Sexual Harassment Transcripts July 31, 1997 9 a.m. - 10 a.m. GUEST: BEVERLY WILLIAMS, LABOR AND EMPLOYMENT ATTORNEY The following are excerpts from the viewer call-in portion of the program. Different Forms of Sexual Harassment Being Accused of Sexual Harassment Reverse Sexual Harassment Filing a Complaint with EEOC Tips on Fighting Sexual Harassment JUNE GRASSO: Good morning. I'm June Grasso, and welcome to our Thursday morning Legal Cafe, Court TV's daily wakeup call to the law in your life. On Thursdays, we focus on the work place, and today we'll start off with a most controversial subject, sexual harassment. What is it, and what are your rights as either the accuser or the accused? MS. GRASSO: I'm joined by Beverly Williams. Beverly is a labor and employment attorney. She's admitted to practice in both New York and Washington, DC, and she conducts labor negotiations on behalf of employers. Welcome to Legal Cafe, Beverly. MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you, June. DIFFERENT FORMS OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT MS. GRASSO: Our topic this morning is sexual harassment, and believe it or not, before the 1980s, there really weren't any federal or state laws on the matter, but that's all changed now, and the law of the land is Title VII of the federal Civil rights act. The first form of sexual harassment is called quid pro quo -- this for that. It's when a supervisor offers a job, promotion, or a raise in exchange for sexual favors. The second form of harassment is a hostile work environment. That's when a co-worker engaged in unwelcome sexual behavior, such as lewd jokes or innuendoes. Finally, Title VII protects both men and women, as well, as same-sex harassment. Before we take your calls on this subject, I want to ask my guest Beverly Williams, Beverly, why'd it take so long to get federal laws on the books on this topic? MS. WILLIAMS: I really can't say. My best guess would be that this was not considered a problem -- sex discrimination, race discrimination are types of invidious behavior that people can rally around. Sexual harassment is almost nebulous to some people. I remember talking to a friend, and he said, "But you meet your -- I met my wife in the work place." BEING ACCUSED OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT MS. GRASSO: Let's go to your phone calls right now. Eric from Virginia is on the line. Welcome to Legal Cafe, Eric. Q Hi, June. I have a problem at work, too. I was charged a few weeks ago with sexual harassment from a co-worker that I do not get along with. They have changed it to plain, simple harassment now because of the comments that she has made, but the thing is, the law is fine if you really basically do harass somebody sexually or regular, but being that the law is so vague on this situation, people abuse the law by getting even with bosses or co-workers, and what it doesn't realize is that it can ruin people's lives. MS. GRASSO: So, I mean, this is a problem, Eric, I think, with a lot of laws -- a law that's good on its face can be abused by people. Now, so you deny that there was any sexual harassment, I take it? Q No. It's just that I do not like this woman because she does not do her job and she's knows it. We've stopped talking. We used to be friends. We stopped talking about three years ago, and she has taken a few incidents and has turned them that they were directed towards her, such as we punched in at the time clock one time and she said that I pushed her, that I deliberately did this to her. The other thing was that a co-worker and I, we get along very well, and we talk kind of rough, and I used the female word for dog with this co-worker at the time, being that it was the way we talked, and she said that I directed it towards her. Well, they're doing this investigation now. Of course, I've been out of work without pay for two weeks, and there is a good chance that I'm going to lose my job because of this charge of something I really haven't done. MS. GRASSO: All right. Well, your question raises a couple of interesting issues, Eric. The first, Beverly, is the ability of people -- that anyone can take any good rule, good law, and, by making false charges, make it a bad rule or a bad law, as far as the person who was accused. MS. WILLIAMS: That's correct. MS. GRASSO: And there's no way to get around that, is there? MS. WILLIAMS: No, there isn't any way to get around it. Unfortunately, everyone's motives are not pure. Discrimination laws were placed on the books to eradicate invidious discrimination, such as sexual harassment. I think it's outrageous when people purposely -- and I think there's a distinction there -- intentionally use these laws as a sword against people that they don't like, that they want to get even with. That's not the purpose. There's a difference between that person and the person who really believes that this is probably sexual harassment, and doesn't quite know. MS. GRASSO: Let's talk about that, because that's the other issue. If you're talking with guys on the job, and he says that they use rough language -- let's say that includes sexual language, from what he says, and you're among consenting adults who both use that language -- let's say there's a couple of them -- but there's a woman in the area or a man who objects to that, is that a hostile work environment? MS. WILLIAMS: If it becomes pervasive. If the occurrences are severe enough, the language is severe enough. If -- and, more importantly, if the male or female who objects didn't object before but participated in the language. It may still mean that the conduct could give rise to sexual harassment if the individual says, "I don't want to do this any more. This is now offensive to me. It's unwelcome. Please stop." MS. GRASSO: Well, later on, we're going to give some of Beverly's tips on what to do and what not to do in the work place to make sure this doesn't happen to you even in what you may think is an innocent or acceptable situation. Thanks so much for calling, Eric. REVERSE SEXUAL HARASSMENT Our next caller is Bob from New York. Good morning, Bob, you're on Legal Cafe. Hi, Bob. Q Hello? MS. GRASSO: Hi, you're on Legal Cafe. Q Hi. How are you? MS. GRASSO: Okay. How are you? Q I was on advice, I have been -- accused my former employer of sexual harassment, and being a male and she being a female, it's referred to as reverse discrimination or harassment, and I think harassment is harassment, reversed or otherwise, and what I'm finding throughout this litigation is that -- is the opinion of the lawyers, the defendant's lawyers, trying to claim, like, how could a woman possibly be an aggressor, you know? She had the power, the position. She was over a large budget. I had not -- I put up with it for a year. It's not like it was a one incident type of thing. It was a quid pro quo, back and forth kind of thing for a year -- without my trying to make waves or cause confrontation type things, and it just led to ultimately my record being -- whenever I would be good to her, trying to please her in all kinds of ways, my work was fine. Whenever I tried to protest what she was wanting and doing, I was constantly being -- my record being impugned -- MS. GRASSO: Bob, you had to quit? Did you decide to quit? Q No, they fired me one week after I finally, after a year, went to her boss, who was the vice president, to complain about it, and within one week after that, over the phone, her boss told me I no longer have a job there. MS. GRASSO: And you -- did you file charges with the EEOC? How did you handle it? Q Well, I got a -- consulted with an attorney, and he said that what we'd do is just file a claim with the EEOC, which we did, and then we asked for relief, a dismissal -- a right to sue -- and then we went and filed the suit. And now their defense is that I was the aggressor, because I'm a male -- there's that, you know, stereotypical use now -- of them using the stereotype card, so to speak, and I'm wondering on your advice, what is public opinion or how do you counteract when someone says, "Of course, she is the woman. She had to have been aggressed on," because I'm a male, yet I was her subordinate and she signed my time sheet and she threatened me with all of that kind of power. MS. GRASSO: Well, you know, according to the law, it doesn't matter if it's a female being the aggressor or a male being the aggressor, and the question is whether society or, in this case, the jurors who are going to be on your jury, are going to look at it differently because you're a man. They really shouldn't, and I think we're coming around more to the idea, I think we're being more accepting of males also being subjects of sexual harassment. MS. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. Title VII does not protect one gender, males over females, females over males. Each -- both males and females are equal under Title VII, especially for purposes of discrimination. It's invidious. It's unacceptable in any form against anyone. MS. GRASSO: And, Beverly, don't you think -- I mean, it has to -- years probably have to go by before it becomes more commonplace. You have to have things -- for example, there was this movie with Michael Douglas and Demi Moore -- Disclosure, I think, the Michael Crichton book. Those kind of things, so that people see it and realize that it's there and accept it. I mean, this, he may have a difficult time in court, but the next person will have an easier time until we get to the point where we accept the idea that it can go both ways. MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I think as more and more women assume more powerful positions in the work place -- it makes sense. It just makes common sense that women will be able or be in a position to sexually harass men. I mean, men need their jobs as much as women. MS. GRASSO: All right. Well, good luck to you, though, Bob. Thanks so much, and you're absolutely right about your position in this as far as a man can also be the subject of sexual harassment. FILING A COMPLAINT WITH EEOC MS. GRASSO: Our next caller is H.D. from Tennessee. Good morning, H.D. Q Good morning. How are you? MS. GRASSO: Fine, how are you? Have you had a problem on the job with sexual harassment? Q Yes, ma'am, I'm a 45-year-old male that worked in an office environment from 1986 to 1996. I have a problem with females talking trash about my sex life and my wife and things that went on and walking by and getting pinched on the rear end and Friday was casual day, you could wear blue jeans and shirt and taking her hands and rubbing it down my chest and going, "Oh, baby," and all this kind of stuff. MS. GRASSO: Really? Q Yes. MS. GRASSO: And how long did that go on? Q For about two years of the 10 years I was there. They were friends of mine, and it got worse and worse and worse, so I talked to my wife about it, and I approached management three times and told them the situation. They assured me it'd be taken care of. It never stopped. It got worse and worse and they got more details of my personal life, my wife or whatever. MS. GRASSO: H.D., may I ask you a question just for a moment? Did this go on, you know, with the other male workers there and did the male workers do the same thing with the female workers? Was it a very, you know, close kind of -- Q No, ma'am, this was a -- MS. GRASSO: -- touchy-feely environment? Q It was a small office of about 15 people, all women and about three men, and -- MS. GRASSO: And you were the only one who was kind of -- Q Yes, ma'am, I was the only one. And I approached management one more time. I went in there I asked them, I said, "This is the last time I'm asking. What are you going to do about the situation?" They looked at me and said their hands were tied. Well, I got up and I walked out and never went back. So I called the EEOC. They told me my complaint wasn't worth it. I called a couple of attorneys, and being as I wasn't working, I didn't have the money to put up front. They wouldn't take it. I called a couple of pro bonos, and they kind of shrugged their shoulders at me and wasn't interested. My question is how long after I left this job do I have to bring legal action now that I have the recourse to do so. MS. GRASSO: Okay. Beverly, first of all -- let me ask you one more question, H.D.. When you went to the EEOC, was it on the phone that you did it or you actually went in and filed papers and things? Q I called them on the phone first, just to say -- you know, I never done it before. I didn't know how it worked. MS. GRASSO: Beverly, does that necessarily mean, a phone call, that they wouldn't take the case? MS. WILLIAMS: No, it doesn't, and, in fact, you have a right to file a complaint. You have the right to file a charge of discrimination, and the EEOC, if it investigates the charge, may then determine whether or not there's cause to believe that there is some discrimination going on, but they will take your complaint if you go down to their office and file a complaint. MS. GRASSO: Now, what about the statute of limitations. MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Depending on the jurisdiction, if there's also a state agency, a state referral agency, you have 300 days to file -- after the conduct, the last instance of conduct, to file the charge. There may be a state action that you may also bring. There are many -- many states have separate statutes prohibiting discrimination, so you might want to look into that, also. MS. GRASSO: H.D., how long ago did you leave your job? Q February of '96. MS. GRASSO: February of '96, that's -- MS. WILLIAMS: You may be out of time. MS. GRASSO: So that means if he hasn't filed within the 300 days, he can't even pursue -- can he pursue state charges, still, possibly? MS. WILLIAMS: He may be able to pursue state charges. You would want to look into that. I would still go to the EEOC and explore the possibility. You don't know that there may be something that told the statute of limitations, some occurrence that told them. It doesn't hurt for you to go and explore the possibility of filing with a federal agency, but even if that doesn't work out, you should also approach the federal agency, assuming that your state has such an agency that handles discrimination claims. MS. GRASSO: So, H.D., go back to the EEOC and also approach your state agency, but do it fast, because your time probably has run with the federal, and when Beverly says "told," she means there's something that might have stopped it from running, some incident, so you might still have some luck, but you've got to do it right away. Thanks so much for calling. TIPS ON FIGHTING SEXUAL HARASSMENT MS. GRASSO: Well, we're almost out of time for this hour, so before we wrap things up, let's go over a few of the key legal points of sexual harassment, and we'll call this Beverly Williams's House Blend for a Hassle-Free Work Place. For employees, don't make any sexual jokes or references while at work. Think of your grandmother, and whether she would be offended by your words or behavior, and make sure you report offensive conduct to your supervisor or human resources director. For employers, take allegations of sexual harassment very seriously. Make sure you implement a program and a plan for handling these cases. Beverly, I've read that it's a good idea to document every time an incident happens and also to document your work history, if you get good reviews and things, before you actually go to make a complaint. MS. WILLIAMS: I think that's good advice. Obviously, with the passage of time, people's memories -- including potential plaintiff's memories -- are not as good as they were when the incident occurred. The other thing is, as we discussed before, if you start getting negative evaluations after you've received nothing but glowing performance reviews, then at least then you have a record of your previous history, and you can demonstrate or at least have an inference drawn that there's something else going on, that you've been a good employee, and why would you change all of a sudden? MS. GRASSO: It seems very difficult to approach a supervisor and say, "This has been happening to me on the job. This one's been sexually harassing me." Is there any good way, easy way to do it? MS. WILLIAMS: You know, I don't think so, especially if the supervisor is the alleged harasser. Obviously, you're not going to report your complaints to that person. The human resource director or representative is another likely person. MS. GRASSO: That does it for hour one of our Thursday Legal Cafe. I apologize if we didn't have a chance to take your call, but we'll revisit sexual harassment in the near future, so please keep watching.