ctv_will: Welcome to Court TV Online chats.
We're going to be talking about David Koresh and Waco with perhaps the most knowledgeable guest on the subject.
The guest is David Thibodeau.
He was a friend of Koresh, and a Davidian, and he was in the compound when the FBI attacked.
He is one of only 9 who escaped.
His wife and daughter were not so fortunate, they died in the attack.
Right now CTV is airing a documentary on the event.
I've been watching it, and is seems a little better balanced than that ambush at Waco movie, which a lot of people are really offended by.
Something that I never realized about Koresh was that he was a musician. He wrote all kinds of rock songs.
Our guest, David Thibodeau, was his drummer.

bobcranberry asks: I can't get court tv in my town what should i do??
ctv_will: That's too bad. You can write to your cable provider, or you can get Direct TV, or
you can log onto www.courttv.com/video
that has a webcast, but you know what webcasts are like, so that's up to you.

In just a bit we're going to be talking about the events in Waco.
What happened there? Do you think there's a big FBI cover up? Do you think Koresh and his group posed a threat tot he community?

I do know that one of his songs, "Madman in Waco" is on the CTV web site
www.courttv.com
there's a link there for the special Waco page there, and part of that is an audio stream.
And I'm going to ask him those child abuse questions too, don't worry.
Personally I'm not a big fan of the FBI in this case, but I'm going to try to get some tough questoins in as well in this chat.
If for no other reason than to dispell the myths (or at least present a different set of myths) LOL!
For a while there things were looking kind of grim of Reno and her boys in black.
There was that secret video tape that came out, and it looked like the whole thing might have happened with the approval of the President.
Then what happened?
How far does the cover up (if you think there was one) go?
Speaking of which, do you believe Koresh set those fires?
We'll be starting as soon as the new CTV Waco documentary is over.
IN fact, our guest is speaking right now inthat documentary.
It'll broadcast again tonight at 2 in the morning, and probably a million times over in the future, so don't worry if you missed it.
youcan also check out the cool background info they found to put on the CTV web site.
www.courttv.com then follow the links.
Our guest has a book: "A Place Called Waco"
and he used to have a web site.
I'll find out if he still has one.
I'm going to get him on the line right now... BRB
I've got him here onthe line.

Welcome David Thibodeau!
lanerlady_44 asks: David Thank you for coming to the chat...
David Thibodeau: Thank you.

daisypusher23 asks: What exactly is a Branch Davidian? is it like a Christina survivalist?
lanerlady_44 asks: How long were you with Koresh and your age when you joined his group, please?
lanerlady_44 asks: What was Koresh's goal for the group?
netpastor_2000 asks: I lived in Waco for many years, and lived very close to the compound. I visit there almost every time I go to Waco in talking to the lady who lives on the property and found some interesting doctrinal beliefs from her. Can you tell me how the Koresh group started and some about the foundations?
David Thibodeau: That would probably be Amo who you're referring to.
She was a squatter on the property and she was George Roden's wife.
Now, when there was the whole conflict with Roden and Koresh in '87, Roden was booted and she went with him, so she was never part of our group.
However, they had an understaninng of the original group's intentions.
I had no idea I was a Branch Davidian until 1993 when the ATF attacked.
I wan involed with David's group for two years, and we never introduced ourselves as Branch Davidians.
The name comes from the fact that we were a branch off of the Seventh Day Adventists who believed in the teachings of King David, the Psalms...
that David is an acronym for Messiah.
Amo would have had a lot of the foundatation that David came from, but his message was far beyond the foundation of what the original Branch Davidians taught.
What David taught was that the three prophets before him that lived at Mr. Carmel built on a foundation and they talked of one that would come with an understanding of the entire bible- more specifically
an understanding and a revelation of the 7 seals.
Not only from revelation, but harmonizing and showing those seals from all the prophets and all of the apostles- the harmonization of the entire book. That's what David did.
I was with him for two years, I met him when I was 22 or 21, and I met him in Hollywood and started to play drums with him and was invited to Mt. Carmel for two weeks for something called Passover.
Which was one of the festival seasons of the scripture.
And I got my first serious understanding/studies with David revolving around those 7 seals, and that took about two weeks of consistent studies to see his truth.
It was the most intense intellectual time of my life.

starboy_65559_1999 asks: Was Koresh really crazy or just controlling?
Cybersnake_98 asks: so was koresh really insane?
mushroom18f asks: When were you abducted?
David Thibodeau: LOL! No, I wasn't abducted.
Everone was there willingly.
Most of the people who were there came from seminary schools.
People who had spent their money to study the scripture.
They all told me the same thing, that they learned more from David Koresh for free in the matter of one or two studies, than they learned their whole lives studying on their own and going to schools.
When you're the government and you have a place surrounded, and you have a political agenda to fulfill, It's very easy to demonize someone and convince many.
What I would say is that everyone says we were brainwashed, but what took several people in some cases years of studying with David to come to an understanding that they wanted to be there, took
the govt 51 days to lie and brainwash the entire world.
Senator Henry Clay in 1893 said, "The devices of power and its minions are the same in all races and in all ages. It marks its victim and denounces it, exciting the public hatred to conceal its own abuses and encroachments."
Another analogy, anyone who has read Animal Farm should understand the structure of power.
In that book, the pigs represented the power structure, and all of the animals were subjugated under the pigs authority.
Whenever the smarter farm animals would question the pigs' authority, the sheep (or, as I like to say, the sheeple) would break into the mantra "four legs good, two legs bad" and the whole farm
would repeat this over and over again, and the challenge to the authority would disappear.
And what did we hear for 51 days? "Feds good, Branch Davidians bad."
And who got to speak to the public from our side side? the government controlled the press, so we didn't get a chance.
In the documentary we just saw, the tape that was recorded inside during the seige that showed everyone inside to be very rational, was suppressed from the public by the media and the FBI, and they said--
in the justice department report, it said that the FBI withheld the tape because it was believed that the tape would provoke sympathy for the Davididans.
So in reading between the lines, they couldn't have gotten away with what they got away with had they released that tape.
The American public wouldn't have allowed it. That's what they were scared of and that's why no one saw that tape until just recently.

crystal_96792 asks: where are we today with this
daisypusher23 asks: Are you suing the FBI?
jchutch34_1999 asks: EVERYONE WHO WAS IN JAIL ARE THAY OUT NOW
David Thibodeau: I was held as a material witness for less than a week, never indicted, and released in my parents custody.
A lot of other people weren't indicted as well.
A lot of people like to say that I was working with the government and that's how I got out of it, but truth be told, the only investigators I ever spoke to directly after the seige was the grand jury.
And I did that without immunity because I felt I had nothing to hide.
Yes we are suing.
There is a problem with this though.
The judge that is seeing the civil case, his name is Judge Walter Smith Jr. is the same judge that handled the criminal trial and gave 11 of my friends 5 to 40 years on a weapons violation that the jury threw out.
Head jury foreperson Sarah Bain was and is consistently on our side, and was very upset with the judge's decision and she said that the jury felt that they were in a corner and they also felt that the wrong people were on trial.
That it should have been some of the raid commanders and some of the government officials that should have been on trial, and not the Davidians.
With that said, there are still 7 people, Davidians, friends of mine, that are in jail, most for 40 years, and despite the fact that Sarah Bain is doing everything she can, and peop,e like
Alan Stone are pushing for their release, they're still rotting in jail.
Fortunately, we just found out the other day that the Supreme Court is going to hear their case.
And we're very thankful for that.
These people should not be in jail, they are not criminals.
The reason I'm saying this is that I know it to be true, and I am concerned for every American whose rights have been violated, and I have the firm belief that if this country is going to keep on a Constitutional foundataion,
and keep the power balanced, then law enforcement officials should not be above the law but should be held accountable when they commit a crime.
They take an oath to serve us, and if they violate that oath they should go to jail like you or me.
They're just people too.
Look at what's happening in Los Angeles with the 20 cops that have just lost their jobs for lying on the stand, murdering and putting innocent people in jail with 4 convictions already overtuned because of their lies.
And none of these officers have had charges pressed against them, they've just lost their jobs. They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and if they're not, that's the biggest part of the problem.

cumonover_69_00 asks: were any of his songs ever published and if not will they ever be
David Thibodeau: No, and probably no.
Actually, yes, I believe "Madman in Waco" is published.
But that was before my time.
Nothing that I played on was published.

cumonover_69_00 asks: I feel that if Koresh did set the fires he was trying to protect his followers from people who wouldn't understand
lanerlady_44 asks: Did Koresh start the fire inside---please explain how was it started.
David Thibodeau: I personally did not see how the fire started.
None of the survivors that I have spoken to know how the fire started for sure.
They all claim that they had nothing to do with the fire starting. However...
we have three pyrotechnic devices that were found in the evidence lockers, and the pictures indicate that they were all found at the origins of the fire.
Which of course, directly controverts what the government has said for the last 6 1/2 years.
Also, there are several explosions that we've seen on the infrared video tape, two of which occurred minutes before the fire at the back of the building where the media was not allowed, at
precisely one of the areas where one of the fires begins.
This has never been accounted for.
Anyone on this chat who would like to see this evidence can go to Blockbuster and rent "Waco, the Rules of Engagement" and the newest documentary which I've just seen, which is excellent "Waco, a New Revelation."
You can also order them, I have copies available. You can call 877-WHY-WACO

ctv_will: Do you have a web site?
David Thibodeau: www.aplacecalledwaco.com is down right now,
but I'll have it fixed by the end of the week.
That's why I gave the 877 number.

AnAllusion asks: One of the reasons for movement on the part of the FBI, if I remember correctly, had to do with child abuse in the compound. Is this a total lie or was there a problem?
daisypusher23 asks: What made the FBI focus on Koresh anyway?
andycalifornia1999 asks: Was Koresh molesting his followers' underage daughters?
David Thibodeau: Child abuse are state issues, and they are issues that the state dealt with, and in the Waco paper-- after the authorities came out, David opened the door for them and we were given a clean bill of health, and the state dropped their case.
The federal government used this as their chief demonization tactic to justify the actions that they knew they had to cover up due to their unconstitutionality.
The two years that I was there, I never saw kids being beaten or abused.
However, the parents did discipline their children, and they disciplined them by spanking, and the kids were always asked "did they do something wrong" and they generally only got spanked if they
did something to hurt themselves or others.
When the child would admit to the offense, the parent would give the child 5 or 6 swats on the butt with a paddle. Then they would be hugged and go about their business.
If David ever witnessed a parent hitting a kid out of anger- not a controlled situation-- then he would become very angry at the parent.
Of course, as I discuss very intimately in my book "A Place Called Waco," David's main downfall was the fact that he did have several wives
and that some of them were very young.
It does need to be understood, however, that under Texas law, with parental consent, people can marry at 14 years of age.
I'm not saying I like that law, but I'm saying that is a Texas law, and if it's something that people feel strongly about, that upsets them, then they should work to change the law.

andycalifornia1999 asks: Why didn't the parents just surrender peacefully and fight in court, like civilized people?
David Thibodeau: That is the most difficult question for me to address- the issue of surrendering-- because it's very psychologically
complicated.
If you read the book, or see the videos, you'll get a far deeper understanding of that question, but I'll try to elaborate a little.
About half way through the seige, the government protocol changed.
When people would exit the building, to get water, or to bury the dogs or whatever, the FBI would throw flash bang grenades at us.
The FBI told us that if anyone was seen exiting the building, that person would be dealt with, and all the while, the FBI in the press conference was saying, no one was coming out.
When you see a tank run over your car, run over your boat, and run over and destroy your personal property about 5 yards in front of your building, you don't much feel like leaving and surrendering to that authority.
When you see grown FBI agents drive by on a tank and flip you the bird and pull their pants down and moon you, you don't much feel like going out to those people.
When the FBI negotiators promise you that they will or will not do something and the tactical commanders come in and do the exact opposite, then you lose all faith in those on the other side of the fence.
I want it to be known here that from Feb 28th on, when they came in shooting, some people did fire back, but it was not an ambush, it was in self defense, and after that my friends on the inside
showed incredible restraint in never firing a shot, or making it a course of action toward the FBI. However, the FBI through the press made it seem like we went gunning for them.

d_a_n__ asks: in your opinion, do you find that people support or are horrified by the government's action at waco?
David Thibodeau: Well, my experience has been in the past, that those who supported our position, those that were concerned about the constitutional rights that were violated were the only ones that had the gaul to approach us.
No one tried to change my point of view, other than blasting me for being some kind of freak.
Now I think a lot has turned around because of all the evidence we have that shows the government was absolutely, constitutionally, irrevocably, out of control.
I think now because of all the documented evidence, and because of my book "A Place Called Waco" people are coming around and for the first time in I think the majority's case, they're seeing the truth of what really took place and
the funny thing to me is that for the last 6 1/2 years, all that me and my friends ever wanted was for everything to be laid out on the table so that people could make up their own minds.
The evidence supported us, but the propaganda didn't support us.
The evidence is what is supposed to be important under our legal system. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

hansen484 asks: looking back , would you change anything to alter the out come?wol
David Thibodeau: If I could I would.
I'm not really sure what I would do because the government held the cards.
We pleaded with them to have the 60 minutes crew come in and tape the evidence so we would be assured that it would be on film before we turned it over to the FBI.
Of course, my greatest regret is that so many of the children that I came to love died. However, the area that the children were in was under government control at the back of the building and we have over 68 rounds of fully automatic weapons fire on the FLIR (forawd looking infra red) tape being fired in the very direction of the area where the children were.
That distrubs be me greatly. That's the one I lose sleep over.

ctv_will: Any comments to say in closing?
David Thibodeau: The only thing that I ask, I don't care what you think about me, well, I do, but you know how that goes....
I just ask that people reserve their judgment until they've completely seen the evidence I've talked about here tonight.
Then come see me and tell me how bad or how deceived I've been.
But I think it's unfair for the finger pointers who don't know or haven't seen the evidence to sit in judgment.

ctv_will: Thanks very much Mr. Thibodeau for taking this time with us.
David Thibodeau: Thank you very much. I really appreciate this.
If you give me a call in about a week, I'll let you know when the site is back up and we can get this transcript linked there.
ctv_will: Sure, no prob.
David Thibodeau: Thanks.
ctv_will: Thanks to those of you who came with questions.
I tried to ask as many as I could, as you saw by the fact that I was submitting them in clumps, but there are tons back here.
For those of you who missed any of the chat, I'll have the transcript posted at the CTV talk page www.courttv.com/talk as soon as I get my lousy typos fixed.

lanerlady_44 asks: Hey, Will who is next....and why not make the event 2 hours long???
ctv_will: I would love to make these longer.
Even though my butt is melted to my chair at this point. :( But David didn't have all night to spend with us.
There are certainly enough questions back here to go for a while.
I tried to get to as many tough ones as I could.
We did the child abuse issue.
And who started the fire,
and why didn't they surrender.
And I presented the accusations that it was a cult.

dcbice99 asks: what was the web sight again?
ctv_will: David's is www.aplacecalledwaco.com
that's the title of his book.
For the background stuff that CTV has, just go to www.courttv.com and follow the links.
I think the actual like is something like www.courttv.com/onair/shows/mugshots/episodes/koresh.html

dwzx9r asks: It was said that yall fired first on the fbi, and yall say they fired first, we will never know who is telling the truth
ctv_will: There is a lot of evidence and video that may actually show who is telling the truth.
Personally, since the FBI has been sitting on that evidence hoping no one will look at it, I suspect it doesn't make them look very good.

xshweppsx asks: Is it true that that psychos withh was only 12 yrs old
ctv_will: I assume that what you're asking is if it's true that Koresh's wife was 12.
Actually, Ithink she was 14.
What I never realized was that it's legal to marry in Texas at the age of 14 with parental consent.
yeesh.
How come a bigger deal isn't made of that?

Janet_L asks: This was an interesting session, any follow up?
ctv_will: Well, there are suits pending in court.
And the appeals of the Davidians who were jailed on gun charges are coming to the Supreme Court.
CTV has a pretty good relationship with Mr. Thibodeau and some of the other Waco folks, including some of the FBI people, so
when they come back into the news, we'll definitely have someone back.

lanerlady_44 asks: Peerhaps you could select questions that were not addressed, mail them to David and have him post the answers on his site....
ctv_will: That's not a bad idea, although I'm sure he'll have a FAQ section on his site.
Part of the trouble is that he's probably answered all the questions in his book and on all the videos that are out that he recommended.
People want immediate answers though, so "read the book orsee the video" isn't something they want to hear.
I should point out that I didn't say "buy the book" CTV isn't a book seller.
Borrow it from your library.

waco1993 asks: have you spoken with the PRISONERS????
ctv_will: Apparently David has.
He is convinced they will be freed on appeal.

lanerlady_44 asks: Will do you know who the Davidians lawyers are???
ctv_will: I don't, but he did say the name of the judge, so I could probably find out.

dwzx9r asks: why did yall need a 50 cal machine gun????
ctv_will: I wish we had gotten to more of the "why the guns?" questions, but we just didn't have time.
the documentary CTV just showed made it sound like they were an investment because Koresh knew they'd be outlawed.
They weren't actually using the arsenal they had amassed until the FBI was actually in the compound shooting everyone.
That makes it kind of tough to say that the arsenal was there for them to start a war or fight the FBI.
I'm not sure, but I think the guns were legal as well.
That was the other point in the video, that who cares why they have guns? Guns are legal, and they're not killing anyone, so whose business is it?
It's sort of like the 14 year old wife issue. If you don't like it, change the law.

derek07_99 asks: hi my name is derek, my dad is a JP in texas , in jasper county, he was recently told at a meeting with the former justice of the peace in waco that koresh had many sexual realtionships with young children in the com pound . is that really true
mightysub asks: But Korash didnt marry her
ctv_will: Mighty, he did marry one of them.
but derek, you're sort of right.
That means they could have been as young as 14.
But it makes his crime bigomy, not child abuse or molestation (in Texas at least).

jessicamarie302 asks: DO U THINK DAVID AND MANSON HAVE ANYTHING IN COMMEN
ctv_will: I'm sure there are some similarities, but mostly they were very different.
I've heard Koresh talking and preaching, and he sounds like you're basic bible thumper.
Manson was a clear lunatic when he spoke/speaks.
And Koresh didn't preach violence (even if he did have guns around).
Manson told his people to go out and kill to help bring helter skelter about.

derek07_99 asks: do you think court tv should have been used in the killing death of james byrd jr
ctv_will: I'm not quite sure what you mean by the way you've phrased that question.
Do I think CTV should have been in the court live?
Yes.
I'm curious whether you think CTV did any damage in bringing all that attention to your town.
or did it bring light to a previously unaddressed problem.
I know that case has stained the name of Jasper. I thought of it as soon as you said you were from there.
That will be hard for the citizens of jasper to deal with.

yogoodboy asks: Do you think Koresh was a prophet of the Christian God or a false prophet?
yogoodboy asks: Do you think the Davidians are the only chosen group to be rapture?
ctv_will: That was the first thing I had Mr. Thibodeau talk about in the chat.
I didn't really understand his answer, but from what I understand, they saw Koresh as a prophet.
Previous prophets has anticipated his ability to unify or "harmonize" the contents of the entire bible.
It wasn't really about rapture so much as teaching.
I think they thought Koresh was some kind of divine teacher.
This is all probably better explained in the book.
Like I said, I'm not real big on religions.

dwzx9r asks: most kids were found in the basement
ctv_will: David disagrees with you dwz.
He said that they were mostly in the back of the building.
What he said doesn't fit with a lot of the things you've submitted.

lanerlady_44 asks: Will where can we see the documentary??
ctv_will: It was just on CTV from 7 to 8
The ones that he recommended during the chat though can be rented at Blockbuster.
CTV is re-showign their documentary at 2am ET I think.
It will doubtless repeat a million times in the future though.
they tried to make it sort of liek a biography of Koresh.
I had never realized how musical he was.
He was a closet rock star LOL!
Who isn't?

lorisslilaty asks: But, that "scary bible babble" really was the most important subjet for them. All that bible believes (that really were not biblical) made them act that way. Am I wrong?
ctv_will: I'm not sure what you mean by "act that way" but I think the general answer is yes.
Even the sex with other women part had some biblical origin. Something about Koresh needing to father 24 kids to fulfill the prophesey or something.
Apparently, it was very "utilitarian" sex he had with the women.

bmac82048 asks: Was everyone afraid to leave the compound? Were you?
ctv_will: The way he described it, they were definitely afraid to leave the compound.
He even talked about how eventually when they would step out of the compound to bury their dogs (this is pretty gross I think)
they FBI would throw flash grenades at them.
I guess their dogs died during the seige.

lanerlady_44 asks: Thanks for your time, Will, and good night...
ctv_will: Thanks landerlady. I should be going too.
Pardon me while I run a few credits....
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Until next time, fear simple answers.

This chat has ended, you may go in peace. :)