ctv_will: Welcome to Court TV Online chats.
As some of you may have heard, this is the 5th anniversary of the Oklahma City bombing.
It is the worst terrorist attack on US soil ever.
Right now Court TV is showing a new documentary about Tim McVeigh.
As soon as the documentary ends we'll be joined by Court TV's Tim Sullivan who covered the trial of Tim McVeigh extensively.
The documentary just mentioned that McVeigh was a meth head.
I didn't realize he was a druggie.

A few stats for those of you who are interested...
The bombing was April 19th, 1995
168 dead
19 of them children.
more than 500 injured
The documentary on CTV is up to the Waco incident right now.
That's what they say the OK City bombing was in retaliation for.
What do you think of that?
I don't think McVeigh was a Davidian though.
He was just anti-government.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the OK City bombing.
I'll be interested to hear what Mr. Sullivan thinks of that.
Was it just McVeigh and Nichols?
I didn't realize that Fortier had such a big role in picking the target of the bomb.
Whatever happened to him?

We couldn't have a better guest. Tim Sullivan knows just about everything there is to know about this case.
We haven't heard a whole lot about terrorist acts in the US. Does that mean we're safe?
Was there anything anyone could have done to prevent the bombing?
They opened a new memorial for the victims in OK City today.
It cost the government millions, but I think it was worth it.

What's odd is that McVeigh was on the way to being a special forces army guy, and then everything went bad for him.
If things had been a little different, if he had passed that test, he would have been one of the people in charge of finding/fighting someone like who he ended up being.
Talk about irony.
It also seems odd to me that McVeigh thought there needed to be revenge for Waco, but
I've chatted with David Thibodeau, a Waco survivor, and even though he was angry, he didn't mention anything about revenge.
Just out of curiosity, how many of you out there blame the government for the bombing?
Should the government had known about Tim McVeigh?
Afterall, he was trained by the army.
Don't they do psych. evaluations?
Do they just teach people how to kill, use them in a war, and then let them back into society all wound up?
Sounds like there should be a lawsuit in there.
I don't even know if any of the survivors tried to sue the government over this.
Someone should ask that one so I can put it to Tim Sullivan when he gets here.
I don't see any questions about the initial racism of the suspect profile.
Do you think the fact that the government was initially looking for an Middle Eastern person cost them in the pursuit?

Ok, the Court TV documentary is over and Tim Sullivan is here, so lets get started.
Welcome Mr. Sullivan.
Tim Sullivan: Thanks, Will. Glad to be here.

choir_chick_2002 asks: HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE INJURED?
Tim Sullivan: The estimates for injuries vary, but I think it was probably about 1,000.
168 were killed and at least 500 were treated on the day of the bombing. Lot of injuries were probably never reported, and none of that covers psychological injury.

samflynow7 asks: do you know how many people, family, survvivors, recurer have committed sucide from this
Tim Sullivan: I don't know the official number of suicides. But I heard testimony at the trials of McVeigh and Nichols from dozens of people with serious psychological problems...
Even years after the bombing, people still suffer nightmares; others testified that members of the family were never the same after that day; many went into severe depressions and are still in therapy.

daisypusher23 asks: Did the army create McVeigh?
Tim Sullivan: I think McVeigh is a very complex man, whose psyche was influenced by many sources.
Certainly the Army was a huge influence on McVeigh, but I believe it's too simple to say that he became a mass killer because he flunked out of Special Forces training, or because he was disillusioned by the Gulf War.
This is a guy who was hoarding water in his basement at the age of 10, according to some acquaintances, and his fascination with guns dates back well before his Army experience.
The Army may have been an envrironment in which McVeigh deteriorated. But keep in mind we're talking about a severe racist, a deluded man who had trouble differentiating reality from fantasy, and was narcissistic.
Of course, there's a school of thought that says people like McVeigh are just evil.

Caleb2101 asks: what was the main reason for the bombing what was the terrorist protesting about
lfilingo asks: was the real reason ever foumd ..WHY did he bomb the fed building on this day 5 yrs ago
crimeycrime asks: How did they pick THAT target of all things????
Tim Sullivan: There are lots of informed opinions about these questions, all of which probably have some truth to them.
The closest thing we've ever had to an explanation from McVeigh himself is the Waco explanation. That is, he was seeking to avenge the deaths of the Branch Davidians, for which he held the FBI responsible.
He picked that day partly because it was the Waco anniversary. But it was the Waco anniversary because April 19 is Patriot's Day, and some in the militia movement believe the FBI chose that day to assault the Davidian compound as a slap in the face to the militias.
Why was the Murrah Bldg chosen? Some believe because it was an easy target. Others believe it was because McVeigh thought that Bob Ricks, one of the lead FBI agents at Waco, worked in the Murrah Bldg. (He really worked in another building a few miles away.)
Others believe it was because McVeigh was hooked up with a militia group in Eastern Oklahoma that had targetted the building some years earlier ---- and they already had the blueprint for the assault in place when McVeigh came along.

tobyvalley asks: when are they going to execute timothy mcveigh
crimeycrime asks: When is McVeigh scheduled to die?
p_e_t_e_r_24 asks: is he done with court or is he appealing?
Tim Sullivan: He is not scheduled to die on a specific date. There's only a handful of people on federal death row --- about a dozen -- and they've been there an average of five years. I expect that McVeigh will be executed within the next five years. His appeals are not yet exhausted, but I don't expect any of them to succeed.

samflynow7 asks: why did the media only focus on the one bullding when the truth is there was devestation for miles
Tim Sullivan: Because 99% of the dead were in that building. There was damage to other buildings in the area, and some were destroyed, but nothing came close to the death toll and destruction at the Murrah. All of the other buildings damaged were covered by the media.

daisypusher23 asks: Wasn't there a 3rd person involved in the bombing?
Tim Sullivan: At least.
You're probably referring to Michael Fortier, an Army buddy of McVeigh and Terry Nichols, who pled guilty to withhoding knowledge of the bombing. He's serving about 12 more years.
There's evidence that there may have been as many as five or six people involved in the plot, but the federal government never developed enough evidence to charge anybody else, according to the FBI.

crimeycrime asks: What do you think of OK City conspiracy theories?
Tim Sullivan: It has been proven that there was a conspiracy involving McVeigh and Nichols, and that Fortier, at the very least, had knowledge of it.
The real question, in my opinion, is how much larger was that conspiracy?
I personally believe there were two or three others involved, perhaps more.
But there are lots of theories, some quite outlandish. For example, I don't give much credence to the conspiracy theory that holds that the ATF had prior knowledge of the bombing and allowed it to happen, in the hope of "stinging" the bombers and becoming heroes.
That doesn't make sense to me. But I do believe the conspiracy was bigger than McVeigh/Nichols and that the government has never revealed all it knows about the plot.

DPWLeaderNo1 asks: How worried was the FBI about the possibility of McVeigh's friends attacking them
ok_lonely_lady asks: i wonder why people didn't have a clue it could happen considering that OKC housed the idiots that did Waco?
Tim Sullivan: There's some evidence that the feds were warned about possible retaliation for Waco. And it's been proven in court that Carol Howe, an ATF informant in the eastern Oklahoma militia, warned the ATF that people in that compound were planning to bomb federal buildings in Tulsa or OKC.
But Carol Howe apparently never specifically mentioned the Murrah Building or provided a date.
The big mistake the feds made, according to some observers, was in not holding somebody accountable for the deaths at Waco. An editor at Soldier of Fortune, who testified at McVeigh's trial, said that if people at ATF/FBI were held responsible for Waco, there would have been no OKC bombing. I think there's a lot to that theory.

samflynow7 asks: what i do not understand, if he was trying to make a statement about something, then why did he say "not guilty, and won't really talk
HOME72 asks: Mr. Moderator., has Mr. Mc veigh made declarations about him being responsible for the bombing or why he did it?
Tim Sullivan: This is a tough one. But we've seen it before in terrorists.
At the World Trade Center trial, letters were introduced from the suspects claiming credit for the bombing --- yet they denied their guilt in court.
Often terrorists refuse to recognize the authority of the state that brings them to trial, so they won't admit having committed acts that are called crimes by the state --- but that they consider acts of war. In this way, McVeigh can deny he committed a crime --- he probably thinks he didn't ---- because in his mind it was a justifiable act.
This kind of denial is common to some narcissistic killers as well.

daisypusher23 asks: Is there still a "war" between militias and the government? Haven't heard much lately.
sweetpeasb asks: why haven't we heard much about the terrorist lately
lisa33_14706 asks: What is the government doing today to make sure that we dont have another tragedy like this?
Tim Sullivan: There's nothing the government can do to ensure this doesn't happen again. They will tell you they are taking all sorts of precautions, which they are, such as better security at federal buildings, better design/architecture, etc.
But it's really not possible to prevent an act like McVeigh's if the killer is determined.
We haven't heard much about the so-called war between the militias and the feds because there's been no huge crime or seige recently. But lots of smaller conflicts and obscure crimes still go on, and groups such as the Southern Poverty Law Center continue to monitor the militias.
I believe militias remain a threat, and I don't believe the feds are competent enough to prevent future acts of domestic terrorism.
But they'll do their best with surveillance and prevention --- and they'll no doubt prevent some crimes --- it's just that there's no way to rid our world of evil.

daisypusher23 asks: Why did his sister get off so easy?
daisypusher23 asks: Why did they give Fortier a deal?
deheda asks: shouldn't Fortier and Nichols have been punished the same as Mcveigh
Tim Sullivan: Despite what prosecutors claimed at trial, they made sweetheart deals with Fortier and McVeigh's sister because they needed their cooperation to convict McVeigh.
The case against McVeigh was strong -- but it was circumstantial. Without Fortier, they probably would not have convicted McVeigh at all.
McVeigh's sister was never in serious jeopardy. She probably violated some laws by withholding information, but there's no evidence that she had the kind of prior knowledge of the crime that Fortier had.
As for Nichols, the government hoped they be punished the same -- with death.
But the government had no clear, convincing evidence that Nichols knew specifically what the target of McVeigh's conspiracy was.
I believe, based on the evidence, that Nichols knew of McVeigh's intention to bomb some sort of federal target. But I'm not certain Nichols knew it was the Murrah Building.
Also, the government couldn't really prove that Nichols helped McVeigh build the bomb ---- and Nichols defense team did a great job.

krich62 asks: why the hell wont the govt. admit its murder of the branch davidians in waco?
lisa33_14706 asks: How can the public blame the FBI or other government agencies for the act of an individual that obviously wasnt all there?
girl_alone007 asks: i blame the govt
Tim Sullivan: Certainly McVeigh "wasn't all there." He was not only stupid, but was probably psychopathic as well. So, the government can't logically be blamed for his actions.
But there is logic in the argument that the federal government seriously mishandled Waco, and that the feds are at least partially responsible for the deaths of the Davidians.
And clearly, the deaths of the Davidians were part of what motivated McVeigh. In that way, the government may bear some responsibility.
As to why the government won't admit that responsibility? I think it's because it doesn't have to. The government blamed Koresh, and Janet Reno said she was in charge, and the Congress let it stop there. Why should the feds admit responsibility for 80 deaths if they can avoid diong so?

ok_lonely_lady asks: has McVay even addressed the killing of children?
Tim Sullivan: Yes.
In his recent interview with "60 Minutes" I believe he said it was regrettable that children died, thus implying that he didn't know the day care center was in the Murrah Bldg.
However, the evidence at trial indicated that McVeigh did know the day care center was there ---- you could see it from the street and McVeigh had previously visited the building more than once.
Most interesting to me on this topic is the fact that, during the penalty phase of his trial, McVeigh had his lawyer play a folk song that was written for the dead children at Waco. I watched McVeigh as we all listened to that song, and he very nearly cried. It was the most emotional I ever saw him during the trial. I believe he was seriously scarred by the deaths of the Davidian children at Waco --- and maybe he saw the deaths of the OKC children as some kind of poetic justice.
This is just a theory of mine.

samflynow7 asks: we miiss seeing you in the camera, Tim.
Tim Sullivan: Thanks. I'm producing our trial coverage now, and enjoying it. I don't often miss being on TV --- but I do miss being in the middle of story sometimes.

crimeycrime asks: Do you think anything bad will happen this week for the aniversary?
lisa33_14706 asks: Are the federal buildings on heightened security at the moment with this being the anniversary?
Tim Sullivan: I assume federal buildings are on heightened security this week --- but part of being on alert is not admitting that you're on alert, so it's hard to tell.
I don't anything very big will happen this week ----- meaning violence to mark the anniversary. I'm not aware of any real support for McVeigh out there in what's left of the militia movement.
There is anger toward the govt, and I think the current drive for stricter gun control might increase that anger. But I don't sense that anybody sees the OKC bombing as an event to be proud of and celebrate.

ctv_will: Just a couple more, then we have to wrap up....

Editor's note: This question got lost. The chatter asked whether the families of victims had sought or received compensation.

Tim Sullivan: The government covered expenses for families that want to go to Denver to see the trials, and helped in other ways.
At the Nichols trial, the judge ordered that Nichols must pay restitution to the families --- this will never happen, but it prevents him from making money from a book or movies.
There is a civil suit against the federal govt, charging that the ATF had prior knowledge through informers and failed to stop the bombing. If the plaintiffs (about 100 I think) win that suit, they'll get some serious money from the government.

DPWLeaderNo1 asks: Was McVeigh planning on starting terrorist cells like The Turner Diaries call for?
Tim Sullivan: Yes. This is why I said earlier he couldn't distinguish fantasy from reality. He seemed to think the Turner Diaries was non-fiction.
He apparently believed that the OKC bombing would be the event that would spark the populist revolution that would overthrow the federal government.

samflynow7 asks: what is the status of the state trial for Nickols? I hope it will be on CTV
Tim Sullivan: The preliminary hearing for Terry Nichols in OKC is slated for this coming August.
We have applied for permission to televise that hearing, and we hope to later televise the trial, assuming it happens.

ctv_will: Ok, we have to end it there. Thanks very much to Court TV's Tim Sullivan for sharing his time. And thanks to those of you who came out tonight with such good questions.

Pardon me while I roll some credits....
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www.courttv.com/onair/shows/mugshots/indepth/mcveigh.html
And thats the link for some pretty extensive background on this case.
There is a pretty long video on there of a militia meeting which is interesting.
In case you ever wondered what they talk about at a militia meeting.

ichatwithu2 asks: Where is Tim Sullivan writing from?
ctv_will: He was just sitting next to me here at CTV HQ in NYC.
He was at the memorial site a couple weeks ago though.
There was a question about that but I lost it in the list.
Ok, I'm taking off too.
Thanks to all who came out tonight.
Our next chat is tomorrow at 8pET with Las Vegas Sun reporter Jeff German-- we'll be talking about the Binion trial that CTV is covering right now.
Until then, fear simple answers.
This chat has ended, you may go in peace. :)