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REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT NOVEMBER 25, 1996 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHARON RUFO, ET AL., N/A, PLAINTIFFS, VS. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ET AL., DEFENDANTS. SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA MONDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 1966 8:50 A.M. DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (The jurors resumed their respective seats.) THE COURT: Morning. JURORS: Morning Your Honor. THE COURT: You may proceed. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. THE CLERK: You are still under oath. Would you please state your name again for the record. THE WITNESS: Orenthal James Simpson. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, the witness on the stand at the time of adjournment on Friday, November 22, 1996, having been previously duly sworn, was examined further as follows: MR. PETROCELLI: Morning, ladies and gentlemen. JURORS: Morning. DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q. On Friday, we were talking about your activities on June 12, 1994. I'd like to return to that, okay, sir? Before you went to McDonald's with Mr. Kaelin, you tried calling Paula Barbieri repeatedly from your home telephone, true? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I may have. Yes. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And you called not from your cell phone, but from your home phone, inside your house at 753 Rockingham, trying to get in touch with her, correct? A. I may have. Q. You say you may have. What does that mean? Did you or didn't you? A. I don't recall doing it, but I do know that I put some calls in to Paula, yes. Q. And you called her again at 8:58 p.m. correct? A. I may have. Q. And you called her at 8:59 p.m., correct? A. I may have. Q. And you checked your messages a second time from your house, by calling your message manager. True or untrue? A. I never picked up a message from Paula that night, no. Q. You did check your messages at 6:50, and again at 8:55 p.m. to pick up messages from Paula. True or untrue? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I don't recall doing that, no. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you recall? Are you unsure now, sir, or -- A. I know I never picked up any messages from Paula. Q. You told Dr. Lenore Walker you picked up a message from Paula, didn't you? A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: Let me put up the board. This is? MR. FOSTER: 434. MR. PETROCELLI: Exhibit 434, which is a listing of your cell phone calls. (The instrument herein referred to as Board entitled Defendant's Cell Phone Calls for the Night of June 12, 1994, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 434.) MR. PETROCELLI: And I'll also put up this other exhibit. (Exhibit 2216 displayed, entitled Simpson Telephone Calls - June 12, 1994.) MR. PETROCELLI: This is Exhibit 2216, which would show all the calls you made that are reflected on phone bills for June 12. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, you have this voice mail system on your cell phone; you call your cell phone, it call-forwards into your voice mail to pick up messages, true? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Okay. And you see Exhibit 434 shows that you called your message manager at 6:56 for five minutes to pick up a message. Do you see that, sir, on your cell phone record? A. I see -- I don't see where it says pick up message. I do see it's message manager. Q. You do see 6:56 message manager, true? A. Yes. Q. And you also see it again 8:55, message manager, true? A. Yes. Q. And CF stands for call forward, right, on your bill? A. I would assume so, yes. Q. And the reason those entries are on your bill is because you twice picked up messages from your house at Rockingham. True or untrue? A. That's untrue. Q. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Put up -- what is that exhibit? MR. FOSTER: 2217. THE COURT: 2217. (Exhibit 2217 displayed on TV screen.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, sir, I already showed you the entry for 1856. At 1856, which is 6:56, true? A. Yes. Q. You see the phone record there, 6:56 from your telephone number, 476-4619, Area Code 310, which was your phone number at that time, correct? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Okay. And at 2055 -- that would be 8:55 p.m., right, sir? A. I would assume so. Q. Shows another call from your home phone, and your cell phone indicates 8:55, message manager another minute. A. Yes, I see that. Q. Do you see that? A. Um-hum. Q. And by the way, do you also see that you called at 8:58 and 8:59, the number of Paula Barbieri, a 305 cell phone number. That was her cell phone number, right, from Palm Beach, Florida or wherever she lived, Panama Beach, or wherever it was? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. So you made all those phone calls at the time shown on these cell phone records, didn't you? A. I would assume so, yes. Q. You'd include picking up messages from Paula, true? A. That's incorrect. Q. And you told that to Dr. Lenore Walker, didn't you? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Incorrect. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did you not tell Dr. Lenore Walker, on February 25, 1995, the following: From her notes -- she was taking notes, correct? A. Yes. Q. You saw her taking notes, right? A. Yes. Q. And she was working for you at the time, right? A. I believe the defense, yes. Q. "Called Paula, not home. "Call forward on car phone message from Paula. Whole long message about golf. Don't see you. He's not sure if in Arizona or Las Vegas, or if angry with him. He listens to message. Kato goes by house." You told all of that to Dr. Lenore Walker, didn't you, sir? A. That's correct. Q. And you told Dr. Lenore Walker that you got a whole long message about golf from Paula Barbieri, true? A. That's untrue. Q. You also told Dr. Lenore Walker that just about that time, Kato walked by, true? A. I assume so. Q. And Kato walked by your house about 6:56 p.m. after you got back from the recital, true? A. I know after I was back from the recital, Kato came in. Q. In fact, you testified in this courtroom on Friday, that it was exactly at 6:56 that you were in the kitchen with Kato, and you just happened to remember that time exactly, didn't you? A. No, I didn't say exactly. I said about that time. It was about the time I saw Kato. Q. Now, you deny under oath, after looking at these cell phone records and hearing Dr. -- hearing from Dr. Lenore Walker's notes, that you did not pick up the message from Paula, a whole long message from Paula? You deny that? A. That's correct. MR. BAKER: I -- Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You deny that? A. I deny I didn't pick it up on that cell phone; that's correct. Q. Your story is that you -- MR. BAKER: I object to that. MR. PETROCELLI: -- you -- MR. BAKER: I object to anything calling "your story." THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Your story, sir, is that you -- well, by the way, back up for a second. You told the police, as we discussed Friday, that you picked up a message -- you picked up your messages, right? A. I believe so. Q. And at the time you told that to the police, hours after -- that was hours after Nicole's death, right? A. I assume so. Q. Before you had met with teams of lawyers and investigators and defense experts, right? A. That's correct. Q. And before you had reviewed cell phone records, right? A. Correct. Q. And you told the police that you picked up -- you said: "I checked my messages. She had left me a message that she wasn't there, that she had to leave town." And you were referring to the message that you picked up on your cell phone voice mail at 6:56, true? A. Untrue. Q. Now, your story, sir, told in your deposition earlier this year, is that, well, you did get a message from Paula, but it was when you called her phone machine and there was a message on there for anybody who would call her machine, right? A. Yes. Q. And just like when you call my house and I say we're not home right now, please leave a message, that sort of message, right? MR. BAKER: He wouldn't call your house. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) That sort of message? A. That's correct. Q. You want to tell this jury under oath, that when you called Paula's machine, the number anybody could call, there was a whole long message about you and about golf and about her being unhappy and so forth. Is that the story? MR. BAKER: Compound. A. That's -- that's incorrect. Q. There was a whole long message on your (sic) machine directed to you; is that the story? A. I believe it was directed more to me, but it wasn't about golf, no. Q. But anybody could listen to it, right? A. Yes. Q. And it's all about you, right? A. No, it was about her being out of town. Q. So when Lenore Walker wrote in her notes, a whole long message about golf, don't -- you say it's all false, right? A. That's -- Q. False? A. Yes, it's false, yes. Q. Is it true that you and Paula had been fighting a bit about golf, sore subject? That's true, right? A. Not then, no. That's incorrect. Q. You fought in Palm Springs about it, didn't you? Mr. Baker pointed that out in her deposition? A. Previously, Paula would get upset when I went and played a lot of golf, yes. Q. Including the morning of June 12? A. No. Q. You didn't spend the night together and you're going to play golf in the morning; sore subject, true? MR. BAKER: I don't know what question you want him to answer; they're all compound, argumentative. I wish he would ask one question and allow him to answer. THE COURT: Ask one please. THE WITNESS: Can you reask it. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) The subject of golf was a sore one at that point in time, the last three weeks of Nicole's life; true or untrue? A. I can't answer that true or untrue. When Paula, often -- me playing golf was a problem, but it was not a conversation either her or I had that weekend. Q. Now, the truth of the matter, sir, is that you were desperate to get in touch with Paula because she had left you, true? A. False. Q. And you were trying all day to get in touch with her, call after call, after call, as these records show, true? A. That's not necessarily true, no. Q. And there are more calls, local calls not reflected on these records, that you made to her, trying to get in touch with her all day, true? A. I wouldn't know. I tried her in my car and I tried her a few times from my house. Q. And the reason you were trying to get in touch with her is because you were feeling alone on that evening, weren't you, sir? A. That's not true. Q. You told that to Tom Lange on the 17th of June, from your (sic) Bronco, that you were feeling so alone, didn't you? A. That's not true. Q. Well, we'll get to that. And you blamed Nicole for feeling alone, sir, didn't you? A. No. Q. You blamed Nicole because your relationship with Nicole was over, true? MR. BAKER: There's no foundation. A. It had been over for a month. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And had been over for how long? A. About a month. Q. About three weeks, to be exact, as of the 12th of June, true? A. It officially -- when I looked at a calendar later on, it was Mother's Day. Q. About three weeks to the day, to June 12, not about a month; about three weeks, true? A. I know when we officially split was the 12th -- the 10th or the 12th. Q. You told the police on June 13, that you and Nicole split three weeks before June 13, which is about May 22, true? A. If I said -- I did say that, but I was just approximating. Q. You did say three weeks, right? A. Yes. Q. You said it more than once, didn't you? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And three weeks from June 13 does -- is not May 10, but May 22, correct? A. I would assume about that, 21 days. Q. And finally, you blamed Nicole because your relationship with Paula was now all messed up, true? A. I can't answer that. You say "now all messed up," which I don't understand. Q. Evening of June 12, 9 o'clock p.m. to be exact, you blamed Paula because -- you blamed Nicole because your relationship with Paula was over? A. No, I didn't believe that. Q. You blame Nicole for your problems with Paula? A. Nicole was a problem with Paula. Q. Now, we've already talked about going to McDonald's, not going to get back into that, except to ask you this: When you went out to McDonald's, from your house, you went out the front door and you set the alarm, didn't you? A. I thought I did, even though I heard Kato. I thought I did, yes. Q. And you told that to Lenore Walker on February 25, 1995, that you went out the front door of your house and you set the alarm to your house, true? A. I thought I did. Q. Okay. Now, and by the way, when you went to Kato's room that night to go out and get a burger, your state of mind at that time was, you were going to go out alone, not with him, right? A. Yes. Q. And you made a point of telling him you were going out, right? A. I told him why I needed change, yes. Q. You told him you were going out to get a burger, right? A. Yes. Q. And you never once before this point in time go to Kato Kaelin's room to tell him you were going anywhere, true? A. And I didn't that night. That was not my purpose. Q. But you never went to Kato's room on any other occasion and told him you were going anywhere, true? A. True. Q. This was the very first time in your life you went to Kaelin's room and said I'm going to get a burger? A. True. Q. Now, when you got back from McDonald's, you made a call, another call, your final call to Paula Barbieri at 10:03 p.m., true? A. That's correct. Q. And you're leaving her messages in a number of those calls, aren't you? A. I think I may have left her -- I'm pretty sure I left her one early on and then I believe I might have left her one after. I may have. I know if I did it wouldn't have been more than a couple messages, maybe once for -- once after the recital, and I know I did at 10. Q. Page 8, 9, 12 through 13. I want to talk about this 10:03 time period now. A. Yes. Q. When you spoke to the police detectives on June 13, hours after Nicole's murder, you told the police detectives that you made a phone call to Paula driving over to her house in your Bronco, from your cell phone. True? A. I don't think that was the 10:03 call. I believe that we were talking about earlier. Q. Excuse me, sir. Answer this question: When you spoke to the police on June 13, hours after Nicole's death -- A. Yes. Q. -- you told the police that you, after the recital -- A. Okay. Q. -- made a phone call while driving over to Paula's looking for her, from your Bronco, the car you'd rather drive than any other car, using your cell phone, true? A. I don't think I said from my Bronco, but I did imply that I was driving to Paula's right after the recital and I made a call to Paula. Q. You implied it or you said it? A. I don't recall but I know it was implied. Q. Let me read it to you. Page 8. (Reading.) "Q. Where did you go from there, the recital?" MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to skip at the judge's request the "ums" and "greats." Mr. Baker, I'm at page 8. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.) "Where did you go from there, O.J.? "Home. Home for a while and got in my car for a while, tried to find my girlfriend for a while. Came back to the house." Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Again, page 9. (Reading.) "After the recital you're referring to? "I came home, and then I called Paula as I was going to her house and Paula wasn't home." MR. PETROCELLI: Page 12 and 13. MR. BAKER: Well, that -- read the questions and the answers. MR. PETROCELLI: I was trying to shorten it up. If you want me to read the questions and answers, I'll be happy to, Mr. Baker. I have no problem with that. Okay. Let's start at page 12. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.) "QUESTION" -- MR. BAKER: Can you give me a line, please. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. We'll start it at line 23, referring to did he take it to the recital, meaning the Bronco. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.) "Did you take it to the recital? "A. No. "Q. What time was the recital? "A. Over at about 6:30. Like I said, I came home, I got in my car, I was going to see my girlfriend, I was calling her and she wasn't around. "Q. So you drove the -- "A. Bronco. "Q. You got home in the Rolls, in the Rolls -- "Yeah. "Q. And then you got in the Bronco? "A. Bronco, 'cause my phone was in the Bronco. "Okay. "A. And cause it's -- the Bronco is -- the Bronco is what I drive. "Yeah. You know, I drive -- rather drive it than any other car. And as I was going over there I called her a couple of times, and she wasn't there and that she had left a message. And then I checked my messages, she had left me a message that she wasn't there, that she had to leave town. Then I came back and ended up sitting with Kato." Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You told the police you drove to Paula's after the recital, in your Bronco, and made a call to her from your cell phone, true or untrue? A. True. Q. The only time after the recital that you have any cell phone calls to Paula is at what time, looking at your cell phone records? A. 10:03. Q. So, sir, you were in your Bronco calling Paula at 10:03, just like you told the police, true? A. That's incorrect. Q. Oh, so you lied to the police? A. No. Q. You have a different story now. It's different now, isn't it? A. I think it's more accurate now. Q. It's different, isn't it? A. Yes. Q. It's -- now you say you didn't get in the Bronco, and drive to Paula's, and call her from the phone, true? A. That's true. Q. That's what you now say, true? A. That's true. Q. Okay. And you now say that of course after meeting with teams of lawyers and investigators and defense experts and seeing that there are cell phone records at 10:03 putting you in the Bronco, true? A. True. Q. And by the way, at the time you gave your statement to the police, you were not familiar with cell phone records, were you? A. I don't understand what you mean. Q. Well, you testified in your deposition, line -- at page 2144, that the cell phone bills go to the office and are paid by someone there, meaning Cathy Randa? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. But I understand cell phone records. Q. Now you do? A. I always have. Q. You also told the police, sir -- well, withdrawn. So your story now, then, is that you didn't make this call from the Bronco, right? A. That's correct. MR. BAKER: Objection, argumentative. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And your story -- MR. BAKER: I object to the form of the question. It's argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And your story now, sir, is that, in fact, your cell phone wasn't even in the Bronco as at 10:03, right? A. That's correct. Q. You're now saying that you took it out of the Bronco hours before? A. That's correct. Q. Let me read what you told to the police about that subject. One second so I can get the page number for your counsel. Here it is. Page 15, at line 22. (Reading.) "Q. "Do you recall bleeding at all in your truck -- in the Bronco? "A. I recall bleeding at my house and then I went to the Bronco. The last thing I did before I left, when I was rushing, was went and got my phone out of the Bronco." Remember saying that to the police? A. I don't think that's complete. (Counsel hands document to witness.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you remember saying that to the police, yes or no? A. I remember saying that and more to the police. Q. You think this transcript is wrong, is that what you're saying? A. I know it is. Q. Had no problem with it on Friday, did you? MR. BAKER: That's argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You told the police that the last thing you did, sir, was you, before leaving for the airport, went out and got your cell phone from the Bronco, because it was in the Bronco, at 11 o'clock, true? A. That's incorrect. Q. Now you're saying the police statement is wrong because you don't want the phone to be in the Bronco at 11 o'clock, true? MR. BAKER: That's argumentative. A. It wasn't in the Bronco. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You don't want it to be there because if it was there at 11, it was there at 10, and if it's there at 10, you're in your Bronco and you're not in your home, and it destroys your alibi? MR. BAKER: All that is alibi. It's great final argument and great sound bites, Your Honor, but it's not a proper question. MR. PETROCELLI: No speaking objections. MR. BAKER: I don't take legal advice from any adversaries. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What is your story now? By the way, on this, you didn't get the cell phone when you were leaving, you got what? MR. BAKER: Your Honor, this "what your story now" is so argumentative and I object to it. THE COURT: Overruled. A. My cell phone comes with attachments, extra batteries, there's a little case that I carry it in when I'm -- with an extra battery, and there's a plug-in you can use in any automobile. I believe if you got the correct -- if you listen to the tape, and not your -- that's my answer. That's my answer. And I think I implied that when I said that to the police. You just don't have it on your transcript. Q. Sir, I asked you on Friday if what was recorded on the tape was accurate and you said it was? A. No. What was on the tape is accurate, but they don't have the whole thing. Q. Now you're saying you didn't get the cell phone when you were leaving for your one-day trip to Chicago, but you got cell phone accessories, right? A. Yes. Q. That's what you're saying? A. Yes. My cell phone comes in a package and I need the package when I travel. Q. So you specifically remember now, two and a half years later, that it wasn't -- the phone -- the phone wasn't in the Bronco at 10:03, right, you specifically remember that now, right? A. I don't -- I don't get the question. I remember that -- Q. You specifically remember your phone was not in the Bronco at 10:03, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you remember -- and you remember that it was accessories, and that's what you meant to tell the police, that you went out to get cell phone accessories for the one-day trip to Chicago, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Let me read what you said at page 16 of your police statement, line 22. I'll start at 16 just for some context. (Reading.) "Q. So did you do anything -- when did you put the band-aid on it? "A. Actually, I asked a girl this morning for it and she -- "And she got it? "Yeah. "Okay. "A. 'Cause last night I just put -- I mean when Kato -- When I was leaving he was saying something to me and I was rushing to get my phone and I put a little thing on it and it stopped." Q. Remember telling that to the police? A. I don't remember telling them, but I read the transcripts. MR. PETROCELLI: Put this on the Elmo, Steve. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me ask you about this. MR. PETROCELLI: Put that on the Elmo. (Transcript displayed on Elmo.) MR. PETROCELLI: I want to focus on this. Can you do a little better on that? No, no, no, I want to see the whole thing. Back, back. Okay. Right there. Move it over. Okay, can you see that? (indicating to TV screen.) THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. First of all, you're clear in your mind, sir, that the time frame you are talking about in giving this answer, about getting your phone, was at the very end of the night when you were leaving and Kato was talking to you, right? A. Correct. Q. And you told the police, I was rushing to get my phone and put a little thing on it, right? A. Correct. Q. And earlier you said the last thing you did when you were talking to the police was you got your phone out of the Bronco, right? A. That's what I said, yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, you can take it off. Q. You were calling Paula, driving in your Bronco to Bundy, calling Paula 'cause you were desperate and you were alone that night, true? A. Untrue. MR. BAKER: Argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Untrue. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You'd have no other reason for calling Paula at 10:03 p.m., you called her all day, true? MR. BAKER: Argumentative. Q. Did you not call Paula all day long starting about 2:12, with your phone records there? MR. BAKER: Argumentative, vague, ambiguous, asked and answered. A. I called -- THE COURT: Overruled. A. I called Paula a few times that day, yes. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And you knew that she was gone? A. No. Q. Right? A. Not really, no. Q. You told Lenore Walker that's Las Vegas or Arizona. I just read in her notes you told her that February 25, 1995? A. Among other things, yes. Q. So you knew Paula wasn't home? A. No. Q. You were desperately trying to get in touch with her, weren't you? A. I wouldn't have called if I didn't think she might have been around. Q. What your reason, your story, now, sir, is you were looking for a ride to the airport? A. That if she was still in town, that it was still not too late for her to take me to the airport. Q. You knew a limo had been arranged by your secretary, Cathy Randa, to be at your house at 10:45 like clockwork, like always, right? A. Yes. Q. So -- so now you say that you made the phone call standing from where, sir, on the cell phone? A. I was in my front yard near -- if you have a picture of my front yard -- near where my Bentley was parked. Q. Before I show you the front yard, how many phone calls did you make on your cellular phone all day on June 12, outside of your Bronco? A. This would have been the only one. Q. So every other time you used your cell phone that day, 2:12, 2:13, 2:18, 2:22, 2:23, 2:24, you're in the Bronco, right? A. One ride from the golf course in from the Bronco. Q. Where your cell phone was? A. Yes. Q. And it was still in the car in fact when you came home from the golf course? A. That's right. Q. It was still in your car when you were at the recital, weren't you? A. That's correct. Q. Yes. You remember when you say you took it out of the car, the phone out of the Bronco? A. Yes. Q. When do you say, between like 7:30 and 9, thereabouts? MR. BAKER: Argumentative -- A. Correct. MR. BAKER: -- when do you say. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. The only call you would like this jury to believe that you made from your cell phone not in the Bronco, but in your driveway, is at 10:03, right? MR. BAKER: Argumentative. A. That's correct. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Okay. So let's go to the story that you told in your deposition in this case. (Referring to Exhibit 116) Q. You said you pulled your Bronco in to get some stuff out of it, right? A. Yes. Q. And by the way, the first time you pulled it in, you just took out your golf clubs, right? A. My golf clubs, my cell phone, Q. Cell phone? Sure about that? A. Yes, that was about that time that I took it out. Q. Okay. And you didn't take out the cell phone accessories, did you? A. No, I didn't look for it. Q. Just looked for it -- it was right there in the passenger seat. A. Well, I didn't look for it. Q. What do you mean? It was right there in the passenger seat; how could you have missed it? A. I didn't look for it. Q. Okay. So you just get the phone out. And by the way, the phone was just by the passenger seat too, it was right there in between the two seats too, right? A. That's correct. Q. You took one, but not the cell phone accessories? A. That's correct. Q. You left the Windbreaker there too, that was over the console, right? A. That's incorrect. Q. Okay. You didn't take the Windbreaker out at this time, did you? A. No. Q. So you just took out the -- the phone and your clubs, right? A. That's correct. Q. And you went inside, did a little stuff, and you parked your car, and you claim you parked it on -- on Rockingham at this time, right? MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Prior to around 9 p.m. on Rockingham, right? A. That's correct. Q. You had to make a couple of other trips out to that car that night to get stuff, didn't you? A. I think I looked out there one other time. Q. Well, you looked there for a club, once, right? A. Yes. Q. And then you went out there to get your accessories, right? A. Yes. Q. And you're sore-legged, stiff that night, want to cut down your walking time, right? A. Yes. Q. That's why you took the short distance to the Bentley, because you didn't want to walk the distance to the Bronco, right? A. Not necessarily, no. Q. That's what you said on Friday; you were stiff-legged, that's why you took the Bentley? A. I took the closest car. Q. And you said you were stiff-legged. Do you want me to read it? MR. BAKER: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you find it? Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Said you were sore and stiff, right? A. I was. Q. Okay. A. All day. Q. All day. And you wanted to take the shortest car, right? A. I just took -- Q. Shortest distance? A. I just took the closest car when I came out of my house. Q. But you made a lot of trips to that Bronco that night, didn't you? A. I believe two. Q. And you had to walk out and get it, too, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, when you got the phone, you said you put it in your kitchen, right? A. Somewhere in my kitchen. Q. Okay. Now -- A. Where I normally put it. Q. It's around 10 o'clock, it's after McDonald's, and you're getting closer to the 10:03 phone call. Your story is you go in your garage, passing some time, pick up a club or two, open up the garage door, and are going to go out to swing some golf balls, right? A. No, that wasn't my purpose at all. Q. That's what you did, right? A. Among the things I did. I hit four or five balls, yes. Q. Yeah, and as you were going out to the garage to do this and to look for clubs and other things, you realize you left your phone in the kitchen, right? A. I don't think it worked that way. As I said, I wasn't clear if I picked it up before I went out, or either I came back in and picked it up when I came out of the house, I had my cell phone with me. Q. And just so we -- just to satisfy your counsel's request, at page 219, line 14, from Friday's testimony, you decided to take your Bentley to a fast-food store, right? "A. I decided to drive the car that was closest when I walked out the door. I was a little stiff." A. Yes. Q. "As I'm sure Kato will tell you. And I just took the nearest car when I walked out the front door." Okay. Let's get back to where we were. You went and got this phone from the kitchen so that you could go outside and find golf clubs, right? A. Yeah. I -- I -- Yes, I did pick up the phone, either before I went in the garage, or I came out of the garage and grabbed it. I'm not really sure which one, but I did pick up the phone before I came out. Q. You're not sure about which one, but one thing you will swear on your oath, you are sure of, sir, is, you went and you got that phone, didn't you? A. I went outside, yes. Q. Are you absolutely positive that you went in the house at some time -- at 10 o'clock at night and put a phone in your pocket? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you remember that, don't you? A. Yes. Q. So then you go outside and you tried to call Paula, right? A. Yes. Q. Well, let me ask you something: How many phones do you have in your house, sir? A. A lot. Q. You have a phone in your kitchen? A. Yes. Q. You have a phone in the kitchen, where the cell phone was? A. Near it, yes. Q. You could have used that phone, couldn't you? You could have gone into the house, say, you know, what -- instead of getting my cell phone and walking outside and making a call, why don't I just use this phone? You could have done that, couldn't you? A. I could have. Q. And you didn't, did you? A. I often don't. Q. Who's talking about often? I'm talking about this night. You didn't do it this night? MR. BAKER: This is argumentative. A. That's correct. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And you decided to use -- pay more money on your cell phone instead of using a phone to make a local call? A. Do it all the time. Q. Accept you do it all the time. But you didn't do it all the time that day, did you? A. No. Q. The only time you did it that day, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, when you went outside, you made this -- supposedly made this call from your driveway. You also say that you -- well, why don't you tell us what you did? Go ahead, tell us -- tell us what you did when you left the garage. A. I grabbed a 3 wood. Q. Give us as much detail as you can. A. As I can. And this is as much detail as I can recall. I grabbed a 3 wood, and I looked at the face of it and I swung it a bit. And I went to the trunk of my Bentley, where I had another set of clubs 'cause the purpose of going into the garage was to get a sand wedge, which is a special league club, and I was playing with a new set of golf clubs that I had just got from the Calloway people the previous week. I was on the road and I didn't like the sand wedge that came to it, so I was looking for my old sand wedge that I normally use. And I went into my trunk of my Bentley, where I had a set of clubs. And I also needed some balls that I play with, a ball called a Maxflite 100HT. Unless you play golf, you don't understand how important that is to a golfer, the type of ball that they play with. Since I had, I believe, a sleeve of this ball, and I normally play two sleeves a round of golf. I looked in my trunk, where I had a bunch of balls, and I tried to find nonscuff balls, and I got about four, five nonscuff balls and put them aside. I got a windbreaker and put it aside, and whatever was in my trunk, and I dropped it on the ground and I took about three or four scuff (sic) balls, dropped them on the grass that was right behind my Bentley, and I took a pitching wedge 'cause I couldn't find any sand wedges at this time. I believe it was right before or directly right after I put a call in to Paula because if she was around, she could have driven me to the airport. And in any event, I chipped those balls. I sculled one; it hit my playground equipment, and it -- because it was dark there -- it bounced and I was cringing, because I just got all the dents out of my Bentley, and I thought the ball may have hit my Bentley. Then I hit -- I mean, I hit a ball over into my neighbor's yard, put that club and that pitching wedge back into the trunk of my car, and I walked out of the Rockingham gate and looked into the back of my Bronco to see if there was any clubs in there. My dog had come out. And in that time, as I said, I put that call in to Paula, my dog went across the street into Mr. Sheinbaum's yard and did her business in the -- in the -- what she normally does in the grass, but not grass -- I can't even think of the name of it now -- then we walked around 'cause the gate had closed and I didn't have any key, and came back in on the other side of Ashford. I came to -- I -- I can't recall if I went in to the front door then or the garage, but I put the club away, and I either turned off the lights downstairs -- if I had already turned out the lights. I may have turned them off before I went in. But I turned off the lights downstairs, except for my lamps that I normally keep on, and I went upstairs. Q. Now, Mr. Simpson, if I asked you to repeat that, you could do it word for word, couldn't you? A. I -- I may be able to come relatively close to that. Q. You memorized this story, haven't you? A. I recall, to the best of my ability, what I said. Q. You memorized it, have you not? You've sat -- MR. BAKER: Objection. Q. You've sat down, rehearsed it and memorized it? MR. BAKER: Argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I don't think I've ever rehearsed it. I told the story before -- Q. And you've had lawyers come down from San Francisco and cross-examine you in practice sessions, haven't you, to get it straight? A. I don't -- I had some lawyers come from San Francisco. What we did, I think, is privileged. Q. That's for the Judge to decide, not you, Mr. Simpson. You had lawyers subject you to practice rounds to get it right -- MR. BAKER: I object Your Honor. Q. -- didn't you? MR. BAKER: I object. That's immaterial and it's also privileged if it ever happened. Q. These are not -- THE COURT: Practice rounds are not privileged. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry? THE COURT: Practice rounds are not privileged. MR. BAKER: Practice rounds? May we have a hearing on this, Your Honor? THE COURT: No. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Answer the question, sir. A. I had lawyers come down. I don't know I wouldn't characterize practice rounds and -- as practice rounds, when lawyers came down and we went through what took place. Q. You don't mean went through with -- these weren't your lawyers. THE COURT: We're not going into the subject. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) No. But these were not lawyers representing you at any time? MR. BAKER: I object to this. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) These were people you never met before that came out and examined you cold, right? MR. BAKER: I object to this, Your Honor. MR. PETROCELLI: They're not his attorneys, Your Honor. MR. BAKER: That's an assertion that is made by Mr. Petrocelli, without any foundation whatsoever. Q. Answer the last question. MR. BAKER: Object to him answering any questions about this. THE COURT: Last question overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Go ahead. MR. BAKER: Doesn't the privilege apply in this courtroom to my client? THE COURT: That portion is not privileged. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Please answer the question after the reporter reads it back you, sir. MR. BAKER: I wish the Evidence Code applied in here. MR. PETROCELLI: I would object to these kinds of comments in front of the jury. They're inappropriate. THE COURT: Read the question back. THE COURT REPORTER: (READING) "Q. And you've had lawyers come down from San Francisco and cross-examine you in practice sessions, haven't you, to get it straight?" THE COURT: That isn't the question. MR. PETROCELLI: I'll ask it again. You had lawyers come down from San Francisco who you never met before, to cross-examine you? MR. BAKER: I object. There's no time frame. There's nothing in this -- if it occurred, it's privileged communication. THE COURT: That is overruled. MR. PETROCELLI: Answer the question. A. I had lawyers come down whom I paid, so they were my lawyers when they got there. And we talked about a lot of things, and they did question me on some things, yes. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did they cross-examine you about this story here? THE COURT: Sustain the objection to that. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Okay. Let's move on. Now, by the way, this whole story that you just told was in rather exteraordinary detail. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I object. I object to this nonsense, Mr. Petrocelli putting his spin on what my client says. MR. PETROCELLI: You would agree -- MR. BAKER: I want -- THE COURT: Excuse me. MR. BAKER: -- want a ruling on that. THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You would agree that you have quite an extraordinary recall of the events that you just related to the jury, correct? A. I wouldn't characterize it as extraordinary, no. Q. Pretty detailed, right? A. That as best as I can recall, I told the jury. Q. And you didn't tell the police any of those details, did you, sir? A. I told the police -- I answered every question the police asked me. Q. Did you tell the police about chipping golf balls? MR. BAKER: I object, Your Honor. That assumes that the police asked him about that. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I don't believe the police asked me -- Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) I didn't ask you if they -- A. -- about what happened after I came back from -- Q. Excuse me, Mr. Simpson. I only asked you if you ever told the police, for any reason, whether you chipped golf balls that night. Yes or no? MR. BAKER: That assumes that there is a question asking that. And to assert that that occurred is a negative poignant, Your Honor, and I object to it. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Please -- THE COURT: Answer the question. A. No. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) I want the question back. I'm going to ask it again, so we don't have an objection. Did you, on June 13, hours after Nicole's death, tell the police that you had chipped golf balls? Yes or no? MR. BAKER: I object to it again. THE COURT: Overruled. Answer it. A. No. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did you tell the police, hours after Nicole's death, that you took a walk and that your dog went into the Sheinbaum lawn and did her business? Say anything -- any of that? A. No. Q. Did you tell the police that you made a phone call to Paula at 10:03 from your driveway? A. No. Q. Did you tell the police anything about 3 woods and 4 woods and any of that stuff? A. No. Q. Did you tell the police anything about what light you turned on and off as you went from one part of your movements to the next? A. No. Q. And you told that story in your deposition, after you heard all the witnesses testify and all the evidence, correct? A. I think my deposition was after all of that. MR. BAKER: Argumentative, compound. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You knew exactly what you had to say to meet and defeat all the witnesses and evidence that was against you, true? MR. BAKER: Great sound bite. Horribly argumentative. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) If he has a legal objection, make it. But this stuff about sound bites is showboating. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. BAKER: This is showboating. Right there is showboating. THE COURT: Excuse me. That answer is overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Please repeat the question. THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'll sustain that objection. Ask a question without arguing it, please. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Okay. Now -- now, you -- what time did you take this walk, by the way, when you went outside your property? A. The only -- well, obviously if 10:03 was a phone call, it was approximately sometime around that time. Q. Well, tell me exactly when it was, as best as you can recall. You were outside the property on June 12, 1994? A. I couldn't tell you exactly. I would say sometime between 10:00. And if the call is 10:03, would be probably sometime five to 10:00 or 10:00 and 10:15 or so, whichever time it took me to do what I just described to you. Q. Well, let's get this clear. First of all, when you went outside the property to take the dog for a walk or whatever it is that you did -- A. That's not why I went outside the property. Q. You went out to look in the car? A. Yeah. I looked in the back to see if there were any clubs. I didn't see any clubs. Q. You didn't open the car, did you? A. No, I don't believe so. Q. When you walked out to Rockingham and looked inside the Bronco, had you already made your phone call to Paula at 10:03? Yes or no? A. To the best of my memory, I did. Q. When you went out on Rockingham, looked in the car, then you were -- then, sort of walking along the property on the outside, swinging your 3 wood, is it? A. As you asked the question, I may have made the call outside there, but my memory is, it was in the driveway. It could have been right when I went outside the gate. I'm not sure exactly. Q. Now, you're not sure whether it was the driveway or the street? A. Well, I -- Q. Yes or no? A. All along the same time. I was walking, so it could have been while I was walking. Q. Excuse me. Where did you make the call from, the driveway or the street? A. I'm pretty sure it was the driveway, but it could have been as I went out the gate, also. I mean, with all -- it was all a matter of minutes, seconds. Q. Let's talk about the time you were outside here. You went along Rockingham north, and then you turned what, right on Ashford? A. Yes. Q. Then you came in the Ashford gate, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. You go anywhere else? A. No. Q. Now, tell me the time that you were on Rockingham and Ashford, outside your property. Tell me the time, the whole time. A. What do you mean, "the time?" Q. The interval of time, was it 10:00 to 10:15? Was it 10:00 to 10:30? Was it 10:45? Was it 9:30? When was it, sir? A. All of this took place sometime, evidently, right before 10:00. I remember my thought process was, there was still time. If Paula was there, that she could get there to take me to the airport. So it was from five to 10:00, 10:00 to roughly -- I would say the whole thing took place 10 or 15 minutes from going outside, doing this, and walking back in. So not much more than that. Q. So what time did you roll into the Ashford Street gate, there? A. If I -- I mean, I'm guessing now. Q. Don't guess. A. You want me to guess? Q. No, I want you to give us your best recollection sir. A. I would be guessing. Q. You don't know? A. You don't want me to guess. I guess -- I would say 10:15, maybe. Q. That's a guess? A. That's a guess. Q. It could have been 10:30? A. No. Q. How do you know it couldn't have been? You just said you were guessing. A. I went upstairs. I recall having a little time before the limo driver would call me. My limo drivers always call me 15 minutes before the call time, and that historically is when I go into gear, doing my final preparations to leave, and I knew I had time to sit on my bed, which I did when I went back in the house. Q. It could have been 10:25 that you entered that Ashford Street gate; true or untrue? A. No, it was no later than 10:15. At the worse, it would have been 10:15 to maybe 10:20, but it wasn't anytime later than that, because I knew I had a little time when I went upstairs to sit on my bed and -- Q. But you were just -- you're just guessing at these times? A. I'm not saying exactly what time I got in or the time when I came out of the garage. And I knew it was roughly -- I knew the whole process took roughly 10, at the most, 15 minutes. And I can -- I can recall thinking that Paula had time to come, and I can recall, seeing the phone records, that it had to be around that period of time, and I knew I was back in the house from the time I finished that process, certainly no more than five to eight minutes. Q. So, sir, it's absolutely crystal clear in your mind, as you sit here and testify before this jury, that you could not have walked past Ashford Street and entered into this gate at 10:25. Is that absolutely crystal clear in your mind? Yes or no? A. Yes. Q. And the reason it is, is because you know that Allan Park is sitting out there at 10:23, smoking a cigarette, and he would have seen you, true? MR. BAKER: Argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. A. If I would have been there at that time -- MR. BAKER: It was sustained, Mr. Simpson. O.J., it's sustained. A. I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) When you first put yourself out there in that street prior to 10:25, you had heard the testimony of Allan Park that he was out there at 10:23, right? MR. BAKER: Argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I'm sorry? Q. When you first testified? A. Testified? Q. Testified. A. Okay. Q. You had already heard the testimony of Allan Park that he was out there at 10:23, right? A. Correct. Q. Also, sir, you also heard the testimony of a man named Charles Cale, that he walked his dog down near this corner of Rockingham and Ashford? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You heard the testimony he was there between 9:30 and 9:45, correct? MR. BAKER: I object. This all calls for hearsay. This is not proper cross-examination. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Yes. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, are you sure, sir, that you weren't out in this area here, on Rockingham, between 9:30 and 9:45? A. Yes. Q. You're sure, right? A. Yes. I'm sorry, when -- you said 9:30? Q. To 9:45. A. 9:30? Q. Yeah, 9:30 p.m. to 9:45, aren't you sure you weren't doing your little walking during that time? A. I think 9:30 I may have been driving back from McDonald's. Q. Okay. So you're back by 9:35, right? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. So between 9:35 and 9:45, you sure you're not out there on the street? A. Yes. Q. So you can definitively tell this jury that when you were outside that property, it was absolutely after 9:45 p.m., true? A. Yes. Q. And you can definitively tell this jury that you went inside the property before 10:23 p.m., right? A. Yes. Q. And that has nothing to do with the fact that those witnesses testified, in your presence, about times, right? MR. BAKER: I object. This is argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) By the way, you testified at your deposition that the only time you looked at a clock that night prior to 11 o'clock was when you were sitting in your bed and you saw that it was about 10:35, 10:40. Remember that testimony? A. No, I don't remember if that's the only time I looked at a clock, but I do know that that's when I looked at a clock. Q. Well, you -- A. Yeah, for sure, that I looked at a clock. Q. Well, you don't recall looking at clocks while you were going outside your walk, do you? A. No. Q. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Now, I'm going to start -- THE COURT: All right. 10-minute recess. Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the case, don't form or express any opinions. (Recess.) (Jurors resumed their respective seats.) THE COURT: You may proceed. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Before the break, Mr. Simpson, we had talked about your statement to the police, that the last thing you did before you left to go to the airport was to get your phone out of the Bronco. Do you recall when I asked you questions about that? A. Yes. Q. You recall that you said that there was something on the tape that indicated that you didn't say that? A. Yes. Q. Well, we're now going to play the tape, okay, at this part of the statement to the police. MR. PETROCELLI: It is Exhibit, for the record -- MR. FOSTER: 782. MR. PETROCELLI: 782. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) This is the portion at page 15 we were talking about earlier and this is a tape recording of your interview with Detectives Tom Lange and Phil Vannatter on June 13, 1994. A. I want to make a correction. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I said it was more to it than that. Q. Excuse me. There's no question pending. MR. BAKER: Further, it is not -- MR. PETROCELLI: Play the tape now. MR. BAKER: I object. This is not where he said there was more on the tape. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. BAKER: This is misleading. MR. PETROCELLI: Please play the tape now. (Pause for tape to be played.) (Tape played; not reported.) MR. PETROCELLI: If you can shut that off. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, did you hear yourself say "the last thing I did before I left, I was rushing, was went and got my phone out of the Bronco"? A. Yes. Q. And did you hear the question about where is the phone now? You said, "In my bag"? A. Yes. Q. "Oh, you have it -- "Right -- "You have it there, right -- "Yeah, in the black bag. A. Yes. Q. You heard all that? A. Yes. Q. You did tell the police on the tape that the last thing you did before you left was you went and got your phone out of the Bronco, you did tell that to the police, right? A. Yes. Q. Yes or no? A. Yes, and -- Q. Thank you. A. -- as I told you before, you left out something again in the middle there. Q. Did you hear it on the tape, sir? A. Yes. Q. What did I leave out? A. Well, whatever that is, I was referring to my stuff that goes with my mobile phone there. You left it out there, and you left it out in repeating it. Q. Let's hear it again, one more time. A. That's what I was referring to, the guts to my phone. Q. So you didn't mean phone? (Pause for tape to be played.) (Tape is played; not reported.) MR. PETROCELLI: Stop. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You said, well, whatever that is, that was in response to the detective going um-hum, correct? A. That was in response, in my mind, sitting there thinking whatever that is whatever it was that goes with my phone. Q. And when he asked you the next question: "Where's the phone now? "In my bag. "Oh, you have it there, right -- "Yeah, in that black bag. "You brought a bag with you?" Et cetera et cetera, even though you were referring, in your mind, to cell phone accessories, you never once said, hey, wait a second, guys, it wasn't my phone, it was these accessories, you never once said that, right? A. I never once said that, no, but it was all together. Q. You used the word phone? A. Yes. Q. You used the word phone later on in the interview again, didn't you? A. That's right. Q. You didn't use the word accessories or anything else, did you? A. That's right. Q. Okay, let's move on. Now, in your deposition in this case, you testified that after you went upstairs to your room, you went up, laid on your bed a while, saw the clock, 10:35, 10:40, running a little late, got in the shower. Do you recall that? A. Yeah. Q. And then, when you're in the shower, you heard the phone ring, from your shower, right? A. At this point I thought I heard the phone ringing and -- Q. Now, you have this system in your -- MR. BAKER: Can he finish his answer. Q. Did you finish your answer? A. I thought I heard the phone ringing, cause you can't always hear it. I looked out and saw the light on. Q. Thank you. I want to get to that. You have this phone system where someone buzzes from the gate, it rings on your phone like a phone call, right? A. Yes. Q. And you can go over to the phone, you can press the gate button, and it opens the gates automatically for the person waiting there to come in, right? A. Sort of. Q. Now, you know your limousine driver always comes in through the Ashford gate, right? A. Yeah, my main guy would normally come through the Ashford gate. Q. Main guy being Dale St. John? A. Yes. Q. And when you were in that shower that night, and the phone is ringing, you looked out and you could see this phone right across from your shower on that wall had the light on, and you could tell it was the gate, right? A. Across the room, yes. Q. Yeah. And you thought it was your normal driver, Dale St. John, picking you up? A. I would have assumed it would be Dale. Q. You never heard of Allan Park, right? A. No. Q. And Dale had a limo company called Town & Country, right? A. I believe so. Q. Okay. Now, when you were in the shower and you heard the phone, and you opened the door, and you saw that it was the driver, you did not get out and walk ten feet and press the button and let him in, true? A. Correct. Q. And in your deposition, you explained that the reason you didn't let him in was because you believed he knew how to get in on his own, without you, right? A. Well, the main reason I let him in -- Q. Is that what you testified to, sir? A. I don't believe so. I believe -- I think I didn't open the gate 'cause I didn't want the dog to go out. I don't recall him ever letting himself totally in on his own. Q. Let's look at 3677, 3679. By the way, there was only one dog on your property that night, Chachi, right? A. Yes. Q. You believe that Dale St. John could get in by pushing the gate open, and knew how to do that without being buzzed in, true? A. I believe that if he was going to walk on the property, as many times as he has been at my house, he would have known to push on the gate. I don't believe he has ever let himself in with the car onto my property. Q. You didn't let him in that night because you figured that he could let himself in? A. I figured he would do what he always did, wait outside. Q. Now, you -- and your explanation is you thought that Chachi would run outside the gate and you didn't want to let the driver in from the bathroom cause when the gate opened your dog would go running outside, right? A. Yes, that's -- had been a problem. And I don't know if that was my entire thought process but historically I would not let him in. My housekeeper would go out and make sure the dog don't go out and would let him in. I don't recall ever letting him in from upstairs. Q. So you just didn't want to let that driver in because you're concerned about the dog, right? A. Yes, and normally, on many occasions -- Q. You can -- A. -- he can wait outside. Q. You can answer yes or no. A. Yes. Q. You didn't want to let the driver in while you were upstairs because you say that the dog would have gotten out, right? A. Well, I didn't want to get out of the shower, for one, and two, I wouldn't have let him in even if I was out of the shower. Q. When you did get out of the shower, you had to walk by your phone to get out of the bathroom into your bedroom. It's right there on the wall? A. That's correct. Q. You didn't let him in at that time either? A. I don't think I've ever let him in. Q. Who's -- sir, who's talking about ever? We're only talking about the night of June 12, 10:45, 10:50, whatever time it is. You didn't let him in that night, did you? A. That's correct. Q. You let that guy wait out there, right? A. Like he always does. Q. Even though you thought it was your regular driver? A. Like he always does. Q. We're not talking about what he always does. We're only talking about what you did that night? A. I didn't let him in. Q. Thank you. Okay. You testified in your deposition, sir, that -- MR. BAKER: Page and line. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) 485 through 486, 487 through 488, that your first interaction with this limo driver is when you came downstairs half dressed, brought down a suit bag, looked in your golf cover bag for your black shoes, and it was at that point that you saw the -- actually saw the limousine waiting out there at the Ashford gate, right? A. That's correct. Q. And the pants you had on were those stone-washed light blue jeans that you wore to Chicago, right? A. Yes. Q. And you had on a pair of shoes, right? A. Yes. Q. And it's kind of late, and the limo driver's there, and you're rushing to get out of the house and get to the airport, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And nonetheless, you say you put on a -- a -- a robe, right? A. Whenever I get out of the shower I put on a robe. Q. We're not talking about whenever. Really just focus on this night, okay? A. Okay. Q. You put on a robe, right? A. Yes. Q. And you had pants on, shoes on, and instead of just putting on a shirt or coming down with no shirt on, you put on a robe, right? A. I put on a robe first, yes. Q. Okay. And by the way, was it a dark robe? A. I believe it may have been a burgundy and blue striped robe. Q. But a dark one? Not a light-colored robe? A. I don't know if it would be considered dark or light. It wasn't real light, but -- Q. You said dark in your deposition. A. It could be considered dark, yes. Q. Okay. And then you claim you had this dark robe on and stone-washed jeans and shoes, and nothing on top, having just coming come out of the shower you say, you then walked downstairs? A. Um-hum. Q. Through the front entrance, looked in this golf bag which had been placed earlier in the evening between the benches there? A. On the bench. Q. Or on the bench? A. Yes. Q. Picked it up, looked for shoes in the golf bag, right? A. Yes. Q. You saw that they were there? A. Yes. Q. Closed up the bag? A. Yes. Q. And then you picked the bag up, and sort of motioned and signaled to the limousine driver, right, to let him know you were there? A. I picked it up, I kind of put it over the ground and threw it on the ground. Q. So you signaled to him? A. I don't know about signaled to him. Q. You raised up your golf clubs? A. I raised it up off the bench, kind of faced him, and threw it down on the ground. Q. Intending that he's seen you, to let him know that the luggage was there, right? A. I would have felt it would have been impossible for him not to see me. Q. So you were intending that he see you, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you then walked back in? A. Yes. Q. This was the first time you saw the limousine driver? A. I didn't see the limousine driver. Q. Car? A. Car, yes. Q. Car is parked here on Ashford? A. Yes. Q. And, sir, you say that when you did all this, you walked out as far as -- as the bench -- the end of the bench, right? A. Well, I picked it up off the bench and I threw it down near the end of the bench, so I'm assuming -- there's not a whole lot of room there -- that I would have been at the end of the bench. Q. So you didn't go beyond the end of the bench, right? A. I didn't go beyond. I didn't go to the driveway. To say I was at the end of the bench or not, I wasn't measuring. It's a small area. Q. You didn't go beyond the end of the bench, right? A. I don't know. Q. Well, were you out in the driveway? A. No. Q. Were you over here, where the W is, or the A is? (Indicating to Exhibit 116.) A. No. Q. You were back in here? A. Yeah, somewhere in that area. Q. And that's when you believe the limousine driver saw you going in the house, right? A. Yes. Q. And you -- by the time you testified in this case in the deposition, you had heard Allan Park's testimony at the preliminary hearing, right? A. Yes. Q. You were familiar with his statement that he gave to your lawyer, Robert Shapiro, on June 14, right? A. Probably. Q. And you even heard him testify at trial, too? A. Yes. Q. So you were very familiar with what Allan Park said and in particular where Allan Park saw you and when he saw you? A. Yeah, what I assume was me, yeah. Q. And you're also familiar with the description that Allan Park gave, that he saw a figure your height, your weight, African-American person, in dark clothing, you were familiar with that, too, were you not? A. I was somewhat confused 'cause I -- somewhere I thought he said, someone with an overcoat on, at some point. Q. Despite the confusion, you were familiar with his story that he saw a person in dark clothing, right? A. That's correct. Q. It's for that reason that you are giving this testimony today that you had this robe on? A. That's incorrect. Q. So that you could put clothing on that would meet Park's description but not have you out in the driveway? MR. BAKER: Argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. When you were out here, by the way -- by the way, putting this golf bench (sic) down -- putting the golf clubs down in between the benches, you had a gate control box right here, right? A. Yes. Q. And that's what, about 15 feet, 20 feet? (Indicating to 116) A. 20 feet, 30 feet. Q. So there was nothing in the world preventing you, under your story, from walking the short distance, pressing that button, clutching your dog so that he or she did not run out, and letting that car in to permit the limousine driver to do his thing? MR. BAKER: Argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I didn't see my dog, so there was nothing to prevent me from going out, clutching my dog, and pushing that button or pushing any phone in the house to let him in. Q. So there was nothing preventing you from walking the short distance when you saw the driver to press the button and let him in, true? A. Absolutely nothing. Q. But you did not do so, did you? A. Never had. Didn't do so. Q. I didn't ask you about ever. You didn't do so that night? A. No. Q. Thank you. Now, are you, sir, sure, by the way, that when you came downstairs in this robe, that you did not walk over to the Bentley and look in the trunk for the shoes? Are you absolutely sure? A. I'm -- at this point I know I didn't. I may have earlier, I don't know if I looked for shoes, but I doubt it. Q. I'm talking about when the limo driver first saw you? A. No, I didn't, not at all that time. Q. Your testimony today in court is that you only went outside, out to the benches, right? A. That's correct. Q. And not the Bentley? A. Not the Bentley. Q. Okay. Well, isn't it true, sir, that before Allan Park testified at trial in March of 1995, you spoke to Lenore Walker in February, of 1995? A. Yes. Q. And isn't it true, sir, that you told Dr. Lenore Walker, your own hired expert, that you went into the Bentley for the black shoes, which Bentley was parked across the driveway, isn't that true? A. No, I think -- Q. Yes or no? A. I heard many things. We were trying to figure out the evening when I spoke to her. Q. Figure out? A. No. Q. Why did you have to figure anything out? A. Trying to figure out what took place. Q. Trying to figure out what to say, is that what you said, figure out the evening? A. No, incorrect. Q. You just remember the evening, but you and Lenore Walker sat there trying to figure it out? MR. BAKER: Argumentative, asked and answered. A. I don't believe that was her purpose at all. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. What you just said -- A. No. Q. -- you didn't just say that you tried to figure out the evening? A. I was trying to figure out what happened that evening and I had heard -- Q. There's exactly -- A. I had heard Allan Park long before February. Q. Any question to you -- excuse me. Is it your testimony under oath before this jury that you heard Allan Park testify long before February that he saw you only at this point and not across the driveway? Answer that question -- A. No. Q. -- Mr. Simpson -- MR. BAKER: Just a minute, Your Honor, this in your face. Maybe Mr. Petrocelli can go back and get at the -- get at the podium since he's not doing anything over there except pointing at my client. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson -- MR. BAKER: Would you direct him to get back to the podium if he's not going to be up around and doing anything with that exhibit around the board. THE COURT: Overruled. You've done the same thing with other witnesses, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Not when I -- when I was using the monitor, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, you just said under oath that Allan Park had already testified by February 1995, didn't you? A. Yes. Q. And what you meant to convey to the jury is that Allan Park had already given his testimony; that he came outside and picked you up at this spot, right? That's what you just meant to convey? A. No. Q. And -- A. I didn't mean to convey I heard him testify before this day. Q. And, in fact, when Allan Park testified before your interview with Dr. Lenore Walker at the grand jury, his statement to -- statement to Shapiro, At the preliminary hearing, his testimony was that he saw the figure walk across the driveway, true or untrue? A. I don't believe so. Q. You were familiar with Allan Park's testimony and statement that he saw the figure walk across the driveway, true or untrue? A. Untrue. I always thought that was Marcia Clark who said that. Q. But you're talking about before Allan Park ever took the stand in the criminal case -- A. Whenever he said it, I don't ever recall -- Q. -- in the trial? A. -- Allan Park ever saying someone walked across the driveway. I never recall him ever saying that. Q. That is why you told Dr. Lenore Walker that you went out from the shower, to the Bentley to get your shoes and that Park saw you walking across the driveway, true or untrue? A. Untrue. Incorrect. Q. You did tell Dr. Lenore Walker on February 25, 1995, that you walked -- you went into the Bentley not the benches, true or untrue? A. I believe I told her I was at the Bentley earlier. Q. You told Dr. Lenore Walker that you went to the Bentley, sir, to get your black shoes, the same black golf shoes that you were just describing that you went to the benches to get, true or untrue? A. I don't believe that's what I told Lenore Walker, no. Q. Did you not tell Lenore Walker the following: You went into the shower, you heard the phone ringing, you knew it must have been the limo driver, you got dressed, you went to put the golf outfit in, you needed the black socks and shoes, and you went to the Bentley for your black shoes? A. No, I don't recall saying that to Lenore Walker. Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that the description that I just read to you from Dr. Walker's notes is and represents the exact same point in time that we're now talking about, getting out of the shower and going downstairs? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And you told Dr. Walker that, with respect to that precise period of time, that you went into the Bentley, correct? A. No, that's incorrect. Q. And you did so because you thought that's what Allan Park was going to say at the trial, correct? A. That's incorrect. MR. BAKER: Argumentative. Q. And, sir -- THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And, sir, what is it -- which one is it, sir? Is it the Bentley, or the benches? A. I went to the Bentley earlier and I went to -- only as far as approximately the bench, when I came out and signaled for what I thought was Dale to come in and get my golf bag. Q. Well, perhaps you misunderstood my question. I'm only referring to that moment in this story when you came down from the shower, donned with this robe, this dark robe with your jeans on and your shoes on, to check on golf shoes. Are your with me? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Object to that question on the ground that it's argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Is it the Bentley or the benches that you went to at this point in time? A. The benches. Q. Not the Bentley? A. Not the Bentley. Q. The benches? A. The benches. Q. Now, you testified in your deposition that after this episode that we've been describing, you went upstairs and to your bedroom to complete packing, right? A. Yes. Q. You were doing a lot of packing at the last minute here, aren't you? A. Always do. Q. And you told the police that at some point in time you were rushing and hurrying and packing, right? A. Yes. Q. Then you also told the police that you were leisurely packing, right? A. Yes. Q. So you told them both things, right? A. I was leisurely earlier and rushing at the end as I always do. Q. You're only going for one night, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, when you went upstairs to complete the packing, the phone rang again, right? A. Yes. Q. And it was the gate, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, this is like what, the third time you're hearing the phone ring, and it's this buzzing limo driver trying to get to your property? A. I don't know. I believe it was the second time I heard the phone ring. Q. And this time you answered it, right? A. Yes. Q. And for the first time you discovered that it was not Dale St. John, your normal driver, but a new guy that you never met or spoke to before, right? A. Yes. Q. And then you -- he told you that he was ready to be let in, right? A. No. Q. You told him that you had overslept and just gotten out of the shower, right? A. Absolutely, not. Q. Deny that? A. Totally. Q. Okay. And in any event, you hung up the phone, and you did not buzz that driver in then, right? A. Yes. Q. Correct? A. That's correct. Q. You let him wait out there? A. Like I always do. Q. Wasn't talking about always, sir, just this night? A. Yes. I let him wait out there. Q. You let Allan Park wait out there? A. Yes. Q. You did not buzz him in even though all you had to do was hang up the phone and press a button on your phone; isn't that right? A. That's correct. Q. And again, the reason is this concern about Chachi running out of the gate, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So you completed dressing -- and by the way, you put on a white shirt, denim shirt to go with your stone-washed jeans, right? A. I believe so, yes. Q. And you came downstairs and you started getting your luggage together, right, getting it into the car and so forth? A. Not really, no. Q. Now, at some point, sir, there was a piece of luggage behind your Bentley, wasn't there? A. Two pieces, yes. Q. And Kato Kaelin, at one point, went to retrieve the item and you stopped him and said, no, no, I'll get it, true? A. That's incorrect. Q. So if both Kato Kaelin and Allan Park so testified, they are both lying? A. Well, about the "no, no I'll get it." Q. They are lying about that? A. I don't know if they're lying, but I believe that characterization, "no, no, I'll get it" -- I think I just said I'll get it. Q. I'll get it? A. Yes. Q. Not no, no? A. Not no, no. Q. Okay. A. Yes. Q. You sure about that now? A. Yes. Q. You're sure? A. Yes. Q. And you went and got that bag, right? A. Well, I went out to -- back to my Bronco, and I went by it and on the way back if I got it, yes. Q. We'll talk about going to the Bronco. I want to focus on the bag. MR. PETROCELLI: Is it inside, Steve? I apologize. It was locked up. This is Exhibit 899. (Counsel places Exhibit 899 on witness stand for witness to review.) Q. This is is a pretty new bag, Mr. Simpson, isn't it? A. Yes. Q. Even got like a tag on it still, doesn't it? A. Yes. Q. When it was purchased. A. I don't know if it was purchased. Q. Now, is that the bag that you went to get near the Bentley, sir? A. I believe so. Q. And if Allan Park and Kato Kaelin testified that they never saw that bag before, they would be mistaken, right? A. Well, I know Allan Park said he never saw the bag at all, so -- Q. So he would be mistaken, right? A. He couldn't (sic) be mistaken that he never saw the bag. Q. How do you know what he testified? A. I was at the trial. Q. Were you here at this trial when he testified? A. No. I was at the criminal trial when he testified, yes. Q. Now, you're positive, sir, that these new -- this new bag is the one that was at the Bentley that you retrieved and brought inside the limo with you? A. I believe it is. I can't say a thousand percent I'm sure of it because I normally have a lot of different bags that I get from various tournaments and things. Q. You're sure this bag wasn't acquired after the fact? A. Well, I didn't acquire it after the fact. But I'm pretty sure it was a bag that was there that night. Q. You're sure that bag wasn't acquired by someone, after the fact, to substitute for another bag that has since never been seen? MR. BAKER: Your Honor, there's absolutely no basis for him to ask that question. I object to it and it's argumentative. MR. PETROCELLI: Try two witnesses who have already testified. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Well, I would think it would -- I would think not. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Are you unsure of yourself? A. No. I would think not. I wouldn't know anybody that would do that. Q. Do what? Do a dishonest thing like replace one bag with another? A. Yes. Q. Even if they're on trial for their life? MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I object. This is great argument. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Wouldn't do such a thing? A. I don't -- THE COURT: Sustained. Jury is to disregard that last question and answer. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, I notice a little hesitation in your voice. Are you sure this is the bag? A. That looks like the bag that was there that night. I -- as you -- when you look at my cars, you'll see many little bags that people give me during golf tournaments and stuff, so it could very well have been the bag. It looked like the bag that I pulled out of my car that night and put a few balls and a Windbreaker in. Q. Anyway, at the airport, sir, when you got there with regard to that bag, is it not true that while Allan Park went off to look for a Skycap, that you went to your trunk, the trunk of the limo, and you put that bag inside your larger golf bag? A. Yeah. I actually took the balls and stuff out of it and put it in my larger golf. Q. My question is did you put that bag inside the golf bag? A. Yes. Q. Okay. That's that big golf bag that went with you to Chicago, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, on the question of the luggage, just to get it out of the way here, you -- when you left for the airport you had basically five pieces of luggage, right? You had your golf bag, right? A. Yes. Q. You had your Loius Vuitton bag, right? A. Yes. Q. You had this suit bag that has the initials O.J.S on it, right? A. Yes. Q. You had this black grip that you -- that's how you refer to it, like your shoulder bag, right? A. Yes. Q. And then the fifth bag you say was this blue bag, right? A. Yes. Q. And when you got to the airport, you did a little luggage consolidation and you put that blue bag in the golf bag, right? A. Yes. Q. So now basically there's four items of luggage, right, four? A. Yes. Q. Four pieces left? A. Yes. Q. And incidentally, that blue bag you took in the back of the limo with you, with your black grip -- A. I think when we came out I threw them both in the back of the limo, yes. Q. Excuse me? A. I think I threw them both in the back of the limo when I came out to go to the airport. Q. When you went to the airport in the limousine you had that -- you say it was that bag and your black grip with you in the back seat of the limo, right? A. I believe so, yes. Q. And when you finished putting that in the golf bag, you did a little consolidation at the trunk there while Park was away, right? A. Yes, that -- putting all my golf stuff together, yes. Q. In fact, you're saying you even removed some things from the bag, didn't you? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then two pieces were checked with the Skycap, the golf bag and the Loius Vuitton bag? A. That's right. Q. And then you went on the airplane with the grip and your suit bag carrying a suit for the evening dinner in Chicago, right? A. That's correct. Q. Okay, we'll get back to the golf bag a little later on. Now, when you were downstairs getting ready to leave to go to the airport, there was some conversation with Mr. Kaelin about noises that he had heard? A. Yeah. At one point, I think when I was coming back from the -- at some point he was talking about noise. Q. Yeah. And he had said something about an earthquake? A. I believe so. Q. Now, you were home at the time these noises were supposedly heard, right? A. Yes. Q. You didn't feel an earthquake, did you? A. Certainly not. Q. Okay. So Kaelin expressed to you concern that there might be somebody on the grounds like a prowler, right? A. Yeah. He said he heard something in the back of the house. Q. And he even asked for a flashlight at one point? A. I asked him, do you have a flashlight? And he said -- I think he had a pen light. And I asked him to ask the limo driver. Q. Now, at no time did you tell Kaelin, before you left for the airport, to take any special precautions with regard to your daughter, Arnelle, who lived on the property, true? A. True. Q. And at no time did you give Kato any instructions about what he should do with regard to the noises, such as calling Westec or calling the police department, true? A. I told him to look around. Q. But you didn't tell him to call anybody, like security, right? A. No. Q. And when you got in the car and you left, and you drove off in the limousine, there was a cell phone that that car had, right? A. Yes. Q. And, in fact, you also had your own phone with you by this time because you had taken it with you to take on your trip, right? A. That's correct. Q. And you didn't make any calls to Mr. Kaelin from the limousine in regard to the noises that he heard, right? A. I know I had a conversation with Allan Park about it. I can't recall if I attempted to call him and couldn't get through or -- I called once I got to the airport. Q. And -- A. I'm not sure. I may have -- Q. Excuse me. We're not talking about a conversation with Allan Park. We're now talking about a conversation with Kato Kaelin who heard the noises. A. I don't know. I think I -- it seems to me that I attempted to and didn't get through, so when I got to the airport I called him. Q. So if the phone records would show that there were absolutely no calls made from that limousine ride, you wouldn't quarrel with that, would you? A. No. But I think I -- I seem to recall attempting to. But sometimes when you drive, you can't get through on the cell so ... Q. And by the way -- A. Maybe it wasn't working. I'm not sure. Q. When that happens it shows up on the phone bill, when you don't get through, like we saw earlier? A. I don't know. Sometimes if it -- If you make a connection through, it will show up on the phone bill, and sometimes if you don't ever make a connection through, it doesn't show up on the phone bill. Q. And you didn't give Allan Park any instructions to go back and talk to Kaelin, right? A. No. Q. And when you got to the airport and you hustled upstairs to catch your plane, you were the last person to get on the plane, by the way, right? A. I believe so. Q. And you made a phone call from the pay Phone at the airport, right? A. Yes. Q. And you called Mr. Kaelin to tell him to set the alarm, right? A. Yeah. I called him and asked him, did you find anything. Then I said, well, maybe you can set the alarm. Q. I asked you if you called him to set the alarm. Did you or didn't you? A. I -- eventually, that's what I told him to do. Q. At no time in that call, sir, did you mention a word about the noises that you -- that he had heard, true? A. No. I think the first -- Q. True or untrue? A. That's untrue. Q. Okay. A. I didn't mention the noises. I asked him did he look around, and he said no. Q. Than you gave him no instructions in regard to Arnelle, did you? A. No. Q. Making sure she was safe and there wasn't some burglar or prowler on the ground? A. No. Q. Now, just a few moments ago, Mr. Simpson, you talked about before you left, you went down to the Bronco to -- to get something, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, we went through this. On the police statement it says the last thing you did is to get your phone, right? A. Yes. Q. And your testimony now is that you went down and you're -- not to get the phone but to get phone accessories? A. Yes. I view it all as the same thing. Q. You view what as the same thing? A. This comes as a unit. Q. You mean the phone and the accessories because -- MR. BAKER: Can you let him finish his answer, Mr. Petrocelli. A. I view -- it's a nice little purse package that the whole thing comes together in and I view that as my phone. Q. And by the way, in this accessory things you're talking about, what is that, a phone charger? A. It's a -- you have a portable phone charger, you have a wire that you can put into the light socket of any other car and use it as a battery. It has a -- it's a nice case. It has a -- something else. It has a -- oh, another battery, and it all fits in a little leather bag -- case. Q. Now, couple questions about that. First of all, you weren't really interested in getting your cigarette lighter battery charger to go to Chicago on an airplane, right? You weren't renting a car there? A. I may have 'cause I may have stayed over. Q. But they pick you up in limos and Hertz takes cares of you? A. Yes. Q. They drive you all around, first class treatment? A. Yes. Q. Fly first class? A. Yes. Q. They pay for everything? A. Yes. Q. So you're nor going there and checking into the Hertz rent-a-car place and looking for a little, you know, car to rent, are you? A. If I stayed over I would have rented a Hertz car, yes. Q. So for that reason you were going to -- you really wanted to go get that little cigarette lighter charger; is that what you're saying? A. No. It all comes in a case, so it's together, what's in there. Often I never used the other battery, but it all comes together so whatever is in there is what I carry together. And I also -- Q. And? A. Excuse me. Q. Sure. A. And I always carry it together. Q. Besides the cigarette charger, what other charger is in there? A. It's a little thing. It's really kind of unique. You flip it up and you stick it in your hotel -- in the hotel and put the battery on it so it recharges the battery so when you're out on the golf course the battery doesn't go dead if you're using it. Q. And you wanted to take that with you to put in your hotel room? A. I carry it all with me. It's how I carry the phone. That's how it all comes. Q. Now, when you got to the hotel room that morning, you didn't take that thing out and stick it in a wall to charge anything, did you? A. No, I didn't. Q. Okay. And your testimony at your deposition was that these -- this case with everything in it that you're describing was found on the passenger side seat, right? A. Yeah, either on the seat or the floor. I'm not sure. Q. On the passenger side? A. Yes. Q. Now, when you went out to the Bronco, this is while Park is still parked there, right, in the limo? A. He's not in the car. The limo's in the driveway, he's standing somewhere in here, and I think Kato's over here. Q. Right before you're going -- ready to go to the airport? A. Yes. Q. And you say you then walked down -- all the way down the driveway, right? A. Yes. Q. And you pressed the gate control box? A. I may have. I may have -- Yeah, I'm sure I pressed it going out or -- no, I know what I did. I unhinged it. Q. And you opened, it right? A. Yeah. Q. Now, you just said you unhinged it? A. Yeah. Q. You sure you didn't hit that button? A. No, I'm pretty sure I unhinged it. Q. You sure the dog didn't run out? A. No, the dog didn't run out. I unhinged it so I wouldn't have to open the gate all the way. Q. If you had opened it by opening the gate control box, the possibility existed that the dog would get out? A. If I called him at that point, if I can see him when he leaves, I call him, I can stop him, yes. Q. You went out, you say you walked over to the driver side of the Bronco, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, even though these items were on the passenger side, you went over to the driver side, right? A. Yeah. Q. No explanation for that, right? A. I think it's just a natural habit that you go to the driver side of your car. Q. You opened up the car door, right? A. Yes. Q. And you reached with your right hand to get these items on the passenger seat, and you also testified you got a Windbreaker that was on the console, right? A. I think the Windbreaker was sort of over the back of the front seat also. Q. And by the way, was -- did the light go on the overhead light -- A. I don't recall. It should have. Q. Now, you just reached in, got these items and closed the door and went back, right? A. That's correct. Q. Now, you did not get in the car and sit down, right? A. You know what, I don't know. We would have to get in the Bronco to see what it would take me to get, getting in the car to reach over there. I wasn't thinking about it, if I climbed in, grabbed it, or I stayed on the street and grabbed it. I really don't know. Q. Mr. Simpson, you didn't get into this vehicle, sit down, close the door, and then remove your items? That's not what you're saying? A. No. I'm just saying the Bronco's kind of a big car so you got to almost get in it to get anything. Q. You didn't start the car, right? A. Correct. Q. You didn't pull out the headlight button, right? A. Correct. Q. And you didn't close the door, right? A. That's correct. Q. So you didn't have to open the door 'cause it wasn't closed, it was open the whole time, right? A. I'm sorry? Q. You didn't have to -- You didn't have to? A. Say it again. Q. You didn't have to open the driver-side door by pulling the handle because it was already open, right? A. Yes. Q. So you just reached in, got your things, and closed the door, right? A. Reached in, climbed up -- reached in or climbed up and got the things. Q. That's -- climbed up; that's a new fact? A. I doubt if it's a new fact. I can't say whether reaching in to get something out of a car or a Bronco, if you climb up in it to grab it or if you reach over and grab it. I can't say specifically if I did either one. Q. You left that Bronco, you closed the door and locked it, right? A. That's correct. Q. You didn't bleed in that Bronco? A. If I did I would have no knowledge of it. Q. You didn't bleed? A. I would have absolutely no knowledge -- Q. You didn't bleed on the thing that opens up the cigarette lighter because you didn't open up the -- excuse me. You didn't bleed on the nob where you open the headlights or turn on the headlights, right? A. I would have no knowledge. I doubt very seriously -- Q. You didn't touch it? A. -- if I did. Q. You didn't touch it? A. I didn't touch it. Q. Now, you testified on Friday that after you had come back from McDonald's at 9:35 in your Bentley you had not seen a single speck of blood on you or from your body that entire day and evening, right? A. That's correct. Q. So -- and when you went into the Bronco, you didn't see any blood anywhere, right? A. Anywhere. Q. You didn't -- A. That's correct. Q. You didn't see blood on the light switch? A. That's correct. Q. You didn't see blood on the door handle that you open the door, right? A. That's correct. Q. You didn't even touch that door handle on the inside of the car, right? A. I wouldn't know that or not. Q. And you were right-handed? A. Yes. Q. So your reaching in with your right hand, right? A. I would assume so. Q. Not your left hand, right? A. I would assume that if I normally reach, it would be with my right hand. Q. There was nothing coming out of your right hand dripping with blood, right? A. Not that I saw. Q. And are you now saying you stepped in the Bronco, sir? A. I'm saying, as I told you before, I don't know if I -- how I got over it to get the thing. I just know that normally a Bronco is a big car, that you kind of get up to reach something. I don't recall if I stood on the street, leaned all the way in and reached over and got whatever I had to get, or if I got in it and reached over and got what I had to because I don't recall if it was -- if it was on the floor. There was just no way you can reach it from outside the car and reach across and get it off the floor. Q. So the record will reflect, when you just demonstrated reaching, both times you reached with your right hand? A. That's correct. Q. And then you're right-handed? A. That's correct. Q. Did you leave a bloody footprint there when you stepped in? A. I certainly didn't see it. Q. You think it's a possibility, sir? A. No. Q. You think it's a possibility that you dripped blood all over that Bronco when you reached in for a few seconds to grab these items? You think that's a possibility. MR. BAKER: Argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I didn't see any blood. Anything's a possibility, but I certainly did not see myself bleeding at this time. Q. Well, you just said leaving a bloody shoe print wasn't possible? A. I don't -- anything's a possibility, but I don't -- I don't think I left any blood there. I don't think so. Q. You know blood was found the next morning in that car, right? A. Yes. Q. You have no explanation for that blood, do you, sir? A. That's correct. Q. And it's your blood, right? A. I don't know. Q. It matches your blood? A. I've been told that it does, yes. Q. You have no explanation for how blood matching your blood and DNA matching your DNA were found in that Bronco the next morning, true? A. I don't know if it was found the next morning, but -- Q. What do you mean you don't know? A. I don't know when they took it out. I didn't think they did that the next morning. I'm sorry that I may be ignorant to that. Q. Well, Monday or Tuesday? A. Whenever. Q. And you have no explanation for how DNA matching your DNA was found in that Bronco, right? A. That's correct. Q. And you have no explanation for how your blood was found in that Bronco? A. That's correct. Q. And you have no explanation, sir, for how blood of Nicole's was found on the carpet of the driver side, do you? A. No. Q. And you have no explanation for how Ron Goldman's blood got in your car that night, do you? A. Me personally, no. Q. Have no explanation for this jury, do you? A. No. Q. None? A. None. Q. I notice you turned to the jury. You trying to emphasize that point? MR. BAKER: Your Honor, that's out of line. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, you did tell the police, however, sir, when you were interviewed the next morning, that you did cut your finger that night, right? A. Yes. Q. And you told the police that you cut your finger at a time that was between 10 and 11, right? A. Yes. Q. That's the time that Ron and Nicole were murdered, right? A. That's what I'm told, yes. Q. And you told the police that you may have reopened that cut in Chicago, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, the cut that you reopened in Chicago, sir, was on your middle finger, right? A. May have reopened, yes. Q. What do you mean may have? You just -- you didn't tell the cops "may have," did you? A. I thought so. I thought that's what I said to them. Q. Now, the cut on your middle finger is one that still bears a scar, does it not? (Witness reviews finger.) A. Yes. Q. Left hand middle finger, right? A. Yes. (Witness displays finger to Mr. Petrocelli.) Q. Right over there, right across the knuckle? A. Yes. Q. How did that mark get on your finger between 10 and 11 on June 12 in Los Angeles? A. I didn't see that or any mark on my hand between 10 and 11 on June 12. Q. How is it, then, that you reopened that cut in Chicago the next morning? A. It was in -- an assumption on my part. Q. What do you mean by assumption? You assumed -- MR. BAKER: Let him answer the question. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You assumed -- MR. BAKER: He asked you what? MR. PETROCELLI: Would you answer the question. MR. BAKER: What do you mean by an assumption? MR. PETROCELLI: Withdraw the question. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You assumed you reopened the cut; is that what you're saying? A. Yes, because I did not see any cut, as I emphasized to the police on numerous occasions, the night before. And I guess I did the wrong thing by trying to assume, and I assumed that if I was cut the night before, maybe it was the same cut because there was no other cut on my hand. Q. Well, the cut that you were talking to the police about, was this one that still bears the scar? A. That's correct. rm54 Q. You told the police, sir, that you reopened that -- A. Yeah. Q. -- in Chicago, true or untrue? Just answer the question. A. I can't answer the question cause I think I said may have. Q. You may have or did, right? A. May have. Q. Okay. We'll find it. And you also told the police that you were quite sure you cut your finger before you went to Chicago, true or untrue? A. Probably. Q. Probably? A. I don't recall saying it, but I do recall when they were asking me about the night before, on numerous occasions that day, I assumed that I cut my hand. Q. And they asked you if you may have -- if you had been bleeding at Nicole's or cut it at Nicole's in the past couple of weeks, and you said no, you're quite sure you cut it last night. Do you remember that? A. I saw blood last night, yes. Q. Well, let me read on page 22, line 27. (Reading.) "Q. Do you recall having that cut on your finger the last time you were at Nicole's house? "A. Oh, a week ago? "Q. Yeah. "A. No. "Q. 0h, so it's since then? "A. Oh, I'm pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, just last night. "Q. Okay. Somewhere last night you cut it? "A. Yeah, yeah. "Q. Somewhere after the recital? "A. Somewhere when I was rushing to get out of my house. "Q. Okay. After the recital? "A. Yeah. "Q. What do you think happened? Do you have any idea? "A. I have no idea, man." There's no doubt that you told the police you cut your hand the night before when you were leaving for the airport, true? A. True. Q. And you told the police that you had no idea how you did it, right? A. That's correct. Q. And you told the police that you reopened that cut or may have reopened that cut in Chicago, right? A. Yes. Q. Tell the jury which cut did you reopen in Chicago, sir. Point to it. A. The police -- Q. Just point to the cut on your finger -- A. Well, I don't know because -- Q. -- that you reopened? A. You haven't talked about everything that's in there. Q. No, no, no, we'll do this one step at a time. A. I don't know, I never saw -- Q. Excuse me, sir. I just want you to point -- MR. BAKER: Your Honor - MR. PETROCELLI: He's not answering my question. MR. BAKER: That's because you won't let him. You keep interrupting him. Let him answer the question. THE COURT: Overruled. Ask your question. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, point to the cut on your finger that you sustained in Los Angeles between 10 and 11 p.m. on June 12 and that you reopened in Chicago the next morning. Just point to it. A. I can't, cause I never saw a cut that night. Q. Well, you know the finger that you cut in Chicago, right? A. Yes. Q. So point to that. A. The finger that I cut in Chicago is here. MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect Mr. Simpson is pointing to the middle finger of his left hand, just above -- Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What do you call that, knuckle joint, I don't know. What is it? A. You're asking me? Q. Yeah. A. I would call it a knuckle. Q. Okay. And there's a scar there, right? A. Yes. Q. Is that scar the cut that you incurred in Los Angeles between 10 and 11 p.m. that you recut in Chicago, yes or no? A. I would have to say no. Q. Is that the cut you reopened in Chicago, yes or no? A. I would say no. Q. What do you mean you would say? What happened? Can't you just answer the question? MR. BAKER: Well, that's argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. Answer it. A. You want me to explain? Q. I'm not asking you what you would say. When you told the police that you cut your finger in Los Angeles, and that you cut it again in Chicago, I would like you to tell us what cut you were referring to? A. I think earlier I told you I assumed, because I saw blood the night before, that I had cut my finger. I made it clear to the police that I never saw a cut, on numerous occasions that day. I made an assumption, which I realize I shouldn't have made, because I saw blood -- I saw blood on my finger. I assumed I had cut my hand. Since I didn't see a cut, and since there was no other cut on my hand when I returned from Chicago and I was with the police and I was with Nurse Paratis, there was no other cut on my hand, I assumed and -- I made an assumption and I was wrong making that assumption. Q. Were you wrong telling the police that you cut your finger before you left to go to Chicago? A. That's right. I saw a spot of blood -- Q. One question at a time. You were wrong when you told the police that you reopened that cut or that you cut it in Chicago, yes or no, you were wrong? A. I was wrong. Q. Wrong. Wrong about crucial questions given to you hours after Nicole's murder, true? MR. BAKER: This is argument. A. At the time I didn't know what was crucial. Q. Let me ask you -- MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. This is argumentative. MR. PETROCELLI: It's not argumentative. MR. BAKER: Again -- MR. PETROCELLI: Not -- absolutely not argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me back up here. You testified on Friday this was the first time that you were substantively interviewed, sit-down interview, with the police detectives? A. That's right. Q. You've never ever been interviewed in connection with the murder? A. That's right. Q. You've never been interviewed in connection with the murder of your ex-wife? A. Correct. Q. You were there not to assume anything, you were there to tell the truth, right? A. Yes. But I did assume some things. Q. And by the way, while you were assuming things, you said in the interview that you were the number one target, didn't you? A. Yes. Q. You didn't know what to say to the police about the cut on the finger, true, Mr. Simpson? A. I knew what to say about when I got it. I think I was emphatic to the police when I got it. I also was emphatic with them on numerous occasions, even before we did the official interview, that I had thought that I was bleeding the night before, but I never saw a cut. Q. I want to talk about what you said to the police in this interview. Not on numerous other occasions. Okay? A. Okay. Q. You had a real problem coming back from Chicago with a cut on your hand and being questioned about the murder of Nicole, didn't you? A. I wouldn't have viewed it as a problem, no. Q. And you had no real explanation for that cut, correct? A. Incorrect. Q. You had no explanation for why blood was found at your house, right? A. At my house? Q. Yes. A. I don't know. Q. Now, the police told you that they found blood at your house? A. Yes. Q. They said there's blood on the driveway, right? A. Possibly. Q. They said there's blood in the car, right? A. They may have. Q. They didn't tell you about any blood at Bundy, correct? A. I'm pretty sure -- I don't recall -- I remember -- Q. Okay. A. -- a police officer saying to me while I was handcuffed about blood everywhere, and I don't recall if he specifically said where. Q. While you were talking about why all the police and media were at your house, right? A. No. Q. When you showed up there? A. No, we were talking about why I was handcuffed. Q. The police told you about blood they found at Rockingham, true? A. I don't recall. I remember him saying there was blood everywhere and he -- I saw police things -- Q. Let me read it to you. Page 31. (Reading.). "Well, there's blood at your house, in the driveway. And that -- foot step. We've got a search warrant and we're going to go and get the blood. "A. Sure. "Q. We found some in your house. "A. Oh. "Q. Is that your blood that's dripped there? "A. If it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave." A. Yes? Q. Now, when the police told you they found blood at Rockingham, you told them if they found blood there, that's your blood, that you dripped it there, right, that's what -- A. Yeah, I assumed that, yes. Q. Was that an assumption? A. Yes. Q. An important question like that and you just made an assumption? A. Well, I saw -- Q. Is that what you're saying? A. I made it clear to them that I saw a spot of blood. I didn't tell them that I dripped blood in my Bronco or the driveway. If I had, I would have told them I didn't see any blood in any of those places. I saw one drop of blood and some blood on my pinky which I told them, and so I assumed -- Q. You also told them, sir, if that -- if it's your blood dripped on the driveway -- A. I don't know if I specifically -- Q. -- and the Bronco, that it's what you must have dripped running around, true or untrue? A. I don't believe that's what was implied by that answer. Q. Well, when I said, sir, is that your blood that's dripped there, referring to the driveway and in your house, you said, if it's dripped, it's what I dripped running around trying to leave. Now you were referring to, when you said that, to the driveway and your house, right? A. I assumed -- I knew I was bleeding. I told them that I saw a drop of blood and -- in only one place on my counter. If it was elsewhere and it was mine, maybe that's when it happened. I don't know because I don't -- only saw it in one place and I saw no cut and I saw no other blood. Q. Now, you told the police that you cut your finger -- excuse me -- that you saw blood on your finger in the kitchen, right? A. That's right. Q. You testified at your deposition that there was a little dab or speck of blood under the fingernail of your left finger, right? A. I don't believe I said that. Q. You don't believe you said that there was a little blood on your pinky of your left hand? A. I believe I said that. Q. Okay. And you also said that a little droplet fell to the kitchen counter? A. No, I said I saw a drop on the kitchen counter. Q. How did it get there? A. I assumed -- since I saw some on my finger and saw a drop there, I assumed it came from me, but since I wasn't cut or bleeding anymore than that -- Q. Okay. A. -- you know, I was trying to leave, I wasn't thinking about it. Q. So you saw blood on the counter, right? A. I saw what I thought was blood on my counter. Q. At the same time that you're seeing blood on your finger, right? A. Yes, on my pinky fingernail. Q. And you then, you said in your depo, took a towel and cleaned the blood off and threw it away? A. I took a piece of paper from a towel rack, my paper towel rack, yes. Q. And then threw it away? A. I assume so. I don't know, I was talking to Kato and I was walking out the front door then. Q. So you told the police that, no question about that in your mind, there's blood coming from you someplace on the evening of June 12, correct? A. Once again, that would have been an assumption because since I saw a drop of blood on my counter, and I saw a drop of blood on my pinky, I assumed it came from me. I saw no other blood coming from anywhere. I didn't see it bleed beyond that. But I did make an assumption. Q. Did you -- did you assume that it was your blood, sir? A. I assumed that, at the time, it was my blood, yes. Q. You have -- you don't have any reason to believe it's somebody else's blood? A. I assumed it was my blood. Q. You have no reason to believe that it's anybody else's blood? A. I assumed it was my blood. Q. Now, tell the jury how you cut yourself such to have blood that was on the counter and blood was on the finger? A. I don't know. As I said, I didn't feel the cut, I didn't see any other blood anywhere, and when I -- I was talking to Kato at the time, and I saw a drop of blood on my counter and I looked at my hand and saw a drop of blood on my pinky, and that's all I saw. Q. You have no idea how blood got on you that night; is that what you're saying? A. Yes. THE COURT: Okay. 10 minutes, ladies and gentlemen. Bring the jury back in exactly 10 minutes. (Recess.) (Jurors resumed their respective seats.) MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, your testimony is that in the evening of June 12, 1994, the only blood you ever saw that day and evening was a little bit on your pinky and on the kitchen counter? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered, argumentative MR. PETROCELLI: That -- THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did you see any blood anywhere else at all in the house, on the driveway, or in the car? A. No, not that I recall. Q. Now, you're positive that the blood that you saw was on your pinky, not on any other finger? A. Yes. Q. And you're positive it was your left hand, right? A. Yeah, pretty sure that's where it was. Q. And you did not tell the police, sir, about any pinky cut, did you? A. No. Q. You didn't tell the police that you cut your pinky, right? A. No. Q. And you didn't tell the police that you saw blood on your pinky, right? A. I know I did, possibly more than once. Q. In the statement you didn't tell the police, the tape recorded statement, anything about a pinky, correct? A. I -- possibly not, but I don't know, I don't -- I haven't read it to that detail. Q. Well, you want to take a look at the page where you discuss the blood in the kitchen, at line 3, and tell me if in describing that you saw some blood on your -- in the kitchen, at that point, if you mentioned anything about a pinky? A. In this, no. Q. Okay. A. I mean I don't see it there. Q. The discussion you were having about a cut finger, with the police, was in reference to a large -- large cut on the back of your middle finger, right? A. I know we talked about that, yes. Q. And in all the discussions about your finger being cut, with the police, the reference was to the middle finger, correct? A. I remember we talked about that, yes. Q. Okay. And there's nothing in the statement about a pinky, right? A. No, I don't believe so. But I know I told them that on more than one occasion. Q. Now, when you left to go to the airport, you got there and got on the plane and you sat down in first class, right? A. At some point, yes. Q. And nobody sat next to you, right? A. I don't believe so. Q. And it was the lights go out on a redeye flight and most folks go to sleep? MR. BAKER: Object. THE WITNESS: I would assume so. MR. BAKER: Calls for speculation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You're a frequent first class flyer on redeye flights, right? A. Yes. Q. You see that most of the time, people in the cabin are sleeping, right? A. A lot of people -- some people read, some people sleep. I tend to try to sleep and read. I do a little bit of both. Q. You didn't sleep that night, right? A. I think I dozed a little bit, yes. Q. For how long? A. I don't know. Q. Couple hours? A. I don't know. I couldn't even tell you how long the flight was because I kind of -- I was reading, I dozed, I was reading. The captain came back. I was reading, I dozed, you know, just a little bit of each. Q. So a four-hour flight, you think you slept two hours? A. Maybe, maybe an hour. Q. Hour to two? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. A. Yeah. Q. You didn't display your left hand to anyone on the airplane, did you? A. No. Q. When you landed in Chicago, it was about 6 a.m. Chicago time? A. I would have guessed so. Q. You were met there by a Hertz representative to take you over to the airport, right? A. No. Q. Take you to the hotel? Excuse me. A. Yes. Q. This is Chicago -- O'Hare Airport? A. That's right. Q. You're going to a hotel that was then called the Chicago O'Hare Plaza? A. That's correct. Q. Now called the Windham hotel? A. I don't know. Q. In any event, you had never seen this person who showed up to pick you up, right? A. I don't believe so. Q. Okay. And when he met you at the gate -- A. Yes. Q. -- you came off the plane with your black grip and your suit -- your O.J.S suit bag? A. Yes. Q. And you walked down to the baggage claim area to pick up the Louis Vuitton and golf bag? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Before the baggage got there, you sat down on the bench with this fellow who's name we've since learned is Jim Merrill? A. Yes. Q. M-e-r-r-i-l-l. Hertz employee, right? A. Yes. Q. This was a Hertz function you were going to? A. That's correct. Q. And when the baggage arrived on the carousel, you left your two items that you carried off the plane with Merrill, and you went over to the carousel area to pick up the other two items, correct? A. I don't recall. I know I carried some; he carried some. Q. I'm just focusing on the time when you're waiting for the luggage, right? You with me? A. Yeah, I was signing autographs, waiting for the luggage. Q. So what I'm getting to is this: Merrill is waiting on the bench with two of the pieces you came off the plane with, and you went on your own to the baggage carousel to pick up the golf bag and the Louis Vuitton bag, true or untrue? A. I don't recall that. I just know he carried two items and I carried two items. Q. Do you recall that or not? A. No. Q. If Merrill said that happened, you wouldn't quarrel with that, would you? A. No. Q. Okay. And you were out of Merrill's view for a couple of minutes, right? A. No, no, this was -- was as close as almost you and I are. Q. Couple of minutes it took you to go get your stuff and come back? A. We were about -- the baggage rack was about where your counsel table is and the bench was about here where we're all in one open room. Q. You picked up the golf bag and the Louis Vuitton bag, and carrying those items walked to the waiting car? A. Yeah, it was right outside the door, maybe ten yards from us. Q. And you put those items -- the golf bag went in the trunk, right? A. Yeah. He had a truck. It went in the back of his truck. Q. And you then drove to the hotel, correct? A. That's correct. Q. Hotel is only about five minutes away, right? A. It didn't seem much more than ten minutes. Q. Pretty close to the airport? A. Yes. Q. Now, when you got to the airport -- excuse me. When you got to the hotel, you made arrangements with Mr. Merrill to pick you up the next day -- later on that day, after you had some sleep, to go to the golf event, correct? A. No. Q. You had -- you had him -- you exchanged phone numbers with him, right? A. Yeah, he gave me his number. It was already arranged that he would pick me up the next morning to take me to the golf course. Q. You were expecting him to come back in a few hours to get you and take you to the golf event? A. That's correct. Q. And you got from Mr. Merrill some telephone numbers, right? A. Yes. Q. And you got from Mr. Merrill his work number, correct? A. That's correct. Q. And you also got from Mr. Merrill his home phone number, correct? A. Well, I think I got his mobile phone and his home phone. I don't believe I got his work number. It may have already been in my travel folder. Q. May have been in his car? A. I don't remember getting -- Q. Basically you had all his phone numbers? A. I think I had them. Q. Excuse me? A. I think I had them on my travel thing, I believe, and I think he may have added his cell phone number. Q. And you asked for that? A. I don't know if I asked for it or not. I think he just gave it to me. Q. Then you checked into the hotel, correct? A. Yes. Q. And you left your golf bag with Merrill in the truck? A. That's right. Q. And you took the other items with you, correct? A. Yes. Q. And you were expecting to see Merrill in a few hours, correct? A. Five hours or so. Q. It was about -- about 6:30 a.m. Chicago time? A. That's correct. Q. And he was going to pick you up about 10 o'clock? A. I don't know -- I thought something was going on at -- I thought he was picking me up about 11, I forgot there was a lunch thing -- that he was going to pick me up at the golf course. Q. Now, you told the person at the front desk that you did not want any phone calls, correct? A. I don't know if I told her that or not. I may have, but I don't -- I don't -- I don't recall saying that to her, no. Q. You sure? A. I don't -- I don't ever recall ever telling people don't put calls through. Q. You didn't tell her that you didn't want to be disturbed cause you only had a couple hours to get some sleep? A. I may have. Q. Did you say that? A. I may have, yes. Q. You may have? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Then you went up to your room, and you didn't unpack all your clothes, right? A. When you say unpack, I took my suit bag and hung it up. I took my -- the two golf outfits that I had in my Louis Vuitton bag and hung it up, you know, took out my toiletries. I did what I always do. Q. You got in bed, right? A. Yes. Q. And laid down for a while, correct? A. Yeah, I may have read a little bit. I tend to read myself to sleep. MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have the photos of the hotel room, Steve. (Mr. Foster displays exhibits.) Q. Now, that was a suite that they set up for you, right? A. I believe so. Q. Suite 915? A. Yes. Q. And the bedroom had a phone next to it, correct, the bedroom had a bedside table next to the bed, there's a phone on the -- on the bedside table, true? A. Yes. Q. And there is no telephone in the bathroom which is in the next room, right? A. I don't believe so, but I don't recall. MR. PETROCELLI: What exhibit number? MR. FOSTER: 1319. (Exhibit 1319 was displayed.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You can look at the monitor, Mr. Simpson. A. Yeah. Q. That's the bed you slept in, right? A. Yes. Q. And this is the phone next to the bed, right? A. Yes. Q. And you slept for a little bit, right? A. Yes. Q. And you dropped some blood while you were sleeping in the middle of those sheets, didn't you, sir, from your bleeding finger, right? A. I would doubt that. Q. And there was blood found in the middle or center area of the sheets, right? You're aware of that? A. I don't know where, but I heard that there was a drop of blood or something on the sheets, yes. Q. Now, just jumping ahead for a second. After you received the call from Detective Phillips notifying you of Nicole's death, you hurried to get out of there, and at no time after that call did you ever get back into bed, correct, Mr. Simpson? A. Into, no. Q. You didn't lay down and take a nap or anything, right? A. Into the bed, no. I did lay back on the bed at one point, and was on the bed every time I was on the telephone. Q. Okay. Now, Detective Phillips called around 8 o'clock Chicago time, correct? A. That's correct. Q. And told you that your ex-wife had been killed, right? A. Among other things, yes. Q. And said your children were at the police station, right? A. Yes. Q. And you said, what do you mean? What do you mean? Words to that effect, right? True? A. Yeah. Q. You never once said to Detective Phillips, are you sure, are you sure, you never said that, did you? A. Am I sure of what? Q. Are you sure it was Nicole? A. No. Q. As opposed to somebody else? A. No. Q. You didn't say that, did you? A. No, I didn't. Q. And you didn't ask Detective Phillips questions about how it could have happened, whether it was a car accident or burglary or whatever? A. I think -- Q. You didn't ask any of those questions? A. About a burglary and a car accident, no. I think my first question was, what do you mean, what are you saying, what do you mean. And he immediately told me, we can't tell you anything, we're trying to investigate, we're trying to find out, O.J., there's nothing we know now, your kids are safe, and words to that effect. Q. And after he told you those things, Mr. Simpson, you did not continue to pepper him with questions about how it could have happened and was it a this, was it a that, you didn't go on, right? A. No. I called back though, and then whoever I talked to next told me the same thing. Q. Told you they didn't know anything? A. That there was nothing they can tell me. Same thing they told me all day long. Q. You then got on the phone to make this arrangement to get back to Los Angeles, right? A. Yes. Q. And you talked to Cathy Randa, your assistant, to help you get a flight back to L.A.? A. I think on numerous times I did. Q. Several times, right? A. Yes. Q. And you -- she got on the phone with you on a three-way conference call to a travel agent that worked for the Hertz Company, a woman by the name of Donna, was it Manzion? A. You know, I really don't recall any of that. I just know -- Q. You don't recall? A. No. Q. Okay. And while you were on the telephone call with Cathy and this travel person, you put the phone down and you went into the bathroom that adjoins that bedroom, true? A. I don't know. I know at a couple of times the people who were trying to help me on the phone said it would take a while, that did I want them to call back or would I hold. And I would be running, trying to pack, and I was in the bathroom and back, and I was on and off the phone so many times because -- I think the flight that took I arranged, not Cathy. Cathy had arranged for me to take a 10 o'clock flight, and I found a 9:15 flight. I was back and forth to the phone so many times then, and on a few occasions I know the person said it would take a while, so they held while I was -- and I was running back and forth to the phone. Q. Let me stop you there. That exhibit we just had on the TV monitor, of the bed, was Exhibit 1319. And now we're going to put up on the monitor, Exhibit 2156 (Exhibit 2156 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, this is the bathroom that adjoins that bedroom, right? A. Yes. Q. There's no phone in that bathroom, right? A. I don't see any. Q. And you went in that bathroom while you were on the phone, or between calls or whatever, getting your plane back, and you went and broke a glass, right? A. Yeah, a glass broke at one point when I was in there. Q. What do you mean a glass broke? You broke it, right? A. Yes. Q. Tell the jury exactly how you broke the glass. A. I couldn't tell you. I don't know. Q. Give us -- Give us your best recollection. How did you break it, sir? A. I think I was very emotional when I went in there at one point, and during that point a glass broke as I was going back and forth. It was a very emotional time for me. Q. Pretend this is a glass. (Indicating to a water bottle.) A. Yes. Q. I wish I had a glass. I was supposed to have one. Let's use this. You know those hotel glasses are kind of thick, right? A. Yes. Q. Sturdy glasses. They're sort of short tumblers? A. Some are, some aren't. Q. That's the kind of glass they had there? A. I don't recall. Q. How did you break it? What did you do? A. I don't know. At one point going back and forth, a glass broke. I couldn't tell you if I was drinking water, or if I slammed it down or if I just knocked it over. I really couldn't tell you. It just -- as I was going back and forth to the plane, trying to get a flight out of Chicago, trying to get my stuff packed, a glass broke. Q. That's not a normal occurrence for you, glasses to break, right? A. I've broken glasses. I think everybody here has broken glasses before. Q. You know when you break a glass, right? A. I know when I broke a glass. Q. When did you break this glass? A. I don't know. Q. At what point in time did you break this glass, tell us exactly when it occurred? A. As I've told you on numerous occasions, Mr. Petrocelli, it was during the course of going back and forth trying to pack, trying to get my flight out of there, I was going back and forth, back and forth. In the midst of that, at one of the times I was in and out of that bathroom, the glass broke. Q. Well, the glasses -- you see the coffee, condiments and the coffee machine there, and flowers; you see all that there? (Indicating to exhibit 2156) A. Yes. Q. Now, is this the way it looked when you were there that -- A. I don't remember. Q. You don't question this, though, do you? A. No. Q. Okay. Now, you didn't take the glass and throw it at these items here, right? A. No. Q. Okay. And you didn't take the glass and throw it at the mirror, right? A. I don't recall. Q. And you didn't throw it at the shower, did you? A. No. Q. And you didn't throw it into the toilet, did you? A. No. Q. You didn't throw it on the floor, did you? A. No. Q. You didn't throw it at anything, right? A. I don't believe so, no. Q. Okay. And if you didn't throw the glass -- excuse me. Did you step on it? A. No. Q. Did you put it down on the ground and step on it? A. No. Q. Did you kick it? A. No. Q. Did you do anything with the glass in sort of an act of rage or violence, taking the glass and slamming it down on the counter? Did you do that? A. Rage of violence, no. Q. Yeah. Did you slam it down on the counter? A. I may have. Q. You may have? A. Yes. Q. Okay. That's the closest you can remember is that you may have taken the glass and gone like that; is that what you're saying. A. I may have. Q. Okay. Is that the best you can do for this jury? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did -- Now, when you think you've -- you may have done that, what area of the bathroom counter did that happen, sir? MR. BAKER: We now have elevated it to happening when he says it may have happened. There's no basis for that question. THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer if you can. A. I just recall my toothbrush and glass right around the area that may -- what appears to be an ashtray, I just know there was a piece of glass on the floor, I believe, and glass was in that area, and, you know, it wasn't the focal point of where I was at that time. It was just a glass there. I moved it. I just know that I somehow moved it into the sink so that I could get my stuff. And my focus was on trying to get a flight out of Chicago and get home. Q. When that glass broke, you got -- you went back to the telephone and told the person on the line that you just broke a glass, didn't you? A. I don't know. I don't know what I said to these people. I just knew -- Q. You remember saying that? A. No, I don't. Q. Okay. And when the glass broke, you said one piece landed on the floor, right? A. I don't know. It may have been two pieces. Q. Two pieces? A. It seemed to me I picked something up off the floor, 'cause my first concern was that there was stuff on the floor, and I was -- I just picked it up. As I said, I was in such a rush that it wasn't anything that I focused on. Q. Now, what about on the counter, where were the glass chips on -- or glass shards on the counter? A. I just know it was on this side. Q. What side? Right side? A. Facing -- Q. The picture? A. Facing on the side where the toilet paper seemed to be. Q. Right here? A. I don't know. It was in that area. It was on this side of the sink. I don't know specifically where each piece of glass was. I don't know. Q. Okay. And when that happened, sir, right away did you notice blood? A. I don't believe so. Q. Okay. And after that happened, sir, what did you do? A. I don't know. I was going back and forth to the phone, and at one point I noticed blood and I took some of that and put it around, that paper that was right there, and I was going back and forth. Q. What paper? A. I believe it was the toilet paper. Q. Toilet paper? A. Yeah. Q. So the sequence of events is you think you may have slammed the glass down, you may have broken it, you went to the phone, you picked up a piece of glass off the floor, or two. What did you do with the glass up on the counter? A. I think basically my recall, and I'm strictly taking a shot here. I -- at some point when I was trying to get it in the sink, I think I cut my hand, but I couldn't tell you when. I was back and forth to the phone so many times, and I was also packing and at some point in there I cut my hand. Q. Now, you didn't cut your hand when you slammed the glass down, right? A. I don't believe I cut it when the glass first broke. Q. You keep saying glass first broke? A. Yes. Q. You don't know how you did it? A. No. Q. And with the glass up here, you testified in your deposition that you began to sweep that glass all the way across into the sink, true? A. I don't know about all the way across. I would imagine that even where you are is about 12 inches or so from the sink. Q. From the toilet paper area to the sink you think is about 12 inches? A. Yeah, I would say there. (Indicating to photo.) Q. Okay. A. As I said, it's on the toilet paper side of the sink. I wouldn't say it's as far as the toilet paper. I don't -- it was just glass in that area. I used possibly that towel there, I guess, to -- Q. Now, when you did the sweeping of the glass into the sink, did you put anything over your hand to prevent it from getting cut? A. I think I used a towel to do that. Q. And you wrapped the towel around your hand? A. No, I don't -- Q. What did you do with the towel? A. I don't know. I just took something. I may have been trying to flap it over. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It was not a focal point of what I was doing. I could not tell you with any real certainty exactly how I did it. All I know is that at some point I was packing my stuff, I made sure the glass was out of my way as I was putting my things back in my overnight kit, I was going back and forth to the airplane -- I mean to the telephone, and somewhere in there my hand was cut. Q. Did you put the towel around your hand? That's what I'm trying to figure out. A. I don't know. Q. Did you take the towel and put it in front of your hand? A. I don't recall. Q. Now, you're right-handed, you said, right? A. Yeah. Q. So did you take your right hand and sweep the glass into the sink? A. I don't recall. Q. And you cut your hand when you did the sweeping of the glass into the sink? A. I assumed so; at some point I was cleaning up the glass, a piece cut my -- my hand. Q. Now, the glass was swept from the countertop into the sink, right? A. I think I got most of it into the sink, yes. Q. And you picked one or two pieces up and put those in the sink, right? A. Yes. Q. And you didn't cut your right hand doing that, did you? A. No, I didn't. Q. You have marks on your left hand, right? A. Yes, I have marks on both hands. Q. Well, that night you had a large injury on your left hand, right? A. That's correct. Q. And it's on the back of your left finger, right? A. That's correct. Q. And, in fact, you also had -- for the jury, we're talking about the middle finger where the scar is, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, your testimony right now is that you sustained that injury, that still bears the scar, while