Laws of Getting Married Transcripts August 11, 1997 9 a.m. - 10 a.m. GUESTS: HONORABLE DOUGLAS MCKEON, NEW YORK STATE SUPREME COURT JUDGE JIM HAMILTON, LAS VEGAS MINISTER The following are excerpts from the viewer call-in portion of the program. What Makes a Marriage Valid? Requirements for Getting Married in Las Vegas Photographers Ruined Wedding Photos Prenuptial Agreements Do I Need to Show Divorce Decree to Apply for Another Marriage License? How Does Marriage Affect Assets? Tips for Having a Smooth Wedding JUNE GRASSO: Good morning. I'm June Grasso, and welcome to Legal Cafe, Court TV's daily wakeup call to the law in your life. On Mondays, we look at the family, obviously one of the most important parts of our lives, and this morning we'll focus on getting married -- one of the first steps people take toward being a family. MS. GRASSO: Here to help me discuss them this morning is the Honorable Douglas McKeon, my guest for this hour. Judge McKeon sits on the bench in the Bronx in New York City. He's a member of the New York State Judicial Conference, an author, a lecturer, and a judge who performs marriage ceremonies -- MR. MCKEON: Many of them, yes. MS. GRASSO: The happiest part. MR. MCKEON: No divorces yet that I'm aware of. MS. GRASSO: No? Now, have you ever had a hitch in the marriage ceremony? MR. MCKEON: Not really, June. We've done them in some unusual places, from an art gallery to the back yard, on a boat, and up to now no hitches, thank goodness. MS. GRASSO: And nobody walking away at the altar -- that classic scene that you see in the movies, does that only happen in the movies? MR. MCKEON: Well, so far only in movies -- MS. GRASSO: Maybe you're a lucky -- okay, you're a lucky judge then. Different states have different requirements for getting married. MR. MCKEON: That's true. MS. GRASSO: Why is that? Why do you have to get blood tests in some states and not in others? MR. MCKEON: Well, they seem to be doing away with this concept of blood tests. Actually, the last time I looked, I thought that African-Americans in New York had to do a blood test for sickle-cell anemia, not that it could prevent them getting married, but we're getting away from that sort of a thing. Obviously, the state has an interest in who's getting married. Are they competent? Are they old enough to make a reasoned decision? And these are the kinds of things that you see in the law books throughout America or on a state-by-state basis. MS. GRASSO: What they don't tell -- I mean, it's just an age thing -- MR. MCKEON: It is. MS. GRASSO: -- they don't test you for really -- for really, you know, are you really able to -- and they don't require marriage counseling or anything like that to really see if you're really able to enter this relationship or if you know each other long enough. MR. MCKEON: But you know something, June, as you look around, you say, "Is age really the barometer?" In other words, we see couples getting divorced after 40 years, so -- so really, sometimes youth provides a rare opportunity for a successful marriage. WHAT MAKES A MARRIAGE VALID? MS. GRASSO: Now, if it varies in each state, how does a couple go about finding out what they have to do if they want to get married? MR. MCKEON: Well, I think the best place to start is down with your county clerks or your city clerk. There is a public official who is the marrying public official. I mean, judges have that authority, but we have, say, here in New York a city clerk who routinely performs marriages each and every day. MS. GRASSO: Now, suppose you don't take the right steps, you don't do the right things. Are you still married if you haven't legally, you know, dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's? MR. MCKEON: It's a very rare situation that someone's marriage would be declared void because of some slip-up. I mean, if someone is married, for instance, when they seek to marry someone else, well, that's a marriage that's void right from the beginning. But other than situations like that, by not signing the license in the proper way would not invalidate a marriage. MS. GRASSO: Now, what about the vows? Because nowadays you see people who sit down and write their own vows, and is there anything that has to be in the wedding ceremony to make it official -- MR. MCKEON: No. MS. GRASSO: -- do you have to say, "I now pronounce you," or -- MR. MCKEON: No, all you have to do is to say, "I want to marry this man," and, "I want to marry this woman," and there's nothing specific that needs to be said. It's really a personal thing on the part of the couple as to what they want to say to one another on that special day. MS. GRASSO: Have you heard any fabulous wedding vows? MR. MCKEON: I've heard some unusual things. I had one young lady who wanted to remember her late brother in the wedding vows, and I tried to discourage her from that, because a wedding is a happy occasion, but it was important to her to remember him at that time, and so it was her wedding and that's what we did. MS. GRASSO: Now, in the wedding -- and I go back to the movies, because I've seen more weddings in movies than anywhere else. There's always that scene where they say, "Does anyone have an objection, let him speak now or forever hold his peace," and in the movies, someone invariably will pop up and go, "I do! I do!" First of all, has that ever happened to you? MR. MCKEON: That's never happened, but today you have to be careful and say does him or her -- MS. GRASSO: Right. Okay. MR. MCKEON: No, it's never happened, and -- MS. GRASSO: And what if it does? So what if someone has an objection is always my question. So what? MR. MCKEON: Do you want to know something, you're absolutely right, June. Unless that person who's getting married is married to the individual who has the objection -- then that wedding is going to go ahead. MS. GRASSO: Welcome back to Legal Cafe. I'm June Grasso, and we're talking about marriage this morning and the steps you have to take to make it official, technically speaking. There are really only three basic steps for a valid marriage, and here's the law of the land. First, you need a license, and you can get one at your local courthouse or government building. Second, in some states, you can't get a license without first taking a blood test to screen for diseases. Third, you'll also pay a license fee, anywhere between 25 (dollars) and $100, depending on where you live. And don't forget that there are also license waiting periods in some states, which can vary from one to five days, so you may have to cool it for a little while before you actually go through with the ceremony. REQUIREMENTS FOR GETTING MARRIED IN LAS VEGAS On our phone right now is someone who has a lot of experience with getting married. It's not Elizabeth Taylor, it's Jim Hamilton, a minister from Las Vegas, the so-called wedding capital of America, and Jim has seen more than his share of marriages, including model Cindy Crawford, actor Richard Gere, and entertainer Nell Carter. Good morning, Jim. MR. HAMILTON: Good morning, June. MS. GRASSO: On the phone is Theresa from Tennessee. Good morning and welcome to Legal Cafe, Theresa. Q Good morning. How are you? MS. GRASSO: Hi. Okay. Are you planning to get married? Q Yes, I think my fiancé is going to surprise me with a wedding in Vegas, and I was wondering what the procedures are, since we're only going to be there a couple of days over the weekend, like Friday and Saturday, and I was wondering what the licensing procedure and all of that is. MS. GRASSO: All right. Well, let's go to the man who knows this. Jim, I mean, Vegas is the place to go and get it done fast, isn't it? MR. HAMILTON: Yeah, it is. Okay, first of all, there's no blood test and no waiting period, and all you need to do is fly into town and go to the Clark County courthouse, which is Third and Carson in Las Vegas, and apply for a marriage certificate, and if you want to, you can call one of the chapels. They'll provide a limo service for you. You can be at the chapel -- at the courthouse in an hour and be married within an hour and a half. MS. GRASSO: Sounds like you can get it done very fast, Theresa. Probably two days is too much time. You'll have time on your hands. MR. HAMILTON: You'll have plenty of time for the honeymoon. MS. GRASSO: Okay. All right. Thanks for calling, Theresa. PHOTOGRAPHERS RUINED WEDDING PHOTOS Our next caller is Kathie from Michigan. Good morning, Kathie. You're on Legal Cafe. Do you have a question? Q Yes, I just married a month ago, and we contracted a famous studio, a good studio, to do our pictures, and this is our third marriage, so we're older and we, you know, think we know what we're going to do. But the pictures were so important to us -- they didn't show up at our wedding. They were an hour and a half late. So they were so important, because we had five generations. His parents are well up into their 80s, my grandmother's in her 80s, and these were important pictures to us. Okay, they finally got there, the wedding went on, and then I went to pick out my pictures a couple weeks later. They ruined every single one of them. MS. GRASSO: Ruined -- how do you mean? You didn't like the way people looked in them? Q No, there's a blotch in every picture. Somebody's faded out. There's not one good photo. It was their equipment or something. MS. GRASSO: Oh. Q I wanted to know, because they were so important -- first of all, they ruined my wedding and made everybody wait an hour and a half in the summer, and then -- now I have nothing to show for it. Is there any recourse in small claims court for, like, punitive damages or anything like that? MS. GRASSO: Well, let's turn to the judge right now and -- MR. MCKEON: I'm sure there's a recourse, June, but nothing adequate enough to really make up for the kind of emotional loss that this lady -- MS. GRASSO: Well, that's -- you can't replace that. MR. MCKEON: Absolutely, and unfortunately, our laws don't have the kind of remedy that she would think is appropriate for the loss, really, of a special moment, and that's what we're speaking of. You can go in and get damages for their failure to show up, but certainly nothing that brings to light what you've lost by their negligence. MS. GRASSO: And, Kathy, did you pay them any money up front? Q Yeah, I paid them a hundred and 50 (dollars). We just had a small package, but it was important -- I mean, my grandmother -- it's probably the last time I'll ever get the old folks together, you know, for a picture like that -- And I -- they wanted to give me my money back, and I was just so upset -- I usually don't get upset about stuff like that I just had to leave. I couldn't even talk to them. MS. GRASSO: Yeah, it's really understandable. I'm so sorry that didn't go well, but we certainly hope that your married life goes well. Thanks so much for calling. Q Thank you. MS. GRASSO: Now, speaking of the young lady, the photographer, I think we have another answer for her, and that will be coming from Jackie Barnett, who is in our newsroom. Jackie is a frequent and always welcome guest on Legal Cafe and Court TV. She's a family attorney practicing in New York City, and family -- all kinds of family issues. Welcome, Jackie. MS. BARNETT: Good morning. MS. GRASSO: Jackie, you were listening in to our conversation with -- I believe it was Kathie from Michigan, and she had a problem with the photos that she had taken, and you had a suggestion. MS. BARNETT: Yes, because I really felt such sympathy for her, because whenever you hear fires, the one thing people grab are their photographs. I would contact the studio and ask them to do portraits of the entire five generations, as well as a separate portrait of her and her husband. I think that would be a very fair solution, because she would then at least have the five generations while they still are all alive in a professional setting, and that, I think, is a very fair exchange. MS. GRASSO: All right. I think it's a great idea, Jackie, because it's really the only -- you can't capture the moment, but it's the only way to get back at least the five generations together, so great idea. PRENUPTIAL AGREEMENTS Let's switch to another very popular prenuptial idea, and that is the prenuptial agreements and what they entail. Do you suggest a prenup for everyone getting married or just for people who have a lot of assets? MS. BARNETT: I think everyone should, because the point of a prenuptial agreement is setting out the terms of a contract of marriage, which is a lifelong contract which governs every aspect of your life -- your income, your assets, your liabilities -- so to me it seems that if you're going to spend time looking at photographer contracts and caterer contracts, the most important contract of all is the contract of marriage, and that should be the one that should be thought out very clearly, and a prenuptial allows you the opportunity to think about what it means. And as that couple had premarital counseling, in many ways the prenuptial is sort of a substitute for it, though I think premarital counseling is a wonderful, wonderful thing, but it allows people to say what they mean and mean what they say, and when you're faced with it in writing, you suddenly see it as much more concrete and real, and I think you're more likely to live up to your commitments if it's in writing. MR. MCKEON: Jackie, isn't there an emotional component to that, however, and by that I mean -- and Jackie's a wonderful lawyer in this particular field -- when you sit down with someone and say, you know, "I want a prenuptial agreement," there's a degree of hesitancy about that, and, quite frankly, there are many people who balk at the notion of signing a piece of paper before they go down the aisle, and I'm wondering, Jackie, what your thought is about that. MS. BARNETT: Well, Your Honor, I think that the most important thing is the that people do recognize that when they do get married, it really is a very strange menage a trois between a husband, a wife, and the state, that the two of them are not getting married alone, that they are signing a contract, and unless they sign their own contract, they're going to be governed by a state version, which may change over the years without calling them and telling them the changes. And I think that it is a romantic thing to say what it means to be married. If getting married means cutting someone off from all rights, I think you want to know that's the kind of marriage that the person has in mind for you, so I think it's romantic to know what reality is, not just moonlit promises. MR. MCKEON: You know, invariably, Jackie, when we do these weddings, every couple believes they're the one that's going to remain together for the rest of their lives, and this concept that they're not is a difficult one, I think, to focus on at a time when one is caught up in the excitement of getting married and this sort of thing. So, I mean, I think your advice is absolutely wonderful. The problem is implementing it with the emotional kind of situation that usually exists with a couple who's made the decision to get married. MS. BARNETT: And that's why you like to do it well in advance of the wedding. I don't suggest doing it on the month before the wedding. I think if people do it in a reasoned manner, I think it's very appropriate, and I don't think it's an accident when people say, "madly in love." (Laughter.) There's a madness involved in it, and I think that if you really think about it, all marriages do end. Either someone is carried out in a coffin, or someone walks out. So what a premarital agreement does is it recognizes that there are two paths in which a marriage can end, and it provides the road map for the departure. MS. GRASSO: Welcome back to Legal Cafe. I'm June Grasso. We're talking marriage this morning and everything you have to do to make it legal, and these days more and more people are planning for their future by signing prenuptial agreements, contracts that spell out everyone's legal rights should the marriage eventually go south. Here's the law of the land when drafting a prenup. First, both you and your soon-to-be spouse should use separate attorneys when drafting a prenuptial agreement to avoid any possible conflict of interest. You should also disclose all of your financial assets and liabilities before the contract is written. Finally, it's important for the prenuptial agreement's terms to be fair to both sides. Courts will invalidate agreements that are one-sided. DO I NEED TO SHOW DIVORCE DECREE TO APPLY FOR ANOTHER MARRIAGE LICENSE? Let's go back to the phones. Calvin from New York is on the line. Good morning, Calvin. Are you planning to get married? Q Yes. MS. GRASSO: Okay. What's your question? Q My question is I'm planning on getting married in -- I'm getting married in -- I'm getting, you know, married in 1999 in Virginia -- and I'm wondering, do I need to bring my divorce decree in order to apply for another marriage license? MS. GRASSO: Good question. Judge? MR. MCKEON: Yes, I would -- I would definitely bring that. That's something that's usually asked for, and, of course, it establishes that Calvin is, indeed, free to marry again, so don't forget that. Q Okay. MS. GRASSO: Let me ask you this question, because a lot of the things you fill out on the certificate, they're going to check your license or, you know, a particular passport or something like that, birth certificate, but the question of whether you've been divorced before, you could actually -- if they asked you that, you could just say no and you wouldn't have to provide that. Do they check to make sure? Do they do any kind of check to see if you're still married? Because you do hear of cases every once in a while where someone doesn't realize that their divorce wasn't final, and they go ahead and get married and then all kinds of complications ensue. MR. MCKEON: No, they don't check, but the fact is that if you are still married when you seek to marry someone else, that particular ceremony and that marriage is void as a matter of law. It's interesting about going to another state to get married and what you need. I had a rather interesting circumstance involving my former secretary, who was supposed to get married out in New Jersey before a rabbi on a Sunday, and the poor guy didn't realize that he needed a Jersey license, and so when he went out to finalize the ceremony, the rabbi, much to his dismay, said, "I can't marry you," and it wound up that I had to do a ceremony the night before in New York with a New York license and that was a ceremony that actually didn't marry them, but was for the people sitting there watching. MS. GRASSO: Which really got the nerves over with the night before, then. MR. MCKEON: Well, they were still nervous, believe it or not, June. HOW DOES MARRIAGE AFFECT ASSETS? MS. GRASSO: Let's go back to the phones. Our next caller is Denise from Texas. Good morning, Denise. Do you have a question? Are you planning to get married? Q Yes, I was concerned about my cap (ph) plan money that I've invested from the company, and I just wanted to make sure that , you know, if anything was to happen along the years that I wouldn't have to share that money. I mean, I wouldn't have to -- it becomes a part of divorce, that, you know, for so many years you have to split, you know, what's in your account plan, and I don't feel that I should have to do that, because I worked for that money and I earned it and I don't want to have to share any of it. MS. GRASSO: All right. Well, let's go to Jackie Barnett. Jackie? MS. BARNETT: Well, depending upon which state you're in, you have to find out what your state laws are concerning how property is shared, but generally that property which is owned before a marriage is considered separate, but the best way to deal with it is to have a premarital agreement which specifically addresses the asset that you're talking about. Any assets concerning retirement accounts, there's special protection for the spouse, so that there have to be very specific forms signed and waivers done for someone to relinquish their interest in that property. If he was to outlive you, though, and to be your widower, would you feel the same way about that property? Q Well, I have a child from an unwed marriage, and I'd rather everything go to my daughter, because I feel she's special, because when I get married, if I have any other children, those kids are going to be taken for. I kind of feel that this particular child is going to be left out, and I prefer everything that I've earned and my house that I've recently bought and paid for should go to her, because she's special to me, because, you know, if I die, her father has another -- already has another set of family, so I feel like she's left out. MS. BARNETT: You both are the absolute key people that should have some sort of contract setting out your rights and responsibilities, because he may feel differently if he's going to be maintaining and living in a house, that if something were to happen to you, that the title should be in your daughter's name, so I really think it's important, imperative, that you consult with lawyers and do a proper premarital agreement and also some estate planning. Q Well, let me ask you this. As for my house, I really don't want to live in my house, and he thinks that -- frankly, because I feel like this. I bought this house, and I don't want to have to -- I think it's petty to argue over something. I think we should pay rent, because we wouldn't have to pay rent here. I think we should pay rent somewhere else. If anything happens, then, you know, we can fight it out then. I really don't want my house to be involved at all in the marriage, period. I don't even want to live in my home. I'd rather rent it out and keep my property totally separate from this marriage. MS. BARNETT: Well, it sounds to me that the two of you have very significant issues. Do you have a wedding date set? Q No, that's one of the things, because it's like as though he thinks I'm kind of selfish, I don't want to share. It's not that I'm selfish and I don't want to share, I'm more mainly concerned about my daughter, you know? I don't want her to have to, if we live in a home, you know, in states like this, you know, the roomer can still live in this house, and, you know, afterward it will be my daughter's property, you know? My main concern, you know, is taking, you know, making the marriage work, but also making sure that my daughter doesn't have to have legal battles -- MS. GRASSO: Brenda, I'm sorry. We're going to have to cut you off because we have to take a break, but your -- it sounds like a classic case where you -- a prenuptial agreement is a really good idea. You have a lot of issues you have to settle with the person you intend to get married, so that's a perfect thing for what we're talking about, which is drawing up a prenuptial agreement. Thanks so much for calling. TIPS FOR HAVING A SMOOTH WEDDING I want to go to Jim Hamilton for a moment now, our minister from Las Vegas. Jim, do you have any final tips for people who are coming out to Las Vegas to get married? Best top tip. MR. HAMILTON: Well, it's quick and it's easy. We do real nice services for people, contrary to what a lot of people think, you know, just quickie weddings, but we do 15- to 20-minute services and we make it real nice. You can have everything, it's real easy. You can have a lot of fun, lose a lot of money -- (laughter) -- or make a lot of money, and it's a great vacation spot and you can get married and have all this fun all at the same time. MS. GRASSO: All right. Well, Jim, you've been a lot of fun. Thanks so much for telling us all those stories and giving us your advice. We appreciate it. MR. HAMILTON: You're welcome. Nice to be on your TV show. MS. GRASSO: Thank you. You know, Judge, give us some final thoughts, perhaps, on what you think the most important thing someone should think about when you're facing a wedding ceremony. MR. MCKEON: Do they want to get married? Very much, very often, people get caught up with the notion of getting married for the sake of getting married, and they don't think through, as Jackie pointed out so very well a few moments ago, what you're entering into, what it means, what your responsibilities are, and what does happen if it doesn't work out. So I think rather than planning a wedding, really spend that little time within yourself and say, "Is this for me?" MS. GRASSO: Do you think -- just briefly, do you think premarital counseling is a good idea for most couples? MR. MCKEON: Well, I think anything that makes the couple think about what they're entering into and what it means is a healthy thing, especially in these times where we see so many divorces. MS. GRASSO: Honorable Douglas McKeon, it's been a pleasure having you here. MR. MCKEON: Oh, it's been my pleasure. MS. GRASSO: Thanks so much. MR. MCKEON: Thanks for having me here. MS. GRASSO: That does it for our first hour of Legal Cafe, but there's plenty ahead in hour two.