Hiring a Private Investigator Transcripts August 25, 1997 9 a.m. - 10 a.m. GUESTS: MICHAEL CHERKASKY, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR DIANE COWAN, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR The following are excerpts from the viewer call-in portion of the program. Can an Investigator Locate Info Such as Brokerage and Ira Accounts? Wiretapping and "Willful Interception" Are Investigators Subject to Stalking Laws? Being Tailed by an Investigator Surveillance vs. Stalking Finding Someone without Hiring an Investigator How Dangerous is PI Work? Tips for Finding the Right Investigator JUNE GRASSO: Good morning. I'm June Grasso, and welcome to Legal Cafe, Court TV's daily wakeup call to the law in your life. On Mondays, we look at the family, obviously one of the most important parts of our lives, and this morning we'll focus on something a little different -- private investigators. How can they help you and your family, from locating a runaway child to a wayward spouse? And what's the best way to go about hiring one? MS. GRASSO: My first guest for this hour. Michael Cherkasky is the COO of Kroll Associates, a monitoring service company in New York. He's also the former chief of investigations for the New York district attorney's office, where he headed the rackets bureau, so Michael has experience on many sides of the issue. Good morning, Michael. CAN AN INVESTIGATOR LOCATE INFO SUCH AS BROKERAGE AND IRA ACCOUNTS? MS. GRASSO: Okay. Well, let's take an e-mail question from the Legal Cafe website, which is a great place to download information and ask questions about the topics we discuss on the show. Our question this morning is from Mary, and she asks, "Can a private investigator locate brokerage and IRA accounts," and what's the answer to that? "Where does the authority to do that come from?" MR. CHERKASKY: Well, there are all kinds of legal restrictions, privacy rights, that people have, which, in fact, prevent private investigators from legally accessing those kinds of account information. There are fair credit reporting acts. Private investigators are not legally allowed, without your permission, to be able to go into all the kind of brokerage accounts, bank accounts, credit reporting information that you have. Now, there are enormous amounts of information on the World Wide Web which, in fact, can be accessed so that legitimate private investigators can get enormous amounts of information without breaking those laws, but technically brokerage accounts are not subject to being looked at. MS. GRASSO: Now, what about -- I read that some people suggest, well, you know, you don't need a private investigator in today's day and age if you want the kind of information you can get from public records, because look at the Web. You can get so much information from the Web. Do you think the Web can take the place of hiring a private investigator? MR. CHERKASKY: For certain things. If you want to go look up someone's phone number or find an address or locate certain people who are living in a place and have a phone number and a regular job, you can use the Web for those sources. But we have people who've done this for years and years and years at Kroll who, in fact, are very skilled. There are a thousand different data bases we access every day -- obviously, the World Wide Web. The skill to be able to use and access information that's quote-unquote "publicly available" is a real skill set, so people -- not all people are going to be able to understand what can be found. MS. GRASSO: Well, I know I -- I don't put myself even in the situation of even trying that, but let's talk a little more about that later, and also about the tools of the trade. WIRETAPPING AND "WILLFUL INTERCEPTION" MS. GRASSO: Welcome back to Legal Cafe. I'm June Grasso. We're talking about private investigators this morning -- real life Sam Spades and Magnum, P.I.s. The main role of a private investigator is spying -- digging up dirt on the unfaithful spouse or runaway relative or even a business enemy. There are limits to what a private investigator can do in the search for information, especially when it comes to wiretapping. Here's the law of the land. Under the federal Wiretap Act of 1968, it's illegal to wilfully intercept telephone communications. The key word here is "wilfully." There are two major exceptions under the law. A wiretap is legal if the person consents to it or if the wiretap is on a business telephone at the office. Joining me now from the TV -- Court TV newsroom is Diane Cowan, a vice president and co-owner of a private investigator firm Philadelphia. Diane has been in the business for 11 years. Thanks for joining us, Diane. MS. COWAN: Good morning, June. MS. GRASSO: Good morning. Let's talk about the term "willful interception." Do private investigators really follow the law in this area? MS. COWAN: I think so, yes. Again, as Mike was talking earlier, we have so many laws that prevent us from committing crimes to obtain information. A good private eye is not going to do that. They're not going to risk their license, risk future business just to obtain information for a client, no matter how important that client is. MS. GRASSO: Diane, suppose you have a child in your home that you're worried about. You're worried that the child, for example, is buying drugs or involved in drugs somehow -- it's your daughter -- or your son, and you want a private investigator to put a wiretap on your own home phone so you can tell -- and stop your child not because you're going to turn your child in, but you want to stop her or him from doing anything wrong. Is that allowed? MS. COWAN: As far as I know, yes, it is. I don't know of a law that would prevent that kind of a tap on my own phone, but I think there's other avenues to obtain the information you want. For example, conducting background investigations on the friends and the family which your child is active with. I think that's the better route, rather than tapping your own phone. MS. GRASSO: Okay. Let me go to Michael, because he was shaking his head as we said "tapping your own phone." Your own phone you can't tap? MR. CHERKASKY: You can't tap your own phone. The difficulty is the law -- it's Title III of the federal Omnibus Crime Act -- says that there needs to be one party consent. Unless there's one party, even if this is your own phone, if you own the phone, you own the office, you can't tap that phone. You have to have one of the two parties in that conversation who's participating has to consent to the wiretap. Otherwise it is an illegal wiretap, so that you can't tap your son's conversations, even if you own the phone. Ownership is not the issue. It's the privacy laws -- privacy of individuals that the Congress was intending to protect. MS. GRASSO: So even an office phone, in your own office -- you own the office, you own all the equipment -- and you have employees working there, you can't tap that phone, either? MR. CHERKASKY: You can't tap a phone with the exception that when there's no expectation of privacy, that's a technical, legal terms, then, in fact, you're allowed -- in the securities industry, they tell you, the securities firm, "We're going to record all the transactions for the protection of the customers." Then the employee doesn't have an expectation that there's going to be a private conversation. MS. GRASSO: Okay. MR. CHERKASKY: So when there's not an expectation of privacy, you can tap, but it's very restrictive. MS. GRASSO: So if, as you hire people in your firm, you say, "I'm going to be tapping phones, and so you be aware that" -- is that all right? MR. CHERKASKY: That's not all right unless it's, in fact, phone conversations with the outside public, where there's -- where there's a reason -- business rationale and that there is, in fact, no expectation. But an employee who picks up the phone and calls their mother, that is, in fact, a protected conversation, and even if the company says, "We own these phones and we're going to tap it," it's not legal, and there are very, very substantial penalties. MS. GRASSO: I'm glad you said that, because some of the conversations I've had with my mother at the office I don't even want to discuss. MR. CHERKASKY: And we don't want to hear. MS. GRASSO: Yes, you do. You're going to ask me in the break about them, and I'm not going to tell you now. ARE INVESTIGATORS SUBJECT TO STALKING LAWS? Let's go to our own phones, where Ken from Massachusetts is on the line. Good morning, Ken. Q Hi. How are you doing? MS. GRASSO: Okay. How are you? Q Okay. My question is if a P.I. surveills a subject and that subject is aware that he or she is being pursued by the P.I., can that P.I. be subject to stalking violation charges if he's in a state that has such a law? MS. GRASSO: Aha! That's an interesting question. Michael, what do you think? MR. CHERKASKY: It's very fact specific, it's very statutorily specific. There is no legal right not to have someone follow you. There's a legal right not have your life interrupted and there are certain levels of knowing abuse of the individual, but it's very fact specific and statutorily specific. But you can surveill. Surveillance is a time-tested technique that, as long as it doesn't get too aggressive and too intrusive -- and generally the key is intrusion -- it's okay. MS. GRASSO: Diane, tell me, when you're trailing someone -- or let's take it from the other point of view. What would you do if you knew that you were being trailed to get a person off your tail? MS. COWAN: Oh, I would drive right into the nearest police department, that's what I would do. That's the way to end the surveillance. But most real good private investigators do contact the local authorities to let them know they're in the area, what they're doing. They may not say, "I am surveilling Mr. X, who lives at this -- 1 Elm Street," but they do let them know that they are conducting surveillance in the area so that they don't have police on their tail while they're in the area conducting surveillance. But that is the way to avoid being pursued. MS. GRASSO: Diane, who's the most difficult person to tail? MS. COWAN: Oh, me. (Laughter.) MS. GRASSO: Besides you. I mean, is it a kid who kind of goes in and out of school in different directions or a spouse who suspects that his or her -- a spouse who suspects that his spouse suspects him -- that was too complicated. MS. COWAN: It is the paranoid person. It really is. If the person is -- feels they're doing something wrong, sure, they're going to be looking over their shoulder. Anyone who's been in this line of work or law enforcement is always a little paranoid, so I think it's the person who's doing something wrong. They're the real difficult persons to follow. MS. GRASSO: All right. We'll take more of your calls in just a little while, so if you have a mystery that needs solving or a person who needs to be watched, give us a call. BEING TAILED BY AN INVESTIGATOR Our next caller is Ron from Minnesota. You're on Legal Cafe, Ron. Q Hi there. The question I have for the investigator -- I was being tailed by an investigator. I took his plate number down to find out what his name was, and I'm not able to do so. How do I do a background check on this fellow -- to, like, get dirt on him? And I want to know how do I find out where he works and to find out why he was tailing me? MS. GRASSO: Now, it's interesting you brought this up, Ron, because in the break, Michael and I were talking, and you said that you do a lot of countersurveillance for movie stars. MR. CHERKASKY: Right. We have a lot of celebrities who want to know if someone's stalking them or following them, so we do a lot of countersurveillance. We're looking for someone who, in fact, is following, surveilling, looking at the celebrity, so we do a lot of that to protect celebrities. MS. GRASSO: Now, the average person -- like, I assume, Ron, wants to know -- someone's following him, and you want to know how to get the goods on this person or at least find out who they're working for. MR. CHERKASKY: Well, the first suggestion is that he hire a private detective. (Laughter.) Obviously, he can do certain self-help things. It's not hard to access the Department of Motor Vehicle records. You get a license plate number, you can access the Department of Motor Vehicle and you can run the plate. You can purchase that through the computers, through on-line services normally -- not in all states; and I don't know about Minnesota -- and find out who was registered to that car. Frequently, good private detectives have a company or a rental so, in fact, they can't be run. It's not going to come back to them personally. That would be breaking the rules of being a private eye to have your own personal plates on. MS. GRASSO: Right. Ron, let me ask you, do you have any suspicions as to why you're being followed? Q Well, I got hurt with my insurance from the car insurance, and I think they're following me, and I've asked their attorney and he doesn't recollect the name -- recollect the name that I gave him. I don't think he's coming clean, but how do I -- that's exactly right. If I do run a check on him with the Department of Motor Vehicles, it won't come back to where he works. Again, how do I find out where he works and, say, get some dirt on him. MS. GRASSO: What Michael's saying is -- and, by the way, if you're involved in an insurance claim, often the other side will do videotapes and investigations to see whether the injuries that you claim, you really have, so, I mean, that's not an unusual thing for the other side, for the insurance company or defendant in a lawsuit to do. I know oftentimes they'll even bring that evidence to court when a plaintiff is testifying to show that the injuries are not as severe as the plaintiff says. For example, if you say, "Oh, I can't move my leg," and then they have a videotape of you crossing the street and walking normally -- but let me ask Diane. Diane, do you have any other suggestions besides -- the suggestion was why don't you go hire a private investigator to find out? MS. COWAN: Well, to be frank, I think he's wasting his time, because a good P.I. does cover their tracks, and we are not easily locatable. MS. GRASSO: Okay. Thanks so much for calling, Ron. SURVEILLANCE VS. STALKING We're taking your calls on the subject, and I have Jessica from Ohio on the phone. Good morning, Jessica. Are you thinking of hiring a private investigator? Q Not really, no. MS. GRASSO: Okay. What's your question? Q What is the legal definition of stalking, and how is it different from the surveillance that you were talking about on your program? MS. GRASSO: Okay. Michael, "stalking" is a term -- kind of -- it's almost a term in the last several years; I don't think we've heard it before -- where you're worried about somebody else staking you. How is that different from a private investigator following you around for business reasons to find out information on you? MR. CHERKASKY: One of the difficulties is we have 50 states and it's 50 different laws. Some states in recent times have put in anti-stalking statutes, and the stalking statutes always -- almost always focus on the intent: why are you following that person? And, in fact, also it's the intrusion in that person. If, in fact, you're following -- if it's a ex-spouse who is following with the intent to be shown to do harm, then, in fact, it's a very serious anticipatory crime, like an attempt. It's before the actual crime of violence occurs, and therefore the law is trying to take early action. Normally with the surveillance, these are not criminal intent. There is, in fact, someone who is not so intrusive, and the repercussions at the end of it are not going to be so serious, they're not going to be violent, so that you're not going to have criminal activity. The problem that your viewers should understand is it's fact specific, and it's specific to the statute in their state. It's hard to generalize. MS. GRASSO: Okay. All right. Thanks so much for calling, Jessica. FINDING SOMEONE WITHOUT HIRING AN INVESTIGATOR Our next caller is Herb from New York. Good morning, Herb. Q Good morning. MS. GRASSO: You're on Legal Cafe. What's your question? Q Yeah. If someone skips out from a residence, involved in a legal case, how -- what methods can be used to trace him down? I was able to access his bankruptcy records in the federal government -- I think it cost me 45 bucks -- only because I knew he had filed a bankruptcy. I knew he was arrested in a certain county. I was able to access his court records for that county, but I don't know how to access stuff I don't know about, because, you know, I'm bound by the legalities of it. How can I trace somebody to their new residence? MS. GRASSO: In other words, he's a defendant? You're suing someone -- Q Right. He's one of the defendants in the case. MS. GRASSO: Okay. All right. Well, I see Michael shaking his head, so I know he knows the answer. MR. CHERKASKY: Well, there's an enormous amount of standard operating procedure that we will go through, that Kroll and Kroll will go through to locate somebody. It is accessing driving records, it is accessing all kinds of property records, it's access any kind of legal suits. It also is the kind of Sam Spade. It's pounding the pavements. It's not all electronic. It is, in fact, going out, asking questions. It's making sure you understand where the forwarding information is. There is enormous amounts of information, because banks care and credit agencies care about where someone's moving. You've got to make sure that you do it legally, but there -- again, there's a thousand data bases which will, in fact, help track and get information about people. MS. GRASSO: Now, you can do it. You know where to go. If Herb wants to do it -- Herb, do I understand that you don't want to hire, you don't have the funding to hire a private investigator? Q I can't afford it, but I've been able to get a lot of information. One of the parties in here has fake licenses on their walls. I accepted nothing for granted. I checked every license and found out none of them were for real, so -- but if you don't have something to grab onto -- I can't access his credit records. I don't have a legal right to. The bank won't give me the information. MS. GRASSO: Right. Is there any way an average person can do what a P.I. can do in this instance? MR. CHERKASKY: It's hard. It's hard. I mean, certainly there are -- you can take it up to a certain level, and, in fact, if you want to get more and more involved, you can learn. People can learn this stuff. It's not rocket science, but it is -- the reason people pay from 50 (dollars) to $250 is because there's some real skill and science and art involved in taking information and finding out more information. So it's hard to do. Again, there are -- on your different data bases in your home that you -- if you can access this Internet, you can get a lot of information, and there's forwarding information that you can try to follow, and if it's not there -- listen, if it's a fraudster, fraudsters cover their tracks, and that's why you have to have professionals. MS. GRASSO: And, Herb, we'll have some numbers up for you later on in the show to try to help you, some websites and some telephone numbers. Thanks so much. HOW DANGEROUS IS PI WORK? Jerome from Washington. Welcome to Legal Cafe, Jerome. What's your question? Q All right. I'm trying to be a private investigator, and I want to know how dangerous -- what type of dangers do I have to look for and how much of the law do I actually have to know? MS. GRASSO: Okay. Diane Cowan, let's go to you for this one. How dangerous is it to be actually out there pounding the pavements? MS. COWAN: Well, it is dangerous. Let's face it, I don't know who's behind the door I'm knocking on, but neither does a salesperson who goes out into a neighborhood to sell their product. It is a dangerous field in that regard. However, most of our work is conducted from the office unless we're meeting with a witness, for example, to an accident, that kind of thing, but usually those are pre-arranged interviews. I don't carry a gun. I don't feel I need to carry a gun, and I have had very little problems, perhaps because I'm a woman in the neighborhoods, but the bottom line is you have to, you know, use common sense when you're out anywhere today, but it is not that dangerous. MS. GRASSO: All right. And may I ask you, Jerome, why you want to become a private investigator? Q Well, basically, most of my experience has been a bodyguard and security and stuff like that, and I'm trying to start my own business, and of course private investigating is something that, you know, I was looking to get into, so I've been doing a lot of research and, you know, a lot of things like that, and so far, I've been on the right track. I've met up with a private investigator who put me on the right track in Washington, DC. MS. GRASSO: Oh, and we said before that's a great way to go, is to work with another private investigator and to learn the ropes that way. It's often the way to get your foot in the door in many of these industries. Good luck to you, Jerome. TIPS FOR FINDING THE RIGHT INVESTIGATOR MS. GRASSO: Our time this hour is almost up, so let's summarize some of the key legal points for finding a private investigator. We'll call this Diane Cowan's House Blend for Finding the Perfect P.I. First, check with the Better Business Bureau or your local bar association. Attorneys are a great place to start, because they often work closely with P.I.s. You can also check with a state licensing authority to make sure your private investigator has proper credentials, and it never hurts to get references. A great source is the National Association of Legal Investigators. Diane, when you meet with a private investigator, should you like that person or don't you have to really get along with them -- like a doctor-patient relationship? MS. COWAN: Oh, absolutely not. However, you should feel comfortable, just like you would with your doctor. You really should feel comfortable. MS. GRASSO: Okay and so -- so once you find someone, do you think you should shop around, see a couple of private investigators? MS. COWAN: I think so. However, lawyers are really good references. They usually know the P.I.s. They know who's dependable, who's reliable, and who gets results, so if you have an attorney friend or relative, give them a call. They should be able to refer you. MS. GRASSO: All right. Michael, what I want to talk about briefly is the amounts of information that are out there about you that you might not be aware of that people can access. MR. CHERKASKY: Well, that's the other side of the information network. It's great that we have access to information, but one of the problems is when you go into a drugstore and you charge different items, all those items that you charge, that information that you're buying a muscle relaxant or aspirin or a different kind of product goes into a data base somewhere. Now, that information -- Congress is dealing with those kind of privacy issues. Do we want people to know what we buy at the supermarket or what we buy at different stores or how we charge gas or the fact that we're going through a toll and where we're going. We're going over a toll through an EZ pass type of technique. The ability to track people and to track what they're doing in their everyday lives is so -- in this electronic age is so dominant that people have a lot of concerns about access to that information. MS. GRASSO: It becomes scary in a sense. Let's go to the other end of it, Diane, from the computer age to the time-honored tools of the trade. Do you use disguises a lot in your trade? MS. COWAN: We do and we don't. You know, I wasn't a blonde last week -- I'm only kidding. We do occasionally. Sometimes we need to change our names to fit a certain scenario. We cannot misrepresent ourselves as a law enforcement official or as someone who exists, but occasionally we do use disguises. I'll wear my hair up, I might wear it down, I might wear glasses -- it depends -- if I don't want the person to recognize me from the prior day. MS. GRASSO: All right. Diane Cowan, thanks so much for being here without a disguise on. We appreciate it. And, Michael Cherkasky, it's been a pleasure to have you here. We hope you'll come back soon to Legal Cafe.