEONARD: Objection.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 A. Would be about nine months, yes.
15 Q. Obviously long before any issue arose in
16 this case -- or in the criminal case, rather, about
17 the shoes that were worn by the killer, right?
18 MR. LEONARD: Objection, argumentative.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. GELBLUM: Now, Steve, could you put the
21 contact sheet up. 1832.
22
23 (Exhibit 1832 displayed.)
24
25 THE CLERK: 1832.
26 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, there's two
27 photographs of Mr. Simpson on this roll, right? And
28 then one on the other roll; is that right?
72
1 A. Technically no, technically it appears
2 that there are three in this one.
3 Q. There are three photographs of
4 Mr. Simpson?
5 A. Technically, the back of somebody, second
6 from the top, second from the left, that may be the
7 back of Mr. Simpson, I don't know.
8 Q. There's two that you can recognize
9 Mr. Simpson, right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And one on the other roll?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. I want to be clear before we get deeply
14 into that photograph.
15 Your opinion is that just the one
16 photograph of Mr. Simpson walking, where you can see
17 his shoes, that's the only one that you say is fake?
18 THE COURT: Just a minute.
19 Did you guys screw this thing up.
20
21 (Referring to focusing Elmo
22 screen.)
23
24 MR. P. BAKER: I didn't touch it.
25 MR. FOSTER: The --
26 MR. PETROCELLI: The witness was working with
27 it and can't get it back to its original shape, Your
28 Honor.
73
1 MR. LEONARD: He can correct it in a second.
2 You want to have him come down?
3 THE COURT: It was working perfectly before
4 yesterday.
5 MR. LEONARD: Because there was a manual
6 override. I can actually adjust the focus.
7 MR. PETROCELLI: Can you fix it the way it was?
8 MR. LEONARD: Can you come down and fix it?
9 THE WITNESS: Sure.
10 MR. LEONARD: With the Court's permission.
11
12 (Witness adjusts Elmo.)
13
14 THE COURT: That used to be a thousand percent
15 better than that.
16 THE WITNESS: If they had this top light it
17 would possibly be better. They have this bottom
18 light.
19
20 (Witness adjusts Elmo.)
21
22 THE WITNESS: There you go.
23 MR. GELBLUM: You have the slides, Mr. Groden,
24 from yesterday -- from Wednesday?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
26 MR. GELBLUM: May I?
27
28 (Witness produces slides from
74
1 brief case and hands them to
2 Mr. Gelblum.)
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) The question is, so
5 everybody's clear about what you're saying, you're
6 opining only that the one photo of Mr. Simpson
7 walking, where you can see his shoes, that's the
8 one -- only one that's fake, right?
9 A. That's the only one that I've determined
10 is fake.
11 Q. Right.
12 Well, part of your determination is that
13 there's things there you don't see on any other of the
14 photographs, right?
15 A. That's part of it, yes.
16 Q. Now, one of the things you mentioned was
17 something about a blue line on the bottom of the
18 photograph, right?
19 A. That's correct -- well, no, that's not
20 correct. It's outside the bottom of the photograph.
21 Q. Right between the image and the sprocket
22 holes, right?
23 A. Well, would you clarify that?
24 MR. GELBLUM: Well, let's put the slide up.
25 Steve, would you put this up.
26 THE COURT REPORTER: Does that have a number?
27 MR. P. BAKER: It's number 4 of 2282, I
28 believe.
75
1 THE CLERK: Yeah.
2
3 (Number 4 of Exhibit No. 2282 displayed.)
4
5 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You're saying the fact
6 there's a blue line in the blackness there or the --
7 or a cyan line is, and it's only on this photograph on
8 all the images on the contact sheet is evidence that
9 it's fake, right?
10 A. Well, may I -- maybe it's not my position
11 to do so. I'd like to clarify. You asked me about
12 the bottom of the photograph. This is the side.
13 Q. As you told us yesterday, it was the
14 bottom of the strip of negatives?
15 A. Oh, that's true, yes.
16 Q. You know the film goes in horizontally?
17 A. Yes, of course I know.
18 Q. Can you point where the blue line is?
19
20 (Witness indicates to Elmo TV
21 screen.)
22
23 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) You've got an
24 enlargement here. It might be a little easier to see.
25 This is an enlargement of that photograph.
26 MR. LEONARD: Can I see it before it's
27 published to the jury?
28
76
1 (Mr. Gelblum displays enlargement
2 to Mr. Leonard.)
3
4 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) It's this blue line
5 here that you're talking about?
6 A. Yes, it's the series of short blue lines
7 by the sprocket holes.
8 MR. GELBLUM: May I exhibit this to the jury,
9 Your Honor?
10 THE COURT: You may.
11 (Blow-up of number 4 of 2282
12 displayed by counsel.)
13
14 Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) And you're saying this
15 indicates -- this is one indication that this
16 photograph is a fake, because that's not on any of the
17 other pictures, right?
18 A. What I'm saying is that we're seeing an
19 anomaly there that I cannot detect on any of the other
20 negatives in the contact sheet.
21 THE COURT: Is that particular board you held
22 up, was that marked as something or other?
23 MR. FOSTER: Enlarged of 2071.
24 MR. GELBLUM: Enlarged version of 2071. Do you
25 want to call it a new number or 2071X?
26 THE COURT: You want to use it?
27 MR. GELBLUM: Next in order.