U.S. v. Kaczynski
Trial Transcripts
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1
1 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA
2 MONDAY, JANUARY 5, 1998, 8:02 A.M.
3 -- oOo --
4 (The proceedings continue.)
5 (The following discussion was had ex parte and in
6 camera.)
7 THE COURT: I'd like defense counsel to state your
8 appearance for the record. And then the record can reflect
9 that in addition to the individuals that will be named by
10 defense counsel, my courtroom deputy clerk is here with us in
11 my chambers, along with United States marshal personnel.
12 MR. DENVIR: Quin Denvir, Judy Clarke and Gary Sowards
13 for Mr. Kaczynski. And Mr. Kaczynski's present.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 Go ahead, Mr. Kaczynski.
16 THE DEFENDANT: Now, I'm not an attorney and I'm not
17 sure what the formalities are here, but I do not want any of
18 what follows to constitute a waiver of any part of my
19 attorney-client privilege.
20 Of course, I will be relating things that have passed
21 between me and my attorney, and I would hope that will be the
22 case.
23 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
24 representation matters.]
25 THE COURT: I want to get defense counsel's input on
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 procedure as to if you have ideas about how to proceed and
2 looking at Mr. Kaczynski's concerns. And if I need to
3 elaborate on what I'm seeking, I will do that.
4 MR. DENVIR: We were not aware that we would be having
5 this hearing, so we have not had an opportunity to discuss
6 it. Could we just have a moment to see if we have any
7 thoughts in that regard, about procedure?
8 MS. CLARKE: Unless the Court has some thoughts about
9 procedure.
10 MR. DENVIR: That would be fine.
11 THE COURT: Well, let me talk to Mr. Kaczynski for a
12 moment then before you meet on that.
13 What is your goal, Mr. Kaczynski, your ultimate goal as
14 far as Mr. Serra is concerned?
15 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
16 representation matters.]
17 (Pause in the proceeding.)
18 THE COURT: There are basically perhaps a couple of
19 issues. One issue is a -- what you have indicated is a
20 communication issue; and the other issue is a representation
21 issue focused on a change of counsel, possible change of
22 counsel, at this stage of the proceeding.
23 The latter issue is a public issue. The former issue,
24 in my opinion, is not a public issue. The question is at what
25 point, if we do go public with the other issue -- we may not
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 have to. I have an idea, but I hate to give my idea without
2 getting input from defense counsel. But I will, if you want
3 me to do that.
4 MR. DENVIR: We would, Your Honor.
5 MS. CLARKE: Please.
6 THE COURT: You would.
7 I'm not clear as to my authority in doing what I'm
8 thinking about doing. But what I think I should do is maybe
9 appoint another lawyer to assist Mr. Kaczynski with what he
10 has characterized as conflict-type issues. I'm saying that in
11 front of you. And then that way he would have a lawyer to
12 communicate with the Court on those type of issues. He could
13 communicate either personally or through a lawyer. And then
14 we would have to discuss the other issue publicly. I don't
15 foresee that the communications that Mr. Kaczynski has just
16 related should be communications that should cause a breakdown
17 in the attorney-client-relationship.
18 MR. DENVIR: It may be, though, Your Honor, to
19 Mr. Kaczynski it has caused that or could cause that if it's
20 confirmed. I think that's what he may be conveying to you.
21 I'm not sure.
22 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
23 representation matters.]
24 MR. DENVIR: Your Honor, one thing that I think
25 Mr. Kaczynski has said is that he would like to know whether
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 Mr. Serra would in fact be available to represent him, and the
2 Court might consider having -- calling Mr. Serra or having us
3 call him to see if he could make himself available on short
4 notice to resolve that question for Mr. Kaczynski. And I
5 guess that also could resolve the question of what he heard
6 from his staff -- this whole question -- I don't know if
7 that's any help either, seeing if Mr. Serra is available and
8 wants to meet with Mr. Kaczynski to deal with whatever this
9 communication question is and the question of continued --
10 possible representation.
11 THE COURT: Do you want me to communicate with
12 Mr. Serra's office, Mr. Kaczynski, as your attorney has
13 indicated?
14 THE DEFENDANT: I think that would be a very good idea.
15 MR. DENVIR: Would you like that? Would that be
16 helpful?
17 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, it would.
18 THE COURT: (Telephone conversation off the record.)
19 MR. DENVIR: Can I tell you something, Judge? I don't
20 think his office opens until 9:15. When we've tried to call
21 before -- you can try, but we just wanted to alert you.
22 THE COURT: I've just been informed by Mr. Denvir that
23 Mr. Serra's office may not open until 9:15. So I'm going to
24 want to see if there's a pager number that we can use if his
25 office is, in fact, not open.
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1 THE COURT: (Telephone conversation off the record.)
2 (Discussion off the record between Mr. Denvir and
3 Ms. Clarke.)
4 THE COURT: (Telephone conversation off the record.)
5 (Discussion off the record between Mr. Denvir and
6 Mr. Kaczynski.)
7 THE COURT: It appears that you were correct,
8 Mr. Denvir. His office doesn't open until around
9 9:00 o'clock. The message center that receives messages for
10 the office doesn't have a pager number or any other means of
11 communicating with the people in the office. We could
12 probably communicate with people in the office as quick as the
13 message center. Perhaps the only exception would be that if
14 the office calls the message center upon arrival, then there
15 would be a quicker access to the office if we left a message
16 with the message center.
17 MR. DENVIR: The only thing I could suggest, Your Honor,
18 if it would move up, is I know the names of some of the people
19 in our office. I suppose we could just use our phone and see
20 if they have a way of reaching Mr. Serra. When we tried to
21 reach Mr. Serra before, we were told he did not have a phone.
22 It may be difficult to reach him even at 9:00, but I could
23 see. But I could call a couple people if I could find their
24 home numbers. I would hope I could. That's the only thing I
25 could think of that could move things along at all.
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 THE COURT: What is your idea as to what would occur
2 should we reach Mr. Serra?
3 MS. CLARKE: Either Tony Serra could come over and meet
4 with Ted and decide whether he could take over the case, or
5 the Court could -- I'm thinking, and I don't know how Ted
6 feels about it, that maybe the Court is right about it,
7 appointing another lawyer to talk to Mr. Serra and talk to Ted
8 and try to straighten out that communication difficulty that
9 seems to be today's problem.
10 And, you know, I hate to suggest it but it seems to me,
11 given the state of our affairs right now, maybe we need to
12 take a couple days and see if the Court can find a very
13 skilled and experienced practitioner who can get involved on
14 this and put it on hold. It may not be resolved by a
15 telephone call with Mr. Serra. It may take someone to talk to
16 Mr. Serra and to talk to Ted.
17 THE DEFENDANT: It's not clear to me, Your Honor, how
18 that would be more advantageous than me talking to Mr. Serra
19 directly.
20 MS. CLARKE: It would just depend on whether he's
21 available.
22 THE DEFENDANT: I see. In that case, I
23 think Ms. Clarke's idea is good and I would agree.
24 MR. DENVIR: I think without going into a lot of detail
25 about it, I think that what you've termed the communication
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 problem may be a much deeper one that goes into the
2 representation problem. I think Mr. Kaczynski's feelings may
3 be that there's a much more fundamental breakdown in the
4 attorney-client relationship. I'm not sure of that and --
5 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
6 MR. DENVIR: But it's more than just -- you've broken it
7 into two questions, and I think that they may be very much
8 joined in his mind.
9 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
10 representation matters.]
11 THE COURT: You have fine lawyers. I've seen a lot of
12 lawyers appear in front of me in criminal cases. It's almost
13 impossible for me as a jurist not to focus on the level of
14 attorney skill when a criminal defendant's liberty is at
15 stake, and I am very mindful of it. Lawyers might not know
16 that, but it is an absolute fact.
17 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor, I do not question my
18 attorneys' abilities.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
21 representation matters.]
22 THE COURT: I wonder if we shouldn't focus on the
23 communication issue even further. We need to go public with
24 the other issue. We'll have to be somewhat careful as we go
25 public with the other issue. And let me assuage any concerns
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 you may have, Mr. Kaczynski, because one of the opening
2 statements you made to me at the beginning of this hearing is
3 you wanted to inform me that it was your hope that when you
4 share an attorney-client communications that they wouldn't be
5 made public. And to the extent I can provide you assurance
6 under law, I will do my best to keep what I construe to be
7 attorney-client communications private.
8 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you.
9 THE COURT: But the question as to whether or not
10 there'll be a change of counsel, that question in the abstract
11 is a public issue. And we would have to go public with that
12 issue at some point in time, because the Government would have
13 an opinion as to that particular issue.
14 MR. DENVIR: Could I say something on that, Your Honor?
15 I would hope that if it did go public, the fact that he
16 would want a change of counsel would be the public part. The
17 reasons seem to me to be so intertwined with attorney-client
18 issues and the Government would really have no say in that;
19 really that's something the Court would deal with, the fact of
20 a request for change of counsel, would that occur outside of
21 the Court, how we'd deal with it -- but the reasons to me seem
22 to be the type of attorney-client reasons that the Government
23 should have no access to. If it's a dividing line I'm
24 suggesting that, at least.
25 THE COURT: I understand your position, and conceptually
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1 I agree with you.
2 I'm now wondering whether I should communicate with you
3 separately. I don't want to communicate with Mr. Kaczynski
4 separately from counsel. I want counsel to be present when I
5 communicate with Mr. Kaczynski.
6 MR. DENVIR: Although we have no problem with that, Your
7 Honor, if you felt there was any advantage to it in resolving
8 matters.
9 THE COURT: I don't see any advantage to it, because
10 Mr. Kaczynski doesn't appear to have difficulties
11 communicating with me with counsel present. Is that correct?
12 THE DEFENDANT: That's correct.
13 THE COURT: I'm wondering if there's an advantage to
14 communicating with counsel separately. And if not, then I can
15 proceed with something else.
16 MR. DENVIR: Would there be a particular area the Court
17 would want to discuss with us?
18 THE DEFENDANT: I have no objection if you want to.
19 THE COURT: They may not see a need to doing it either.
20 MR. DENVIR: I don't think there's any particular area
21 that we feel that we need to address without Mr. Kaczynski
22 here, unless the Court had some thought of an area that
23 might -- that we should consider.
24 THE COURT: Fine.
25 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 representation matters.]
2 THE COURT: Let me interrupt you. I'm now going to talk
3 to my deputy clerk, because it is clear we're not going to be
4 able to proceed at least before 9:30. Does everyone agree?
5 MR. DENVIR: Absolutely.
6 THE DEFENDANT: (Nods head up and down.) Right.
7 THE COURT: Would you tell the Government and the people
8 in the courtroom that we will not proceed before 9:30. Let
9 the jury know that a matter has come up that we are
10 discussing. Tell them that I'm sorry for the delay, that
11 these things sometimes occur in cases, and that we will
12 probably not proceed before 9:30.
13 (The clerk left chambers.)
14 MS. CLARKE: Could I grab some notes from counsel table
15 and be right back.
16 THE COURT: Sure.
17 (Ms. Clarke left chambers.)
18 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
19 representation matters.]
20 THE COURT: Let me ask you a question. Do you have any
21 problems if I call a lawyer right now?
22 MR. DENVIR: No.
23 THE COURT: I am thinking about appointing another
24 lawyer.
25 MR. DENVIR: I think it would be very helpful. I think
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 Ted would like that.
2 THE DEFENDANT: I think that would be good.
3 (The judge left chambers.)
4 MR. DENVIR: You feel better about that? And that
5 doesn't foreclose -- it would just give you someone . . .
6 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
7 (Pause in the proceeding.)
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SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 THE COURT: I have called a lawyer so that I have the
2 option of appointing another lawyer to assist Mr. Kaczynski in
3 some of the areas that could be construed as areas where he
4 has a different opinion than his present counsel. I'm not
5 clear that I am required to do that, although there is a case
6 that seems to suggest that a judge should at least consider
7 that approach. The lawyer I've called is Bob Holley.
8 Any problems with that lawyer?
9 MS. CLARKE: The only information that I can give the
10 Court is that Mr. Holley has been retained by one of the news
11 stations to make comments, and he's been a running commentator
12 on the TV throughout the jury selection and yesterday on one
13 of the national news programs. It simply may be awkward. I
14 only tell the Court that. I don't know what that means. And
15 we have talked to him on a number of occasions.
16 MR. DENVIR: We have, your Honor. Nothing of great
17 moment, but at various times he's talked to us because he was
18 doing that media type work.
19 THE COURT: Have you talked to Kevin Clymo?
20 MR. DENVIR: No. And the other two lawyers that come to
21 mind that we've had no contact with would be Clyde Blackmon
22 and Chris Wing. And they have had no media contact that we
23 know of, and none of us have said a word to either one of
24 them. And I haven't seen them quoted in the media. They're
25 among the small group who hasn't been quoted.
KELLY O'HALLORAN, CSR 6660 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 THE COURT: Okay. Let me keep the reporter present.
2 (Whereupon, the Judge left chambers.)
3 (Judge present.)
4 THE COURT: Okay. Kevin Clymo is coming over. In light
5 of what you said about Bob Holley, I'm trying to reach him
6 through my staff so that he can do other things. I think I'm
7 supposed to evaluate the problem that's presented by a
8 criminal defendant, yourself, Mr. Kaczynski, and then not only
9 ask the defendant questions but ask his counsel questions.
10 I haven't asked your lawyers questions yet because your
11 lawyers have suggested that perhaps I should communicate with
12 Mr. Serra's office. And I'm assuming that when I communicate
13 with Mr. Serra's office, it's possible that this matter could
14 be resolved and we could proceed on with the trial. And so
15 that's why I'm taking this approach.
16 THE DEFENDANT: I don't think it's likely that the
17 matter can be resolved that easily. My lawyers have suggested
18 that I should make it clear to you what I want. And what I'm
19 looking for is a change of counsel.
20 THE COURT: That presents a public issue. I'm going to
21 analyze the law. I have that on my computer system concerning
22 that issue.
23 (Whereupon, the Judge left chambers.)
24 (Judge present.)
25 THE COURT: I just spoke to a secretary in Tony Serra's
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1 office. He apparently has more than one secretary. She could
2 not verify whether or not he's even going to come into the
3 office. She thinks it's possible that he's on vacation right
4 now and couldn't give me details about that.
5 Well, a request for a change of counsel at this stage of
6 the proceeding is a public issue, and so we would have to go
7 public with that question. The government I'm certain will
8 have some input on the question. The question is whether we
9 need to consider matters in this private session before we go
10 public.
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KELLY O'HALLORAN, CSR 6660 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
2 representation matters.]
3 THE COURT: The case cited by the Government -- I don't
4 know if you had a chance to read that case, was a 1997
5 decision, I believe, dealt with a sentencing question. It
6 involved a dispute between a criminal defendant and his
7 lawyer, and the judge covered the dispute during a proceeding
8 and asked the criminal defendant and the lawyer matters that
9 ended up with them being in contradiction with each other on
10 particular points. And the Ninth Circuit in that decision --
11 although maybe it's somewhat fact bound, but it opined at the
12 moment the judge conducted the proceeding in such a way that
13 unearthed a conflict in the positions of the criminal
14 defendant and his lawyer, well, then, as to the area of the
15 conflict, the lawyer was basically not representing the
16 criminal defendant and the criminal defendant was proceeding
17 pro se as to those matters.
18 I'm only relating what's on my mind. I recall reading
19 the decision; I was somewhat surprised by it because there is
20 often what could be characterized as contradictions between a
21 criminal defendant and his or her client and, you don't
22 appoint a lawyer in those situations. You sort of address
23 them and they get resolved and the Court makes findings
24 sometimes and then you go forward.
25 But because of the circuit's holding that the lawyer --
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1 as I understand it, in essence didn't represent the client
2 during the sentencing phase, I'm thinking that I need to ask
3 questions of the lawyers concerning the things that
4 Mr. Kaczynski is telling me, and I'm assuming that a conflict
5 could surface. I don't know if that's true or not. But I
6 thought that at that moment that's when Mr. Kaczynski should
7 have another lawyer present.
8 MR. DENVIR: We would agree, Your Honor. You certainly
9 have the discretion to appoint another attorney for
10 Mr. Kaczynski to advise him on this concern he has with his
11 present client [sic], and if there is that type of
12 proceedings, we would urge you to do that, particularly given
13 this is a capital case. He would like to have --
14 THE DEFENDANT: (Nods head up and down.)
15 MR. DENVIR: He would be more comfortable having an
16 attorney who could speak to for him as needed.
17 THE COURT: And in doing what I'm doing, Mr. Kaczynski,
18 I'm not indicating to you that I think you should switch
19 lawyers. I think you have very competent lawyers representing
20 you. But you've got some concerns that we're going to have to
21 address, and I'm just trying to create the appropriate vehicle
22 to address those concerns.
23 So my thought, as far as procedure is concerned, is that
24 we will first address those concerns in camera, ex parte. And
25 then we will probably have to go into a public proceeding.
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 Maybe we'll get the matters resolved ex parte in camera and
2 when we go to the public proceeding Mr. Kaczynski will in fact
3 opt to be represented by his present counsel. But if that's
4 not what he tells me at the end of the proceeding, then we
5 will have to address the matter publicly and allow the
6 Government an opportunity to give its opinion.
7 So with that in mind, we're going to have to wait a few
8 minutes until Mr. Clymo appears. I don't mind leaving if you
9 want to communicate with each other about other matters.
10 THE DEFENDANT: I don't think -- I can't think of
11 anything that I would want to say to my lawyers at the moment.
12 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
13 representation matters.]
14 (Discussion off the record between the clerk and the
15 Court.)
16 MR. SOWARDS: You might want to use this one
17 (indicating), Your Honor. The bottom lines on some of these
18 are a bit light. You can probably read them, but --
19 THE COURT: I should file this in the action. What's
20 the lawyers' opinion?
21 MS. CLARKE: Under seal.
22 THE COURT: Under seal?
23 MR. DENVIR: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Can I give you this Xerox copy and I take
25 the original?
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, sir. (Accepts document.)
2 (Pause in the proceeding.)
3 (Discussion off the record between Mr. Sowards and the
4 defendant.)
5 THE COURT: This is just a blank sheet, I presume
6 (indicating)?
7 THE DEFENDANT: That, Your Honor, was a spacer that I
8 used to indicate the point where I was to begin reading.
9 THE COURT: I see.
10 (Pause in the proceeding.)
11 (The clerk returned to chambers.)
12 (Discussion off the record between the clerk and the
13 Court.)
14 (Pause in the proceeding.)
15 THE COURT: Bring him in.
16 MS. CLARKE: Mr. Kaczynski had something (indicating)
17 for the Court.
18 THE DEFENDANT: I had something that may be just a wild
19 conjecture only, but . . .
20 THE COURT: (Accepts document.)
21 Good morning, Mr. Clymo. Thank you for joining us.
22 MR. CLYMO: Sorry to take so long.
23 THE COURT: Sure.
24 MR. CLYMO: Mr. Kaczynski?
25 THE DEFENDANT: Nice to meet you.
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 THE COURT: Let me tell you what I understand to be
2 happening, and I trust you will be able to assist.
3 There's a Ninth Circuit case called U.S. V. Gonzalez,
4 113 F.3d 1036. It's a 1997 decision at page 1029. The Court
5 states in pertinent part the following: "Whatever conflict
6 may have existed between Gonzalez and his attorney going into
7 the sentencing hearing, the district court clearly created one
8 when he questioned Gonzalez' attorney in open court with
9 Gonzalez present. When the Court invited Smith to contradict
10 his client and to undermine his veracity, Gonzalez in effect
11 was left to fend for himself without representation by
12 counsel. Consequently, Gonzalez was denied effective
13 assistance at the sentencing hearing."
14 I'm not clear in my mind that this law applies to this
15 situation, but as a matter of consideration, I raised the
16 question with defense counsel. And the defense counsel
17 indicated that it probably would be prudent to assume the law
18 applies and to invite a lawyer to assist Mr. Kaczynski should
19 Mr. Kaczynski need assistance.
20 MR. CLYMO: Okay.
21 THE COURT: My understanding is that at this juncture
22 Mr. Kaczynski contemplates and perhaps has already made the
23 request for the opportunity to have substituted counsel.
24 MR. CLYMO: Mm-hmm.
25 THE COURT: When a Court is faced with such a request,
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1 the Court is required to evaluate the extent of the conflict
2 between the defendant and his counsel. That's something I
3 think I should do in chambers. The Government may have a
4 different opinion and they may ask when we are in the
5 courtroom to have aspects of the conflict surfaced.
6 We need not reach that precise issue at this moment but
7 we do have to discuss it later. And so I'm now at the point
8 where I'm going to try to crystallize the conflict. I will be
9 asking his counsel questions and I wanted to have someone to
10 represent Mr. Kaczynski should there be contradictions. Any
11 problem with the approach?
12 MR. DENVIR: No, Your Honor.
13 I was going to suggest if Mr. Clymo could see what
14 Mr. Kaczynski had written on the subject and maybe have a
15 moment to talk to him, it might help him.
16 MR. CLYMO: I was going to ask the Court if I could take
17 a moment to consult with Mr. Kaczynski.
18 MR. DENVIR: He's also written something that might help
19 you. He's given it to the Court.
20 MR. CLYMO: (Accepts document.)
21 MS. CLARKE: And, Your Honor, there was an additional
22 note that was provided to the Court by Mr. Kaczynski.
23 THE COURT: Oh. (Examines document.)
24 MR. CLYMO: (Examines document.)
25 (Discussion off the record between the Court and a U.S.
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 marshal.)
2 (Discussion off the record among the U.S. marshals.)
3 THE COURT: I think I'm going to interrupt you just for
4 a moment because, Mr. Clymo, it may be advantageous to you to
5 read this in another room.
6 MR. CLYMO: I'm okay reading it here, Judge. That's not
7 a problem. I will probably want to talk to Mr. Kaczynski,
8 though, regarding the content of the letter.
9 THE COURT: I've made arrangements with the marshal to
10 allow you and Kaczynski to go to another room.
11 MR. CLYMO: Okay.
12 THE COURT: And if you want to do that now -- but before
13 you do, I want to put something on the record -- but if you
14 want to do that now, you can do that so if there are moments
15 as you're reading when you want to ask Mr. Kaczynski
16 questions, you can do that. And if you want a post note, I
17 have post notes available.
18 MR. CLYMO: So do I.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Let me put this on the record.
20 Mr. Kaczynski did give me a statement --
21 [Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
22 representation matters.]
23 THE COURT: All right. The following message was
24 delivered from Mr. Serra's office. I'm going to spell the
25 names, because the record should be clear as to the author of
SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 the message. Zenia, Z-e-n-i-a, G-i-l-g, an attorney from
2 Tony Serra's office, called at 9:40 a.m. She said Mr. Serra
3 is in Tunia, T-u-n-i-a, and they're not sure exactly when
4 he'll be back -- today, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
5 She knows that he was interested in the case but had a
6 conflict with the Federal Defender's Office and unequivocally
7 withdrew his offer to represent Mr. Kaczynski because of the
8 conflict. If you need to speak to Ms. Gilg, the number is
9 415-435-9183.
10 That's the message.
11 MR. CLYMO: Okay. Now, I would like to take advantage
12 of your offer to speak with Mr. Kaczynski and review the
13 letter.
14 THE COURT: It's granted.
15 (Discussion off the record between Mr. Denvir and
16 Mr. Clymo.)
17 MR. CLYMO: Thirty minutes, judge?
18 THE COURT: That's fine.
19 MR. DENVIR: We will reconvene at 10:30?
20 THE COURT: Right, but I'm going to tell the other trial
21 participants that we're not going to be meeting until 11:00.
22 I can't imagine covering everything that we have to cover
23 before that time.
24 (Time noted: 10:04 a.m.)
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1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
3 -- oOo --
4 BEFORE THE HONORABLE GARLAND E. BURRELL, JR., JUDGE
5 -- oOo --
6
7 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
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8 Plaintiff, )
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9 vs. ) No. Cr. S-96-259 GEB
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10 THEODORE JOHN KACZYNSKI, )
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11 Defendant. )
______________________________)
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15 REPORTERS' DAILY TRANSCRIPT
16 JURY TRIAL
17 IN CAMERA DISCUSSION (REDACTED)
18 pp. 1-43
19 MONDAY, JANUARY 5, 1998
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Reported by: SUSAN VAUGHAN, CSR No. 9673
25 KELLY O'HALLORAN, CSR No. 6660
DENNIS McKINNON, CSR No. 2223
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2 For Plaintiff UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:
3 (NO APPEARANCE)
4
For the Defendant:
5
OFFICE OF THE FEDERAL DEFENDER
6 801 "K" Street, Suite 1024
Sacramento, CA 95814
7 By: QUIN A. DENVIR
Federal Defender, Eastern District of California
8 JUDY CLARKE
Executive Director, Federal Defenders of
9 Eastern Washington and Idaho
10 STERNBERG, SOWARDS & LAURENCE
604 Mission St., 9th floor
11 San Francisco, CA 94105
BY: GARY D. SOWARDS
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1 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that all
2 participants in the proceeding have returned to my
3 chambers.
4 Would you state your appearance for the
5 record.
6 MR. WAKS: Dennis Waks.
7 THE COURT: Okay. He has also joined us.
8 Budd Johnson, a Deputy United States Marshal,
9 has indicated to me that perhaps I should state on
10 the record, so that Mr. Kaczynski is provided some
11 assurance, that all the proceedings being conducted
12 ex parte, which simply means without the opposing
13 party being present -- and in that situation we're
14 referencing the government -- and in camera, which
15 means that the public has been excluded, is to
16 remain confidential.
17 The United States Marshal is assisting the
18 Court, and they are here for that very purpose, just
19 to assist the Court, and they understand that all
20 aspects of this proceeding are to be kept in
21 confidence, except to the extent that the judge
22 authorizes the release of any part thereof.
23 MR. CLYMO: Your Honor, if I might ask the
24 Court's indulgence. Since you brought me in this
25 morning, and with quite a challenge, I've spent
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
24
1 quite a bit of time, over an hour, maybe an hour and
2 half, talking with Mr. Kaczynski, and it's clear
3 that what's going on here is that there are
4 communication problems among the group of
5 Mr. Kaczynski and his lawyers. I do believe we made
6 some progress on those communication issues.
7 There are a couple of things that -- a couple
8 of questions that Mr. Kaczynski has asked me that
9 I'm not able to answer with some degree of assurance
10 without taking some time to do some research. One
11 is with regard to information that's been
12 communicated, and another is with regard to a legal
13 issue.
14 I would ask the Court to allow me an
15 opportunity to have Mr. Kaczynski taken back to the
16 jail where I can spend some -- this is going to take
17 a while -- where I can spend some time talking with
18 him, and also Ms. Clarke and Mr. Denvir, and to
19 spend some time in the library to answer the legal
20 questions, some time on the phone to answer the
21 factual question.
22 And I would ask the Court -- I know you had a
23 jury waiting, and I'm very sensitive of that. I
24 would ask the Court to allow me today and tomorrow
25 to do that and then to be able to report back to the
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
25
1 Court, because I think we've made significant
2 progress, and I view -- well, I'll leave it at that.
3 THE COURT: Is there still a pending request
4 to substitute counsel?
5 MR. CLYMO: With Mr. Serra.
6 THE DEFENDANT: No, there's not. Certainly
7 not with Mr. Serra. As to whether there might be a
8 request to change some other counsel, that's still
9 an open question. I would not say there is a
10 pending question of change of counsel yet.
11 THE COURT: Can you elaborate on that, sir? I
12 can let Mr. Clymo elaborate now. I brought him in
13 so that you would have a lawyer to assist you
14 express your personal opinions about matters to the
15 extent that there could be a conflict with your
16 existing counsel.
17 THE DEFENDANT: Probably it best if I answer
18 this question myself, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Sure.
20 (Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
21 representation matters.)
22 However, it as yet remains an open question
23 whether I feel I'm still able to continue with my
24 present counsel, and if I feel that I cannot, then,
25 of course, the question might arise of whether I
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
26
1 would either change counsel or even conceivably
2 represent myself.
3 THE COURT: I think we need to go public at
4 least with what he just stated at the very end of
5 his communication to me, and that is that --
6 MR. CLYMO: If I might interrupt. And I
7 apologize for interrupting, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: That's all right.
9 MR. CLYMO: In my conversations with
10 Mr. Kaczynski, I do not get the impression that he
11 has a desire to represent himself and go pro per.
12 That's not what I pick up from my conversations with
13 Mr. Kaczynski. I believe the issue is a
14 communication issue (Redaction for attorney-client
15 privilege and representation matters.) and I think
16 the question would be if Mr. Kaczynski goes forward
17 with his lawyers or states that he has a conflict
18 with those lawyers.
19 Is that --
20 THE DEFENDANT: I would agree with that, yes.
21 I would agree with that, yes.
22 MR. CLYMO: So I don't think that
23 Mr. Kaczynski is in a position right now where he is
24 really contemplating going pro per. So I disagree
25 with the Court's feeling. I think this is something
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
27
1 that should remain in chambers. I think this is
2 something that, you know, creates ultimate prejudice
3 to Mr. Kaczynski if there's publicity about it, for
4 instance. I think these are issues that should be
5 resolved in camera, outside the presence of the
6 prosecution totally.
7 THE DEFENDANT: I would agree, Your Honor,
8 that the possibility of change of representation or
9 representing myself is still very, very nebulous.
10 There's no definite intention there. It's just a
11 possibility that may arise after present discussions
12 continue. So I don't think change of counsel is yet
13 the issue, though it may become an issue.
14 Is that --
15 MR. CLYMO: I'm very optimistic that the
16 communication issue can be, if not accepted, then
17 understood, and that it can -- I think that can be
18 resolved. I'm optimistic it can be resolved.
19 I should point out for the record that in
20 addition to my individual contact with
21 Mr. Kaczynski, I asked Ms. Clarke to come in, and
22 the three of us sat and talked for a significant
23 period of time. And I am very hopeful that the
24 communication issue can be resolved.
25 THE COURT: I've got two questions. I have to
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 probe further concerning the need to go public with
2 some aspect of what has occurred, because the
3 government, I am certain, wants to know something
4 about what we're doing.
5 The other question I have to raise -- I don't
6 mean to insult you. I said this before,
7 Mr. Kaczynski. As a judge, I always have to raise
8 this question, that's the question of competency to
9 stand trial.
10 (Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
11 representation matters.)
12 MR. CLYMO: Yeah.
13 MR. CLYMO: I would ask the Court's indulgence
14 to just keep it in chambers, come back Wednesday,
15 blame it on me, that I came in out of the blue and
16 don't know anything about what's going on and need
17 time to talk with Mr. Kaczynski.
18 MR. DENVIR: I think the Court needs to
19 explain just the -- just a statement along the lines
20 maybe of what you use when you redacted certain
21 parts of the transcripts that were released.
22 Is that what you were thinking? That
23 Mr. Kaczynski has addressed attorney-client concerns
24 to the Court, and that those proceedings are ongoing
25 and hope to be resolved by tomorrow.
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 MS. CLARKE: By Wednesday morning.
2 MR. CLYMO: Wednesday morning.
3 MR. DENVIR: By Wednesday morning.
4 MR. CLYMO: I think that would be fair and
5 protect Mr. Kaczynski's right to a fair trial.
6 There would be no unfair, prejudicial information
7 disseminated regarding mental issues or competence
8 issues or attorney's conflict issues or any
9 indication to the public that Mr. Kaczynski is
10 somehow being recalcitrant to the process or a
11 problem.
12 I just would hate to have the label attached
13 to this out in the public that Mr. Kaczynski has
14 created a problem. It seems we can best avoid that
15 by just sitting tight until Wednesday morning with a
16 minimum statement, if any.
17 THE COURT: I think I'm going to have to go
18 into the courtroom and invite government counsel,
19 and I'll have to say something on the record and
20 provide the government with an opportunity to state
21 its position.
22 Before I do that, maybe what I will do is I'll
23 have you and Mr. Kaczynski, Mr. Clymo, go into the
24 other room. I want to talk to the defense counsel,
25 the other defense counsel.
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 MR. CLYMO: All right.
2 (Defendant exits chambers.)
3 MR. CLYMO: I don't perceive at this point I
4 have been appointed to do anything. I just perceive
5 that I've been asked as an officer of the court to
6 talk with Mr. Kaczynski.
7 THE COURT: I'm going to appoint you for the
8 purposes of handling everything you've handled and
9 everything that you need to handle. The Ninth
10 Circuit case that I cited earlier, I think it was
11 the Gonzalez case, is part of the reason why I
12 appointed Mr. Kaczynski a lawyer.
13 There's another reason. I wasn't certain that
14 Mr. Kaczynski and his present counsel -- not you,
15 Mr. Clymo, but his other counsel would be in
16 agreement on his competency, and so I also bore in
17 mind the Ninth Circuit decision of Mason vs Vasquez,
18 which is 5 F.3d 1220, a 1993 decision.
19 I think that case stood for the proposition --
20 and I'm not really clear as to whether or not the
21 Ninth Circuit simply approved what the district
22 court did or whether the Ninth Circuit said
23 something about the decision, but I followed that
24 case when it was being decided both at the district
25 court level and at the Ninth Circuit level.
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
31
1 My vague recollection is that it was a case in
2 which a defendant wanted to die, and his counsel,
3 appointed counsel, or maybe retained counsel, I
4 don't recall the status of the attorney --
5 MR. CLYMO: Pro bono, I think.
6 THE COURT: Was he?
7 MR. CLYMO: I believe so.
8 THE COURT: I think that he had at least one
9 lawyer that was against his decision.
10 MR. CLYMO: Yes.
11 THE COURT: And then the judge appointed
12 another lawyer to represent his stated position, and
13 that all occurred during a competency hearing. So I
14 assumed that if Mr. Kaczynski's present lawyers took
15 a particular position on that question --
16 I'm with you, Mr. Clymo. I've been watching
17 Mr. Kaczynski. I have listened to him during the
18 proceedings, and I believe he's competent. But I
19 don't know about his current lawyers. I mean, they
20 have --
21 MR. CLYMO: I think they're both competent
22 too.
23 THE COURT: I'm not talking about their
24 competency.
25 MR. DENVIR: Well, I would be glad to have a
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
32
1 proceeding on that.
2 THE COURT: I have nothing but confidence as
3 far as his lawyers are concerned. But I need to
4 talk to them about it, and that's what I'm going to
5 talk to them about.
6 (Mr. Clymo exits chambers.)
7 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that
8 Mr. Clymo left the chambers, and Mr. Kaczynski is
9 personally out of the chambers.
10 I wanted to chat with you about that issue,
11 because it's my discernment that you had previously
12 indicated that if Mr. Kaczynski took a position that
13 frustrated the defense you were going to assert on
14 his behalf, that maybe that would indicate the need
15 for a competency hearing. And I'm assuming, based
16 on everything I heard, that Mr. Kaczynski may not
17 agree with the defense you are asserting -- at least
18 you contemplate asserting, at least in the guilt and
19 not guilty phase of the proceeding. So I wanted to
20 get your views on it, because when I communicate
21 with the government, I need to know what to
22 communicate and I need to know if this is an issue.
23 MR. DENVIR: Well, I think from what I heard,
24 that is something we wanted to discuss with
25 Mr. Kaczynski and Mr. Clymo. Again, there's the
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
33
1 possibility, in my mind at least, of a need for a
2 competency hearing, but I'm not in a position, I
3 don't think we are, to tell the court that it's
4 necessary at this time. We may know better after we
5 explore the communication questions and these other
6 questions with Mr. Clymo and Mr. Kaczynski to advise
7 you in that regard.
8 I think one thing that sounded like it would
9 be discussed would be what defense would be pursued
10 at the guilt phase and perhaps what would be done at
11 the penalty phase. Those seem to be items which we
12 intend to be discussing with Mr. Kaczynski and Mr.
13 Clymo in the next day or so.
14 I think by the time we come to the end of that
15 discussion, we may have a better idea of what kind
16 of problem there's going to be, if there is one.
17 THE COURT: I know you were kind enough,
18 Mr. Denvir, to communicate with Mr. Clymo to explain
19 to him the need that I have to make a public
20 statement about some aspect of the proceeding.
21 Did you envision the public statement saying
22 anything about competency?
23 MR. DENVIR: No, Your Honor.
24 MS. CLARKE: Not at this point.
25 MR. DENVIR: I envisioned the court saying
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
34
1 something along the lines that these proceedings are
2 ex parte and in camera dealing with attorney-client
3 matters, and that the Court, you know, hopes that
4 they will be resolved tomorrow, and almost nothing
5 more than that.
6 I think that tells everyone -- in light of
7 what the Court has previously released from the
8 earlier proceedings and the correspondence and other
9 things, that gives a fair statement to everybody
10 about what is being -- we kind of been through this
11 and litigated it before.
12 I think that's a fair statement on that
13 factual basis. Both the government and the public
14 will understand the general nature of what's being
15 dealt with, and I think those questions of change of
16 counsel, self-representation, competency, are all
17 hypothetical at this time until we conclude this
18 discussion with Mr. Clymo and Mr. Kaczynski.
19 THE COURT: How about the fact that I've
20 appointed Mr. Clymo, should that also remain in
21 camera?
22 MR. DENVIR: I would think for the moment,
23 Your Honor, until the Court -- the Court may later
24 wish to make that matter public. But I don't see
25 any reason why it should be made public at this
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
35
1 point, because it's intertwined in with this
2 attorney-client matter, which hopefully by tomorrow
3 or Monday or Wednesday morning, whenever it is, we
4 will know where we stand on a more concrete basis in
5 terms of is there a problem and the exact nature of
6 the problem and what Mr. Kaczynski wants.
7 Mr. Clymo, I think, is trying to explore with
8 Mr. Kaczynski and with his present counsel what is
9 the problem, can it be resolved. If it can't be
10 resolved, what is he asking the Court to do.
11 That's what I understand he sees his role as.
12 THE COURT: The government, I'm confident,
13 will ask questions. What you indicated I should
14 state I don't think will be satisfactory. The
15 government will probably tell us that they have
16 witnesses lined up, they're ready to proceed with
17 this trial, and I'm basically indicating to it that
18 we don't know when the trial can actually begin for
19 sure, we think the trial could possibly begin
20 Wednesday, but even that is somewhat speculative.
21 MS. CLARKE: Well, perhaps, Your Honor -- and
22 I just throw this out for an idea. Maybe you could
23 set a date for Mr. Clymo to report back to the
24 Court, maybe tomorrow afternoon, at which time the
25 Court might then be in a position to call in the
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
36
1 government and the public and say where it is. That
2 would give him some time, hopefully enough time, to
3 explore this matter with Mr. Kaczynski and then
4 report back to the Court, as I say, what is the
5 nature of the problem, can it be resolved with
6 present counsel, and if not, what is Mr. Kaczynski
7 asking the Court to do.
8 I think that's the only way I can see sorting
9 it out. I think the Court appointing Mr. Clymo
10 would be very beneficial in trying to get that
11 spelled out so the Court will know exactly what it
12 has to deal with.
13 That would give him until Wednesday morning to
14 report back. I think he's got a lot to do. And he
15 believed he was making progress in the two hours
16 that he had.
17 And it seems to me that if the Court advises
18 the government we'll be back Wednesday morning for
19 status and/or beginning of trial, that would be
20 appropriate.
21 THE COURT: You're indicating, Ms. Clarke,
22 that I need to give Mr. Clymo and Mr. Kaczynski a
23 little bit more time, and I'm assuming what you're
24 suggesting is that I should have the jury appear in
25 the morning on Wednesday.
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
37
1 MS. CLARKE: I would think so, because the
2 case may go forward on Wednesday and it may not go
3 forward on Wednesday, and they could simply be
4 discharged if it does not or sent home or whatever
5 happens with them.
6 I suppose if Mr. Clymo has some resolution
7 earlier than Wednesday morning he could communicate
8 that to the Court. I just felt like that was his
9 request for the amount of time that he felt like he
10 needed, and it is an unusual position for him to be
11 in. I know we all as lawyers have been there. But
12 if he felt like that kind of time was necessary, I
13 think we should accommodate that.
14 MR. DENVIR: Should we check with Mr. Clymo
15 and see, or maybe you want to call him in, about how
16 much time he needs?
17 THE COURT: You want to bring them both back?
18 MR. DENVIR: We would like him to have enough
19 time. It is a complicated matter. But he may have
20 a better sense of what he can do or when he can at
21 least report back to the Court where he is.
22 (Mr. Clymo and the defendant present.)
23 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that Mr.
24 Clymo and Mr. Kaczynski have joined us in chambers.
25 I'm trying to figure out what to tell the
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
38
1 public and the government when I take the bench.
2 I've asked my deputy clerk to tell the government
3 that I'm probably going to take the bench at 12:30,
4 which gives us a few minutes. But it's obvious that
5 they can't start the proceeding without me, so we
6 can delay.
7 MS. CLARKE: Your Honor, I never felt that way
8 myself.
9 THE COURT: You may be in for a surprise.
10 I'm not certain what the government will say
11 if I simply tell the government, which I'm inclined
12 to do, but I'm open to your suggestions, that the
13 proceedings that were conducted ex parte and in
14 camera, commencing at the time when we were
15 scheduled to commence trial, are proceedings that we
16 hope to resolve. I need to give a date, and that's
17 where you come in, Mr. Clymo.
18 MR. CLYMO: Then I would be able to report
19 back to you by, say, close of business tomorrow to
20 confirm that.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Do you contemplate the
22 possibility of the trial actually commencing
23 Wednesday morning at 8:00 a.m. with the jury
24 present, et cetera? Is that a possibility?
25 MR. CLYMO: I hesitate to answer that
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
39
1 question. I hesitate to answer it because if I say
2 yes, I'm caught between a rock and a hard spot.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 MR. CLYMO: And I haven't had enough time to
5 sit down in a comfortable environment -- although
6 the room was physically comfortable. I mean with a
7 sense of confidentiality and just sit down and talk
8 it out and see exactly what the bottom line is.
9 I just don't want to promise the Court that.
10 I mean, if Mr. Kaczynski went pro per, I guess
11 theoretically he would start on Wednesday, although
12 I can't imagine that. But if there was a conflict
13 in representation that could not be resolved that
14 was presented to you so you made a decision whether
15 or not legally it was a conflict and it was your
16 determination it was a conflict, then I don't think
17 any lawyer could step in and address the jury
18 Wednesday morning.
19 Depends on how successful I think we are in
20 addressing the communication issues.
21 (Redaction for attorney-client privilege and
22 representation matters.)
23 THE COURT: It appears that we don't know if
24 the trial will be able to go forward on Wednesday.
25 MR. CLYMO: Is that fair?
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 THE DEFENDANT: That's fair, yes.
2 MR. CLYMO: I'm optimistic it would be able to
3 or I wouldn't ask the Court for ---- I mean, I would
4 just tell you right now this is it, it's blown up,
5 forget it.
6 THE COURT: Then perhaps I should give the
7 government that information and get the government's
8 input as to what we should do with the jury. I
9 think we can basically state that I've been provided
10 assurance by defense counsel that they are
11 optimistic the trial will be able to go forward on
12 Wednesday but we're not certain.
13 MR. CLYMO: Is that fair?
14 THE DEFENDANT: Sounds fair, yes.
15 THE COURT: But we will know on Wednesday the
16 status of this matter one way or the other.
17 MR. CLYMO: I think that's fair.
18 THE COURT: Okay. If you're able to mend the
19 relationship so that we can proceed, then there
20 would be no need for me to conduct other
21 proceedings.
22 MR. CLYMO: Exactly.
23 THE COURT: But if you can't, I need to
24 conduct other proceedings.
25 MR. CLYMO: Exactly.
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 THE COURT: Okay. All right. We'll go to the
2 courtroom.
3 MS. CLARKE: Thank you, Your Honor.
4 MR. CLYMO: Your Honor, I have a question.
5 With regard to these proceedings in open court, I
6 think it would be appropriate to continue to have
7 Ms. Clarke and Mr. Quin represent Mr. Kaczynski's
8 interests with the government in public on the
9 record.
10 Is that all right with you?
11 THE DEFENDANT: That's agreeable to me.
12 THE COURT: That means that you won't appear
13 in the courtroom, Mr. Clymo?
14 MR. CLYMO: I don't think I need to.
15 THE COURT: Fine.
16 THE DEFENDANT: May I ask a question?
17 MR. CLYMO: Unless the Court -- I really don't
18 think I need to. The limited role that you
19 appointed me for I don't think requires that at this
20 point.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 THE DEFENDANT: Basically, it's a question for
23 Mr. Clymo. You were going to come and speak to me
24 at the jail. When was this?
25 MR. CLYMO: This afternoon. They'll get you
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
42
1 back as quickly as possible.
2 THE DEFENDANT: In other words, we're going to
3 go back to the courtroom, and then at 1:00 o'clock
4 or -- I don't understand what's going to happen
5 next.
6 MR. CLYMO: We're going to be back in the
7 courtroom and a recess is going to continue until
8 Wednesday morning, and I will come over and see you
9 this afternoon, and then we'll make arrangements as
10 appropriate for Mr. Denvir and Ms. Clarke.
11 MS. CLARKE: And the marshal just advised they
12 will take him back as soon as possible.
13 Does Ted need to be in the courtroom for this
14 proceeding? It doesn't matter. However you want to
15 do it.
16 MR. CLYMO: What's your preference?
17 THE DEFENDANT: I just as soon go straight
18 back to the jail.
19 MR. CLYMO: I would ask to waive his presence
20 in the courtroom so I can get over to the jail and
21 talk to him.
22 THE COURT: I have a concern with the waiver.
23 I envision some opposition from the government. I
24 think --
25 THE DEFENDANT: If that's the case, Your
DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
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1 Honor, I'm perfectly willing to go back to the
2 courtroom.
3 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
4 MR. CLYMO: I will just duck out the side
5 here.
6 THE COURT: Fine. Mr. Clymo, thank you very
7 much for making an appearance on such a short
8 notice. If you take care of the paperwork, I'll
9 execute the appointment.
10 MR. CLYMO: Thank you.
11 ---oOo---
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DENNIS F. McKINNON, CSR No. 2223 -- (916) 446-1347
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