Domestic Violence Transcripts August 4, 1997 9 a.m. - 10 a.m. GUESTS: JULIE GOLDSCHEID, STAFF ATTORNEY, N.O.W. LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND The following are excerpts from the viewer call-in portion of the program. Violence Against Women Act Witnessing an Abusive Relationship Reporting Domestic Violence Obtaining a Temporary Restraining Order Protecting Children from Domestic Violence Legal Steps in Combatting Domestic Violence JUNE GRASSO: Good morning. I'm June Grasso. Welcome to Legal Cafe, Court TV's daily wakeup call to the law in your life. On Mondays, we look at families. Whether traditional, single-parent, or broken, families give rise to many complex legal problems. This morning, we'll address one of the more troubling issues, domestic violence. We'll have an expert here to discuss your legal options, including protective orders. Joining me now to discuss the legal side of domestic violence and protective orders is Julie Goldscheid, a staff attorney with the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund. Julie was also a social worker for 10 years, so she's seen these cases from two different viewpoints. Thanks for joining us this morning, Julie. MS. GOLDSCHEID: Thank you. MS. GRASSO: You know, we've heard a lot recently about domestic violence, a lot more. It used to be in the shadows. Now it seems to be in the spotlight, but there are still a lot of misconceptions about it. What do you think some of the biggest misconceptions are? MS. GOLDSCHEID: There are so many, but just to name a few, one is that domestic violence is not prevalent. Unfortunately, it's all too common, and we don't necessarily have the best stats to show us exactly how many women are battered every year, because so many women don't come forward and talk about it. But even conservative estimates show that about one million women a year are battered, so it's very prevalent. People also all too frequently think that women ask for it or women provoke the violence, and the dynamics of domestic violence are such that a woman cannot necessarily control or stop her batterer from beating her. MS. GRASSO: And other misconception is that it lurks in certain income groups. Is that true, or does it cut across all different income levels? MS. GOLDSCHEID: Again, it's unfortunate, but domestic violence cuts across all income levels, all socioeconomic groups, all races, all classes. There's so much stigma associated with domestic violence. Hopefully there's less now that there was, say, 20 years ago, but there's so much stigma associated with it and so much fear and fear for women's safety that all too frequently they don't come forward, so they do go to emergency rooms, doctors, teachers when they're walking around the neighborhood and wear sunglasses to cover up black eyes. MS. GRASSO: Now what -- if someone is hit by their husband or their live-in love or whatever, should you take action at that point? I mean, I think people say, "Well, you know, it was a bad day, it was a bad fight, he was on edge," but is that the time to take -- should you move out right away, should you go to the police right then? MS. GOLDSCHEID: The response for each woman is going to be different, and it depends on her particular circumstance. What's really important is that she takes immediate steps to become safe, and that's going to vary, depending on her situation and depending on the batterer. She will be the best judge of that, but if you're a friend or if you know someone who's talking to someone who's having this problem or if you yourself are having the problem, what's important is to figure out, most importantly, how to be safe. If you're in fear of danger, call the police, call the local domestic violence counselor, domestic violence hotline to find out about resources, but get on the phone first and foremost to make sure that you're safe. MS. GRASSO: Julie -- and, especially, we're going to draw on your experience as a social worker for 10 years -- is it ever the case where it happens once and it's a one-time incident and that's it? MS. GOLDSCHEID: Certainly there are instances where it happens once, but the evidence shows that it tends to escalate and that for all that women may think, "Oh, this is just a one-time incident, he just had a bad day, or whatever," the evidence seems to show that it escalates over time and frequently becomes more and more violent as time goes on, as well. MS. GRASSO: And we're going to be talking about legal solutions to these problems in just a few moments, and we're going to take a break right now, but we'll open up the phone lines in a few minutes, so if you're involved in an abusive relationship or a survivor of one, please give us a call at the Legal Cafe. We'll keep your name and location confidential. VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ACT MS. GRASSO: Welcome back to Legal Cafe. I'm June Grasso. Domestic violence is a huge problem in America. Some call it an epidemic. This morning, we're discussing your legal options in an abusive relationship. For many, the first step is to file for an order of protection, which is a matter of state law, but in 1994, the federal government enacted the Violence Against Women Act, and here are the law's highlights. First, the law creates a national domestic abuse hotline, 800-799-SAFE. It operates 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The law also requires every state to honor protection orders that are issued in other states, an important tool for enforcement. Finally, the law creates a civil rights cause of action so that victims can sue for damages in court. Before we go to the phones, I want to point out that the national hotline is not for emergencies. It provides names of shelters and domestic violence programs. Julie, so if there is an emergency, is 911 still the best option? MS. GOLDSCHEID: It's the best thing to do, especially depending on -- services are different depending on what city you're living in. It's usually the best course of action. MS. GRASSO: Now, also I want to just touch upon the issue of enforcement, because we've all heard the stories about the policemen who come to the door, don't do anything about it even though there is some kind of order of protection in the household, and then something horrible happens when the policeman leaves. Is it getting any better, especially now with federal laws to back things up? MS. GOLDSCHEID: You're right in pointing out that the 1994 Violence Against Women Act was a very historic moment, because it was the first time that our federal government enacted a comprehensive law addressing the problem. We at NOW legal defense fund were instrumental in getting that law passed, and one of the things that it authorizes is a substantial amount of money for funding for training police and law enforcement officers, so as that money trickles down, we're seeing more and more police departments, local prosecutors, doing a better job. Unfortunately, we still hear horror stories -- and there are other mechanisms that are in place to try to fill those gaps. The provision you talked about requiring states to enforce and honor the protective orders issued in other states is one of those mechanisms, so that it's one less way that police can turn their back on a woman in trouble. MS. GRASSO: And it does help, doesn't it, to have that order of protection there if a police officer comes? It's important to have it, to be able to point to it, and to have some authority backing up what you're saying. MS. GOLDSCHEID: It's important for several reasons. One is it's documentation. It helps a woman's credibility. It shows the police that there's a history of domestic violence in a way that's beyond -- I hate to say just a woman's word, but it's documentation. Documentation always helps. And another piece of advice is if a woman is in a battering situation, to document it, tell her friends, tell her family -- again, to build evidence and to help her credibility. MS. GRASSO: All right. Well, let's go to our phones and see what our viewers are interested in finding out. WITNESSING AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP Connie from Ohio. Welcome to Legal Cafe. Good morning, Connie. Q Hi, June. MS. GRASSO: Hi. Do you have a question? Q Yes. I have a 21-year-old son, and he beats his girlfriend, and she's 20, and I can't keep them apart, and it's worse and worse, and I'm just at my end. I don't know what to do. MS. GRASSO: Tell me something, do they live together? Q Off and on. He lives with his brother, and she's there, and, I mean, they got in a fight so bad that she hit him with a bottle and stabbed him and he beat her and, I mean, they just won't stay away from each other, and I don't know what to do. MS. GRASSO: And have the police been called in to these situations? Q Oh, many times. MS. GRASSO: Many times. And -- but they continue to have a relationship? Q Oh, by the next day they're back together. MS. GRASSO: Okay. Now, Connie, one more question. Is this sporadic, it erupts every once in a while, or is it constant, ongoing -- Q Every weekend. MS. GRASSO: Really? Is drinking involved? Q Yes. MS. GRASSO: Okay. Let me go to Julie Goldscheid. Julie, alcohol and drugs are often involved in these kinds of things. Do you have any suggestions for Connie? MS. GOLDSCHEID: Have you spoken with -- have you spoken with your daughter-in-law, or -- MS. GRASSO: It's not the daughter-in-law, it's the girlfriend. MS. GOLDSCHEID: It's the girlfriend. I'm sorry. Q Yes, 20 times a day. I mean, she's just, I think, obsessed with him. She refuses to stay away from him. MS. GRASSO: Well, you can provide her with information, you can tell her you're concerned. You can give both of them information and talk to the police, and continually stressing how concerned you are and how dangerous the situation is can certainly help. Also, if you can talk to their friends, have their friends talk to them, other people who they might listen to, and talk to law enforcement officers that can hopefully help. MS. GRASSO: Well, you know, this points up the problem of a third party looking in and seeing a situation that's volatile and really feeling helpless about it. She has talked to both parties. What would talking to the police do? The police will probably say there's no order of protection there, you know, we come when we get called, but what can they really do? MS. GOLDSCHEID: Again, you point out -- you make a good point if there is no order of protection when the police are called in, but what they can do is enforce the laws to the fullest ability even without the order of protection. If they are called in when there's a violent situation happening, they can enforce the laws at that point, even if there's no order of protection involved. MS. GRASSO: All right, Connie, thanks so much for calling with that sensitive situation. We appreciate hearing from you. REPORTING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE Our next caller on the line is Linda from Florida. Welcome to Legal Cafe, Linda. Do you have a question? Q Yes, I do have a question. Once you've been putting up with physical abuse for almost 10 years, and you have been covering for your abuser at the hospital, at the emergency room, making up absurd stories that no one even questions, and then you decide, that's it, the next time I'm calling the police, I'm out of here, and how do you have any credibility when it's right there in the hospital records that you fell in the bathtub and broke four ribs, and you said it, you signed all the papers at the hospital, and no one's -- you have no credibility. MS. GRASSO: What's the answer to Linda's question? Suppose after 10 years you say, "I've had it. I want to get an order of protection." You want to go to the court, you want to have some verification, and all your records say otherwise. MS. GOLDSCHEID: As soon as a woman feels comfortable in coming forward, she should come forward and talk to, as I said before, friends, family, other members of the community, clergy, whoever. More and more, we are coming to understand the dynamics of domestic violence so that people will look at hospital records and may -- they have more of a chance now than 20 years ago -- see that a history of broken bones, bruises, even if they are disguised as something else, may indicate domestic violence. We're realizing that more and more. So it should -- the fact that you haven't come forward doesn't mean you shouldn't. You should come forward whenever you are ready to. MS. GRASSO: We're a little more sophisticated nowadays. Now, can a person go get an order of protection and you have to sign an affidavit. Do you really need evidence at that point to get that initial order of protection? Can you just sign the affidavit which says, "I've been the victim of domestic abuse for this long, I'm in fear," and the judge would -- I mean, ordinarily, that's kind of easy to get under those circumstances. MS. GOLDSCHEID: The state laws for granting orders of protection vary. As you said earlier, it's a state-by-state thing, so it's very important that women check the laws in each state, and you should talk to your local domestic violence group to find out exactly what the laws are or the local police to find out what the laws are. Frequently, you ca get an order of protection particularly if you're at risk of immediate danger or imminent danger. MS. GRASSO: And we certainly encourage you, though, no matter what you've done in the past, that now's the time to change things and to go and seek protection. Thanks so much for giving us that call. OBTAINING A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER MS. GRASSO: Welcome back to Legal Cafe as we continue our look at domestic violence. We've been talking a great deal about the different kinds of legal help you can get if you're in an abusive relationship. Now let's outline a victim's legal grounds for obtaining a temporary restraining order. First, the victim must swear to an affidavit which states the reason or reasons for the protective order. The affidavit is then filed with the clerk of the local civil court. Finally, a judge reviews the application, usually without hearing from the alleged abuser, and a restraining order is often issued on the spot for the same day. On the line is Jane from New Jersey. Good morning, Jane, and welcome to Legal Cafe. Q Good morning. MS. GRASSO: Do you have a question? Q Yes. I've been married for 27 years in an abusive relation with my husband, and I've come out in the open with it the past year. I had a restraining order last March. When I went to lift the restraining order, hoping things would work again, the judge persuaded me not to. I've been to an adviser lawyer, I've been trying to do everything but get a divorce. I have four children. Eighty percent of my married life -- we do have a lot in common, we do wonderful things together, but I don't know how to solve this anymore, because I think my husband has a hard time recognizing that he has a problem. He always blames it on something I've done. MS. GRASSO: First of all, Jane, what led you finally, after all those years, to go seek the protective order, to seek help for yourself? Q Because I've just had enough. I've -- for the past year, I've -- it's like I want people to know now. Last summer, I had a very badly bruised arm, and instead of covering up and putting long sleeves on, I had family coming, and I decided to just, you know, let them notice. It's like I wanted people to know in the end. I want something done about this, but I feel I cannot carry on the rest of my life like this. MS. GRASSO: June, have you tried to have your husband get counseling of any sort? Q I've asked him. He promised last March. I gave him a number that I got from a guidance counselor, but he refused to call it, and this last week, I've had someone come in to try and help us persuade him to do this. MS. GRASSO: Now, do you still have that protective order issued, or did you have it lifted? You said the judge -- Q No, I had a restraining order last March, and then I had it lifted. I have been very tempted to do it again in the past three weeks, but I haven't done it, because I know how angry it makes him, and I get -- I get quite afraid of how his reactions are. MS. GRASSO: Okay. Well, you've raised a couple of issues. Are you still living together, by the way? Q Yes, we are. Yes. MS. GRASSO: Okay. Let's get Julie to help. She's actually done some of the things you suggested before, in that she's been open about it now after 27 years, telling her family and friends and showing them. She wants to work it out and he doesn't want to get help. Is there any way she can push him to do that? It's the same thing -- the problem is that she's also frightened, which a lot of women must go through the same kind of thing. MS. GOLDSCHEID: A few questions. One is are you working with the local domestic violence counselor? Q No, but I have called two women's groups, and they said they would call me when there is a space for me to go into. I do go and see a psychologist, psychiatrist, who I've been seeing for years, because my nerves have become so bad through the years and I have trouble sleeping at times, and I have had advice from her, too. MS. GOLDSCHEID: It may be helpful to talk specifically with a domestic violence counselor, someone who is experienced in dealing with other women who are in exactly your same situation. If you do want to leave and take those steps, it sounds like you have looked into doing things like finding a place in a shelter -- is that what you're -- I don't know if that's what you're referring to, but there are frequently shelters available, temporary shelters available for women who are looking to leave a battering situation. A domestic violence advocate can help you negotiate what those services are in your local area. MS. GRASSO: Now, Julie, she mentioned the judge -- it seemed like he was very knowledgeable and sympathetic to the issues. He suggested that she did not get the temporary restraining order lifted. Can a judge order someone to go for counseling? Can a judge take it into his, you know, bailiwick and say "Look," to the husband, "I want you to go get counseling"? MS. GOLDSCHEID: A judge can, and that sometimes is part of a restraining order. The counseling program should be -- there certified batterers' intervention programs, and if the counseling is part of the protective order or part of the judge's order, it should be with a certified program. MS. GRASSO: So her first step would be to try to seek a specific domestic violence counselor to help her in this area. She should also, I assume, go back when she decides to make a move and get that protective order in place again. MS. GOLDSCHEID: And take whatever other steps would be helpful to make her safe. If she does feel like she -- if she does make the decision to leave and is worried about the escalating violence, which is perfectly reasonable, because violence does tend to escalate when women leave, it's really critical to take the steps beforehand to make sure she's safe and that her children are safe. MS. GRASSO: All right. Thanks so much for calling, Jane, and we wish you the best of luck with your situation. We hope you get yourself out of it. Thanks so much for calling. PROTECTING CHILDREN FROM DOMESTIC VIOLENCE Let's go back to the phones, where Carmie is on the phone from New York. Welcome to Legal Cafe, Carmie. Q I have a question. My ex, my son's father, is very violent towards his girlfriend, and I don't know how to protect my children -- MS. GRASSO: Excuse me, Carmie. Your son's -- your ex-husband, who is the father of your son, is very violent toward his girlfriend? Q Right. He's never done anything in front of the kids, but they have been there in the bedroom and playing and stuff. MS. GRASSO: And he has visitation rights, I take it -- Q Correct. MS. GRASSO: -- to your son, so you don't know what to do, because you're afraid that while your children are over there, they're being exposed to this. Q Right. MS. GRASSO: Okay. Julie? MS. GOLDSCHEID: Have you spoken with him or with his girlfriend about it? Q I've spoken to them both. Right at this moment, she finally had him arrested, and I don't know if she's going to go back to him after this or what, and I don't know if it's going to go on with the next relationship he's in. MS. GRASSO: Carmie, has he been violent toward your children? Has he actually, in other words, hit them or in any way affected them? Q No, no, but there's a lot of drinking involved, and I don't want to wait for the day that -- MS. GRASSO: You're right. Absolutely. What can she do for her children? Can she get a protective order, or -- MS. GOLDSCHEID: It could be worth -- I don't know what you're agreement is, the visitation agreement, but it's possible that you might be able to get that visitation agreement amended to protect the children, whatever the -- you know, you need to be the judge of what the particular terms would be, whether it's stopping visitation or having supervised visitation as long as there's violence going on. MS. GRASSO: So would she go back to family court, or would she go -- or would she actually go to get a protective order? MS. GOLDSCHEID: It would depend on the jurisdiction. If she wanted to amend the visitation order, she would probably go back to the court that issued the visitation order and maybe introduce evidence, if she could get a copy, say, of -- if the girlfriend got a protective order or if there was evidence of his arrest, that perhaps could be introduced as evidence to help her amend her visitation order in family court. She also potentially could get a protective on behalf of the children, but that depends on the state law, and it's important to talk to local -- again, local advocates or a local lawyer. MS. GRASSO: Is there a difference? Because I know that I've seen situations where there are -- where there's visitation rights, and if there's abuse toward the children, actual physical abuse of the children, the visitation rights are pulled back, at least for a time. Does it make a difference if there's abuse in the situation -- in other words, the children are just seeing it, rather than being the subjects of the abuse? MS. GOLDSCHEID: Obviously, the case is stronger if the children are being the subjects of the abuse, but increasingly courts are recognizing that when there's abuse in a household, that in and of itself witnessing the abuse is very harmful to the children, and certainly poses a risk that the children are going to be next. MS. GRASSO: All right, Carmie, so you have several options there. Thanks for calling us. LEGAL STEPS IN COMBATTING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE MS. GRASSO: Our time this hour is almost up, so let's highlight some of the key legal steps you can take if you're in an abusive relationship. This is the National Organization for Women's House Blend for Fighting Domestic Violence. First and foremost, call 911 if there is an emergency. You can also call your local police precinct. Next, tell your friends and family about the abuse. It's a tough thing to do, but other people can often help the situation. And, finally, if you do leave home, make sure you take your children with you. And our last caller for this hour is Lisa from Wisconsin. Thanks for holding on for so long, Lisa. Welcome to Legal Cafe. Q Hi there. I just have a comment. I work for a domestic violence group in Wisconsin, and my comment is that domestic violence will change when we, as a society, stop asking, "Why doesn't she leave?" Instead, we need to make the abusers accountable and responsible for their actions. MS. GRASSO: What do you suggest is the number one thing a woman should do if she's being abused in a situation? Q They need to recognize that they need to get out of the situation and tell somebody. The thing of it is that people don't realize it takes a lot of money to get our people. We need help from others -- we're a non-profit organization, and we are greatly supported by our community and by our sheriff's department. They need to tell -- they need to be honest as to what's happening to them and confront the abuser for what he's worth, or her, and make that person responsible not just legally, but make them responsible and face their actions. MS. GRASSO: Thanks so much for calling. You know, Julie, you were saying before that -- about this problem, that getting out of the situation often entails getting money, and often the woman is not the one who has the money in the relationship, so how do they handle that kind of situation? MS. GOLDSCHEID: There are an array of options, and I couldn't underscore what the caller just said strongly enough, that the economics behind domestic violence are really problematic. Women frequently don't have the economic means to leave, particularly if there are children involved, so in creating a safety plan, one of the things she wants to do is look into how and plan in advance how she can support herself and maybe options in terms of assistance from local groups or from some federal programs. Women who are working and are the victims of domestic violence and are trying to get out of the situation also can enlist the support of their employers. Companies increasingly are recognizing that many, many women in their work places are surviving domestic violence situations and that they can take steps to help and to maintain the safety of the work places. MS. GRASSO: And it's so important not to be afraid or embarrassed to tell people, because your family members can help you, too, but a lot of times people are embarrassed to tell their families. MS. GOLDSCHEID: Exactly, and women want to be sure -- and women can be the judge of who to tell, because they frequently might not want to tell one person, because they're afraid that that person would tell the batterer and might jeopardize her safety, so women want to be strategic about who they tell and how they tell them, but breaking the silence is the first step and can really be helpful, and women can find that they have a lot more support than they thought. MS. GRASSO: All right. Well, talking about this issue is never very easy, but it's necessary and we'll revisit this topic again on Legal Cafe. We'll certainly give you advance notice here on the program and our website as to when that will be. MS. GRASSO: I want to thank our guest so much, Julie Goldschied from the NOW legal defense and education fund. It's really been a difficult topic to discuss, but the more information we have out there, the better it is. And I also want to give our viewers, once again, the national hotline number. That's 1-800-799-SAFE, and though it's not an emergency number, it's a number that you can call for information about shelters and domestic violence programs. If you do have an emergency, the number to call is 911 or your local police department, and do that as soon as you need help.