ctv_will: Welcome to Court TV Online chats. At the top of the hour we'll be speaking to Bell Chevigny. She is the editor of "Doing Time" a book of writings by prison inmates. The writings are the winners of an annual contest held by an organization called PEN. For the last 25 years they've been soliciting entries from prison inmates, and the winners are in this book. I'm not sure if it's all the winner, we'll have to ask Bell that question. Also joining us-- a surprise guest, if you will, is Chuck Culhane. Mr. Culhane is a former prison inmate and vice president of the Western New York Peace Center's Prison Action Committee. He is also a PEN prize winner, and has a few poems in "Doing Time". So what are we going to talk about? Prisons. We'll talk about what's wrong with them and what's right with them. We'll talk about prison reform, and the death penalty. We'll talk about prisoner rehabilitation--whether it works, how it works. Do you think prisoners have it easy? Do you think they have it too hard? Does a prison writing contest strike you as a little odd? Something that I didn't mention to Bell, but I wonder what she thinks, is what about all these movies coming out... Green Mile, Hurricane Carter, Shawshank Redemption, Dead Man Walking... Is the public's opinion of the prison system changing? Bell Chevigny: Another important question: what is the experience of women, who are the fastest growing segment of the prison population. ctv_will: Hi Bell. Bell Chevigny: hi ctv_will: I'll be doing the typing for Bell, but she's logged in so she can see what's going on. Speaking of Mr. Culhane being an activist, I liked his quote in his bio: He is working on "abolition of the death penalty and the liberation of the innocent, the not-so-innocent, and the downright guilty who've paid their price." Bell Chevigny: PEN stands for Poets, Essayists and Novelists: this organization is the only place where prisoners have had their writing read for 27 years annually. I mentioned those movies earlier as something that might be softening public opinion, but what about recently publicized crimes? Things like Columbine and other very public crimes have certainly had an impact on what the public thinks we should do with criminals and it's not "soft on crime." bubbah72 asks: Bell:Just acquired your book yesterday so no chance to read it yet, however since prisoners cannot profit while incarcerated who does reap the rewards of this book, & since Mr Culhane is now free, does he get a portion of the profits daisypusher23 asks: Do book proceeds go to the families of the victims? ctv_will: Let's talk about the book first: Chuck Culhane: I was given a flat fee for several poems. Bell Chevigny: The book was made possible because I was given a grant from the Center on Crime, Communities and Culture of the Open Society Insitutute, Geore Soro's organization. When I got a book contract, I agreed that all of my advance would go to the 51 men and women who were in the book. Those men and women have, over the past 25 years, won prizes in the 25 annual contest sponsored by the PEN American Center prison writing program. From the winners I selected 80 pieces - poetry essays and fiction, and then had to find the authors. When I found them, which was often very difficult, I had to have each give me permission and have them tell me their story- expecially how they became writers. So there is a lot of background information contained in the book- a lot of personal histories which are in many ways as remarkable as the writings themselves. Because these people have overcome extraordinary obstacles to become the writers and the transformed people that they are. bubbah72 asks: with 1.8 mil. men & women in prison, how do you propose they handle the overcrowding withoust sacrificing safety from criminals in US Bell Chevigny: In February, it will be 2 million men and women in jail and prison. And extrordinary number of these people have been arrested for very minor crimes. Only a very tiny fraction have been arested for very violent crimes. Part of this has to do with the war on drugs and harsh mandatory minimum sentences, and some has to do with things like the three strikes you're out laws that started in California. If people remember that over 90 percent of prisoners are ultimately released, they should want them to be as prepared to be integrated as productively as possible. Community based alternatives to prison could take away at least 50 percent of people in jail. Give them proper education and treatments to make them productive members of society. And for those who remain in prison, real treatment, usable work experience for liveable wage jobs, education beyond secondary level- academic and vocational-- that would help them. And many prisoners in the absence of programs have rehabilitated themselves and they should be paroled. Those things would help reduce prison size, restore the outlandish prison budgets to things like schools which could help prevent crime in the first place. Chuck Culhane: One other thing that I would mention is that political decisions are at the heart of the problem. Inspried by two factors. One is racism, the other is fear. And that is not to say that some people shouldn't be in prison, but as Bell mentioned,the numbers are just unbelievable. timmyleary asks: im going to jail pretty soon. for a probvation violation. my question is how lickly will i be abel to get put in rehad instead of jail? ctv_will: Speaking of the war on drugs.... timmyleary asks: drug charges Bell Chevigny: Some cities have drug courts where you get put in rehab situations instead of jail, but there are far too few of them. ctv_will: What can he expect from jail? Any help? Bell Chevigny: They vary enormously. Chuck Culhane: Different programs different prisoners. Bell Chevigny: I saw a jail in San Francisco where women had round the clock drug rehab. And part of the therapy has to be that they don't fall back into their old habits once they get released. A wonderful organization called CURE is trying to get NY State to repeal the unjust drug laws. bubbah72 asks: Good Will, just what do either of them think about the way prisons are presented in such movies as Hurrican, The Green Mile, etc. Bell Chevigny: I'd like to recommend Dead Man Walking, and I'd like to comment on the Carter movie.... Hurricane Carter was released in 1985 because he appealed his unjust conviction in 1966 through Habeus Corpus -As Leon Friedman notied in a NY Tmes Op Ed,- President Clinton watched the movie with Carter and congratulated him on his persistence and courage in getting out of prison, but in 1996, Clinton himself signed a bill that would make it impossible for another convicted prisoner to find justice that way. Chuck Culhane: I saw the Greem Mile recently. It was very entertaining. I thought the guards were depicted well, but I didn't see my peers in the inmates. They were depicted either as evil or dumb. But as a metaphor it was good. Kind of like science fiction. Bell Chevigny: There's a great movie called "Slam" that won a prize last year. It's about a kid caught up in drugs in DC who was a poet, and about his experiene in the DC jail. Around the country,one out of every four African Americans in their 20's is in the criminal justice system, but in DC it's one out of three. This movie is a very important illustration of the revolving door policy in DC and of the racism of the criminal justice system and of the power of writing to help a prisoner not only survive but become a positive leader. Richard Spratton, who's story is in "Doing Time" is the co-author of "Slam." ctv_will: "Doing Time" has a web site by the way... Bell Chevigny: If people buy the book from the web site, some of the revenue will got to the PEN prison writing program. ctv_will: www.doingtime.org bubbah72 asks: Culhane:Re: your quote "the downright guily who have paid their price", after being in prison culture for possibly,how can anyone be sure they are prepared for life outside & are rehabilitated,or is it just chance Chuck Culhane: It's very subjective, there are no guarantees. People can come out and fall on their face. But what bothers me is that so much money is spent on punishing people and not so much is spent on re-integration. It's like the system is set up for failure. Sometimes people change in spite of the system. But a lot of people fail because they don't have the rehab, the education, the training, etc. Bell Chevigny: I think the importance of people serving reasonably short terms or better yet, if appropriate, serving some communtiy alternative is especially important in the case of women. Women prisoners are the fastest growing segment of the prsion population, thanks to the war on drugs. 85% of women prisoners are mothers and they're ususally the primary care giver. People know that nothing influences a child's own educational attainment more than the mother's educational attainment. So we have to be helping the mothers in our community to get the help they need to keep children from following in their footsteps. Last year in the NY Times it was revealed that there are 7 million children in the US with parents in jail, prison, or probation/parole. And the pattern of children following the parents is very shocking, so for the country's future, we have to help men and women to become productive members of the communtiy and not show the next generation only how to serve time. In "Doing Time," many women write about this. Many write about the agony they feel in being separated from their children. One prize winner, Jude Norton, writes a wrenching story about her son being denied visitation rights to her in prison. Other women write about trying to help their children choose the right path from a distance. Chuck Culhane: I edited a book entitled "Women in the Justice System" and the book was about women in the system, and I guess the common theme was, as Bell mentioned, the anguish of mothers separated from children and the helplessness of how they feel. The vast majority of people, women especially, are non-violent offenders. I remember one woman with AIDS at a convention--she was permitted to attend-- and she was in a wheel chair and it was so bad that she couldn't walk, but They still had her in leg shackles, and I think that shows the mentality of the system. I would mention too, that though women make up a small percentage of the population, they are often very active in improving conditions where they are and also doing political work, helping change laws and things like that. I know they've been very active in New York passing positive legislation. Also self help groups like ACE which helps women with AIDS while they're inside. Bell Chevigny: ACE=AIDS Counselling and Education. Bell Chevigny: The women behind bars that are featured in "Doing Time" have been extraordinarily creative in working with women with AIDS and education and helping each other. 80 percent of women experienced abuse before going to prison, but the women can be very nurturing in prison. One surprise for those of us reading prisoners' writings over 25 years is how many of the men save themselves as whole human beings by taking care of someone more unfortunate than themselves-- mentally ill perhaps, because now prisons house people who used to be cared for in mental insutitutions. 16% of US prisoners are mentally ill. And several stories in "Doing Time" deal with the compassion a man comes to feel for such fellow prisoners, even though everything in the prison culture tells him to be hard and tough and merciless. For example, Robert Kelsey has a story called "Suicide!" in "Doing Time." He killed a child when he was drunk and driving. When he was awaiting trial he asked to become a suicide watch counsellor on the mental observation unit- where they watch suicide risks. The story is about him doing that job with humor and compassion and thereby preventing himself from committing suicide out of his own remorse. Going back back to the earlier question about victims, someone asked about the families of victims. I think there's a false assumption that prisoners feel no remorse for what they've done. That's not true. One remarkable writer in "Doing Time" writes two stories from the point of view of a woman who's father was killed, and she herself almost killed by a crazed trigger happy junkie. In one story she goes back to confront him 13 years later. This author's capacity to imagine a victim is, to my mind, a creative leap of pennance. Many of our writers are on death row, as Chuck was also. And I would like to read a couple of lines from a prisoners who faced capital punishment, a man who is stricken with remorse for the killing he did accidentally: His name is Jackie Ruzas and while he was facing a capital trial, he wrote this prize winning poem "Easy to Kill" Play my life back on this death cell wall,/ I wish to see my first wrong step/ to those who want to take my life show me where I first started to lose it. samangel97 asks: how about his victims any compassion for them? bubbah72 asks: How do either of you feel regarding the very "young" children we are now prosecuting as adults, what should we do with them sirfinny asks: what do you think about the young offenders act? Chuck Culhane: Generally I oppose people being punished uselessly. I think that to push back the years when people can be put in confinement is just perpetuating and expanding a disfunctional system. And not just widening the net of offenders. I think if resources are put into the communities that are hurting and historically neglected, put into the infrastructure of those communities, that will address the real problems in America. Bell Chevigny: A year ago it seemed to me that we were demonizing young black males the way we used to demonize communitsts in this country. And that's still happening, but since Columbine, young people as a whole are being demonized. they are bieng called animals and beasts. We now have 41 states that have made it easier to try kids as young as 12 as adults. The most horrific juvenile crime initiative is going up before the people of CA on March 7th. According to that initiative, proposed by former gov. Pete Wilson, prop.21 -- 14 year old graffitti writers could get 3 years in prison. And felony charges could be handed to middle school students for any activitiy construed as gang recruitment. Last night the fiction committee of the PEN committee gave a prize to a story that take place in 2025 and decribes a system where people are locked up at birth for being male. It doesn't seem like that kind of crazy day is too far off given this inclination to lock up kids for being, in effect, too much on the street. It's really shocking to think of our country becoming so wholey vindictive and books like "Doing Time" and other prison writing books like the one Chuck created, do a lot to show us that these people behind bars are like us, except perhaps more thoughtful and more disciplined, and sometimes more compassionate. samangel97 asks: I think they are only remorse becuase of where they are Chuck Culhane: Some say that circumstances determine consciousness. I guess if someone isn't caught, and continues doing wrong, there is no chance of interevening. But I know a lot of people, particularly long timers who practically grew up in prsion who are good people. People with empathy for others, with a sense of humor, who can overcome the dispair of prison, with the strength to overcome the negative stigma of prison. Lots of strong people. I think the cynics who think that people in prison don't have feelings and can't change...I know that to be untrue. ctv_will: Ok, we have to start wrapping up. Could you guys give us some closing remarks? Bell Chevigny: Sister Helen Prejan points out that most people distrust prisoners and think they'll say anything to win sympathy to get out or get something. And of course that's a legitimate question, but just take a look at their words. She ends her introduction in the book by saying just take a look at them. That's all we ask. We put people out of sight, mind, and earshot in greater numbers than every country in the world. We belive in hearing minority voices, and we believe in diversity, just take a chance to listen to these voice. It's fine to be skeptical, but listen. You'll hear about the horrible things you hear on TV and see in the movies, but it won't be presented quite the same, and you'll hear things you wouldn't imagine. Like the story of Jimmy Santiago Baca, who stole a prison staff person's text book out of anger and spite, but when he looked at the words with his flashlight at night, and sounded them out because he really couldn't read yet, he was transformed with the possibilities for his wreched life, and he became and eminent writer-- but he's also a committed spokesperson for prisoners, and spends time in prisons teaching literacy to his fellow prisoners. That stands for the kind of transformation that's possible to people tested as we never are by cruelty and deprivation. And for that reason alone, people should sample this book. ctv_will: There are some exerpts at Amazon by the way. And here's one of Chuck's that I have on my clip board: With the small birds// The sparrows and the grackles there seemed enough bread to stave off the fighting and death.// Then the gulls came// Hollow desperate and shrieking// Replacing the peaceful feeding rituals// with survival's bare wings// Beating at the windows. jmcheever_2000 asks: who author who confronts the crazed happy junkie? i have the book here Bell Chevigny: His name is J.C Amperchele. oliviajohnston39 asks: Is it true the correctional officers abuse inmates? Chuck Culhane: I could certainly say first that there are decent people inside, and there are some who are abusive who use their power negatively. I would be afraid to paint everyone with the same broad brush. I would say the same about the prisoners, just because they're in prison, they shouldn't be written off as bad or useless. Hopefully with this kind of dialog we'll dispell some of the myths about prisoners and corrections officers. People are people, and they should be treated as individuals. Bell Chevigny: "Doing Time" covers the spectrum on attitudes towards corrections officers from a brilliant poem by an African America named Henry Johnson about how one white guard inducts a new white guard into the job at Attaca and explains that you have to be racist to quell your fear. At the other extreme, there are a couple of brilliant stories, one by a white guy name Michael Wayne Hunter, who is on death row in CA. It deals with his real experience with a black guard with whom he had a tense disagreement, which eventually turned into a developing friendship and trust. Another story by Scott Antworth deals with a hated prison guard accompanying the narrator to his grandmother's funeral- the prisoner has to go in shackles. The story has a suprise twist that illustrates that when both men get beyond the wall, they're capable of getting beyond their insititutionalzation and getting to their humanity. This story was just accepted in Best New American Voices 2000 along with another story called feathers in the solar wind by David Wood. The editor says these are among his three favorite stories in the book. And it's a nation wide workshop. ctv_will: Ok thank you very much for taking this time with us. Chuck Culhane: Thanks for having me. Bell Chevigny: Thanks very much. ctv_will: And thanks to those of you who came to chat. The book's web site is www.doingtime.org. We're going to have another CTV chat at 5, so we'll be starting preparations for that soon. If any of you missed any part of this chat, I'll have the transcript up on the CTV talk page soon. that's www.courttv.com/talk speaking of that, pardon me while I roll the credits.... 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