Court TV Host: Discuss the case of convicted murderer Stanley Tookie Williams, whose clemency request was denied today by California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. Williams is scheduled to be executed early tomorrow morning at San Quentin. Join the debate over the case with Nation magazine writer and clemency supporter Dave Zirin, author of What's My Name, Fool?: Sports and Resistance in the United States, and district attorney Joshua Marquis, from Clatsop County, Oregon, who opposed clemency.

Court TV Host: Our guests are here...thanks for being our guests today.

Question from Cortaid_a_Caroling: Welcome Mr. Zirin: Why should Tookie have received clemency?

Dave Zirin: Two main reasons: the first is the basic issue that there is a record of 70,000 people who have contacted Tookie or the Protocol for Peace and said that the reason they're not in gangs, not on the San Quentin express, is because of Tookie's direct intervention. It's an American tragedy that this man is being put to death. Along with China, this is probably the only country that would put a five-time Nobel nominee to death. The second reason is that it's hard to imagine how anyone could look at the trial of Tookie Williams and say that he received anything like a fair trial.

Joshua Marquis: First off, let's make clear that the U.S. is not the only democracy with the death penalty, Japan being prominent among others. Being nominated for a Nobel peace prize means nothing. I can nominate you. The issue about Mr. William's clemency is whether or not he deserves clemency for the murders he was convicted of, not the good works his followers claim.

Dave Zirin: The U.S. is the only Western nation with the death penalty, just so we don't get lost in lawyer speak about the death penalty, and 97% of all executions in the last year occurred in the US, China or Iran -- wonderful company when it comes to human rights.

Joshua Marquis: I think it's very ethnocentric to say that only Western countries count, and to compare the human rights record of U.S. with China is somewhat absurd, and not really on point about the execution of Mr. Williams.

Dave Zirin: I'd like to get back to talking about Mr. Williams, so we're not too ethnocentric for our globally-minded prosecutor here, South Africa's first act upon ending apartheid was the abolition of the death penalty -- a recognition that democracy and death cannot walk hand in hand. I'd be happy to talk about Tookie's case and why he shouldn't be murdered by the state of California.

Joshua Marquis: South Africa was a racist repressive state before it abolished the death penalty, with a history of genocide, and a state execution, while it is definitely the taking of a life cannot be compared to murder.

Question from Jinglen_Jackalope: Have the victims' family members forgiven Tookie, and if so, how do they feel about this man being put to death for murder?

Joshua Marquis: The names -- and they are important -- Albert Owens family, supports the execution, and the survivors of the Yang family, who he killed, also did not want to see him granted clemency. In fairness, I have to say that the Yang family is ambivalent about the death penalty, at least the surviving member.

Dave Zirin: People should go to www.savetookie.org and read a statement by a member of the Owens family, who feels otherwise. And for those people with another view, check out Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation, at www.mvfr.org/.

Question from chestnuts: Why give a man clemency when he wont give info on the Crips because he wont be a "snitch"....he's still supporting his gang.

Dave Zirin: First of all, Stan Tookie Williams has renounced his gang membership and emphatically denied that he is still a member of the Crips gang. Second of all, the reason why he has been able to have an unprecedented impact on the lives of disenfranchised kids is because he has their trust. In other words, the very thing that makes his existence so valuable to this country would evaporate if he chose to save his own skin by incarcerating others.

Joshua Marquis: Williams' refusal to cooperate with authorities and referring to it as "snitching," indicates he still subscribes to the gang culture -- that it is a worse sin to inform on a fellow gang member than to participate in a drive-by shooting.

Dave Zirin: That kind of rhetoric, which Stan Tookie Williams and everyone who supports him finds laughable, that snitching is worse than a drive by shooting - that would be an absolute joke if the results of this weren't so tragic. It is a fact that if you inform on others, you are not going to be listened to when you are trying to get kids out of the gang life. Stan Tookie Williams has prevented more drive by shootings than a 1000 tough-on-crime prosecutors like my friend Josh.

Joshua Marquis: There is nothing laughable about this at all.

Question from Colorado_Candice: What do you think the message of Mr. Williams' execution will be in the overall in the death penalty debate, or is it just another moment that will pass?

Joshua Marquis: I don't think there's a message in it, other than that the death penalty exists for the 1 in 500 murders that constitute the worst of the worst. Since 1976, there have been approximately 500,000 murders and approximately 1000 executions.

Dave Zirin: The message it sends is quite clear - it's that Mr. Williams is worth more dead -- no matter how many lives he could have intervened in and helped -- than he is worth alive, helping to bring peace into the streets. The message is that when it comes to the death penalty, issues of redemption and fair trials matter far less than gang hysteria and race. And we can go toe-to-toe on the statistics of race in the death penalty, but I fear Josh would lose, and lose badly.

Joshua Marquis: Mr. Williams is not being executed because he helped to found the Crips. He is being executed for the murder of Mr. Owens and the Yang family. California has executed 12 people since 1967. Mr. Williams, if he's executed tonight, will be the second African-American executed by California.

Dave Zirin: First and foremost, Josh's last statement would be news to the LAPD which put out a statement in support of Stan Williams' execution that highlighted his founding of the Crips as the central reason why he should die. In addition to that, it was an aggravating factor by prosecutors throughout the case. Would that they were all as fair-minded as Josh, perhaps we would have justice in this case. Lastly, where I live, in the great state of Maryland, we have seven people on death row - five are black, 100% are there for killing whites, even though black-on- white homicide makes up less than 2% of murders in the state. That's not opinion. Those are just facts that would make Bull Connor proud.

Joshua Marquis: In my state of Oregon, there are 29 people on death row - one is African-American.

Dave Zirin: Would that we all lived in Oregon.

Court TV Host: One of the people in our audience asked -- why do you say that Williams trial was not a fair one?

Dave Zirin: The reasons for this are very long. In Williams' retrial, he was presented to the court in shackles, a practice since found unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court. But the real issue has to do with physical evidence. Stan Williams has denied from day 1 that he committed these crimes. The shell casings did not match his rifle. The key witnesses in the case all cut significant deals. There is no physical evidence linking him to the crime scene. He was, in short, a target. This is a tragedy, not just for Stan Williams but for the Owens and the Yang family as well. Once again, people can go to www.savetookie.org to read a breakdown of the trial. Also, the prosecutor was censured for pulling African American jurors -- sometimes the jury is referred to as an all white jury, but I believe that's not the case -- but the prosecutor was censured for blocking jurors on the basis of race. Also, last point, the trial was moved from L.A. to Torrance, CA, not unlike when the L.A. police officers were moved from L.A. to Simi Valley in the Rodney King case.

Joshua Marquis: The Williams convictions have been affirmed many times by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, the circuit most suspicious of the death penalty in the U.S. And by the way, I don't know if Dave lives in Los Angeles, but Torrance is Los Angeles.

Dave Zirin: It's a suburb. I don't live there.

Dave Zirin: I don't think Josh or any ethical prosecutor would do this, but Tookie Williams was referred to as a "Bengal tiger" in open court and his South Central neighborhood was called "a jungle." This was exceptionally derelict, and gives lie to the idea that race had nothing to do with this prosecution.

Court TV Host: Any closing thoughts?

Joshua Marquis: A human death is always a tragedy, including Mr. Williams, but the Williams execution illustrates the greater debate about capital punishment in America, and about 70% of Americans believe that death is an appropriate punishment for some crimes.

Dave Zirin: The last poll I saw was 66%, and when Americans are given the choice of life without parole, that drops to 50%. There are children being born tonight who in 15 - 20 years will meet tragic ends because Stan Tookie Williams was not there to intervene. That's what Gov. Schwarzenegger and everyone for this execution will have to live with.

Dave Zirin: Thank you.

Joshua Marquis: Thank you.