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REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT NOVEMBER 19, 1996 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHARON RUFO, ET AL., N/A, PLAINTIFFS, VS. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ET AL., DEFENDANTS. SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1996 8:55 A.M. DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury.) THE COURT: Morning. JURORS: Morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may proceed. MR. KELLY: Your Honor, at this time we are going to play the tape. THE COURT: Okay. THE COURT REPORTER: Does this have an exhibit number? MR. KELLY: I believe it is 2195. MR. FOSTER: 757. (Exhibit 757 an audio tape of 30 minutes' duration was played in open court, commencing at 8:56 a.m.) ROBERT LERNER, the witness on the stand at the time of adjournment on Monday, November 18, 1996, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: THE CLERK: You are still under oath. Would you state are name again for the record. THE WITNESS: It's Robert Lerner. THE CLERK: Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. KELLY: Q. Sergeant Lerner, on the tape, a high female voice stated, "I don't think you need us anymore. Good luck." Did you recognize that voice? A. Yes. Q. Who was that? A. That was officer Cheryl Kent. Q. That was another officer that responded to the scene? A. Yes. There were several officers. Q. Okay. "I also felt that if it happened one more time, that it would be the last time." Do you recall hearing a female voice saying that? A. Yes. Q. Were you able to identify that voice? A. Yes. Q. Who was that? A. That was Nicole Brown. Q. "He gets this animalistic look to him." MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. This is cumulative of what was already on the tape. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) "He gets this animalistic look to him." Did you hear that statement by a female voice? A. Yes. Q. Who was that voice? A. That was also Nicole Brown. Q. Okay. "And I get scared when he looks like that." Did you hear that statement by a female voice? A. Yes. Q. And can you identify that voice for us, please. A. Nicole Brown. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: I have no further questions. THE COURT: Cross. CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. BAKER: Do you want me to have your notes, Mr. Kelly? MR. KELLY: No. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. When you met with Mr. Kelly on Friday, were you on LAPD time? A. Yes. Q. And LAPD paid for you to go over the tapes and meet with Mr. Kelly to get ready for your testimony in this case, right? A. I was on call for court; I was under subpoena. Q. Maybe you didn't understand the question. The question was: LAPD paid for you to review the tape, meet with Mr. Kelly, and prepare yourself to testify in this civil litigation, true? A. Yes. Q. All right. Now, the tape that we just heard, that tape was done surreptitiously, was it not? A. Correct. Q. And by "surreptitiously," you didn't know that tape was being taped when it was being taped, correct? A. Correct. Q. You have no reason to believe that Mr. Simpson nor Nicole Brown Simpson knew that that was being taped, true? A. No reason to believe that at all. Q. And you have -- in terms of the LA Police Department procedure, that tape was evidence, was it not? MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative, speculative by this witness, Your Honor. He indicated it was surreptitious. He didn't even know the tape was being made. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Let me ask it this way. Sergeant Lally was your supervisor, correct? A. Correct. Q. He's the one that taped that surreptitiously, without anyone knowing it but him, as far as you are aware, true? A. Yes. Q. And he had an obligation under LAPD procedures to book that tape, but never did until after June 12, 1994; isn't that correct? MR. KELLY: Objection. Lack of foundation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, let me ask you this then, sir: Until you were to testify in the criminal trial -- and you testified on February 3, 1995 -- you didn't even know that tape existed; isn't that correct? A. I found out just a couple days before I went on to testify. Q. So you found out about that tape on February 1, 1995, thereabouts? A. Yeah. Q. And I take it that you were somewhat surprised that there was a tape that had been made and no one had ever informed you about it, since you were the principal person talking on that tape, correct? A. One of the principals. Yes, I was surprised. Q. And did you ever have a conversation with Sergeant Lally about his failure to book that tape as evidence after the incident of 10-25-93? MR. KELLY: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence; calls for speculation; argumentative. THE COURT: It's hearsay. Sustained. MR. KELLY: Hearsay. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, did you do anything as a result of your knowledge that the tape -- strike that. Did -- did you check to find out if that tape was ever booked as evidence before you heard it on February 1, 1995? A. No. Q. Had you taped that conversation, you would agree it would be required that that particular tape be booked as evidence? MR. KELLY: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, there was no contact and no threat of contact on October 25, 1993 that the -- about the incident on 3-25; is that correct? MR. KELLY: Objection. Calls for speculation. I believe this witness testified he wasn't aware; therefore -- THE COURT: I'll sustain it as far as to form. You may inquire whether the witness heard any. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Let me read from your trial transcript, sir. MR. KELLY: Objection. There's no foundation for reading from the transcript; it's not a part of the -- THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you testify on February 3, 1995, that there had been no physical contact and the incident never escalated to physical contact. MR. KELLY: Same objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And that was your state of mind then, and that's your state of mind now, correct, that that incident was, as Mr. Simpson's -- well, strike that. We heard on the tape, Mr. Simpson say there was never even close to contact. You heard that, did you not? A. I heard that. Q. That's what he told you, is it not, sir? A. Yes. Q. You also were told by Nicole Brown Simpson that he had not physically touched her since January 1, 1989; you heard that as well, did you not? MR. KELLY: Objection. Misstates the evidence, Your Honor. That's not what the statement was. THE COURT: You may rephrase it. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You were aware from your being at the 325 South Gretna Green on October 25, 1993, that Nicole Brown Simpson indicated that she hadn't been struck by Mr. Simpson since January 1, 1989, true? A. I don't recall her saying that. Q. Now, when you arrived, was Nicole Brown Simpson upstairs or downstairs in the home at 325 South Gretna Green? A. I'm not sure. We were out front. Q. When you first made contact with her, where was she? A. She met us out front. Q. All right. And so at that point in time, then, you -- Strike that. She had been upstairs, locked in her bedroom when she made the 911 call that you've also heard in preparation for your testimony, correct? A. I believe that she said that she went upstairs and locked herself in the bedroom and called the police. THE COURT: The record should be clear that I kept him outside the courtroom while the tape was played so he could not have heard it during this trial. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) But you heard the 911 tape in preparation -- before your coming here to court, right? A. I heard it on TV once. Q. Okay. And Nicole Brown, at the time that you heard her voice on the 911 tape, not the Lally surreptitious tape but the 911 tape, was upstairs, locked in her room, right? A. If you say so. Q. And when you -- MR. KELLY: Objection. That's argumentative. This witness has no knowledge. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. THE COURT: What's the objection? MR. KELLY: Lack of foundation. He just answered, "if you say so." He's indicated he has no knowledge as to the content of that tape, Your Honor. THE COURT: So what's the objection? MR. KELLY: That the last question -- answer -- there's no -- lack of foundation. It's also argumentative. He asked him a question the response is -- THE COURT: How could the answer be argumentative? MR. KELLY: "If you say so," Your Honor; that's his answer. THE COURT: Why don't you confer with your co-counsel, Mr. Petrocelli. That is not a proper objection. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, when you arrived, she had, obviously, if she was upstairs locked in her bedroom, had obviously come downstairs and come out front, correct? A. Correct. Q. And when you arrived, Mr. Simpson wasn't out front, was he? A. No. Q. He wasn't in the house, either, was he? A. Wasn't in the main house, no. Q. He was out in the back house with Mr. Kaelin, correct? A. Yes. Q. And after you went through the house, you went back into the back house and talked to O.J. Simpson in the back house, correct? A. Yes. Q. All right. You also did this shutter diplomacy and went to the front house and talked to Nicole, and went to the back house and talked to O.J., and felt the incident had resolved, and left, correct? A. Yes. Q. And -- by the way, did Sergeant -- well, strike that. Did you ever think there was need for backup at that particular location? You can answer yes or no. A. Yes. Q. Mr. Simpson had never made any threats to anyone during the entire time that you were there, correct? A. Verbal threat? You mean threats? Q. To do physical harm to anybody. A. No. Q. And in fact, you had five officers, half the watch there that night, and you had half the watch there because it was O.J. Simpson and a celebrity was involved; isn't that true? A. Partially. Q. And by the way, were you one of the 25 or so officers on June 13 that felt compelled to go to 875 South Bundy to the crime scene because a celebrity was involved? A. No. I wasn't even working West LA. Q. Now -- MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, I'm going to object to that. There's no foundation for that statement; it's not a proper question; it's argument to the jury; and it's improper. THE COURT: The jury is to disregard it. It's not relevant to this inquiry. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, when you arrived at the front of 325 South Gretna Green, could you look in through the living-room window? A. No. Q. Were the drapes closed? A. I don't recall. Q. You don't have any recollection of whether you could see if anybody was doing something in the living room from the front of the house? A. No. Q. Now, what would you define as, please -- You used the word "suspect" when you were being questioned by Mr. Kelly. Would you define that term for me? A. "Suspect," a person who is suspected of committing a crime. Q. And at the time -- that is, when you entered that house, you thought that Mr. Simpson was a suspect; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, in terms of your conversations with O.J. Simpson, Mr. Simpson was upset about the people -- and he informed you of this -- that his wife was running around with, correct? A. Correct. Q. And he was upset about the fact that she was, in fact, in his view and from his information, running -- having people in the house who were hookers, correct? MR. KELLY: Objection. Misstates the evidence and misstates the content of the tape, also. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: He was concerned. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And he was concerned that there was one person that he thought was bad for his kids and that his wife shouldn't associate with, and he didn't want him around the house; isn't that true? A. Yes. Q. And that was a gentleman with the first name of Keith, correct? A. Yes. Q. And he expressed that to you, that in fact, these people that were around the house had some sort of dealings with Heidi Fleiss, correct? A. That's -- MR. KELLY: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: That's what he indicated. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And he was upset about that, those people being around his house where his kids were; he informed you of that, didn't he? A. Yes. Q. And he also indicated to you, sir, that he never had intended, nor was he ever considering any physical violence to Nicole Brown Simpson that evening, correct? A. Correct. Q. And he also indicated to you that the door that she said was broken, before that, she told you he broke -- it was broken before he ever went to the house; isn't that correct? A. That's what he claimed. MR. BAKER: I don't have anything further. MR. KELLY: No redirect. THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. Okay. Take ten minutes, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case. Don't form or express any opinions. (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury.) MR. KELLY: Judge, before I call the next witness, I want to move in Exhibit Number 16, which was the October 25, 1993 tape, into evidence; Exhibit 757, which was the Sergeant Lally tape we just listened to; and Exhibit 2195, which was the photograph of the front of 325 Gretna Green Way. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I object to the Lally tape on the grounds there's no foundation, no chain of custody. It is hearsay. It is not a business records exception. THE COURT: Overruled. Received. (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 16 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 757 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2195 was received in evidence.) MICHAEL STEVENS, called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiffs, was duly sworn and testified as follows: THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Sir, if you would, please state and spell your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Michael Stevens, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, S-T-E-V-E-N-S DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KELLY: Q. Morning, Mr. Stevens. A. Morning. Q. Are you currently employed? A. Yes. Q. By whom? A. Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office. Q. In what capacity are you employed by them? A. Senior investigator. Q. Okay. Were you employed by them in that same capacity on December 6, 1994? A. Yes, I was. Q. Did you have occasion to go to the Union Bank on San Vicente Boulevard during the course of your duties that day? A. Yes, I did. Q. And what was the purpose of going to that Union Bank at that time, on December 6, 1994? A. To execute a search warrant. Q. And was there some particular object that you were executing the search warrant on? A. Yes. Q. What was that? A. Safe deposit box under the name of Nicole Brown Simpson. Q. Okay. And did you determine whether there were any other key-holders to that particular safety deposit box? A. Yes, I did. Q. Were there any? A. No, there was not. Q. Okay. And did you determine that she was the signatory to a particular box number? A. Yes. Q. And do you recall what that box number was? A. 1313. Q. Okay. And can you tell me what exactly you did, Mr. Stevenson, [sic] in terms of executing that search warrant that day at that bank, on the box, under Nicole Brown Simpson? A. Myself and my partner, we notified the bank manager, in essence, presented her with the search warrant, and then had a locksmith come out -- a county locksmith, by the name of Robert Shapiro, and had those -- had the safe deposit box drilled open. Q. Were you present when the safety deposit box was drilled open? A. Yes, I was. Q. And was subsequently the box removed from the slot it was resting in? A. Yes. Q. Were you -- what was done with that box when it was removed from the -- A. Myself, my partner, and two representatives of the bank took it to a booth just outside the vault there, and -- Q. Were you present, Mr. Stevens when the box was physically opened? A. Yes. I opened it. Q. And did you remove any of the contents from that box? A. Yes, I did. Q. And did you do any sort of bookkeeping or administrative work based on the contents removed from that box? A. Yes, I did. Q. What was that? A. An inventory. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: If I could just show this -- this will be 2196. MR. BAKER: Let me see that before you put it on the Elmo, please. MR. KELLY: (Mr. Kelly hands document to Mr. Baker.) MR. BAKER: Thank you. (Mr. Baker reviews document.) (The instrument herein referred to as Inventory re: contents of safety deposit box belonging to Nicole Brown Simpson was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2196.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Do you recognize that two-page document in front of you, Mr. Stevens? A. Yes, I do. Q. What is that? A. It's an inventory prepared by plaintiff and myself. Q. That was the contents of the box that day? A. Yes. Q. And included in the contents of that box, there were some photographs, were there not? A. Yes, there were. MR. KELLY: Steve, could I see that photograph number 8, please. Oh, I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Do you recognize that photograph, Mr. Stevens? A. Yes, I do. Q. Where do you recognize it from? A. That was taken out of the safety deposit box by myself. THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me; does that have a number? MR. KELLY: 8. And number 9. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of Nicole Brown Simpson recovered from safety deposit box was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 8.) (The instrument herein referred to as Photo of Nicole Brown Simpson with her arm raise; recovered from safety deposit box was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 9.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Do you recognize that photograph, Mr. Stevens? A. Yes, I do. Q. I'm sorry; number 9. A. Yes. Q. Do you know where -- do you recognize that photograph from? A. I removed that, also, from out of the safe deposit box. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: Okay. And we're almost done. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Now, with regard to the various other items removed from there, also, I believe there was an envelope that indicated "only open in the presence of an attorney;" is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And were you present when that envelope was subsequently opened? A. Yes, I was. Q. Okay. And do you recall what the contents of that sealed envelope was when it was opened? A. That was Nicole Brown Simpson's will. MR. KELLY: I have no further questions, Your Honor. THE COURT: Cross. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. It had -- there was a newspaper clipping in there, was there not? A. Yes, there was. There were several. Q. About O.J. Simpson -- A. Yes. Q. -- buying some property in Laguna Beach and that sort of thing? A. Different articles. There were -- there was one regarding the incident in January, I believe. Q. And by the way, when did you go over your testimony with Mr. Kelly? A. Yesterday morning, or -- I'm sorry. Yesterday afternoon. Q. And you were on the payroll when that occurred? A. Yes, I was. Q. Okay. MR. BAKER: Nothing further. THE COURT: Your're excused. MR. KELLY: Your Honor, at this time I'd like to move Exhibits 8, 9, and 2196 into evidence. THE COURT: Received. MR. KELLY: Thank you. (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 9 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2196 was received in evidence.) MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, Plaintiffs call Brian Kaelin. BRIAN KAELIN, called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, was examined and testified as follows: THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Please be seated. And would you please state and spell your name for the record? THE WITNESS: Brian Kaelin K-A-E-L-I-N, B-R-I-A-N. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q. Morning, Mr. Kaelin. A. Morning. Q. You are also known by Kato? A. Yes. Q. Okay. In October of 1993, October 25 to be specific, you were living with -- you were living at the residence of Nicole Brown Simpson in a guest house? A. Yes. Q. And at that time, were you present during at least part of a verbal argument between Nicole and Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. And the police came? A. Yes. Q. Did there come a time when you had occasion to observe the back door that leads out from her house to the backyard? A. Yes. Q. And was that when the police were wrapping up their work and getting ready to leave? A. Correct. Q. What did you see? A. The door -- the French doors in the back of the Gretna Green house that was broken on top, and there was wood on the floor. Q. What did you do? A. They asked me to, the police, to hammer it shut, the door. So I picked up the wood; I hammered it and put extra nails in for safety. Q. There was actually wood on the floor. You picked it up and you fixed it? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, did -- was that door broken from before, by the way? MR. BAKER: Objection. Foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you know? A. It was at one time broken. I don't know if it was the same part, but it had a break to it. Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the damage that you saw was fresh damage on that day? MR. BAKER: Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. THE WITNESS: It was fresh damage. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me ask you the question again. MR. BAKER: Move to strike the answer. THE COURT: Stricken. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) The piece that you fixed? A. Yes. Q. Had you seen that piece before that day, on the ground? A. No. Q. Okay. And what did you do with that piece? A. I got on a chair and I hammered it back where it was broken from. Q. Okay. And did you do anything else to the door? A. Yeah. I think there was maybe another piece. I hammered that in there; then I put extra nails on top of the door. Q. Let me now move on. At the end of the year, you -- did you leave Nicole's guest house? A. Yes. Q. Where did you move? A. To Rockingham. Q. The home of Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. And where did you live at Mr. Simpson's house? A. I had a guest house in the back. MR. PETROCELLI: And let me put a board up, Your Honor. (Counsel places board on easel.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) I'd like to ask you some questions about the property, okay? First of all, you moved in when? A. I moved in about January 7. Q. And you were living there still, as of June 12, 1994? A. Correct. Q. Were you close friends with O.J. Simpson? A. No. Q. How would you describe your relationship with him? A. When he was around, I would say hi. Never went out with him socially, and pretty much had his life, I had my life. Q. Okay. Did you have access to his house? A. No. Q. The inside of the house? A. No. Q. Did you have access? A. No. Q. Did you have the alarm code? A. No. Q. Did you guys hang out together? A. No. Q. Did you go out on double dates? A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: This is 116, Your Honor, this board here. (Exhibit 116 displayed on easel.) MR. PETROCELLI: Everybody see? JURORS: (Nod affirmatively.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Kaelin, can you see from there? MR. PETROCELLI: May he step down, Your Honor? THE COURT: (Nods affirmatively.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Where did you live? A. Right here (indicating). Q. In that room. And for you to get to your room from the outside of the property, what did you do? A. I would go through this gate (indicating). Q. Yeah. A. Come in here, go back down the stairs to the room. Q. You had a key to your room? A. Yes. Q. Did that key work any other doors? A. No. Q. So you didn't go through the front of the house -- A. Uh-uh. Q. -- to get inside your room? A. No. Q. Okay. And this part is the main residence. Is that where Mr. Simpson lived? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did the -- on the weekend of June 11 and June 10 -- June 11 and June 12, excuse me -- did Mr. Simpson have a dog on the property? A. Yes. Q. And what was the name of that dog? A. Chachi. Q. Can you put up the picture of Chachi. (Exhibit 114 displayed). THE COURT REPORTER: Do you know how to spell that? THE WITNESS: C-H-A-C-H-I. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you get close up? This is Exhibit 114. (The instrument herein referred to as a Photograph of Mr. Simpson's dog, Chachi at front gate on Rockingham, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 114.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Is that Chachi? A. Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you give me a wider shot on that now, Steve, as wide as it will go. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What gate is that? A. That's the Ashford gate. Q. You say that's the gate you usually use to get inside the property? A. Correct. Q. Where did you usually park your car? A. I usually was on Ashford. That's one of my spots. That's my car right there. (Indicating.) Q. Can you point to it. (The witness complies.) MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect the witness is pointing to the area -- I guess that would be -- what direction is that? North, east? Help me out. East? MR. BAKER: It's south. He's pointing south from the Ashford gate, south. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm not too good with directions. To the left of the Ashford gate. MR. BAKER: Oh, left is east. I agree with that. I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) To the left of the Ashford gate, correct? A. Correct. Q. Where did Mr. Simpson usually park his Bronco, if you know? A. Usually on Ashford. Q. Can you point where on Ashford Mr. Simpson usually parked his Bronco? A. I think it would be a wider shot. It would be here or on this side of the street, sometimes there (indicating). Q. And the first place you pointed to was where the mailbox is? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And we're talking about the white Bronco? A. Correct. Q. And that's based on your observations, living there between January 1994 and June 1994, right. MR. BAKER: Leading, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. BAKER: Well -- Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What is the -- MR. BAKER: Wait. Wait. Time out. Could we get this witness directed when an objection is sustained, not to answer, please. THE COURT: If you would just not lead, it would solve everything, Counsel. MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Kaelin, when there's an objection, hold off for a second; let the judge rule, okay? THE WITNESS: (Nods affirmatively.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You gave some testimony about where Mr. Simpson usually parked his Bronco. What was that based on? A. Seeing it usually parked there. Q. And the time that you lived there was when? A. January, June. MR. PETROCELLI: Give me the picture of Kato. The other Kato. (Exhibit 28, Photograph of Nicole Brown Simpson's dog, Kato, was displayed on the TV screen.) (Laughter.) MR. PETROCELLI: This is Exhibit 28. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) By the way, do you recognize the animal? A. Yes. Q. What is the name of the animal? A. Kato. Q. Do you know who it was named after? A. Me. Q. Do you know why that is? A. The kids were thinking of names to call it and then they said "Kato." Q. And was Kato, the dog, on the Simpson property on June 11 and June 12? A. No. Q. So how many dogs were on the property during those two days? A. Chachi only. Q. Now, could you describe the physical condition of Chachi? A. I think Chachi had arthritis in the leg; it was always hobbling, kind of arthritic. MR. BAKER: I move to strike on the basis of no veterinary foundation. (Laughter.) THE COURT: Overruled. Lay opinion as to a dog's condition is common. (Laughter.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Based on your observations of Chachi, was he an old dog or younger dog? A. Older dog. Q. Did he move quickly, slowly? A. Slowly. Q. And did you ever make any observations about what Chachi would do if the Ashford gates or the Rockingham gates opened up? A. Chachi usually stayed in one spot on the grass. Q. Did you see Chachi run out of the gate, either gate, when the gates were open? A. No. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Simpson walk Chachi? A. No. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Simpson take Chachi outside the property? A. No. Q. You ever been inside the garage of Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. Okay. What did it look like? A. Cluttered. Q. With what? A. It had weights, a car, lot of boxes, I think televisions. MR. PETROCELLI: Give me 188, Steve. (Mr. Foster displays photograph on TV screen.) (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of inside of Mr. Simpson's garage was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 188.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) How many times were you in that garage? A. Maybe two, three, or four times. Q. I show you Exhibit 188. Does that appear to be the condition of the garage at the time you saw it? A. Yes. Q. Prior to June 12, 1994, did you know whether there was a door in that garage that led outside? A. No. Q. Had you ever used that door? A. No. Q. Had you ever seen anyone use that door? A. No. Q. Let's turn to the weekend of June 11 and June 12. On June 11, did you have occasion to spend any time with Mr. Simpson? A. Yes, I did. Q. When was that? A. It was in the afternoon, on June 11. Q. What were the two of you doing? A. Watching TV. Q. And did anything come up in the conversation that you recall now? A. Yes. There was a movie on, "The World According to Garp," and there was a part that was coming up in the film that he wanted me to see. And it was a -- You want me to go on? Q. Please. MR. BAKER: I'd like a question, Your Honor, instead of a narrative response. THE COURT: Ask a question. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Please relate the conversation between Mr. Simpson and you regarding the Garp movie. A. He wanted me to see this part that was coming up in the film with -- MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You may answer. A. And there's a part in the film where the wife was going to give oral sex in the car, and he wanted me to see that part. An he compared it to seeing oral sex -- Nicole giving oral sex at the Gretna Green house. Q. What did Mr. Simpson say, as best you can recall, when he pointed out the oral sex scene to you on television? A. That he was outside Gretna Green and saw Nicole doing it to a gentleman named Keith. Q. And did he tell you when he had seen this? A. I don't remember the date. Q. Did Mr. Simpson say anything to you that day about Nicole Brown Simpson, other than what you just said? A. There was talk of having a white picket fence -- a white picket fence and having the kids around; that he liked the sound of having children around. Q. Did he say anything else that you can recall? A. He was getting ready for a dinner, a black-tie dinner, and he was feeling like he didn't really want to go. Q. And did he indicate who was going? A. He -- MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this witness testifying as to what Mr. Simpson was allegedly feeling. He can certainly testify as to what he said, but I don't think he has any more psychological background than he does veterinary background. THE COURT: Sustained. You may inquire as to what he said. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What we're interested in is what Mr. Simpson said and did. A. He said he didn't feel like going to this dinner. Q. Did he say why? A. He just didn't want to go. I think he was just tired. MR. BAKER: I object to him saying what he thinks. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did he say he was tired? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Move to strike what he thinks. THE COURT: You may inquire whether those were his words. If those were his words, the objection is overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Were those his words? A. Yes. Q. Did he say to you who he was going to the dinner with? A. Yes, he did. Q. What did he say? A. That he was going to the dinner with Paula Barbieri. Q. And that was the extent of your conversation with him on that day? A. Pretty much, yes. Q. Did you see Mr. Simpson the next day -- A. Yes, I did. Q. -- Sunday, June 12? A. Yes. Q. When did you see him on that day for the first time? A. It was in the afternoon, approximately at 2 o'clock or ... Q. And where were you with Mr. Simpson at that time? A. In the kitchen nook area to the house. Q. And who was there? A. I -- just myself. Q. And him? A. Yes. Q. And did you have any conversation with him at that time? A. Yes, I did. Q. And can you recall what was said? A. Once he got in -- he longed for a white picket fence, to have the family. Q. Is that what Mr. Simpson said? A. That's what Mr. Simpson said. Q. Okay. What else did Mr. Simpson say? A. Well, he was on the phone at this time, to a Traci Adell, and was telling her that -- Q. Who is Traci Adell? A. Traci Adell was a friend of mine that he was talking to on the phone. Q. How did he get her number? A. Through -- he left a number for her by getting the number from me, and she called back. Q. So, someone that you introduced him to? A. On the phone, yes. Q. And after the Traci Adell conversation, did Mr. Simpson say anything else to you that afternoon? A. Yes. Q. What did he say? A. There was talk of the IRS, and he was mentioning how he was going to do something with the IRS, with changing Nicole's address, and somehow that would cause some sort of financial damage to her. Q. And is that what he said? A. Yes. Q. Did he say anything else to you about Nicole in that afternoon conversation, if you can recall? A. I don't think so. Q. Did he say anything to you in that conversation about Paula Barbieri? A. Yes. Q. What did he say? MR. BAKER: Relevancy, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did he say anything to you about a discussion with Paula Barbieri and the recital that Mr. Simpson was going to attend? MR. BAKER: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You may answer. A. Yeah. O.J. had said that he didn't want Paula to go to the recital. And he was mentioning that Paula probably wanted to get married and have kids, and he was fine, because he had enough kids now and he didn't want anymore kids. And he wasn't sure that she was the one for him to settle down with. Q. Did Mr. Simpson tell you why he did not want Paula to go to the recital? MR. BAKER: Objection. Relevancy. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Mr. Simpson had said that what he wanted to do was -- he thought it would be a family thing and he didn't want Paula to be there. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, did you go someplace when that conversation ended? A. Yes. Q. And what did you do? A. I played basketball. Q. And at some point in time, you got back in from basketball. Do you recall when that was? A. I think it was about 6:30 or 7:00, approximately. Q. You got back from basketball, what did you do when you returned from basketball? A. I went back into the nook area. He called me in. Q. You entered the property, right? A. Correct. Q. Just so we understand what you mean about the nook area, we're referring to 1126. You entered the Ashford gate? A. Yes. Q. And you're starting to walk there? A. I'm starting to walk right in front there. And I think he said "Kato." Q. And Mr. Simpson is where, right here? A. Should I go down there? Q. Sure. A. The nook area would be here (indicating). Q. Okay. You're pointing to this little area that juts out from the main residence, and he then called you into the nook area? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And when you went inside and spoke to him, was this before or after he had come back from the recital? A. This was after the recital. Q. And what, if anything, did Mr. Simpson say to you about the recital that he had just attended? A. O.J. had said that he was wondering what it would be like for these women to be wearing their outfits when they're grandmas, he had said. Q. Did he indicate which women he was referring to? A. Nicole. Q. What did he say about that? A. What is she going to do when she's a grandma? Q. Referring to? A. Her outfit. Q. What did -- describe the outfit. A. Miniskirt. Q. And what else did Mr. Simpson say to you about the recital, if anything? A. He said that Nicole was playing hardball with him because he wanted to see his daughter, Sydney, and she wasn't -- Q. I'm sorry? A. -- allowing him to. Q. Mr. Simpson indicated to you what in regard to Sydney and Nicole? A. He regarded that he wanted to see his daughter and Nicole was playing hardball, because she wouldn't let him see her after the recital. Q. And did he say anything else to you about the recital that you can remember? A. No. Q. By the way, what was Mr. Simpson wearing at the time of that conversation, at about 6:30, 7 o'clock? A. I thought it was a sharp-looking sweatsuit, dark, white zipper. Q. What do you mean by a sweatsuit? A. Like a jogging outfit. Q. When that conversation ended, what did you do? A. I'd asked if it was okay for me to take a jacuzzi. Q. What did he say? A. Yes. Q. And then what happened? A. I took a jacuzzi. Q. And after you finished your jacuzzi, what did you do? A. I finished the jacuzzi; I went back into my room, and then he came to my door and told me that I forgot to turn the jacuzzi jets off. Q. Okay. You're in your room now? A. I'm in my room. MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have Exhibit -- Steve -- yeah, give us 143, the inside of Mr. Kaelin's room. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of Mr. Kaelin's room at Rockingham was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 143.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, is that your room -- was that your room, I should say? A. Yes. Q. And this (indicating), is that a door there? A. Yes, it's a door. Q. And is that door -- Now I'm going to go to 116. Does that door point out into the yard here? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And this is a wall behind your bed? A. Yes. Q. And that's a wall that is along this south pathway where this air conditioner is located? A. Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have another shot of that room, Steve. (Mr. Foster complies.) THE REPORTER: Excuse me; what exhibit is that? MR. PETROCELLI: 194. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of Mr. Kaelin's room at Rockingham was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 194.) Q. That's another picture of your room? That's the bed you slept in? A. Um-hum. Yes. Q. There is a picture on the wall. Is that the same wall where the air conditioner was located? A. The back wall, yes. Q. And the air conditioner is on the other side of the bed? A. (Nods affirmatively.) Q. Is that correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. So you're in your room and Mr. Simpson came to your room. And what did he say? A. He had told me that I forgot to turn the jacuzzi jets off. I apologized. Q. And you remember what he was wearing at that time? A. It was the same outfit I'd seen before, the dark sweats. Q. Was it common, by the way, for Mr. Simpson to come to your room? A. No. MR. BAKER: Object, your Honor. There's no foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Was that -- was that the first time he had been to your room? A. I think maybe once before. Q. After you apologized, what happened next? A. He had left, and it seemed like he came back again, a short time later. Q. And when Mr. Simpson returned a short time later, what were you doing? A. I was on the phone. Q. And who were you talking to? A. To Tom O'Brien. Q. Where did O'Brien live at the time you were talking to him? A. In San Diego. Q. And what happened when Mr. Simpson came to your room this second time this evening? A. He asked to borrow some money. Q. You were on the phone? A. I was on -- on the phone. Q. What did he do? He knocked on the door? A. He shouted my name. I didn't get off the phone; I put it down on the bed; and I said, "What's up?" And he said, I have an embarrassing question; I've got to ask you for some money because all I have is hundreds. Q. Did he say to you why he needed the money? A. For a sky cap to tip him, I believe. Q. And what did you say? A. I said sure. I gave him a twenty. Q. And then what happened? A. Well, then he said he was going to get something to eat, and I invited myself to come along, and -- Q. How did you do that? A. I said, hey, I'm kind of hungry; can I go? Q. Let me back up for a second. After you gave him the 20-dollar bill, what did he say next to you? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: That he -- Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You said something about going to dinner, if you can recall? A. Yeah. He had said that he was going to get something to eat. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I object to that leading of Mr. Petrocelli. He can ask a question without saying -- MR. PETROCELLI: I was trying to bring him back to the same point of reference. MR. BAKER: Then going to dinner. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You understand where we are in the testimony? I'm trying to get you to tell the jury, as best as you can recall, what Mr. Simpson said to you after you gave him the 20-dollar bill? A. Okay. I was -- he had mentioned that he was going to get something to eat. Q. Is that what he said? A. Yes. Q. I'm going to get something to eat? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And what did you then say? A. I wanted to come along, and I asked if it was okay for me to go. Q. Is that what you said? A. Yes. Can I go? I was on the phone. I told Tom, my friend, hey, I'll call you back. Q. And then what did Mr. Simpson say when you said, "Can I go?" A. There was a pause. MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You may answer. A. There was a pause, and I felt as if I wasn't supposed to invite myself. MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. BAKER: Can he answer the question? THE COURT: Spit it out. THE WITNESS: So I invited myself. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What did Mr. Simpson say after you said -- A. It was quite a pause. Then he said to me, yeah, you can come along. Q. Okay. And you, in terms of your state of mind when he said that, after the pause, what did you feel? A. That I invited myself. MR. BAKER: I object. It's irrelevant. THE COURT: The answer may remain. Let's move it along. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, when you -- when Mr. Simpson came down to see you, did you look at the watch or the clock to see what time it was? A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: Let me show you the next exhibit in order, exhibit -- the next exhibit -- I should say Exhibit C-189. (The instrument herein referred to as Blow up entitled calls made by Brian Kaelin June 12, 1994 was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 189.) Q. We showed you your phone records. From that phone record, can you tell us what time Mr. Simpson came to your room and asked you for the money -- A. Yes. Q. -- and then went off to dinner? This is 189. There's an entry on June 12 at 2103, which is 9:03, to San Diego for 8 minutes. Is that the call? A. Yes, it is. Q. That's to whom? A. To Tom O'Brien. Q. So at the end of that call, would have been 9:11 p.m.? A. Yes. Q. And is that the time that you think you left with Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And when you hung up the phone with Mr. Simpson -- with Mr. O'Brien, excuse me -- you then proceeded with Mr. Simpson to go where? A. Through the house. Q. Yeah? A. To the nook area. Q. Yeah? A. And into the Bentley. Q. Now, during this entire period of time, from the moment you invited yourself to dinner, to the time you got in the car, the Bentley, did Mr. Simpson ask you where you wanted to go for dinner? A. No. Q. Did Mr. Simpson say anything to you about what dress you should wear or he should wear for dinner? A. No. Q. Did you say anything to Mr. Simpson about where you should go for dinner? A. No. Q. Was there any conversation at all about where you were going to dinner? A. No. Q. When you got in the Bentley, did you know where you were going to dinner? A. No. MR. BAKER: Objection. Relevance, Your Honor. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, what happened when you got into the Bentley? A. I got into the passenger side and we took off. Q. Okay. And what gate did you leave out of? A. It would be the Rockingham gate. Q. Okay. And you -- when -- you know how Mr. Simpson opened the Rockingham gate, from inside his Bentley? A. I think there was a button he presses. Q. And the gates automatically open? A. Yes. Q. Did Mr. Simpson do anything unusual when he got to the Rockingham gate before he left? A. No. Q. Did he stop and wait for the gates to close before he took off? A. No. Q. Did he say anything to you about looking for Chachi? MR. BAKER: Objection. Leading and suggestive. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Okay. Where did you and Mr. Simpson drive? A. We drove to McDonald's. Q. Okay. At any point during the ride to McDonald's, did Mr. Simpson say to you where you were going? A. No. Q. So you didn't know? A. I did not know. Q. At some point in time, he pulled into a McDonald's? A. Correct. Q. And what happened then? A. Went to the drive-through and he ordered the food. Q. Okay. Happen to remember what he ordered? A. I think it was a large hamburger. MR. BAKER: Relevance. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Large one, I think fries, and a drink. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And you ordered? A. A grilled McChicken and French fries and an orange drink. Q. And who paid? A. I paid. Q. And did -- do you know if Mr. Simpson -- how he -- you paid by giving up the money to Mr. Simpson? A. Correct. Q. Was there any change coming back? A. Yes, there was. Q. Who handed it back to you? A. He did. Q. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson got any change for the airport, for the sky cap? A. No. Q. After the food was ordered, then what happened? A. Then we drove right back. He ate his food and drove right back to the house. Q. Mr. Simpson ate his food in the car? A. Yes. Q. Did you eat your food in the car? A. No. Q. What were you doing with your food? A. It was in my lap. Q. Was there a lot of conversation in the car? A. No. Q. Now, what happened when you returned to Rockingham? A. Okay. We got -- I got out of the car. Q. First of all, do you remember which gate you used to get back on to the property? A. I'm pretty sure it was the Ashford gate. So I got out of the car and had my food and I started to walk towards the nook area and I looked behind and he wasn't next to me, and then I said, well, I'll go to my room. Q. When you got out of the car and -- with your food and started walking to the nook area, why were you doing that? A. Because I thought -- we had gone to get the dinner together -- that I was going to eat it there too, you know, eat it with him. Q. Okay. Did you assume that he was going into the kitchen with you? A. I assumed -- MR. BAKER: Irrelevant, and his state of mind is immaterial. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) When you -- as you approached the kitchen nook door -- is there a door there? A. Yes. Q. -- what did you see Mr. Simpson doing? A. He was at the front door of the Bentley, just standing there. Q. Okay. Was he walking? A. No. Q. Was he bending down? A. No. Q. Was he scooping out lettuce from the driver's side of his car? A. No. Q. Was he doing anything to indicate that he was cleaning or picking things up? A. No. Q. What did you say to him? A. I looked, and I said I'll go to my room. Q. Okay. And when you got to your room, what did you do? A. I think I got the food and I called Tom back. Q. And from your cell phone records, again -- MR. PETROCELLI: What exhibit number is that, 189? A. It was a regular phone. Q. I'm sorry. From your telephone records, Exhibit 189, there's an entry at 9:37 to San Diego, 7 minute phone call. A. (Nods affirmatively.) Q. Is that the time that you made a phone call, when you got back from McDonald's? A. Yes, it is. Q. Using that as a point of reference, 9:37, what time did you get back to your room following the trip to McDonald's with Mr. Simpson? A. I got back to the room probably right at 9:37, possibly, called Tom immediately. Q. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to put up 116 again, the diagram of Rockingham. (Exhibit 116 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And if you would, with the Court's permission, walk over here and point to where the -- Mr. Simpson's Bentley was parked when you returned from Rockingham? A. Right here. Q. In that little alcove there? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Can we put an X. MR. PETROCELLI: Indicating this alcove. MR. BAKER: I understand he's indicating. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think we need an X. THE COURT: It's his exhibit. You want an overlay; do your overlay. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Where's the door, by looking at Exhibit 116, to the kitchen nook that you were heading towards? A. (Indicating.) Q. At what point in the path from the Bentley to the kitchen nook did you decide to go back to your room? A. Right here. Q. Okay. And at what point in your trip from the Bentley to the kitchen did you turn around and see Mr. Simpson, where were you? A. I was about here (indicating). Q. And where was he? A. Still right here, at the car (indicating). Q. Okay. Now, after you went back to your room, what did you do? A. From McDonald's? Q. Yeah. A. I called Tom up. Q. And after you got off the phone call with Tom, what did you do? A. I was going to type up resumes. I -- there was a typewriter in the office area, so I plugged it in two outlets and I tried to plug it in everywhere and it wasn't working. After I sort of gave up on it, I called up Rachel. Q. And who is Rachel? A. She was a friend of mine. Q. And she's a local call? A. Yes. Q. And you spoke to Rachel on the telephone? A. I did. Q. What else did you do? A. Well, the time I was talking to her I was kind of -- had the phone in the bed. I said, Rachel, I'm plugging in this typewriter, it's not working here. I was explaining to her that the outlets weren't working. And I stayed on the phone with her for awhile. Q. And during the time that you were in the room -- you were in your room, right? A. Correct. Q. Did you ever leave the property during this time you're describing? A. Yes, I did. Q. Okay. You left the property when something happened later on, right? A. Correct. Q. Before we get to that, during the time that you're in your room talking to Rachel about a typewriter, did you leave the room at all? A. No. Q. Did you see Mr. Simpson at all? A. No. Q. Did you hear him? A. No. Q. Okay. Were you looking at the clock and watch at all? A. No. Q. Then what happened? A. Then I heard these three noises that were thumps, three loud thumps, and my picture moved in the... MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have the photo of his room with the picture. This is 143 on the television monitor. Give me 194, Steve. (Exhibit 194 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) When the noises occurred, did you look at a watch or a clock? A. No. Q. And you said a picture moved. Can you point to Exhibit 194 and tell us what picture you're referring to? A. This picture. It just moved after I heard the thumps, the picture moved that way. Q. It tilted a little bit? A. It tilted. Q. How do you know that it moved? A. I saw it. Q. Now, where were you at the precise time that you heard these noises? A. Leaning up against this bed, like that, talking on the phone (indicating). Q. Talking on the phone? A. (Witness nods.) Q. So your back was against the head board? A. Yes. Q. And you said you heard these noises. What did they sound like? A. Like someone falling back behind my bedroom wall. Q. And what makes you say that? A. Because that's what it sounded like to me after -- Q. You previously testified about the rhythm and volume of these noises. Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. By hitting the witness stand. Can you demonstrate that to the jury, the rhythm and the volume of the noises. A. (Witness pounds witness stand three times.) Q. And did you feel anything against your back? A. Yes. Q. What did you feel? A. Vibration. Q. Okay. What did you then do? A. Well, I talked to Rachel on the phone, I said, Rachel, did we just have an earthquake? Q. Why did you say that? A. I kind of wanted to believe that it was an earthquake because the picture moved. And she said no. Q. Why did you want to believe it was an earthquake? A. Because I didn't want to believe there was someone back there. Q. And what did Rachel then say? A. She said no. Q. What did you then do? A. I explained to her what had happened, the picture moved, and I said I should probably check on this. Q. What did you do? A. I got off the phone with her and then -- I have a flashlight, pen light, in the drawer, and I went to check on the noise. Q. About how long of a period of time were you on the telephone with Rachel from the time you heard these noises until the time you got off? A. About two to three minutes. Q. And at two to three minutes, what was said? A. To Rachel? Q. Yes, and you. A. I was saying to her that this noise -- that it first was an earthquake, and I was trying to convince myself that -- not to be scared. I told her, well, I'm going to check on this noise. If you don't hear from me in ten minutes, be worried. In a joking manner. And she was saying why don't you come over here, that type -- Q. She said why don't you come over here? A. Yes. Q. What did you say? A. I said no, I better check on this. Q. Was there anything else said? A. No. Q. Is that all that was said in the time from when you heard the noises until you got off? A. I believe so, yes. MR. BAKER: Leading and suggestive, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Can you recall anything else that was said other than what you have testified to thus far? A. No. Q. From the time you heard the noises until the time you got off? A. No, I think that was it. Q. Okay. Now, when you got off the phone, did you look at a watch or a clock? A. No. Q. Okay. Why don't you then describe again what you did when you got off the phone? A. I went out through the -- my door. Q. First you did what? A. I opened the drawer. Q. Yes. A. And I had a flashlight. Q. Now, there's a dresser right next to your bed here, underneath the picture. Is that the dresser that had the drawer that you opened? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And you got -- what kind of flashlight did you get? A. Like about the size of this pen (indicating to magic marker). Or marker. Q. Okay. A. And I went outside and I went to the path to the front of the house and I followed that around. Q. Now, could you go over to Exhibit 116, and it might be helpful if you use this pointer, and could you trace for the jury the route that you took when you left your house upon hearing -- left your room upon hearing the noises? A. I went out my door, through to these stairs, followed this to that path and I took this path all the way there. Q. Okay. Why don't you stop there for a moment. At what pace were you walking? A. Brisk. Q. From the moment you grabbed the flashlight or pen light or whatever it was, till the time that you started walking out, did you do anything in between? A. No. Q. And did you walk directly to the area that you just traced? A. Yes. Q. And approximately how long did that take from -- let me clarify the question. How long did it take from when you got off the phone with Rachel until the time that you arrived around this point right here (indicating to Exhibit)? A. About 30 to 40 seconds. Q. Now, when you arrived at that point, and for the record, I was pointing to where the pathway intersects the driveway, did you see anything? A. Yes, there was the limousine at the gate. Q. You saw a limousine at the gate? A. Yes, I did. Q. Where was the limousine parked, if you could be a little more precise? A. Here's the gate, and the car was pulled all the way up to the gate. Q. When you passed that limousine or walked by that limousine, did you stop? A. No. Q. Did you wave? A. No. Q. Did you do anything in regard to the limousine? A. No. Q. What did you do? A. I went back, followed this -- the driveway, and I went behind by the garage area, where I -- there's a little gate here that's off the hinge, I picked it up and I moved to the side and I walked down just a bit of the way with the pen light and tried to look. Q. And what was your purpose in going where you just described? A. Well, I heard it back here and I thought that's the way I have to go to see if -- where the noise is coming from. Q. Okay. I'd like you to assume that based upon cell phone records and other evidence in the case, that the limousine driver saw you -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to object to this, Your Honor. MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, your honor, I haven't finished my question. MR. BAKER: I understand that. But there's no -- this is leading, suggestive, and hypothetical. MR. PETROCELLI: It is not leading. THE COURT: Sustained. I'll sustain it. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Okay. Do you have an estimate of the time that you heard these noises? A. In between the 10:40 to 10:50 hour. Q. Okay. Now, is that -- what do you base that on? A. The phone calls. Q. All right. Did you at any time -- A. I didn't, I never looked at a clock. Q. I can't hear you. A. I didn't look at a clock. Q. At any time? A. No. Q. Now, when you walked past that limo driver, after hearing the noises, was that the first time that evening that you walked past a limo driver on the property? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Why don't you complete what you were telling us. You walked behind that garage, correct? A. Correct. Q. And what did you do? MR. BAKER: I object to a narrative. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I walked a few steps, five feet, and I shined the light, and the light was -- it's somewhat dim, and I went back out that same path. I put the gate back up. Q. Well, how far did you get down? A. Maybe here. Q. Okay. Why did you stop? A. Scared. Q. And why were you scared? A. Because I had a little pen light and that's it. Q. Was it dark? A. Yes. Q. Could you see in front of you? A. Not really. Q. When you turned around, what did you then do? A. All right. So I went back up this way and I put the gate back up and I noticed the limo still was outside and I thought maybe I should let this limo driver in. Q. Okay. Why don't you -- before you get to the limo driver, let me ask you a couple of other questions. When you did your first route around the back of the house to the front of the house, were -- were you able to observe the main residence? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did you notice if there were any lights on in the downstairs part of the main residence in the back when you were walking around? A. I thought maybe the bedroom lights might have been on. Q. Now, the bedroom is not -- is the bedroom downstairs or upstairs? A. It's upstairs. Q. Whose bedroom? A. O.J.'s. Q. So what are you saying, that you thought you saw what upstairs? A. I thought maybe the lights were -- in the upstairs were on, possibly. Q. Could you tell if his television was on? A. Yes. Q. Could you tell -- A. No, it wasn't on. Q. Could you tell if it had been on? A. No. I think I'm confusing the question. I'm sorry. Q. Let me ask you this: Had you ever seen from your vantage point in the back of the house, in the backyard, up into Mr. Simpson's bedroom, could you ever tell if he were watching television? A. Yeah, I could see a reflection. Q. You could see what? A. A reflection that I could tell if the TV was on. Q. At night? A. Yes. Q. Okay. What do you mean by reflection? A. The screen of the TV will reflect off the window. Q. And -- A. His bedroom window. Q. His bedroom window? A. Yes. Q. When you made this route around the house after you heard the noises, did you see anything from Mr. Simpson's bedroom to indicate that the television was on? MR. BAKER: Objection, no foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Did not see. Q. Okay. And please state again whether or not you saw lights on or off in the bottom part of the house? A. I believe they were off. Q. Okay. Now, when you walked around the house the first time and you walked past this point here, did you notice whether lights were on or off in this part of the house, the front part that faces the driveway? A. I believe it was dark. Q. Okay. After you came back from your trip from behind the garage, or your partial trip I should say, you said you saw the limo driver was out there? A. I saw the limo was back there. Q. Was the car in a different or the same place than when you saw it the first time? A. Same place. Q. What did you do? A. I went to this gate control box. Q. Yes. A. And I opened it up, I pressed the button, and the gates opened. Q. What gates opened? A. The Ashford Street gate. So the limo could get in. Q. And what happened? A. And the driver drove up. And the dog was here, Chachi, and I waited for Chachi to get across because Chachi started to go in front of the car and went back into the grass area, and the driver came up. Q. Now, when you let the limo driver in by pressing that button, as of that time had you had any conversation with him at all? A. No. Q. Had you even seen him? A. No. Q. So you did this on your own? A. Yes. Q. And why did you do so? A. I was wondering why he was out there. Q. Had you ever done that before? A. No. THE COURT: Want to take a recess of 10 minutes? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, Your Honor, it's a good time. THE COURT: Witness is ordered not to speak to the media. THE BAILIFF: Media folks, stand by -- THE COURT: You're ordered not to interfere with the trial process by attempting to interview the witness during the recess. THE BAILIFF: All media out in the hallway to the right side. Do not approach any of the -- approach where the witnesses are standing for the recess. (Break.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me back up a second. When you heard the noises against the wall -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to object to this exhibit because there's some inaccuracy on that exhibit. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm only using it for the location of the rooms, Mr. Baker, not the -- MR. BAKER: Everybody can see everything. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think -- MR. BAKER: The first floor protection plan is inaccurate. MR. PETROCELLI: It was used in the other case. MR. BAKER: That doesn't make it any more accurate. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to be using it to refer to locations of particular rooms, okay? THE COURT: You may. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. By the way, that number is Exhibit 199, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Thank you. (The instrument herein described as a diagram entitled "360 North Rockingham Avenue," with a legend at the bottom, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 199.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Was this the first time you had ever heard noises against the room of your wall (sic)? A. Yes. Q. Was this the first time you had ever gone to investigate sounds behind your wall? A. Yes. Q. Now, when you were walking around from the back -- I want to make sure we understand your testimony -- I asked you if you saw any lights on in the downstairs of the house. You remember those questions? A. Yes, I do. Q. Okay. So when you left your room -- and I'm referring to this exhibit. MR. FOSTER: 199. MR. PETROCELLI: 199. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) To be more specific, did you see any lights in the family room? A. No, I don't believe I did. Q. If lights were on in the family room, would you have seen them? A. Yes. Q. Did you see any lights in the living room? A. No. Q. If lights were on in the living room, would you have seen them? A. Yes. Q. Now, we come around, and you have this den here. Did you see lights on in the den? A. No. Q. Would you have seen lights if they were on? A. I believe so, yes. Q. And what about in the kitchen breakfast area, see lights on there? A. No. Q. Would you be able to see lights on? A. I believe so, yes. Q. When the limousine driver pulled in, did the dog, Chachi, run out of the gate? A. No. Q. And what happened now, picking up the story, when the limousine driver pulled in, what did you then do? A. Okay, I was making sure that Chachi was safe. He was crossing in front of the limo, then he, Chachi, laid down in the grass, and the limo driver -- limo driver pulled up to the front door entrance. Q. Did he get out? A. Yes. Q. This is the first time you actually saw him? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. Continue; what happened next? A. So he got out of the car, and I introduced myself and he introduced himself, and I had some conversation with him about the -- I told him about the noises I had heard. Then I told him that I had this light and I was going to go back there. And I ended up going back there. I also asked him in other parts of the conversation where -- I was asking him if O.J. overslept. Q. Why did you ask the limousine driver if Mr. Simpson had overslept? MR. BAKER: Objection, state of mind is irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What did the limousine driver say in response to that? MR. BAKER: Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. THE WITNESS: I don't remember offhand. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection has been sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) After you had some conversation with the limousine driver, you said you went to look again behind the garage? A. Yes, I did. Q. Now, up to that point in time, had you seen Mr. Simpson since the Bentley? A. I don't believe so, no. Q. Since your trip to McDonald's? A. Correct. Q. And what did you then do when you went behind the house again? Let me put up the exhibit. (Exhibit 116 displayed.) Q. You can tell us, though. A. This is my second trip. What I did is I went a little further this time. Q. And why? A. I felt a little safer. The limo driver was there. I also had said to Chachi, come on, Chachi, come with me, and he just laid there. I just said to the limo driver, I said great watch dog, huh, and I think he laughed. Then I went back there. Q. Why did you want Chachi to come with you? A. You know, a dog, if there's a prowler, it would frighten him I believe. I thought it was safer to have a dog. Q. You ended up going alone? A. Yes. Q. With the same light? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And can you -- by going to Exhibit 116, can you point out to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how far you went? (Exhibit 116 displayed.) A. This time I went down the pathway, I moved the gate again and I picked it up, put it down. There's another gate there, here, about here, and I went about three to five feet in front of it, the gate. Q. And where on Exhibit 116 did you hear the noises? A. Down here. Q. And as far as you went was where? A. Right about here. Q. And you're pointing to the end of the garage? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Now, on your return trip, the second time, what did you do? You turned around and did what? A. Turned around and I put back that gate. Q. Yeah? A. And I went to the limo driver. Q. Okay. And when you went back to the limo driver, what was he doing? A. I don't remember. Q. Did you see anything at all on your way back from the back of the garage? A. I believe I saw O.J. Q. Okay? A. And he was outside -- I don't know if he was coming in from the door or not but he was just outside. Q. And do you know what he was doing? A. No. Q. Did you notice any luggage anywhere? A. Yes, there was a golf bag right here at this doorway. Q. Yeah? A. And on my second trip I noticed there was a duffel bag right here. Q. You're pointing to . . . A. Where the Bentley would be -- in the back of the Bentley. Q. Back of the Bentley. And you noticed that bag when? A. On my second trip. Q. When you say on your second -- A. Second trip. Q. To or from the back of the house? A. This is coming back from the house. Q. The second time? A. Correct. Q. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you put on the next picture, Steve. What exhibit number is that, 2197? (The instrument herein described as a Photograph of the Bentley automobile belonging to O.J. Simpson was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2197.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) This is a photograph taken later on. Do you recognize what's in the photo? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's the Bentley. Q. I'm not sure if you can tell from this photo, let us know if you can, point out to the jury the area where you saw this bag. A. The bag would have been under this taillight, about here. (Indicating to exhibit.) Q. And, if you could, sort of transpose that onto Exhibit 116. And I know these things may not be to scale, just do your best. A. Right. If it would be parked right here, it would be out on this side here, the bag. Q. So you're pointing to the area above the A in driveway? A. Yes. (Indicating to Exhibit 116.) A. In back of the Bentley where it would be parked, correct. Q. Had you ever seen that bag before? A. Never. Q. When you saw the bag, did you go up to it? A. At one point I was going towards it. Q. On your trip back from the garage? A. No, I just walked right by it. Q. You just observed it? A. Yes. Q. Did you do anything to it? A. No. Q. When you saw Mr. Simpson, did you have any conversation with him, did he -- you can answer yes or no. A. Yes. Q. What did he say and what did you say? A. I had told him about the noises I had heard. Q. Tell me what you said? A. I said, hey, you know, I heard these noises behind my room, I thought it was an earthquake but it wasn't an earthquake, my picture moved, I think something was back there. Q. And what did he say? A. At one point he had said well, I'll go one way, you go one way to check on the noise. Q. Okay. A. I had said, I've got this lousy flashlight here and it could only go so far. And the limo driver had already checked 'cause I asked him in a previous conversation, and he didn't have one, but he kept looking in his glove box, I believe, for a better flashlight, the limo driver, and we didn't find one. Q. Then in this conversation with Mr. Simpson you said something to him about a flashlight? A. Correct. Q. What did you say and what did he say? A. I said, this is the only flashlight I have, I hope we have a better one, if we have a better one and he said he'd go and check if there was a better flashlight in the house. Q. And then what happened? A. Well, at one point he was motioning to which side he was going to go and cover and which side I would go around, and then I mentioned again that this is a lousy flashlight, so that he went into the house to check -- to find -- Q. Did you go with him? A. Yes. Q. And tell me what happened once you were inside the house? A. Once I'm inside the house, there's an opening to the kitchen, and I would stand right here, and he'd be in the kitchen there. MR. PETROCELLI: Watch out. (Indicating to Mr. Kaelin's use of the pointer in the path of the jury box.) THE WITNESS: Lawsuit. Q. You might want to step back. A. So I -- and I walked into the kitchen area so I could see him in the kitchen, and then he went and he looked at the clock and said, it's that late, I got to go. Q. Did you get into the kitchen? A. I was at the doorway of the kitchen. I could see into the kitchen. Q. Let me get this straight. You followed him into the house? A. Into the house. Q. And then he went into the kitchen? A. Correct. Q. And you got to the threshold? A. Yes. Q. And what did you see him do inside the kitchen? A. Kind of hurried, and walked -- and he looked up at the clock and said, oh, my God, it's that time, I got to go. Q. And then what happened? A. Then he came outside to the foyer area. Q. And what happened? A. And then he was getting ready to leave. Q. Did the two of you then leave the house? A. Well, we were in the -- by the doorway. Q. Inside or outside? A. Inside, yes. Q. Did you walk out? A. Yes. Q. From the time he said, oh, I got to go, did you -- did you then immediately go out with him? A. No, because he had mentioned to me in the foyer to set the alarm. Q. Oh? Tell us about that. A. So I was still sort of in the foyer area, and he said, well, set the alarm. I said, I don't know the alarm code. I said, you do. And that was the last -- Q. Had he ever asked you to set the alarm before? A. No. Q. Did you ever have anything to do with the alarm? A. No. Q. After he asked you to set the alarm and you said you didn't know how, what happened then? A. Well, I assume that he was setting the alarm, and I started to walk and I saw that the duffel bag was still there. Q. You're now outside the house? A. Now I'm outside the house. Q. Is he outside the house? A. Yes. Q. Let me stop you right there. When Mr. Simpson was in the kitchen and you were at the threshold of the kitchen, did you see him bleed? A. No. Q. Did you see him dab blood onto a paper towel or tissue? A. No. Q. Did you see bleeding onto a counter? A. No. Q. Had you seen any blood? A. No. Q. When you got outside with Mr. Simpson, then what happened? A. Okay. Now that I thought that he was setting the alarm, I came out this way and I noticed that the bag was still there, and I thought that's part of the luggage, and I started to walk towards the bag, to get the duffel bag, to pack it. Q. And then what happened? A. And then he said to me, no, Kato, I'll get that, I'll get that. Q. Who said that? A. O.J. Q. What did he say? A. No, Kato, I'll get that, I'll get that. Q. Then what did he do? A. Then I turned around, and he came that way and I -- then I never saw what happened. MR. PETROCELLI: And you may resume the witness stand. Let me get an exhibit. This has been previously marked as Exhibit 899? MR. FOSTER: Yes. (Displaying Exhibit 899.) Q. Let me show you what has been marked as Exhibit 899. Do you see this bag? A. Yes. Q. Is this the bag that you saw behind the Bentley? A. No. Q. Okay. Have you ever seen this bag before? A. No. Q. When you had the -- withdrawn. When you came out of the house, Mr. Simpson went to get the bag, then what happened? A. Then he got into the limousine. Q. Okay. A. And they were off. Q. Now, how did they get out of the property? A. There's another gate box. Q. Yeah. You want to point it out? (Witness indicates to Exhibit 116.) A. So they got into the limousine, and it's in the driveway, and I went over here to the gate control box, and I opened it up. Q. Then what happened? A. They drove off. Q. They went out the Rockingham gate? A. Correct. Q. Which direction did the car turn, if you know? A. They were going to the airport, so I imagine left. Q. You did see them turn? A. I waited for the gate to close so I believe I did. Q. Did the dog run out? A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: You may resume the witness stand. (Witness complies.) Q. Now, couple of questions about what you just testified to. From the time that you last saw Mr. Simpson at the Bentley, after McDonald's, until the time that you next saw him in this area backing up the car -- are you with me? A. Yes. Q. During that period of time. A. Um-hum. Q. Did you have any contact with him at all? A. No. Q. Did you talk to him? A. No. Q. Did you hear his voice? A. No. Q. Did you hear any activity coming from the house? A. No. Q. Did you hear the chipping of golf balls? A. No. Q. Did you hear any golf balls scalding play equipment or hitting anything? A. No. Q. Did you hear doors open and close? MR. BAKER: Your Honor, there's no foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. A. No. Q. Did you hear any sound at all indicating his presence on the property? MR. BAKER: No foundation, he heard any sound from where he ever was. THE COURT: Overruled. A. No. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You were in your room this entire time that we've been talking about, right? A. Yes. Q. Did you hear or see any activity in the backyard? A. No. Q. And you could see up into Mr. Simpson's room and the light was on? A. Yes. Q. Did you see or hear anything up there? A. No. Q. Any TV flashing? A. No. Q. Mr. Simpson had been to your room how many times that evening? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Twice. Q. Had he -- Did he come to your room again? A. No. Q. Now, when you had the conversation with Mr. Simpson about, you know, the sounds that you heard, did Mr. Simpson tell you to call the police? A. No. Q. Did he tell you to call Westec? A. No. Q. Did he tell you to talk to Arnelle when she came home, Arnelle, his daughter, to make sure that she was safe? A. No. Q. Did he say anything to you about what you should do in regard to those noises? A. No. Q. When you came back from McDonald's with Mr. Simpson, do you recall what he was wearing? A. I believe it was the same outfit, the dark sweat suit. Q. After Mr. Simpson and the limousine driver left the property, what did you do? A. I went right to my room. Q. What did you do? A. I called up Rachel. Q. And you talked to her for awhile? A. Yes, I did. Q. And then what happened? A. Then there's a period during our conversation where I have call waiting, and the call waiting beep happened, and the call waiting -- I said, Rachel, I've got another call. So I got the call and it was O.J. and he said, I didn't alarm the house, did -- THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Didn't alarm the house? Q. What did you say? A. I went, oh, I didn't know the alarm code. Q. What did he say? A. He said, well, here's the alarm code, this is what you do, and he gave me the code and said, then the light will go, I believe red, that means it's set. Q. Did you write the code down? A. Yes. Q. And then what happened? A. And then I got back on my other call and told Rachel, I'll call you right back again. Q. Okay. Now, has Mr. Simpson ever beeped you on your line before? A. No. Q. And other than what he did in the foyer minutes before when he left the property, had he ever asked you to set the alarm? A. No. Q. What did you then do? A. After I set the alarm? Q. Yes. A. Okay. So I set the alarm, I came back to the room, and I called Rachel. Q. Set the alarm. Where did you set the alarm? A. I made the same exact -- shall I go up? Q. Yes. Show the jury where the alarm pad was located. A. Now, after I told Rachel, I went back up this way, came this way, and I went right here, and it's right there by the door. (Indicating to Exhibit 116.) Q. Is it on the outside? A. Yes. Q. You did not have to enter the house? A. No. Q. And then you went back to your room? A. Yes. Q. And then ultimately you went to sleep? A. Well, I talked for quite a bit yet. Q. Okay. You may resume the witness stand. Now, I want to turn to the next evening, Monday, June 13. Were you at a friend's house? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And who is that friend, by the way? A. Grant Cramer. Q. At some point while you're at Grant Cramer's house, did you get a phone call? A. Yes, I did. Q. Who was it from? A. I believe it was Howard Weitzman. Q. Was anyone else on that call? A. O.J. Q. Mr. Simpson? A. Correct. Q. And tell us what Mr. Simpson and Mr. Weitzman said to you in that call. MR. BAKER: Objection, hearsay. MR. PETROCELLI: These are admissions, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. BAKER: It can't be an admission to Mr. Weitzman, he cannot make that admission. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. You may answer. A. I believe, to the best of my recollection, there was going to be a meeting they wanted me to go to, to talk to lawyers. Q. Did they ask you any questions? A. I think they asked me about the events of everything that happened. Q. And you answered their questions? A. Yes. Q. Now, did you then leave Mr. Cramer's house? A. At some time, yes, I did. Q. Where did you go? A. I went back to Simpson's house. Q. By the way, did you know who Howard Weitzman was in that telephone call? A. I knew he was a lawyer. I didn't know what he looked like. Q. Now, after you left Mr. Cramer's house, where did you go? A. Back to the house, to Rockingham. Q. Was this evening now? A. Yes. Q. Monday, June 13? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And when you entered the house, what did you see? A. It was full of media everywhere, and then I went into the house and there was groups of people sitting in the living room area in front of the TV. Q. Inside the house? A. Inside the house. Q. There weren't media in the house? A. No. Q. You meant outside? A. There was media outside, parked outside. Q. Now, in the house what did you see? A. Inside the house everybody was watching TV and shouting to the events of the day of saying, oh -- making comment to the reporter's. Q. You mean on television? A. Television. Q. They were shouting at the television. Was Mr. Simpson there? A. Yes. Q. And what was he doing? A. He was sitting in a chair watching it also. Q. And did you notice anything about him? A. Yes. Q. What did you notice? A. I noticed on his finger he had a tissue paper and there was blood dripping -- blood seeping through. Q. Now, did there come a time that evening that you had a conversation with Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. And how long after you got there did you have that conversation? A. The time frame -- I don't know exactly how long. I'd -- you know, I'm guessing 10 or so minutes. Q. Where did that conversation occur? A. In the kitchen. Q. Who was present in the kitchen during that conversation? A. I believe it was just us. Q. Who is us? A. O.J. and Kato. Q. And tell me what was said. A. He had said, you saw me go into the house after McDonald's, and I had said, no, I didn't. He had said that I saw him walk into the house from McDonald's. Q. O.J.? A. O.J. said that to me. He said, Kato, you saw me go into the house from McDonald's. Q. And what did you say? A. I said, no, I didn't. Q. Why did you say that? A. Because I didn't. Q. Now, the next day, on June 14, Tuesday, were you interviewed by any lawyers? A. Yes, I was. Q. And who were the lawyers who interviewed you? A. I was interviewed by Skip Taft and Robert Shapiro. Q. Mr. Shapiro here in the courtroom today? A. Right there. Q. And did Mr. Shapiro ask you what time you heard the noises? A. Yes, he did. Q. And what did you tell Mr. Shapiro? A. In my interview I said, I heard it between 10:40 and 10:50. Q. Was that based on looking at a watch or a clock? A. No. Q. Was it an estimate? A. Yes, it was. Q. Was that the first time you'd been interviewed by lawyers? A. Yes, it was. Q. And did you understand Mr. Shapiro was the lawyer for Mr. Simpson? A. Yes, I did. MR. PETROCELLI: No further questions, Your Honor. THE COURT: Cross-examine. THE CLERK: For the record, the last exhibit was Defense Exhibit 899. I just wanted to put on the record that it's marked by reference to case number BA097211. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, I'd like to move all the exhibits I marked into evidence. For the record, they are numbers 181, 194, 143, 114, 188, 189, 199, 2197, and 899. MR. LEONARD: That doesn't include the one chart we were speaking about that's inaccurate or does it? MR. PETROCELLI: It does. MR. LEONARD: We would object to that. THE CLERK: That's 199? MR. PETROCELLI: That's 199. THE COURT: Okay, 199 is not received. Everything else is. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 181.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 194.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 143.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 114.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 188.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 189.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 2197.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 899.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. Good morning, sir. A. Morning. Q. Now, Mr. Kaelin, you are an actor, right? A. Correct. Q. Kind of a want-to-be actor, would that be fair? A. I studied. I don't know. Q. Okay. And you have your attorney here in the courtroom? A. Yes. Q. Is your agent here? A. No. Q. Okay. Now, in terms of -- in terms of your involvement in the O.J. Simpson case, you were interviewed on June 13, 1994 by a couple police officers, correct? A. Correct. Q. You were interviewed by Mr. Shapiro and Skip Taft on the 14th, correct? A. Correct. Q. You testified at the preliminary hearing under penalty of perjury in June of 1994, correct? A. Correct. Q. You testified at the preliminary hearing under penalty of perjury in July of 1994, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you testified at the criminal trial under penalty of perjury in -- was it February of 1994? MR. LEONARD: '95. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) '95, I'm sorry. You testified in 1995 in the criminal trial, true? A. Correct. Q. All right. Now, you had -- before your deposition was given in this case, also under penalty of perjury, you spent what, eight, nine hours with Mr. Petrocelli? A. Correct. Q. And after that deposition was taken and before you got on the witness stand today, you spent how many more hours, about, with Mr. Petrocelli? A. I spent three and a half hours on Sunday, and an hour, probably, today. Q. And you went over and had breakfast with Mr. Medvene this morning across the street? A. I had to. Q. I hope they paid. A. I think so. Q. In terms of your testimony, you testified -- and I want to get to one area, then we'll go back and try to go through it chronologically. You testified about Mr. Simpson, after he got back from the recital, talking about Nicole wearing tight fitting dresses. Remember that? A. Yes, I do. Q. And you told the grand jury in June, within two weeks of the murders occurring, that Mr. Simpson was joking, correct, when he was talking about the dresses? A. If I could see it. I said that. Q. Well, do you have a recollection of that, sir? A. I don't right now, no. MR. BAKER: Bring up, please, page 59, line 24 through page 60, line -- see right there. (Transcript page displayed on TV screen.) "Q. And he was making reference to tight dresses or outfits? And you answer, dresses, yeah. "Did he seem angry when he said that? "A. No." Pull it over to page 60. MR. P. BAKER: What line? MR. BAKER: Keep going. I'm sorry. Page 60, lines 1 through 15. Maybe that's -- MR. PETROCELLI: Now, Your Honor, I don't mind this for ease of convenience, he ought to go to a specific place rather than scrolling through this transcript. It's not proper. THE COURT: If you could direct your operator to go to a particular location without scrolling. MR. BAKER: My technical operator hasn't followed my directions for the last 28 years. (Laughter) MR. BAKER: Did you go to page 60? Just bring it down. Yeah. Line 1. (Transcript displayed on TV screen.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You just testified -- MR. BAKER: It'd be there, when he was talking about "good-naturedly." Is that 59? Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, when she's going to be older, joking, like wearing tight fitting clothes, good-naturedly, like a grandma; that's what you were talking about Mr. Simpson in his conversation with you on the -- on June 12 after he had been to the recital, correct? A. That he said that, yes. Q. And then when you say good-naturedly, that's what he was acting like -- "A. Yes. "Was he laughing? "Yeah, joking and laughing." Q. Okay. Now, that was your testimony in June of 1994, about that tight dress incident, correct? A. Correct. MR. BAKER: Now, bring up the preliminary hearing, page 88, lines 23 to 28. You can put it on the Elmo if you want. (Transcript displayed on Elmo.) MR. BAKER: It starts, I think, at 13, 14 and 15, they were wearing tight outfits. Okay. Pull it up a little further so we go down to the end. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, he was kind of -- his tone was not angry, he was kind of matter of fact. That's what you told the jury under penalty of perjury when you had your preliminary hearing testimony, correct? THE COURT: I don't think there was any jury. MR. BAKER: I apologize. Preliminary hearing. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) That's what you told at the preliminary hearing? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Okay. Now, pull up, please, his depo transcript or trial transcript in the criminal trial, page 20337 or just 2000 is fine. MR. PETROCELLI: Can I have a page and line reference, Mr. Baker, please. MR. BAKER: I don't have a line reference. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, give me a chance -- what's the page. MR. BAKER: 2,000 -- 20,000, I'm sorry. Could you pull it up a little farther. Got a little technical glitch. Put that one on. (Indicating to Elmo.) THE COURT: What page is that? MR. P. BAKER: 20337. MR. BAKER: Lines 15 through 28. MR. PETROCELLI: What page is that? MR. BAKER: This is 20,337. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And now, you testified that he was upset, he made a point to say tight dresses. That, I mentioned before, that was your testimony at the criminal trial, correct? A. Yeah. I don't know what's before that, if it's about the comment about Sydney or not. I think he was more upset about -- Q. Well, as a matter of fact, you never mentioned the hardball comment about Sydney in the preliminary hearing or when your testimony was before the grand jury, did you, sir? MR. PETROCELLI: Object, Your Honor. If he has a prior inconsistent statement, he can show it to him, but we don't know what was asked, and I don't think -- MR. BAKER: I object -- THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You never mentioned one thing about Mr. Simpson and any purported comments from Nicole Brown Simpson about playing hardball with Sydney in the grand jury hearing or in the preliminary hearing, did you, sir? A. No. Q. And you had -- when you were talking about going in the front door, remember that, on the night of the 12th when O.J. Simpson was coming back with you from getting a hamburger -- do you remember that? A. Going into the -- towards the nook area? Q. Yeah. A. Yeah. Q. And you recall that on the 13th of June about 1:30 you had your statement taken by Officers Carr and Tippin, remember that? A. I remember those guys, yeah. Q. And that was within a couple hours of this incident of coming back from -- I mean it was within 15 hours or so of this incident of coming back from McDonald's, right? A. Yes. Q. And did you say the following? MR. BAKER: And I need a new number on this. THE CLERK: 2198. MR. LEONARD: 2198. MR. BAKER: Thank you. (The instrument herein described as Copy of Brian Kaelin's statement of 6/13/94 was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2198.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You did give your statement to Tippin and Carr June 13, 1994 at 1330 hours, that is 1:30 in the afternoon, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you were born on March 9, 1959 correct? A. Correct. Q. All right. And you were born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you told the officers at that time, that you drove to McDonald's and O.J. ate in the car, they ordered through the drive-through, ordered from -- it says MA male Hispanic, female Hispanic gave them the food; is that correct? Male Hispanic and female Hispanic? A. Pretty sure. MR. PETROCELLI: I object to the reading of this report. This is a hearsay document. It's not his report. He can show it to him to refresh his recollection, but he can't read a report to him prepared by somebody else. MR. BAKER: This is a report made in the ordinary course of business. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) O.J. ordered double meat hamburger, fries, no drink, witness ordered chicken sandwich meal, witness paid for food, O.J. ate while driving, they returned to O.J.'s house, witness entered through side of the house into his room, O.J. entered through front. Did you tell them that about 15 hours after you had gone to McDonald's, Mr. Kaelin? A. Best of my recollection, no. I think they're assuming that. Q. The rest of it you told them that's the only thing in the paragraph I read to you you didn't tell them, right. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Is there anything else that I read to you, sir, that you say you didn't tell the police? A. I don't know. Q. All right. Now, let's go back -- you, in 1992, I guess were in Aspen, Colorado where you first met Nicole Brown Simpson; is that correct? A. Correct. Q. And you met her with a friend of yours, and what's his name? A. Grant Cramer. Q. And Mr. Cramer and you went to a party and met her there, correct? A. Correct. Q. And subsequently, when you returned to Los Angeles, she invited you and Mr. Grant Cramer to a party at her house on Gretna Green, true? A. True. Q. And when you were at that house on Gretna Green you noticed the back house, did you not? A. Yes, I did. Q. And then you invited yourself to be a tenant in the back house to Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson, did you not? A. No. There was talk about it -- the guest house. Q. And in any event, sir, you -- you moved in almost immediately after that party into the back house at Gretna Green, correct? A. I think two weeks or so. Q. Okay. And you lived at that house from January of 1993 to January of 1994, correct? A. Correct. Q. And during that period of time, you met O.J. Simpson, did you not? A. Yes, I did. Q. And you became kind of a confidante of Nicole Brown Simpson, didn't you? MR. PETROCELLI: Beyond the scope, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. She told me things, yes. Q. And she told you things, for example, in February or March of 1993, you would have these little conversations with her, would you not? A. Yeah. I don't know the exact dates but we had conversations. Q. And she indicated to you by March of 1993 that she wanted to get back and remarry O.J. Simpson, didn't she? MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object as beyond the scope and can I have a continuing objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. It was back and forth. Q. She told you she wanted to remarry O.J. Simpson and the best times of her life was when she was with O.J., isn't that true? A. I think it was that good time and bad times. Q. Did she not tell you that the best times of her life were with O.J. Simpson; yes or no, sir? A. I mean the conversations -- there were times she said that, yes, sir. Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in terms of Mr. Simpson, he would come over in his Bronco and pick up the kids, would he not? A. At Gretna Green? Q. Yes. A. Yeah. Yes. Q. And you saw him do that, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you saw him go over to Gretna Green and pick up -- by the way, did it ever -- were you -- do you have any thoughts why they named the dog after you? A. No, I was confused. Q. Okay. Mr. Simpson would come over and -- A. What do you mean by that? No -- Q. Did you think that was a compliment -- well, never mind. Did Mr. Simpson come over and pick up the dog and take the dog and the kids at times? A. I don't remember offhand. Q. Well -- A. The kids for sure. Q. Pardon? A. The kids for sure. Q. And he would -- while you lived at Rockingham, you saw Chachi over at Rockingham on occasion as well as Kato, the dog, at Rockingham? A. I seen Kato there maybe once or twice the entire time. THE COURT: Mr. Baker, come back at 1:30. Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the case, don't form or express any opinions. Media in the audience, you're ordered not to approach this witness until this witness has completed his testimony. This witness is ordered not to speak to the media until this case -- testimony is completed. Mr. Baker, Mr. Petrocelli. THE BAILIFF: Judge is still on the bench. Quiet, please. THE COURT: Rest of you leave. (A bench conference was held which was not reported.) (At 11:57 A.M. a recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.) SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1996 1:31 P.M. DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) THE COURT: You may resume. MR. BAKER: Thank you. BRIAN KAELIN, the witness on the stand at the time of the luncheon recess, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. BAKER: Q. Now, Mr. Kaelin, when we broke for lunch, we were talking about the time period when you still lived at Gretna Green, correct? A. Correct. Q. And when you -- when you were living there, you wanted Nicole and O.J. Simpson to reconcile, to get back together, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And you expressed that opinion to Mr. Simpson, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And that was your feeling the whole time that you lived at Gretna Green; that Mr. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson should reconcile and remarry, right? A. I said off and on that -- that if they couldn't get together, they should possibly separate for six months. I mentioned that a few times. If it doesn't work after that, divorce, but if it does work, get back together. Q. Now, you were present at the dispute that took place on October 25, 1993, at least for part of it, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you had Mr. Simpson with you in the back house where you resided, true? A. For part of it, right. Q. And he never, obviously, threatened you or anyone else during that period of time, did he? A. No. There was myself back there and the police, I guess, in the guest house back there. Q. For part of the time before -- before the police got there, you were with him by yourself, correct? A. Never in the guest house, but outside. Q. All right. And he never threatened anyone, did he, with phys -- anything physical, did he, sir? A. There was no physical harm. Q. Now, towards the end of December of 1993, you were told by Nicole that you would have to move out and find your own place, correct? A. Say it again. Q. In December of 1993, you were told by Nicole, or you were -- you had conversations and you knew you had to move out of the back house of Gretna Green, correct? A. On and off. It was one week yes, one week no. Q. And you had first thought you were going to be able to move into Bundy, true? A. Yes. Q. And you had a conversation with O.J. Simpson about whether or not you should move into Bundy, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And that conversation went to the issue of whether or not he felt it would be good for the kids to have a young man of your age living with his ex-wife and his children, true? A. Inside the same house, correct. Q. And before January of 1994, in the year that you lived at 325 South Gretna Green, you paid some rent to Nicole; at other times, you took kind of credit for babysitting and that sort of thing, didn't you? A. For babysitting, yes. Q. And your basic rent was basically in the neighborhood of four, five hundred a month, correct? A. Correct. Q. And O.J. Simpson indicated to you that since he didn't want you to be living in the house with his ex-wife and his children, that you could live in the guest house at Rockingham, correct? A. Correct. Q. And he wouldn't charge you any rent, true? A. True. Q. And so you were aware, before you ever moved into the house at -- the guest house at 360 North Rockingham, that Nicole Brown Simpson did not want you to live there; isn't that true? A. She told me to -- she had a conversation with O.J. about it. Q. You were aware before you ever moved into 360 North Rockingham, that Nicole Brown Simpson did not want you to move into the guest house at O.J.'s house, true? A. I don't think it's true. Q. All right. Let me go back and ask you a couple of things. A. Okay. Q. In your -- from December of 1992, when you first met Nicole, she had introduced you, obviously, to O.J. Simpson, correct? A. At one point, yes. Q. She had introduced you to Marcus Allen, correct? A. Correct. Q. You had gone on a date with Nicole, Marcus and a friend of yours, had you not? A. Correct. Q. You had actually -- I think you indicated in examination by Mr. Petrocelli, you never socialized with O.J. You and your kids -- you and your son actually went out with O.J. and his kids, did you not? A. My daughter. Q. Daughter. I'm sorry. A. With Sydney and Justin, yes. Q. So you did at least socialize at some time with him before June 12, 1994? A. At one time, yes. Q. Relative to the issue, sir, of you moving into 360 North Rockingham, you -- MR. BAKER: Would you pull that up on the Elmo. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You were certainly aware that Nicole had requested you not to move into the guest house; yes or no? A. Yes and no. Yes and no. It was mixed. I think -- can I explain? Q. Sure. Go ahead. A. There was a point where she said, he's -- he manipulated you. He got you to go to his house. Q. That was before -- that was after you moved in, was it not? A. That was during that January when I moved in. Q. But you were aware that if you moved in, the relationship that Nicole Brown Simpson and you had would certainly decline, correct? A. I didn't know it would decline, but it did decline, yes. Q. As a matter of fact, you knew it was going to decline, and you forsook Nicole Brown Simpson for $500 a month rent? A. No. MR. BAKER: Pull that up. MR. PETROCELLI: I would like page references before he starts. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: 496, lines 7 through 9. No. Wait till he's had a chance to look at it. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Thanks. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you testified: Question: "And when you went to Mr. Simpson's house, you didn't have to pay rent at all, true? "A. Yes." "So it was a better deal and you forsook Ms. Simpson for $500 a month, right?" And your answer was yes; isn't that true sir? A. That's what I say there, yes. Q. That is true; you forsook Nicole Brown Simpson for $500 a month, after she had met you in Aspen and given you a place to live for basically one year, true? A. I guess I didn't interpret the "forsook" for that -- the negative connotation; but yes, I lived at O.J.'s for free. Q. And Nicole wouldn't come over if you were at O.J.'s correct? A. No, she came by. Q. And asked you to leave, for example, if in fact the kids were going to swim; isn't that true? A. Sometimes, yes. Q. Sometimes? Every time; isn't that correct? A. Not if my daughter was there. Q. Now, you and Nicole never were friends after you moved into O.J.'s house on January -- first week of January of 1994, correct? A. I think -- Q. Correct? A. -- I was still a friend. Q. And she wouldn't talk to you, true? A. Off and on, yes. Q. Now, after you got to Mr. Simpson's house and lived in his guest house (indicating to Exhibit 116 with overlay), you weren't great pals with O.J. Simpson, were you? A. Correct. Q. But you shared some conversation -- some conversations and some social discourse with him, did you not? A. Yes. Q. Now, in terms of where your room was over in the guest wing of the home -- A. Can I go down there? (Pointing to Exhibit 116 with overlay.) Q. Now, in the area where your place is -- your room was, that's about what, three feet below the pool decking area right adjacent to it, and these are steps that lead up to it, correct? A. Right. Cement here and steps. Q. All right. And then there is a -- an office that is right adjacent to the room that you used, correct? A. Correct. Q. And then this is a little hallway with steps, and there's a pool table in there, correct? A. Right, into the house. Q. Okay. Now, that -- that's a pretty substantial home in terms of construction, is it not, sir? A. Yes. Q. That house is -- Well, let me ask you this question. Mr. Petrocelli asked you a few questions concerning noise. Now, you couldn't hear what went on in O.J. Simpson's house when you were in your room, normally, could you? A. No. I -- It was -- I could hear a phone ring if it kept ringing and ringing, but I couldn't hear any verbal -- Q. The phone rang in the bar area? A. Correct. Q. In the bar area. And Mr. Simpson's home is in an area right in here where I've drawn this little -- it should be a semicircle, but it's not. MR. P. BAKER: The overlay will be 2199. (The instrument herein referred to as Overlay to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 116, diagram entitled 360 N. Rockingham Avenue, was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2199.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Were you in his house enough to remember where the bar area was? A. Um-hum. It was -- Q. And Mr. Simpson didn't ask your permission to go out and hit golf balls on his front lawn, did he? A. No. Q. And you normally, when you were there, stayed back in your room, did you not, sir? A. True. Q. And he didn't check with you if he was going to have people in or if he wasn't going to have people in, correct? A. Correct. Q. In other words, you had a separate life from Mr. Simpson when he was actually in residence at 360 North Rockingham; you would agree with that? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Simpson, when you moved in, was basically not in that house, almost virtually never, until in May of 1996; isn't that true? A. Pretty much so, yeah. Q. So, I mean, when Mr. Petrocelli asked you the first time he ever -- second time he ever came to your house -- he was in New York the first couple of months, and then he was in Puerto Rico, shooting a film, all the month of April; isn't that true? MR. PETROCELLI: Object, Your Honor, because it misstates the record. No evidence of that. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Isn't it true he was in Puerto Rico virtually the whole month of April, shooting a film. A. He was filming. I don't know -- I don't remember the exact dates. Q. You were aware he wasn't around that house when you first moved in; he was back in New York, working for NBC for the pro football season, correct? A. Correct. Q. So you didn't have many chances for any social intercourse with O.J. Simpson until May of 1996; isn't that true? MR. BLASIER: '94. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. '94. THE WITNESS: For some of it, yes. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms of your going in and out of the Rockingham address, you used to park over on Ashford Street, then you would come in -- the one gate was rigged so you could push it open, correct? A. Right. You got to move it yourself. Q. And that was the left gate as you faced the gate from Ashford? A. Right, the Ashford side. Q. Left gate as you face the gate from Ashford? A. Right. Q. Correct. Right? Left? A. You know, the gate on Ashford. Q. At any rate. (Laughter.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You would normally park your car in the area where my pen is, walk in, push the gate open, walk down the path, walk around, and not disturb anybody in the house, true? A. True. Q. Okay. Now, in terms of your relationship with Mr. Simpson, at times you'd come in and he's in the area where the bar is; that's a den area, is it not, family-room area? A. Where the bar area is? Q. Yeah. A. Well, where the TV is. Q. Okay. Now, on this wall where I'm putting an X, there is a television built into the wall, is there not? A. Yes. Then there's sofas over in here. THE WITNESS: I need a different marker. MR. PETROCELLI: I assume you're referring to the first floor, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. MR. PETROCELLI: First floor, right. MR. BAKER: I am. I am. Thank you. (Mr. Baker marks on overlay, Defendants' Exhibit 2199.) Q. Would it be accurate to say there are sofas that go like this, or cocktail table or some table in the middle? A. Right. Q. Then there are chairs that go around the bar area, true? A. True. Q. And then as you go, there's a dining room behind here, and then a kitchen goes all the way here, and -- well, I can't draw it very well. A. Somewhat, right. Q. Okay. I'm not very good at this. In any event, sir, you would, at times, come in and he'd be sitting there on the sofa, watching television, correct? A. Yes. Q. And you had some interchange with him during the times that he was doing that, true? A. If he called me in, yes. Q. And now, you had met Marcus Allen, in fact, gone out on a social engagement with him? A. Once, right. Q. And O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Marcus Allen, was he. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Lack of foundation; no personal knowledge. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You had a conversation with O.J. Simpson about Marcus Allen, and he indicated to you he didn't mind Nicole doing whatever Nicole did with Marcus Allen; isn't that true? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Relative to my client saying that to him? THE COURT: Yeah, self-serving hearsay. MR. BAKER: It's a leading question, Your Honor but it's an admission. THE COURT: It's an admission if it's offered by an adverse party. It's a self-serving admission when offered by your own side. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) In any event, you never heard Mr. Simpson indicate that he was jealous of anything Nicole did; isn't that true. MR. PETROCELLI: Same objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, in May of 1994, you became aware -- well, strike that. Did you ever become aware that Mr. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson had ceased their reconciliation period? A. At some point, yes. Q. That was in May of 1994, was it not? A. I think -- I think so. Q. You learned that from conversations you had with O.J. Simpson, true? A. I think it was O.J. Simpson and Cora Fischman. Q. And Mr. Simpson was not mad, upset, or distraught about that when he told you, was he? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Hearsay. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I -- I don't know. I can't answer that. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, have you ever testified before that Mr. Simpson was not jealous about Nicole Brown Simpson? A. If you'd show me -- Q. Do you have a recollection of ever testifying before that he was not jealous, sir? A. I think I said possibly. It was off and on. They were together and not together. Q. Now, in terms of May of 1994, you were aware that O.J. Simpson, after they had broken up, went over and took care of Nicole, correct, when she was ill? A. Correct. Q. And he didn't -- through any conversations you had with him, he didn't voice any animosity towards Nicole Brown Simpson, did he, sir? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Self-serving hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Can you pull up 515, lines 2 -- MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: 515 of his depo. MR. PETROCELLI: Deposition, okay. What line, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: It's going to start on 512. (Deposition transcript displayed on TV screen.) THE WITNESS: This is from? MR. BAKER: Your deposition. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object on hearsay grounds, Your Honor, for this testimony. MR. BAKER: 512, lines 24 through 13 of 513, Phil. MR. PETROCELLI: It's also irrelevant. THE COURT: What line? MR. BAKER: 512 through line 16 -- through 513, line 13. THE COURT: 16 starts in the middle of a sentence. So if he's -- MR. PETROCELLI: That's what I have, too. What's the question, the first question, Mr. Baker? Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you testify in the grand jury? MR. PETROCELLI: That's a different reference. That's 512, line 16, Your Honor. THE COURT: Line 16 starts with that. MR. BAKER: Let me read from the deposition. MR. PETROCELLI: Object to this; he can't just read from the depositions. It's got to be a foundation for it, Your Honor. There has to be a prior inconsistent statement; otherwise, it's hearsay. THE COURT: What's the question preceding this? Okay. Objection sustained. There's no question that was asked that is being refreshed or impeached. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Mr. Kaelin? A. Yes? Q. Your state of mind, when you testified before the grand jury in June of 1994, was that O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson dating -- MR. PETROCELLI: Object. MR. BAKER: -- correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Object. His state of mind is irrelevant. There's no basis to read in prior testimony. It's hearsay. It's irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: On what ground, Your Honor? THE COURT: What does this witness's state of mind have to do with anything? Doesn't have anything . . . MR. BAKER: Has to do with this purported motive -- THE COURT: Mr. Kaelin has no motive -- MR. BAKER: -- purported motive of my client, Your Honor. And this man was around him and testified to it. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think it has anything to do with Mr. Simpson's conduct, his state of mind, Your Honor. Mr. Baker objected in my examination -- MR. BAKER: I'd like to be heard. THE COURT: I'm going to overrule it. You offered evidence as to his state of mind, and I'll permit examination at this point. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, you had communication with Nicole Brown Simpson throughout the year of 1993, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you had some communication with O.J. Simpson in 1994, correct? A. Correct. Q. And your state of mind -- and you testified to the grand jury in June of 1994, within two weeks of these murders, that O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson dating Marcus Allen or anybody else; isn't that true? MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object on relevance grounds, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I didn't know anything that was going on between the two. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) I didn't ask you what you knew, sir; I asked you what you testified to. A. I -- I -- if I could see it -- I don't remember. Q. All right. MR. BAKER: May I now read the -- THE COURT: You may. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) (Reading:) "Q. Did you testify at the grand jury proceeding that O.J. Simpson didn't care whether or not Nicole Brown Simpson was dating or not? "A. Yes. "Q. And did you think that was a sign of jealousy or lack of jealousy? "A. I don't know. I didn't know in someone's mind. "Q. Did you testify at the preliminary hearing that O.J. Simpson didn't care whether Nicole Brown Simpson dated anybody, including Marcus Allen? "A. Yes. That was going on. I mean, they were dating at both ends, and it seemed like it was okay for them to date. "Q. And it certainly didn't bother O.J., did it? " MR. PETROCELLI: Object. MR. BAKER: "Objection." "Q. As far as you are aware, Mr. Kaelin? "A. Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Same objection. BY MR. BAKER: (Reading:) "Q. It did or did not bother O.J. Simpson? "A. It didn't." Now, that's what you testified to in your deposition, is it not, sir? A. Yes. Q. And I take it you were under penalty of perjury in that testimony as to your truthful opinion at that time, correct? A. My opinion, yes. Q. And I take it that was your opinion when you testified at the grand jury, in the preliminary hearing, true? A. True. Q. All right. Now, in terms of your living at the house, and in terms of your access to that house, now, you didn't have a key to that house, did you? A. No. Q. You didn't have the alarm code, did you? A. No. Q. You didn't have access to the interior of that house unless you were invited in, correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, you were not invited into that house in 1994 except for how many times? A. In 1994? Q. Yeah. A. When I was living there? Q. Yes, sir. A. I don't know. Q. Less than five? A. Five to seven. I can't give you an exact number. Q. And during the time that you were living there, did Mr. Simpson ever invite you to go upstairs? A. I think once. Q. Look around to see what was up there? A. I think once. Q. And other than that, you weren't in that house; isn't that true, sir? A. Other than those -- those times? Q. Yes. A. Correct. Q. Now, in terms of Mr. Simpson's home, you had become aware from just having the kids over and playing hide and seek with your daughter and Mr. Simpson's kids, that there was really no way out around the east side of the guest quarters, correct? A. Correct. I mean, you could get by. Q. You'd have to jump? A. Yeah, or -- jump or crawl; I don't know which one. Q. And this air conditioner that is -- that's -- that stuck out in your room, that was through the wall and stuck out about chest height, did it not? A. I think that's about right. Q. And if it -- that was the lower portion. And the upper portion would be about where my nose is, correct? A. Approximately, yeah. Q. And the walls to that house were -- of the guest quarters were, in your opinion, very sturdily built, true? MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: You know, I don't know what it was in the back, if it was cement or -- I don't know what it's called. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you ever take your fist and hit that wall behind that bed at all, sir? A. No. Q. Did you ever -- let me ask you: In terms of your ingress and egress -- and let's go to June 11, 1994, now, by June 11, 1994, you say you were watching television with O.J. Simpson, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you mentioned something about "The World Of Garp?" A. Correct. Q. Now, you first mentioned that in an interview that you did with Mark Elliott on December 27, 1994, some six or so months after the killings, true? A. I guess. Q. You had never mentioned that in any conversations you had with Mr. Shapiro, with any of the D.A.'s at the grand jury or at the preliminary hearing; isn't that true? A. I guess so. I was never asked anything. Q. Well, when you were having this interview with Mark Elliott, this is when you were contemplating putting out a book and making a few bucks relative to your involvement in the O.J. Simpson matter; isn't that true? A. To possibly get a book, right. Q. And in fact, you'd even signed a contract before you came up with this "World of Garp" story; that had never surfaced in any of the prior interviews; isn't that correct, sir? A. No, I didn't sign any contract. Q. You had negotiated a contract but didn't sign it? A. With Mark Elliott. Q. And this was really you, in an attempt testimony of that particular testimony about the World of Garp, attempting to cash in on your 15 minutes of fame, so to speak, wasn't it, sir? A. No. Q. Let me ask you: You had heard about this incident with this gentleman named Keith before you ever moved into O.J. Simpson's house, had you not? A. I don't believe so. I -- it was part of the 911 call, and I didn't make sense of it at that time. Q. You had never heard about that from either the October 25 incident or anything else; that went on at 325 South Gretna Green, correct? A. What I can remember, no. Q. And you heard O.J. Simpson -- and you were standing next to him with the police there, when they were talking about that incident on October 25, 1993; isn't that true, sir? MR. PETROCELLI: Question is vague as to what incident. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) The incident of oral sex in the living room of 325 South Gretna Green, with Ms. Simpson and this gentleman named Keith, correct? A. The police did come by. And when they came to my room, I sort of excused myself, and I don't remember that happening. I mean, it was dialogue with the police, but I -- Q. You tuned out of it? A. It was -- I don't remember completely the incident. But I know they came to my room and they asked who I was. And he said, he's okay, and let them talk. And I went out towards the pool area. Q. Now, on June 11, you related some conversations you had with Mr. Simpson, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you talked about this incident in the movie, "The World According To Garp," correct? A. Yes. Q. And you have a clear recollection of that, right? A. Of him telling me that story, yes. Q. And that was kind of sensational, if you were going to do a book, to put that in a book, something about oral sex. You thought that when you gave the interview to Mark Elliott, didn't you? A. No, sir. Q. Now, by the time you gave the interview to Mark Elliott, how many TV shows had you been on? A. How many television shows? I don't know. You mean news shows? Q. Anything where you agreed to go on the show. A. What was the date you're talking about? Q. It was December 27, 1994. A. I don't think many. I don't know. If you can tell me . . . Q. You have no recollection, right? A. If you can show me, I would definitely have a recollection. Q. You have no recollection in your own mind as to how many television shows you had appeared on between the time of the murders and the time you gave this interview to Mark Elliott, in preparation of selling a book? A. No. Q. How many television shows have you been on to date, from the time of the murders to the present time? A. I don't know the exact number. Q. Now, in terms of the conversation you say you had with Mr. Simpson on the 11th -- A. Um-hum. Q. -- what you can remember now is that one about "The World According To Garp" and the related incident, and a conversation about Paula Barbieri; and that's all, correct? A. At that time on that Saturday? Q. Yeah. A. I think so. Q. Isn't it true -- isn't it true, Mr. Kaelin, that when Mr. Simpson was talking about a white picket fence, he was talking about what Ms. Barbieri wanted, as contrasted to him? A. No; that's what he wanted. Q. Isn't it true she wanted a white picket fence and kids, and Mr. Simpson had said he had two families and he didn't desire anymore kids, and that's why he thought maybe Paula wasn't the one for him? Isn't that the conversation you had? A. He said he wanted the white picket fence, and he also mentioned a conversation that, yes, he didn't want anymore kids. Q. Now, do you have any other memories of any conversation with him on June 11, 1994? A. There was -- he was going to some Israeli dinner. I remember that being part of the conversation. Q. What did he tell you about that? A. It was a black-tie event. Q. What did he tell you about that? A. That he didn't really want to go to it. Q. That's all he said about it? A. It was a charity event. Q. You watched a playoff game on -- the playoff of the NBA basketball, did you not? A. Yes, in my room. Q. You watched part of it with him, didn't you? A. I don't remember if I did. Q. You had a conversation about basketball, didn't you? A. Yes. I think I told him what the score of the game -- what it was. Q. And then you didn't see him after you left his place until 2 o'clock the next morning -- the next afternoon, correct? A. Approximately. Q. And that wasn't unusual, was it? I mean, he didn't communicate with him -- you didn't communicate with him? A. Correct. Q. And so the next morning at 2:00 -- or afternoon, rather, at approximately 2 o'clock in the afternoon, you were invited into his kitchen nook, correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, did you seek an invitation into his kitchen nook? A. No. Q. Mr. Simpson was sitting in his kitchen nook when you were invited in? A. Yes. Q. Now, his kitchen nook is in the area -- well, let's just put a "K" and an "N" where I put the "K" and the "N" -- correct? A. Yes. Q. And there's a television set on the south wall, is there not? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Simpson was watching television when he invited you in? A. I think it was on. I'm not 100 percent positive. I think the TV was on. Q. And you came in your usual method, through the driveway and out the pathway, correct? A. Correct. Q. And there's no way Mr. Simpson could have seen you; isn't that true? A. No. I think he did see me, because when you come in, if I saw the TV on in that area, I could have walked by and seen who it was. He would have said "Kato," and invited me in. Q. And so you had no business going up to the kitchen nook, otherwise, to try to get a kitchen -- to get into Mr. Simpson's house, to try to have a chat with him; isn't that true? A. To say hi. Q. Now, after you got in the kitchen nook at approximately 2 o'clock in the afternoon, was there another white picket fence conversation? A. I believe so, yes. Q. So we had two days of white picket fences, right? A. Right. The other white picket fence was to Traci Adell. Q. Now, you had -- by the time that you had your deposition taken in 1996, you had testified at the preliminary hearing, you'd given an interview to the D.A., you testified at the grand jury, you'd been on Larry King Live, you'd been on innumerable television shows, correct? A. Correct. Q. And not one time -- not one time did you ever mention one word about the IRS until you had spent eight and a half hours with Mr. Petrocelli; isn't that true, sir? A. I don't know if I said it before that or not. Q. And isn't it true that you never mentioned one thing about this alleged hardball with Sydney until you spent eight and a half hours with Mr. Petrocelli? A. I don't believe so. I think I said it before that. Q. And isn't it also true that you never mentioned one thing about the thumping at 10:50? You spent at least eight and a half hours with Mr. Petrocelli? A. No. I said that in my first interview. Q. You said that in your first interview, when you -- when you thought you got back from McDonald's at 10 o'clock, not 9:37; isn't that true? A. I think in all my interviews, I've always had an approximate of time. Q. Isn't it true when you said -- the only time you ever said 10:50, other than in this courtroom, is when you were being interviewed by Mr. Shapiro, and you said 10:50, and you believed that you got back from McDonald's at 10 o'clock? True? A. I don't think so. I think, Mr. Baker, what it was, I always had -- I had no time on me; I didn't have a watch; I wasn't keeping time. So it was always approximate when I said that. Q. We'll get back to that. A. Okay. Q. In terms of your conversation on the afternoon of the 12th with Mr. Simpson, how long did you talk to him? A. My first conversation? Maybe a half-hour. I can't give you an approximate amount of time again. Q. And the only thing you remember is this purported IRS and Sydney hardball, or Sydney hardball was afterwards? A. I remember the calendar section I was reading; that he was making phone calls. Q. The only thing that you remember from the afternoon conversation with O.J. Simpson was this issue about the IRS that you have now come to testify to, correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection to -- now it's argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) The only thing you can recall is mentioning something about the IRS that Mr. Simpson had allegedly mentioned to you on June 12, 1994, that you have not mentioned before your deposition, correct? A. I said it during that -- he said it during that afternoon, correct. Q. And by the way, I take it, sir, that from all of the time that you've testified, and from all of the media reports relative to this, the facts surrounding the murders and your involvement therein, that you have a clear recollection of everything you did on June 12 as it relates to these cases, true? A. No, not everything. Q. And, in fact, your memory is somewhat confused as to what you know and what you lived and what you saw on television; isn't that true? A. I did see media reports. Q. In terms of your then next encounter with Mr. Simpson, it was after Mr. Simpson had returned from the recital, correct? A. Correct. Q. And by the way, Mr. Simpson's demeanor that whole day is related to -- as near as you could tell, was nothing unusual at all; isn't that true? A. I -- MR. PETROCELLI: You mean a day, time? Q. (BY MR. BAKER) At any time on June 12, 1994, Mr. Simpson's demeanor was not unusual, other than the fact that he was tired; isn't that true? A. He was tired, yes. Q. He was not angry; he was not frustrated; he was not, in any way that you could see, anything other than a little tired and normal, correct? A. Well, you mean during conversations -- Q. Correct. A. Certain parts he'd be upset, but mostly he was tired because he was talking about his red eye. Q. And he told you on June 12, 1994, when you were in his house, that he was going to catch a red eye and go to Chicago, didn't he? A. He was going to Chicago on a red eye, yes.