ctv_will asks: Welcome! Welcome to Court TV and Yahoo Chat. We're going to be talking in a little while about the legacy of Lenny Bruce. Lenny Bruce was a comedian who basically set a whole new standard for what entertainers--and people in general--could say in public. We're going to be joined by lawyer Martin Garbus, who knew Lenny Bruce and who is a great defender of the Fist Amendment. Mr. Garbus will be limited in the time he can spend with us, so get your questions in now. Welcome. Keep those questions coming We're going to be talking about Lenny Bruce and the impact he had on the First Amendment. Lenny Bruce was the original controversial comedian. Our guest tonight is his former attorney, and defender of the freedom of speech Martin Garbus. Keep those questions and comments coming. For those of you wondering why we're talking about this, right now Court TV is showing a documentary on the life of Lenny Bruce. As soon as the documentary is over, you'll be able to ask about what was just shown. or, even if you haven't seen the documentary, feel to join in! Those of you watching, this is our guest talking right now!!!! We're going to get started at the top of the hour. Keep those questions coming. Not only has our guest tonight represented Lenny Bruce, but he's also represented Al Pacino, Spike Lee, Richard Gere, and Robert Redford. But this time let's keep the questions close to the subject of Lenny and free speech. :) Right now we're watching CTV's documentary on Lenny Bruce. Get your questions in now while there's a commercial! he's going to love that one etmom! Before we begin, a few points of order: No spamming. No being a jerk. If someone is ruining your enjoyment of this chat, click their name and click IGNORE. If you like, you may see the Q&A only by clicking the PREFERENCES BUTTON and making the appropriate selection. ping1200 asks: will could you give me and the rest of the room a brief run down of who we are going to be chatting with today? ctv_will: I'm about the get Martin Garbus logged on right now. He's an extremely famous trial lawyer who represented Lenny Bruce at one point in time. He's in the CTV documentary playing right now, and he's written at least one book on the subject His other previous clients range from Robert Redford to Nelson Mandella. We're talking Lenny Bruce and the First Amendment (free speech). I'm going to get him logged on now, keep those questions coming. brb I've got him here. Welcome. etmom6 asks: Did Lenny have as bad a drug problem as stated in the document program that was just on TV Martin Garbus: Yes, toward the end he did have that bad of a drug problem. He didn't have it at the beginning. He became more and more drug involved. ctv_will: Because of the hard time he was having with police? Martin Garbus: Yes. ax_greggory asks: Do you believe that politically correct is just another word for censorship? Martin Garbus: It's more complex than that. It can be but it need not be. It depends. ctv_will: What would Bruce have said about PC? Martin Garbus: I think he wouldn't have made fun of it in its worst form. I think he would have had a wonderful time with Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton. I think he would have had a wonderful time with Giuliani. I'd like to hear what he would say about the impeachment process and I'm sorry he's not here so we can hear him on that. To hear him talking about thongs flashing and oral sex and the like. etmom6 asks: are you still practicing court room law? If you are you should have TV coverage of all your trials....You look good on tv...the camera is your friend Martin Garbus: Thank you. See me when I 'm thinner. butchwhacks asks: Is Bruce's fight ongoing? Is there true freedom of speech? Martin Garbus: I think the fight is always ongoing. I think that recent attempts to ban the internet in ways that I though were unwise which were struck down by the Supreme Court shows that the struggle still goes on. There's the issues concerning gambling, tobacco...the issues are still there. Of course, you have R ratings in movies...the failure of the ratings system, now they're concerned about violence in the movies and that Hollywood is somehow responsible for that. ...that Hollywood is responsible for the killings at Columbine and Athens, Georgia, rather than the gun industry . The debate goes on. A little has changed in the debate, the language has gotten looser. Today's language makes Lenny Bruce's language pale by comparison. etmom6 asks: Do you think show business acts should be rated so the customers can choose the degree of obscenity they wish to hear or indure Martin Garbus: No, I think the rating system is awful because it's totally subjective. As the rating system came into Hollywood, "The Hayes Code," and then the rating system in the 40's and 50's on the theory that that would stop sexual material. And it turns out that that is not true at all. The rating system has no effect--no positive effect. If it did something, one might support it but all it does is it says somebody in society, could be the MPAA or the govt says this is good, that's bad, a question of moral judgment. I see no reason to take moral judgments from either the govt or a private agency. g_jazz asks: Do you belive the first amendment was only based upon truthful free speech, and not on untruthful free speech? Martin Garbus: No, I don't think one can tell what's truthful and what's not truthful, and I don't think anybody should be making that kind of judgment. --certainly not a government agency The whole idea of the first amendment is that you commit all speech--all the speech finds it level. The good speech gets appreciated as such and the bad speech gets driven out. Like all other theories, that has many falacies. Makmelaff asks: Lenny paved the way for comedians now... are their still states that have such obscenity laws such as not saying anything pertaining to the act of sex on stag? Martin Garbus: yes, there still are states that have obscenity laws under which bad language which is thought to be obscene can be prosecuted. ctv_will: Who would you compare Lenny Bruce to today? Martin Garbus: I don't think there's anybody today you could compare Bruce to. I think Bruce was an original. I think now it's become-- a lot of comedians become more homogenious. I can't think of anyone today who makes the kind of social criticizm and attacks on icons and authority that Lenny did. g_jazz asks: Do you believe that Larry Flynt from Hustler Magazine has the same right to publish what he publishes? Martin Garbus: I think Larry Flynt has the right to publish what he publishes. He wraps himself in the first amendment. I don't think he has any commitment to free speech other than what benefits his pocketbook. butchwhacks asks: Do the "seven words" still apply re. the FCC? Was that an actual court case? Martin Garbus: Some of it does apply, some of it doesn't apply. I think the FCC is probably more liberal than it has been but they can still have the right to crack down on those words. I think the case of any great moment was the George Carlin case. ctv_will: Didn't Lenny Bruce have a list of words too? Didn't his list preceed Carlin's? Martin Garbus: Yes, he had a list of words. He says "If I say think I get arrested, if I say this I get arrested..." of course he would say it. You use the number seven; He used to count them off, 4 letter words, eleven letter words...that's what he used to speak in terms of. "If I use this eleven letter word that starts with Mother then this is going to happen." etmom6 asks: Do you think any subject is too obscene to be mentioned in a public speech or act? Martin Garbus: Marin Lawrence did a movie about his performance and I represented that film before the MPAA. I can't think of any subject that Martin Lawrence did not touch. And that was TV. Mind you, there are different standards for TV than movies or radio or live acts. Movies come under heavier scriptures frequently than television or radio. g_jazz asks: Isn't that just the way capitalism goes? (i.e. Larry Flynt) ctv_will: Was Bruce very concerned with capitalism and making money? Martin Garbus: Bruce was not attempting to make a great deal of money, but one of the reasons he fell apart was all the arrests made it impossible for him to work. so that at the end of the day he was broken up into little pieces he had no money, so there is a relationship certainly between... Yes, that's what capitalism is, and that's why it's foolish to think that you can stop movies from showing violence and sex. becuase it makes too much money. Does Hollywood promote violnece? sure. Does it promote sex? Sure. Does it cause violence? No. Does it cause sexual perversion? No. ctv_will: Is that the answer to why he wasn't successful? We have comedians now who use foul language and do whatever and they've done quite well for themselves. Martin Garbus: To some extent Bruce has paved the way for them. In other words, they can now use that language. After the Bruce arrests, there was never a major arrest of any performer for language. After his death, which was so ghastly, it insulated later comics. no prosecutor would take a chance on another horrible debacle like that. butchwhacks asks: Do you feel that "Lenny" (the movie) was overall an accurate representation? Martin Garbus: I thought that Dustin Hoffman and Lenny Bruce are two totally different human beings. What the movie did, what Dustin Hoffman did, was make Bruce into someone who was whining rather than someone who was rageful. lummoxdung asks: what about Abby Hoffman, his arrests were pretty brutal ctv_will: Was that at the same time or after? Martin Garbus: That was pretty much after. Bruce's arrests were in '64 and Abby Hoffman was a little later, the civil rights movement and the Vietnam war. There was some overlap, but basically that was later. Probably at the time of Bruce he was still in college. ctv_will: Could Lenny Bruce as he was, have existed in any other time? Did the way society was then make him who he was? Martin Garbus: His language was offensive at that time. Today language would be relatively inoccuous. ctv_will: Would he have expanded his act to become deliberately offenseive today? Martin Garbus: He was not deliberately offensive. He was pointing fingers at hypocracy in society. Even if he didn't use that language, he was very funny, very bright, and very trenchant So, it's a mistake to think that he used language only to get attention. simsimanz asks: Did Lenny have idealistics views of how society should be? Martin Garbus: He wasn't a politician. He was aware of the hypocracy of politicians. I don't think he had a clear view of how society should be than that it shouldn't be cruel and oppressive and attacking people. he was a very warm decent human being. to himself and those close to him. SidshowBob asks: Who do you think would have paved the way if not for Lenny? Buddy Hackett? Martin Garbus: No, I don't think there was anybody out there then who was doing that. Some people think it could have been Mort Saul. I never heard hackett talk about the politics of the church or moralilty. Granted, he was very funny, but I never heard him make the kind of social commentary that Bruce made. ctv_will: OK, we knew our time with him would be short, and he has to go. Mr. Garbus, thank you very much for taking the time to be with us, I know you're a very busy man. Martin Garbus: Thank you. ctv_will: I know this was short guys, but I'll have the complete transcript up soon at www.courttv.com actually at www.courttv.com/talk Mr. Garbus is a pretty big mover and shaker, so we were lucky to get him as long as we did. absolut_muni asks: what is the 1st Amendment ctv_will: The first amendment is freedom of speech. basically butchwhacks asks: At the risk of sounding like a high school documentary, where can we learn more about this? (Free speech cases in?) ctv_will: Mr. Garbus wrote a book not too long ago called Tough Talk: How I Fought For Writers, comics, Bigots, and the American Way That's probably a good place to start. Makmelaff asks: Why did you try to get Lenny's conviction over turned even though Lenny was dead. ctv_will: Talking to him now, Mr. Garbus still speaks as though Lenny Bruce were still alive. (in a good way, not an insane way) At the very beginning he was talking about how he would have liked to have heard what Bruce would have had to say about the whole impeachment business, and there wasn't any quiet wistfulness in his voice, he sounded more like it was a show that he'd missed. I think Lenny Bruce made an extremely profound impression on him. evescad999 asks: doesn't any comedian use language to get attention ctv_will: The real thing about Lenny Bruce, even though he did use dirty words, was who he was making the butt of his jokes. It wasn't like that Chris Rock special where he just uses the F word every 2 seconds, it was that he was using those words while he was talking about the church, or politicians, or the police. Those things were still untouchable back then blacktemperance asks: I need to know your opinion on Wiccan relion not be accepted by the military ctv_will: dude, I have no idea what to say to you. maybe someone out there can help you. I don't think it makes sense that the military has anything to do with religion. If anyone should want to keep church and state separate it should be them. Grievous_Angel asks: Why is Speech misspelled in the banner? Is this some pun I'm missing? ctv_will: HA! no pun. I accept the blame as much as anyone else should. Let's just say that CTV Online has a diverse staff :D But it was my job to proof read, so blame me. coolmevlin asks: is this prerecorded? ctv_will: one in every crowd. ralla55 asks: i want to know who you are ctv_will: I'm no one. I produce chats for CTV Online. The chat ended early, so now I'm just a talking head. cougers97 asks: want to have oral sex with me? ctv_will: Do you realize that this comment alone reveals you to be under the age of 18? Have you heard about oral sex being the new teen craze? Who's to blame? Clinton? Makmelaff asks: it's okay Will... there is a new program that can do wonders for you... it's call Spell Check... nudge nudge wink wink... ctv_will: That's my favorite bit of software, but you can't spell check a graphic :( Since we're all hanging out, let me just remind everyone that this Wednesday we're having our usual Crime and Justice News of the Week chat at 6pET, and then... We'll be talking to a lady who went into the prison for the criminally insane and interviewed serial killers, a cannibal, and the Son of Sam killer himself. That's after her documentary on CTV at 11pET. With all of this Summer of Sam hype, I think she's the only one to get an interview with Berkowitz. Unless I missed one. And Thursday is our LIVE ON-AIR chat--sort of. Lionel is doing a live view call in show, and he's going to take a few online comments, and then he's going to get on line with us. That's on Thursday. Check the club clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/theofficialcourttvclub or the TALK page www.courttv.com/talk for details. cougers97 asks: ctv will i want you to anwser this question if you have the nuts enough too ctv_will: Which of the incredibly deep and intriguing questions would you like me to address? Quick poll of the room, how many people have Mr. Cougers on their ignore list? :> etmom6 asks: can you get some info about the George Carlin Case that Mr. Garbus mentioned ctv_will: I'll see what I can find. Whatever I get I'll put on the club board. Makmelaff asks: Keep us posted... The email keeps me posted on up coming things as I don't hit the web site often... thank you for sending them. ctv_will: I didn't send the last newsletter, I just posted it on the board. The group e-mail software for the club is not the best. I think it's called CTV Update on the board. Check it out. There's a cool bit of info about Fred Graham participating in the message boards at the TALK page As you may have noticed, one of my big goals is to get online and on-air a little more intermingled. migraine2000 asks: long live lenny!!!! ctv_will: migraine, I just wanted to get your name up there. evescad999 asks: is their going to be an ann rule domumentary? ctv_will: Good question. I had the pleasure of interviewing Ms. Rule back when her last book came out. I booked her to appear on CTV's Pros & Cons, or maybe it was as long ago as Prime Time Justice...anyway, I still have her phone number. Do you think she would be a good chat guest even though she doesn't have anything recent out? I could give her a call at least. For those who don't know, Ann Rule is a very famous true crime author. evescad999 asks: she would be a fabulous chatter evescad999 asks: Bitter Harvest? ctv_will: I think that was the one. The thing that I always feel bad about with Ann Rule is that she was friends with Ted Bundy before he was a serial killer. She used to work with him and he would walk her to her car at night and everything. So whenever she's being interviewed, inevitably the interviewer ends up asking a lot of Bundy questions. Chat would be a good forum for her. evescad999 asks: can you see what we type under chat or only under "ask"? ctv_will: The only thing that can be seen from this end is the stuff that comes through the ASK prompt. The reason is that Yahoo! breaks the chatters into rooms of 20 to keep the scroll from going too fast. That means that even though everyone sees the same Q&A, there are usually many chat rooms going on at once. evescad999 asks: are the other 20's more interesting? ctv_will: I don't know if it's possible to skip around from room to room with a single chat. I do know that the rooms develop differences, but I don't know how to work that to anyone's advantage. The Q&A is the same for everyone. Being that this chat has been over for almost 40 minutes, it's a wonder that there are still people here. You may have noticed that the misspelled graphic has changed. That means that this room is closed to outsiders. The room will stay open as long as people stay in it, but no one else can join (until Wednesday at 6pET) evescad999 asks: Ann Rules' latest book (I'm reading now), a compliation is about a bank robber and it is fascinating because of her STYLE ctv_will: I do have another true crime writer coming to chat on the 17th of August. Fairstein I think her name is. She used to work on the NYPD sex crimes unit. I'm still waiting for her PR people to send me her book though. evescad999 asks: what about Joe McGinness, anything new? ctv_will: I don't think I know Joe McGinness. Evescad, are you a member of the CTV Yahoo Club? if not, you should join and I'll send notice when we get Ann Rule. clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/theofficialcourttvclub evescad999 asks: he wrote FATAL VISION about the Jeff McDonald murders ctv_will: Ah yes, of course. Are you in the same room as etmom? I believe she knew Jeff McDonald, or at least, she knows a lot about the case. etmom6 asks: bye for now...see ya tomorrow..and tell my folks to behave in NYC ctv_will: I don't know if she's still here though. Has McGinness done anything lately that would justify having him for a chat? The McDonald case is kind of old isn't it? evescad999 asks: McDonald is a sociopath like oj - he believes he is innocent ctv_will: I thought there was some new and startling evidence out there about the prosecutor being up to no good or something (in the McDonald case). Isn't there a big story behind the story? I'll try to find out when CTV is repeating it's McDonald documentary and then see if I can get McGinness to join us. Sometimes writers are reluctant to talk about something that they haven't been thinking about lately though. A lot of writers work by momentum, and they don't like to lose focus on what they're working on in the present. but it never hurts to ask. It occurs to me that we probably should have just taken this chat to the club chat room. Oh well. I have to go so I can wake up in time to meet etmom's relatives who are visiting NYC. What chat moderator does that I ask you?!?! Anyway, I'll see you on Wednesday, or in the club room. or I'm Yahoo-pageable. evescad999 asks: I don't want to talk about McDonald, McDonald sued him and lost ctv_will: Oh. The best bet is probably to call McGinness and see if there's anything he wants to talk about. Ok, I'm out. This chat has ended, you may go in peace. :)